Since I started making units, my creative energies are kinda running wild and so I started making a scenario for a what I think is one of the most underestimated of the 20th century: The Vietnam War.

This thread is intended to be both a preview AND a discussion forum, as ideas, feedback and comments are always welcome.

VIETNAM WAR
CIVS:
North Vietnam*, Cambodia > Communist International Front (locked alliance)
South Vietnam/USA* > single civ
Laos > unaligned, low aggression

VICTORY CONDITION: Secure all Victory Points (1 per Vietnamese city).

SETTING It is July 1964. The Cold War is about to turn hot. After shaking off French Colonial rule, in the wake of the battle at Dien Bien Phu, the Socialist Viet Minh under the brilliant leadership of Ho Chi Minh seized power and established the Democratic Republic of Vietnam, in the North, with their capital in Hanoi. To the South, in Saigon,
the former regime consolidated and founded the pro-Western Republic of Vietnam.

Following the Truman Doctrine of Containment, the United States decided to support and back South Vietnam by sending military advisors to help train the armed forces of the young republic. In the face of an imminent invasion by North Vietnam, a small contingent of US Army Rangers was detached to Saigon while a US Navy carrier task force was sent to patrol the waters off the Vietnamese coast to provide necessary air cover.
After a North Vietnamese torpedo boat sinks the American destroyer USS Maddox in the Gulf of Tonkin, the US Government issues the Tonkin Gulf Resolution and decides to increase the American presence in Vietnam by sending a strong detachment of US Marines to assist the ARVN against the Communist North.

Playing as... NORTH VIETNAM
The North Vietnamese have several important advantages:
(1) They can muster a large number of experienced infantry (50% Veterans, 50% Elite). If they succeed in mobilizing these troops before the Americans can land the Marines, they might conquer the South without significant resistance.
(2) Due to the nature of a Communist Regime, war-weariness is not existant.
(3) With the help of Soviet, Chinese, East German and Czechoslovakian Military Advisors (available through the embassies of the respective countries), the North Vietnamese Armed Forces acquire a variety of units:
T-62 Main Battle Tank (Soviets, one every 8 turns)
MiG-21 Interceptor Aircraft (Chinese, one every 10 turns)
MiG-19* Fighter/Bomber Aircraft (East Germans, one every 9 turns)
Aero L-29 Delfin* Ground Attack Aircraft (Czechoslovaks, one every 9 turns).
(4) After Recruitment Posts are built in cities (up to 3, require Barracks), additional Viet Cong troopers are trained (one every 4 turns).

There are also a couple of disadvantages:
(1) In the beginning, the North Vietnamese Air Force only has a handful of outdated MiG-15's and MiG-17's, which are no match for the US Navy fighters (Corsair II, Phantom II and Crusader).
(2) Except for a number of sea-going torpedo boats, the North Vietnamese Navy is hardly a force to be reckoned with. Their lack of ocean-going vessels denies them the ability to strike the US Bases in the Philippines and Guam.

Initial order of battle:
(1) People's Army of Vietnam (PAVN):
40 PAVN Infantry Brigades stationed in cities along border to Laos and South Vietnam.
2 PAVN Infantry Brigades garrisoned in each city.
(2) Viet Cong:
6 Viet Cong Brigades deployed in various locations throughout South Vietnam.
6 Viet Cong Brigades stationed at 2 camps along the Ho Chi Minh Trail.
(3) People's Air Force of Vietnam (PAFVN):
3 MiG-15 Interceptor Aircraft
6 MiG-17* Interceptor Aircraft
4 An-2* Transport/Recon Aircraft
2 Il-28* Bomber Aircraft
1 An-36* Long-range Recon Aircraft
--> all stationed in Hanoi.
(4) People's Navy of Vietnam (PNVN):
12 Sampans (transport capability only)
8 Torpedo Boats (sea-going only)
4 Mi-6* ASW Helicopters (lethal sea)
--> all stationed in "Delta Sea Port City"

Buildings and Improvements:
Diplomatic Quarter
tech prereq: -
improvement prereq: -
cost: -
resources: -
--> already built in Hanoi.
Soviet Embassy
tech prereq: Communist International
improvement prereq: Diplomatic Quarter
cost:
resources:
Chinese Embassy
tech prereq: Communist International
improvement prereq: Diplomatic Quarter
cost:
resources:
East German Embassy
tech prereq: Communist International
improvement prereq: Diplomatic Quarter
cost:
resources:
Czechoslovakian Embassy
tech prereq: Communist International
improvement prereq: Diplomatic Quarter
cost:
resources:

Great Wonders:
Soviet Military Advisor:
tech prereq: Communist International
improvement prereq: Soviet Embassy
cost:
resources: -
effect: delivers 1 T-62 MBT every 8 turns
Chinese Military Advisor:
tech prereq: Communist International, Supersonic Flight
improvement prereq: Chinese Embassy
cost:
resources: -
effect: delivers 1 MiG-21 every 10 turns
East German Military Advisor:
tech prereq: Communist International
improvement prereq: East German Embassy
cost:
resources: -
effect: delivers 1 MiG-19 every 9 turns
Czechoslovakian Military Advisor:
tech prereq: Communist International
improvement prereq: Czechoslovakian Embassy
cost:
resources: -
effect: delivers 1 Aero L-29 Delfin every 9 turns

Small Wonders:
Communist Party Council:
tech prereq: Communist International
improvement prereq: -
cost:
resources: -
effect: makes 1 unhappy face content in all cities

Playing as... SOUTH VIETNAM/UNITED STATES
The Allies, South Vietnam/United States, have a few disadvantages:
(1) At the beginning of the war, the United States maintain only a small contigent of troops in Vietnam, stationed at the US Embassy in Saigon. A carrier task force in the South China Sea, including the carrier USS Independence, provides air cover and performs routine recon missions.
Far away, at Subic Bay Navy Base in Manila, Philippines, the US Marine Corps is ready to be deployed to Vietnam - at a moment's notice.
(2) South Vietnam's defense force, the Army of the Republic of Vietnam (ARVN) consists of a small number of inadequately trained infantry brigades (85% Concsripts, 15% Regulars) stationed in the cities (2 per city, 4 in Saigon).
(3) The South Vietnamese population is IN AWE of the North Vietnamese and is easily tempted to switch sides. City improvements will improve this situation somewhat. However, War Weariness will always be a serious problem.
On the other hand, if South Vietnam succeeds in resisting the Communist invasion and subversion long enough, until the Americans establish a significant military presence on the battlefield, the advantages of American technology and industrial output can help turn the tide.

Initial order of battle:
(1) Army of the Republic of Vietnam (ARVN):
2 Infantry Brigades per city, 4 in Saigon.
(2) Air Force of the Republic of Vietnam (AFRVN):
8 F8F Bearcat* Interceptor Aircraft, stationed in Saigon and Hue.
6 AT-28D Trojan* Ground Attack Aircraft, stationed in Saigon.
4 AT-6C Texan* Ground Attack Aircraft, stationed in Hue.
(3) US Army:
4 Army Ranger Brigades, stationed in Saigon.
(4) US Marine Corps:
40 Brigades, stationed at Subic Bay Navy Base, Manila, Philippines.
2 AH-1W Cobra Attack Helicopter, stationed in Saigon.
40 AH-1W Cobra Attack Helicopter, stationed at Clark AFB, Manila, Philippines.
16 UH-1 Huey Transport Helicopter, stationed at Clark AFB, Manila, Philippines.
(5) US Air Force:
24 A-1D Skyraider Ground Attack Aircraft, stationed at Clark AFB, Manila, Philippines.
24 F-4E Phantom II Fighter/Bomber Aircraft, stationed at Clark AFB, Manila, Philippines.
8 B-52 Stratofortress Bomber Aircraft, stationed at Guam AFB, Guam, Marianas.
4 F-105 Thunderchief Interceptor Aircraft, stationed at Guam AFB, Guam, Marianas.
4 C-130 Hercules Transport Aircraft, stationed at Guam AFB, Guam, Marianas.
4 A-26K Intruder, stationed at Guam AFB, Guam, Marianas.
(6) US Navy:
TBD

Just so you know, the aircraft in the above posts that bear an asterisk (*), are units I am making for this scenario - exclusively.

reserved for Playing as... Laos.

reserved for Playing as... Cambodia.

Having Cambodia in a looked alliance with the North seems odd. Maybe split it into Khmers Rouges and the Monarchy + Lon Nol regime?

Yeah... on Cambodia. I was racking my brain on how best to include the Khmer Rouge.
Your suggestion might work OK. Thx.

This is the North Aerican AT-28D Trojan, originally designed as a 2-seat trainer, it served as a quite successful ground attack aircraft in the South Vietnamese and Laotian air forces.
Shown here is the AFRVN version. I am making another version for Laos and might throw in - as a bonus - a US Marine Corps version.

Technical Specifications

Aircraft: North American AT-28D Trojan
Year: 1962
Type: trainer-attack
Manufacturer: North American Aviation
Engine: Wright R-1820-86 9 cyl. radial, air cooled
Power: 1445hp
Wingspan: 40ft 7in (12.37m)
Length: 32ft 9in (9.98m)
Height: 12ft 7in (3.84m)
Wing area: 268sq ft (24.90ml)
Max take-off weight: 8,250 lb (3,742 kg)
Empty weight: 6,420 lb (2,912 kg)
Max speed: 352mph at 18,000ft (566km/h at 5,490m)
Service ceiling: 37,000ft (11,280m)
Range: 1,200mi (1,93lkm)
Crew: 2
Load-armament: pods with GE minigun, 500 lb (bombs, rockets on six under-wing pylons)

THis mod could not be done with historic acurracy. But good job for trying.

THis mod could not be done with historic acurracy. But good job for trying.

Explain... cause I think within the framework of Civ... this scenario will be pretty accurate.

I started this 2-3 years ago, but after coming so close to completion twice, and each time the data-files corrupted - now I'm aiming for Civ4 - a month by month historical account from the perspectives, SV, DRV, USA, and the various factions across Laos and Cambodia.

There are certainly problems with guiding a historical similarity - particularly in Cambodia, for instance, as it was really only latter in the wider conflict, and not in 1964-65 that war broke out - the prince, for some time, managed to retain control on a tight-rope, until being deposed by a pro-American general - at which point he, and popular support tended toward the KR.

The major issue, which I never addressed, was how to restrict invasion - as I didn't want the KR invading Thailand, and the DRV invading Cambodia - to some degree this can be addressed via restricting movement - foot/wheeled restriction - but with the imposed choice as to which area of conflict to which you wish to restrict access - if only they'd added/separated movement on Standard/Landmark terrain.

One modder addressed this roughly by modelling only Vietnam - the remaining being 'ocean' - eg, Thailand removed = area 'ocean'.

Civ3's restriction on War/Peace and only a few locked alliances :cry:

The wider conflict was so complex that Civ3 hasn't a chance of modelling it - but a more limited representation certainly can be.

Go for it :goodjob:

If you want a helping hand, you could message me...

Just look at this (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=88991) scenario. Even if it wasn't fully accurate, I think the gameplay worked well.

I agree... Cambodia is probably the hardest to accurately represent in a Vietnam War scenario, for the obvious reasons stated by you guys. What "if"... they were practically neutral... a.k.a. unaligned and with a low aggression bonus? That's the way I am modeling Laos, BTW...

As fas as Thailand goes... I know in reality, Thailand was an important base for the US, but as far as I know they didn't really take part in the hostilities. Therefore, I left Thailand out of my scenario.

I agree... Cambodia is probably the hardest to accurately represent in a Vietnam War scenario, for the obvious reasons stated by you guys. What "if"... they were practically neutral... a.k.a. unaligned and with a low aggression bonus? That's the way I am modeling Laos, BTW...

As fas as Thailand goes... I know in reality, Thailand was an important base for the US, but as far as I know they didn't really take part in the hostilities. Therefore, I left Thailand out of my scenario.

At least 30,000 Thai 'volunteers' fought in Laos... That must be the equivalent of 2-3 Civ3 units? ;)

At least 30,000 Thai 'volunteers' fought in Laos... That must be the equivalent of 2-3 Civ3 units? ;)

Hmmmm.... well then I'll include these volunteers as generated by a Laotian-Thai wonder in Vientiane.

Oh and BTW.. here is my first shot at the map...

When I look at your map, I see you've included the Philippines and the Marianas. Then I suggest you could Have the USA as a separate civ, and let them have cities on the Marianas and on the Philippines. And you could maybe give them some auto-producing wonders so they have a continuous production of units, because I think it may be hard to produce many units on the islands.

Well... the one reason I didn't choose to have the US as a separate civ is because I want to be able to station US soldiers in Vietnamese cities without any restrictions.

And as far as resupplying US troops: yes, all US units can only be generated by Great Wonder Improvements, most of which are preplaced in the Philippines and Guam: Subic Bay Navy Bay, Corregidor Army Base, Clark Air Force Base, Guam Air Force Base.

This is going to be the initial fighter/interceptor aircraft for the People's Air Force of Viet Nam (a.k.a. North Vietnamese air force).

Specs:
Origin: USSR
Type: fighter-bomber
Max Speed: 617 kt / 711 mph
Max Range 1,980 km / 1,230 miles
Dimensions: span 9.63 m / 31 ft 7.1 in
length 11.26 m / 36ft 11.3 in
height 3.80 m / 12 ft 5.6 in
Weight: empty 3,930 kg / 8,664 lb
max. take-off 6,075 kg / 13,393 lb
Powerplant: one 3380-kg (7,452-lb) afterburning thrust Klimov VK-1 F turbojet
Armament: one 37-mm N-37D cannon with 40 rounds and two 23-mm NR-23 cannon with 80 rounds per gun; four (later six) underwing hardpoints for bombs and/or rocket launchers and, later in the type's life, two AA-2 'Atoll' AAMs; the inboard hardpoints were usually reserved for drop tanks

:p Explain... cause I think within the framework of Civ... this scenario will be pretty accurate.

well you see the vietnam war was done useing gurilla warfare that civ just dosnt support. if you had a group of vietcong shoot at you from a hut and then leave befor you got there you would kill a halph dozen people. this cant be done in civ. and the fact that territory was never gained or lost durring the war because of the gurilla warfare. the way that the US would bomb trails in laos and laos didnt go to war with them right away. and how the countless assasinations of south vietnamesse leaders. and finally it would be nenearly impossible to Simulate the hippies without haveing a huge map which then makes vietnam verry small. and finaly the fact that none of the south vietnameese cities produced anything and how the US didnt keep any captured land. also the bloody revoultons in laos and cambodia which were so influential in the war are nearly impossible to effect it at all.


so two and a halph finallies later I am done makeing my point. :p

AT-28 Trojan of the Laotian Air Force: