To Fanatics... hello! After lurking here, I thought a succession game was too good NOT to try, so folks from Realms Beyond Diablo are gathering for our first succession game. :egypt:

CharisGhandi Succession Game 1 - Random civ, opponents, Monarch diff.
Roaming barbarians, large archipelago land mass, rnd temp and age.
First player 25 turns, second player 20, third 15, then 10 after that.
No reload, either of turn, game or battle.

Current turn order: Charis, Sirian, Hocus, Jaffa, Skandranon, Cy. In the post immediately following you'll find a zip file with the saved game. To post your game when done, you need to zip it, and 'register' at this forum to enable posting. Sirian should respond "got it" within 24 hrs and post his end-of-turn-save within 48 hrs of THIS post. Good luck all!! :goodjob:
Non-writers may give a description of their turn in FAR less detail than I, although from Sirian I do expect a fully analytical and expertly written report! :lol:

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4000 B.C. (0) - Ghandi of the Indians perishes, and from his loins spring
Prime Minister Charis :king: , a Commercial yet Religious son with great
ambitions for his people and land. His slim corner of the world
looks simply wonderful, with two patches of sacred cows nearby,
on the coast, with an inland lake, and with hills and plains and
plenty of desert visible (for as you know, India is a hot land). There
seemed no better place, and no better time, than to found the great
city of Delhi right where he stood. A happy and hard worker, Venkat, was
sent forth to . For self-defense, CharisGhandi set about training a warrior.

What thoughts did he have as he surveyed the situation, and his
background? As a Religious nation, he knew Ceremonial burial, and
had the option for early and cheap temples. What would India be
without temples? An early one would be fitting, and would help our
sense of culture. (After Burial is Mysticism which allows The Oracle. On
a lower diff I might try for this, but don't think it likely wise here).
There would also be NO Anarchy later, if we chose to switch governments.
As a commercial people the Alphabet (the Devanagari script) was known to us.
Less direct advantages, but needed for Mathematics and Writing (Sanskrit).
As a Commercial nation, we get extra commerce bonus


The special unit of India is the War Elephat. At 4-3-2, replacing the
Knight, it's very hard hitting, a tough defender, AND fast. A *super*
unit. If we end up needing to fight, this WILL be the unit to aim for,
although it requires the 'optional' chivalry. (Did I mention they're
upgradeable to Cavalry?! Or that in reality, War Elephants were used to
defeat the Greeks?)

CharisGhandi noted that under despotism, he could gain no further
benefit from mining the cattle squares 2-2-0 (nor would the cows have
approved). The inland lake he astutely noted COULD be used to irrigate,
even though there was no river. This might be crucial with the desert
to the East (too early to tell for sure). Hoping that Delhi will become
a large and prosperous city, the worker starts to irrigate that desert land.

What to research? "Such a dilemna!?" His advisors told him many different
things. His trade advisor noted that bronze working would allow us to build
the Colossus (which the trade advisor also liked). The cultural advisor
stressed Mysicism, while the domestic advisor thought writing and philosophy
the best path. Since it also led to early construction, Bronze Working was chosen.

3850 B.C. (3) - A brave Warrior, the young Rama Krishnamurthy, agreed to scout out
the territory surrounding Delhi. CharisGandhi was tempted to train another warrior,
but thought that with bronze soon available, a Spearman would be much better.
So instead he chose the optimistic path of a Temple. It would no doubt be the first
one ever built on the planet, and it would make his countrymen proud!

3700 B.C. (6) - A hut was found by the brave Rama. Cautiously he approached. A
group of Mongols were there, and were impressed by the stealth of his
approach. They offered a contest -- if they could defeat Attilarik in a
wrestling match, they would train him! Rama knew no fear, and took the
challenge. When he won, they taught him "Warrior Code." So proud was Rama!
(Much better than a kick in the teeth from Barbarians anyway)

3600 B.C. (8) - Dyes were seen in the distance! Venkat would be dispatched there
as soon as he could, after building roads for the cattle to wander :)

3500 B.C. (10) - Our borders expand due to high culture! Oh wondrous day! :love:

3400 B.C. (12) - The great Temple to Ganesh was completed! Alas, with bronze
working still far off (duh, of course, it's very slow going early on), an
Archer was chosen for diversity, and for greater exploring.

3300 B.C. (14) - Rama was shocked and amazed to see a pretty young lady of
a foreign civilization. Jeanette was her name, and she represented the
nation of 'France.' (A HUGE burly warrior stood next to her). Alas, he
was smitten and likely got taken advantage of. She (and her leader, Joan d'Arc)
sought friendship and were impressed with our culture! So we traded Ceremonial
Burial and Warrior Code for Masonry and 10 gold.

3200 B.C. (16) - Srisu, the Archer, was trained, and CharisGhandi thought it
of VITAL importance to get about settling more cities with haste (especially)
having run into a Commercial and Industrious neighbor (perhaps a trade route
could be set up?!)


3000 B.C. (20) - Science was pushed a little to quicken the bronze research.
It was looking like we might be on the upper end of a triangle shaped
penninsula (or would it be a vast continent to the south? Gold was
found in the mountains to the east. Could sent the settler to the choke
point in the hills/mountains next to the gold, as a hill fortress... or
go to the southwest to the jungle dyes.

But wait!! No... off to the east, pass a very narrow pass in the mountains
was a land with a pair wheat squares, and grasslands! This had to be
settled immediately! This would be a gambit. Settling first at your far
expected boundary, and filling in gaps, rather than settling next to your
capitol, and going outward. But compared to the quality of land near Delhi,
this new land looked like a land of milk and honey!

2950 B.C. (21) - Hmm... the French found the dyes. Would they try to settle THIS
close to Delhi if I proceed with the wheatland gambit?? Such emotional turmoil!!
And it's so early yet in the game. It would be far too long before Dehli could
produce another settler... Gah... Well, we have friends in the area, and to
the bold go the spoils. Wheatland gambit it is! Settler Mumbai is sent East.

2590 B.C. (29) - The Civ3 time warp kicks in. Twenty five turns come and go,
and it hits 29. I had set in my mind, "end turn went second city founded",
and lost track of the turn. Rather than reply and break a different rule,
I pass on the torch here... (I promise no more over-turns in later rounds)
What happened in these years? Rama heads far East and finds the french came from
there, rather than south, as expected, and Venkat the archer goes south and
finds.... no one! Yet anyway. A fair amount of jungle. Here's the interesting
event though, in 2590. Settler finds himself right on the choke point, at
the location he plans to settle, and there is a barbarian RIGHT next to him!
In Civ 2 this would have meant city capture, but in Civ 3, your city
gets ransacked. So CharisGhandi founded Bombay right there, which
took over the barbarian tribe and netted 25 gold. One barbarian is left,
next to me, will surely ransack us next turn. Can we stop this?
No, but... we can trade that gold away before it gets stolen! Talk with the
French gets us Bronze Working for 30 gold. Then as a token of goodwill, I give
her 5 gold for free! :) (Rama! You smitten fool!) Parable of the shrewd
manager here -- that gold is toast next turn, let's get something from it! Obtaining Bronze Working lets us change production from Archer to Spearman too.

Thus ends the reign of CharisGhandi...

(What's that?? About time you say??! :eek: )

End of Charis turn 1, 2590 BC - RBD1 Succession Game,
Ghandi of the Indians. next up, Sirian, then Hocus, Jaffa, Skan, Cy.

-- Charis

Hail, my children. Harken unto the campfire, settle in your blankets, and pay heed to the history of the Age of the Whip and the Scythe. :hammer: For as the lineage of Wise King CharisGhandi fell into disrepute, a young farmer named Sirian did take up arms in the year 2590 BC and establish a new era. Coupe de tat. Out with the old, in with the new.

Sirian praised the divine wisdom of the line of CharisGhandi. He marked witness to the brilliance of the great leader, in training our warriors with the axe and then the bow. :viking: Peaceful relations were established with the alien French peoples, and our scouts did locate their homeland. Most brilliant of all, the bold stroke of ordering our settlers to the most distant ends of the earth, to secure the strategically vital Charis-Matic Pass through the rugged mountains, and the lush valley beyond where crops grow in abundance. This decision must surely shape the destiny of our people for all time. Setting to work building a modern road between our capital and the new settlement was set as a top priority -- the only way to accomplish such a monumental and wondrous task. :king:

However, upon consulting with the leaders of our ancient temple in Delhi, and through divine intervention, Sirian was able to determine the false prophecy. Surely it was the evil of smoking the Pungent Weed that brought delusions to the sons of Charis. :satan: Vile demons were loosed through the smoke, corrupting the minds of Charis's great grandsons. What other possible explanation could there be for ordering the massive irrigation of a useless tract of desert while our sacred cattle forage and scrounge on the dusty plains? :rolleyes: If Charis could only see what became of his sons! :crazyeyes:

The people rose in a huge swell against the corrupted King. They signed on to Sirian's banner, for indeed not a single man in the kingdom could speak against the wisdom of bringing water to the fields where our crops grow, instead of to desert lands to evaporate. Not even pride could explain those orders. :confused: It had to be the Pungent Weed. Sirian swept into power, ordered the retraining of the soldiers CharisGrandsontheMadWeedSmoker had ordered. We needed farmers, tillers, diggers, not spearmen. What use soldiers who have too little to eat? Who cannot even feed their women and children, needing to hoard what little food they have to keep up their fighting strength? The organizing of so many workers took an initial toll on our people, setting back their production, but within a few centuries, all the cattle fields were irrigated, and our people ate well. The younger children no longer starved, and as a result, we were more quickly able to train new warriors to the spear, as well as prepare another pilgrimage of settlers to venture forth.

Sirian wisely stayed the course with the orders of the true great leader, the original CharisGhandi, the First King. The road to Bombay was nearly completed during the Age of the Whip and Scythe. :) Our scouts pressed onward into distant lands. There was a brief tension with the French, as our warriors occupied lands the French wished to settle, delaying the founding of their city Lyons by several generations. They did eventually settle in the exact location they had originally wanted, as our troops pressed on in their explorations, but our truth keepers have written of this as a significant military victory without having had to shed any blood.

Continued...

Bombay had indeed been sacked by two armies of barbarians in the same span of years, at the very start of the era of Sirian. :mad: Orders were issued to train a contingent of warriors at the first opportunity, but many years passed before the city had a significant defending force. :o Our scholars have determined that blame for this attack falls not on the shoulders of Sirian, but on those of the Pungent Weed :smoke: and its effects on the latter Kings of the line of Charis. No further defeats at the hands of barbarians would be suffered by our people under the line of Sirian. Smoking of the Weed has now been outlawed.

Our military history during the age of the Whip was a tale of peace through strength. Our archer force explored what shall be called The Indian Subcontinent, and they came upon a minor tribe who agreed to pick up and serve our growing empire as paid warriors. (Apparently, fighting for us was preferable to starving to death, and they admired our rich culture). These conscripts have executed their duties faithfully, stationed atop the high ground overlooking the green valley south of the Endless Jungle.

The great expeditionary force sent out by the holy CharisGhandi's first Incarnation made contact with the sturdy Persian people, and through news and rumors (F11 Key) our leader Sirian has heard of the cities of London and Washington, and rumors about these strange folks as well.

The Persian people have undertaken a great project, the Pyramids. What this means, is not yet understood. Our people are still concerned with feeding themselves, not building huge monuments. We yearn to occupy the greener lands to our south, where fields of wheat grow, and schools of :fish: swim.

While Sirian at first scorned the building of roads "for the cattle to wander" (Weed-induced decision, we are told), it was later determined that these roads aided in the irrigation, and brought more commerce into the city. Paying to maintain the Temple was, well, costly. Our culture prosperred, but our treasury remained all but empty and we could not afford robust research. :(

Sirian changed not only the training of spearmen to farmers, but also the path of research from Iron Working to Pottery. (The wisdom of this decision will be left to future generations. Sirian was, after all, a farmer turned king, and he could not help but direct our civilization to improve its farming process at all levels). One fact of note: the French have developed Iron Working, so we may be able to trade them gold or other ideas for this knowledge, at a future date. After the discovery of Pottery, our people set out to find out about The Wheel. Perhaps we can trade that knowledge to the French, or at least improve our travel speed with the use of horse-drawn chariots. This, assuming we can locate enough horses. At this moment, we have not found any.

After the training of our irrigators, the sons of Sirian ordered a return to training spearmen. It is said that Sirian always supported the training of defenders for the city, but saw a more pressing need to be able to feed our people first. Once food was harvested in abundance from our farmlands, we trained a force of spearmen, set them to defend the city, and sent the warriors on to Bombay, to assist with defense and exploration there, on our border with France. The French Queen is said to be an exotic creature. :queen: We are not entirely sure yet whether we can trust her and her people. Sirian has issued a decree that our warriors should, at their earliest convenience, establish and maintain a garrison in the mountain passes, blocking all access of foreign invaders (peaceful or otherwise) from our heartland. This in accord with the original vision of the First King, to establish our border and defend it against all comers. No other nation can be allowed to settle their people on our subcontinent! :arrow:

Continued...

Once the spearmen were entrenched in Delhi, another settler group was organized and dispatched to found a new city in the jungle, near the supplies of dyes. Our archers accompanied them, and our irrigators are working tirelessly to bring water to their parched farmlands. Our subcontinent has now been explored, and the line of Sirian has, after great study, discerned and laid out the best locations for future Indian settlements.

http://sirian.warpcore.org/civ3/succession/rbd-india-1750bc.jpg

Note the white dots on this map of India. These locations have been determined to be ideal for future settlements. If this plan is followed, virtually every square unit of land will be utilized one day in the distant future, with none of our cities crowding out any others, and all on the coast, to make use of harbors and ships. The white dot near the French is in jeopardy of falling under French control. Future kings will have to deal with these problems. Before the line passed away with the death of the last of the Sirians, it was urged on future leaders to act quickly to settle more lands near the French while we still can, using people from Bombay. As soon as we have enough people to man the two main wheatfields, we should dispatch workers into the forest to speed up construction of our caravan. Delhi is simply too far away, and besides, they have to fill out our main subcontinent, for who else can do that?

The red dots represent city locations that won't grow much at all in the forseeable future, but will still be valuable eventually, largely because they are so close to our capital. The white dots should be settled first, but once all of those are occupied (by us, hopefully), the reds should be grabbed next.


Now, my children, you have heard of the Scythe. But what about the Whip? Sirian was a bold leader in the field of irrigation, farming, and military matters, but he and his line ruled with an iron fist, brooking no discussion, and dealing harshly with the common citizenry, at times. Never did the people rise up against their King, nor did they riot, but happiness was not as widespread as during the reign of peaceful and kind CharisGhandi and sons. The outlawing of the Weed was only part of this unrest. The rest came at the end of a cracking whip. For after training warriors to defend themselves, Sirian decreed that a temple should be built in memory of Bombay's founder, the great visionary, our First King. That particular son of Sirian was growing old and wanted to see the temple completed in his lifetime, and so he forced the people of Bombay to build and build and build, day and night, through harsh weather, without adequate food or rest. The temple was completed, but fully more than half of the citizens of Bombay perished in these few years. The temple honors the great Charis, while Sirian and his sons are hated in Bombay. :mad:

And so our empire has been divided. In the west, Sirian is hailed as king and hero, for bringing irrigation to our parched lands and doubling our rate of growth at home in Delhi. Delhi has become the City of Sirian, the City of the Scythe, while Bombay is entirely the City of Charis, now also known as the City of the Whip. It seems likely, thus, that Madras will come to honor the next line of kings? We do not know. What will that city come to be known as?

On his deathbed, it is said that the last of the Sirian kings intended to order the forced completion of the great granary made possible by the Pottery discovered in the Sirian era. This was to be the monument left by Sirian to the people of Delhi, to help them grow much faster in years to come. :) Something seems to have gone wrong, however. The King remanded his orders on the night of his death, or so it is said. The truth of the matter is murky. Only the next line of Kings can determine if the granary should, in fact, be ordered rushed to completion at any cost, as Sirian originally ordered, or if it should be allowed to be built at a normal pace, in honor of his final command?

Did Sirian decide at the last moment that he could not impose the Whip on his beloved city, Delhi? Or was there another reason for his last minute change of heart? The turmoil this has caused is great indeed, and only a worthy leader can discern the truth and deliver it unto our people. Who will step forward? Who has the vision to lead us into the next great era? Danger yawns, as the time of freedom from barbarian harassment has come to a bitter end. Our warriors have dug in on the high ground above a hostile minor tribe in the snowy lands to the north. The line of Sirian is no longer with us to lead us!

Sirian, our king, is dead. :skull: Who shall be the new king now?

I have heard rumors of a man named Hocus... arising out of the jungles, born of a Madras merchant hungry for the profits of dyes.

I don't know what each team member plans, but I think I'm going to download each save file after every turn and have a look, to see where things stand and what sort of changes each player makes, and things they emphasize on their turns. I don't mind if "spectators" do the same, as long as they keep quiet about stuff that could spoil the party.

End of Sirian's Turn on Round One: 1750 BC. Next up, Hocus.

- Sirian

The scribes of Sirian have not disappointed! For great are both the records and the acts themselves, of the sons of Sirian.

The ancient records have found some pages from the diary of Charis I.

> Sirian praised the divine wisdom of the line of CharisGhandi.
> He marked witness to the brilliance of the great leader, in
> training our warriors with the axe and then the bow.

A tribute to the Amazon nations, for whom this practice is their glorious tradition! :D

And phew! Glad the wheatland gambit didn't backfire! From your image posts, we have a splendid position.

> However, upon consulting with the leaders of our ancient
> temple in Delhi, and through divine intervention, Sirian was
> able to determine the false prophecy. Surely it was the evil of
> smoking the Pungent Weed that brought delusions to the sons
> of Charis. Vile demons were loosed through the smoke,
> corrupting the minds of Charis's great grandsons. What other
> possible explanation could there be for ordering the massive
> irrigation of a useless tract of desert while our sacred cattle
> forage and scrounge on the dusty plains? If Charis could only
> see what became of his sons!

Tactfully done... such strong words are well taken wrapped in prose :) What had gone through my mind was: "Two foods and two shields on the grass squares, we can get no further benefit under despotism from mining or irrigation. Yet we WILL be working those squares from now til the end of time, so putting roads on them will give a much needed boost to our commercial exploits. Alas, he may have been taking the weed, for now I'm not sure if an error was made in assuming what irrig/mining does. I'll have to double check that. (In my first civ 3 game I irrigated grasslands continously then noted about 20 turns later that I was getting no benefit at all from that under despotism!)

I love the screenshots, and the thought given to city placement. Those look like rather good spots. Alas, it will take some time to fill all those. You'ld love at this point to know if seafaring foes will come and sneak in. If so they must be eradicated on sight.

SUPER idea to post warriors in the mountains to FULLY cut off access to our subcontinent!! I had this thought briefly pre-founding and forgot all about it. That should ensure free reign to the entire West. A luxury I'm not used to at the start of these games.

A note to other players: this was an excellent example of both placing your own distinct mark on your reign and using your favorite tactics, changing builds orders in progress when needed, but 'keeping in mind' the long term plans of the ancestors. It's appropriate to lay out what you had in mind for doing things and some tips to consider in how to continue, but they're just that, "visions", not commands -- very helpful. I also plan to download the save files for spectating purposes, but will keep comments to myself. I can't wait to see how things turn out :)

Hocus... you're on deck, but the order is tentative in the first round. If Jaffa, Skan or Cy see this early and have a chance to slip in a turn, by all means do so (as it's Monarch diff, from Skan's post I expect he'll hold off slightly).

And the people cheered... :goodjob:

Charis

Once nothing more than a merchant's son, Hocus was now the leader of a fertile empire, entrusted with serving and protecting the Indian people.

On the rare occasions that he was not concerning himself with the affairs of the empire, Hocus took up the ancient scrolls of the scribes of the late King Sirian, reading and absorbing the history of the people which he now ruled over.

Hocus was amazed by the writings of the scribes of Sirian. They were both descriptive and colourful in their words, beyond any comparison. Hocus's scribes could not hope to match such mastery of the written arts, but they served their purpose nonetheless. :)

Hocus's reign towards the end of the year 1750 BC, and henceforth it is now recounted:

1750: In honour of the dying wish of the great King Sirian, the Granary in Delhi was rush built. Although it did cost the life of one citizen, it was felt by Hocus and his council of wise menthat the end was far more important than the means.

The fortified Warrior to the south-east of Delhi was ordered to pack up and begin his trek to the mountains of Bombay, where he would be re-fortified, to ensure that those suspicious French fellows to the east did not get any ideas about the lands rightfully belonging to India.

1725: It was soon clear to Hocus that this sole warrior, although valiant, would not be enough to hold off the French on his own - should they seek to settle our lands - and so Delhi was instructed to train another, who would join him. These warriors were not especially sturdy and would not last long in a pitched battle, but for now, in this time of peace, they served their purpose well.

1700: As predicted by the wise King Sirian, the savage Barbarian warriors in the snowy north did indeed mount an offensive upon the entrenched warrior, seeking safety in the hills. He fought bravely and successfully defended against these Barbarian raiders, and in doing so reached a new level of experience, becoming a veteran of battle.

Contact with a civilization who called themselves the Americans was made by the scouting warrior to the south-east. Upon my request, I was taken to their leader and we negotiated a trade of knowledge, to the mutual benefit of both our civilizations. In return for the knowledge of letters and words, (Alphabet) Abraham Lincoln provided the Indian people with the secret of the Wheel. It was thought that in doing so, our wise men would refocus their efforts elsewhere.

Ironically enough, it was at this time that my Chief Treasurer sent a warning to me that the Indian treasury was running dangerously low. As a result, we were forced to divert less of our coinage to our sciences, but instead to our coffers. Lowering our rate of research ever so slightly, (10%) we were still only breaking even. However, Hocus was hopeful that the future growth of the Indian population would serve well to raise this, as more tax paying citizens were born.

1650: Delhi finished the training of a Warrior to further defend the mountainous passes of Bombay, and begun the training of a skilled labourer, in the hopes that this future worker would speed up the acquirement of the valuable dyes outside Madras. Irrigation work by the existing Worker began outside Madras, to ensure that no one went hungry.

1575: Our scouting Warrior discovered the outskirts of the American empire, providing insight into their whereabouts.

1550: Delhi finished the training of its skilled labourer, and was instructed to train another. This was possible due to the Granary built earlier, which ensured that Delhi grew quickly and could easily support more.

1500: As the Barbarian raids from the snowy north had long died off, the Warrior defending the area was ordered to guard the area next to the borders of France, in preparation for the settling of this area in the near future.

1475: Delhi finished the training of its second skilled worker, but instead of training another, as before, instead a Warrior was started, to complete the fortifications of the mountains of Bombay.

Madras constructed its Temple, and was ordered to train a Settler. It was soon headed for size 3 and Hocus felt that expansion was of the utmost importance.

A road network was established between Delhi and Madras, ensuring that future trade and quick movement was possible. The Workers were now instructed to build roads to the valuable dyes outside Madras, which would please the people of India greatly.

1450: Bombay finished its Settler, and since it was still size two, began the training of another. Hocus had expansion on the mind.

1425: A French pair of Settler and Warrior was spotted heading towards the lands currently guarded by the veteran Warrior. It appeared that the Settler from Bombay was too late, or was he? It was time to make a decision. Was Hocus to allow these lands to be thieved from right under his nose, or was he to make a stand, here and now, and ambush the pair before they could establish a city?

Hocus thought long and hard about this, and finally decided that something had to be done. These French had long outlived their usefulness, and their outright thievery of Hocus' promised lands was intolerable!

The Warrior was too far away from the pair to engage them immediately, but he was closing in.

1400: Delhi finished its Warrior, and was instructed to train a Settler. Hocus wanted his lands settled as soon as possible. The Warrior began its journey to the mountains of Bombay to complete the protection of the Indian borders.

For the second time now Hocus was forced to lower his science, as again his treasury was running dangerously low. He did not like doing it, but it had to be done, for he feared that he may have to sell one of his wonderful Temples in order to pay off his debts.

It was then that the French pair founded the city of Tours, in a location that prohibited further Indian expansion. It was time to take action. The veteran Warrior laid siege to the city of Tours, and...



was successful!!!

The might Warrior smashed through the puny French defence, and burned the city to the ground. 11 gold was also pillaged, bolstering the Indian treasury to a more sustainable level. These lands were now open to Indian settlement, and for that Hocus was glad.

1375: The reign of Hocus was over, but he had set the wheels in motion for the Indian empire. The Settler from Bombay was in place and was ready to found a city next turn, with the victorious Warrior closeby prepared to be defend it, and with reinforcements from the mountains of Bombay on their way.

With sadness in his heart and a tear in his eye, Hocus passed the reigns of leadership over to Jaffa, the son of a powerful Indian Warlord who was not at all impressed with the puny French armies.

End of Hocus's Turn on Round One: 1375 BC. Next up, Jaffa.

Just 10 turns? Was that right? It seems very short, this early in the game.

A great and wise leader was being groomed for the leadership of the glorious Indian nation. Unfortunately before he could take the vacant throne, a small golden monkey sneaked in and began issuing strange and contradictory commands.

No, cancel those settlers! We need more military! I want archers and spearmen, up front, pronto!

We must have more color! These new dyes are to be distributed freely to all citizens! Yes, I know the royal treasury is nearly empty. Do not bother me with such trifles.

We have a new town in captured French territory? Very well, name it Bangalore!

What? The French wish to make peace, and will teach us the secrets of Iron Working, Writing and Mysticism. Very well, disband that expeditionary force we sent to Lyons, and send the men exploring instead.

Send those workers into the mountains near Bombay! I hear rumors of rich iron deposits, and we must have a road!

The archers are ready at last? And the war is already over! Very well, send them to stand guard around Bangalore. There may be more iron in the hills there, and the French must not be allowed access!

Bangalore needs a temple! What do you mean, the citizens will not take the whip? I will have a temple in Bangalore if it is the last thing I .. aaargh!

At this point the wise men of India threw out the mad golden monkey, and ushered in the true successor to the great kings of old, the one known as Skandranon.

(Attachment to follow, since it seems I can't add it in an edited post).

:)

Great job, Jaffa! Defended our lands, Peace with the French, BOO-KOODLES OF FREE TECH! Woo! :love:

You only took nine turns, though. :) The turn that you pass when you open the game belonged to your predecessor. Check the math on the dates: at 25 per, ten will take you to 1100. So play one more. (It will still seem short, but hey, not AS short). My turn felt pretty short, too, and I took 21 turns, to even out the date, but then Hocus also took one extra turn, which unevened it again, while Charis took like a bundle of extra turns, clinging to his reign to found Bombay, the City of Charis. That rascal.

Tell you what, maybe ten IS a little short, still. If you want to take it to 1000BC, that would be 14 turns for you, and we'll be back on track for the dates to end on round numbers, plus you can whip those slackers in Bangalore into shape. :lol: 750 550 350 150, AD50 250, then a hundred years per turn for quite a while, IF everyone sticks to ten turns from there on out. :cool:

I can't wait to see what happens on Cy's turn, when our mystics have foreseen the discovery of a new grain (to be called "hops"?) from which fermented drinks can be made. :beer: Will this lead to, uh, similar decisions to that of CharisGrandson? :smoke: Or will we see an unconventional yet brilliant line of kings lead us to unimagined glories, as per CharisGhandi's vision of the Valley of Abundant Wheat??? :rotfl:


- Sirian

If you're planning to whip Bangalore, you can get a "free" warrior first, or nearly, by just taking one more turn. 29 shields whipped instead of 20. Might help to block out the French from the iron?

- Sirian

The peoples of Bombay, lovers of the line of CharisGhandi, cheer wildly at the restoration of relations with the french. Such *great* terms too :goodjob: They were wondering if time would show Hocus' bold move as stroke of genius or the beginning of our demise. The great 'Monkey King' has established both Hocus and Jaffa lines as glorious kings!

I thought ten might be too short at this stage too, so I like Sirian's suggestion of 14 turns to get us back on round numbers. Also a good suggestion on getting the free warrior. Whipping, as most of you know, only costs *one* population life whether 1 or 39 shields, and bumps up to two lives for 40-59. Getting the most out of your citizens is good. Speaking of whipping... the Delhi barracks... they have 32 shields to be done, and are prime whipping material, especially since they will (i think?) go into revolt without an entertainer when the population increases in a few turns.

This multinational effort seems to be helping us with the game turn length - with more player turns getting done in less time with the staggered schedules.

Point of order, as I've not played a succession before... do we pass on the save file at the 'end of turn' marker, giving the next king the chance to change some build orders? Or are they to be beginning-of-turn saves? (I'm guessing the first is fine, just want to check)

Charis

Well, okay. Unless Skan beats me to it, the mad monkey will sneak back in for a few more turns :)

But, by my count, I did play 10 turns. Picked up at 1375, so my turn 1 was 1350, which makes my turn 10 at 1125, and I pass the game on before hitting the next turn button.

--
Jaffa

1375? You're right! I must have caught a whiff of the Weed there.

Well, take it to 1000 anyway. You did such a good job there, and Skan can't play until tonight. In fact, maybe both Skan and Cy should take 15 turns apiece also, and we'll start in on the ten turn deal with the second round?

Cy with 15 turns in hand may be asking for disaster, according to him, but I have faith in his ability to be a good team player. :)

After Hocus's turn, like Charis, I too held some concern for our mere survival out at Bombay, but Hocus's vision turned out to be brilliant, and Jaffa's statesmanship simply masterful. Nothing smells quite as sweet as victory! :king: Although... if Hocus had lost that attack (and the odds were about even), we'd have quite a different game to play. :eek:

Hocus the Bold :viking: Jaffa the Wise :love:

What will Skan's line bring??? :scan: LOOK! It's Scan-dranon coming up next! And, ack. Sirian has gone Smiley-happy. :eek:


- Sirian

"WHAT! Who let that monkey back in? He's slaughtering our citizens in Delphi and Bangalore!"

"But sir, haven't you always said that some sacrifices are necessary in the name of progress?"

"Well, maybe..."

"And the blacksmiths love him for bringing iron to our cities."

"Indeed. But have you seen where he is sending our settlers. He is completely ignoring the grand plan laid down by the legendary Si-rian, and seems intent on colonizing the eastern badlands."

"Well, apparently one of our archers reported vast herds of elephants. There is talk of the profits to be made from the ivory trade."

"Bah. We gave the citizens dyes and still they are not happy. There has been rioting on the streets of Delphi which this monkey seems unable to control. We are behind in technology. Our spies report the Persians already have discovered the secrets of inscribing maps. And now he has completely abandoned the defence of Madras! This has to be stopped!"

"Of course, you are right, sir. You take the left, I take the right, same as last time?"

I'm off today, so, as I haven't heard from Skan yet, I've got it.

--Cy

Uh, I wasn't aware of the "got it" rule...I just downloaded it and started playing. I'm not done yet, but....

...so whose counts?

-Skan

If Cy checks in, and wants to defer it back to you, Skan, that would resolve that. Same if you want to defer it. If he doesn't, I'd presume his version to be the continuation, since Charis DID lay out some protocol. I'm certainly eager for my next turn, so anything to keep it moving along suits me. :)

- Sirian

A son of a prosperous Indian family, CyGhandi’s father had sent him abroad to receive his education at the hands of the Babylonians, as they are a Religious race, as are the Indians, yet also Scientific, and thus good teachers. I learned much, and was confident that, when recalled home for my term as Regent of the Great Indian Empire, I would discharge my duties well.

On my arrival in Delhi, I called my advisors together to give me an overview of the situation. When I saw the maps of the known lands, my knees went weak. By the great goddess! My predecessors were attempting to snatch and hold fully one third of the entire known world, and perhaps one fourth of the entire world, should its regions ever be fully explored. Eeeep! While the Babylonians were wise teachers, they were not a Commercial race, and taught to build compact, efficient empires, and they had taught me nothing of how to build, manage, or defend such a sprawling, ambitious undertaking.

Great was the vision of my predecessors, and feeble my abilities in their wake! With shaking hand, I took the reigns of power.

After careful consideration of the map, and a review of all our cities, I decided on a two-pronged approach for my Regency. First and foremost, I would stick with what I knew best, and focus most of my energies on consolidating our known empire so that we would indeed control all the lands the ancients intended for us to. Secondly, and using few resources, I would maintain the spirit of my forefathers and mount an expedition into the northern tundra where none had ventured before me.

My first acts were to send a strong expedition North through the tundra, and to direct a settler party started on their way by my predecessor to a spot pre-ordained by the wise Sirian, far south of Madras and through the treacherous jungle. Still, there was much good land down there, and fishing banks offshore. Egads! The settling expedition sighted barbarians! I ordered them to retreat, as the value of the settler outweighs a few turns, and ordered a Swordsman south from Delhi to deal with the infidels. The arrogant Xerxes sent an emissary to trade maps. I told him I had no interest in pathetic Persian maps, but if he wished to waste his gold, he could have a fine map of India for 16 gold. By the time the old fool can read my map and plot perfidy, I will have consolidated.

In the year 925 a settler party sent out by Jaffa the Erratic 8-), settled the town of Calcutta on a nice bay in sight of great herds of elephants, and I sent workers to connect this town by road, and then build a road to the elephants. Soon thereafter, the swordsman from Delhi defeated the barbarian in the south and the settlement party left the protection of Madras again to expand glorious India.

850 was a dark year. In this time, mounted barbarians on horseback attacked our southern expansion effort, while swarms of barbarians on foot ambushed our northern expedition. Our southern troops vanquished the evil horsemen, but the vanguard of our northern force, after slaying the first attacker, was overwhelmed by numbers and fell in defense of his native land. I ordered both parties to find the source of these incursions, and show no mercy. The year 750 showed the fruit of these labors, as both a northern and southern barbarian encampment was defeated and razed, with each contributing 25 gold to our treasury. The people are so overwhelmed by this retribution for the long-ago sacking of Bombay (our people have a long memory), that they offered to expand our palace.

In 710, our glorious folk founded the city of Lahore in a spot foretold by the ancient leader Sirian. Upon learning of the name of this noble city, there was much merriment among the uncultured French—why, I do not know.

My time as Regent was growing very short. I set two more settling parties forth with orders to establish cities on spots laid out by Sirian, and with either an escort or, in the other case, a military unit is dispatched to meet them at the appointed spot. Likewise, there are two more settling parties due to be ready to go, one in 3 turns, one in 4. These two could continue my vision of consolidation on the plan of Sirian, if the next Regent so desires.

In closing, I have a few comments for the next Regent, to be taken to heart or discarded entirely as he sees fit. The Bombay and Madras production queue were set as placeholders for the next Regent, please produce what you see fit, it might well be time for more military after my expansion mode. Calcutta is set for a worker, as we have much jungle road to build and much jungle to clear, but that, too, was an impression and not set in stone. The workers there should soon finish the road to the second herd, a colony there might be appropriate to produce excess ivory for trade goods. Beware the French! Notice Joan founded Chartres to attempt to wrest Calcutta from our grasp with culture, or at least isolate it. Note the nearness of Paris and the distance to beloved Delhi—a future leader might need to waste a city to tie Calcutta more firmly to the empire and maintain communications.

Finally, a note to all future Regents. In my dreams last night, I was visited by a spirit from the future. He took me to a battlefield in times so advanced as to be inconceivable. Huge engines of war clanked across the battlefield, emitting clouds of dust and smoke and slaying men by the hundreds and thousands with loud noises and monstrous explosions. Once I conquered my terror, I looked closely at them. In my dream, they were huge, and complex, but not beyond the power of our best smiths to craft out of bronze and iron. The mystery was how they moved, for no source of locomotion could be seen. Indeed, they were far too bulky for the stoutest war elephant to motivate. I said to the spirit “Truly, you have shown me a vision both terrible and wondrous, but, how, oh spirit, are these great metal beasts powered?”. The spirit just smiled, put his finger to his lips, shook his head, and slowly vanished. Yet, while this was happening, we were gradually transported to a vast snowy wasteland, with few trees, and the sound of the ocean in the wind. Then the spell was broken, and I awoke. I do not know if this dream be true or false, good or evil, or even the product of too much curry. Still, so haunting was it, I ask this of future leaders. Consider closely the barren tundra my hardy warriors explored. Note the herds of migratory beasts, and great fishing banks offshore that could sustain a small city in the frigid north. Consider, please, if this dream be not false, one day, perhaps, a method of driving huge mechanical beasts might appear in those frigid lands of snow. Perhaps we should risk a settlement there as a hedge against the day when the land we now consider most foul sprouts resources we might find most necessary.

--CyGhandi

ps—Skan, only saw your reply on preview, we’ll iron this stuff out. Sorry, though.

hmmm, let's try the attachment bit again, shall we?

A wounded archer from amongst the survivors of the attack on the barbarian encampment in the far north, whilst hot with fever from his wounds, drew this map on a parchment, mumbling the name Sirian over and over.

http://sirian.warpcore.org/civ3/succession/rbd-india-tundra.jpg

Is this a fever induced madness, or a true vision? Only our wise leaders can discern this. We of the Archer corps can only report what we have seen. One sergeant believes that these red dots are similar to the ones drawn on the Ancient Sirian plan for settlements, but another says no, these are blood stains from the madman's wounds. Do these spots represent potential city locations? We cannot question the man, as his fever is worsening and our mystic believes he is going to die soon.

That yellow dot is strange indeed. Is that a pusball on the map, or is it indeed a strategic location to grab iron? One young warrior noticed that this WOULD make a great location for a canal, by which ships could cross from one side to another without having to sail all the way around the north. If this is of any value, is beyond my ken.

Those black X's, however, lead me to wonder. What could those represent? The green X's as well, are mysterious. Our mystic says they may be sites of interest to the French, unless we first grab the location marked by the green dot, but the wounded archer who drew the map will only repeat the letters "AI" "AI" when questioned about the green X's.

Perhaps this entire thing is merely a fevered delusion.


- Captain Krigan-Toh, First Royal Archers of India

Pardon the confusion here, let me clarify the turn timings:

- A turn should be downloaded, played, and uploaded within 48 hrs of the post of the preceeding player.
- If you can, within 24hrs, post either "got it" or "I can't make this round", it would be beneficial, to smoothly keep things going.
- The goal is a smooth and quick as possible game-- I would rather get skipped on time myself once and finish in 3 weeks, than have folks wait for me (and I for others) and take 6 wks.
- Why? How does this help? If no "got it" post within 24, the 'on deck' person should, if he has time, download the game and play it. After 48hrs with nothing heard, he can post his results and game file. Voila, no extra downtime.

For this round, with the results posted, Cy's game stands.
*** Cy, post the game itself please ***
Since still in first round, this will be the adjusted order:

Charis, Sirian, Hocus, Jaffa, Cy, Skandranon.

Thanks, and good luck.
Charis

Wow, just downloaded the map of "Cy the Consolidator". The kingdom is happy, at peace, working the land, and planning several settlers! I had visions of war and rumors of war, with a country too spread to fight...

On the tundra land, that top red spot with access to TWO whales is a gem of a site! It must become a city in our empire. Now... on that tundra in general... with TWO warriors fortified, that entire peninsula is CUT OFF to opposing countries, and we can settle at will. If we can get two warriors up there, it would deny ALL access to settlers. Let just one settler slip past instead, and we're destined for trouble.

Another vision... the move selling the map was probably a wise one, keeping us from a war with (gulp) immortals, and gaining gold for the coffers. But know this... I would have to think it won't be long before they land a ship on our shores and settle right in the homeland, southern branch. Let's get those cities planted asap :)

One other comment on the current state of affairs. French, friend or foe in the end, is right now "BUFFER". No one come come get us except through the french. In that respect, a happy and allied France is a good France, for India.

As for the "floodgates" to the East... Bombay could use walls and a spearman when a free chance presents itself. Heaven help us if Bombay falls :P

Very well done all, and good luck to Skan!

Charis

Far be it for me to contradict the almighty regarding his very own city, but walls do nothing more than offer the same bonus as being size 7+, and being built on fresh water with all that wheat, 7's in the works before long. Better a barracks and lots of vet units. The city to the north is also on fresh water. The one at the ivory, on the other hand, is a prime candidate for some walls sooner or later, just don't rush them, as it's only 20 shields.

Ships are some danger for grabbing our land. I actually think that it's unlikely we will prevent anyone from settling in the tundra because they'll just go around our land blockade, but we can try. Even a delay is good. The spot on the far north is no better than the red dot in the middle. Both will have +3 food over, say, the green or yellow dots, but that's all. (2 for fish, 1 ea for game/whales). Three is quite a lot in terms of growth SPEED for what amounts to fishing/forestry cities, but only three more pop in terms of max potential. Don't skip the lower dot to go grab the upper. The lower is better as it will have less corruption, and has more forest we can chop down after govt change to speed another building or two. The upper will have a few more shields, with the hills and whales, but those are lost to corruption anyway, so the closer one is definitely superior -- barring what Cy pointed out about resources, which we can only guess at.


There's one point in your protocol that I see a problem with: the second-next in line in downloading the game "and playing" but waiting to hear 48 before posting. If the MIA player then arrives and plays and posts, the other one's game is out in the cold, and they may learn things the first player didn't on their turn. That has the potential to skew the purity of the once-through style you have laid out for us.

I would think it would be better to say that each person has to post SOMETHING within 24, either results, "I got it" type message (which buys them another 24 to play), or "Pass". If they pass, or we hear nothing, the next up should step in, and the MIA player can either take their turn after that or get skipped that round. If that's a problem, then the time limits laid out aren't long enough for some of us. See my point? I would hope we could completely avoid, in future, the situation where we've got two different people playing at the same time.

Now what to do if someone says they "got it" and then still don't post results, I have no idea. :confused: Maybe take them out and have them whipped??? :eek: Or maybe a second "I still got it, please let me have another 24" or a "Oops, I don't got it, pass after all" message? I'm sure we can all agree to cut somebody slack here or there, but I at least would like to be informed as to what's up and what to expect from the current turn-taker as we go along.


- Sirian

Good points all, from Sirian...

> Far be it for me to contradict the almighty regarding his very
> own city, but walls do nothing more than offer the same bonus
> as being size 7+, and being built on fresh water with all that
> wheat, 7's in the works before long. Better a barracks and lots > of vet units.

Ah shoot, was speaking theory, not practice. Is this a change from civ 2? I thought walls were more useful. That's just plain junky then, nevermind.


> There's one point in your protocol that I see a problem with:
> the second-next in line in downloading the game "and playing" > but waiting to hear 48 before posting. If the MIA player then
> arrives and plays and posts, the other one's game is out in the
> cold, and they may learn things the first player didn't on their
> turn. That has the potential to skew the purity of the once-
> through style you have laid out for us.
> I would think it would be better to say that each person has to
> post SOMETHING within 24, either results, "I got it" type

Also true... ok, I think we'll stick with the original then, pre-clarify rules of:

- Within 24 hrs of a result, post "got it" or "pass"
- After this point, if you have not, the NEXT person on deck should post "taking it"
- 48 hrs after orig post, SOMEONE should definitely take it and keep the ball moving.
- The first one with "got it" is the 'official' turn holder unless he gives it up

A consequence of this is that if you're on deck, check the board often, and at LEAST once a day.

Charis

-

Hi, all,

Just got the game and was wondering if it's too late to join your succession game. Let me know,

Zed

Sigh...nevermind. The window of opportunity for me to play unrushed opened and closed. Someone else take it and run with it, and I won't be able to go again until the 29th.

I have a save, but it was played in between packing for a trip and it has several oddities - various losses of units due to not-paying-attention, war with the French, etc.

-Skan

Status update...

> Zed: Just got the game and was wondering if it's too late to join
> your succession game. Let me know,

We were targetting 4 to 6 players, and are currently at:
Charis, Sirian, Hocus, Jaffa, Cy, Skandranon. So no openings at present, but if any end up dropping we'll swap you in. And although it's early to tell, so far this is *rather* fun and I would expect another game before long at all :)


> Skan: Sigh...nevermind. The window of opportunity for me to
> play unrushed opened and closed. Someone else take it and
> run with it, and I won't be able to go again until the 29th.

Shoot, sorry again about the mixup, but you'll get a good reign your next go around :P

> I have a save, but it was played in between packing for a trip
> and it has several oddities - various losses of units due to not-
> paying-attention, war with the French, etc.

Oops, this is awkward. I'm going to take it as solely due to a mixup of of rules and us jumping in quick to keep the ball rolling that this occurred. In general though, and for all future turns, there will be no punting mid-turn if someone has actually played some turns. Going LESS than the full length of turns is always permitted, but we can't have "do-overs" with the next guy. Again, np this time, but I *don't* want to see this situation again! :eek:

With that, we're back at the top of the lineup. I'm taking it, with Cy's 650 post, and entering what I expect to be a build-up era. This will, unless problems arise, allow "Whip-and-scythe" man to move from build up to our next great campaign :P (Well... "no problems" is a huge 'if')

Charis

Holidays can be a harried occasion. I hope your next couple days are relaxed and enjoyable, Skan.

Seasons Greetings. :santa:

650 B.C. (0) - The Sons of Charis arise again to the throne. They survey what
is going on throughout the lands. The son of Rama is FAR to the East, and
lies as a scout. Bombay is happy and preparing a barracks. Delhi, infamous
land of the pungent weed is turning out settlers. Lahore is working on a
temple, Madras on a granary, and Calcutta on a worker. CharisGhandi II
wonders why we are studying Map Making, when Mathematics can help our
students get into grad school. The micromanagers of Bangalore note that
corruption is wasting a shield, and some city workers are shifted to get one
more food with no less in 'actual shields'. This situation will need to be
monitored. Apart from that, all is VERY well.

630 B.C. (1) - Mostly autopilot, the people of Bombay feel uneasy about being
the "floodgates to the East" and rush build a set of Barracks. This command
is being attributed to whippy-Sirian-I and no one holds this against Charis!

610 B.C. (2) - Persia completes the Pyramids (yikes!) Barbarians in the south
were fended off by our brave swordsmen. Various other wonders started by
other countires (how do they have time for this?!)

590 B.C. (3) - Karachi founded, and the new settler from Delhi dispatched to the
final "Sirian vision" spot on our subcontinent :) The injured son of Venkat
holding fast in the tudra runs into barbarians. With 2-1-1, offense is chosen
as the best defense, and he defeats the bar to become a veteran.

570 B.C. (4) - Paris completes the Oracle (eep!) Culture expands the boundaries
of Calcutta, and the people celebrate. Shields come in to help the celebration
via the freshly cleared forest. The Venkat archers press on to clear the last
barbarian, and gain 25 Gold in the process :)

550 B.C. (5) - More barbarians, southern part of subcontinent, again dispatched by
the Swordsman, Ravi. Bombay has a large "content" population, and in need of
'quality' food squares. Production breaks to make a worker, due next turn.

530 B.C. (6) - Noted that Delhi's cycle 3-4-5-3 with settlers left it one shield
short, so we made a Swordsman and went to a 4-5-6-4 cycle. More efficient?
Or return of pungent weed??? History will be the judge.

510 B.C. (7) - Kolhapur founded to the SW of the mountain pass to Bombay.

490 B.C. (8) - Travel turn, the citizens rest in peace.

470 B.C. (9) - Jaipur founded at the 'Canal' spot leading to tundra land. Hyderabad
is founded in the SE corner of the subcontinent, completing it's development!!
The people are proud, and with relish, add on to the palace :)

450 B.C. (10) - It was a quiet turn, some diplomats sent to France, wonder
what became of them?

Issues which CharisGhandi II points out to his successors...

Bangalore - consider a Barracks poprush (Spearman chosen at present)
(The city workers are again shifted to get one extra square, "giving
up" one shield which is wasted due to corruption anyway)
Madras - In one more turn you can poprush the Granary (or a Barracks)
Calcutta - the barracks chosen next is in expectation of a rush next turn
The workers near Calcutta have, I fear, taken the weed! For goodness
sake, somebody help them and move them to irrigate and road the land
near blessed Bombay!! Or, perhaps better, to the cattle near Bangalore.

Science research has been abysmally slow. Will this get us in trouble?

Wait!! An announcement! The Indian Diplomats return from France with news of a
deal only the Indians could arrange! They have given us Code of Laws, Philosophy,
Literature, Horseback Riding, AND Furs, in trade for our extra Dyes and Ivory and
a lump sum of 175 gold. Seems to me a good bargain, and one which should
keep the French off our backs for 20 turns (unless they want to LOSE the
favorable luxury trade ;p) :goodjob:

Oh no!! An independent diplomat reports purchasing the knowledge of Mathematics
for 75 gold! We could now, if we choose, go Republic (with no anarchy, being
religious) - although giving up on Despot rushing would likely be bad. And to
get to the next age we need only Construction, Currency, Polytheism after we
finish learning Map Making.

Respectfully submitted for weed analysis,
CharisGhandi II :egypt:

Doh! Wrong thread! GRR!

Anyway, nice game here!

In the year 450BC, in the heart of our great empire, at Delhi, a council of clerics arrived in the city from unknown parts of the Empire. They called together all the religious leaders and elders of Delhi and did show to them a girlchild with a strange mark on her shoulder. The wise men disappeared into the great temple archive and did not emerge for three days, nor were any allowed entry but for servants bringing more fish oil for the lanterns.

On the fourth day, the Patriarch of Delhi emerged, sought an audience with the king, and declared the Prophecy of the Silver Star to be manifest. He did enumerate the Five Signs:

1) That the second of four great military victories in the "land of ice and wind" shall have taken place.
2) That three silver stars shall fall from the sky.
3) That the line of CharisGhandi shall have passed again from control of the throne of India.
4) That the Settlement Plan of Sirian shall have been fulfilled in the southern jungles.
5) That a girl child shall be born of peasant farmers, bearing the royal seal of Sirian in a natural birthmark on her body.

He then presented the girl, tore the clothing from her shoulder, and showed the Mark to all present.

The king tried to flee, but the guards held and restrained him. Even as the patriarch read the grim Prophecy word for word from the original scroll, now tattered after all these centuries, the king was put to the sword and his body removed from the throne room. The Palace was shut down, and so began the two-score Decades of the Council, as foretold.

Little is recorded of this time period, but folklore relates that life under the Council was not as harsh as some contend. We can judge only by the results we know were obtained.

As foretold, a great emphasis on the Scythe was spread across the land, as the Church controlled the empire and ordered the outfitting of more and more laborers and public works. Our national workforce fully doubled during this era, increasing the productivity of our lands, but also the promise of more improvement yet to come.

As foretold, the Whip saw widespread use in distant colonies, where corruption and greed otherwise undermined our lawful efforts to expand our economy, but once again, as in the time of Sirian, Delhi itself was spared any such hardships.

As foretold, we established embassies in all known foreign lands, vastly improving relations with all our neighbors and rivals, averting possible war with Persia, and securing an enduring peace. India has indeed become the diplomatic leader of the world. Even arrogant Persian dogs are polite to us in negotiation now.

As foretold, our military position has been strengthened. A third great victory was won in the tundraland, as a sixty year war with barbarians, including two assaults on our settlement at Jaipur, was won with the razing of the enemy capital.

As foretold, the French did ship us their wealth for a song. On this point, some details are known. For even as the wiley French Queen sought to seduce our ambassador into giving away access to our icy land in the north, she was in turn seduced into paying us 80 units of gold for 20 turns of mutual right of passage, even as our warriors settled in to their blockade at the base of the peninsula, rending said agreement useless to the French. Pride will never allow the French to admit they have been duped, so you may be sure that French histories will record this Indian bargain as a French victory. Those liars have no shame.

As foretold, our knowledge of the world and all lands connected to India has been completed. As foretold, we have won a military victory over Persia without shedding blood. Our expeditionary force did secretly destroy their roads through a key forest without being detected. More such harassment activity may be possible in outlying areas of the Persian Empire.

As foretold, the Second Age of the Whip and the Scythe has passed without major war, and another agricultural and labor revolution has taken place. Our workers bring water to a parched desert city, mine the heart of the mountain range overlooking Bombay, cut their way slowly through the thick jungles, and connect the most distant lands to the heart of our empire with roads.

As foretold, the Persians have settled new colonies on distant shores and we have learned about it. We have also heard rumors of new civilizations located off the eastern shores of America. Surely, we must make contact with these peoples as quickly as possible, sell them our world maps, buy theirs, and sell those to our friends, establish embassies, and secure our rightful place as the diplomatic, cultural, and religious leaders of the entire world!

As foretold, after precisely two score decades, the Council of Clerics have brought forth a son of the Hocus merchants from Madras and proclaimed him the next King of India. The Clerics have vanished as quickly and mysteriously as they appeared, ending what is surely the most strange era in our history, but perhaps one of the most forward-looking. Indeed, our land and people have a new outlook on life.

What the future holds, we can only imagine.

The Council, before their departure, has foretold us of great works the French shall build before long. Their city of Paris will one day rival our own capital, perhaps even SURPASS IT, as a center of culture and civilization. This is a grim prophecy indeed!

This, too, has been foretold: that new workers shall be produced in Bombay in just TWO turns if all is left alone, even though all our scholars and foremen swear that it must take three. The Council was clear about this, the gods themselves will bring favor down on the City of Charis. Will the King honor their vision and continue to train workers, or risk the pox that they have warned against should he cross them and redirect the city's efforts?

The final foretelling: that India shall suffer great tragedy if we betray our word to the French to let them roam our lands unmolested for the next period of time, in exchange for their gold. What shall be done with this gold is unknown, although it will surely be expensive to establish embassies with any new peoples the Americans may introduce to us.

Of the Council themselves, little is known. Rumors run wild, but facts and records concerning them are not to be found.

Hocus, are you there?

As per rules, I'm taking this now, but I'll check the forum again before I actually start playing -- likely in a few hours.

--
Jaffa

I certainly am here.

I checked to see if Sirian had taken his turn at 7:30pm my time, last night. He had not.

I went over to a friend's house and checked at 10:30pm my time, and he had.

It is now 6:23pm my time, and therefore I am in time for the 24 hour rule, and am ready to take my turn.

Jaffa, I appreciate your enthusiasm, but at least give me a chance to have my turn, in accordance with the rules.

Downloading it now...

If the times shown on the left next to each post are to be credited, Jaffa did wait more than 24 after my post to make his post. However, he also said he'd wait and check back again, so I don't see any reason the turn order should be tousled here.

Good luck, Hocus. May your reign be prosperous and your troubles few.

- Sirian

You're right Sirian, I just noticed it myself.

I'm at a loss to explain it, except perhaps for a caching problem my browser may have had when accessing this page the night before.

I've finished my turn and my report is nothing fancy, but I am exhausted and don't really feel like spicing it up. Hope no one minds.

230 BC (1) Delhi finishes Swordsman, builds Library.
Bangalore finishes Worker, instructed to build a road to Jaipur, builds Library.
Lahore finishes Temple, builds Library.

210 BC (2) Archer in northern tundra defends against Barbarian Warrior and Horseman.
Bombay finishes Worker, builds Library.
Kolhapur builds Temple, trains Swordsman.
Researched Map Making, changed to The Republic.
Warrior near Persian cities destroys a road linking their cities.

190 BC (3) The French, using a Galley, unload a Warrior and Settler pair on the Tundra our two Warriors were preventing access to. It is decided that war with France would not be a good idea, so they are left alone. If a Settler could grab the other city spot, the French city could be possibly absorbed into our culture.
Karachi finishes Worker, builds a road to Kolhapur, builds Temple.
Persian borders expand due to culture, Warrior is forced to move to the only square nearby not in Persian territory, a single Forest tile. This is done to prevent strained relations with the Persians.

170 BC (4) Bombay riots, one worker made a Scientist.

150 BC (5) Road between Karachi and Lahore completed.
French found Avignon on the spot where Sirian placed the green X on the left.

130 BC (6) Barbarian Camp in the northern tundra is destroyed by the Elite Archer.

110 BC (7) Archer ordered to defend the tile with the northernmost red dot on Sirian's map.

90 BC (8) Bengal finishes Temple, trains Swordsman.
Persia demands Territory Map and 26 Gold. Refused and they declare war. This may seem a bit frugal, but I have a plan.
French contacted, ask them for Military Alliance vs. the Persians, they accept for our World Map and 21 Gold, our relations improve slightly.
World Map sold to Americans for 1 Gold considering the French probably try and do the same next turn.

70 BC (9) Jaipur finishes Spearman, builds Temple.

50 BC (10) Palace is expanded.

I started the construction of a lot of Libraries, as I felt that the culture and science bonus was worth it. It will help our currently poor research rate and assist in the absorption of French cities.

Perhaps I took a gamble with starting the War with the Persians, but I feel that the French should keep them busy for a while. There are a number of French cities the Persians have to go through to get to us, so we should be fine. If they do manage to beat down the French, by that time they should have calmed down a bit. I asked the Americans if they'd also declare war on the Persians, but their requirements for doing so were outright extortion so I withdrew my offer.

Apart from these events, I mainly did my best to improve the terrain around our cities - in preparation for when we discover the Republic - and to connect the cities up with roads.

I recommend that a city in the northern tundra be founded as soon as possible, to prevent the French from gaining it and to assist with the absorption of Avignon.

Next up is Jaffa, good luck.

Got it :)

Oh yeah, I just realised.

The nice thing about getting France to declare on Persia is that no matter who dominates, that's at least one less civilization we have to worry about.

Personally I'm hoping Persia hurts France, thus enabling us to perhaps settle in their previously owned territory, but we'll have to wait and see.

Perhaps a peace treaty with Persia at the nearest opportunity would be a good idea? Keep in mind they have Immortals, and the best thing that France has at this stage for defence is Spearmen. This way, we could let the Persians kill off the French for us, for free, while never lifting a finger ourselves.

Just some thoughts..

A new leader takes control of Indian destiny. Rumors abound. Who is this stranger with the soft voice and golden hair? He is popular among the citizens, for among his first acts is to arrange for additional entertainments in all towns of the empire.

The leader argues with the Indian scientists, who insist on continuing their studies into alternative means of government, when there are other matters the leader considers more pressing. Eventually the scientists convince the leader that it would be a pity to waste all the work they have put in so far.

Maybe the new leader is from a merchant family? It certainly seems that he has a trader's instincts. He bargains with the French for contact with the Aztec empire, in exchange for a small sum of gold, and orders that Delhi should construct a harbor, to open the sea trade routes.

"He's not from any merchant family, sir. I checked. None have ever produced a golden-haired son. Maybe the military?"

The road to Jaipur is completed. The new leader loses some support amongst the populace when he orders the whip used to complete temples in Jaipur, Karachi and Hyderabad.

"We are at war with Persia, and he has not sent a single soldier to the front. A military man would never be so weak!"

There is consternation among the wise men of the nations when the leader abandons long-established plans for a library in Bombay, wasting many valuable shield to produce a settler. The leader offers no explanation, but directs the settler to proceed east with all haste, meeting with a military escort along the way.

"What is he doing? This is madness!!"

"Sir, I believe I understand. We have reports that a French town was lost to the Persians and the royal stables were destroyed. If we are quick we could secure a supply of horses."

"Well, hmmmph. Horses, eh? Don't trust them myself, but I know the military would love to get their hands on them."

The golden-haired leader trades iron to the French in exchange for new knowledge. The wise men squabble over the names of the gods, while builders divine the secrets of new constructions.

"Have you heard? The French dogs have made peace with the Persians! And our leader does nothing!!"

"It's worse than that, sir. He has dispatched our envoy to the Persians with instructions to buy peace at any price."

"WHAT!!"

Peace is made with the Persians in exchange for 4 gold/turn from the Indian treasuries. The French are convinced to renew the expired Right of Passage, paying 80 gold for this useless privilege.

"He continues to trade with the French scum, when we should be wiping them from the face of the earth! He gives them our precious dyes and ivory, for a pittance of gold and contact with some pathetic foreign empires."

"Well, sir, he did also convince the French to teach us the use of currency to aid in our trading."

"Bah. We trade quite well without this 'currency' nonsense. I think it is time the golden-haired one met with some small accident."

Official records record the untimely demise in 150 AD of the then Indian leader in a freakish accident as he accidentally stabbed himself repeatedly with his quill pen while writing in his diary. His name is lost to history, however there is repeated mention of his distinctive golden hair. And one report makes mention of a tail...

Sacrificing France to buy us some time may have been the wisest action, once we had war on our hands. 20 gold would have been a smaller price to pay, however, to buy us that same time. We did not need France beaten down. They would have been a robust trading partner, and we could have grabbed the horses from them in the middle ages and run over them at our leisure, them with no iron.

There's no If about France's downfall. They don't have iron, haven't had that horse long enough to build many horsemen, and won't be keeping it much longer. Persia is possibly capable of completely wiping France off the map.

A larger, stronger Persia is our worst fear. We are, as they say, in a pickle now. We are committed to 20 turns of war with Persia. If we break that, our rep goes into the drink. That may have to happen, though, if Persia takes over those horses and then marches on US instead of Paris.

From that situation, I'd have gone back to spearmen in Calcutta, then whipped two or three swords in a row and also upgraded that warrior. Those ivory were something I figured we'd be going to war over eventually, but we're pretty much assured of that being a whipped town now. It's never going to amount to much more than an ivory-military outpost. And right now, the force we have in place there is insufficient.

When Persia hurts France, it will be by taking over, except perhaps at the horse, which is right on Persia's doorstep. That city might get auto-razed. This situation actually looks rather grim to me. If the option to mobilize for war were on hand, I'd be doing that. We're behind in military might, ESPECIALLY in regard to spearmen. Swords look strong now, but can't be upgraded.

Presuming possible loss of Calcutta upcoming, and without horses or any real hope at the moment of acquiring them right under the Persian noses, I'd suggest building some catapults in towns with no barracks, spearmen at Bombay (maybe get a courthouse there instead of the library), and mass a force at Calcutta strong enough to fend off as many as six immortals in one stack -- because relying on France to shield us is dicey at best, and when the Persians come, they won't be playing around.

Avignon is a total waste. It shuns the fish, which is the only resource of high value in that area. Ignore it, build in the same spots I laid out (yes, that close to Avignon) and we'll raze it later, or perhaps keep it if it defects.

Jaffa's got quite a challenge on his hands. I wish him the best of luck. Whatever happens, we'll persevere.


- Sirian

I think the French must have read Sirian's assessment of their chances even before I did :)

Got it. Should be able to pass it on tonight, but it might be late.

--Cy

Amid muttering among his advisors as to some “mad monkey,” CyGhandi once again assumed power. A quick perusal of the state of the kingdom left him greatly reassured as to the glorious future of India, and with little, in fact, to do. I set my priorities as:

1) to see that Jaffa’s horse-grab did not fail.
2) to strengthen our defense with an eye towards upgrading.
3) To use the few remaining years of despotism to exploit the people
4) To blunt Joan’s aggression on our northern border.

1) In a slow motion foot race, Jaffa’s settler beat the Pernicious Persian’s settling pair to the horses by one turn, and in 210 AD Chittagong was founded and directed to build a Temple so the people could pray for deliverance from the Persian hordes sniffing at the door. An extra spearman was dispatched to aid in its defense, and a worker was detailed to complete a road to the settlement to bring the boon of horses into our kingdom.

2) I shifted military build emphasis from Swordsmen to Spearmen, as they are upgradeable all the way to Mech Infantry and I do not forsee an offensive in our near future.

3) I applied the whip in several cities to hurry production. The people do not love me, but have not gone so far as to riot.

4) I pumped out another settler and dispatched him to the tundra to build next to Avignon, along with a worker to build a road and a spearman for the defense. The spearman is already in place, the settler will arrive in a turn or two.

The Zulu have gone to war with the Aztecs.

There is a galley in Delhi.

My major concern is with Chittagong, which is entirely indefensible at the moment. We might want to found a city to hold the border near the captured town of Lyons. They would still be largely indefensible in the military sense, but we might be able to hold them culturally. Delhi is about to finish a Marketplace, and could quickly pump out a settler.

Cy

Skan said he's out until the 29th, so that leave you up again, Charis. Uh... good luck, noble leader. :crazyeyes: :smoke: :beer: :satan:

- Sirian

France may have ended up being a great trading partner, or then again, they may not have. They had no source of Iron, as Sirian said, and hadn't had their Horses for long. France just didn't appear to be that strong to me. It was surviving, but for how long? How long would it take for the AI to smell blood and march on France?

Both Persia and America were quite a deal bigger than France at the time, so I chose not to delay the inevitable. I thought that in doing so, we could settle some of France's rich lands for ourselves, while playing a rather passive role in the War by negotiating a peace treaty with Persia asap.

Anyway, as per Jaffa's last game, I would have thought that it had paid off. We now have a source of horses, and peace with the Persians (albeit at a somewhat expensive price). Persia has also made peace with France, so we haven't lost our trading partner.

We'll have to wait and see if my decision was correct or not, I guess.

Eh, no worries here.

I read your post and thought "cool move."

I don't know how well you know Sirian, but if he did not respect your choices as a reasonable option he would not have spent time nitting them 8-).

A lot of the fun of a succession game (at least for me) comes from three avenues: (1) getting bizarre situations that would *never* happen in one of my games dumped in my lap to deal with, (2) the *great* writeups we have had, and (3) Monday-morning quarterbacking 8-).

Besides all that, a healthy mix of playstyles just makes it more fun for me 8-).

Let's face it, Charis and Sirian are old grannies with slide rules who know how to optimize build order so that not a single shield is wasted, and never hit the space bar until they have personally checked on each of their cities, and know the geneology, blood pressure, and pulse of each of their workers. I have no clue how to do that, keep at least half my workers on shift-a, and only zoom a city when it is yellow or red.

I love to turn things back to them, knowing they will tune up whatever I have let get whack through neglect, and I love taking over so I can interject some mayhem.

So my outlook is, have fun, do your best, explain what you did, and why, and consider all second guessing for the future.

But hey, it is good to be king 8-).

When you are king, play your game, as long as you are not directly confounding the path of the rest of the team, which no one has.

It is good to be king 8-).

--Cy

After solid years of happy reign :goodjob:, the people once again developed a thirst
for the pungent weed, and CharisGhandi III accended to the throne. He looked
over the annals of the last leader, and was in wholehearty agreement with his
four goals. So he set about to meet with his advisors and set the plan for the
next ... years. Thusly did he endeavor...

1. Shore up defenses at Chittagong, Calcutta, and beloved Bombay (aka the Floodgates)
2. Improve relations with the Persians, and maintain peace with France
(Visions of Immortal hordes rushing us keep CharisGandhi up at night)
3. Get us to the point of being able to make our special unit, War Elephants.
That might even trigger a golden age where we could go Republic and prosper
4. Found a city in the tundra at the lower spot of destiny, and push culture there.
5. Get roads to Chittagong and the new city
6. Meet the Zulus
7. Use the whip as needed while Despotism was with us

300 A.D. (0) - A diplomat noted that Persian was angry, and reasoned thusly. He has
excess Wines, which we can trade with Ivory. We need Monotheism for Chivalry and
Elephants, and giving him gold per turn makes it less valuable for them to declare
war on us. Thus was a double swap made. This turned his heart from Annoyed to Polite.

While the majority of close advisors cheered the actions of his successors,
there was one boisterous picker of nits (clearly an AR fellow) who pointed out:
- A Cathedral, newly available as a choice, would fit present needs better than
the marketplace. He noted that with 20 shields left to make it, he could increase
food production by shifting workers, cutting shields from 11 to 10 without loss.
* Just read Cy's comment calling me a granny with a slide rule... gasp, he's right! *
- Bombay seems unhappy despite a temple. We should whip them to making a Cathedral! :)
(But sir, aren't they unhappy DUE TO the whipping?)
- Bangalore, with its solid size, had to serve as the defensive post to the North.
We switched to Barracks to help this, and to avoid the large excess shield waste
about to occur on the spearman due next turn. (Similar situation in Bengal)
- Using the Ivory forest in Calcutta got us an extra shield, halving spearman production time.
- CharisGandhi does not fully understand the library push, but allows it to continue
for now for Sirian's sons to deal with (Hyderabad and Karachi)

310 A.D. (1) - Americans want to see us, and offer contact with the Zulu for 22 gold.
We accept. (Goal 6, met) We trade Territory Maps with them, the Aztecs, and others,
netting about another 30 gold in the process. No one has additional technology
(except Monarcy) and many seem to fear our Swordsmen (good!)

320 A.D. (2) - Micromanage and whip Bombay slightly, in the end getting Cathedral for 2 citizens
Switch Chittagong to worker... let's get irrigated while there is peace.

330 A.D. (3) - Punjab settled in the southern end of the Tundra, right next to Avignon (wee!)

340 A.D. (4) - Not much, lot of building going on...

350 A.D. (5) - While the sons of Gandhi are vacationing in Lahore, the whipped is cracked
mightily in South India. Also, a Cathedral is forced completed in Bombay!

360 A.D. (6) - Harbor rushed in Jaipur. First horseman training started.

370 A.D. (7) - Hyderabad pushed to make Barracks. The Peace is holding out well, will it last?

380 A.D. (8) - We're told everyone and his brother is racing to build Sun Tzu.

390 A.D. (9) - Quiet.
400 A.D. (10) - Fairly quiet. Ended turn with diplomacy shopping for Feudalism. Best
offer was for Territory, Monotheism and 2 gold, from Zulus. Now we're
just Chivalry away from our War Elephants :P

Note with Feudalism obtained, we can build Pikemen! Those should last quite some time.
The upgrade cost from Spearman is 20 gold.

Pundits forsee the end of the reign of the pungent one soon. The economy is not doing
well at all, and we get more science from diplomacy than research. Workers are
now in place to irrigate key spots, near Chittagong, Bombay and Bangalore. But
at least they can say of his reign... he met his goals well. They anticipate a time
of the scythe with econonmic reform ahead.

CharisGandhi III

First this place goes down, then N54 dies out. It's a conspiracy to slow our progress! The evil Persians have been paying bribes!

Detailed report from my turn later tonight.

- Sirian

In the year 400AD, an uprising in the city of Calcutta marked the beginning of the end of an age old era. A young nobleman named Ciri-Yan, fed up with the entrenched corruption of the government, led a popular uprising that threw down the King's Governor. Every man and woman with any ties whatsoever to the government, including those whose political affiliation supported the governor, were rounded up and put in chains. They were forced to construct a courthouse by Ciri-Yan, who vowed that the rule of law, not of greed, should prevail in Calcutta henceforth. Fully half the city perished in this Great Purge, but the honest citizens were spared, and once freed of the shackles of bribery, forgery, and graft, production immediately tripled in the city, and tax revenues improved fivefold.

Ciri-Yan swept on to Bombay some ten years later, where he purged the governor from power, ordered the construction of a courthouse, and strengthed his control on the southeast of all of India. As word of his deeds spread across the land, support for him swelled beyond all control of the line of corrupt and wasteful Charis-Kings. In the year 420AD, anarchy swept across the land as the last of the Indian Despots fled Delhi into the desert, and Ciri-Yan swept into power, ordering representatives from all the city-states to convene, to write a new Constitution, to place limits onto the government and create "elections" by which (get this) the people themselves would choose who would lead the nation!

The nation ground to a halt during the brief years of anarchy, but when the Senate convened for the first time, the Constitution was signed, enacted, and enshrined in the Archives of Sirian in Delhi, beside the ashes of the remains of the parchment by which Sirian himself ordered the cessasion of Pungent Weed use across the land. Ciri-Yan was then elected President of the Senate, and corruption was reduced nationwide almost immediately, for even in the most distant provinces, many remembered the Purge of Calcutta and feared the wrath of the Senate.

Farming yields were increased, mining production soared, and commerce nearly doubled across the land! Truly this revolution produced bounteous gains! Never again would the whip crack in the cities of India! No more forced labor. So swore Ciri-Yan.

Then, in 430 AD, another crisis befell the land. With the army no longer in charge of suppressing dissent, and the people now free to speak their minds in criticizing the government, the absence of martial law saw a rise in unrest. Even the army itself grew restless, and there were rumors of desertion. At least three divisions of warriors disbanded overnight! Only the Senate could deal with this. Ciri-Yan conceived a solution: PAY the army! Yes, it was monumentally expensive, but tax revenue increases were sufficient to cover it. However, this ate quite nearly all of the huge surplusses that had been projected, and so Ciri-Yan laid before the Senate an agenda to expand and improve the economy. Courthouses were to be built across the land, in every city where there was not an IMMEDIATE life-or-death priority of greater nature. In Madras, Bengal, and Delhi, the least corrupted cities, markets would be constructed to increase the flow of goods and commerce. Bangalore would produce more workers, and then start in on its courthouse.

Embassies were established with every nation on the earth, and knowledge and gold were obtained in exchange for our maps. Agreements were signed with the Germans to permit them passage through our lands and waters, while our agreement with the French was suspended because they could not afford our price. The Zulus, also, seemed eager to sign a treaty with us, but could not afford our demands, and so we have told them come back when they can make a reasonable offer.

Ciri-Yan conceived a potentially brilliant plan: to tame and train the herds of elephants around his home city of Calcutta for use in war! He set all the nation's mystics and wise men onto discovering a means of making this vision come to pass. As such, he believed the role of the horse in defending our lands would pass into insignificance, and so he redirected the training of horsemen to that of the pike. Many spearmen units were upgraded to the pike across the land, at not inconsiderable expense, but our generals were very pleased.

Word of a minor tribe as yet independent of the great powers, located at the most distant end of the earth, led Ciri-Yan to mount a Great Expedition. Our galleys were manned with a force of spearmen and ordered to sail around the earth to this location, in hopes of making contact with the minor tribe before any of the other great powers could negotiate with them. A gamble, for sure, but Ciri-Yan was nothing if not bold. This naval expedition has its orders, and need not be interfered with until it reaches its destination, whereby an assessment of how to proceed with the minor tribe must be made anew.

The French Queen sent an emissary to the Senate with a list of demands. He was laughed out of the city and not heard from again. Our generals were concerned about the French marching on us to make war over this humilation we dealt them, but nothing came of it. Apparently, unlike the Persians, the French may be prone to idle threats.

As Ciri-Yan aged, he passed into retirement, and his grandson, Seeree-Yan, was elected to preside over the Senate. Seeree-Yan ordered the rushed completion of the temple in Punjab, not with forced labor, but by opening the National Treasury and hiring additional workers to complete the project. The cost was fairly steep, and some questioned if this were akin to giving the citizens of Punjab "free pork". Thus, the "pork barrel" project was coined, and the scandal of it tarnished Seeree-Yan's first term in office. However, it also won him new supporters from Punjab, as well as Bangalore, and Punjab soon prosperred as the brightest center of culture in the frozen north, strongly overshadowing the infidel French in their village of Avignon. Seeree-Yan's wisdom was thus borne out and he was elected to another term.

Some in the Senate urged that settlers be equipped and sent out to the lands of the west, but Seeree-Yan believed that we were too far distant and too far behind the western powers in this regard, to secure such settlements. He vetoed the Western Settlement Act and ordered the continuation of courthouse and marketplace construction. Just a few years later, when our settlers would have been at sea, still distant from the lands of the west, these lands were in fact settled by German, French, and English settlers. So Seeree-Yan's wisdom was again borne out and he was elected to another term.

In the year 500AD, the courthouse in Bombay was completed, and the stronger enforcement of the rule of law saw an immediate decrease in waste and corruption. One of the last acts of his final term, Seeree-Yan ordered the training of more pikemen at Bombay. He believed that two more units would be needed in the future, that the City of Charis ought to be made highly secure, and that there should be construction of a Senate Bureau of Invesitigation (Forbidden Palace) in this city, charged solely with the duty of investigating criminal activity and reporting to the Senate, with full federal authority. The SBI was the last legislation proposed by Seeree-Yan, but it got tied up in committee and its fate will be decided by future Senate leaders.

When Seeree-Yan retired, other Yan family members continued to be elected to the Senate from Calcutta, but control of the Senate fell into the hands of the Hocus merchants from Madras. What shall befall the nation now? We have no idea. The rulership of Madras merchants has been turbulent, as every major war in Indian history has begun under their leadership, but their boldness has so far paid off for us, so perhaps it will be so again.

Watch out for Bangalore. Yan supporters there have been whispering of dissent against the Hocus merchants. The Senate will need to keep any eye on them, at least for a while. When the Zulu have enough money to make it worth our while, securing a passage treaty with them may be to our benefit. Research output has reached a sustainable level of 30%, but only after heroic efforts to straighten out the economy. Corruption is still our greatest enemy of the moment, despite the impressive results of the Great Revolution and the stark changes made in government.


- Sirian

Oh yeah, and if you guys can be bothered, please take a few moments to manually direct the workers. I inherited a bevy of automated FOOLS, corrupt Charis-WeedSmoking Id-Jit workers. :smoke: They were running around in circles and doing NOTHING useful, while on the government payroll. Well, needless to say, the Senate fired ALL of the local foremen, installed federal supervisors, and directed the workers to begin important projects, but even so, at least a full TURN of work was wasted here and there, as I could not get all these Id-Jit workers off automation until they had wasted one turn moving automatically. :mad: Now get this -- I kid you not! -- not a SINGLE ONE of the Id-Jits made a useful move while automated. :eek: I had to move every last one of them somewhere else, or in a couple cases have them construct a low-priority road somewhere unimportant so as not to waste yet MORE turns with them. It might not be so bad if SOME of these Id-Jits did something useful, but not one did.

Please please please don't A or Shift-A them. It's not that hard to give them orders every couple of turns, especially this early, when it actually matters what they do first, and whether or not turns are wasted just moving moving moving around instead of efficiently working on a continual basis. What do you say? You only have to put up with ten turns at a time, right? Yes?

It would make me very very happy. :love:


- Sirian

The economy sure has taken a nice turn for the better. Income seems to be about quadrupled since the weedy years. Alas, as Murphy would have it, expenses have quadrupled too! :P

On non-automating workers, I'll second that notion. The idea of automating them is SO foreign to me that I didn't realize until about turn 9 that in fact, some previous ruler had set them about these tasks. (So they're smoking weed, but not weed I fed them ;p)

The Punjab is interesting. I didn't know you could "push back" borders when your culture expanse. Cool :) A cultural victory over there would be neat. Although... having some *offensive units*, say elephants, staged there WAITING for war to break out, might help us turn such a souring of the peace into quick gain!

A question on the Forbidden Palace - you weren't suggesting Bombay were you? Shouldn't it be further away from the capital for best effect, say Calcutta?

Courthouses... I can't say I've ever seen so many built. Do you regularly build those, and has it worked in other games? (Not questioning the choice, just so unfamiliar with their effect in practice, I had to ask)

Marketplaces - I just noticed we have four luxuries. iirc, we would get a *TON* more smiley faces with a marketplace in a city. Also more revenue. Good stuff.

Good luck to Hocus...
Charis

Yes, I'm definitely recommending Bombay for the FP site, in the strongest of terms. That city is going to have a TON of shields, so that's a choice location for a no-corruption city. That location will help Bangalore, Calcutta and horsie-town greatly, all the cities in the south to some degree, and all of our future acquisitions in what is currently French territory.

There's often no sense "wasting" the FP early if it's not going to do much good. But the shape of the land dictates things. There's no use waiting another 1000 years for a Great Leader to get it going down in Calcutta. What more could be gained from that? Calcutta would do better, horsie would do better, and it would be slightly better for Lahore, but Bombay and Bangalore and Jaipur would all lose out, and so would that jungle town south of Bengal.

Bombay is the ideal site, and the sooner the better. You want to see a jump in the economy? Watch what an early FP in Bombay does for us. Maybe pump out a couple more pikes first, just to be SURE it's safe, because once it starts on the FP, it's locked in for thirtyish turns.

I'm loathe to build the FP in a city adjacent to the capital, but Bombay is 2.2 city lengths away, which is usually good. Any farther pretty much REQUIRES a leader, or takes for-ehhhh-ver, although in some cases it's worth it. You don't want to build your FP on a city on the edge of your empire (like Calcutta). You want a central location, or at least central-ISH, to spread the benefit as widely as possible. Bombay's not ideal, but it's the best we have with this land shape. Getting it built quickly may ultimately provide more benefit than a more ideal location some 1000 years later. There have been games where I've wasted my FP by NOT building it at all, or waiting too long, because I wanted a better location.


Not building courthouses????? :lol:

Seriously?

You haven't been building courthouses in EVERY city? Even the capital may benefit from one in some cases, if all other priorities have been built. Any city one length away can afford to build a few other things first, until their waste climbs to two or three shields per turn or gold lost at 5+. Every OTHER city needs one cultural improvement, and maybe a harbor if they are on sparse land, and then a courthouse must come next or they will sit at one or two shields and go nowhere, and you get nothing out of them. I've been known to pay for courthouses, if I couldn't whip them out, because you start getting immediate benefits in gold per turn no longer lost to corruption. It's an investment, so to speak, and pays off in both gold and shields (shields being worth 4 gold apiece in terms of what it costs to rushbuild). Not always worth it, some shanty towns are just tooooo far from a palace, and are so corrupt, it won't matter. But anything within two to three lengths of a palace or intended FP is worthwhile.

Scientific civs may find it important to build libraries before a courthouse because getting culture going early is so useful. Every other civ needs a temple, can't be sitting around with no culture. Militaristic civs may decide a harbor is too useful to wait on. And of course, if you don't have Code of Laws yet, you have to build other stuff... and there's always military to consider. Walls, in some badly exposed towns far from reinforcement options, may be wise if the town needs an aqueduct and will be stuck at size 6 forever. Barracks, too, may be important for healing units in a town you expect may be attacked, because it has resources. (Calcutta, for example, is almost sure to draw invaders at some point down the line. Need a strong garrison there at all times, and right now we don't have one). Courthouses bring a city "online". Not always THE only priority, but certainly has to get top consideration, depending on the situation. Any cushy interior cities not directly next to the capital ought to build one quickly.

Has anybody else here not been building courthouses? They weren't worth it in civ1, as you could rush to early democracy at or near 1AD and never need them. In Civ2, they had a benefit under democracy so I would always build them anyway, and quickly. Now they are the most urgent building in any city not extremely close to the capital. Running at 20% and 30% science, because you're too poor to afford more, is not something seen in any of my games, at least not since the first one. Heh.

Charis: if Cy ends up continuing to automate workers, you have to keep an eye on them. Any that move on their own, you can awaken by "activating" them, even though it says "unit already moved". They will return to your control next turn and you can give them meaningful orders then. Maybe you can't be spared from Brewmeister-Cy's peculiarities :beer: but you can help to spare me. :) Please. :)


- Sirian

Speaking of Calcutta, Madras is also vulnerable. Those dyes may at some point look tempting to the English, whose army quite significantly outmatches ours at the moment. I had it building an aqueduct, and after that it will need a marketplace, so other cities may have to supply it some more defense. Just be aware, the English can come plop down a shipload or two of troops on our shore at any point, and the AI won't bother to warn you by declaring war. They'll just attack. They are RABIDLY greedy about cities with resources they don't have. Don't get caught flat footed.


- Sirian

Got it, playing now.

510 A.D. (1): Upgraded a Spearman in Bombay to a Pikeman.
Delhi finishes Marketplace, trains Pikeman.

520 A.D. (2): English demand Territory Map and 20 Gold in tribute. We comply, in order to avert War. I don't think that a third War under my reign would be quite so bold right now. ;)

Territory Map sold to France for their World Map.
Territory Map sold for 1gc to America.
Territory Map sold for 1gc to Persians.
Territory Map sold for 1gc to Aztecs.
Territory Map sold for 1gc to Germans.
Territory Map sold for 1gc to Zulus.

This was done since the English probably would have anyway, plus, it may have helped relations somewhat.

Calcutta finishes Pikeman and trains another.
Hyderabad finishes Worker, trains Pikeman.

530 A.D. (3): Bombay finishes Pikeman, trains another.
Bangalore riots, one Worker changed into a Tax Collector.

540 A.D. (4): Delhi finishes Pikeman, trains another.
Bangalore finishes Courthouse, builds Marketplace.

550 A.D. (5): Aztecs declare war on the Persians.

560 A.D. (6): Bombay finishes Pikeman, builds Forbidden Palace.
Bengal finishes Marketplace, trains Pikeman. Spearman at Bengal upgraded to Pikeman.

570 A.D. (7): France and Aztecs sign a military alliance against Persia.
Delhi finishes Pikeman and begins Colloseum, since it has six happy citizens and five unhappy ones.
We trade the Germans their World Map for ours and 4 Gold.

World Map sold to France for their World Map and 3 Gold.
World Map sold to America for 5 Gold.
World Map sold to Persia for 4 Gold.
World Map sold to English for their World Map and 4 Gold.
World Map sold to Aztecs for their World Map and 4 Gold.
World Map sold to Zulu for 3 Gold.

It is seen that as of yet, nobody has made it to the village that our Galley is headed for. This is good news.

580 A.D. (8): Madras finishes Aqueduct, builds Barracks, against Sirian's recommendations for a Marketplace. We *need* Pikeman and veteran units in Madras. I do not like the idea of sending units from other nearby cities when they themselves aren't overly defended. Also, should a siege from the English ever take place, the Barracks will be extremely useful.
Calcutta riots, one Worker changed to a Tax Collector.

590 A.D. (9): Nothing of interest.

600 A.D. (10) Persia demands Territory Map and 22 Gold in tribute. France and Aztecs *are* at War with them, but the tribute is paid nonetheless.

My reign ends.

During my reign I did my best to strengthen our defences and to not be too bold. *g* It looks like the English are planning something on our coast so be very weary. We need to become stronger as soon as possible. Also, it might be a good idea to improve relations with the French, who are currently annoyed. They pose no real threat to us, but if they are polite we tend to get better deals.

Nothing more to report, good luck to Jaffa.

A couple of comments and questions...

- Didn't realize that 'A' automated workers would happily "improve' over existing improvements. This makes 'A' a HUGE no-no in succession. (Shift-A will 'improve' without mining over your irrigations)

- I think I've only built the FP once. (Then again I've only had, what, 4 games?!) Even that was in a classic dumbell arrangement. So I don't have a good feel for its impact. Glad to hear your comments on wanting to get one going by building, not waiting for a leader. :enlighten: Bombay over Madras I now see better, but... perhaps Bangalore?

> Not building courthouses????? Seriously?
[punch]

This must be a Civ 2 throwback. Nope, never used 'em. Best part of such games is learning important tactics such as this :P
My highest diff game was pretty much a get-to-Knight-and-WHIP-whip-whip to conquest, so corruption was a total non-issue.

> Barracks, too, may be important for healing units in a town you > expect may be attacked, because it has resources. (Calcutta,
> for example, is almost sure to draw invaders at some point
> down the line. Need a strong garrison there at all times, and
> right now we don't have one).

In games so, far, this has been quite crucial. Having the defenders heal was a huge boost vs the waves they saw attack them. (Speaking of which, in my other Monarch game, I was shocked at the sheer volume of troops that did attack when the enemy went war on you. When we DO see an attacker moving on us, it will be not with 2 or 3 warriors but with a dozen immortals or Knights)

> automate workers, you have to keep an eye on them. Any that
> move on their own, you can awaken by "activating" them, even
> though it says "unit already moved". They will return to your
> control next turn and you can give them meaningful orders then

I've used that activation, but... is there no command that says "finish your current action so as to not waste turns, then snap out of your automation mode"?? If not, there SHOULD be :P
I'll make sure none remain auto, you'll not have to deal with anymore auto-jits.

Looking at the Histograph... we're doing pretty well, much better than my solo Monarch game :P But as I look at the expanded map I have to ask... what's next? What type of victory are we likely to get? French is doomed. It's a matter of time. The only way we'll have enough "land mass" to stay as strong as we are, is when the territory of france belongs to us. With that, one city pops square to my mind.

Tarsus.

Just as Bombay is the floodgate, the chokepoint, to the Indian Subcontient, so is Tarsus the Constantinople of the French Subcontinent. We will one day own in Tarsus, or the game is not ours. When is a good time for conquest? Alas, there is no great time. We are behind militarily, and in a much needed season of consolidation and improving. It would be to spread too thin to start war. And yet... if Persia does move on France, we must ally and basically kick Persia back East of Tarsus. If we 'help' in a war that leaves us with Tarsus and surrounding Paris on all sides, so much the better. As far as special units... we're about 16 turns from getting War elephants, and so about 25 turns from having an army full of them (if needed). With no upgrade available, they're a use-them-or-lose-them unit. They're the offensive answer to Immortals, just as Pikemen are the defensive 'answer'.
In such a scenario, of combined France-India, Lyons, btw, seems a great FP choice. Either Persia or America will 'win out' amongst themselves, and will be the other parnter of the greater continent.

So where WILL the victory come from? On this diff and with this map, it won't be conquest. Domination is possible, but only if we started (at the advent of the Elephants) a very major and extended campaign, dropping us back, perhaps forever back, into despotism.) If not that, Diplomacy or Space Race may end up doing it. Culturally we're doing well, second only to Persia. Absorbing the French would put us in first there. Diplomatically, we're reasonably well liked, and a leader saved for United Nations seems prudent.

Does anyone know quantitatively the effect of whipping on people? Looking at Sirian's Great Libarary, he suggests more than one or two whips cause problems in the long run. I've reported several whips, but am not convinced that I or others have mentioned every whipping. Will such effects "wear off" if we're in a non-whipping republic for ages, or are we stuck already? Some of the south india cities may be been pushed pretty hard. :eek:

Charis

PS We need a Barracks and Pikeman in Chittagong ASAP after the temple. :rolleyes:

"As far as special units... we're about 16 turns from getting War elephants, and so about 25 turns from having an army full of them (if needed). With no upgrade available, they're a use-them-or-lose-them unit. "
War Elephants DO UPGRADE to Calvary.

"Does anyone know quantitatively the effect of whipping on people? "
Whipping last for a limited time (I believe 20 turns.) Multiple whips in 20 turns produces severe happy problems, but if the town is small with military garrions ...

Ah, good to know on the elephants. In the civlopedia it left out that detail (or I'm too tired and delirious to remember)

Thanks for chiming in, and I just wanted to say it's from reading the stories and progress of your succession games that I got interested in them and this one got started, so thanks! :lol:

:goodjob:
Charis

So where WILL the victory come from?

Just about anywhere we want it to, presuming we don't misstep at any point and lose a couple of our cities to some sneak attack or by entering into the wrong war at the wrong time.

The English are the only ones who have us over a barrel, and that ENDS once we have rails by which to shift reinforcements to wherever they may be needed.

On this diff and with this map, it won't be conquest. Domination is possible, but only if

Only if? Heh heh. Now you sound like Diablo players talking about how they can accomplish XYZ Feat, "only if" they have a certain item, or use a certain skill, etc. You know better than to box your thinking into a corner.

I'll go as far as to suggest that, yes, somebody who builds no courthouses (and isn't used to playing Commercial civs?) isn't going to secure the kinds of tech leads to put them in the driver's seat. If you take our civ back to despotism at any point, there will surely be a massive popular uprising the moment your turn ends, and many UNkind things will be written about you in the histories. :p Many many many, including vile epithets.

Rails and factories can massively increase production. The draft allows for much less painless "buffering" of the military than the whip. Cavalry in particular is so strong, it can run over almost anything, even some infantry if properly supported. Our elephants will give us a golden age, and damn if we're going to waste THAT in despotism, whipping our cities to no useful end.

There are four scenerios, and I don't know that we should pick ahead of time which will be best.

1) We remain neutral, attacking nobody offensively. Downside: we may risk missing out on our Golden Age.

2) We side with the Persians and attack the French, swallow them, stay buddy-buddy with Persia and stand with them against the world.

3) We side with the "allies" and attack the Persians, making them the hated civ of the world by whatever means necessary. This one COULD backfire if they crumble, allowing some new threat to emerge, but who knows.

4) We side with nobody, attack judiciously JUST to get the GA, and then seek peace quickly after getting some small gains.

A whole lot is going to depend on resources. If we don't have any saltpeter but someone near us does, well, there you go. We can't build cavalry or much of anything until riflemen without saltpeter. If we don't have coal (quite possible, although I am HOPING we do at Bombay, and get the Iron Works there) then we'll have to bend our whole civ to acquiring coal and holding it, or else lose our edge and pay through the nose for it for the whole game. If we don't have any rubber in that huge jungle, this game ought to be shot. Plain and simple. :)

The AI is stupid. People are not. If we can keep Cy from automating every worker, we can gain a further edge (above and beyond our current edge) when we get to steam. Rails in the right places do wonders, and we can surely get to rails first by skipping most of the optional techs in the middle age -- and by LOWERING CORRPUPTION, with courthouses and the SBI (FP), and not overdoing the military. Can't underdo it either, but we don't need masses and masses of elephants. Six or eight should do, for starters. See where it goes from there. The golden age will propel us greatly forward!


If not that, Diplomacy or Space Race may end up doing it.

Diplomacy is the least likely. We're too much in their faces already, and chances are, that's going to get worse. The thing is, we already have just about all the land that's ever going to matter to us. Maybe a couple cities directly to the west of Delhi could be made useful, but they'd still be two lengths away, or more. Taking over France, with the FP at Bombay, will leave all those cities somewhat productive, but we'd either have to eliminate France entirely, or starve the population down to minimal and regrow our own citizens. Revolt is a nasty deal.

Everything else, landwise, is completely useless to us. The only reasons to conquer or settle past that point would be to hurt a rival or to acquire vital resources -- or to milk the score, which frankly doesn't appeal to me much. Milking just for more points starts looking too much like work to me. I enjoy building, and conquest, but I'm no milkmaid. :)

a leader saved for United Nations seems prudent.

Can only have one leader at a time. If we get one early, I'm certainly NOT going to save him through my turn. We can get another later, or not need one at all, if we play well. Playing no reloads ups the value of armies, as you get an assault unit that can beat down strong defenders -- especially prior to tanks. Or a defender with triple strength, that can't be taken out. Using an early leader on a middle age wonder can help ensure you don't NEED one later to build the UN. On Monarch, the AI's aren't all that highly advantaged. It's a good sign that the AI's are ganging up on bully Persia. If they all get into a warring mood, and go Communist, they're complete toast. The game might as well commit harakiri as to go Communist. The AI is just SO woefully inept at managing combat once units with three movement points enter the picture. They're incapable of defending well.

We can't upgrade TO elephants, but we can upgrade them to cavalry later on. Fairly cheap, too. So it won't hurt us to build plenty of them, they are NOT use-or-lose units.

You put that whip away, Charis. You hear me? It's wasteful. It's useful on enemy cities, take them over and whip them hard, you can churn out longbowmen and pikes, and some knights, but this isn't a pangaea map. We're plenty large enough and strong enough to do what the AI won't do: reduce corruption, increase production.

We're probably too late to get the Sistine Chapel, which would have been really really nice for all our cathedrals, but maybe the French will build it for us. :)

Whipping is the great loophole of civ3. It would be interesting to see if Firaxis ever closes that loophole by swapping priority on content faces, such that too much whipping overwhelms temples and martial law, and sends cities into hopeless unhappiness, where you end up having to turn everyone into taxmen, and starving the city down to size one, where it sits thereafter. Right now, you can whip whip whip whip a size one city and never worry about it. That's neither historically accurate nor sensical. Take that away, and what do you have left?

Whipping as many as three population will go away before too long, once the whipping stops. Two or less is usually no problem at all. Whipping five or more and it's going to last and last and last and last, as the effect seems to be geometric, increasing both the length and degree with each extra whipping. Whip ten times at a city and the whole unhappiness seems to last for simply ages. I've seen it take over 200 turns to settle down. That's FOREVER in practical terms. Bombay, in our game, is quite nearly overwhipped. We're going to lose a lot more production off that last whipping or two than we gained. I am only glad I could come save it from more abuse while it's still in decent shape. I know I was the first to whip it, and all the blame falls on me because leaders "were just following Sirian's example". But if the trade-goods luxuries dry up, it's going to be in some trouble. Three wheat, and it's still growing slowly at this point. Might as well, as more mouths to feed are just more unhappy people. So I left it on maximum mining at the end of my turn.

Believe it or not, with a religious civ, those temples come out so quickly, I don't always whip them. If a city can muster two or even three shields, it might be able to build it on its own, and let the population build up so I can whip out a courthouse or something else pricey. :)

Courthouses also help resist cultural takeover. You and Cy have been worried about that, but I've not yet had any of my self-built cities defect to the enemy. Ever. I don't even lose many captured cities, although I have lost some. (How can you not? The game is harsh about that). The whip does NOT always come down to a matter of one pop for forty shields. Shields and trade lost because the pop is lower can mean a net LOSS for whipping, and even in just a few turns. I whip colonies far from home pretty harshly -- I traded THREE pop for a courthouse in Calcutta -- but that is only because more pop at those pits of crime and vice go to waste anyway. Closer to home, you've got to let them grow more, ESPECIALLY if they are on water and don't need to pause for an aqueduct.

We'll also have to see where Skan goes. I gather that he's not tried anything but the ancient war rush, and word from his aborted turn spoke of war and losses. I'm curious to see how his turn will go.


The ancient war rush would only allow what? One or two turns per player? A building game lets us build history as well, and the shared history we've written is probably the best part of our game. You, Hocus, and Jaffa have all tried a few bold things I wouldn't have dared, that have paid off, or at least worked out. It's been a lot of fun for me because, as for Cy, the situations I've been handed have been quite different from my usual fare.

If we happen to get a leader in time to build Sistine, that should be our priority with him. If not that, well, it will be up to the winning player, but either use him to rush a wonder (in a place where not many shields would be lost, which is also SECURE) or to build an army, stick a unit or two into it, make SURE it wins a fight, and build the heroic epic. Whatever you do, do it right away (or as soon as possible, in the case of moving him to rush a wonder). Don't have him sit around doing nothing much besides preventing us from any chance of earning another one. :)


- Sirian

Monkey see! Monkey do!

Nothing major happened strategically, just carrying on with building and stuff. Surprisingly, the monkey king didn't have any wars to deal with this time :)

Cancelled RoP with Aztecs, awaiting them having some more gold. Renegotiated the deal trading ivory for Persian wines so instead of paying them 6 gold/turn, we get 4 gold/turn from them :)

Traded iron to French for Theology + 4 gold/turn -- be sure to cancel or renegotiate when it expires.

610AD Started bringing spearmen back from Chittagong to be upgraded to Pikemen in Calcutta. Sent our archer to destroy road to Tours where it passes through unclaimed territory :D

620AD England declares war on Persians. Americans declare peace with Persians. French demand extra gold to continue trading dyes for their furs.

630AD Americans and Zulus start on Sistine Chapel.

650AD Chivalry!

670AD Start first war elephant in Delphi. Palace expanded for 2nd time this go round :)

680AD Aztecs try to sneak off with Theology under cover of a world map trade. Instead, sell them a RoP agreement for 2 gold/turn + 12 gold. Our archer destroys the road to Tours again :)

Do we want to send a settler to the island with the goody hut to grab the iron there, for trading or just to keep anyone else from getting it? Or is it too late at this point?

Got it. I think I'll have time to play it tonight before the libations begin to flow too freely 8-0.

Herein beings a tale most appropriate for the celebration of the beginning of the New Year. Is it, you ask, because the star of India shines so brightly in the cold winter’s night? Nay, it is because it is a tale best heard with the comfort of many, many, many pleasing drinks.

CyGhandi was appointed Grand Regent of India (with the advice and consent of the Senate) in the year 710, taking over from Jaffa the Wise, who had left the Kingdom in most glorious contentment and order. After a lengthy review of the Kingdom, CyGhandi decided to alter in no way the course of events put into motion by Jaffa. A conversation with all the other civilizations revealed that, while at least half of them had also discovered the wonders of Chivalry, a few had not, and were bound to discover it soon from others. I sold them the secrets for a total of 30 gold lump and 7 per turn—a paltry sum, but enough to put our kingdom in the black and ensure our research into Engineering would not falter.

In 720, the astounding expedition to parts unknown set in place by Sirian arrived at the new lands. The uncouth settlement there was glad to see us, but in tribute could only offer maps of their lands. So backwards were they that these maps were of just what one could see from their own village! Heathens. I directed the galley to return home, while the intrepid Spearman was set forth to eagerly explore this land. Most of his eagerness was because I directed the galley to return without telling him, and he is eager to return home to kill me, but I digress. As of the close of my Regency, the galley had not yet made it home, and the Spearman had found nothing (beyond the iron already noted) except barren lands and mountains. He continued to explore them.

Also during this year, our most forward settlements reported huge numbers of Putrid Persians streaming towards our poor comrade Joan. It is said that the fearful observer counts every foe twice, yet reliable indications still pointed towards around 50 immortals, along with Pikemen and Knights, were flooding into France and towards our poor Empire. Alarmed, I convened an emergency session of the Senate. When I explained the situation, they immediately enacted the Bay of Bengal resolution, whereby, while still remaining glorious Republic, I was granted emergency powers to come up with and enact a plan for this situation. When I explained to the exalted Senate that I was not worthy of such an honor, they hastily assured me that I was, that I was precisely the man for the job, then packed up their family and possessions and went on extended vacations all over the globe. One of them even said to write them how it came out, if I lived long enough.

With such an outstanding vote of confidence, I set out with renewed resolve to somehow survive the current mess. A close examination of the troops on the move, Joan’s defenses, and our own military, I determined the following.

1) Friend Joan was toast. Burnt toast. With Immortals on top.

2) If the Persians so desired so were we. We would fight valiantly, but, even at the end of a loooong supply line, we were destined for extinction or a miserable, scraping, existence.

3) Hi Opal (private joke).

4) I could neither help Joan meaningfully, nor oppose the Persians successfully.

5) Therefore, I could either Turtle and hope the Persians were content with Joan’s downfall, and deal with them pushing against our borders and taking the northern wastes, or—

6) Roll the dice. Not teeny tiny dice, but great, big, huge-ass fuzzy dice. Betray Joan and attempt to assuage the Persians while conducting a sneaky counter-attack. Yipes!

I chose to roll the dice, of course. Right now, if you are on the team, you should start drinking heavily. If you don’t drink alcohol, even milk might help. The Green Wave was coming. I did not wich to be dashed to bits, neither did I want it to wash over me and soak up all of France and leave me a vassal next to a humongous state. I wanted to use subtle counter-aggression on the cultural front and Persia’s long supply lines against it. The Americans are notorious (in Civ3) for stupid wars—if I can somehow get a good counter-stance against Persia without provoking war, and turtle until they get into it with America, they might forget about us for a while, at least until their Immortals are obsolete. I chose to attack the Persians culturally under the guise of military aide, and to help him eliminate Joan.

I plotted deception and aggression against both France and Persia. Where I could, I swapped production over to settlers to prepare to wedge cities into lands cleared by the change of power from France to Persia. I shook loose all the offensive units we had to the Tundra to base at Punjab. I quit cutting the road to Tours, as I assumed that Joan, under pressure, would empty the Tundra of her troops, and I wanted them out as fast as possible to make them easier pickings. I pre-positioned Pikemen to pick up the coming Settlers at our borders and escort them to their destinations. I set the first two Settlers towards locations that would infuriate the Persians 8-0.

Meanwhile, the Persians took Paris, Joan moved her Capitol to Orleans, and the Persians continued to pile it on. It was with grim satisfaction that I saw Joan empty the Tundra of her Swordsmen through our ROP to toss them into the fray.

In 790, I put the second phase of my plan into force. First, with no troops in French territory, I ended our ROP with Joan. Then I contacted Xerxes the Foul. For our assistance against friend Joan, I extorted Furs for 20 turns (may the peace between us and Persia last 20 turns) and their maps. Then, our noble Army of the Northern Tundra took on Avignon. I was hoping for only one Pikeman stationed there, and a quick rollup of the peninsula. Friend Joan was much more prudent than that 8-(. I hit first with units with retreat capabilities (one horseman, one war elephant), to damage the enemy without losing a unit, and to count her guns, so to speak (hazard—a retreat unit will not retreat against either (a) another fast unit, or (b) if they have the foe down to 1 hp). In this case it worked as planned, Joan had stationed 2 Pikemen there, they were both wounded by the initial assault, and my 2 Swordsmen finished them. I razed the city, sent the captured workers south, and retreated my units to Punjab to heal up for the second phase. Meanwhile, in the South, I settled cities sure to boil the Persian’s blood—one on the doorstep of Paris, and one (as foretold long ago by a previous incarnation of CyGhandi) by Lyons. The result is to isolate Persian-held Chartres completely.

I have much to say to my successors.

First, the thing I feel most strongly about—the Northern Tundra war. I do not mean to overbear, but I have this action planned out most meticulously. First, I have set an ambush outside Tours. I used our trusty Elite Archer from olden days to capture a worker, then stepped aside. The AI being the AI, if Joan has more than a single Pikeman in Tours, she will send a unit out to recapture the worker. Said unit will then be toast to the Elite Archer, who might even make a leader on the victory. Trust me on this one, the AI is hard-wired to capture workers (and why not, they work for you for life with no costs). The Army of the Northern Tundra will be healed by 820. They should beat the Persian Infection to the punch by a number of turns, and take Tours easily. What you will need to decide is killing blows. We have an Elite archer, and a War Elephant in the mix. One might get you a leader, the other will get you a golden age. Truly a problem for future leaders to handle 8-). There are probably 2 Pikemen in there, so a little care is called for in the assault, but you have overwhelming force. Remember Archers die off with Longbowmen 8-).

Bangalore. So, how big a (metaphorical pair) are you swinging? I have a Settler in hand in Bangalore, but ran out of guts (real) at the last minute. There is a very nice site at the base of a mountain on a river dead between Orleans and Paris. It would put a lot of culture pressure on Persia, and would open the door for an encirclement of Paris, if you shift production to more Settlers. Glad it is not my decision….

Research. Engineering comes in in 2 turns. To Education or to Invention? In my games, I always straight-line to Gunpowder, but War Elephants are as good (given trade-offs) as Musketmen, so an Education approach might be good, especially if you use a War Elephant to kick off a Golden Age. More decisions for my follower 8-).

Oh, and Sirian. All workers are on manual. I have no idea if they are doing anything useful, but now they were assigned at random instead of picking stuff themselves at random…

Good luck.

--Cy the Nervous

Odds and Ends.

Man, what a turn. I was sweating through my shorts. I will eat said shorts if (a) the ambush does not at least provide a target (as to the success of the ambush, all bets are off 8-)) and (b) I have not committed enough forces to do the job. That is the one lesson Civ3 has pounded into my head time and time again—send obliterating forces. Still, you should have seen the animation on some of the Persian moves as huge stacks of immortals trekked through. It reminded me of my modern era strat, where a typical column would be 12 tanks and 15 mech infantry…

Personally, I would punch out a couple of more settlers and fill all the gaps around Paris, but I don’t know how the team feels about this or how touchy the AI is on Monarch difficulty. I play on Emperor, and sneezing will start a war. Fail to plant a spy=war. Fail to trade world maps=war. At least in one ill-fated game, aggressively settling around in open areas created by a war I was marginally involved with=entire planet declared war against me 8-). I don’t know how the folks who play on Deity manage it.

This turn was a welcome-to-my-world turn for my unfortunate team. This is the way I play Babs. I only held back on pushing the culture-settlement issue (we only lost a turn or 2) to let another voice be heard. Militarily, it is indefensible, but it works sometimes 8-). Backfires, too…

As soon as it is late enough for the extra knowledge not to matter, it would be interesting for me if anyone on the team would download the game as I got it (In excellent shape, btw, thanks Jaffa) and see what they can make of the situation once it goes south. I like constructive criticism. I know my way works in a fashion (at least in solo games up to Emperor difficulty), but I would like to hear of better ways, other ways, etc.

Sirian—go ahead and laugh. The prime reason I use shift-A is because I DON’T KNOW WHAT I WANT THEM TO DO. I have yet to learn how to play that micro, and I might not ever bother (gasp). When I first start, I control each worker every turn. After I’m rolling, I shift-A them until steam, when I grab every last one of them and build a MILITARY rail network, not a bunch of curlicue bs. The AI seems not to have heard of DARPA or the internet, and insists that any one route from one city to another is fine, so I am often reduced to moving them by hand hex by hex to build the routes I want first. After that, back to shift-A until I decide to start cutting wood 8-). I make exceptions for clearing jungle, cities in yellow not stalled by aqueduct/hospital, and leading irrigation paths across my empire. Otherwise, shift-A dude 8-). I’m trying to direct them personally, but I have no idea what they should be doing.

--Cy

l’audace, l’audace, toujours l’audace

This swallowing of the French by the Persians... it is not unexpected. The only question had been when. (OK, answer earlier than I expected :P)

Perfect!! :P We get to take over the tundra lands and not have the backstabbing French around anymore. So Cy, I'm raising a drink, but it's a toast! The only problem of course, is a **huge** aggressive army to our east. So 'rolling the dice' was my plan if it came to this situation during my reign.

The following *key* factor is in our favor. Persia is gracious to us. For whatever reason, there is no ill will at all. If (not if actually, we MUST) we take out the French quickly, the cities are ours and the Persians will, given their favor, back off. We will gain that territory, race to gunpowder, and stay on their good side at *LEAST* long enough to _stockpile_ musketmen in Bombay and the border cities. We'll also see soon if/where there is any saltpeter around, and must make sure we get/keep/protect it.

Interesting point on the area between Orleans and Paris. If nothing else, it might be a good 'sacrificial' city if war breaks out with the Persians. Interesting choice for the next king whether to settle there. As long as no war breaks out with Persians. The thought of 50 (or even 25) immortals storming Bangalore and Bombay is not a pretty picture.

Skandranon, I hope you're back around and ready. It's a decisive point in history. (If not, I'll be alert on deck)

Happy New Year to all in the game, AND to any lurkers out there :love:

Charis

Cy, my good friend, the answer to your worker riddle lies in what, to you, may seem an unconnected matter, but explains why you haven't developed a sense for what to do with workers: you never zoom to a city to manage WHICH squares are put into production. You let the automation handle it for you. And, like the workers, it can do a moderately competent job -- but not in all circumstances. Sometimes it's out and out inefficient.

For one thing, the automation is one-size-fits-all, oblivious of the effects of corruption. In cities with REALLY bad corruption, there's no point bothering with much of anything but food, yet it will still put workers on forests, etc etc, as if corruption didn't exist.

Getting into the swing of micromanaging may seem daunting, and it may not fit your style, but the largest share of benefit is to be had from the first bits of effort. After that, it's just shaving a little more efficiency off the top with more and more detailed paying of attention to finer points.

There are only three resources to balance (food, shields, trade), and there are only two conditions for dealing with them: despotism/everything-else. Then there is standard commerce vs republic/democracy, which provide an extra commerce in every square producing any. All you have to do is go in, look at which squares are in production, which ones are manned, and see if there is a better arrangement to be had. You're an IT professional, I know you can handle that.

Every city needs food. Some of our cities in this game didn't have much, and they need irrigation brought to them ASAP, and in some cases need to get some jungle cleared. However, Lahore, with several open patches of ground and no jungle right on top of it (which can cause disease) is not a good spot to start clearing the jungle. Madras and the cities next to it had a stronger need. Why? Because they didn't have enough food to keep growing quickly, and also because irrigation isn't available out at Lahore yet, and that's what it needs most. The automation places ALL priority on clearing jungles next to a city to reduce chance of disease. I do not. More urgent to irrigate or mine, and CERTAINLY to build a road, on the square just cleared, to make it ready for use, before moving on to clear the next jungle. Rather than halfway improve all the squares, you should concentrate on improving the best squares first, for the most part.

Early irrigation of any squares that can produce 4+ food (meaning 3+ under despotism) is a priority. Trust me, Charis won't be passing that up in favor of irrigating the desert in 3000 BC again ANY time soon. Count on that. :) 4+ food is limited to wheat, cattle, and flood plains, always worth irrigating. Mining the grasslands, especially those with shields on them, can be a top priority. The real key to efficiency is knowing what is needed NOW, vs what can wait. Having workers improve ten squares around a size five city, while size two and three cities have zero improved squares, is inefficient. Thus, to know what should be priority, you have to AT LEAST keep an eye on what the cities are actually using, whether or not you interfere and take charge of that aspect.

What I do, aside from logistical considerations (connecting cities, bringing resources online, etc) is to keep an eye on each city. Each city has a number of "good" squares (how good varies, but that's another issue), a number of "decent" squares, and most have a number of crappy squares that won't see any action until after Sanitation. You learn to spot the "good" squares, which certainly include grasslands with shields, anything near a river, and so on. Every city needs two things: food and shields. You need some balance in every city. Not enough food, grows too slowly. Not enough shields, grows too slowly (because you have to build stuff to keep growing). So I scope out the "good" squares, picking some for food and some for shields. A city with all grassland and just two hills and no mountains, those two hills are definite "good" squares that need to be mined. A city with all hills and mountains, two grassland without shields, and a couple of plains, food is the ultimate priority, irrigating everything that can be irrigated. Every city needs some balance, and it's up to you to create that balance. Some terrain can only be mined, some only irrigated, but most can be either. Cities with hills and mountains don't need forests, chop em down early when the benefit is worth the most. Cities with all flat may need those forests just to get anything built.

Efficient worker use puts workers into priority jobs, but it also doesn't waste time moving them all over the place. The AI won't stop to build a road on a lower priority square. It will move straight to its destination, wasting turns in the process. I can imagine doing that in only a very few circumstances, as the whole city will be in better shape sooner to build roads as you go. I almost never move into a square, then move out again without building a road. Not only is this conserving work time in the long run, but it prepares you to be able to move workers around among the higher priority locations on one turn. Most of the time, at least early, work is always a little behind the cities. Improving a lower priority square may still get the improvement into play and soon. So... if you have placed priority on that hills over there, you build a road across the plain to it, as opposed to some OTHER plains square. One plains is as good as another, as far as production goes.

As of my last turn, Delhi was still in need of more improvements, it had gotten ahead of the workers. Improving lands near the capital is generally more urgent because it means more: farther away, the improvement is more likely to be wasted to corruption, but you have to balance it. Every city needs at least a little attention, if nothing else a road.

In terms of city growth and production, there is a factor called "remainder". Build a marketplace at 100 shields, at 9 per turn, it takes 12 turns. At 11 turns, you've hit 99. On the twelfth you hit 100, with 8 remainder. If, on that last turn, you go in and change a grassland with 2 food and 1 shield to a forest with 1 food and two shields, you are effectively trading 1 food for NINE shields. Nine shields are worth 36 gold. Think about how much work it is to trade maps for 36 gold, and the fact that you can't do it but so often anyway.

Now say your city is building a marketplace at 9 per turn, and it has grasslands in use that aren't fully mined/irrigated. If you can mine, and get an extra shield in there at ANY point, you save a whole turn. Better yet, irrigate, grow SOONER, use the extra population on a square with more shields, and still get your marketplace built sooner. Manipulating city production to reduce waste from the Remainder adds up to a whole lot more than may first meet the eye. But you have to know what a city needs next: more food? More shields? More roads? And it helps even more to have a choice. To go into your capital and have the option to move two irrigated grassland to one mined hills and one mined plains, to shave a turn or two off some key production, or vice versa, to get the city to grow more quickly. It all depends.

To figure out decent orders for your workers, you have to pay attention to what your cities are lacking most at the time. Don't let the automation make decisions, it's lousy at doing so. That goes more for in-city production, which squares are chosen for the city to be working, than it does for the worker units. Those at least do useful things, which eventually comes around to being productive. Almost no improvement is "wasted", but if they spend time improving things that don't matter, while cities go wanting for improvements on the "good" squares they are actually using, well, that's a problem.

Usually, there are a couple workers in the vicinity of each area, or so it is with my games, and in this game. Thus, it's no big decision to assign them tasks. Often, the choice isn't urgent. You can improve this plains, or THAT one, and it won't matter. But whether you irrigate or mine, that may matter. If a city has three or four idle plains around, all irrigated, none mined, it can't swap to a mine for a turn or two to save wasting a large Remainder, or for hurrying along some top priority project.

Sometimes happiness is a problem, so you can run High Food to grow quickly to your ceiling level (past which, you would need to turn them into specialists, who eat food but make none), then when you hit that ideal level, swap off High Food to "break even" levels with more shields or trade in play. Swap back to more food when you've built more improvements, like cathedrals and marketplaces, which allow you to grow more. If you wait until the specialists are in play, that's food you can't take away and swap to shields, because you'll starve them that way.

And it IS important to clear jungles within one square of any city. Just try to have enough "good" squares fully upgraded first, so that the city is getting somewhere while it waits... and waits and waits (jungles are thick places).

Then there's strategic concerns, not like mining across a path you MUST lead irrigation through to get access to the water on the other side. Don't chop down forests when building wonders, as the shields are wasted. (Unless you NEED that square for food in an urgent way). I'm sure you have a better handle on that part, though, Cy. So take a look into the cities now and then. If not in your own games, here, where you need some idea of what is going on inside the cities to know what to do with our workers.


- Sirian

[Hope this does turn into another turn fiasco, but it's 25 hrs past Cy's post, and I want to keep the ball rolling. Apologies in advance to Skan if he's mid-game]

Whenever several dozen immortals are camped a stone's throw from your border,
the people turn to the pungent weed. In one such time, CharisGandhi IV, from the
infamous line of Charis, ascended to the throne. The world was in quite turmoil.
France was all but decimated, with alas, India helping to relieve them the
burden of managing the tundra. As pointed out by the illustrious and scheming
CyTheNervous, a stretch of land near Paris was eyed as a good spot for
religious pilgrimmages.

800 A.D. (0) - CharisGandhi IV ("Chareese") arises. Before the effects of the weed
set in and confusion reigned, Chareese micromanages production, max-ing shield
production in cities with +3food yet stuck at size 6. Thinking he's swinging
heavy, he changes the Bangalore production to settler!

810 A.D. (1) - The French take the worker gambit, and their archer is mowed down
by Jumboji. Golden Age!! (Are we ready for it? Well, FP comes online next turn,
we're at peace, and next chance to enter age if we skip French would be starting
a war with Persia.) Delhi production shoots up to 25 (!) shields per turn.
Higher production in Bombay, with one microshift to mine and we're down to 1 turn
instead of 2 :) Calcutta could now make an aqueduct in time to grow now, so we
switch from marketplace.

820 A.D. (2) - Forbidden Palace completed (my first one actually 'built'!) Bombay
Golden Era production 24 with NO waste, lovely. Bangalore has only 2 wasted shields
now, cranking out 18. It starts a colliseum.

Harkening back to the days of the insanely good trade. Chareese goes to the table
of diplomacy. He gets Education for Engineering with England, then panders those
two about. The insane part was 11/turn from Aztecs(Zulus?) Will they keep this up
for 20 turns? If not, let THEIR rep be spoiled, and them become Persian targets!

Tours falls to the archer and elephant, and the horseman rides in to help quell.
We set first order to workers, to get rid of that single populace figure.

Chareese gets another brilliant idea (? or... is it pungent weed?) With the
Golden Age and peace around us, solid trade deals, and the French gone, why not
go for 'We love the Mahatma day' everywhere feasible?! (While racing for gunpowder
of course) The luxury rate is pumped to 30%.

830 A.D. (3) - Nine or ten immortals pulled back away from Bangalore/Jaipur, confirming
they were just after the French (phew!)

840 A.D. (4) and 850 A.D. (5) - Quiet days, starting a few pikemen (you don't want to
have TOO few units) a University, and keeping up the Mahatma days.

860 A.D. (6) - Oh lovely! 13 Immortals climb the mountain of our new 'swinging' city,
Ganges. Ack! Start a few more Pikemen (upgradeable to Musketmen before long)
*MUST* hold off war until Musketmen arrive, and must NOT let Persians get Invention
or Gunpowder when we get it. (Hmm... what if they demand Invention?)

870 A.D. (7) - Hmm.. they're going OVER the mountain into Paris. Another 11 ascend.
Chareese wakes up the roaming boat before it triggers another "get out of here!" msg.
Chareese also looks over the defense situation. Gasp!! Our military is SO pathetic,
it needs bolstering ASAP. His fear is... we get Invention, get that demanded as tribute,
and either give in (getting them gunpowder faster) or deny (starting a war where no less
than three dozen immortals will descend on four towns with under a dozen defenders
in total). Chareese considers the backward (pungent?) move of SLOWING DOWN research of
Invention, to avoid getting Persia angry and demanding tribute. But... they have all
the prereqs and are no doubt researching it themselves. Pumping out extra pikemen now
for upgrade by cash later 'buys shields' nicely. The he wakes up, and presses on full
speed with research and Mahatma-ism.

880 A.D. (8) - Hmmm... not Paris, but Lyons, and past. The Persians are ignoring us and
sending Hordes down to America (!) I predict Persia-America war in half-doz to dozen
turns, and America may just be gone before the dawn of the milennia.
For us... Pikes, pikes, mahatma, all set to get Invention next turn.

890 A.D. (9) - We look into the wild mysteries of gunpowder. Lol... Paris is on fire :)
Good idea Cy!! Maybe next turn I'll rush the Ganges Temple and put more smoke on Paris.

900 A.D. (10) - Another peaceful day, as more Persia troops run south. Chareese is well
pleased with the star of India right now, and seeks to pass on the reigns to another man.
(Note on Mahatma-ism, NO cities have any unhappy folks, and we're in WLTK status.
This comes at NO loss in production, as we're tending to have over-run on shields
with the golden age running.)

No one should apart from hidden efforts arouse the wrath of the Persians at this point, although I don't think we have to fear anyone else right now, especially with Gunpowder around the corner.

Best wishes for the new year,
CharisGandhi

Opted not to burn Tours to the ground? :rolleyes: :smoke: And who was it gushing over those whales way back when?

Well, other than that, sounds good. Got it.

Is there a penalty for razing cities? I was under the impression that got you a bad bad rep. Besides...
i) it's *exactly* where I would place the city
ii) I expect the French to be gone within a short time and it can't revert back to a wiped out country
iii) there was only one person there, who can be made into a worker

So when is it better to raze, and was it better to have razed Tours?

Another question- is there any way to disband a city other than at time of conquering it?

Good luck!
Charis

"Another question- is there any way to disband a city other than at time of conquering it?"

Yes.

Turn all of the citizens into Taxmen, so you only have the square it was built on producing anything, thus no population growth (unless it was placed on a good square, in which case why are you razing it?).

Then train a Worker, and when it's done, it'll ask you if you want to delay production of the Worker until the city grows or if you want to disband the city. Obviously, you choose the latter and voila, instant raze with no reputation loss (if there is any to begin with).

Should add this, to make it clear:

By turning all of your citizens into Taxmen, it means that not enough food will be produced, thus your city will start to starve. So once it has hit size 1 or 2, you can train a Worker or a Settler respectively to disband the city.

Well it didn't ask me that. Are you sure a city can be disbanded under higher forms of government?

Razing cities BADLY angers the civ against which you commit the act, but others aren't much bothered. Maybe a little. We weren't going for a diplomatic win anyway, though, were we? So who cares if the French are furious with us for all time? That's not going to be much longer. Oh well.

Hocus, how can that city be in the perfect spot? It doesn't have either of the whales. I've already settled next to it, so you might as well leave it there now. Or not, if you prefer -- and can get it to disband. I couldn't. That option doesn't pop up for me -- if you or anybody knows why not, please inform me. I've taken to just razing any captured cities I don't want.

Charis: razing is what you do when you don't want the city or don't think you can hold it. I raze a lot, actually, though not always. Razing a LARGE enemy city will surely make them hate you forever, but I'm ruthless, since the game design rewards ruthlessness and penalizes everything else. Captured cities are too likely to revolt back. Once you burn em down, they are forever lost to the enemy, and it's a whole lot easier to capture enemy cities than to hold them, so sometimes the whole purpose of a campaign is to raze a particular enemy city or two and knock them out of serious competition -- just don't let your own cities fall. And that's the risk we face right now, as we are outgunned.

My report follows.


- Sirian

Chareese the Vain, that is what he is called in Calcutta, where the Yan family has risen once again to control of the Senate after the scandal in which Cirin-Yan suffered a heart attack and died during an impassioned, enraged speech about the "corruption" of doling out a third of the GNP on ostentatious celebrations. "We love the Prime Minister Day" indeed. The Vain is now in chains, indicted on 1732 charges of Corruption, Racketeering, Bribery, Forgery, and Weed Smoking.

30% luxuries during a Golden Age? DELIBERATELY FORSAKING A TECH LEAD because we don't want to "threaten" the Persian dogs????

:smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke:

(Love ya, Charis. :love: Happy New Year, friend). :rotfl:

Ciri-Yan the Young, only 21 years of age, has been elected to his father's seat and won the vote to preside over the Senate. Every last weed-smoking, graft-taking, corrupt "let's blow our huge surplus on 1000-Crown Hammers and 1500-Crown Toilet Seats" bureaucrats are OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT. Gone. Given the boot.

"We love the Vain" day celebrations are not great works worthy of India. Rather, a grand cathedral in honor of the TRUE Charis-King, the First, our beloved CharisGhandi of Bombay, shall be built in the city of Charis, while a grand Workshop wherein all manners of new Inventions shall be built, is underway in Delhi, City of Sirian. These works shall show to all the world the marvels of Indian culture, cleverness, and superiority.

The grand inventions we shall produce in Delhi shall see that our army is soon properly outfitting to deter the hordes of Persian dogs. We shall fear them no longer, one day soon. In the mean time, they are prosecuting a war against the English, and if need be, we could break our RoP agreement with the English and agree to a Persian alliance, which would keep the Persians adoring us for another 20 decades. If need be. I doubt the need will arise, as half the Persian army has sailed to the colonial lands and is quite busy wiping out the French and conquering the British colonies.

May the wildly bold schemes of Cy the Nervous pay off. I have continued to build cultural works in the Aggressive Colonies. I took that last settler north, where at least ONE of the whales shall be put to use. Why Charis spent gold to rush a worker, so I could sit around for eight turns watching the city do nothing, I am not sure. :smoke: I have left the city on worker production, but by all rights it SHOULD have been burned to the ground, and now we are stuck with it. Once the French are wiped out, perhaps start it building a temple, and let it develop the best it can. Certainly take it off the game square and give that to OUR new city, at some point soon.

After finishing some key buildings in some cities, I have switched most of them to building military now. We need a lot more forces, to put it mildly, and once the Workshop is ours, upgrade everything, but of course wait until then.

I urge a quick rush to democracy, an immediate switch in government, and then a race onto Steam Power, and if anybody SELLS AWAY our burgeoning and hopefully soon to grow tech lead, I vow to write many mean things about them. :satan:

Bombay is currently on short food. I'm NOT wasting 10% luxuries on ONE unhappy face. So let them eat from food storage until the GA ends, then put the food on Break Even and finish the wonder. We should also get at least one MORE wonder, if not two, out of the middle ages. Newton's certainly, and maybe one other, perhaps Magellan or Smith. The Observatory is lost to us, the Americans will probably get it. Of the French Wonders, Sun Tzu's would be the top priority. If we go to war with Persia, GET PARIS. We don't want every new unit they make to be veteran, if we can help it.

One last warning: horsie town also has stolen the Persian saltpeter unit. They have no other. They ARE going to want that saltpeter, and trading or giving them some isn't going to deter them. We need a HUGE buildup in that city, not at all costs, but certainly every leader from here on will need to consider adding units to that city, just don't leave Calcutta or Madras low on anything, that could also draw AI attention. Get some cannons/catapults going soon, too. It seemed higher priority to get more muskets first, but we'll need combined arms to fight off the Perisian hordes. IF we can keep them from getting saltpeter, we can restrict them away from muskets and cavalry, and have the edge by the Industrial Age.


- Sirian

Bah, I attached the file. Why didn't it go through? Let's try again.

Hi,

Sirian did a good job of explaining and giving advice on using Workers and micro-management. Even so, it never hurts to have more than one presentation and understanding of an idea. I may say some things that Sirian already has, but regardless, here is my advice:

How you go about assigning your Workers is never set in stone. Sure, there are good and bad ways to do it, but in my mind, the fundamental concept you must understand, above all others, is that you need to adapt to the situation. No matter what the game throws at you, you must be prepared to deal with it.

Early on, although you want a good mix of food and shield production, food is more important. Food means growth, which means more citizens to work on your lands, which in turn means higher shield production anyway. Just be careful with cities built on or near Flood Plains, because they often grow like a weed but are incapable of doing much else, so you may need to juggle the citizens around a bit.

An easy way to remember this concept is:

Food ---> Shields, but too much food is not always a good thing. Find a balance. No point in having a city that is big enough to sustain two Settlers if it takes 20 turns to train each one.

After founding my first city, I look at the city screen and see what tile the citizen is working on. If I don't like the placement, I shift it. After I'm happy with that, I work out how the tile could be improved, and go from there. Keep in mind that some people differ in how they improve their tiles, but this is how I go about it: Grassland? A road and a mine. Flood plains? Irrigation and a road. Grassland with cattle? Mine and a road. Grassland and wheat? Again, mine and a road. Plains with cattle? Irrigation and a road. Plains? Irrigation if possible, otherwise just a road will do, because you might find a source of fresh water in the near future and you will regret building a mine on a tile that could have had improved food production, as it is a waste of Worker turns.

Generally, I stick to this rule:

If Grassland tile, then build a Mine and a Road.

If Plains tile, then build Irrigation (if possible) and a Road.

Regardless of any bonus resources, this is what I tend to do. You may have noticed how I've made no mention of Forests, Tundra or Desert tiles. This is because I consider them *extremely bad* initial citizen placement choices, and do my very best to avoid them.

That reminds me - "wasting" a few turns here and there might not seem like that much, but they all start add up and the effects tend to compound. If you mine a tile when you should have irrigated it instead, that means it takes you all the longer to get to size 3 for a Settler, which then means you get your second city a few turns later than you could have, which in turn delays everything else that city and the first city (since in the delay it took to grow it could have trained a Warrior, for example) does. In the World it is said that, "Time is money," in Civilization 3 it isn't just that - it's everything else as well. It may be a turn-based strategy game, but don't let that fool you of its value for one moment.

That reminds me of another quote, "Knowledge is power," which is also true in Civilization 3, but that's another issue altogether.

Anyways, back to Worker micro-management. So, after improving that one tile with a road and whatever else, I begin to build a road to the site of my next city. I do this since for two reasons:

a) I'm going to want/need a road linking all my cities to my capital eventually anyway.

b) It means the Settler that is going to found that city will get there that much faster, giving me an important turn advantage if it is a sustained effort.

Depending on the distance, by the time the Worker has completed this task I have trained a Settler in my first city. So what does the Worker do now? Same thing he did in my first city -improve one tile in whatever fashion I choose, and then build a road to where my third city will be located. I continue to do this (unless I've founded a city that is entirely surrounded by hills/mountains/sea, in which case I don't bother improving the terrain) with the beginning Worker until I have no more cities to found, and then he goes back and improves the tiles of all the cities along that road. But he doesn't improve *all* of the tiles around each city for now, that'd be a waste of turns. He just improves whatever is currently being utilised and is expected to be in the near future (10 turns or less).

Of course, I don't just use one single Worker for this purpose. I tend to have cities (at the very least one) devoted to the purpose of cranking out Workers, until I start falling into economic negatives from the population loss/upkeep cost.

So now you have a large task force of Workers improving all of the tiles outside your cities, ensuring that they grow and produce as fast as they possibly can.

However, you may think that after all this is done, this large force of Workers is useless, until you can build Railroads. You wouldn't be the first person to think this. :) But the thing is, this is not the case, as there are many things they can still do. In my opinion, if you can't find a task for your Workers to do, you aren't thinking hard enough. :) You'll find there's *always* something to be done. Here are some examples:

1) Build a road connection to your neighbours, if not for the purpose of trading with them then for the purpose of moving troops as fast as you possibly can into their lands. ;)

2) Improve the tiles that your cities will utilise in the future. This includes tiles currently out of a cities cultural radius, as a Temple can quite quickly open up some valuable lands for utilisation.

3) Chop down Forests to quickly build infrastructure and to access more fertile land "underneath".

4) Build an irrigation connection from a nearby lake or neighbour to give access to cities that need it.

5) Once you get Engineering, plant forests on any Tundra tiles, as this so far seems to be the best way to deal with them.

6) Build more connections between your cities. This helps if your roads ever get pillaged by Barbarians or enemy civilizations, and the first connection you built is not always the fastest.

Upon discovering Railroads, they have plenty to do. However, don't fall into the trap of automating them. Automated Workers have a nasty habit of overriding your previously built terrain improvements, totally destroying your fine work. Use them at your own peril.

Anyways, hope this helps you a bit, Cy, I tried not to waffle on too much. :)

"Well it didn't ask me that. Are you sure a city can be disbanded under higher forms of government?"

I'm *sure* that I was able to do so, at least in Despotism. Testing will have to be done.

"Hocus, how can that city be in the perfect spot? It doesn't have either of the whales. I've already settled next to it, so you might as well leave it there now. Or not, if you prefer -- and can get it to disband. I couldn't. That option doesn't pop up for me -- if you or anybody knows why not, please inform me. I've taken to just razing any captured cities I don't want."

Of course you meant Charis, right? Given that he was the one who said it. :D

Anyways, I'll download the save now and have my turn. I think it's about time we got a tech lead happening, and some Wonders built.

1010 A.D. (1): Persians cancel the Alliance vs. the French with us, causing us to lose the Furs we were receiving from them. Xerxes wants Music Theory for Furs, and since it doesn't lead to anything, (besides J.S. Bach's Cathedral, which we've almost finished anyway) I accept. Gotta keep the people happy. However, I dare not trade Music Theory with anyone else, in case they finish the great Cathedral before we can. However, I fully intend to do so the turn it is finished. :)
Madras finishes Musketman, trains another.
Lahore finishes Musketman, trains another.

1020 A.D. (2): Our Golden Age ends. -65 Gold per turn now, so our science rate is lowered to compensate.
Kolhapur finishes Granary, trains Musketman.

1030 A.D. (3): Jaipur finishes Musketman, trains another.

(Note: after looking at our cities, I'm beginning to see how poor our defence really is. Sirian couldn't stress it enough, and neither can I - get it together. I'm doing my best right now, but the Persians really make me nervous with our weak defence.)

1040 A.D. (4): Ganges finishes Library, trains Musketman.

1050 A.D. (5): Chittagong finishes War Elephant, trains Musketman.

1060 A.D. (6): Bangalore finishes War Elephant, builds Catapult.
Bengal finishes Musketman, trains another.
Indus finishes Library, trains Musketman.
Tours finishes Worker, builds Courthouse.
Dacca finishes Cathedral, trains Musketman.

We discover Banking, we start research on Printing Press.

Banking traded to Americans for World Map, 15 Gold (Per Turn) and 50 Gold.
Banking traded to Persians for World Map, 12 Gold (Per Turn) and 50 Gold.
Banking traded to Aztecs for 8 Gold (Per Turn) and 20 Gold.
Banking traded to Germans for World Map, 5 Gold (Per Turn) and 15 Gold.

With the extra cash flow, science rate is increased.

Workers are shifted around in Bengal, more than halving its shield production, but greatly increasing its growth rate (from never to 10 turns).

1070 A.D. (7): Germans ask for a Alliance vs. the Aztecs, we refuse.
Calcutta finishes War Elephant, trains Musketman.
Lahore finishes Musketman, trains another.
Punjab finishes Granary, trains Musketman.

1080 A.D. (8): Madras finishes Musketman, builds Palace in preparation for future Wonder building.
Bangalore finishes Catapult, builds another.
Karachi riots, one citizen turned into a Tax Collector, Cathedral building there will be bought next turn, then citizen put back to work.
Hyderabad finishes Granary, trains Musketman.

1090 A.D. (9): Kolhapur finishes Musketman, trains another.
Cultural influence expands in Dacca.
Cathedral would have cost 180 Gold to complete in Karachi, so it is not done, as I feel that the Gold is better saved for upgrading in the future.

1100 A.D. (10): We complete Leonardo's Workshop in Delhi, trains Musketman.
Bangalore finishes Catapult, builds Bank.
All Pikeman that can be upgraded are, for 600 Gold. (WOOHOO!! Finally, we have *decent* defence. Our power rating should have gone up a fair bit, too.)

And thus my reign ends.

We're one turn off researching Printing Press, which means Democracy is not far off. Upgrading all those Pikemen to Musketmen has surely helped our defence, (well, since Ganges, Dacca and Indus don't have Barracks, even though they could really do with a lot more defence, it hasn't really helped them much =\) which is good news.

Jaffa should keep an eye on Bombay to ensure it doesn't starve, as it's not far off. Most cities are building Musketman, after that I recommend two Catapults per city near the Persians, if not more. The cities behind the "line" of Bombay should probably focus on infrastructure, my bet is Banks so we can ensure our science rate stays at a competitive level.

Good luck to Jaffa. :)

It seems that poor Chareese has indeed been indicted on 'smoking the pungent weed'. He mistook the location of Tours!! :eek: Had he noted it was NOT in fact where he wanted it, he would have razed it immediately.

GAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I hope you find a way to disband it Hocus :p

On the counts of bribery and being Vain, there too seems to be enough evidence to lock him up. And yet.... he claims it was a grand effort to dispel the ugliness of earlier generations of whipping. He had heard that WLTK days cut down on corruption after a few rounds. To check this, I replayed 840-900 on my turn with Mahatma-ism turned off. The result is inconclusive. There seemed to be a gain in about 4 shields no longer lost to corruption, but it could have been how there where shifted for city working. Corruption was the same in both cases, 62 or 63 gold lost.

Ok then, *WHAT GOOD* **IS** WLTK day? (It rocked in Civ 2, I couldn't picture it being THIS useless in Civ 3)

Mind you, at the end, the difference was four turns in the race to Gunpowder, so it wasn't SO hideous, and if those shield savings are real, perhaps even worth it. I'm not going to comment at this time at the effect learning Invention had on the Persians. (ie, the real reason for not rushing -- did it lead to sourness in Persia's attitude? More on that later if anyone remembers to ask)

Glad Siri-Yan helped straighten out this mess, and got us building some wonders. I didn't think we could afford that, but what better to go after, in your GA. Thanks too for the smileys in the slam. I *am* learning a ton from this.

Charis

*from the darkness, a voice sounds and echoes*

I LIVE...

*coughs*

(sort of)

Just plain forgot to check CFC after I got back. Silly of me. Then again, I need to go into my files and swap out a ton of stuff, so better that I get a turn when I have the time to do so. I'm working on a rather comprehensive mod, and to play an ordinary game of Civ3 without my computer crashing so hard the earth shakes needs a bit of work.

I guess I'll pop back in whenever "my turn" is. Just letting you know....I LIVE...

-Skan

Hey Skan. Hope you had a good holiday.

Charis: WLTKD is pretty much useless. I can't imagine going out of my way for it. It CLAIMS to lower corruption, but I've not seen any lowering worth mentioning. It supposedly helps resist cultural flipping, perhaps useful in a few rare situations, but better is a one-unit-per-population garrison, plus one unit. That's the only way to go for a big wonder-owning city you take over, even if you do plan to starve them down to size one and regrow from there (my usual plan). I used to use WLTKD for a MASSIVE growth in population once I hit democracy, but no more. I ignore it entirely now. We lost a whole tech's worth of potential research, celebrating We Love the Vain Day in India. ;)

With Hocus brokering our tech breakthroughs, it will be interesting to see what happens. I've only ever opened a wide tech lead when I don't give the bloody AI ANY techs, for any reason, unless they are inevitably about to trade them back and forth anyway. Anything to slow them down, will help. The sooner they get Music Theory, for example, the sooner they start researching Physics. What really hurts, though, is with this patch, that new bug where the AI can trade amongst themselves on YOUR turn, if the autosave has been used ever. I haven't used it in this game (no reloads, says Charis), but I did notice the AI brokering on my turn once, back in BC times. Somebody who didn't have Monarchy got it DURING my turn while I was brokering the Republic to somebody else. *sigh* At least Hocus got to sell Banking to everyone. I just hope their gold flowing to us slows them down enough. 15 per turn is only 300 gold, and that ain't much at all for a cutting edge technology. Maybe I'm just used to playing Emperor. The longer the AI sits in the middle ages, though, the more I like it.

I WILL trade techs, but I keep an eye on the AI bankrolls. If none of them have cash on hand, they can forget seeing any of my tech, even obsolete ones. On the other hand, if they have oodles of cash lying around, they will trade with one another the moment one gets a new tech, so I will do all I can to acquire their cash: brokering world maps, tech, luxuries, diplomatic treaties, anything. Because the AI's will just trade with each other and still get the tech, and give you nothing. They won't make costly per-turn gold agreements with each other, though. And since Hocus got per-turn instead of cash-on-hand, that's one situation I absolutely would not have brokered. I suppose I could describe my trading philosophy as "make the trade if they are going to trade anyway, otherwise no dice". Once ANY of them have the tech, if ANY others (they aren't at war with) get enough gold, they WILL buy the new tech. They may also trade luxuries for it, amongst themselves. AIs trading back and forth is not good for the player, but you can learn to spot when they can and will do that, and when they can't or won't.

One of the best reasons to grow large and cover a lot of territory, is that he who covers more squares of land gets to charge more for Right of Passage. So I use RoP to bleed away AI cash-on-hand to cut down on their tech exchanges with one another, and pull farther out in front. This, presuming the game is going well. Some of my Emperor games, I've been playing tech catch up well into the industrial age. Thus, skipping the early wonders in favor of building tons of settlers and spreading out can actually be worth more net gold in your pocket than a wonder like Smith's trading company, if you continually USE that size to charge half the world for useless RoP agreements.

Cy's Gambit is not something I would have tried, but presuming continued peace with Persia for another few hundred years, it will certainly have paid off in multiple ways, even though it seems unlikely to me, with Persia's strong total culture, that it will actually lead to direct city acquisitions.


Also... as for mining cattle and wheat... only if you can't irrigate them. Here's a writeup I made for another succession game I got involved in:


Irrigation vs Mining. Sounds like a simple equation, but as with pop rushing via the whip, it can be more complex than what shows on the surface. A lot depends on the rest of the land you have.

In this case, there are about five or six grassland with shields, plus the cattle, some grassland without shield, a hills, and several mountains. Presuming cattle first, then several grassland with shields in a row, for the worker, it goes something like this.

If you mine the cattle, you get one extra shield per turn. Period.

If you irrigate, you get one extra food. This reduces the time necessary to grow another size from seven turns to five (without granary, from four to three with granary). If, upon growing, you bring a grassland square with shield, mine, and road online, you would get another 2 shields and 1 commerce from that. If you get that two turns sooner, you've picked up four shields and 2 commerce, by the time the city would grow with the cattle mined.

So... after seven turns, with the cattle mined you are at +7 shields. With it irrigated, you are at +4 shields, +2 commerce. Ah, but the irrigated cattle will grow AGAIN in three more turns, vs seven more for the mined cattle. If you then bring another mined, shield and road grassland online, you get another +2 shields and +1 commerce per turn from the newly worked square. You then have four turns of this before the mined cattle version would catch up and grow. That's +8 shields and +4 commerce.

After 14 turns, the mined cattle are at +14 shields. The irrigated cattle are at +12 shields, +6 commerce, and will grow again in one more turn, after which, the extra shields from the extra population unit will SURPASS the mined cattle and pick up net gains from there on out, until a ceiling is hit where you need an aqueduct, hospital, or more happy faces, to continue to grow, at which point you could always go back and mine the irrigated cattle, if desired. Being on a river further adds to the commerce gains. Could make two turns difference on a discovery, that early.

Now I know it's not as neat as that, as workers may not have fully improved squares ready to come on line, or the land may be less ideal than this plot of ground -- and settlers and granaries change the balance -- but the principle still holds. It's not just a matter of mining=production. Also, once out of despotism, it stops mattering at all, as every irrigation or every mine, on a plains or grassland, is equal to any other.

I would have irrigated the cattle. I would also not have whipped the temple in Babylon. We bought eight to twelve rounds of culture at 2 per turn, and maybe as many as fifteen rounds of 1000-year bonus coming sooner, at 2 per turn. So for about 50 culture points (which will be ONE turn, in the final equation, assuming all other things being equal, which they won't be), we whipped, which bought us either 26 or 24 shields but cost us a population unit, which is 2 shields and 2 commerce per turn, uh, forever. Or thereabouts. Definitely worth considering whipping a temple at 60 shields, but just 30, you can build that pretty quickly in the capital. A lost population unit in some corrupt frontier city, no big deal, as the shields from them would be wasted anyway. It's a much more problematic action closer to home. The farther from home, the more worthwhile the whip. At least in a building game. If your whole empire is poprushing horsies and rolling across the land, that's a whole different situation, in which you never expect to get out of despotism and don't care about anything in your cities. If you want to build, the whip should be weighed in its true cost, which means looking ahead at the full scope of what is lost vs what is gained.

Then again, if the land were a little poorer, or a little richer, it would make the same difference as being more, or less, efficient. And the game can be won without perfect land, so it can also be won without heroic efficiency -- which is a good thing for me, because I overlook stuff all the time. In my turn on this game, I lost a turn at Ur for not paying attention to what squares were in use. Made a mistake or two in exploring, not paying attention to what was shore or not. No cities rioted, but I get that on a regular basis, every few turns one slips my attention.

So in the end, theorizing has its own limits. You got us off to a grand start, lkendter. Our position looks good and I like our chances. :)


Hocus's mine-grasslands, irrigate-plains philosophy is generally sound, especially for despotism situations. I still prefer my "Little of everything" method, with no rule of thumb. I am quite fond of irrigating half the grasslands and half the plains and mining the other half, so that instead of all these squares with two food apiece, I have some with three food and some with one, most with two, with a mix of shields, to choose several possible configurations, some higher on food, some higher on shields, and flop the situation around depending on the priorities. At times I will even run negative food to rush a HIGH priority project along, and go high food once it's done to recover -- just one example.

Hocus's admonition to adapt to the situation at hand is the best advice. No rule of thumb can work best all the time, thus why the automation is so inefficient.


- Sirian

Some thoughts, Sirian.

When I play Civ 3, I treat all the civilizations as one entity and play with the mindset that the AI is always against me. This may sound like a form of xenophobia, but it is justified. All the civs could be at peace with and trading merrily away with you, but when it gets down to it, they are ALL out to beat you. Not just one civilization, but ALL of them. If you don't trade with them while you can, they trade with each other when they can. And where does that leave you? By choosing not to trade with the AI, not only have you helped it, but you've hurt yourself; the effect is twofold. There is zero benefit for you in that situation, with the only disadvantage being a slightly less tech advantage, and that's if the other civs even choose to go down that tier of tech. They're going to trade tech with each other when they can anyway - there's no doubt about it, so why not benefit from the situation with that in mind? If you don't, they surely will. And this only advantages them and disadvantages us. For instance, in our current game, I traded Banking to all of the civs. If I was to go by your reasoning, eventually the AI would discover Banking and trade it amongst themselves. So... in exchange for them getting *one* tech slower, we've missed out on a lot of gold and possible techs. How does this help us exactly? If we are going for a passive victory, as long as we have better defence than the other civilizations, both scientifically and numerically, we're fine. And at the moment, that is exactly what it starting to happen. Most of our cities are becoming well defended right now, especially with the recent completion of Leonardo's Workshop, with more on the way. Our biggest (and closest) threat, the Persians, have just had their Unique Unit effectively negated by all of our Musketmen. Also, should they ever attack, our War Elephants will prove to be a huge boon - Immortals are not known for a high defensive rating. And when we get the right tech, they can be made into Cavalry. Gravy. Besides, their Immortals are all off fighting on other shores. And when they finally do come back, (IF they do come back) who is to say that we won't have Riflemen, or possibly even Infantry by then? In the near future, its entirely possible that Persia will be off waging its wars in Communism, and at the same time putting the other civs it wages war with into it as well. Meanwhile, we're sitting back in Democracy, boosting our defence and infrastructure, slowly but surely leeching their coffers when we throw them a bone every 20 turns, growing stronger by the decade. How can we NOT gain a large tech lead? And if they're in Communism at war, any techs we trade with them (besides military ones) are effectively useless to them. And better relations only aid us to that end even further. As for Music Theory, I traded that with one civ as I felt that one tech THAT LEAD TO NOWHERE was not worth possible riots in several cities and thus reduced production. Personally, I'm not in the business of hurting myself to hurt the AI; I'm into self-preservation. And trading the Persians Music Theory for Furs was an act of self-preservation, both militarily and economically.

In my mind, we are headed for a Space Victory, although this is certainly open to change. I sell off tech breakthroughs with a passive victory in mind. It's what I do if I'm going for one, since in my experience, selling off tech tends to help relations, and good relations is what you want for a Space Victory. Trying to achieve one with half the world at War with you isn't very nice. Also, should War ever be declared on us, we'll have a bunch of eager allies more than happy to help us out. Personally, I'd rather trade a tech or two for that kind of protection.

However, if you're worried that we won't have much of a tech advantage, consider this: if the AI is shelling out a lot of gold per turn (as it is right now to us, let alone what it could be paying off to other civs) it severely inhibits its ability to research. It has to pay for its units and buildings, too. So, at the cost of *one* tech per 20 turns, not only do we benefit ourselves, but we stall the AI's research rate, and may even further our own if they are researching down a different tier. I don't see the harm in that.

"15 per turn is only 300 gold, and that ain't much at all for a cutting edge technology."

Consider this, I think the current price for upgrading a Pikeman to a Musketman is 30 gold a pop. So 300 gold gets us 10 upgrades, which is nothing to sneeze at. But it's not just 15 gold per turn, since almost *every* civ gave gold per turn. That means a lot of upgrades, both now and in the future. If not that, then a pool from which to buy tech that we don't bother researching.

"AIs trading back and forth is not good for the player, but you can learn to spot when they can and will do that, and when they can't or won't. "

I'd like to know how to do this, because I sure as hell can't. Rather than take the risk and possibly miss out on some profits/risk helping the AI any more than I have to, I'm usually inclined to sell a tech that doesn't lead to anything important for the AI as soon as possible.

I realise you have a way you like to play, and you've found that it is extremely successful for you. That's great, more power to you. However, I also have a way that I like to play, just as Charis, Jaffa, Cy and Skan (when he finally does play :p) do as well. These varying playstyles are what makes Succession games fun, at least for me. There's no problem in offering someone some friendly advice if they've gone about something the wrong way, but not everything in Civ 3 is as open and shut as that. I feel that this issue is one of these. Be more than welcome to be stingy with techs to the AI on your turn, but I know what I'll be doing in mine. :) Unless, of course, I read something that convinces me otherwise, but again, I don't think that this issue is as black and white as that.

Happy hunting,

-Hocus

Hocus: If the AI's dont have cash, they don't trade with one another, for the most part. If one of the AI civs falls behind, falls out of the brokering loop, it may have trouble catching up, or never catch up ever, if it doesn't have something to offer in trade. As much as the AI's SEEM to play as a team sometimes, the fact is, they won't give away things of value to another AI civ for nothing at all. Each trading partner has to offer something at market value. So the others trade with one another, but not the slow civ, and it just falls further behind. This can happen to the players, and often does, if they are late to arrive at the grand trading orgy. But of course, the last civ to make a discovery gets it the cheapest, allowing even the most backward civs to maintain SOME semblance of parity.

Let's set aside the question of broker or not-broker for a moment, and look at Music Theory. Since the AI's will never skip optional techs, but research everything before moving on to the next era, I see your evaluation of certain optional techs as "useless" to be in error. Regardless of what the AI's can or cannot do with the tech, they will research it or trade for it. If you hand it to them, you ARE therefore speeding their total tech climb, just as much as with any other tech you'd give them. In fact, that AI would quite likely just broker the tech around to the rest of them anyway, unless they can't pay. So in that regard, whether you sold them Banking or Music Theory would hardly matter. The time to sell Music Theory would be right away, BEFORE we finish the wonder, when the tech is still highly valued. It deflates in value once the wonder is built, and we will either build it first, or not.

We may be on the way to a space race victory, but we may also not go that far, or not need to. Getting the tech lead and getting out in front by five, six, eight techs, starting NOW, would give us the commanding military and production edge, grant us every wonder we care to bother building from there on, and even allow us to eliminate or pen in any rivals we care to confront. That the Persians are at war with most of the world keeps them out of the trading loop and cuts way down on how much the AI would be trading back and forth. The rest of the civs are smaller/slower.

The thing is, rails are the end all production boost. Getting railways going boosts food, which boosts everything else by making for larger cities in many cases, also boosts shields, which makes for faster building of improvements that boost commerce. The growth explosion is geometric. The longer it takes the AI's to reach steam, the better. Getting there even just two or three techs ahead can bust the game open. I agree with you that, on paper, it LOOKS better to be the broker and sell to everyone, but that keeps them up with you, because they inevitably pay far FAR less in cash and gold-per-turn than it takes them to research, and on top of that, each one you broker to lowers the costs for the next in line, while if they are all stuck at the same level on the same research line, they are ALL stuck spending the max amount on research, then when one hits, it lowers the costs for the rest and they all hit the breakthrough the next turn, then line up to spend the max amount on the next breakthrough. Only if they research different things (rare) can they speed their progress.

If you are going for an early-date win, and care only about space race or UN vote, brokering all the way through gets everyone to modern age faster. I've never done that. I'm not comfortable with the AI having tanks and nukes. I'd rather win before they get to those. I guess I'm just aggressive. I can't much resist military aggression once I've got decisive production and technology advantages, which come with getting rails and factories, the more quickly relative to the AI's, the better. I guess it depends on the game, too.

From my perspective, your brokering plan looks solid. It will work just fine. But I believe you are looking at the immediate impact without following through on the long term impact, in evaluating the net gains of brokering, in the same way that whipping can buy a quick rush of shields but ultimately cost much more than meets the eye.

Every turn lost to the player on reaching steam is a turn lost of railroads. In that sense, brokering speeds us to steam by giving us more gold we can spend on science. We get a definite gain. On the other hand, the AI's are a tech closer to steam, as well, and at what cost? Are they really slowed in their research? Maybe a little. A whole tech's worth of being slowed? Not hardly. Even if we gain two turns (generous estimate) and they lose one, that's a net three turns, while they gain five to eight turns by being a whole tech closer. It's the net difference that really counts. How many turns behind us will they be, if we are stingy with tech, vs how many behind if we broker. You're looking at our immediate gains and seeing that WE are sped up, which is definitely true, but I don't think you are perceiving how much they are also sped up, and that the net difference is less. We get to rails a little sooner, but they get there a lot sooner than they would have, and that too then offers them, not us, more net gains. They get to hospitals sooner, as well, and start growing their cities beyond size 12 sooner, offering them yet more net gains.

True, if they are warring and swap to Communism, they're done for, as the AI starts whipping and drafting, and eroding its power base by eroding its population, which costs them permanently in the areas of shields and commerce. They'll never recover. But what if they DON'T swap to Communism? I've seen that happen. If they stick to Democracy, they can make up ground. They only need 80% of what we need to make a breakthrough, or build something, or grow a city.

It's a matter of playing philosophy, yes, and you can do whatever you please on your turn, but if you opt to broker away our research, you take a lot of options off the table for me or anyone else, just as much as if you (or any of us) commit to a war. The next player up has to deal with the war. Every move we make has impact on what the next guy, and the one after him, can do. All the players have to agree on some basics, as it just won't work to flip back and forth from despotic military rush to democratic production buildup, turn in and turn out. On some points, there has to be cooperation. Have I had more than my due influence on the total direction of the game? I don't know. Maybe. I've picked on Charis about a few points, probably him more than anyone simply because he goes in front of me, and it's his situations and actions I directly inherit -- picked on Cy for automating workers, nitted you about stuff, posted screenies with city location suggestions. I've certainly written the most, but that is just a function of my identity, not a matter of trying to be controlling. I've also not said anything about any number of minutiae I might have commented on, as I'm enjoying the diversity of the game. There have only been a couple issues over which I'm banging my head on the desk, and they are all surprises I've inherited from Charis where I look and wonder what he was thinking -- inevitably some finer point over which he was unaware, like the uselessness of WLTKD. I've tried to have fun even with that, though. Charis, I know, can take a little heat.

When it comes to the tech, my concept of conserving a lead would require unanimous cooperation, while your desire to broker some or all of the tech we get can be unilaterally enacted on your turn. Thus, you're in the driver seat with that, and I don't have much choice, do I? If you plan to broker away every tech we get on your turn, at least now I know, and won't bother to try to conserve a lead when it's my turn or write any more about that option. I'll just deal with the situations I inherit the best I can and pass the game on. Nobody has burned the down the kingdom while I wasn't looking as of yet, so I have no reason to worry in the larger sense. Well, except on Cy's turn. :lol: ;)


- Sirian

Thought I would try asking a question *before* it actually came up :P

Republic vs. Democracy. I've not yet used Democracy in Civ 3, although I'm highly aware of the distinctions in Civ 2. What's the difference nowadays? Folks seem pretty clear that burning to democracy is the way to go. I'ld just like to know the 'why' behind that. Will democracy help/hurt us in a war? Or do you hope to avert that for a long time?

An alternate option, which somehow doesn't seem to hold as much promise, would be to rush for Military Tradition and get Cavalry. With that plan, we get there first, build up a small army and quickly deploy them while all Persia's forces are mopping up America, taking the entire French subcontinent and estabilshing a base at Tarsus, a chokepoint, with about 20 musketmen defending it. (Not saying this is best or even feasible, but it is an option that comes to mind)

The problem with NOT having a goal of Tarsus is that our 'front line' is **so** wide, they could strike at several points, while we have Bombay strongly defended (which we must). The other bad side to this is that since these cities are foreign and far from their capitol, they will raze. So we won't get to 'revolt' them back, or take them back if we let one slip. We let a city slip, and it's a black mark on the earth. Indus and Ganges are one thing, but I would hate to see a razing on Bangalore, Calcutta or even Chittagong.

There's also the saltpeter factor. If we rule the French continent, we *own* the supply.

BTW interesting discussion between the merchants and the whip here :P I read each and think, hmmm... that makes sense. I support both the individual king's right to decide and the strong value in pointing out decisions that would unilaterally not make another option viable. One factor I don't think Sirian's paying enough attention to is short term tactics. Having a three tech lead on gunpowder is *HUGE*, while having a three tech lead on Education or Music Theory or Banking is nothing but a long term benefit (although that itself is significant). Gaining an advantage by USING the tech you have a small lead on (Musketmen or Cavalry) can have the biggest 'differential' advantage of all in the long term tech race. I'm rather glad to see the great increase in Musketmen and defenses since my last reign. This 'leverage' comes from recognizing that tech lead = your rate - rate_of_top_opponent. In a setting where countries are equals, it's likely not going to work, but in one where there is distance between 1-and-2 and the rest of the world, slapping down the other guy a few notches by using a short-term tech benefit may be beneficial.

Charis

PS I put you after me actually *hoping* for such detailed comments, whether they're whips or WLTK comments :crazyeyes

Democracy has two main benefits: worker efficiency increased by 50%, and the lowest available corruption level in the game. It's the lower corruption that provides the boost to commerce and productivity that makes it the desirable choice. For a Religious civ, suffering only one turn of anarchy, it's pretty much a nobrainer for improved buildup. The only real downer is quicker weariness, but you still get weariness under Republic, too.

In "running straight to steam", the question of cavalry is one more of production than anything else. One can get to Military Tradition without having yet researched Theology, although I've never seen it without at least having Education. Cavalry aren't much more expensive than knights (elephants). Still, at 80 per, and staring down stacks of fifteen and twenty immortals (which on my last turn, all started still on our continent, and at two per galley, they only moved about ten over to the colonial land) it was not a situation where I believed our production levels would or could sustain an offensive war any time soon. We might be able to beat back the frontier to Tarsus, but they DO have ships and could (and I believe would) flank around us, pulling Tarsus up short of the "perfect" bottleneck I think you are envisioning.

The AI doesn't tend to multitask its attacks. It sends all its available units in stacks after pretty much one city at a time. Our Aggressive Colonies might be targetted, but the Persians are more exposed than we are, in fact, with their captured cities. It would be interesting, to say the least.

If I hadn't seen the stacks and stacks of immortals, I might be tempted to nibble off the front of the Persian force, but it just seems to me that the odds improve for us as time passes. But on my last turn, if they landed a stack of immortals next to Lahore, for example, we'd lose the city. That simple. Just two galleys, four units, would certainly beat what we had there. I tend to be cautious about war when my lands are this scattered and exposed. Rails are never more vital than when you have to ferry a bundle of reinforcements to some unexpected distant corner of the empire.

Do you really believe eight or ten cavalry can handle the entire Persian offensive force, with 100% certainty? I've seen too many units lost to streaks of "luck" in the random number generator. As long as they are busy with wars, they are mostly building more and more units, too. You say immediate gains, but what about production and growth curve sacrificed to building more units? I say the Persians are occupied for the moment, let them be so. :)

War weariness could force us to shorten the war, but the Persians may not go along with that. If and when we engage them, we ought to be prepared for the contingency of a long war, since we absolutely don't yet have the force to press them back very far. Right now, relations with them are about as good as they get. Don't overlook the benefits to us of letting the strong AI's beat on each other over meaningless colonies. Now if they start to take over the English homeland, then we may have to act.

Wasn't the main point of Cy's Gambit to wage passive aggression through cultural pressure and takeover? If we were just going to try to conquer the French lands militarily, we shouldn't have built those forward colonies. Now that we have, I'm interested in seeing how Cy's Gambit plays out. If we go another four hundred years and none of those revolt over to us, well... we'll have our answer. :)

In the mean time, I don't think I followed your point at all about "Having a three tech lead on gunpowder is *HUGE*". How is it huge? What can you DO with gunpowder? Muskets are the most overpriced unit in the game. They suck on attack, they are decent at defense, but not as good as two pikes, which you can get for same cost. The main reason to bother with them is on expectation of upgrading one musket to one rifleman, instead of being stuck with two pikes you can't afford to upgrade. Three tech lead on gunpowder is of WHAT value? Defensive, surely, and getting the tech lead on Invention and building the workshop is grandly useful. But getting the tech lead to Education will then soon WIDEN your tech lead, as you build universities, or get the head start on Bach's Cathedral or Copernicus. Getting to banking sooner likewise can widen your tech lead, but selling banking to all your rivals gets their banks going sooner, and allows them to narrow the tech gap on you. (If you had the lead).

A three tech lead getting to chivalry pretty much never happens. If you pull that off, you've won already. So where is the military edge to be found? In getting to Military Tradition, or to the Industrial Age, first. Which is better? Depends. I could have gone for chemistry instead of Music Theory, but do you realize I had to put Bombay on building a new Palace for nine of my ten turns, to let it store up shields while I researched first Gunpowder, then Music Theory? I barely had enough time to pull it all off during my turn. How much benefit will we get from building the Cathedral, and also denying it to the enemy?

Everything is a tradeoff. You can do this, that or the other, and they all have different short term or long term benefits. We could have plunked down six or eight cities anywhere and whipped swordsmen out continuously, and fought in the ancient age, and perhaps even won. We didn't. We rushed to Chivalry, in hopes of securing a golden age and building enough ivory tuskers to deter the Persians from, uh, wiping us off the face of the earth. That part seems to have worked out. Going for democracy is just one possibility. Yes, it's longer term, but it also keeps our options open. If we commit to Military Tradition at all costs, we have decided to prosecute an immediate war the moment we get there. Can five minds as diverse as us wage an effective long term war across a series of turns, when we are setting out with thin forces that may or may not even be able to take out the enemy force if both were massed in one location? I don't know about that. What if one of us overlooks something and gets flanked, and we lose major cities? I'd feel a lot more comfortable in THIS game with rails under my feet, the ability to mass our (currently nonexistant) artillery to any given location to soften up the enemy or chase off their attackers from any city they advance upon, and having as much tech lead as possible to hold the production edge. That's one thing about archipelago maps: they spread you all over the place and make early wars more chancy.

Well, those are my thoughts.


- Sirian

I'm not going to be able to play for another 20-odd hours, so Skan could go ahead and take his turn now :)

Just wanted to clarify something, Sirian.

As I said in my previous post, and as I'll say in this one to remove any confusion, I do not intend to broker away all of our tech. I have tried that in testing games of my own and did not like the results. Even though their research rate is indeed slower, if you broker away all of your tech, you do it all for them!

So, let me further explain this philosophy of mine:

Instead of brokering away all of your tech, thus making any chance of a tech lead impossible, you only broker away some of it, at certain times. I *never* broker away techs that lead to a military upgrade for the AI, (yes, I do realise that indirectly this occurs, since it's one less tech they have to research, but if we trade tech with the AI, they're in exactly the same boat as us) and I only tend to trade one every 20 turns or so.

Here are the pros of doing this:

1. Bonus tech(s) every 20 turns
2. Updated maps (although this is fairly moot but mid-late through the game, as most land tends to be eaten up by then)
3. Gold per turn, which speeds your research for that period, and slows the AI down for that period. It also means they can do less upgrading/paid labour.
4. Lump sum; cash in the bank. Always good to have for the same reason we don't want the AI having it, upgrading/forced labour.
5. Good relations, this means less fighting on your territory and better deals for you.
6. Luxuries, like with our current game, where I traded Music Theory for Furs, since I didn't think the lost production from riots and having one less citizen working in some cities OR 10% luxuries was a good idea.

Now the cons:

1. It reduces the lead you have in tech.
2. Indirectly, you're helping the AI get to all the "good" techs, like Steam Power etc.
3. If you're going for a domination/conquest orientated victory, you want to be fighting the most obsolete troops you possibly can.

So to me, the pros outweigh the cons. I've yet to see an argument that convinces me that moderate (one every 20 turns) trading of tech does more bad than good.

Also, don't think for a minute that I'm just going to go off and do my own thing every turn, completely ignoring what the group wants and has previously set in place. This issue had only been discussed between you and I at the time, and since it was a draw, I vetoed it. ;) Jokes aside, if the rest of the group feels that me trading one tech every 20 turns to the AI is not a good thing, just speak up and I won't, with no hard feelings. This variety of game may be made fun by the actions of individuals, but the group has to live by (and die by) these actions. They should have a say.

-Hocus

In case anyone hasn't frequented the RBD board recently...

I'm trying to organize a 2nd RBD succession game. Please let me know if you are interested in joining. Currently we have myself, Sirian, and Carbon Copy signed up; I'd like to get at least 1 more before starting.

I haven't decided on a civilization yet but I'm leaning toward Japanese (for no particular reason) but I'm willing to listen to suggestions...

I thought all these names looked familar :) I played d2 a fair bit until a bit after lod. Lurked on the lounge and read nearly every tactic/idea on every site.

Ive just been following your game. Looks like alot of fun playing this way, and a great way to learn more about the game a different way. Im learning alot reading through everyones thoughts, ideas and decisions at different times. Especially without defining how the group plans to win at the start!
I think the tech trading issue is a decision based on how you see your civ in the future and how you plan on winning.
space/culture/diplo its easier to justify trading than domination/conquest.

Is there any way to tell what an AI civ is researching? and do they offer less for a tech if they are only a few beakers away from learning it? If possible this would be the best time to trade as they would start their next tech from scratch and kinda paid twice for the one they just got..

-zedar

In a bizarre turn of events, ancient prophecies unexpectedly turn out to be completely accurate, and the little-known Cult of the Monkey is vested with executive power over the Indian Republic. Panic ensues amongst the Cult members, all four of them, who would really rather have been left alone quietly tending to the sacred monkeys in the temple gardens.

And so it came to pass that a wandering minstrel who happened to be sleeping at the temple was unceremoniously inducted into the Monkey Cult, bundled up in a cheap monkey suit, and thrust into the political spotlight.

"Huh? What? Oh .. ummm .. right! We should go to war with Pakistan! At once!"

"What do you mean, you never heard of Pakistan?"

"Well, ummm. Maybe it was a dream, then. Ummm. Okay! War with Persia it is!"

"No? But why can't we go to war with Persia?"

"Oh, right. We're at war with France! Very well! Send our troops to the front line!"

"Ohhh .. ummm. We're at war but we're not actually doing any fighting? Ummmm..."

"Oh, forget it. Just summon the dancing girls, and let me know when I need to sign anything."

The chronicles of the years of the Monkey King, as foretold by ancient prophecy.

Renegotiated RoP agreements with everybody we had them with. English pay 34 gold + 4 gold/turn. Germans pay 3 gold/turn. Americans pay 50 gold. Zulus will pay only 1 gold. Bah. I think it's worth it to keep them polite, though.

Did you know you could upgrade troops from the Military Advisor screen? I didn't :)

1110AD Zulus land a settler+impi team on the island where our spearman is.

1150AD We finish Bach's Cathedral :) Karachi and Lahore mysteriously go into unrest, despite having more happy than unhappy citizens in the city zoom view :confused:

1170AD The Zulu settler and escort have disappeared off the island. Apparently they changed their minds about settling there.

1190AD We become a democracy :) Persians finish building Copernicus. We buy Astronomy from the Persians for 95 gold + 4 gold/turn. Should guarantee they're not going to attack us for at least the next 20 turns.

1200AD Game crashes. If we weren't reloaded from an autosave before, we certainly are now.

Lots of our cities underwent cultural expansion :)

What wonder is Madras saving for? Magellan's? Newton's?

I finished upgrading all our spear and pikemen to musketmen.

Most of our heartland cities got switched to infrastructure work when they finished the current round of military. Frontline cities are still on musketmen or catapults.

The French are still hanging on in Avignon, and the Persians don't seem in any hurry to finish them off. Should we make peace with them? Or assemble an expedition to wipe them out ourselves?

Got it. Should be able to finish tonight.

Skan, you are on deck 8-).

--Cy

Sleepy times in the big purple.

Basically, erm, nothing happened 8-).

In 1230 Xerxes came calling, asking for a ROP and alliance vs the English, which he has been in a phony war with since way back when he hit the French. I certainly don’t want war with the English, but the ROP looked appealing. I can auto-send troops on redeployment missions without having to micromanage them turn by turn to ensure they don’t wander into Persian territory and the next thing I know I’m getting an angry message from a pissed off Persia. I also, AS YET, have not been back-stabbed by the AI taking advantage of a ROP, so I hope it might encourage the Persians to work out their aggression issues on someone else’s doorstep 8-). The whole thing was silly, really. I mean, what did Xerxes expect us to do against England? Line up all our war elephants on the coast and moon them? Load up two units on our one galley and assault an entire nation in a pathetic amphibious assault (that would be sunk on the way, anyway)? If it was a human player, I would assume the idea was to draw the English to him by setting us up for the English to attack us, then, once half our cities were taken, he could use the ROP to rush in his army, and retake the cities for himself (without having to risk a counter-attack), but I don’t think the AI is that cynical 8-0. Oh well, I passed on the war bit but took the ROP, so we are still buddies with Persia (gracious) and have a ROP with them.

In 1265 Persia finally finished off France, and pulled an army I didn’t know was there out of Lyons and sent them somewhere down into the Persian interior. About this time the Persian shipping traffic really picked up too, so it looks like Xerxes is about to set off on another round of colonial wars (or is actually going to fight the English). This is a good thing, but Persia’s days as a threat are numbered, anyways 8-). I still haven’t seen a Persian unit more modern than a knight, and mostly just see Immortals. His tech lead is slipping and his treasury is empty. He’s still dangerous now, but his sun is setting in the face of modernization. Come the modern age, I can take everything west of Tarsus in 1-2 turns, and Tarsus, which was a great strategic point FOR him in the Ancient Age, is gonna turn into one hell of a bottleneck in the modern edge against him.

Ok, on to odds, ends, and notes.

We, erm, have a new city (cough, cough). Sorry. It was basically a throw-away-waste-of-resources city I slipped in to (1) take some pressure off of Ganges, which is now getting more cultural pressure than it is giving, (2) help protect those furs, which is the only valuable active thing Ganges is doing, anyways 8-), and (3) grab a little more tundra in case of oil. Speaking of Ganges, I pulled all but one unit out of when the Persians were really pushing it hard culturally, it may be stabilized now though, evaluate it and do as anyone sees fit. Sirian: I love the old culture gambit, but you have to pour it on and keep the pressure up to start flipping cities, which just isn’t gonna happen in a team game with different styles, and that is ok with me. Ganges was a gamble all along, which is why I asked about it instead of committing, but Dacca and Indus were dual-purpose and so I felt almost ok about just plopping those down 8-). Dacca was just a good site. It could put pressure on Paris, strip away some of it’s best production land, including a bonus food square, and claim some mountains in case of coal. Indus is a guard post. We get to see every unit Xerxes moves into our area. It is also an AI magnet—I’ll bet a dollar that if Persia attacks, they idiotically hit Indus and Indus alone the first turn. That gives us some reaction time. Taken as a sum, they also moved the front line off our front doorstep and away from our core cities. So, smugly enough, I’ll feel the expansion was ok even if no foreign cities ever flip.

Oh, speaking of Dacca, that baby is turning out more production than I anticipated. It’ll need some worker attention before it has the next pop.

On tech trading: well, on my solo games (emperor diff) I just about never have a tech lead to trade away. When I get one, I’ll trade it unless it is a key one, then I’ll hold it just a few turns and trade. Why? I’m always in turtle mode until the Modern Age, and if I don’t trade it I’ll just get one of those nice “Give me the tech or die.” messages from some big bully, and I’ll have to give it up for free. There are only two essential techs in the game, anyways (IMHO, of course), steam power and the laser. Steam power means your smaller, but completely up to date army can really give a huge AI army of all kinds of odds and ends fits (I love it when the same AI army has tactical nukes and bowmen). The Laser means you are going to win 8-). The rest of my short list of crucials are nationalism, sanitation, replaceable parts, motor transport, and computers. The rest of them are just stuff in between in my world 8-). (Can you tell I get a tad aggressive in the modern age?).

Oh well, Might India rumbles along like herd of hungry racing war elephants heading for the barn.

There are rumors of a new face being elected the next president 8-).

--Cy

ps—Skan, check your science slider, a tech is about to pop and I have it pushed down to get the gold for the extra science this turn.

Pps—what wonder are we shooting for with the city saving shields? I think we could get newtons, if we want it.

Got it.

(pause)

No, really!

-Skan

Originally posted by Cyrene
Oh well, Might India rumbles along like herd of hungry racing war elephants heading for the barn.


Well, okay. Just so long as I don't have to clean up after them :)

Skan... are you done with the turn or need more time?
We're targetting 24hrs to see the orig post, and 24 more after "got it". If you've not played yet, bump it, or if you need a little more time, say so.

Thanks :D
Charis

I said I got it! There was a little delay as I rooted out and mercilessly squished the source of a repeated crash, but I finished.

Anyway.

Due to the introduction of a most interesting new innovation, the "butterfly ballot", sixty-seven percent of votes cast in the upcoming Indian general election end up going for the candidate of the Hippopotamus Party of India, a fellow named Igflutz. The Supreme Court confirms the vote.

Igflutz, who founded the party while he was slightly inebriated, had no idea what to do, but he had PR advisers to help with that. They advised him to pick a more public-friendly name. After scouring libraries across the country for a suitable name, Igflutz took to a name in a fantasy book (while only slightly drunk) and he became President Skandranon.

After doing virtually nothing while in office, and getting involved in a scandal involving files, fire, and the Monkey Cult, he does not even run for the next election and the Hippopotamus Party returns to fringe status.

Thankfully, historians note, nothing of significance occurred during his term.

1280 - The scientists of India discover Physics. Bombay finishes the University of Bombay, changes to building a Bank. Many Persian ships sail through our waters, heading for the English mainland. Much movement of workers.

1285 - Shaka decides he no longer wants the Right of Passage agreement. His price to take it on once more is Physics, which the President rejects as unduly steep. Bismarck also calls to cancel the Right of Passage, but agrees to a new one, with no significant terms attached. Much movement of workers (hereafter abbreviated MMOW).

1290 - The Persians take Coventry. Zulu ships poke around the edges of our territory. MMOW.

1295 - Indus completes a Musketman, which is fortified along with the other eight. It begins another one. MMOW.

1300 - That large Persian army which moved into the interior some turns ago moves back in India's general direction. MMOW.

1305 - That large Persian army goes back the other way. Persia wins a sea battle against the English near their waters. MMOW.

1310 - English retake Coventry. India discovers the Theory of Gravity. Madras is switched to Newton's University. Shaka comes calling for a map switch. His price for a RoP is checked, and having now dropped to 4 gold per turn, it is agreed to (Zulu ships lurking around the sides of our water and all). Physics is swung to the Persians for Economics, Navigation, and 23 gold per turn. They can't really trade it to anybody anyway, and it IS a rather sweet deal, though I am not sure of how wise that was in hindsight. Perhaps I should have waited? As usual, MMOW.

1315 - The English land a single knight north of Rheims. The Persians move their army toward India again. MMOW.

1320 - Shaka comes calling and demands Chemistry because he's bigger and stronger. He is told to buzz off, and he does, respecting our courage, no matter how substance induced it may be. The English knight attacks Rheims, and withdraws. It moves inside our borders, but that doesn't matter much. MMOW.

1325 - Elizabeth cancels the Spice deal without so much as a diplomatic notice. I leave the renegotiation (or not) of that deal up to my successor.

Same thing with the sleepy times as Cy; nothing big happened, made sure we were nice and comfy and on warm-fuzzy-smiley terms with everyone else so we could build in peace. Delhi eventually began churning out war elephants for lack of anything else to do, and as a just-in-case against Persia. Jungles were attacked in large numbers, large preserves of forest were built in the north. Pretty standard stuff. Mined every uncovered grassland, microed some city management for improved efficiency (one city was doing 2 shields a turn, 83 to Aqueduct, and after juggling it went down to 14 to the Aqueduct). Watch that one though, if it doesn't change worker settings it'll build an Aqueduct and have no food to go to size 7. Don't recall the name offhand. Anyway, just another turn in the roll of years...

-Skan

1325 AD (0) - A solid term under President Skandranon ends in peace and relative
safety, under what would call the "scholastic era" (so many Universities started).
Alas, the students turn (once again) to the "pungent weed," and these liberals
end up causing a small revolution. CharisGandhi V comes to power, and surveys the
situation. He sees no one else is building Newton's, and it should be a nice addition
to Leo's and Bach's, as we catch up in wonders. The advisors tell us that our
military outnumbers the English, Aztecs, and Americans, is on par with Germany and
Zulus. Research-wise, we have a huge lead over the lesser countries, and are on par
with Persia, and slightly ahead of the Zulus. The pungent leaders things that in
one matter his predecessor too loved the weed! Taking Nav and Econ, which gives us
*nothing* we will ever, ever use or build, for Physics, is surely borne of the weed.
(The former are 'optionals'.) CG5 notes that with Metallurgy done in 2 turns, we need
only Magnetism to hit the industrial age, but are also one (optional) tech from
Calvary. He calls together his advisors...

We can get to Calvary dozens of turns before our foes, and with Leo's, upgrade the
elephants to Cav for peanuts! We can sweep Persia clear off the French continent
in at most a half-dozen turns, and seal up the border tigher as a drum at Tarsus!!
This is firmly within our power to do, assures the Military advisor! We can cripple
our only real threat, knock them down to number two slot in the world, and with our
economic and science base, dominate the entire future! If instead we WAIT until they
are done with their wars, they will have their entire army ready to deal with our
late attack. The king was starting to be swayed by this, but then a quiet man, a
student of the Siri-Yan dynasty, who says this is folly! We are not in danger from
Persia, our defense is strong and sure, and instead we should focus on building ourselves
while they squander the middle ages in combat! The Industrial age brings Steam Power,
Sanitation, Industrialization. If you want to talk dominant combat, talk Tank.
The military leader barks "This SQUANDERS our mighty war elephant development! If
we want to use, them, we must do it NOW, upgraded, while they have no force or tech
to oppose us. If we wait, we'll be on the receiving end of Calvary, and our cities
will be razed! The follower of Yan notes... we have 48 (!) Musketmen and 11 jumbos.
Add to that 11 swordsmen, worthwhile only for peacekeeping at home.

What will we do chief, what are our goals for your reign?!

1. Completion of a scholarly expansion, which will help us gain (and KEEP!) the
techs of the future. These must NOT be traded away again.
2. Do NOT ignore barracks, Musket and horses. It is hoped that the military advice
here to Cav-blitz the Persians off our continent will be implemented by another, soon.
3. Lead us into the Industrial era.
4. Revitalize the Tundra with a forestation program.
5. Cave in to the demands of no one. Let he who declares war on India soon learn
the utter hopeless folly of his insolence!
6. Maintain "Polite" status with all, subject to point 4. Let trade be strong.

So he surveys the situation. Notes Bombay is on "Pre-Wonder" with Palace. Puts to
Smiths, noting our maitenance costs are huge, and it's a 3 culture/turn item. Still,
if a better wonder becomes available before that's done, feel free to switch!
(Looking at wonders ahead, there's really nothing til Darwin, so I think if
some other country gets Smith's first, we'll lose the shields one way or another.)
The city management and production choices seem in GREAT shape, Kudos to President
Skan. Almost nothing needs to be switched. On the trade, Spice was available from
the England, but at exorbitant amounts. CharisGandhi will NOT trade knowledge for spice.

1330 AD (1) - Sign up Dacca for a Barracks, with University planned next.
We lose our Wine supply from Persia, and we note Germany announces incense.
At a cost of 20 gold/turn, we look and see that due to splendid forethought
in Cathedrals, we do not need their wines anymore. Weed, not wine, cry the people!!
To the Germans, we can trade our excess Ivory and get the incense for about 100 gold,
so this we do, to make the people even more happy.

1335 AD (2) - Calcutta finishes harbor, starts University. Karachi finished Library,
starts Harbor. Bengal finishes Cathedral, starts library.

WHOA!! Something never seen in all the annals of the history of India
has anything like this ever been seen!! "Oh great CharisGandhi, the people of Ganges
have risn up in revolt and pledged allegiance to the Persians! However, the Persian
government refuses to acknowledge their claim! Thus we have regained control of Ganges!"
Incredible! We had a city flip, but they 'refused it', letting us keep a solid city
of 8 with rising culture! Metallurgy is complete. The huge omen that has happened this
turn shows that this is NOT the time to turn and wildly attack the Persians, so
finally CG5 decides... Magnetism, not Military Tradition, for the people of India.
The great people of the Ganges were saved, not by Military might, but by learning
and culture. So let it be written, so let it be done! (Aside from Charis: Phew!
I hate the arbitrary nature of flipping. That city has nuthin but cultcha in it,
with *NO* unhappy people. How it could pledge allegiance to Persia, and we have NO
chance to do ANYTHING about it kinda sucks) The one thing we probably CAN do to
help avoid flipping (but alas not completely avoid) is to garrison better. We did
only have one mil.unit stationed there. Four more are sent (older ones ;P)
Spending is pumped to reach Magnetism in 5 turns.

1340 AD (3) - Cathedral finished in the hot spot Ganges. Barracks slipped into the queue,
with University lined up next. Workers note that with Tundra, Forest (1-2-2) beats
mined Tundra (1-1-2) while with Plains, the mined plains equal it (1-2-2) but give
the flexibility of going irrigation for more food, plus 10 shields in clearing it.

1345 AD (4) - Zulu armada of 4 ships float PAST Delhi and up north (phew). Bangalore
trains a Jumbo, and starts a Canon. Upgrades a few Cats to Canons, for just 20 gold.
A seer sees the future, and sees these Canons one day protecting Tarsus of India.

Interesting thought. Newton's is due to finish next turn in Madras, and Smith's in
Bombay in 27. If we SWAP what they work on, and max shield production, that would be
14 turns to Newton in Bombay and 16 to Smiths in Madras. No one else has Theory of
Gravity. If no one does within 14-16 turns, ALL Smith shields in 3 foes will be lost!
The question in this gambit is, how close are the Persians, Germans and Americans to Smith?
Actually, perhaps a more important issue. Newtons gives +50% beakers IN THE CITY
it's built. Bombay has more, but Madras has no Univerisity yet. CG5 does not wish to
rock the boat too much, for his forefathers were run out of office, accused of
weed abuse in the past because of this. (Besides, we could produce the culture rich
Universal Suffrage if we build Newton at Madras, and get beat to Smiths at Bombay. I
doubt we could hold out making Palace at Bombay until Theory of Evolution, but it's
possible if shifted OFF max shields)

1350 AD (5) - Between turns, our ROP with Germany ends, and Persia ends theirs too. Huh?
Now they're annoyed. NOT good. I butter them up to cautious and plan to give them
World Map as a freewill gift each term to keep them calm, at no cost to us.

Newton's University built in Madras. Bombay will end up with Smith or Suffrage.
Chance of losing Smith is too great to build another placeholder at this time.
Delhi, will essentially all improvements already, takes the opportunity to build a
Settler which we can use later to found or to add to city (after Sanitation).
Jaipur completes Aqueduct, hits 7, and starts Library.

1355 AD (6) - Work done in Indus, slip in a Barracks. Dacca finishes Barracks, starts Univ.
Persia is back annoyed. (Is it the new presence of extra troops in Ganges? Or have
they finished their current war? I've not seen a time when they're NOT at war, so
if they come to peace with England, know we're next, and soon.) He has magnetism
too, but is lacking Theory of Grav and xxx (which we have). Maybe it's jealousy. Those
two things keep him in the Dark Ages, while we flourish in the Industrial era.

1360 AD (7) - India enters the Industrial era! Magnetism is discovered. Although Persia
is annoyed, I stick with Steam Power. (The urge to insert Mil.Tradition is very
strong! It would only take 5 turns to get!) Punjab, finish Marketplace start Univ.
Ganges finish Barracks start Univ.

Dehli Settler is Fortified in Delhi.

The dueling advisors come to see CharisGandhi, their level of irritation much
greater. "RIFLEMEN!" screams the military advisor. "If we wait, our jumbos will
bite down on Riflemen. If we act RIGHT NOW, we can get Cavalry before they
reach Nationalism. After that our window of opportunity is GONE. Do you realize that
Persia is Scientific?? Once they hit the new era, they'll get a MAJOR new tech,
for free?! And they're not far from that era!" The industry advisor pointed out
that we're the leader in the new era, why look back? Now is a time for infrastructure
with the opportunity to build factories and railroads and hospitals. Do we REALLY
want to blow that great opportunity churning out more jumbos and musketmen??"

CharisGandhi went to smoke some weed.

Then he realized why Persia (and England) were annoyed. Those trade agreements. The
ones we let lapse due to high cost? Could it be that if a trade agreement is possible
but not taken, they'll get very annoyed? Do they not say on the screen "can our
countries not trade together to enrich both?" This would be easy, although costly
to test. We could accept Persia's offer of Wines for 500 gold. (Downside, if they
go to war next turn that's 500 lost gold. Upside is huge if this is the only thing
keeping them from anger and us from a pair of decades more peace.) What if he used
this cash to buy the techs he needs?

If nothing else, his ancestors were diplomats. CG the Fifth went once more to the
table. He offered 479 cash to trade for Persian wines (yuck...) Polite! A huge
happy smile spreads across Xerxes face. "I had thought you were disrespecting our
fine wines. I am now much relieved!"

1365 AD (8) - A collective sigh falls over the land, and peace is expected for many
years to come. That sigh turns into a cheer when "Persia and the Aztecs sign an
alliance against England... Aztecs declare war against England!... Persians set
sail for England" Just before that an annoyed Elizabeth wants to terminate a ROP
where she paid 4 gold, and turns polite at a straight ROP agreement. Oh gosh,
could THAT have been why Persia was annoyed? (Lack of ROP?) If anyone knows in
more detail how ROP and/or trade agreement affect 'attitude', let me know :P)

1370 AD (9) - Pasargardae of Persia completes Smith's Trading Company.

1375 AD (10) - A quiet year where the most action was seen by tree planters.

Thus ends the quiet reign of CharisGandhi V. :p

-- Charis

When corruption abounds, Yans make their rounds. Cities ruled by Law and Order do not attempt to secede from our Union. As the Ganges investigation deepened, the taint of scandal fell upon the Charises once more. Seer-Yan swept into office in a landslide vote on the promise to "Clean up this awful mess". The usual Yan platform was bandied about, and while the country is generally indifferent, at times of scandal, they always turn to the one party with a proven track record of enacting effective law enforcement. At least until the crisis passes.

Ganges? Well, duh, of course the citizens there are upset, as the governors (with the blessing of the lacksidaisical Senate majority) build libraries and cathedrals filled to the ceiling with propaganda from the liberal wing of the government, while crime runs rampant in the street and Persian "tourists" lure our people to unrest with talk of their harsh ways of doing things.

The solution is mind-bogglingly simple: BUILD COURTHOUSES. The Yans have only been saying this for, oh, what? About two thousand years now??? Heh. Clean up the streets and the people will be more content and more productive. Rooting corrupt elements out of the government in particular is helpful, and those who would foment revolt are left with no dark dingy corners in which to rut and strut unchecked. As Yans have been saying without pause, "We don't need new laws. What we need is to enforce the laws already on the books!" In easy times, people don't seem to care, or at least those in this city don't care about those in THAT city, with each Senator vying only for local interests, and pork barrel money. "Build a new barracks here in OUR city!" "Plant us some trees!" "Close that old mine and irrigate these farmlands!" "Open up a new mine, we have too many farmlands!" "We need lumberjacking jobs, lets cut down every tree within a thousand miles!" On and on it goes, until a Yan rises to power and sweeps out all the scandals.

Courthouses! By order of the Senate, so it is written, so it shall finally come to pass: a courthouse in EVERY city in the land!

500 gold for a luxury??? The Vain, oh the Vain. If not ostentatious expenditures on celebrations, the line of Charis ends up paying full retail price to our rivals the Persians for... a few shipments of wine??? Well the deal is done, but the Yans intend to offer legislation strictly regulating cash for luxuries. Polls show that 71% of voters would prefer that more investment be made into research and invention, and less into fattening the wallets of Persian merchants while Charis-Senators secretly toke on their stash of ILLEGAL pungent weed. :smoke: Bloody liberals! :spank: For goodness sakes, if you have to give SOMEONE cash, pick anybody BUT the Persians. (This, strictly off the record, as we don't wish to anger our "friends" in Persia).

The Yan platform, in a nutshell: Courthouses, Factories, Reforms.

Yada yada yada, a century later, every city in the land now has a courthouse and is building in preparation for factories, as soon as we have worked out the kinks in the prototype models. The hungry folks in front line cities have finally been allowed to build granaries. Fishing towns are working on harbors.

Our rail network through the difficult terrain near Bombay is more than half-complete. Some new workers have been hired across the land, and railroad engineering schools have been opened in Jaipur, Chittagong, and Indus: these sites are expected to graduate skilled laborers on a clockwork basis for the next century at least. (Surplus workers are NOT a problem, they can be rejoined to cities once rails cover every square mile of our land, unless they are needed for Pollution duty). The Senate has passed legislation supporting these schools, and experts agree that this program has been designed with the usual Yan efficiency, meaning it will do what it promises if left alone. Whether the Senate will one day repeal these laws in favor of something else is out of Yan control.

Fishing Village has been founded. Apparently, when some school kid did a research project on the great Sirian at his local library in Delhi, he came across a copy of the Settlement Plan and noticed that one of the cities Sirian suggested for what, at the time, was the distant future, had never, in fact, been constructed. This made the papers, and the Senate got into another uproar. Well what better use for the settler group outfitted by CharisGhandi V? SURELY CharisGhandi did not mean for those settlers to sit around being paid on the government dole for doing NOTHING AT ALL for the next few decades? Right? ... Right? So apparently his plan to send these people into the desert to the shores of Indian Bay north of Bengal, had perished with him in exile as he hid from the Ganges Special Prosecutor, getting lost in the shuffle as the scandal broke out. To avoid getting lost in the shuffle again, the settlers in the new city have coerced the Senate to provide guarantees on a long term plan of action, where they shall one day have their own temple, harbor, granary and aqueduct.

Once all the courthouses were completed, and crime and the threat of revolt settled down, the Yans no longer had an audience for their endless nitpicking and harping, and were once again tossed out of the Senate leadership in favor of more liberal politicians.


Note to Hocus, there's no tech brokering to be done at the moment. I already sold a tech each to Germany and England, and they are far too broke to pay anywhere near market price for more, for the foreseeable future. Right now, only Persia and Zululand rival India. Germany has conquered Aztecs and may one day rise to prominence, but for the moment they are not much of a threat. Please don't broker tech to Zulu or Persia. We have rails now, and will have factories soon, and every turn delayed on THEM getting hold of these is a turn ahead we get in what is now surely the Cold War of production. For make no mistake, at least SOME war is coming, for the AI's have attacked one another too harshly and grown too large, and we are going to have to mix it up at least a bit to slow them down -- all the better to do so as our factories and rails churn out all kinds of military hardware while their forces remain scattered. Artillery is the key, for no city, no matter how well defended, can long stand up to Hellacious bombardment (witness Iraq, 4th largest army in the world, pummelled in a rout after being thoroughly softened up from the air first, in 1991.)

A stack of twenty artillery stationed outside a city, with infantry and cavalry/elephants ready to march on 1hp units, can take down any city or discourage any stack of Persian invaders, sending them packing for home. Rails can move artillery and accompanying defender units to anywhere we need, so it won't matter if the AI's have rifles or not. Hopefully we can move on Persia before they too get to infantry, though.

And with rumors of war on the horizon, the Universal Suffrage becomes a priority. The ability to extend a war without pumping luxuries to the max, or to weather a long war when the other parties aren't interested in negotiations, is important. Every turn that weariness is delayed is IMPORTANT, because weariness sticks around once it piles up, and immediately returns at full force if you return to war again. Thus, Bombay is on Palace awaiting Suffrage.

Jaipur, Indus, and Chittagong are all dedicated to pumping a out a worker each every other turn for... indefinitely. You don't have to do a thing, I even have the workers all queued up. Our three tiny tundra towns are all building harbors. Fishing Village is set to build its necessities. That's eight cities.

Every other city in our empire, every last one (including Delhi) besides those eight I listed, are building placeholders awaiting Industrialization, to build factories. Whether or not its wise to continue this course of action, is up to you, Hocus. Good luck.


- Sirian

A good reign, as usual, Sirian. On some points, I couldn't tell what was story-fashion "and the people revolted over the crazy actions of the last king" and what was legit criticism. (And hey, mix in some positive propaganda, eh?! :P) Let me give the rationale on a few points and ask a question:

1. What ON EARTH does having a courthouse have to do with protection from flipping???? That occurs (presumably, or so I thought) when a no culture town in a low culture country is surrounded by high culture elements in a decent culture country. IF so, temples, library and cathedral are precisely the right thing to do.

2. 500 Gold for a luxury?? Absolutely not! We didn't need the luxury. That was 500 gold for 20 turns of peace. In 20 turns we have near full rails and lots of factories and an improved lead. Let to myself I would have gone Mil Tradition, cranked/upgraded fifteen cav and emptied the contitent of Persians with a supremely defensible position at the end, but I sensed that a) the incoming leader would NOT have liked that course of action, and b) the team as a whole wanted to see what effect our 'tiny' cities could do to affect Persia culture. (I think now the answer is: they are 'affected' rather than 'effecitve' for culture, BUT wow, they've turned into decently productive, large, and cultural cities in their own right ;P)

I've been chompin at the bit to have Mil Tradition and duke it out with Xerxes, and subdued that for the sake of the perceived plan, so mocking a choice to preserve peace is... ouch!! I saw the Immortals move, I saw how hot Xerxes got, I'm convinced we would now be at war, the DEFENDERS not the attackers, right now, if I didn't make that deal (or the ROP). At some point later I'll replay and see if I was paranoid again :P

3. Was that a crit of barracks in the middle? Barracks are ESSENTIAL for border towns, especially our 3 puppies surrounded by Persians. If THEY start an attack, have barracks reheal between turns is worth at least an effective doubling of the defensive capability. And if YOU start an attack, having those barracks town for quick reheals when the Cavalry disengages at 1 hp, is also super. Those 'regular' musketmen on the eastern front will get eaten alive even by Immortals - the lack of barracks has gone on long enough.

4. Are your comments on artillery from experience or theory? My *very* limited experience suggests that they miss alot, and if the number of defenders is similar to number of artillery, or even a quarter the size, the damage done is useless, FULLY rehealed next round by the barracks. If you want to pit 20 canon vs 5 riflemen, I'ld rather pit 20 Cav against 5 musketmen.

I'ld like to learn if/how artillery is effective, so please do elucidate!

Other than that... good job on the fishing village, and full agreement with no brokering of techs that Persia does not have.

Charis

1430 A.D. (1): Lots of Worker movement.

1435 A.D. (2): Lots of Worker movement.

1440 A.D. (3): Germany cancels our trade agreement of Incense for Ivory.

1445 A.D. (4): Bangalore finishes War Elephant, builds Cannon.
Chittagong finishes Granary, trains Worker.
We disover Industrialization, research begins on Military Tradition.
Numerous cities change their production to a Factory.
Bombay begins building Universal Suffrage. Due to finish in 11 turns.

1450 A.D. (5): Indus finishes Granary, trains Worker.

1455 A.D. (6): Bangalore finishes Cannon, builds Factory.
Chittagong trains Worker, trains another.

1460 A.D. (7): Indus trains Worker, trains another.
Persia cancels their Wine deal with us, they want Steam Power to continue it. Haha, yeah, right. They are denied.

1465 A.D. (8): Xerxes demands Steam Power. Their army outnumbers ours, and we are ill prepared for a defensive War, I feel. However, we are going to discover Military Tradition next turn, giving us Cavalry, so after the initial wave we should be able to effectively fight back. We go to War.
We discover Military Tradition, research begins on Nationalism.
All our War Elephants are upgraded to Cavalry.
Science rate turned down since next turn we will go into the red.
Cannons are moved from Bangalore to Ganges, and from Bombay to Dacca.

1470 A.D. (9): Much fighting occurs. Indus loses a Musketman.
Punjab finishes Courthouse, builds Cannon.
Much bombardment from our Cannons commences.
Our Cavalry finishes off damaged units.
We capture Orleans, taking the Great Lighthouse in the process. Two Musketmen are moved from Bangalore to Orleans for defence.
We capture Chartres. Reinforcements are moved in to help defend it.

1475 A.D. (10): Indus loses several Musketmen to Immortals. Musketmen are moved from Chittagong to Indus.
Kolhapur finishes Factory, trains Cavalry.


Jaffa: Just keep that Cannon bombardment up and shipping in reinforcements where necessary, and you should be fine. The Persians have already lost 2 cities and a number of units - they should back off soon enough.

Charis: In my opinion, you have played just fine, and I appreciate your style. Not only that, but you are willing to learn and adapt, which is great too. Don't be too worried about the overbearing a**hole who must be the greatest Civ 3 player that ever existed and ever will - there is one in every game, you'll find. They insist on controlling the game and bullying others into playing the way they normally would, even though this is directly contrary to the true spirit of Succession games. Just play the way you want, don't be afraid to ask questions, and more importantly - have fun.

If you stop having fun, there isn't much point in continuing to play. And at the moment, I'm approaching that point. I guess I'll have to see what happens from here.

-H

H. -

Well things have perked up quite a bit!

> 1445 A.D. (4): Bangalore finishes War Elephant, builds Cannon.
> Chittagong finishes Granary, trains Worker.
> We disover Industrialization, research begins on Military Tradition.
> Numerous cities change their production to a Factory.

Cool. For a cost of 4 turns we now have the OPTION to wage an *offensive* campaign, or to be less concerned about ramifications of decisions that cause war to be declared on us. It may even help us set back Persia FAR more than 4 turns.

> 1460 A.D. (7): Indus trains Worker, trains another.
> Persia cancels their Wine deal with us, they want Steam Power > to continue it. Haha, yeah, right. They are denied.

As of course they should be. Alas this will leave them in an annoyed state. The way to un-annoy them, at this stage (just as an FYI) would be (I think) to sign an RPP with them. It might be free or might cost small gold, but it would buy another 10-20 rounds of peace, at which time our rail network would be complete, a few factories would be in place, and we would have two dozen cavalry waiting to charge.

> 1465 A.D. (8): Xerxes demands Steam Power. Their army
> outnumbers ours, and we are ill prepared for a defensive War,
> I feel. However, we are going to discover Military Tradition next
> turn, giving us Cavalry, so after the initial wave we should be
> able to effectively fight back.
> We go to War.

Or we can just go to war now! :eek:

The choice to not cave in was right (imho), it was letting them stay annoyed that led to war. We'll soon see if the outcome is good, or if this backfired. Getting to be a good mystery novel, can't wait to see how it turns out :P

> We discover Military Tradition, research begins on Nationalism.

The war may be over before we finish Nationalism, an otherwise optional tech. Hopefully we'll gain more than we lose from that.

> All our War Elephants are upgraded to Cavalry.
woot


> We capture Orleans, taking the Great Lighthouse in the
> process. Two Musketmen are moved from Bangalore to Orleans
> for defence. We capture Chartres. Reinforcements are moved
> in to help defend it.

Excellent. I expected those two would be quick to fall, and with the speed of the chivalry, I figured 1-2 turns.

Paris, iirc, has a lot of goodies in it, wonder-wise. It shouldn't last another two rounds, and Lyon shouldn't be tough either.

The BULK of their army is east of Tarsus. I would think we should strike ASAP on the remaining 'chokepoint' cities of Sidon and Tarsus after Paris fails. Then a mop up of the rest of the continent is fully assured.

> 1475 A.D. (10): Indus loses several Musketmen to Immortals.
Gah! Rookies!

> Jaffa: Just keep that Cannon bombardment up and shipping in > reinforcements where necessary, and you should be fine. The
> Persians have already lost 2 cities and a number of units - they > should back off soon enough.

Persia isn't fighting with anyone else, they'll bring the bulk of a huge army if allowed. "Call off" is not really an option. That continent is ours! :)

> Charis: In my opinion, you have played just fine, and I
> appreciate your style. Not only that, but you are willing to learn
> and adapt, which is great too. Don't be too worried about the
> ...

Eep. Uh, I'm not worried about anyone, and will continue to do what I think is best and not totally against grain of team, although not all folks may like all calls. I wasn't sensing any hostilities, and hope the only further ones are on the battlefield for Tarsus :P

Our writer friend has a quite a forceful style that should be seen as wrapped in an implicit "imho". (Well, that's my take on it, I would hate to think anyone with only about 3 games more Civ 3 experience than I could not possibly think they know all the answers!!)

As a gentle reminder to all, each player is free to call the shots as they best see fit. Part of the fun/challenge is in "cleaning up" some messes that we would never see in solo games. (If that's not considered fun, a succession game probably isn't a good idea for a skillful player)

> Just play the way you want, don't be afraid to ask questions,
> and more importantly - have fun.

Thanks, I plan on doing all of those. :king: The questions and debate and alternate views are more than half the fun for me. I'm an avid bridge and chess player, and one of the oddest but most fun things is the "post mortem", where you grill to pieces every single play of the game, and if 'mistakes' are backed up with the 'why' and data, the good player learns from it. Before this game ends there will be at least a dozen 'crossroad' decision points in the game that I'm looking forward to replaying, and I expect to learn a lot and have fun with that. At that point, whether I was right or wrong in the actual game is of no consequence -- it's done. I'll get to see at that point if strongly touted advice was superbly wise, or the ravings of a mad man :P

I hope we can reign things in before they get out of hand :nuke:, and that it remains *highly* fun for all. Is it Jaffa up next? He and Cy are gonna have a nail-biting time of it.

Charis

PS Did you forget to attach the save file?

Indeed I did. :) I've attached it to this post.

Hey Charis.

1. What ON EARTH does having a courthouse have to do with protection from flipping???? That occurs (presumably, or so I thought) when a no culture town in a low culture country is surrounded by high culture elements in a decent culture country.

Courthouses dramatically lower the chance of flipping. The presence of them in the Persian towns may be why they've held out all this time against our cultural pressure. I don't know what the actual formulas and weightings are, but the factors that go into a flip decision include border pressure, total culture of each civ, presence of foreign nationals of the related country, distance from each capital, military units stationed there, courthouse, and possibly a luck factor (RNG). I've never had a city flip on me without foreign nationals (IE, a city I founded). I was as surprised as you, because the cultural factor in Ganges is quite high. So high, in fact, that I presume it's higher than what the Persians have achieved in their cities right there. Could the leftover "culture" of the French be a factor? I don't know, but if so, that would tilt things quite a bit.

With so much border pressure, though, I would have built courthouses sooner, defensively. If you replay it, build courthouses, and the city doesn't offer to flip... I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that the courthouse made the difference, because of the unknowns in the formula (I do suspect a luck factor).


2. 500 Gold for a luxury?? Absolutely not! We didn't need the luxury. That was 500 gold for 20 turns of peace. In 20 turns we have near full rails and lots of factories and an improved lead.

Right. Isn't Xerxes interested in Ivory, though? If not, or it wasn't available, the RoP would surely have kept him polite much more cheaply -- or at worst, gold per turn would have been less risky, and not depleted the treasury on the spot.

Also, 20 turns of Improved Odds of peace. Nothing will deter the AI from coming at certain times. If not for them acquiring saltpeter somewhere else, I'm sure they would have attacked already.


Was that a crit of barracks in the middle?

No.


Are your comments on artillery from experience or theory? My *very* limited experience suggests that they miss alot, and if the number of defenders is similar to number of artillery, or even a quarter the size, the damage done is useless, FULLY rehealed next round by the barracks. If you want to pit 20 canon vs 5 riflemen, I'ld rather pit 20 Cav against 5 musketmen.

Well yeah, given an either/or of 20 artillery 20 cavalry, I'd take the cavalry, too, but I'd take 10 of each over 20 cavalry. Note I said artillery, not cannon. You expressed concern about the "window" closing on us of our chance to wage an offensive war, due to riflemen arriving. You'd be right, but it opens right back up with artillery, which a 4+ tech lead would have us pulling down at about the same time. Artillery can undo ANY defense, the AI is totally sad at defending. The further down the tech tree you move, the more advantage conveys onto a human player, due to flaws (or at least weaknesses) in the AI. They do not and will not stack more than a couple units per city -- you could overrun them with more cavalry but it would mean losses once riflemen are on the scene, ESPECIALLY in big cities. Artillery don't expire unless you fail to protect them, so they can move city to city to city, and they can take out barracks and reduce population (and thus defense bonuses) in stubborn cities. You have to have enough to hit one location pretty hard, though, but they can chew through mech infantry, and lighter defenders get roughed up sooner.

What is needed is enough artillery to damage the few defenders (so they only have one or two hp's left, or at least the "big" defenders are thus wounded). Then your gropos charge in with vastly reduced chance of losses and mop up. Engineers run along and build rails underneath the troops and the whole stack marches on to the next city on the next turn or two. It's not blitzkrieg, but it IS inexorable.

That doesn't mean you have all your blitzing units wait around for artillery. I was answering your fear about window of opportunity. Now if the AI were improved to weight self-defense more, with more robust numbers of defenders, and at least ONE more option for strategy besides "round up all our surplus units and charge" then that might change my analysis. I suppose I've developed a certain disdain for the AI, which is far more one-dimensional on closer inspection than meets the eye initially. It's why you see AI's mop one another off the planet with such regularity: once a civ has expended all its surplus force, often in some long-ranging offensive action, it is ripe for the plucking, and someone else with their offensive units intact goes in and cleans up. The AI also won't tackle an enemy stack head on, so someone with a really large stack of strong units can go from city to city to city, with the defender ignoring the biggest threat in favor of nibbling off the edges. Even so, often the civ that is most successful OFFENSIVELY is the first one to die out in a game with a lot of civs, as all their gains are picked apart by others who sat on the sidelines and preserved their stacks of mobile units.

The AI is GOOD, but it is 100% predictable, because it does only one thing. If there were three or four "stances" it might choose to take, including some with more priority on robust defense, that would spice the game up enormously.


I'ld like to learn if/how artillery is effective, so please do elucidate!

You've read the report from my very first civ game, right? I made so many mistakes there, that ironically, I got the chance to learn a lot of things I wouldn't have been able to see if I had known what I was doing. One of those is the power of artillery, as with no oil and a LONG running modern age, I had literally forty or fifty artillery spread out in about three stacks, and won decisive military victories against more advanced opponents. I got a great feel for how much artillery was needed to get any particular job done, because I had SO much of it, there was never any question of what I might have been able to do if only I had more. I got to see more, perhaps, than I realized at the time.

The patch has rendered cities more resistant to artillery, but that only affects the number of units you need on hand by a little bit, in my recent experience. The point of the artillery is primarily to wound the defenders just enough to reduce your losses from "severe" to "several" or from "several" to "few or none". It is not the best case for a single city, but it works marvelously at conserving forces for a protracted campaign.

Another thing I got to see was having tons of obsolete units lying around, because I did so little upgrading (and didn't realize inf could be upgraded to mech). So I did a LOT of assaults against inf and mech inf, with CAVALRY and infantry and artillery, and won the day with a combo of evolving tactics and brute production force. In fact, if not for the space race aspect, I was in military control of the game and on the path to victory once I got a source of oil secured, all without communism or poprushing. The more I look back at that game, the more I realize what a bounteous blessing it was, full of all kinds of opportunities and lessons that were well learned. I lost! But in playing it out iron style and coping with each "aha, so that was a mistake" I ran into rather than backing up, really accelerated my sense of what to do. And this before I understood the AI. It's only been in games lately that I've really picked the AI apart and come to favor the industrial age as the time period when the player has the most advantage militarily -- unless you can get cavalry going against spears and pikes, or dedicate to exploiting the faulty happiness weightings attached to endlessly whipping cities, but neither of those are much heard of in my Emperor games.


- Sirian

If you stop having fun, there isn't much point in continuing to play. And at the moment, I'm approaching that point. I guess I'll have to see what happens from here.

When people disagree, there's a natural tendency for them to feel less comfortable in each other's presence. I'm sorry that my comments are annoying you. I'm not trying to crowd you out.


Don't be too worried about the overbearing a**hole who must be the greatest Civ 3 player that ever existed and ever will - there is one in every game, you'll find.

Well, at least that's blunt and clear.

Every player in this game except for you, Hocus, has played Diablo 2 team variants with me on an extended basis. They all know me fairly well as a gamer and have a different relationship with me than you seem to suspect. I have great faith in those relationships, which is why I'm not afraid to speak my mind here or write a full blown in-character piece and let them decide what to do with my various opinions. I know they won't take anything personally -- or, if they do, they'll let me know and we'll work it out. Clearly, you and I don't have that kind of bond going, and apparently I'm really ticking you off now. Well, what can I say, when you've already boiled over? That hardly endears me to you, either, but I don't plan on going anywhere nor changing my degree of involvement with the group, nor engaging in some kind of power struggle. I'm here to play and write about it.


Just play the way you want, don't be afraid to ask questions, and more importantly - have fun.

That's sound advice. I don't think Charis is having a problem here, though. You're the one who's upset. :p

My vision of succession games is strong on interaction and teamwork. There's a sliding scale between individual decision and action-by-committee, with all sorts of range in there, and we're far from approaching the extreme on the committee end. You don't want to be told what to do, and I respect that. I don't either. But I've looked around the board at other games running, and some of them have disintegrated for a variety of reasons, among them a lack of cooperation strategically. LK's games run with a regular commentary and advice/directives from him after each player's turn. There are lots of ways to organize and play this sort of game. For someone calling me names, you seem pretty sure of the rightness of your own vision for the "proper" mix of teamwork vs autonomy. The true spirit of succession games? You have that nailed down, do you?

I can point to each of my turns and outline a number of things I did differently than I would have in my own single player games, directly due to compromise to carry out strategic imperatives set in motion by others on the last round of play. I've done so for every player in the game, from Charis's wheat grab and early road to Jaffa's horse grab to Cy's culture gambit. I've made the least compromise in your direction because your turn is the most removed from mine and often others before me have already changed the situation by the time it gets back to me, but I've done things in response to your plans, too. My support has gone beyond the necessary fact of life of accepting what others did and moving from there, well into the range of true cooperation, changing my gameplay in any number of ways to fuse with the team, giving as much as I ask for. I've invested a good bit of time and energy into the atmosphere here, writing up in-character reports (as started by Charis) with the intent of helping to breathe more life into what might otherwise be just six unconnected players taking turns at a single player game. Too much for your taste? You'd rather just take your turn, be left alone, write your report and sit quietly until your next turn? And have everyone else do the same? Sure, it could be done that way, but Charis organized this thing, he set the tone, and all I'm doing is playing along the best I can, with no sense that I ought to be apologizing for that just because you're annoyed over some of my critique and requests.

So what do you want? Where does it go from here?


- Sirian

Ouch, ouch and ouch again. The wise men of India went looking for the Monkey Cult to lead us through this time of crisis, but all they found was an abandoned temple and a crude hand-written note, "Please leave us alone!"

Reviewed trade agreements. Is anybody else doing this? Americans paid 15 gold to renew RoP. English were getting saltpeter for 5 gold/turn, they're now giving us spices + 11 gold/turn (+ 50 gold lump sum). Trade furs + ivory to Germans for incense + 2 gold/turn.

Upgraded our two horsemen to cavalry.

Persian frigates destroy temple of New Delhi. Our fleet consists of 1 galleon? Eeep.

Massed Persian assault overwhelms our defenses at Indus. They land an immortal next to Fishing Village.

1480 Switched Jaipur and Punjab to building ironclads. Swordsman from Delhi takes out the one Persian immortal. Retake Indus and move in cannons from Chartres. Launch assault on Paris using cannons and cavalry from Dacca. Persians have riflemen already :P

Persians destroy the road from the saltpeter outside of Chittagong. Ack!

1485 Persian frigates destroy barracks at Chittagong.

1490 Captured Paris and the Art of War :) In the first version of this history, we also created a Great Leader, but then the game crashed, and on the replay I didn't get one. Bah :P

Persian frigates destroy granary at Chittagong and courthouse at New Delhi.

Riots in Madras, Lahore, Chartres, Karachi, Hyderabad and Indus.

1495 Persian frigates destroy temple of Chittagong. Universal Suffrage completed in Bombay. Finish nationalism, start on medicine.

1500 We take Lyons, and raze it. Our cultural boundary expands to the coast. Bump the luxury tax to 20% to deal with widespread unrest. Persians still won't talk about peace. Buy saltpeter from the Americans in exchange for magnetism + 14 gold/turn (which I considered better than breaking the deal with the English).

Persians destroy Chittagong and our horse supply.

1505 Persians land troops near Tours.

1510 Our first ironclad enters combat, sinking a Persian frigate.

Persians destroy Tours.

1515 Persians beat us to Shakespeare's Theater. By two turns. Double ack. We lose a lot of shields from Delhi.

1520 Fighting continues around the ruins of Chittagong. I have a settler rush-built in Chartres.

1525 Re-establish Chittagong and our supply of horses.

Well. There you have it. Our border with Persia is a little more defensible than it was, but our cavalry advantage is probably gone, and our troops are stretched very thin. I've been selectively upgrading our frontline musketmen to riflemen.

Chittagong is by no means secure.

Bombay is building a palace for the next wonder (Newton?).

There's a Persian rifleman wandering around in our territory near Bombay. Make sure we don't leave any unguarded workers next to him until we can deal with him properly.

Hi,

I had hoped that it would not have to come to this, but apparently it has. I have no desire to get into another prolonged exchange with you Sirian, we have been down that path before. I can tell that not only would it have wrecked the game for me, but for everyone else as well, as it would have been impossible to continue such a team-based game in the hostile environment currently brewing.

As a result, I hereby resign from this game.

To Charis: thanks for letting me be a part of it. It was fun while it lasted. And apart from one individual, I enjoyed playing with you all.

However, before I do go, I do wish to clarify some things Sirian said, as I feel that they should not go unanswered.

"My vision of succession games is strong on interaction and teamwork. There's a sliding scale between individual decision and action-by-committee, with all sorts of range in there, and we're far from approaching the extreme on the committee end. You don't want to be told what to do, and I respect that. I don't either. But I've looked around the board at other games running, and some of them have disintegrated for a variety of reasons, among them a lack of cooperation strategically. LK's games run with a regular commentary and advice/directives from him after each player's turn. There are lots of ways to organize and play this sort of game. For someone calling me names, you seem pretty sure of the rightness of your own vision for the "proper" mix of teamwork vs autonomy. The true spirit of succession games? You have that nailed down, do you?"

I have had a fair bit of experience with Succession games, having done so with Civilization 2, Alpha Centauri and now Civilization 3. In my experience, I have found that it is best to let people play how they want to - as long as it does not endanger the goal of the rest of the group, in this case to have fun, (so I assumed, or was I wrong?) and it does not prove to be directly counter-productive to the game, in a deliberate and extreme fashion. No one person should ever be in control of gameplay, officially or otherwise, and feedback should not be too overbearing, since after all, the whole point of the game is to mix people with different styles. There is a fine line between providing feedback and outright telling people how to play their turn, and I believe this line was crossed during the course of our game. And, if someone does not do what you expected them to do, or would have hoped they would do, you shouldn't chastise them for it - perhaps they had a different strategy in mind. If you do not like it, you are free to attempt to remedy it in your own turn.

Now, this is merely my opinion of what Succession games are all about. I never went any further than to offer my opinion. In hindsight, this may have been hard to pick up, since I did not end this:

"...even though this is directly contrary to the true spirit of Succession games."

with in my opinion. No matter, you know now.

"I can point to each of my turns and outline a number of things I did differently than I would have in my own single player games, directly due to compromise to carry out strategic imperatives set in motion by others on the last round of play. I've done so for every player in the game, from Charis's wheat grab and early road to Jaffa's horse grab to Cy's culture gambit. I've made the least compromise in your direction because your turn is the most removed from mine and often others before me have already changed the situation by the time it gets back to me, but I've done things in response to your plans, too. My support has gone beyond the necessary fact of life of accepting what others did and moving from there, well into the range of true cooperation, changing my gameplay in any number of ways to fuse with the team, giving as much as I ask for. "

In my opinion [;)], you went further than this. I had this constant feeling that I was merely a tool that was meant to do nothing more than follow the implicit directions of Sirian, and not think for myself.

You may have meant well, but every time I read your comments, after your turns and everyone else's, it seemed to me as if you were telling the next player(s) what to do, instead of merely recommending, as you should have. Things like setting building queues that lasted for many turns during your turn only strengthened this feeling. Saying things like, "I have set (x) up like (y), you can change it if you want but it would be a bad idea if you did." It went further than trying to be courteous towards the next player, as I know you will try to claim. I thought the idea was that we would build what we felt was best? You may say you did not remove the choice from us, but the implication to not change it was there. You were, whether you realised it or not, causing the game to be more like a Sirian single player game than a Succession game. I do not know if any of the others feel the same way, but that is certainly how I felt.

"I've invested a good bit of time and energy into the atmosphere here, writing up in-character reports (as started by Charis) with the intent of helping to breathe more life into what might otherwise be just six unconnected players taking turns at a single player game."

Not all of us have the ability, time or desire to write in-character reports. I prefer to use the standard report format, since:

a) It is easier for other people to read, at the very least much easier than overly verbose and detailed in-character reports.

b) It is easier to see what happened each turn, rather than trying to decipher such reports.

c) If we ever need to go back and see what we did, it is far easier to read what happened on a turn than to dig through a long in-character report.

"Too much for your taste? You'd rather just take your turn, be left alone, write your report and sit quietly until your next turn?"

No. You know this is not the case, but thanks for misrepresenting me. It's not as if I wrote my report and that was it - I made recommendations on what the next player might want to do, in a far less forceful way than you did, and gave my take of the current game situation. You have also failed to notice that I gave Cy some advice on how to control Workers. If it was my intention to interact with everyone as little as I could, I would not have done that, would I? It is true that I have not provided nearly as much feedback as you, but that was for a purpose - I did not want other people to feel pressured into taking their turn any other way than they wanted to (within reason, of course, as was used the whole game). I did not want the game to feel like a standard Hocus game, I wanted it to feel like a Charis, Sirian, Hocus, Jaffa, Cyrene and Skandranon game, and so to ensure that this occurred, I did my best to leave as much control to everyone else as I possibly could.

<snip>

Good luck to you all for the rest of the game,

-Hocus

I had hoped that it would not have to come to this, but apparently it has. I have no desire to get into another prolonged exchange with you Sirian, we have been down that path before. I can tell that not only would it have wrecked the game for me, but for everyone else as well, as it would have been impossible to continue such a team-based game in the hostile environment currently brewing.

You can try to lay that at my doorstep if you like, Hocus, but whatever provocations you may believe you've suffered, and whatever behavior of mine you disagreed with, you passed on the chance to confront the issues politely. A little editing out of the misplaced personal comments, and leading with the explanation of what was bothering you that you just posted, sans the personal judgements, might have led to a better understanding. You didn't give it the chance. I apologized for my provocations, and that too has been rejected.

I'll take the criticism for being provocative, but tensions are a two way issue. Our expectations and ways of doings things differed -- but if you can say your bit without feeling a need to add "in my opinion" to every remark you make, why should I be denied that benefit of doubt you presume you are entitled to? Much of your criticism of me boils down to a lack of "in my opinion" posted alongside my comments. You felt like you were being told what to do? Well, you were, but then you also weren't. It was all just my opinion, which I thought was welcomed by all. Apparently not all, though. I only harped on that point about your view of the spirit of succession games to show up the double standard, not needle you into tagging "in my opinion" onto everything. I'm with Charis, that part is presumed, at least between myself and all the others here. Perhaps I should have taken more care not to offend you, but I didn't think that would be necessary.

Calling my reports "overly verbose" is just as harsh as any of my criticisms, in-character or otherwise. What is that if not an effort to persuade me to change over to the way you'd prefer it? You have a lengthy history of civ succession games, much longer than mine -- but this is also the RBD game, with the tone set by Charis and adopted in-character by everyone but you, and quite consistent with all my experiences with this group of players. I can appreciate your experienced view, with the conventional wisdom and established ettiquette of such games. If you had resigned without the cheap shots first, then I might have taken your claims at face value, but isn't your resignation here at least as much an attempt to influence the game as anything I wrote?

I rather resented your presumption that we'd automatically go for space race or diplo win, and considered it the same sort of impact in trying to persuade the course of the game as you accuse me of. What's different about the two? You accomplished your persuasion de facto in the game by taking other options off the table. What could I do? Advocate my position. You rejected that with a "I'll do what I want on my turn" reply, and then what could I do from there? Two choices: try to reach some compromise, or at least some kind of team harmony on the game play, or attempt to unilaterally force the game into a mode of my preference. I wouldn't do the latter, so I grumbled a bit and decided that if that was the way it would be, I would abandon any attempt to pursue a strategy that you only planned to undo (and could undo) the moment your turn hit.

Perhaps it would have been useful to discuss more in advance about expectations. Neither of us, apparently, realized how divergent the preferences and expectations of others might be.

I find your criticism of me to be, at every turn, reflective back on some of the things you yourself have been doing. If I'm a bad guy for advocating my opinions and preferences, I'm not alone. Or, perhaps, nobody is really an ******* here, and it's all just a misunderstanding, partially influenced by previous misunderstandings with nothing at all to do with Civ3. If you had a problem with something I was doing, why wait until after you've blown up and removed any hope for solving the problem to define the problem? That's a set-up.

You don't have to resign on my account. The only hostility here is from you. I won't be called an ******* and not stand up for myself, though, so if that's a judgement you want to stick by, with a "there ain't enough room in this town for the both of us" attitude, I'll say my farewell to you. If my promising not to say another word about any of your actions or decisions would be sufficient to persuade you to stay, consider it done. But if that's not good enough for you, and you want to control what I say and how I interact with the others, write my reports, etc, well then go ahead and quit.


- Sirian

Got it.

War before infantry, tanks, and bombers? Eeeep!

This is not my forte, but I'll do the best I can.

I'm going to have to work this around friendly fire, but I should get it back in tonight, but it might be reeeaaaalllllly late...

--Cy

My my my, this game gets interesting yet! Industrial age warfare isn't my strong point either, I usually do all sorts of swordsman carnage, or modern warfare with a tech lead. This will be most fascinating (or lethal, or both).

Cy, take your time. I don't have time until tomorrow night ~8 anyway.

-Skan

If the current "breach" :confused: remains, I think that I would enjoy playing with you, if you'll have me. Of course, I've mainly played on Chieftain, but I'm getting a lot better. The only problem would be that occaisionally I wouldn't be able to take my turn, but I could "pass", right? Anyway, tell me what you think,

Greetings followers of the Great Democratic Empire of India.

Our great nation had been beset by war with our dastardly neighbor for nearly 50 years when Jaffa the Steady declined to seek re-election. In his place, our wise people elected a great statesman to lead her out of darkness. His mind was subtle, his wisdom deep, his leadership and courage unquestioned. He was also hit by a bus while crossing a street 3 days after the election, and his idiot Vice President (chosen to appeal to the minor but crucial beer-drinking-moron party) took office. In this way Cy_Ghandi, beer in hand, assumed the Presidency and the Regency of Great India.

I was expecting, quite frankly, a mess. What I found was a country in great shape, considering. Units were distributed well, the road network was intact, a military rail net was begun, production was logical, and workers were working hard, yet in protected places. Thanks, Jaffa. I then proceeded to screw around with things, of course 8-). Actually, the only change I made was to shift off of most (but not all) of the navy production. Persia was pounding our coasts on three sides with masses of ships, but they were old and vulnerable to ironclads, so producing a round of them to drive off the Persian ships and protect against invasions was a great idea. So of course I nixed it in favor of cavalry 8-).

1530. Xerxes goes on the attack. We have a sole immortal in the tundra attacking infrastructure (no big deal as we don’t need the tundra infrastructure anyways, but annoying as heck), a rifleman loose in the interior, and then the bad news. Xerxes (1) starts another push out of Tarsus, putting riflemen in front and hitting our cities with Cav and then retreating the Cav behind the riflemen screen, and (2) he opens a second front by Marseilles with an amphibious assault and attack on New Delhi. Erk! I take a loooong, long look at the situation, and decide I’m screwed. Actually, I used sterner language than that, but the scribes deleted it 8-).

My assessment: Nation in good shape, but our military is as thin as paper. Our few extra units are around Tarsus on the front lines. A second front is very, very, bad. Worse, a Persian battlegroup is operating off our western coast—a third front would collapse us like a second tired cliché in the same paragraph (erm, house of cards). If I turtle and make them come to me, they will ignore my cities and spend their time cutting all my roads and destroying years of work, then start on the cities (that is opinion, but my observation is when the ai has tactical but not brute force advantage that is what it does—actually, I have learned to do this myself, it can really cripple a nation in a hurry). I decide my best chance is to take the fight to Persia, and quickly. But my round of Cav I swapped to out of navy won’t be ready for a turn or two, and even with it I won’t have enough offense for more than 1.5 fronts. I need 2 turns to breathe, and I need to eliminate the threat of further sea-side invasions. I need to distract the AI 8-).

A look at the map shows America has the common border with Persia, they are also competing with colonies on an island, and I recall they have been at war at least twice already this game. Perfect. Hat in hand, and prepared to bend over, I go visit Mr. Lincoln. No dice. No way to get an alliance, even giving all our techs. Hmm. OTOH, he will give a MPP for our world map, and the Persians are attacking every turn. Hmmm. I hate MPP. I don’t think I’ve ever had one I didn’t end up regretting. Not to mention that the American AI is a jerk, and we are sure to be embroiled in war for the full 20 turns it is in effect and for however long after that we need to get ourselves out of all the crap it got us into. OTOH, I really feel the need for a distraction. I do the deal (and feel dirty). I just know I’m gonna regret this…

1535. Xerxes attacks again, America declares war, and Xerxes pulls the navy off our west coast and some ships off of the other two fronts. Life is good.

1540. The Zulus declare war. Eeep. As I had no contact with them, I assume Xerxes is behind it all. Oh well. Persia’s offense is particularly weak this turn. Now it is India-America vs Persia-Zulu in a Texas-cage-hype-death-match 8-). Oh, and I also got those two turns I needed 8-). The counterstrike was on. My troops swing into motion in the elaborate, detailed, technical offensive code-named “erm, just attack somebody, and try not to die, ok?”.

1545. I took out the lone immortal, the rifleman, Rheims, (kept) and Siddon (kept)! I could only get the cav in position to attack on the same turn there, and was only attacking to soften things up and count his guns. Through sheer luck, I caught Xerxes with his pants down (or robe up, or whatever) and there was a single conscript rifleman in an important border city. That was it. One unit, one conquest. Even more fun, the unit was an elite Cav, and produced a GL on the victory. Woot! The leader is safely in the capitol now, contemplating what project he wants to head up before his unfortunate demise 8-0.

1550. Drunk either with power or cheap American beer (I had to trade them fine Indian pizzas for that horse-piss, too), I use the burgeoning military rail net to transfer excess troops that would have been used in the sack of Siddon to take Marseilles. I razed that one, as I was out of units for garrison and it was only 3 hexes form our nearest city anyway.

1555-1565. Consolidated, expanded military rail, prepared for next round of aggression. Persia’s counter-attacks were weak. I, erm, also did something pretty much guaranteed to cheese off Persia until the end of time. I knew I was locked into war with them until the end of the American MPP (unless Lincoln bailed first), and that we were going to have to eventually cripple Persia or just dominate it, so, erm, I signed a peace treaty with them which took all their gold, knowing on the next turn they would hit the Americans putting us at was again due to the MPP. I’m so bad…

1570. Second round of aggression. I went after Tarsus. Got it, too. This brought on the second biggest decision of my turn (after whether to climb into bed with the Americans), what to do, what to do 8-0. Raze or try to hold? I must have stared at the screen for 10 minutes. I eventually decided to try to hold it. If it lips I’m gonna feel pretty crappy…

1575. Held Tarsus one turn, anyways 8-).

You are up, Skan.

As always, it is your game to do as you see fit, but here are my thoughts, to be taken or not as works for you.

The MPP. Every one the Americans piss off for the next 11 turns or so is coming after us. Sorry.

Tarsus and Siddon. I was working the “starve them down low then add your workers to the city to maintain control by eliminating foreign nationals while building a temple and courthouse” plan. Your call. As the resistance is quelled in Tarsus, you might want to move at least the cav out of there, there are some elites. Tarsus should end resistance in one turn. I think Siddon is ok.

The English planted a city at the very edge of the far tip of the northern tundra. If they can make that work with one hill hex and one tundra hex, then more power to them.

Military disposition. I’m shifted WAY too far east. The Persians have a large navy and the Zulu’s will eventually do something. On the bright side, after about 2 turns you should be able to assemble a “flying squad” of about 12 riflemen and 6 cav to handle problems without draining the defense at Tarsus (unless it flips and takes an army with it, heh). You have 42 Riflemen and 21 Cav on duty with another 12 Riflemen due to arrive within 3 turns. About 3 cav and 4 Riflemen are also escorting workers building military rail near the border. With the military rail net coming in, you should be in the clear in a turn or two. The rail to Tarsus will complete in one turn (I sent workers along with the army—I blame the cheap american beer, myself).

Wonders. I’m clueless. Someone with a clue might want to jump in with an opinion, as we have 1 GL and a lot of shields saved in one city.

With all this said, Cy_Ghandi cheerfully decline to run for further office, at least until the beers run out.

--CY

ps—Skan—I have let city and trade agreement maintenance slip. I have every confidence you will sort thing out 8-)

Got it, but give me a bit of time.

-Skan

Cy!! Great job :) :goodjob:

Just opened up the save file, and I somehow missed in your description that...

WE OWN THE WHOLE CONTINENT! And the 'door' is closed, nailed, tighter than a drum! The next turns should be straightforward, as productions complete, switch all back to infrastructure, factories, coal plants, and as soon as that MPP expires, see about peace with Persia and Zulus before war weariness nails us.

Way to go team ;P
Charis

PS The only major backlash would be if Persia now goes and wipes out all of America, leaving them with a continent as large as ours.

Nay, hats off to Hocus and Jaffa. 50 years of war with Persia. I was expecting to inherit a disaster or at least a crisis. What I got was more cities than I left the game with in peace, and a nice, balanced, neutral empire to work with. Outstanding. Just outstanding.

Actually, a bold SOB could, in about 2 turns, strike right out after the Persian capitol. The plus is I THINK Xerxes is out of gas. The minuses are (1) I’ve been wrong before, and (2) a landing by the Zulus on the west coast while all our free troups were occupied in the heart of Persia would be interesting times.

Good thing that is Skan’s problem 8-).

Ah well, sanitation is coming. After that we can go to infantry, and after that no one will be able to touch us.

--Cy

The next election featured a horrendous upset as the Hippopotamus Party came to power once again! Encountering a terribly misprinted ballot on which the Hippopotamus Party was the only party listed, voters docilely voted the Hippos into power, their leader, Skandranon II, becoming President. Opposition calls for an inquiry into the misprint were denied by the new President, claiming that India's tax rupees were best spent elsewhere.

1580 - Much movement of workers. Consolidation and starvation of Tarsus. I want to keep Tarsus at a safe size before I move onward, because if it flips, whatever force we send into Persia gets stranded until we can take Tarsus back (or we have to send that force back to take Tarsus), neither of which are particularly pleasant options.

1585 - Bismarck comes calling and tells us that he won't go for that Incense for Dyes and Furs deal again. To go for it again, he wants 91 gold of our 92. Grudgingly, it is granted, since we really need that Incense to keep our rioting citizenry happy. Then Elizabeth also comes along and decides to break off the Spices deal. She wants Steam Power for them (greeted by raucous laughter) and gets insulted at offers of up to 20 gold/turn. We confidently refuse her Spices and instead get 20g/turn for Saltpeter and 15g/turn for Furs. This should help us build up our reserves again quickly. An Ironclad is laid down on the west coast.

1590 - The people, bereft of their Spices, turn their attention to tearing out their hair and burning down their homes instead. Civil disorder in every city over size six. Encountering once again the age-old dilemma of: Smart, Solvent, Sedate - choose two, the President selects Solvent and Sedate. President Skandranon orders another ten percent of tax revenue directed to replace the exotic spices with exotic dancers...er...cooks. This comes out of the coffers of the scientists, but there is no other choice. Much city micromanagement to make sure cities are producing and happy. I somehow miss Hyderabad, which stays in disorder until the next turn. Tarsus starves down again...excellent. MMOW as usual. I have to note that with the rail net in place, all I'm doing is railing down every used tile in sight, no long-range planning as of yet. A Zulu caravel that is approaching us is sunk by someone. Shaka and Xerxes send back heads of Indian envoys.

1595 - MMOW and general lack of movement while waiting for Tarsus to starve. It makes a temple. Half of the cities, finishing riflemen, are switched to infrastructural builds (coal plants mainly, colosseums in certain cities to make up for lack of luxury). Some of the remainder make cavalry. Forces gather outside of Tarsus.

1600 - American and Persian ships fight a battle along the south edges of our vision. Some Persians die. A Persian frigate appears in the northern waters. Three Ironclads are now on guard against possible Zulu incursion, but see nothing. One more turn on Tarsus. More worker stuff. A large Indian force gathers outside of Tarsus.

1605 - MMOW. The Persian frigate bombards our northern land improvements. Shaka and Xerxes catapult heads of Indian envoys in our general direction.

1610 - Tarsus is starved down to a sedate five or so citizens. The Indian Expeditionary Force takes a step out onto the mountain just outside our borders from Tarsus. The Persian frigate goes back the other way. Due to misrouted commands, one rifleman steps out on to open plains.

1615 - The Persian frigate comes back. The Indian Expeditionary Force takes another step onward onto a hill. A single Persian cavalry unit attacks the lone Rifleman, who beats him back 3-1. The Persian cav runs away to Pasargadae, which I have decided is my target. A secondary Indian force consisting of four cannons and five rifles moves to link up with the main force. MMOW. Some coal plants and colosseums complete, infrastructure builds continue - Persia seems to be running on vapors, and I'm sorry I didn't attack earlier. England calls to cancel the RoP, unhappy with paying 5 gold/turn, but is easily persuaded to take it at 4 gold/turn. Skandranon, as a test, sends two large chickens as envoys to Shaka and Xerxes. Heads are returned promptly.

1620 - The Persian frigate bombards our northern terrain improvements. The IEF steps on to the open plains near Pasargadae. Four or five cavalry move into Pasargadae. One tries an attack and is beaten away 3-0. The Americans cancel the saltpeter deal, but I already reconnected our local source and re-improved it, so I wave it a hearty good-bye and take back my 14 gold per turn. Combined with the English payments, we have a rather hefty income and over 500 in the bank now - Solvent and Sedate appears to have worked. We discover Sanitation and start Electricity.

1625 - The Persian frigate leaves again. The attack begins on Pasargadae! Cannons and catapults fire ineffectually. Despite the uselessness of the opening volley, hordes of cavalry assault the city walls. After much death and destruction, we trade six cavalry and one rifleman for about six cavalry, four riflemen and four recruits. Pasargadae falls, and we seize Smith's Trading Company (wild cheers all around). At the same time, Tarsus' cultural borders increase, giving us a territorial road link to Pasargadae. Furthermore, we seize a lot of Pasargadae's wines, which may allow us to wheel, deal, and set luxuries lower, but before President Skandranon can see to that, a flying Indian envoy head somehow makes it in through his office window and deals him a lethal wound. Chickens were fine, reflect the historians, but elephants were going quite a bit too far.

Comments and stuff:

Cy, that MPP with the Americans worked out fine. Their navy has apparently been duking it out with the Persians and Zulus, and our Ironclad killed the one Zulu ship to make it anywhere near our shores. They're not pissing anyone else off, so it's all in our favour for now.

Militarily, I see nothing wrong with going for Persepolis and those oh-so-delicious Pyramids. I think Persia's last punch (those six Cav) died in Pasargadae. Throw every worker into the gap and rail forth from Tarsus right to Pasargadae and you can flood troops quite literally onto Xerxes' front porch. My only worry is if Pasargadae flips. If we can stop Pasargadae from flipping, we can blast Xerxes off this continent in relatively short order, especially if we can turn those newly captured Wines into money and more luxuries to hold the peaceniks at bay. Actually, if we really are putting the pressure on Xerxes, we should be able to ask for and get some of his outlying colonies, which can then be shopped around (the AI loves cities). The Americans are tying up the Zulus in lovely fashion, and we have two Ironclads positioned to pick up any ships that make it through anyway - and we can build a few more if we need to.

In terms of science, I would highly recommend NOT going to Replaceable at the moment. Get to Scientific Method quickly, or Bombay will build the Palace before we get the ability to build ANY wonder, and those shields will be effectively wasted. Theory of Evolution is better than nothing, and we can GL the Hoover Dam for a real production spike if we keep going along that way for a while. Building ToE also goes a long way toward justifying my rather weedy decision to get Nav and Econ - since ToE can't pick those (it selects cheapest techs) it will give us an instant two-tech kick up the Industrial age. Even Communism and Espionage wouldn't be bad.


A question for everyone: is this tactic OK or considered somewhat immoral? When we took Pasargadae we captured two workers. You'll note in the save file that I moved them outside of Pasargadae and into Persian territory. The reason I did this was not to scout, but because the AI will attack unguarded workers or settlers before ANYTHING. Therefore, if they really do have a big reserve force ready to kick our rifles back to Tarsus, that big reserve force will be down two attacks as one Cavalry will be assigned to recapture each of the warriors as top priority - which could be the difference. Or, if they have no big reserve, this will tell us, depending on the number of cavalry that DO go after the workers. In essence, this will tell us whether Persia has 0 Cav, 1 Cav, or 2+ Cav. The thing is, it's a bit of an AI exploit. Well, more than a bit, it's a pretty big AI exploit. So - acceptable tactic (part of that human brain advantage to negate their cost bonus)? Or "borderline cheating don't-do-it-again"?

-Skan

A question for everyone: is this tactic OK or considered somewhat immoral? When we took Pasargadae we captured two workers. You'll note in the save file that I moved them outside of Pasargadae and into Persian territory. The reason I did this was not to scout, but because the AI will attack unguarded workers or settlers before ANYTHING.

This flaw in the game goes way beyond "exploit". An exploit is easily avoidable. To avoid THIS mess, with the AI madly ruining itself to chase down meaningless workers, is quite difficult to avoid even when you are going far out of your way to do so.

Just tonight, as I was playing on a game, I had forces arrayed around an enemy capital. The AI starts charging a knight around and I wonder what the heck it's doing. ZOC fire reduced the thing to one hp and finally it weaves its way through all kinds of my forces, along a twisty zigzag-back-out-forward-and-around my flank... to capture a worker in MY territory that just build a road on the border. I mean, this flaw in the AI is just INSANE.

I personally don't intentionally exploit this. The AI on defense is... well, sad. Exploit? Maybe. Yet it happens anyway, as the AI will choose to capture a worker above all else, and it will do so even if you leave it a one-in-a-million pathfinding option to squeeze its way to it. So what's really the difference between exploiting this on purpose and watching it happen over and over and over by accident, because you didn't bother to hide all your workers deep in your own territory while at war? They need to reprogram this, and until they do, I pretty much consider the whole thing a bug that intrudes on the quality of the game -- and don't much care if someone makes use of it. In fact, I could see it being a deliberate valid tactic, baiting the enemy. What the AI really needs is to be unpredictable: to have multiple tactical options/priorities, and to vary them according to some random seed preset on the previous turn. That way, it wouldn't auto-capture workers, nor would it auto-ignore them. You might stick them out there and have them ignored, which would mean you couldn't rely on the bait move -- yet they MIGHT grab workers, so you couldn't also rely on not losing workers you leave in a vulnerable spot.

The real failing of the AI isn't the workers: it's that city defense is NOT the top priority, when by all rights it ought to and must be. How to write a better AI, I do not know -- all I know is that this one is, in some regards, too one-dimensional, despite its advanced nature. As much as I hate luck factors, I really do see a need for one here. The AI needs to have a couple of GOOD options, and to select from them on an unpredictable basis. For sure, the priority on capturing workers ought to be lowered in cases where the player's forces are in position to attack cities, or if the AI is in position to attack player cities.


I agree with Cy: the early course of the war, as fought by Hocus and Jaffa, is where our success and victory were earned. Cy did make a strong choice to switch ships to cavalry, though. Looks like this thing is going to be already decided by the time it gets back to me. All I've had on each of my turns is lots of peace. This has to have played much different for Jaffa and Cy than it has for me. :)


- Sirian

Yeah, I have to say that Hocus and Jaffa did a sparkling job running the early phases of the war. All I did was wait for a city to starve and send in a "Your-Fate-Is-Sealed-Stack-O'Doom". You'll get a city or two though; in ten turns, I figure Charis can take maybe three cities if he goes for Persepolis first. Healing time, making sure cities don't flip, stuff like that...you'll get your share of mop-up ;)

-Skan

This is an interesting game, i like it :)
Good job against the Persians, i'm learning a lot from this game.

I used to Lurk too, for the record, hehe.

I'm on it... good job all :P

The big question going in -- go for blood (and the Persian capitol) or take the time to end the war, consolidate at Tarsus, and push the industrial improvements.
I meant to ask for thoughts on this early, but the forum wasn't accepting posts at the time.

I'll have the turn done tonight.
Charis

The valiant and relentless Indians had not only avenged the genocide of their
friends, the French, but they had struck a dagger into the very heart of Persia,
striking almost to their capitol. The people were ecstatic! They turned to the
pungent weed in celebration, and as one might expect, the line of CharisGangdhi
came once again to power. However, the discussion in his first cabinet meeting
was shrill indeed...

We have them by the short ones and can't let go! We've cowered in fear from the
Persians long enough, let's be DONE with them, once and for all! Thus cried
the military advisor, whose thirst for blood was not yet quenched. His domestic
advisor chimed in, "Our empire, once so strong in trade and matter of finance,
is now weak and in disarray. The people too, are so weary in war. It is time
for this to end. My friends, we have achieved our objective, as once fortold in
a vision to our forefather, Charis II -- "Tarsus!" The bolt-locked door to
the East. The military advisor spoke, "Charis, you KNOW how much you've been
pushing for 'Attack only with great differential advantage', and you cried out
that we chose heinous timing to start this war, delaying the learning of the ways
of the Cavalry, and waiting until they had riflemen. NOW, however, is the time
of advantage. They have no defense! If we take 8-1 odds and let them regrow
by seven, it's 15-8, or less than two-to-one." The Science advisor chimed in
here: "But if we focus on growth and build no more combat units at all, we'll
have tanks and mechanized infantry and the ability to pump them out at an
incredible rate!" He also noted "Sir, the Palace is due in Bombay
is due in just 18 seasons, we MUST research

Charisgandhi, no stranger to confusion, had again to make a tough choice, one
for peace or one for war. Actually, there was one _compelling_ factor which
guided his decision. In his heart, he wanted peace, but Persia refused to
greet his emissaries!

Five year plan:
1- Try to keep Pasagardae from flipping (not sure I know how ;p)
2- Beat down Persia until they're ready to accept peace on OUR terms
3- Do not neglect the economy in finishing up this war phase
4- Get Scientific Method asap and build the TOE wonder, slowing down Bombay shields a bit

1625 AD (0) - CharisGandhi VI ascends to the throne to the wild weed-induced
cheers of the masses.

1630 AD (1) - CG makes peace with the Zulus, and charging them 50 gold for it.
We reduce our weariness in half. The Persians will not hear from us, and will
be attacked mercilessly until they do! Some minor shifting, including
slowing DOWN the shield rate in Bombay, to give us time to learn of the
weed-induced theory of evolution :P The army positions itself to go after
the mighty city of Perseopolis. On the Persian turn, NOT A SINGLE action
taken. Now it is THEY who cower in fear! We complete the Wall Street in Delhi.
The people of Pasagardae demonstrate, and we scoff at them, driving as many
as we can right out of town. (In fact, some are complaining that the Persians (!)
drafted them, so they are considering reverting to Persia rule, go figure!)
Orleans seems to have had enough of this war, and they start to whine. We pump
a settler out of Tarsus, taking it down to size one, and move it "into the gap"
between Persepolis, Susa and Gordium. If we have to live and fight on this
forsaken continent, I want *one* India born-and-bred colony as a base.

1635 AD (2) - Military Rail completed to Pasargadae.
At least a dozen cavalry stormed upon Perseopolis. No artillery met them, and
three riflemen defeated, although all but three cavs were so hurt they had
to withdraw. One elite cav rolled over a conscript with no damage. Another
conscript popped up to defend. How many were there?

No more cavalry in the area. Hmm... One is brought up from Paris. He defeats
the conscript. Now a Knight appears to defend. They're getting worn down.
One more rides down all the way from Jaipur... he just smoked the tired and
scared Persian horseman, then nothing was left visible, but a catapult or
two. Perseopolis was ours in ONE round of fighting! The canons, about eight of
them, were still one turn away! It homes Shakespeare's theatre, and out of
respect, we do not raze the city. (After consulting the 'net' advisors, and
finding nothing said in this context.) Besides, it makes *8* unhappy citizens
content there. 6 resisters, and.. wow... Copernicus, Great Wall, and the
Pyramids. No idea if we can hold this culture rich city, and I'm not sure if
I want to garrison TOO many there and have them all flip, but let's at least
let the battle weary rest up and put down the resistance.

Persian response: refuse to acknowledge our envoy. (Did a raze earlier have
something to do with this??)

1640 AD (3) - The Zulu want to ally against the Americans. I appease (and yet)
mock them with a freewill gift of a world map instead. Hmm... they have Gems,
we have wines. We can sell gems for 14/turn, or get the trade for gems if
we give them 350 gold. An extra luxury would help us a lot, but that's kind of
steep. We compromise as us giving two luxuries for one of theirs. That let's
us kick down luxury costs to 10% and push science faster. It also doesn't
give them a big chunk of cash to use to trade for techs.

We complete Mil Rail straight into Perseopolis as first action.
New Bombay is founded in the heartland of Northern Persia :)

1645 AD (4) - On the Persian turn, three units move in our area. One cav rides
across the continent and mows down one of our cavs who ran ahead of Rifleman
cover. Two musketmen park outside of New Bombay. They are cut down like dogs.
We shift our forces toward Arbela. One workers takes a wrong turn and is left
out alone. Hmmm... a Persian cavalry picks him up, to have himself surrouned
by 18 of our units. You're right, this is a flaw. :P (I'm not trying to
bait, but I didn't see him hanging alone.)


1650 AD (5) - Americans ask for an MPP. 20-40 more years of war? No thanks Abe.
Hospitals are now getting completed, in addition to factories, coal plants,
cathedrals and more. I've had no new military built. (We're not losing any!!)
Hmmm, those aren't musketmen, they're conscript riflemen. Just the same, they die.
Dual prong assault, Bactra and Arbela. We put a hurtin on the former, but not
enough cavs to finish it. Arbela only has Musketmen, who give us not one,
but two elite cav, before taking the city. We keep it for now :P (CharisGandhi,
the fool, has no heart to raze.) An ironclad off Besacon shells it for fun, and
eliminates some citizens. (Where on earth have their ships gone?)

1655 AD (6) - We lose our supply of Zulu gems.
Sardis puts up strong resistance, two muskets almost holding off 4 elite cav,
but we prevail. (Just see now that their new capital is down in Ergili,
in the South.)

1660 AD (7) - Nothing has flipped yet. Maybe the cities of influence are just
disappearing too fast :P Somehow thought, the cultural borders have
shifted and one line of rail is 'in the green', leading to Parsigardae.
Two cavs had come at our riflemen guarding the rail, they withdrew, and
could not make it back to their city in time. So on our turn we pursued and
defeated the weakened units. Bactra finally fell, but took our heaviest
losses, two vet cavs.

1665 AD (8) - A few resistences end, no off-turn battles, and we're one turn from
electricity. Zulu and America come to peace. The Persians STILL refuse to talk to us!
Gordum, with just two musketmen falls, and gives up a catapult.

1670 AD (9) - Persia and America come to peace. Just one more city left to assault
in the North, Susa. Trying to starve some of the city. Perseopolis in particular
would be bad to flip. Just two conscript Riflemen in Susa, taken down by Canon
and two cavs, one turning Elite. The "Campaign of Northern Persia" is completed!
(Now if they'll only sign a peace treaty :P)

1675 AD (10) - Three cav come riding toward New Bombay. Glad it wasn't one square
South. Harbor of their new capital, Ergili, was destroyed ;) An ironclad
takes out a Frigate in the Tundra seas, then steams to Punjab for repairs.

The Persians still refuse to talk to our envoy. This is great loss for them, for
the next envoy we sent will be from the line of Yan! If he has ANY sense, he will
take peace, and very soon. You might also give gifts of World Maps to Zulu so he
doesn't bail out early of our trade agreement.

For the next technology after Scientific Method, you probably want to take the
cheapest one (Espionage?) since TOE will give us the two cheapest that we're not
working on (Replaceable Parts and Communism). Timing was a little off, getting two poor ones, and probably losing a few hundred shields holding Palace turnholder so long and diverting to Nationalism.

Thus ends the glorious reign of CharisGandhi VI. :egypt:

Now, get on your elephant and play your turn in succession game 2! The Nihongo are crying out for the mighty Charisgawa to lead them to greater prosperity! Or at least for a little pungent weed. [pimp]

After a brilliant campaign sacking the very heart of the Persian empire and capturing their capital, CharisGhandi was riding high. Not since the most ancient days of India had the line of Charis enjoyed such popular support across the whole of the Empire. While much ado was made about pungent weed, the truth is that no weed was being smoked. CharisGhandi and the current Senators of that noblest of lines displayed the most good humor about the illicit past of a few of their forefathers, who broke the law and indulged in the Weed. Continued monitoring of the situation by the SBI confirmed that the President was entirely clean, and was only humoring his political opponents because he simply had no fear of them whatsoever.

But then, mysteriously, the latest son of the CharisGhandi line, upon election to the family seat, declared an end to voluntary testing for Weed-Trace, saying that the point had been made and it was an insult to continue to insist on constant monitoring, and blah blah blah. Opponents smelled weakness.

Then the scandal broke! The new city in the heart of Persia, which bore the name of "New Bombay", in honor of the CharisGhandi line of old and the City of Charis, was found to have been settled not by Indians, but by PERSIANS! Yes, it's true, CharisGrandson-of-the-Weed had ordered Persians to be rounded up and moved around, all the whilst fraudulently pretending to be establishing a secure Indian settlement inside Persia! Leaders in the Senate immediately invoked the No Confidence vote and an investigation was conducted into the President's medical condition. He was found to have been smoking Pungent Weed and was sentenced to life without parole. The elder CharisGhandi testified that he did not know of his son's return to the old addiction, and in turning state's evidence, was cleared of all charges. The glory of his achievements at war were not tarnished and his approval remained somewhat high in the polls. A crackdown nationwide was made on weed smoking.

Who now would lead India? The Yans were much talked about, as they often rose to the fore after some scandal or other, but the Yans said a collective "No Thanks", as they had all gotten out of politics years ago. Hocus Merchants had also resigned from the Senate. The Monkey Party was nowhere to be found. In fact, a new kind of crisis came over India as nobody wanted to run for President!

The Senate fumbled around for a year or so, but there was so much party bickering and gridlock, it started to interfere with the war effort. Too much disarray was disrupting logistics, so reluctantly, General Siri-Yan agreed to allow himself to be nominated as Interim Prime Minister, until such time as somebody else stepped forward to run.

His inaugural address was quite short: "I'm no politician. Let the Senate debate whatever it pleases, and pass whatever laws, just don't interfere with the defense budget and everything will be all right."

As he turned to leave the podium, a senior reporter barked out a question. Not being a politician, Interim Prime Minister Yan paused out of courtesy. "What was that?"

The reported yelled out, "How long will you continue to serve?"

"Until the next election is held. Not long, I should hope."

"What if no suitable candidates appear? What then? At what point would you step down?" the reporter asked.

"If nobody else wants this difficult job, I'll see it through to the end of the war with the Persians."

"Even if the war drags on and on?"

General Yan started to catch on. These reporters could be a real pain in the backside. He turned and left the podium without any further comment.


For years, the front remained stalled right where it had sat when the Weed Scandal broke. General Yan continued to have nothing to do with political debate. His interviews were a few short questions and shorter answers, and his ratings in the polls dropped steadily as war weariness grew and there were calls for the Do-Nothing Prime Minister to resign.

Persia grew increasingly bold, sending an envoy to General Yan at his headquarters in Calcutta, offering to call a halt to the war and sign peace. The General entertained this envoy, asking what Xerxes was willing to offer India for peace.

"Offer?" scoffed the envoy. "The front has remained stalled for years! You are stretched too thin. A little more time and we might rout you right on back to Bombay where you belong! You are lucky we are willing to offer you peace at all."

General Yan drew his sword and lopped off the head of this lackey personally, before the dog had a chance to wag its tongue any further. "Send the body back to Xerxes. Tell him the head is decorating a pole overlooking my courtyard here in Calcutta. Persia started this war, but I am going to end it. Tell him he can surrender Antioch and Tyre to us, in exchange for one hundred years of peace with India, or it will be HIS head on a pole beside this one. Now go."

When Xerxes did not reply with his surrender, India entertained no further envoys from Persia. Their calls for more talks elicited no response whatsoever, not even any kind of acknowledgement.

More years passed, and nothing at all happened.

Yan's approval ratings went into the toilet. Persia mocked him from across the line, and even sent their troops into occupied Persia in a few feeble attempts to liberate their cities. Yan ordered all his troops to hold their positions. Cannon fired on the Persians as they drew near to the cities and fortified positions of Indian troops, decimating their ranks. Yan ordered some of these remnants mopped up, while others were allowed to make their little noises and yip and yap like pomeranians, then run back to Xerxes with tails between their legs. More years passed, and nothing at all happened.

Yan did order a few divisions of riflemen, supported by half of India's cannon brigades, across the line and into Persian held territory. They advanced slowly on Antioch, and Persia did attack them a couple of times, with poor results. A few units of cavalry that had been posted in the most remote corners of the empire were shuffled around in "routine maneuvers", drawing criticism from a number of politicians. Nothing much else happened.

In the winter of 1690 AD, fifteen years after coming to power, with no presidential elections at all held since, and industrial waste and pollution piling up around the Indian mainland, the trade agreement with the Germans expired. Siri-Yan botched the renegotiation, and Germany withdrew from the treaty, taking their incense with them. Two thirds of India broke out in riots which lasted all through the winter. The Senate begged Yan to act, but he repeatedly told them, "Let them riot, I don't care."

With approval ratings at an all time historical low (just 7%), General Yan sent an envoy to Persia with a message containing just one sentence: "This is your last chance to surrender." Persia replied with a laugh.

On April 2nd, 1690, the siege of Antioch began with massive cannon bombardment. The temple and marketplace of Antioch were destroyed, and the defensive positions of the Persian rifle divisions were struck hard, decimating their ranks. For five weeks, the cannon rained fire and death upon Antioch, and then out of nowhere arrived the Indian cavalry, sweeping through the breaches in the line to rout the beleaguered Persians. Antioch was won in just six hours of hand to hand fighting.

Elite units of engineers rushed into occupied Persian lands, laying rails to connect the Antioch lines to the Indian infrastructure. In just two short weeks, a line was operational. By rail and in secret, General Yan pulled every last horse and rider from every corner of the Empire and shipped them into the Antioch metropolitan area. And then they swept south, into lightly defended backline territory, brushing aside all opposition. Not even the highly fortified defensive positions of Tyre, located on the high ground, could hold out more than a couple of days. They could not even get word of the surprise attack out of the city, to warn their leaders in Ergili. Some of the most elite Indian divisions led the charge, and vanguard units suffered simply brutal casualties. The entire Seventh and Eighth divisions were wiped out, the Eighth to its last man, and still Yan ordered the troops up the hill into the teeth of Persian gunfire. And then just like that, the Persians broke and Tyre fell to the onslaught.

Siri-Yan then divided his force into three armies. One he sent southeast, to Buffalo. One he sent directly south to San Francisco. "Burn them to the ground." Those were their orders. The third force he led personally, on to Ergili. All three armies charged at breakneck speeds, catching the overconfident Persians unprepared. The world had never seen warfare like this! Elite Indian cavalry charged into the cities, routing the defenders at every turn, absorbing huge losses without pause or mercy. Buffalo burned for nine days, two thirds of its citizenry perishing in the carnage. The rest were rounded up and put in chains. Siri-Yan himself led the charge upon Xerxes's Palace in Ergili, and personally clove the dog's head from its shoulders and mounted it on a pike for display. He is rumored to have told the Persian King, just before slaying him, "You chose unwisely."

Our troops in San Francisco suffered from a supply line stretched too thin, and were unable to press their way to victory before the winter. When Siri-Yan heard of their retreat, he flew into a rage. "No!!! We MUST take San Francisco! We must take it NOW!" But the logistics would not allow it. One division of Persian conscripts there had dug in to a brilliant defensive position and held out, decimating even elite Indian Cavalry who tried to take them. Indian forces ran out of ammunition, food and water, and had to pull back.

On November 14th, with Snow falling on the ashes of Ergili as trainloads of Persian civilians were trucked out to begin forced labor on Indian rail lines, General Yan met with his political advisors. "General," said his top aide, "The riots continue unabated, despite our glorious victory. I fear that the government itself may fall unless you step down."

"Just a few more men," said Yan. "Just a few more men, a few more cases of ammuntion, a few more boxcars of rations, a few more gallons of water. San Fran should have been ours."

"Your plan was brilliant, General! We have crushed Persia for good. They are defeated! Let us call an end to this now and go home. You have kept your word. You have won the war. Let the career politicians bicker over what to do next. If you exit now, you will be hailed a hero, and they won't be able to tear you down."

The General returned with Xerxes's head to Calcutta, where he penned a letter to Xerxes's Cousin, who had formed up the remnants of the Persian goverment in the colonial lands, at the former English city of Reading. "Give us Cincinatti with all its silks, Memphis and Ghulaman, the contents of your treasury and 7 tons of gold per cycle in tribute, and I will sign a treaty promising Persia 55 years of peace with India. I urge you to agree."

The Persians returned the treaty with their signatures, and Prime Minister Siri-Yan travelled to Delhi, where he signed the treaty into law and then promptly resigned with no comment. He left office with an unprecedented 93% approval rating, after just three turns in control of India.

But who would be the next President now?

In the power vacuum that followed, a laborer from Punjab accidentally signed the wrong form while filing for unemployment insurance and became the only candidate on the ballot for President of India.

Lumberjack Lou was swept into office. He didn't do much of anything, except chop down half the forests in Persia "to create jobs", order the rest of the national labor force to "clean up the environment" from all the pollution left behind during General Yan's short term, and order research into "Replaceable Parts"for the steam powered saws in all his new lumber mills.

Somehow, India managed to survive this madness. The military continued the Yan policy of suppressing Persia through forced celibacy. Unable to breed, for the most part, with men and women held in separate prison camps across Persia, the Persian population was reduced to a manageable number in every city on the continent except Tyre, where the military maintained a strong garrison. Whether this was merciful, or cruel, continues to be debated, but all agree that it was a step up on the humanitarian scale from starvation, which had been used earlier. Thusly, did the legacy of Siri-Yan not only include the final conquest of Persia through his "lightning war" tactic, sweeping away the entire Persian armed force in a few short months with an unrelenting assault, but also the securing of the occupied lands. The Celibacy Law expired in 1725, and the now muchly reduced Persian peoples were granted full citizenship within India.

While Lumberjack Lou's reign was noted for not much of anything except cheap lumber, all that chopping of trees did speed the construction of Indian temples in occupied Persia, which was otherwise paralyzed by corruption. A few were even completed. The treasury, which was depleted to almost zero by the zealous defense spending of Siri-Yan, was slowly rebuilt, and interest from the surplus began to increase. The silly Replaceable Parts concept for powered wood saws turned out to be useful after all, as the military figured out how to make guns and cannons with this same concept. Perhaps the next President will be able to modernize our military forces, if the country has the will to spend yet more on defense. We shall see.

Ganges has begun construction on a great project, a dam. How it will be finished, nobody knows. Lumberjack Lou pushed it through, though. Another of his pork barrel projects. When far northeastern Persia was completed defoliated, and some of the mills had to close, Lou dropped in the polls and was swept out of office.

Xerxes's shriveled, shrunken head still adorns a pike outside the Yan winter residence in New Calcutta, on the very site of the former Persian Palace. Not much is left besides the skull.

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(Here is the saved game from the end of my turn, for the next player to grab. The one from 1690 is purely for the curious).

- Sirian

Because I picked up from charis's turn to see how the world looked (I'm not seeing as many screenshots as I used to), and decided to take Antioch on my first turn. Since there were only two defenders, I didn't bother bombarding it, I just rushed in and took it with the cavalry and the Persians sued for peace right then. Since all they would accept was a straight peace treaty deal, I decided to tell them to stuff it but I wasn't too serious about continuing with the war and never took Tyre (though I cut their supply of horses so I wouldn't see any more cavalry and they were more or less decimated militarily by that time)

In other news, when I got Scientific Method, the palace in Bombay was so far along that ToE finished in a single turn with a waste of 334(!) shields and no chance of getting anything but communism and espionage.

As for the germans, they must have lost their excess spice, since no matter what I put on the table (including sanitation and whatever else you had but they didn't), it was always "They would never accept such a deal". Maybe check the German borders to see if any spice has changed hands? They aren't embargoing us since I was able to sway them into other deals including embargoing persia for wine.

Preventing revolt was my only priority at first, and I was pulling units from all over the empire to send to Persia. I've heard that if a garrison contains more units than the city has population, it won't flip no matter what. Well, I've been trying that out, and have not lost a captured city since, including through some rather dim-looking far-flung capital and wonder captures.

Sure, Antioch was ripe for plucking, and maybe nothing would revolt, but why take the chance? The AI is pathetic at defense. It only defends front line cities. (It IS smart enough to know what's on the front line, and what's not). Everything else is left with one or two defenders, and all extra units are sent out on the attack, with workers be the end-all priority target, and everything else but the threat (in most cases) is targetted next. The AI's are thus just so much wheat before a blitzkrieg with rails and cav/tanks, regardless of whether or not they have expended all their offensive units. I've pulled off similar moves and then been counterattacked by fifty cavalry on the next turn -- but invariably they target workers first (can't avoid it, as new workers get captured and I can't track every possible AI move), then they target easy-to-kill stragglers, and mostly ignore trying to retake their lost cities. :rolleyes:

Since Tyre was on a hill, and so was Buffalo, I absolutely did not want either of those cities to become the front line, with the AI drafting and whatever else. I saw that I could take them all in one turn if I prepared well, and as it was, half of India went undefended briefly to muster enough garrison, even though I razed two of the cities. I expected to raze San Fran, too, but came up short. Tyre and Buffalo had been pretty tough.

My objective was to rid us of the Persian threat for all time by depriving them of the rest of their homeland cities, while still making certain none of our gains revolted. I accomplished what I wanted in three turns. Perhaps it could have been done faster, but I don't gambit on EVERY turn I take. :)

By the way... the 1690 zip contains both the "before" and "after" saves from that turn.


- Sirian

Well that was an unexpected although pleasant turn in the Yan reign! I thought war was done, but Sirian's push was strong and VERY effective. Gaining the cities in the treaty was, I thought, a bit much -- then again I've not asked for cities as peace terms.

But...

With replaceable parts comes Infantry to *those that have rubber*.

We don't have rubber, but...

To the East and West of Cincinnati, either way, is RUBBER. To the east the Persians guard it at Dariush Kabir. I would think a rapid build up of units to Cincinnati followed by a strike on Dariush would have long term benefits, and any counterattack would have to deal with our new infantry. (Hmm... need a harbor there to trade it... can rush it in Ghulaman for about 300 gold)
I'm glad you posted year 1690, wow, now that's a blitz :goodjob:

Way to go Sirian :)
Charis

There is also rubber on the island *just* to the west of madras (on the same computer screen). It is not in occupied territory yet.

And there is a fine galleon for transport at madras 8-).

It is a problem for the next president to solve 8-).

Speaking of which, Charis, we seem to have a gap in our line of succession. As you initiated this game and set the rules, I feel it is your call. Should Jaffa assume power forthwith?

We have had an offer to fill the breach, which no one has addressed (probably because no one felt they had the authority). Should we accept? Or as, the rest of us have played together this far and gotten a bit of cohesion, and we all have an alternate line of communication, should we finish with what we have and invite those interested into the next game?

I was about to add a disclaimer along the lines of "I'm not trying to dump this on you, but...", but actually, I AM trying to dump this on you 8-).

I also feel I am better served accepting an executive decision and getting on with this game and future ones than in debating the status of this one, so I give you my proxy.

Let's just keep the mighty purple elephant rolling and move on to future challenges 8-).

--cy

Cy, no dumping at all, tnx for reminding me of the 'gap'. I would have to thank all participants both for doing a splendid job playing, and to resolving the friendly fire (or least calling a peace treaty ;p). The roster and turn order now stands as:

Charis
Sirian
Jaffa
Cy
Skandranon

24hrs to post 'Got it', 'Pass this round' or post the results. After a got it, another 24 hrs (or 48 hrs from last post, whichever is longer), to play the turn and post results. Keep in mind you don't HAVE to take the full 10 turns if time is short.

This is definitely a quorum, and we'll stick with these til game end. Thanks to those offering to hop in -- but we're just too far along and expect no further drops at this point. We look forward to playing with you in another game soon :p

A note of thanks too, to the lurkers who de-lurk enough to say they're enjoying the game. That does encourage the extra effort in our write-ups :love:

Without further eloquence, let's get back to conquering the earth!

Charis

PS Good eye, Cy on that rubber. *IF* the world map is current and it's still up for grabs, that might be a VERY nice goal for our next player. We'll want a rubber source from somewhere very soon.

Hi! Just wanted to say that this has been a fun game to read about. :)

Keep up the good work everyone, I hope everyone is having as much fun playing as we, readers, are having.

:fish:

And so the wise men of India came once again in search of the Monkey Cult. They searched the abandoned temple, and sent agents of the SBI to pose as banana-vendors at bazaars throughout the land, but no trace of the tailed ones could be found. And then, just as it seemed they would have to turn instead to the ale-houses to find their king, a note was shoved beneath the door. It was signed with the mark of a pawprint, and said simply, "Build railroads. And get some rubber."

So build railroads they did. In every space that a railroad could conceivable be of any use, they sent workers to lay tracks. The workers complained muchly of being sent up into the mountains, where it was cold and the work was hard, but the directive had been clear, and into the mountains they must go.

Two galleons were outfitted and sent in search of rubber. One headed west, and founded New Lahore in the jungle lands. The other went south, to a place where rubber could be stolen from Persian control, but was thwarted when the Persians moved their borders before the expedition arrived. But rubber was found near New Lahore, and arrived on the Indian mainland in 1758.

The wise men argued at great length as to what to do with the second expeditionary ship. It was directed to head towards New Lahore, where there was, just about, space for a second settlement on the opposite coast, but has not yet arrived.

At around this time the Zulus announced they would no longer be sending their gems to Indian bazaars. There was some grumbling, but the populace was mollified when a new amusement was found -- watching the manouvres of the English fleet as the y circled pointlessly off the Indian coast.

With the continent thoroughly railroaded, and rubber acquired, the wise men declared that the directives of the Monkey Cult had been properly observed. It was time, they said, for a new leader to take control of Indian destiny...

Well done securing the rubber source and executing your term well. Looks like when Electronics is done (soon) it will be just in time for Ganges to knock off the Hoover Dam in short order :goodjob:

(Holy Cow! Lil Ganges??! The "finger" town of Cy? Cranking out 50 shields per turn and housing an uber-wonder?!) :love:
What's particularly good about Hoover's is that: i) you get EFFECTS of Hydro plant even if you couldn't build one in your city (ie no river, like most of our top cities), and for us, it's for all on continent, and we're on a megacontinent :P

Good luck to Cy and Skan,
Charis

The citizens of India begged the monkey party to continue their wise government, but they abandoned the highest office to research the perfect banana daiquiri. This left only the “cheap beer” party to run against the “let’s bang our heads against the wall party”. Facing that choice, the wise citizens of India opted for the cheap beer, and Cy_Ghandi took control.

Unfortunately for fair India, he skipped the transitional briefings to take his son to a curious event called by the uncouth name of “monster jam” and returned late into the night muttering strange tales of a giant, wheeled beast known as “monster patrol” driving over the tops of other, lessor, k-car, wheeled beasts. Most odd. Fortunately for India, he inherited a situation virtually impossible to screw up.


The overriding theme of his tenure in office was to be frustration. The primary source of frustration lay in the country’s internal labor situation. The beer-sotted-ears-ringing president wished to allow the workers the freedom to finish the rail net in the manner they thought was best while remaining free to clean up pollution as needed. However, he had a rather distinct vibe from his cabinet that he was required to instruct every single worker, as they finished their previous task, exactly when, where, why, how, to what extent, and under what conditions to labor next. The only bright spot was that there were only 25 workers, whereas on a country this size, the President would normally be running 50-75 workers, which might explain his abhorrence of individual direction versus the convenience of shift-a once the military net is in.

The secondary source of frustration was to be the rubber situation. Everyone now thinking of condoms is required to go outside, slap themselves firmly in the face, and say out loud “I AM a dirty chap, I AM a dirty chap, I AM a dirty chap.”

Contrary to a lot of Civ3 fans, I think the feature of resources expiring is fun. That also means I want 2 of the end-game resources—rubber, oil, aluminum, and uranium. We have only one rubber (look, I warned you once, now you have to slap yourself TWICE, and look up the meaning of saltire, and write a 5 paragraph essay on why you should never accept a ride to church from someone who calls the confederate battle flag the stars and bars, because they don’t know the difference between a bar and a cross). The first is on the end of a loooooong supply line and adjacent to the current Persian capitol. The other is juuuuuust out of reach in Persian territory. Both are on other islands from our glorious continent. I want to knock the putrid Persians back from both of these points. I have the military. I don’t have the transport. Grrrrrr. It COULD be done, but it is much better to wait until we upgrade our galleons to transports. Grrrrrr. Over the course of my turn, I construct a few more Galleons to be upgraded…

1762. Rail king.

1764. Founded New Karachi near the rubber city (look, do I have to slap you down? STOP thinking like that). Persian cultural pressure is intense. Bummer. Still, Jaffa, you beat a Persian settler by one turn sequence—they were in spot to settle, but our turn was first.

1766. Electronics! Woot. The great leader Chandragupta drafts a momentous project—the idea is to pen up a great river until it acquires great force, then release it in measured amounts and use the energy to build our empire. I approve the concept, and send him to Ganges to survey the site. I judge it as the best city—on a river, yet in the interior and safer from sea attacks or fire from the sky. He goes with great enthusiasm, but reports back that a previous President has already set the plan to build this wonder into motion, and that all the raw materials are in place and the project can be completed in only 4 turns. Woah dude. Upon consulting with my advisors, it appears I was informed of this before I took office. I mutter something about “monster truck exhaust affecting my brain” and send the leader off to Paris to get drunk. The Hoover Damn is begun.

1768. In the off-turn between 1766-1768 Shaka comes calling and demands espionage or he will come to raze all out cities. I invite him to take his unique unit, encase it in rubber (hey, it’s a running joke), and insert it up his aqueduct. Shaka mutters something about needing to see a man about a dog, and scuttles off. On my turn, I go fishing to see how badly he wants it. Badly. Hmmm. I do the diplomatic route to see what is up. America already has it. Germany offers only 13 gold, which to me says they will have it in 1 or 2 turns. England offers only 21 gold. I decide that espionage will be common knowledge in 1 or 2 turns among the AI, and go back to Shaka. I trade it to him for Incense, his pitiful treasury, and 36 gold per turn. Idiot. I understand the principle of not trading with the AI when you have the tech lead, but this one was worth it 8-). All the same, I grow tired of outrageous demands by other nations. As we were not in peril, I have been husbanding funds to get our saving up to 1k gp on each turn, so that we receive the maximum bonus of 50 gp per turn from the Wall Street. I now decide that penny wise is pound cliché, and upgrade all our riflemen to infantry. The good news is we have 74 infantry. The bad news is I am going to have to hit the @!^%#$^%@#$^@%$ “f” key 74 times next turn…

1770. Railroad from hell and carpal tunnel from the upgrades.

1772. When is it good when you suck? When you are a Hoover! The Hoover Dam is completed.

1774-1780. Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

Notes: Refining is due in 2 turns. After I post this, I’m going to see where the oil sprouts, but I haven’t yet. Heh.

We have 566 in the bank, and are at +69 per turn. 1k in the bank is ideal for wall street, but ya gotta spend when ya gotta spend. We’ll probably need on the order of 4k in the bank to upgrade to mech infantry, so keep that in mind. We have 93 infantry right now—somewhere between 100 and 150 is probably overkill. I’ve aced out the swordsmen, but there are still about 20 cav around. They are borderline useless now, except vs Persia.

I have a couple of settlers stashed in case of opportunities.

I have one settler on the way to a square near the rubber that probably will vanish before he gets there. That whole idea was a bust. The square he was originally sent to we got via cultural expansion the same turn he was due to settle, so I set him in motion to a secondary and sucky location. There actually was a point when I sent him, but now he is a wandering idiot…

On the rubber thing—how do you feel about red ribbed? Whoops, wrong forum. Anyway, I beefed up forces around it a bit, but it is still at the end of a long string. If you want to get aggressive, I have made some more Galleons. I personally thought the supply line was tenuous before transports, but I can be an old granny sometimes. I mean, we have 93 infantry right now. We can afford a few turns without rubber without noticing 8-).

Oh, and whoever jobbed Elizabeth on the trades, good job. The pacts are long since expired, we are draining her treasury, yet she does not renegotiate 8-).

--Cy

One note about AI offerings in trade: when they offer little, it may mean they place low value on your offering, or it may mean they are too broke to afford it and will happily let you play philanthroper if you are of a mind to. It's up to you to figure out if their offer is up to par, or merely trying to sucker you.

One easy way to tell the difference, is if you try to increase the gold per turn by 8%-10% of the total net worth of their offering and they "would never accept such a deal", they are broke. If they are behind other AI's in tech, they are broke. (AI's will always sell one another tech IF the other can afford the current market value. Unless they are at war.)

The English got Communism first, on my turn, right before Theory of Evolution. I tried to buy it from them, even offering a tech (because we'd get another tech ahead anyway), but no dice. They may well be close to the breakthrough, but the Germans looked pretty darn broke last I saw them. Did you try to raise the price on the English? See if they really did value it low?


- Sirian

That was quick. See below.

-Skan

At the urging of his cabinet, CyGandhi takes a well deserved rest, and goes off to vacation with the English ships off the Indian coast, bringing lots of cheap beer.

The English ships will sail in circles off the coast for another twenty years and counting. Oh well. In his absence, the Hippopotamus Party conducts a coup and takes over.

1782 - Upon casual inspection of the cities, twelve Coal Plants are discovered. They don't provide extra benefit (they don't stack with Hoover's Hydro) and so they are sold to a mystery group of investors, who buy all twelve for 240 gold. This also frees up 36 gold/turn in maintenance, and suddenly India's finances are looking much rosier. Much movement of workers is undertaken. Plans to secure another source of Rubber are scrapped - since Rubber doesn't run out, if we hold on to the source we have (should not be hard) we're set for life.

1784 - Refining is discovered! A great miracle - India has two local sources of Oil. New Madras is built upon one, and one is near Persepolis. The Eighteenth Cavalry Brigade is sent immediately to the one near Persepolis and proceeds to tear up all roads leading to the area and post large KEEP OUT signs all around, on Presidential order. Cheap beer? Pungent weed? The media hypothesizes, but none understand.

1786-1792 - Much movement of workers. The President commissions fifteen new divisions of artillery pieces, not noticing the twenty existent upgradeable cannon divisions. Large cities with nothing else to build orient their productions to wealth, as India goes for an econ-tech push. During this time, India's profit grows to over 200 gold/turn while maintaining peace and order, as well as researching as quickly as possible. The treasury exceeds 1500 tons of gold. A prophet of the Monkey Cult is found in Delhi muttering the words "Waiting for tanks!" over and over again. The media wonders. At the same time, legions of workers tear up irrigation ditches all over India and put in mines instead.

1794 - Reports stop coming in from the city of Zimbabwe. Zulu cavalry units mass on the borders of Cincinnati and Ghulaman. An envoy sent to clarify Shaka's intentions is returned to Delhi...and to Madras...and to Bombay...and to.... The media chooses not to elaborate. The Zulus declare war on India. Realizing that there is no way whatsoever to defend the outer cities, the President calls up his good friend Abraham Lincoln and offers a mutual protection pact if Lincoln will part with five gold per turn. Lincoln happily agrees.

1796 - Zulu cavalry swarm towards India's extracontinental holdings. Cincinnati and Memphis fall. New Lahore forces two Cavalry away without taking a hit. Ghulaman is taken and razed(!). America, reacting to this heinous breach of world peace, declares war on the Zulu. The Zulu then attack America, triggering America's MPP with the Germans, who also mobilize and declare for the Americans. Zulu units retreat from Indian shores. They have bigger worries now. Due to the loss of the Zulu gold and luxuries, domestic readjustment is called for.

1798 - The Germans call and graciously cancel the trading agreement for dyes. Financial intelligence reveals that this is because they are completely broke. This is confirmed a day later when the President innocently offers the German Ambassador Ivory, Wine, Dyes and Furs for one gold and the German ambassador is forced to say "I'm sorry, but Germany can't do that right now." The ambassador is later discovered sobbing into his pillow. A single Zulu ironclad goes up to the Indian shores and discharges a single shot which misses the railroad it was aimed at.

1800 - Combustion is discovered. The Zulus are nowhere to be found. Some cities go into disorder due to unhappy citizens complaining about the war, but a good dose of money put into luxuries and sedatives keeps order. However, the President is soon found to be partaking of too many of these sedatives and is ousted from office.

Comments and stuff:

All right, I don't know what pushed the Zulus into war, maybe profit jealousy or something. They have seven workers of ours, and took out three of our least productive cities - no big loss in any case. With America and Germany going after them, I doubt they'll be able to pose any serious threat to our continent. IMO, we can wait for Motorized before we do anything active against them. I have a sneaking suspicion that the Zulus will do a good job against the broke Germans, but we can afford to wait. They'll grind at each other long enough for us to deliver the lethal stroke, I think.

Sorry about the MPP, Charis and Sirian. Lincoln was asking for Coal or Electricity for the alliance. He HAS coal, one square outside the borders of Kansas City, but the AI being the AI, he won't touch it for another century at least and every turn America spends without railroads is better for us. Germany wouldn't attack Zululand straight up but by activating their MPP with Abe, we can get them into the party for free. I tried to have Elizabeth join the fun but she wouldn't take anything other than Electricity.

Domestically, we are pretty sound. I did replace a lot of irrigation with mining, just because our early cities have too much irrigation. Specialists in Civ3 seriously bite. They provide either one tax or one science, added at the end (i.e. is not enhanced by libraries, universities, wonders etc). So there's no benefit to excess food, and I adjusted what I could so that most cities had just enough food to have 20 or 21 citizens and pretty robust productions. We have lots of gold now, too, even while going at 50% science and 20% lux. We COULD get Mass Prod in 4 turns instead of 5 but that means we take a -20 gold hit each turn. I prefer sacrificing one turn of speed for seven hundred gold, dunno about you.

As for the oil, I cut one off because I don't want to risk them both going on the same turn. Having two only increases risk, it doesn't do anything else.

Anyway, all I did was set up, the real fireworks should come during Charis' turn. Good luck!

-Skan

EDIT: Got it! Thanks for the repost, should be done this afternoon.

Skan, I can't seem to unzip your upload :( (Bad CRC) If you could repost, or if any of the rest of you CAN unzip it, please re-zip and repost. If caught soon I can play, otherwise it won't be til tomorrow eve. :eek:

Charis

There, I just tried it again.

-Skan

The AI covets cities with resources. It's ONLY higher priority is capturing workers. :rolleyes:

If Cincinatti was never reinforced, then one nonvet rifle (or inf) sitting there was like waving a sign saying "Kick Me". I did all I could on my turn, including building a galleon and sending it in that direction. Given a few more turns, there would have been about eight more rifles and some artillery down there.

Securing rubber was a higher priority, though, and depending on how strongly that town was garrisoned, it may also have been part of the attraction for the Zulu, although I kind of doubt it if they don't have Rep Parts yet.

This kind of "nothing will deter them, they are coming" invasion, against a lightly defended city with precious resources, is what I've been warning against since the beginning of the game, to encourage the team to keep enough forces in Madras and Calcutta, then later in Chittagong, to deter aggressors. I'm kind of surprised, with how lightly Madras was defended at times, that the English never attacked us. I see these kind of wars in most of my games, even though I know about them and try to prepare or deter.

The MPP's will take the heat off us, but if one of the other AI's collapses, it may mean that a new superpower emerges that will have to be attacked and subdued. Sometimes, trying to be peaceful builders just doesn't work out if the AI's tear into each other so much, that some become too strong. If Persia hadn't been so aggressive, taking lands from France and America, and had sat back in their initial area peacefully, this could have been a much less bloody game. So it goes.

By the by, the Zulu's attacking us while still owing us a bunch of gold casts some long shadows over the decision to sell them tech. If I thought Cincinnatti was not going to be reinforced heavily and immediately, I wouldn't have asked for it, but post-Hocus I have been reserving more of my thoughts about upcoming turns. So I'll take the blame for setting us up for this war. Just know that that wasn't my intention: there was no secret Yan plot to set off such a crisis as this.


- Sirian

The country was in turmoil. The great nation of India had been defeated in an
unexpected blitz war. The people were in an uproar, they called for new, strong
leadership. Some, perhaps too many... turned to the pungent weed!! Once again
the line of Charis ascended to the throne. He looked about the country, and
set forth the following as goals:

1. Maintain strong economy with 1000 gold to max interest.
2. Recapture Memphis and if possible, the other cities in the area.
3. Fortify our Western rubber colony.
4. Punish the Zulus.
5. Develop the awesome weapon of war known as the 'tank'.

Thus did he start by loading up cavalry, infantry and artillery to Memphis,
bring a settler in case it was autoraised. Also did he found a 'bridge' city
on the Western colony.

1800 AD (0) - Up'd the science rate to get Mass Production in 4 turns, switched
Calcutta and Delhi from wealth to placeholder for Battleship. If they want a sea battle,
CharisGandhi will give them one to send them crying for momma! Upgraded a galleon
in Madras to Transport (too bad southern coast cities don't have harbor yet!)
Had Bengal kick out a Settler (one turn, minimal shield loss)
Loaded up a Galleon with 2 Elite Cav, 1 Infantry and 1 Artillery, sent it
to Cologne at max speed.

1802 AD (1) - During their turn, naval Bombardment at Pasagarde. Aha, a target for
our not-yet-built Battleship already! The Germans seek an MPP. Hmmm... well with
them MPP to Americans and us MPP to Americans, it doesn't hurt. Promoting
in-fighting with the #2 and #3 AI's seems a good thing. Hopefully once these two
MPP's expire, we won't see any more for a while. Loaded up our Elite Cavs onto
the Transport and Galleons. This is their last chance for glorious battle (and
for trying for a GL) since soon they will be outclassed by Tanks. The transport
will land troops on the doorstep of New Ngome the very next turn :)

1804 AD (2) - Persians request an audience? Oh, trade territory maps? Sheesh,
can't you see I'm busy? Ya, ok, fine. Triple pollution hits. Well at least now
I know what to do with the gazillion workers I'm ordering around :P

The city of "Pungent Weed" is founded! Right between New Lahore and New Karachi.
It's the West colony 'bridge' city, and founded squarely in the jungle, the home
of ALL manner of pungent weeds! The people are most pleased!

1806 AD (3) - Lincoln must be broke, and can't renew RPP for cash, so we renew
for free. Zulu colonge Riflemen go on *offense* against our infantry and are
just crushed. Infantry goes against a 1hp Cav in the hills and becomes Elite.
New Ngome is crushed, and autorazed. We should get one of those spare settlers here
for a nice beachhead city. We capture Cologne, and have another rubber source :)
This also denies Germany (one of) their rubber without even going to war against
them. We note that New Intombe, near the Rubber colony, is defended only by
Pikemen!

1808 AD (4) - Persia and Zululand have signed an embargo against us? Evil!
Pasagarde is upset by the news and needs entertainment. we note no other
ill effect. We're going to have a "talk" with Persia about this!! For now
we have them sign a trade embargo vs Zulu, and I tell Persia to pull its butt
out of my territory!

Heading for Motorized Transport in 4 turns, and still positive
cashflow :P Two Battleships and one sub set to arrive within 1-2 turns.
Placeholders for tanks started in Lahore, Bengal, Kohlapur, Madras.

Memphis is scantly defended and defeated by an Elite Cav (no GL).

1810 AD (5) - Cincinnati, with an Impi defender, pulls in its workers. (How nice
of them to gather them for our capture!) Two cavs take out Cincinnati's Impi
and Horsemen. We note America had a literal blockade of the port :P
Shift defenders, workers, and note that an oil source has been opened up due
to a razing! We're rushing a settler over asap!

1812 AD (6) - Karachi's influence expands, no doubt due to the new local source
of Pungent weed!! New Jaipur is founded where New Ngome was located.

1814 AD (7) - New Hyderabad is founded, not far from Dariush Kabir in the South
and within a Knight's move of the Rubber. If we raze Dariush, we get the rubber :P

1816 AD (8) - Tanks online baby! Turn to Radio next, last required tech before
modern age. Power-cleanup of two pollutions. Moved placeholders to tanks. In some
cases, a LOT of shields there, so kept with Battleship.

1818 AD (9) - The American dye treaty for 14gold/turn expires. We renew for 13/turn.
At end of turn, Persians settle Ergili not too far from where we plan to settle oil.
Glad we got to the 'prime' spot first ;P

1820 AD (10) - Polution found and cleaned up in Delhi, Indus, and Kolhapur.
New Bengal is founded, right next to the oil. (Considered putting in on the
coast, but that would be two squares away and someone else could build closer.
There are currently no roads to oil, just a tank and cav parked on it. Up to
future leaders to decide whether to leave it unconnected or not. There's a
worker in the city ready if/when we want to do that ;p

Seven turns left on America's MPP, 14 left on the Persian embargo vs Zulu,
Ten on the German MPP and 14 on their embargo. The English continue to pay through
the nose for saltpeter and luxuries ;P The Zulus refuse our ambassadors. I
guess they need another city taken! :) Thus ends the reign of CharisGandhi VII.
The zulu naval bombardment continues at Pasargarde. I have enough workers on
permanent station there that any round in which they hit and destroy improvements,
we can repair them instantly. In about four rounds, our Battleship now rounding
the corner at Sardis will arrive and pound them severely. (BTW, the recent
histograph is lookin great!)

To our next leader, there's a real mix of production, and no doubt several items
you wish to change. Although we have many infantry, they are REALLY spread
around, and we're by no means secure from another offensive "push" from a foe.

Good luck,
Charis

From the Unfinished Memoirs of Ciree-Yan the First:

1819AD: After a string of successful terms in office by the CharisGhandi family, the latest of them has once again flaunted the anti-weed laws too publicly for too long. I have been nominated to run against him in the next election. Why couldn't these guys just LAY OFF the weed? Too much of that stuff leads to bad decisions, like leaving all our artillery in mothballs while allowing the Zulu to endlessly harass our coastlines unmolested. Smoking ses a bad example for the rest of the country, too. One of my first campaign promises is to actually defend our land at home, as well as abroad, by permanently chasing off the Zulu warships. I might send Shaka a message he can understand. ... Yes, yes I think I'll plan on doing that. I'll arrange to have an emissary deliver the message to Zimbabwe at the earliest opportunity.

1820AD: Won the election, signed the order for the outgoing Mahatma to undergo extensive rehab. Shuffled a few items in the defense budget.

1821AD: Wondered why the Palace is being moved to Kolhapur. (More evidence of the Weed, I fear). Well, that's not an urgent matter, so I'll deal with it some other time.

1822AD: Invaded Zululand.

1826AD: Shaka wants to talk, does he? NOW he wants talk? Where was the talk when his army burned Ghulaman to the ground?

1832AD: The antiwar demonstrations are getting out of hand. If these peaceniks don't quiet down, I'm going to have to take some action. What do these fools expect? As long as the campaign doesn't descend into TOTAL disaster, they have nothing legitimate to complain about. That massacre of workers outside New Lahore was simply a well-executed Zulu manuever, not a sign of our imminent defeat. What's the big deal anyway? We only lost eight units of workers. The army can afford to hire more.

1834AD: The Senate asked for my resignation. So I had them all shot.

1836AD: It's good to be the King. No more polls, no more focus groups, no more news media, no more demonstrators. I should have done this years ago.

1839AD: My advisors warned me of a plot against my life. I scoffed at them, the fools. No one would dare to cross me.


King Ciree-Yan the First was assassinated in 1840AD by rivals or enemies unknown. The whole kingdom is in an uproar. What will become of our long struggle against the treacherous Zulu without Yan to lead us? Will another King be chosen? Or will our democracy be restored? Will the endless war go on and on, or will the peaceniks have their way? So many questions...

Wow, very well done. That's quite a string now of very nice campaigns. For a change I opened the save file and looked at the minimap before reading the 'epic log' and saw that literal string of purple where once was abundant yellow. Zulu is out of the game within the next turn if our next player (Jaffa iirc) sees fit. Good call on the switch to Monarchy. That worked SO well for the extended war in the Japan game, I was going to suggest that here as well.

You can tell from the city name that weed was present, but not strong weed. I was baiting the zulu ships, letting them pound without any harm at all far from the true field of battle, rather than going after a transport full of top units. I didn't want to drive them away, and saw them as dogmeat once the battleship engaged them. (Then again, yes, I didn't even consider using the artillery there, good idea for next time ;p) The 'gap' or small lead we had is now turning into a gaping hole. Seeing tanks vs archers and impi is amusing. I'm also now seeing why Panzers likely rock. That extra 1 pt movement can really make a blitz fly, I would have to think looking at recent turn of events.

It's getting almost assured that we can soon PICK our victory condition (no preference here, btw ;p) :goodjob:

Charis

EDIT- PS- Hey Cy, did I mention I was just HOWLING at your report! tnx!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :goodjob:

Well done guys. There were some times where I thought you would have to work very hard for victory, but now it's in the bag [pimp] .

Still playing civ2, I have started my own game, in honour of this one, and am now in the middle of crushing the evil English off the face of the world! [plasma]

smegged: we DID have to work hard. That war with the Persians started at an unfortunate time for us and some cities were lost in the shuffle. The campaign to fight them back spanned all six players' turns and took more than 50 game turns, and could well have gone badly if not for solid play in the early years. If that's not work, I don't know what is. :)

Seeing tanks vs archers and impi is amusing. I'm also now seeing why Panzers likely rock. That extra 1 pt movement can really make a blitz fly

Yes. Which is why cavalry do NOT go obsolete until mech inf are on the scene, and even then they can still be useful as flank harassment, pillagers, or garrison. Even swords and longbows are useful as extra garrison, when bodies are needed to keep more troops in a city than it has pop, to eliminate the risk of flipping until you can starve them down, so I have ceased to disband them in my games.

Three of my captures vs the Zulu were directly made by cavalry, in locations where three movement were required to be able to attack. If not for that (and securing the rails between, thereby), the Zulu would still have about ten cities, instead of only three (and I could have had Mpondo if I had conserved some cavalry I didn't need to use elsewhere on that last turn).

The REAL evidence of weed, strongest proof to date, however, was CharisGhandi sending all our "obsolete" elite cav into battle "in search of a great leader". My brother, you really ought to hit F3 now and then, and check to see if someone else has left you a great leader already. You can only have one, and sending the whole army searching the countryside for something sitting right under your nose is certainly not the kind of evidence you want turning up during an investigation into Puffing the Magic Dragon.

:smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: ;)

We've had one in mothballs for a good 80 or 90 turns by now, if not more, ostensibly saving him for rushing the UN, since prebuilding with the Palace has allowed us to secure all the wonders since Suffrage. (I don't think the team anticipated such a war push, but sometimes the AI's force it on you). Looking back, yes, we could have used that first one to build an army, and had two or three more by now, but that's the benefit of hindsight. :)

Unless a leader comes SO early that rushing Pyramids or SunTzu, et al, is just too tempting, or an early FP too valuable-looking, and an army just doesn't look to be of much use, then I always turn that first leader into an army, make sure to get him a victory, and build the Epic, and then use more leaders as they emerge to rush whatever looks ripe at the time. Contrary to Carbon Copy, I get plenty of leaders. Perhaps I get into more wars, though, as I don't often give in to AI threats -- unless I am genuinely scared of what they can do to me (my position overexposed).

Tanks run over anything less strong than Infantry, and can even bowl those over in sufficient numbers. Panzers are simply AMAZING, I've swept entire nations away, even ones defended by infantry, in a matter of turns. If a war lasts until Modern Armor, it's usually because the AI's were strong in tech (high difficulty) and have held out to getting their own tanks and mech inf. If they are not yet up to Infantry when you get tanks, cavalry are a main offensive unit still: the light raider style of unit, capable of inflicting terrible damage behind the lines on blitz maneuvers, after the front line city has been taken on that turn by the tanks.


- Sirian

I'll bet you even find Tarnhelms and Gull daggers, too. I have to depend on KingOfPain for all such items, he's got so many of them that he actually throws them away!! :eek: :eek: :eek:

I somewhat make up for it, though, by finding all sorts of Heavenly Garbs and Skystrikes. Which reminds me, I'll have to log in with some of my mule accounts or Battle.net will eat them. :(

In an unprecedented turn of events, the Monkey Cult appears at the appointed time and volunteers for political office! The wise men of India suspect an ulterior motive. Extensive background checks by the SBI establish that this is indeed the real Monkey Cult, but no reason can be found for their unusual eagerness.

The first acts of the Cult do nothing to endear them to the populace, as unnecessary entertainers in the larger Indian cities are retrained as tax collectors.

Trade deals with the English are renegotiated at higher prices.

0) 1840AD Zulu and Americans make peace.

1) 1842AD Umtata falls to our glorious Indian tanks. New Punjab founded in unclaimed space.

2) 1844AD Mpondo captured. With the war nearly over, the Monkey Cult ponders it's next move. Our Palace moves to Kolhapur. Ummmm. Ooops? We discover the secret of flight (monkeys with wings?)

3) 1846AD Our tanks take Isandhlwana from under the noses of the German cavalry, and the Zulu nation is destroyed! Start airports in most of our core cities.

4) 1848AD New Dacca is built to take oil out of German territory. Noticing that we're at peace, the Monkey Cult institutes a revolution to take us back to democracy.

5) 1850AD Start palace in Bangalore as place-holder for UN.

6) 1852AD Persians have a settler going god-knows-where past Umtata. Oil near New Madras exhausted.

7) 1854AD Build a colony on the oil near Texcoco. English found Bristol on the promontory near Bapedi.

8) 1856AD English found Leicester down the coast from Bristol. England and America sign an MPP.

9) 1858AD Not much happens.

10) 1860AD First bombers roll off the production lines and onto our waiting carrier fleet :) The Monkey Cult retires from political office, taking the treasury slush fund to Mad Monkey City, on the coast between Bristol and Leicester. They mutter something about this being a good site from which to watch the launch. The wise men can only scratch their heads in confusion.

We have two transports with a settler and some troops on the way to the SW island, intending to claim the oil there.

New Dacca should rush-build it's airport when it becomes affordable.

The Monkey Cult votes for going for a spaceship win :)

:frog:

Got it. I've got Friendly Fire tonight (hint, hint, Charis), so it will probably be extremely late tonight.

--Cy

As their last act before leaving power, the Monkey party enacted a landmark legislative package. The groundbreaking law was called “An Initiative to Create a Public Works Bill to Ensure the Proper Distribution of Intelligence Per Job Required.” The press called it “Let an Idiot do an Idiot’s Job, and Free Up the Smart People for Real Work”. The Cheap Beer Party, capitalizing on this sentiment, ran under the slogan “When the Country Calls Out for an Idiot, Only a REAL Idiot Stands Forth.” So Cy_Ghandi was elected President of the overwhelming purple team.

A quick perusal of the map showed that, for a successful term, all Cy_Ghandi needed to do was hit the space bar for ten turns. He was well on his way to success, then he spilled a Cheap Beer on the keyboard. Still, he was proud to report, when not drug addled, that absolutely nothing happened in his term 8-0.

1862. Zzzzzz.

1864. In a mighty effort, the stupid Cy_Ghandi has a burst of productivity. He reviews all relations with other powers, and conducts business. His advisors being forewarned, all he is allowed to do is trade luxuries. This he does for a positive cash flow, and the people rejoiced (that he was not allowed to trade techs). In this year, his scientists discovered the fun of fission, and Cy_Ghandi observed that Blessed India was so full of Uranium (5), that the people would never need to buy night lights again. His advisors then came to Cy_Ghandi with the only vexing decision of his term—Great India had excess production to devote to the research of marvels, but they wanted to know—did we seek the secrets of the Atom in the Manhattan Project, of Diplomacy in the United Nations, or of Pure Research in the Seti Project? Unfortunately, Cy_Idiot was busy viewing his new Special Edition DVD of Monty Python and the Holy Grail, and swilling cheap beer, so his learned answer was “shhuurr, build ‘em all. Soundz great.”

In this way was Bangalore committed to build the United Nations, Delhi the Manhattan Project, and, our best research city, Madras, the Seti Program.

1866-1872. Shhhh the Idiot is sleeping.

1874. The Colony of Monkey Oil is founded. And there was much rejoicing 8-).

1876-1880. Zzzzzzz.

Notes: Seti and the UN will come in the next turn. Manhattan is dragging behind and will be done in 11 (lowest priority). We will hit rocketry in 8 turns. Current money is 2k gold, making almost 300 per turn. Military (significant units only 8-0) is 38 Infantry, 82 Mech Infantry, and 69 Tanks. I moved a few bombers to the far off colonies with resources (not that I think anyone is stupid enough to attack). I did not expand either militarily or via settlement because I smell an end game, and did not see the point. Our far-flung colonies should assure aluminum somewhere, and we can use our military to secure it. For one of my solo games, we are light in the mech infantry, but this game is not exactly crowded with civs to step up and challentge us anymore. That’s why I swapped all production over to Miss Cleo Tarot cards.

--Cy

ps—the Tarot cards being the last straw, the Cheap Beer Party is swept out of office

Got it.

-Skan

After the Cheap Beer Party leaves, no one takes over! The Hippo Party resolves to manipulate things from behind the scenes. Since no one cares, they start manipulating things from in front of the scenes. Then they start manipulating the scenes. And so on.

1882 - Two acronymically delicious wonders are completed, SETI and UN. A representative of the UN asks "Do you wish to throw away all your civilization's accomplishments up to this point on an all-or-nothing, do-or-die throw of the dice?" India politely declines.

1884-1900 - Zzzzz.

Definition of Zzzz. Renewed England's RoP for 10/t, rejected two stupid offers. Our oil colony ran dry, didn't bother connecting one of our new ones because we haven't got anything to do with Oil really until we get modern armor. So I slapped a bunch of cities on wealth, turned the science up, and whiled away the turns. We have Rocketry, and two sources of aluminum, three in five turns when some city's culture expands, and three or so more that are easy to take if we really need it. Halfhearted force shuffling and MMOW. Fiercest battles fought against pollution.

Welcome to late game tedium!

:sleep::sleep::sleep::sleep::sleep::sleep:

-Skan

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The REAL evidence of weed, strongest proof to date, however, was CharisGhandi sending all our "obsolete" elite cav into battle "in search of a great leader". My brother, you really ought to hit F3 now and then, and check to see if someone else has left you a great leader already. You can only have one, and sending the whole army searching the countryside for something sitting right under your nose is certainly not the kind of evidence you want turning up during an investigation into Puffing the Magic Dragon.

------------------------------------------------------------------------


Hey, i just wanted to say that it IS possible to have more than one leader at a time, i dunno where you are basing that game, in one of my games as the Chinese, i had 3 leaders operating at one point (and i foolishly made 3 armies)...

Do you have a screenshot, asaegyn?

I've seen multiple leaders produced on the same turn, but only after ones are used or killed. Once you form an army, you no longer have a leader: you have an army. If you use the leader to rush a project, you no longer have a leader, and can produce another.

There's only one box on the F3 screen, showing whether or not you currently have a leader. I have won dozens upon dozens of great leaders in combat, and never once seen one appear when I already had one sitting around. The only thing that might convince me I'm mistaken would be a screenshot showing two leaders (they'd have to be unstacked, or other units would hide them) on screen at the same time.


- Sirian

Life was good for the prosperous nation of India. They had luxuries and power,
and yet... they were bored. The nation slid downhill when they started to smoke
the "pungent weed", history repeated itself yet again. And so did come to power
the sons of CharisGandhi one LAST time...

1900 AD (0) - Wow! Are we rich or what?! Monkey oil gets rushed a temple, to
be followed by rush of Barracks and Airport. :P CG the Seventh is sad
to see that the histograph of recent history has utterly flattened out. Yet he knows
the truth is that we are strong, and in need of the pungent weed!

MAKE LOVE NOT WAR!! In a move that can only be described as rash, with one turn left
to go, CharisGandhi HALTS production of the Manhattan project, citing that he will
not be responsible for bringing nuclear terror to the planet. Instead he has visions
of a great Space mission... he immediately puts the best production workers on vacation
and supplies them with free weed! He puts Kohlapur on the Manhattan as a placeholder
for a spaceship module.

1902 AD (1) - MMOW, Pollution cleanup, and some SAM batteries in our 'core' home towns.
I don't like this pop-up dialog box for UN vote. If we accidently hit yes we could
lose instantly. "NO!"

1904 AD (2) - The economy seems to stumble as the research budget goes to 100% of GDP!
When questioned on this, CharisGandhi chants "Apol-LO!" "Apol-LO!" His closest
friends are confused, and sigh, "Weed..."

1906 AD (3) - "Gandhiji... What are you doing with our ships?" "Maginot" "Huh?"
Gandhi claims that the weed-smoking sailors are enthralled by the coral reef
patterns. The line up for miles and miles just to see them. It is hoped that
by accident no blockade or anything of that sort if formed by this harmless action.

1908 AD (4) - More preoccupation with wealth, as the country becomes less and less
productive.

1910 AD (5) - deh hol. Placeholders for spaceship parts set in the wealth cities
of Bombay and Madras. (Chitagong gets a longer term placeholder, and Bangalore,
Ganges and Calcutta request the honor of making a module.)

1912 AD (6) - In between turns the citizens of San Francisco YEARNED for the pungent
weed and overthrew their Persian aggressors! We set up shop and started sedating
the masses! With it comes a supply of coal.

Apollo!!! "Sir, won't the other nations get jealous??" "How is that possible? It
is purely a scientific mission?? Do it!" "Sir, you'll waste 476 shields!" "DO IT!"

1914 AD (7) - Delhi finished Apollo, put on Solar for placeholder. Calcutta uses Manhattan.
A new source of oil! Just outside of Bengal :) When things are good, things are good!

1916 AD (8) - Madras completes the first part of our ship, the docking bay :)
Pollution is popping up so fast, some turns we can't even keep up, despite, dozens
of workers in the fields. (Perhaps they smoke too much weed?!)

1918 AD (9) - ACK!!!! "Terrible news! The people of Pungent Weed have deposed our
governor and pledged allegiance to the traitorous Persians!!" (Two infantry there?)

Another scandal for the government of CharisGandhi the Seventh. Disgrace to their
very special home city. The people are in an outroar, there are demands for a
new government. There are demands for a UN vote. Both are told 'no'.

Pollution in Bangalore, Lahore, Chartres. Yup, we're falling behind.

1920 AD (10) - One last celebration of "We love the Mahtama Charisji" day. The
scandal is just tearing the country apart, and he chooses to step down. Before
doing so, he finishes Synthetic Fibers (allowing ) and starts looking into
Superconductors. Indepdendent auditors SHRIEK at the country's coffers, now sitting
at just over 1000 instead of 4000, to which he can only reply "Insurmountable tech
lead!". As he is ousted, the new science research is cut way back...

No pollution whatsoever this turn. It is theorized that the pollution was ACTUALLY
clouds of pungent weed affecting citizens of all cities. The weed is again
outlawed, and pollution drops drastically!

SS Cockpit will finish next turn in Bombay, SS Engine in Kohlapur in one turn also.
Delhi switched to the SS Storage, due in 2 turns. Calcutta cuts over to the SS Stasis
Chamber, due in 5 turns. Madras is on the exterior casing, due in 9 turns.

That will leave only Fuel Cells and Life Support when we get Semiconductors, and
Thrusters at Satellites, and the Pungent Weed Lounge when Lasers are mastered.
(Bangalore just started the Palace, and Ganges the Manhattan project, as holders)

America still needs Corporation and Electronics, the Persians are grappling with
Scientific Method, the English can't comprehend atomic theory and look forward to
someday learning Flight, and the Germans also don't even know what Uranium is yet.

Thus does the reign of CharisGandhi end in scandal (although some would say, in success) He will almost surely never rise to power again, but if he did... he would "liberate" the beloved city of "Pungent Weed" :goodjob: (come on baby, flip back!)

General Serpent-Yan proudly cast his hat into the ring and ran for election in 1920AD. His platform: "Give me ten years, and I will conquer England! Give me twenty, and I will conquer Germany! It is time for India to take her rightful place in this world!"

Yan was defeated in the general election by a fellow calling himself "Bus Stop Bill", by a margin of 6%. Apparently, India had had enough of the Yan way of doing things.

And so pretty much not much of anything happened. Bill kept his campaign promises, to introduce the radical new concept of "public transportation", touting a vehicle called a "bus" which could carry a couple of dozen people at one time... and well, really, the rest of the details are so boring, nobody bothered to understand enough to know whether or not Bill had a clue.

And yet it has been noted that since buses went into service all over India, there HAS been a reduction in smog. Some were even so bold as to suggest that CharisGhandi was SO FOND of smoke of any kind, that it was his family's opposition to public transport that kept it from happening for decades on end, choking our skies with too much auto exhaust. The Charis line is now being sued in a class action lawsuit by 18 million Indian citizens for the sum of $132,490,222,541,000,000,000,000. They are not expected ever to recover, if found guilty, and may never come to power again.

In other developments, a mysterious cult hideout in the mountains has somehow bloomed into a major city, guarded dilligently by legions of longbowmen, and a center of international cultism and partying. It has become THE trendy spot for rich vacationers, and nobody seems to know where this came from or what the heck is going on up there. "The Banana Storage Facility" is a definite location of much merrymaking, with allegations of orgies and a whole lot of "bananas" "going into storage", whatever that means.

The leader of the Monkey Cult is being hauled before the Senate to supply an explanation.

Also, why are there now three banana processing and shipment facilities on the southern continent? Why are they constructing frigates, while whole truckloads of bananas rot on the dockside and our transport fleet sits in mothballs on the mainland? The Monkey Cult has a lot of explaining to do!


- Sirian

:crazyeyes :crazyeyes :crazyeyes :crazyeyes :crazyeyes

I didn't know that once a leader forms an army they are no longer considered a leader..
in that case what you have said very well makes sense and is probably true.

July 7th 1954.

Dear International Celebrity,

The Monkey Cult cordially invites you to the party of the millenium at the new Cathedral of the Golden Tamarin at their secret cult hideaway. We promise you a night of wild celebration, free food, much pungent weed and banana daiquiris, and a firework display you will never forget.

In light of the worsening international situation, firearms will not be permitted within the Cathedral grounds. Usual parking rules apply.

The Monkey Cult regrets we will not be able to attend the party ourselves. Secret cult business requires our attendance at an alternative location.

Sincerely,

The Cult

Outstanding!

Monday Morning quarterback time. My perceptions of the keys to this slam dunk are (in chronological order):

Sirian. Great setup and early planning.

Charis: Doing the early land grab.

Hocus and Jaffa: Fending off the Persian assaults and beating them down to where I had a neutral situation where I could grab the tactical initiative.

Skan: Continuing the initiative and cutting deep into Persia.

This was probably enough for the easy win, but Charis and Sirian get bonus points for finishing the deal with the Persians and for waxing the Zulus.

Just outstanding.

Time for Emperor diff and/or variants 8-).

--Cy

Woot! Excellent job folks! :) :goodjob:

Jaffa, that last turn for the foes was great, lots of puny little
fighting with hopelessly outdated units. I particularly like seeing the two English Frigates sunk, and the immortal in battle.

Cy, I fully agree with your assessment, but you forgot one slam dunk...

Your "fingering" the Persians with Indus, Ganges and Dacca.

Looking at the replay reminded me how much that helped. It checked their advance, took a TON of pressure off Bombay and Bangalore, and... allowed the blitz. Having those 'fingers' SO deep into enemy territory allowed us to take them out before they knew what hit them. (Ok, so they didn't apply the 'cultural pressure' we intended ;p)

The 'replay' was really neat to watch, and a few things stuck out. Our early expansion really was VERY different from other countries, and yes, it meant big trouble for France and a good setup for us. The aggressiveness of the Persians was also something to watch, as was the speed we rolled through them and the Zulus in our monster campaigns.

Charis

(CharisGandhi is in exile, and remains in tears on hearing that the great city of "Pungent Weed" was never liberated! Not only that, the weed seemed to spread to New Karachi in 1951)