There's been some requests on what diplo is like in a PBEM. Here are a few requirements first. If you want to participate in diplo you will need "instant messenger". The dialogue is much faster than PM or email. It would be nice if we had people on both continents with access so there's always an open line of communication.

http://messenger.msn.com/Xp/Default.aspx

Here's what I've learned and read about human vs human diplo...

The best arrangement is generally first contact. There is an enormous advantage to team's that have long-term agreements of sharing. This means the agreement lasts till those two civs are the only two standing or, for instance, this may come to a climax on who builds Hoover's.
These could be the things the two teams would agree to.
1. Techs
2. excess luxs
3. excess resources
4. MPP
5 Coordinated attacks
6. The agreement could only terminate if one team notifies the other, say 10-20 turns in advance.
7. Shared contacts and maps
8. Shared acquired research from other teams.
9. Feign deceit. If these teams meet others then they should keep the other teams in the dark regarding this agreement. Something like so and so has been heavy handed etc.
10. Agreememts on land rights

MIA and Doughnuts would be the preferred teams for this type of agreement. Doughnuts are a team to be reckoned without question.

A second would be TNT. They have alienated themselves in this game already. A deal with them may extend only till both teams have become a republic. My fear with extending a long-term agreement with TNT is they will unquestionably be everyone's #1 target so we would want to delicately shorten the length of any agreement.

There is almost no case where an early war will benefit anyone. If you get gassed early I see no winner in that situation. However, if there may be situations where forceful diplomacy is required. IE they have nothing to offer and how would they step up for mutual benefit. This may require giving two techs for one to even things out.

There's always the potential for deceit and even the best partner can potentially backtstab. So leaving empty cities next to partners is always a bad plan. My hope is this team will honor all agreements and never condone such behavior.

There are endless numbers of ways to structure a deal and all decisions will be decided as a group when it comes time to formalize an agreement. Another benefit of instant messenger is the whole conversation can be posted in a thread.

Discuss....

i have MSN online at home and work.
adress is troykil <at> yahoo <dadot> com

well i agree with most of your point whomp, but...
this is Real-Politik in the flesh.
we should become macheavellian in the extreme.

trust NOONE.
do it onto them before they do it onto us.
always assume they are double dealing, so even with best buds, we should prebuild Hoover's for a steal. as i believe they would be doing the same.
ok - you now get my basic philosophy.

now counter pointing it.
we should get one strong ally and embrace them closely (as in "keep your friends close, your enemies closer" type arrangment)
the doughnuts would indeed be my choice, but allying with the ranter, while holding secret relations with the others would indeed be better.
just think of a coordinated 3 pronged attack :devil:

more thoughts evolving as i type....

I think that a lot of the alliance dealing will depend on who is on our continent. I'd rather not make long term deals with our neighbor, more like a short term anti-attack tech trading agreement.

With this philosophy TNT will be on our hit-list no matter where they are. Also we could get an ally on the other continent helping each other out via tech & resource trading while trying to remain rulers on our continent. This will probably be my last post in this thread since I'm no good with words. (But I seem to vomit them all over the place anyway ;) )

I agree we should not trust anyone 100%.

There was a great game at CDZ (Fab four?) where two players(banzai and grs) had an long term beneficial agreement and both went on the attack vs. a stronger single player (romeo) who was destroyed but in the process. But then Banzai backstabbed grs by walking into 10 empty cities on his way to his capital. Banzai was buliding barricades on his borders so Banzai felt grs should've known.

Barbu could probably tell some stories too.

I'm in belgium, on the old continent. I've got msn meesenger, and im online quite often.

Address: naglikt@hotmail.com

I'm for a very close alliance with our neighbour
As I stated in another thread.
I support, however, the idea: if you want peace, prepare for war.
So we should pretend that we're weak,
But always have a counter-attack force ready to break.

Right now it's quite hard to talk about plans since we dont really have a military, nor the borders aren't stable yet.
We'll talk about Real-Politik in 100turns time I suppose. :goodjob: Can't wait!


What do you guys think about secret negotiations,
So called under the table, which were so popular during history.
This could lead to unofficial treaties, or plans
Which could come out crtical in some time.


Well, looking on all this, we will become indeed macheavellians of civ 3 :P


cheers

Tomasz

Actually, I think there's definitely an argument for "helping out" TNT. They've probably already realized they're at the top of all the other teams' hitlists. If we offer them protection (or at least say we offer them protection), they will probably be willing to offer us lots of goodies in return. :mischief:

Actually, I think there's definitely an argument for "helping out" TNT. They've probably already realized they're at the top of all the other teams' hitlists. If we offer them protection (or at least say we offer them protection), they will probably be willing to offer us lots of goodies in return. :mischief:
So true young Pliskenator of the Maine Idiot Civants.
I'd say that falls in the category of forceful diplomacy.

Actually, I think there's definitely an argument for "helping out" TNT. They've probably already realized they're at the top of all the other teams' hitlists. If we offer them protection (or at least say we offer them protection), they will probably be willing to offer us lots of goodies in return. :mischief:
you'll earn your academy stripes yet...

another thought.
if we do meet them on our landmass, how about we plant a sleeper in metropolis?
a volunteer could become a so called "dissatisfied" member feeding them some false info (some being true, so he gains some credit), getting them to believe that since we know they're on the hitlists, and us with the lowest score (eg - weakest?) might become buddies.
they'll expect a backstab sooner or later, but if we time it right....

Not sure what you propose SW but sleepers are :nono:

0.4.2 - Intentional Espionage

Description: Any out-of-game espionage in any form is strictly prohibited.

Definition: Trying to hack the secure team forum(s), continuously logging team chat channels, inserting moles in an opponent's team, hacking screenshots or save game upload location, or any other action considered espionage as determined by the game staff

Verdict: Doing any of the above as determined by the game staff is a violation of this rule.

Punishment Level: Red (Ejection)

i dont really know what im suggesting, more like one of us getting on a friendlier basis with those guys on the forum.
it might help out in a tight spot.

certainly nothing illegal ;)
see, i've got 27 arrests and NO convictions. which proves im innocent :D

:bounce: TNT and D'nuts are on same continent :bounce:
How sweet if they could start whacking each other and lag in research. A dream scenario is a peaceful cont., us and MIA, helping each other out and advancing in tech, and a war zone continent pillaged and tormented by bad blood. Maybe we should suggest Greece to support one side each and thereby help out in thrashing the land? If that be the case we would agree only to aid with troops not specifically GS's. If we can keep them from fighting until we're out of desp that would be good.

Edit: After reading the rule set I understood it as every kind of deal that doesn't forego the in-game techs reqired is allowed. That would rule out changing maps, signing MA's/MPP's. Otherwise it's all GO. I would be interested in asking Greeks if they're at all interested in signing a peace and research deal. Whaddya say fellow Celts?

they are on the same continent? groovy.
are we SURE they are not on ours?

otherwise a peace research deal seems very lucrative.

when did we get to know they are on that same continent? or did i again miss that first contact moment.

Nikodemus just made contact

Do we know for certain that all 4 teams weren't placed on the same continent? Wouldn't it be a joke on us if that were the case?!?!? :lol:

From RikMeleet's post here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=2987085&postcount=11), the map is continents. However, the rest is customized.

So theoretically it's possible that we're all on one continent and the other is just left to the barbs. :p

Well, I believe one thing agreed on by all teams was that we wanted two continents with two civs on each one. I suppose Rik could have decided to trick us, but I doubt it.

I like the sound of the peace and research deal. We won't be able to do much to them until the MA anyway with their Hoplites. I just hope this doesn't make our Gallics worthless. :(

If I understand rightly we met the Greeks down south. Peace is the only thing that makes sense; that jungle and the fact that we only have three cities makes war an impractical. Remember, GS costs twice as much as their hopolites - we had better try to play nice for now.

Should we just send a generic message? Something along the lines of "Hail Greek neigbors." Or should we send something vaguely threatening like "Pleased to meet you. We hope you enjoy your stay as guests on our continent."

While tounge is half-way in cheeck, perhaps just a general message is best - it puts the ball in their court, when we meet if THEY are the ones making the proposal we can buy time and consider. Who knows, maybe we can get them to show a few cards before we decide on a bet...

I would like to send a message to them that we need to schedule a time for IM discussion. Does this work for everyone? Then we can take the next step.

how about we send them something along these lines?
just a friendly :wavey: from the freedom kissers. hope youre enjoying the southern island resorts this beutiful summer. would very much like to meet you, but im a bit shy. how about we chat a bit before we get the :beer: flowing. we ladies cant really handle our liquer, so we dont want any accidents happening do we?
it will confuse them a bit, while telling them we want to talk.
getting a good giggle out of them is also, i believe, a good idea.

It works.

Since I've never done this I want to see if I understand the situation rightly...

We have not gold
We can't trade maps or lux at this point
The only thing we have to trade are techs
The other thing we could do is agree to peace, right of passage, etc.

Am I missing something? This meeting is probably more for tone and to determine future working relationship - right?

Are we willing to trade any techs? Which ones? I have to think...

How about this...
Hello MIA,
We are the simple people from Simpleton. Hope youre enjoying the southern island resorts this beutiful summer. would very much like to meet you. How about we chat a bit before we get the :beer: flowing. We would like to schedule a meeting at your earliest convenience by IM. Let us know if this is possible.

Kisses,
Team K.I.S.S

There will be no discussing anything specific until we get on IM. They don't know what we have and we don't know what they have. For all they know we have 300g and 5 techs. It's more you show mine and you show yours type thing.

OK I am sending that message now to ybbor and classical hero. I will give you 10 minutes to respond if you disagree with these comment. Time to get some cafe ole'!!

The other thing we could do is agree to peace, right of passage, etc.

Are we willing to trade any techs? Which ones? I have to think...
I don't believe we can make RoPs yet. They don't come until Embassies in the epic game.

I think we're going to try to make them show us a few techs they have before revealing what we have. Try to, anyway.

ROP's are not required with an embassy. We can discuss any type of passage agreement we want. 50 turns 1 explorer, 30 turns but 5 tiles from capital...whatever we agree to.

Oh, alright.

Hmm, how far away is their warrior from our land? If we were to make the RoP so that it expired as soon as they got to our land, that would work out well for us (since I assume we're closer to them than they are to us).

What we do know is we're ahead techwise. We're "technologically advanced" and are 3 up on them. I guess they've gone alpha->writing which is closed to us.
A general invitation to negotiations seems appropriate. From there on I would prefer we call the shots rather than responding to their proposals.

I don't think we need to offer a ROP at this point. We are a bigger threat to them then they to us. The critical discussions will how we can work together for mutual benefitand if I have anything to do with it how to wipe TNT off the planet.
Daghie we don't know any of that. We will know once we establish contact. There is no info given in a PBEM what the other side has unlike a SP game.

Ok I am sending NOW. Weewho!

Daghie we don't know any of that. We will know once we establish contact You're absolutely right Mon Capitän. Should've phrased it "we can assume we're..." because that's what I did ;) .
Edit: I don't have messenger but could prolly fix that. I would like to have my fingers in this cookie jar.

Hmm.. we can't offer them BW through diplomacy, so doesn't that reveal that they already have it (which they of course do since they started with it)? And further that they don't have any of the techs we CAN offer? Of course we couldn't know if they have Wheel or Masonry for example.

There is no info given in a PBEM what the other side has unlike a SP game.Really? Oh, then we'll just have to ask them. :(

I don't think they'd give Alpha+Writing for IW+Pottery (which they may have already discovered).

I have forwarded an official email to MIA. Classical has responded by PM so they are aware of our contact. We need to watch the gmail account for further discussions.

Any discussion are preliminary and will be brought back to each team for further approval. Start thinking of what we want out of our relationship before we establish this meeting.

Really? Oh, then we'll just have to ask them. :(

I don't think they'd give Alpha+Writing for IW+Pottery (which they may have already discovered).
We don't know whether they gone writing. We know nothing about them until we discuss things. There are many things that can be negotiated in good faith in tech trades. To me alpha is not as important as pottery. It is mighty difficult to get population = power without it. Be patient and let's see how things develop on IM.

We need our candidates for the IM conference call. Does anyone know how many can be on at the same time?

How do you figure the "meeting" will be organized? I'd like one of us, Whompie, to deal with the contact and while doing so getting immediate feedback from others. We should avoid being many Celts at the table, but have many of us backing him/her up.

Edit: Agree on Pot being better than Alpha in this game. They should be very anxious to get it when they see us expand with that settler factory.

MSN chat I've had as many as 15 participants :D

Let me know if it's MSN or Yahoo as I have both.

I can invite you guys into a conversation if I have all of your email addies.

If it's not one of these let me know as well as I'd like to lurk the conversation.

Whomever starts it make sure that the conversation is logged so it can be posted here for discussion.

And it begins.
Greetings From Greece and MIA! At Present we do not know of where our paths have crossed, but when we do, we will prepare a feast in your team Honor, and welcome you into our homes. I'm looking forward to a great game of working side by side together.

In the future, I request that correspondence be directed to our foreign minister, fe3333au, whom I am sure is just as glad to hear of this joyous news as I am.

Thank you, and long Live KISS! Long Live MIA! Long live our friendship!

LOL! Are they sucking up already? :goodjob:

Butt Kisser!

Sounds like they want no troubles from us!

I think we need to send one or two representatives. Max - no more than three. Sort of like when Jefferson, Franklin and Adams went to negotiate with England for peace in 1781. Hopefully someone who is experienced with these negotiations. We don't all need to go. We need to trust their judgment and give them full power to act on our behalf. This will speed things up and present a united front to the other team.

I think Whomp should definitely be one of the negotiators. I'm not sure who else. I know I don't have any experience in these things, so I shouldn't go.

This is indeed good to hear and not too suprisingly. As far as mutual benefits of a peace/tech deal goes: Greece have strenght in research being commercial and scientific. We should get some of that from them. We're strong in expanding and will cover more luxes/rescources, let them benefit from that.
I suggest we keep to Dagh's 4F of negotiating:
Firm, Friendly, Fruitful and Fun ;-)

im in :love: with them already.
let the good times roll.

my guess is they need us bad at this stage - pots - seems like the ticket.
and if they start out this friendly...
just thinking of the possibilities makes my head swim.

lets just not forget that they WILL turn on us, lets keep it to our best advantage.

i've got MSN (addie is troykil at the Yahoo of COM)

i'd prefer a first meeting to get to know each other then a 24hour delay so each team can ponder and then meet again to deal.
we should also keep whomp as our rep to that team, so as to minimize misunderstandings.

If he would accept the honor, I think we should send our distinguished monk, Brother Bede, on the negotiating team. Sort of like when the Americans sent Franklin to Paris for the Peace negotiations. His reputation is impecable throughout CFC. I think his knowledge of people and the game will serve us well.

I second the nomination of Brother Bede!

That is if I get a vote :hmm:

my nominations are whomp, bede and tubby.
whomp is the first contactee, bede the honourable monk, and tubby has proven his number crunching skills.
i would defer to them all power, realising my skill here would be very limited.

or i could go in as Jive Talker, talking mumbo jumbo nobody really understands but thinks they do. sow a little confusion on the board. ;)

Of course you get a vote Mistfit. This is anarchy! :D

If he would accept the honor, I think we should send our distinguished monk, Brother Bede, on the negotiating team. Sort of like when the Americans sent Franklin to Paris for the Peace negotiations. His reputation is impecable throughout CFC. I think his knowledge of people and the game will serve us well. I agree only we can get the old scuffer online. An alternative would be to send someone "unknown" but to let Bede and team whisper in his/her ear. That might lead the Greeks to think they're "up" at the table. Playing a wee bit whimsy may be a way to lower their guard. Just a thought...

Does Tubby have negotiating experience? That will be important. We want someone who has done some negotiating in Real Life. Union negotiators, corporate salesmen, government diplomats. Anyone meet those criteria?

OK, some one who drives a really hard bargin when they are buying a car.

Whomp is our diplomat, Bede is our knowledgable sage, we need that hard driving negotiator for our third member.

I am not a good negotiator but have talked down a car dealer over 3 days before.

regretfully I don't have any IM programs. I guess that I can get one at home but it's a no-go at work. So we have til Monday evening to set it up if I'm going to be a part of it. (which I'm a little skeered)

Thanks everyone for your confidence and I do negotiate in my position quite a bit. Sales dude. I get to use big words like Why, who, where, when, what, how, if....and powerful words like...hmm, I see and really

I just got instant messenger and would like to test it out. SW is the only address I have right now and he's offline. Dude, we need to talk!! Mistfit? Where are you, brah?

I'm at bawhompATyahooDOTcom

Tubs you will need it for our pbem at CDZ. I will also not be able to use instant manager at work so most of my instanting will be from home.

As long as we can make them believe they're up on the deal, it doesn't take that much of a hard bargin. RL dealing involve a lot of handling emotions, in here that's not too big a deal methinks. more important is to figure out the numbers and trade patterns available, so not to worry Tubs.

Edit: OK, so I have a party (in RL) to attend. Will be back for an update in, say, 5-6 hrs. Expect me to be creative and unintelligble :beer:

You guys are all very eloquent, I am fine with any team of negotiators you can get together. But don't forget to let us vote about the deals ;)

Everything will be conditioned on team approval. Ummm..talking to SW and Mistfit right now for anyone who'd like to sign in.

I'm downloading MSN right now via dialup :( . Is that what you guys are using? my address is casey.venters AT hotmail DOT com

I'm all for not even voting on it. What are the odds that our team will come back with a deal we don't like?

I think we vote to give all power to our negotiating team. We trust them. We trust their judgment. And we trust their abilities.

I think that will give them a step up at the negotiating table. And enable them to get a better deal. If the other team knows they are talking with the decision makers, they will probably negotiate in better faith with us.

true, true. Just don't screw it up guys. If you're leary about a deal, come back & discuss, but as far as I'm concerned you guys know enough about the game to not hose us too bad ;) .

good idea Bugsy.

i agree with bugs.
if the others start causing trouble,, or offering poor trades, the "REPS" can come back for a vote or discussion.
just remember what happened at the ALAMO... ;)

They won't screw it up. We'll send a solid team we'll be able to trust completely.

They won't screw it up. We'll send a solid team we'll be able to trust completely.
Reason #1 why you are not sending me :p

I will pm Kentharu
Greetings and Well Met honoured Whomp

Weather here is as close to perfect as a mortal can wish for ...

We are indeed looking forward to breaking bread and sipping sweet beverage with you ... the citizens of MIA are a curious people and will enjoy hearing your tales around the speaking fire ... If you talk straight and true then both our peoples will co-exist in peace ...

We have assigned Kentharu to liase between our peoples ...

Peace to you are yours

Feaurius III
Foreign Minister MIA

Are they doing some kind of role playing? Some seriously flowery language.

BTW - Don't trust any beverage that doesn't contain hops. :beer: I think the Admiral will back me up on that.

Greetings to you great Whomp

Indeed the weather is spectacular in these parts and i am glad it is so with you

A meeting is need as you said if you have messenger please add me so that we may discuss urgent matters. I am indeed the liason between our to people and i hope that our nations may both prosper for the years to come.

I to look forward to our meeting and hope it will be soon.

Kentharu
Ambassador

I have forwarded him my IM address.

Reason #1 why you are not sending me Right, that "greed is good" motto could create so so-vibes :D

Edit: FYI Kentharu was born 14 sep -89. We should congrt him on his 16th bday. He seems to heavily involved in the never ending story-thing which I don't get at all :crazyeye: . Anyway, somewhat of a distracted character by the looks of his posting:
yup to the Bharut but i think i pmed that to you (my memory it not so good)
forgot to ask this in my pm but who is the green guys above me (i forgot again sorry)
Don't know why he's/she's been elected to negotiate but seems to enjoy making up stories/roleplaying.

S'right.

MSN address: djoc51@msn.com

Interesting times, gentlemen.

I think it was Mr Franklin who once said "If we don't hang together we will all hang separately". In that spirit I propose granting the negotiating team the power to determine terms but that the Senate and People of KISS still consent to, but not advise on, whatever has been negotiated. If that means posting a poll, so be it.

Some thoughts:
If we sign a peace/research-deal with greece lasting throughout the AA, knowing they will want to whack us sooner or later, question is "how do we ditch them without getting the remaining teams on our backs?" When they notice we are hi-jacking our continent, they (iros and persians) will be anxious to stop us. Here the bad blood btw nuts and tnt may come in handy.
Hopefully a fight btween them will break out in AA. If not, so be it. Before attacking greece, backstabbing them, we can notice D'nuts and agree upon :hammer: TNT as soon as we're "ready" with MIA. We will also propose dnut's "let's have one continent each" and do a space race". That to avoid them being too anxious about us going for a dom win. We will by then be in a position to win either way even if do let them have "their" continent (for a while). TNT will make an issue of our deal breaking with Greece, but I don't think D'nuts will have anything to do with them.
Lots of speculation, lots of fun!

:goodjob: I agree that this might be the best scenario barring all other teams quitting now ;)

There are some pros and cons to a long term peace deal. I guess we need to go on the assumption that they are far enough away from us that we couldn't effectively execute even a limited war with Greece. If we go on that assumption, a peace treaty to last the AA is OK.

There are a lot of factors to consider in a research deal. Who does what, at what rate, which techs are traded for what. I have to say it is a bit foreign to me.

There are some pros and cons to a long term peace deal. I guess we need to go on the assumption that they are far enough away from us that we couldn't effectively execute even a limited war with Greece. If we go on that assumption, a peace treaty to last the AA is OK.

There are a lot of factors to consider in a research deal. Who does what, at what rate, which techs are traded for what. I have to say it is a bit foreign to me. The way I see it, we will prepare for (and initiate) 3 major battles. The first with MIA in late AA to clear continent, the second joining D'nuts in whacking TNT and the third being a last man standing with the Nutters. There will be plenty of bloodshed if things work out :D .

Edit: I guess that's the time when we quote Elvis Costello: "Doomsday (the bugs are taking over)"
Edit2: Don't know why he's/she's been elected to negotiate but seems to enjoy making up stories/roleplaying. I'm thinking we should participate in this role palying if he likes it. That will put him in a good mood. Being too "dry" might put him off and we want him smiling, talkative and generous, right?
I realize quoting a previous post by myself in the edit of the last post in thread is a sign saying "Could you please cool it" :D

I don't konw that a battle between the continents is a foregone conclusion.

The way I see it, we are a bigger threat to the Greeks than they are to us, but they are a bigger benefit to us than we are to them.

The defense is going to be stout in the AA, so a long war is a diversion of resources away from expansion/infestructure.

Also, our Religous/Agricultural traits can't help them (aside from trading pottery, for which I think we should extract a hefty price), but their Science/Commercial could be an ongoing benefit to us in tech and gold.

I think the Iroqouis might want help against the Provo/Persians's Immortal. A threeway alliance earlier rather than later, and a race to divide up the second continent between us and the Greeks may come about.

In that race I think we win becuase of our Agriculture. Throw up some cheap Temples and our culture will start grabbing territory.

Just thinking about the future...

If we help d'nuts kill off TNT, they'll have the upper hand with a whole continent to themselves

Does anyone think it possible that TNT is planning to play a sort of AW Defiant game? The attitude coming from them makes that sound like a possibility. What effect, if any, would that have on our diplomacy?

Maybe we (KISS & MIA) could work out something where we'd help D'Nuts dogpile TNT in exchange for toeholds on the other continent. That would seem to help out D'Nuts without giving them too large an advantage in having the continent to themselves.

If we help d'nuts kill off TNT, they'll have the upper hand with a whole continent to themselves That's why I think we should finish MIA first, then help Nuts with Presia.

I will play devil's advocate here. My .02 on why a long-term arrangement with MIA works.
--My assumption is we will control 60% of our continent. If we split 50% of the other continent we now are at 55% to the dom limit.
--The obvious which is shared resources and luxs that once hooked up by roads will be difficult to disconnect. This may not be the case till late MA with the other continent.
--More importantly, we don't have to watch every coastal approach to our island. Much more difficult to defend 60% of an island than 100%. They protect theirs, we protect ours.
--Joint military operations. They can attack from one end and we attack from the other.
--The obvious shared tech research and they get cheap libs and unis. They get free techs in the new age.
--The continent will be fully developed with their help by the time the other continent has been taken.
--No fast units. They may not be able to take cities on the other continent as quickly as us.
--War settlers. There is, without a shadow of a doubt in my mind, no question our early settler factory will pay enormous dividends. While other teams are cranking out of their capital, we have already moved settler production to city 5 or 6. No one can crank war settlers like us. If they do it's at the expense of military. Not the case for us.
--Striking a deal to eliminate TNT will not be difficult. Enough said.
--The largest threat in this game is Doughnut. Good players, great traits and UU. They need to be handled before a civ whose best unit is defensive.

My thoughts are to agree once the other continent is finished then we can go mano a mano.

We should definately make an agreement with MIA. They're scientific, so we could have a pet civ. :)

But, shouldn't we try to dogpile D'nuts? They might be the strongest team, but they can't hold 3 fronts. :confused:. TNT follows next, and we're on our way to Domination.

I see Doughnuts as the strongest team. Players and otherwise. They must go.

My message to MIA...

Ambassador Kentharu,

Our people have been given one day of rest tomorrow, a holiday, for their great labor. Many of our tenacious people will be back to work mining and irrigating Tuesday. If we are unable to schedule an IM meeting by that time, it could make it more difficult to coordinate a time for our people to converse.

If the concern is how we met -we will gladly explain how at this meeting.

Please respond to our request at your earliest conveniece.

Yours in gratitude,

Major Idiot Whomp of K.I.S.S.

Poor our people, they only have one day off in the whole 6050 years ;)

Whomp's analysis is sound. Our traits and the Greek traits are complementary. They have a strong AA to mid MA UU as do we, but theirs is defensive while ours is offensive and fast moving. The other two nations (Persia and Iro) also have complementary traits. The most natural thing in the world is for the two on each continent to combine to control the other continent.

Here is where it gets interesting though, as the Shahanshah has succeeded in already alienating his natural ally. That provides an opening for us and the Greeks to exploit.

So now the question becomes what can we do to channel the antipathy towards the Persians?

A little cautious word on the bickering btw TNT and D'nuts. Dave and Provo are playing demo together elsewhere. I do think they're a bit pi55ed at each other, but facing the fact that they share the same continent could drive them to kiss and make up and we all know how strong feelings of unity can rise out of an ended fight. We should not rely 100% on them to not cooperate but follow a path that would stand that possibility. I think Whompsies analys is sound but a war btw TNT and Nuts are of most importance and not wholly under our control. The other proposed option, to eliminate MIA before going after TNT-->Nuts would also benefit from this assumed animosity on other continent but may not be all that relying on it, not sure here :hmm:. Could we have an estimated time schedule for Whomp's scenario? Would our UU come into play when effective? Do we care about the triggering of our GA?
Either way a long term peace deal with MIA is prefered. Nice PM Whomps :thumbsup:.
Btw, Nuts are late with sending save. Waiing for the SANTIONS-cry ;) .

Waiing for the SANTIONS-cry ;) .

Always eager to please...

SANTIONS! :aargh: SANTIONS!! [pissed]

And Whomp beat me to the punch (I love finding something everything thinks is brilliant and say "I was thinking the same thing...").

I think that if the pleasant tone holds, it is a better use of resources to make nice with a complimentary Greek and foment mischief on the other continent.

We would have to be careful of leaving D'nuts all alone on their land mass. I would plan on filling boats with nice settlers to plant vacation communities on sunny/senic/rugged/exciting Continent X.

Can we re-name GS to 'Travel Agents'? :ninja:

Can we re-name GS to 'Travel Agents'? :ninja:
i think what we'll get in return is:
SANTIONS! :aargh: SANTIONS!! [pissed]
so... why not? as long as each gets a certified licence number....

The keys to any successful military operation are accurate intelligence, and well thought out plans (I wish the Bush administration knew this.) You need the first before you can do the second. We need to start preparing for war, but we can't do a thing without some intel on our opponent.

I think by the time we can execute a war, both UUs will be obsolete.

I posted my IM conversation with Kentharu on a new thread. Go check it out.

We are attempting to meet at 10:30 am EST (2:30 pm GMT, right?). Fe333au and Kentharu will be present (we hope).

will make an ernest effort to be there.
i am online now, but am at work, so i might not be able to reply instantly (moving around alot)

If possible, I'd love to show up (assuming having a room full of anarchists isn't counterproductive). My presence would be more personally amussing than broadly helpful.

At any rate, I am downlaoding MSM on my other computer as we speak (at a blazing 3.2 KB per second - Yeah, Baby!)

I think by the time we can execute a war, both UUs will be obsolete. One reason why I'm a bit curious about the schedule on Whomp's mano mano celt greek outduking scenario. We can of course save a travel agent to trigger a GA later in the game...

We can of course save a travel agent to trigger a GA later in the game... We better save several just in case our first one doesn't make the kill.

You're right but then again having a lot of 'em makes you triggerhappy :D. As Bede said elswhere "Friends 4ever or until 40 GS*s is on your border".

For my side, I think cooperation is in order right now. We HAVE to grow faster than the other continent.

Landing a SOD there is quite important. If we go into a war, and the other side is stronger than us. They'll land here and kick our but.

We'll fight for our land.

This type of cooperation takes effort and will, (regular screenshots of where the other team stack is), but I think is the way to win this game.

barbu do you want in on the discussion?

co-op is king, I second that but one has to win in the end. a matter of timing the turnaround I guess

For my side, I think cooperation is in order right now. We HAVE to grow faster than the other continent.

Landing a SOD there is quite important. If we go into a war, and the other side is stronger than us. They'll land here and kick our but.

We'll fight for our land.

This type of cooperation takes effort and will, (regular screenshots of where the other team stack is), but I think is the way to win this game. An experienced pbem'er has spoken and i believe you're right. If effort and will it what it takes, then effort and will we show. In order to do just that i suggest we send a Thank You-greeting card to mia just to summarize our view on yestrdays negotiations. I chisel one out here so you all can read and comment and correct flawed english.

Honored Representatives of the Greek People
The Celts are celebrating today and our musicians compose beautiful pieces about the strenght in unity. We feel you should know about this since you are part of the reason for theese joyous expressions.
The negotiation held was a tough one as should be between strong and healthy tribes. We believe the resulting agreement show that the effort made was well spent.
Since we are hoping for further, fruitful discussions we do have some concerns that we strongly suggest be sorted out. On both sides of the camp fire, the tone at times got a bit, shall we say...un-cooperative. Our standing on that matter is that some of the Greece representatives were badly adviced regarding information that could facilitate agreement. Some things are a matter of liking and wishing, some are facts, and the two better not be mixed carelessly as did Your representative. A few honorable Celtic representatives displayed a disliking of this unsuspected behaviour and in such a way that an apology may be in place. If so, we do apologize. We also suggest You do, as we do, an evaluation of the meeting in question, and based upon that send representatives that shows the wisdom and knowledge shown by the Greek Emperor.
To build a strong and trustworthy relation you must have patience, courage and will. If our shared continent can show that, then others shall sleep lightely in fear of what the future may bring. We Green People, light as dark, on the other hand shall sleep well after developing our beautiful continent in peace and knowing that no ill intentions can take a foothold on our shores for as long as our friendship is strong.

Signed by I'm Not Sure

How about it? A lil sweet, a lil sour. I think it reads that the "snotty" comments made by sw and tubs were well put, w/o actually saying so. I think EmpNap corrected his fellows when he got in and saw that they we're out of line.

.

Honored Representatives of the Greek People
The Celts are celebrating today and our musicians compose beautiful pieces about the strength in unity. We feel you should know about this since you are the reason for theese joyous expressions.

The negotiation held was a tough one as should be between strong and healthy tribes. We believe the resulting agreement DEMONSTRATES that the effort made was well spent.

On both sides of the camp fire, the tone at times got a bit, shall we say...un-cooperative. WE FEEL WE OWE YOU an apology.

THE WISDOM AND PATIENCE SHOWN BY EMPNAPOLEAN SHOULD BE A MODEL TO US ALL. To build a strong and trustworthy relation you must have patience, courage and will. If our shared continent can show that, then others WILL sleep FITFULLY in fear of what the future may bring. We Green People, light as dark, on the other hand shall sleep as we develop our beautiful continent in peace knowing that no ill intentioned ruffians can SEIZE foothold on our shores for as long as our friendship is strong.

Signed by I'm Not Sure


My emendations are in caps. In general, nicely done Daghda

Sorry about being snotty in my comments yesterday, guys. no excuse just apology.

I will take the hit on this one. By inviting too many cooks in the kitchen I let it get out of hand. When Bede left I should have limited the number of you into the conversation. Someone has said that 3 reps should be the max. I would like to have the rest of you on another IM for behind the scenes numbers, thoughts etc. but in the conversation was a little too much. With that said, I have sent a pm to Rambuchan and have requested him to be our liasion. I trust him and he can talk without muck in his mouth. :eek: In the meantime, I would suggest we forward Daghie's message to Fe3333au after it is cleaned up a bit. Maybe Daghie can make the recommended adjustments to his message in that post.

yes. sorry about outbursts, just thought they were mild-ish (what i really wanted to say, would have be *MODERATOR ACTION*ed ;))
i meant good,

IIRC i suggested just 3 reps. but no real harm done.

rambuchan is a solid nice guy. good choice whomp.

the message could be spell checked, and i agree with bede's additions.

Sorry, I could not attend, I would have loved to be there. Unfortunatly I was short on time and I did not have any contacs to reach it.

What we did at CDZ for diplo chat with another Tribe was the following:
You have 2 conversation going on:

In one conversation, The other team, 2 reps and 1 trascriptor

In the other conversation, the 2 reps, all the cooks that want a word, the transcriptor who copies what is hapening at the other conversation. In this conversation, it would be nice also to have a person who leads the conversation to make sure we stick to the point.

Finaly, a prechat thread is normaly usefull to make sure everybody agrees on the basics.

Barbu, looks like we posted similar ideas simultaneously in different threads. I think you expressed it better than I did. :)

We did have a second chat open. The entire conversation was copied & Pasted over until I realized that everyone in our "conference room" was also in the room with MIA. So we stopped copying it over. I wish I had saved that thread too. Oh well.


(Posted in MIA meeting too)

barbu, we had a very similar set up.

and aother idea i've had chating with Dagh.
i think we want a "hot-head" on he team reps, throwing snarky remarks.
it will make them think were acting more out of impulse than straight numbers logic.
it will also help ease tensions when neccesary.

something similar to what i did, but maybe a cooler person.
also when our "bad seed" throws some innuendoes about "reprisals", "revenge", "blood baths" or whatever, it will keep reminding them they cannot push us too far.

job will need to be discussed further to establish parameters, and ofcourse during the talks, in the hidden TK chat.

your thoughts?

Good cop...bad cop, huh? :p

I will try to keep this brief but will likely fail :(
When going to table, what do we want? I do not mean "pieces" here like chamnix, but what do we want to build as a big picture? At the moment I see three options (fill me in):
1. We go for an honest co-op with MIA. We decide wether to trick others or not based on this alliance. We share as much as possible with MIA so to focus on our shared continent as a power house. We then direct that power overseas in a joint campaign and duke it out v/s MIA when TNT/Nuts are ditched. This scenario is built on mutual trust. For now trust is a weak thing which was demonstrated clearly in our meeting. We should think up ways of showing our trust in them but also how to make them do the same. The sooner this can be accompished, the bigger advantage we will have towards others. If we dance around long enough, TNT and Nuts will (maybe) leave us behind copying our strat. If KISS and MIA can agree on how to handle Nuts and TNT, we will be huge. I would be reluctant to spell this scenario out for them but wait some to get them propose it themselves. I think we have pointed in a direction already.
2. We will two-time anyone when we feel appropriate. This is the bad guy way and will rely solely on military power. Opponents will soon enough turn against us and question is how we can become so stong that they don't dogpile us. They will be tempted to ally against us, especially when they notice we focus on arms. In this scenario the greek connection will maintain the greedy flavour.
3. Wing it. We have no long term strat, but take it as it comes. This is a flexible and possibly laid back style that suits anarchists but I don't think it will hold over time.

Please add more options and then let's vote on it. I think it will make it a lot more easy to handle contacts if this is somewhat clear within KISS.

Theese scenarios/strats can of course be layed out in much more detail but the reason for me babbling about it is I think we would gain on deciding which way to go in general. I favour the first one as you might have guessed ;) .
I agree w Whomps when it comes to "how to win". I want us to be dependable and fair and back that up with strenght (cliché alarm :vomit: ). Not devious dealbreakers, short changeing neighbours and bickering about gold pieces. Everybody knows that, in the end, hell will break loose and friends will turn to foes, but I believe that can be done in different ways.
If we show trust in MIA and they fool us, I will fight for revenge until game over and I will feel great about our team, no matter the outcome. If they don't fool us, I believe we will win this game.
When we meet the Greeks nxt time I propose we demonstrate trust in them first and foremost. If that is a success future neg's will go much smoother and the continent will start ticking nicely. I'm not sure about how this should be done (I'm but a mere blind rat remember :cool: ). Is it dog gone stupid to gift them one small town for one turn and then have them gifting it back the next? What else can we come up with that could facilitate this trust buissness?
I also propose we assign smaller groups of Kissers to work out the following:
-Mutual research plan. I would set Bugsy and Pentium as chairmen of this board.
-Mutual plan on how to handle future (soon to be) contacts w Nuts/TNT. This assumes they speak straight and true about not having met any yet.
-Agreement on how to handle the rex era. We want free hands in settling all over the place and they know we will out-rex them. Can we sooth their worries about that w/o giving away our edge?
-A proposal to MIA on how to handle future negotiations regarding logistics, participants etc. Barbu, gma?

Bummer...I'm an anarchist pushing for "dicussion-groups", pathetic indeed.

I just want to add that pretending to be a big plan maker is loads of fun but still just pretending. In RL I'm not at all like this.....trust me....please :lol:

-Mutual research plan. I would set Bugsy and Pentium as chairmen of this board.
i would add tubby here. his numbers will win the day here.

1. We go for an honest co-op with MIA.
id term it Semi-Honest. we work on the assumption that they are going to XX us.
we keep our army strong enough to make them bleed bad, but not enough to goto the otherside of the water.
units of a more offensive nature. im thinking GSwords, horses, knights. a fast response team. lean and mean.

We should think up ways of showing our trust in them but also how to make them do the same.
instead of gifting towns (which would tell them EXACTLY where we are now (which is bad), we give/LEND them a worker or two, no strings attached. say for five turns. they sure can use those worker turns. its not too many to warrant too many worries. they in return could offer some cash compensation. even a 3g price would be worth it i guess. to us both.

-Agreement on how to handle the rex era. We want free hands in settling all over the place and they know we will out-rex them. Can we sooth their worries about that w/o giving away our edge?
we can agree, LATER on, after we know the basic layout of the land, on a NATURAL border (a river, a mountain range, etc) and divide it up.
we should settle very agressively till then, trying to get the best land. they would surely do the same.
we can also outsource some workers to them.

I will stick by my original suggestion. Full cooperation with MIA.

If we would like to show good faith we can tell them about the ivory (or incense or both) their warrior will likely miss on the coast. To me, this is an offer in good faith that honestly we would not be able to use (ivory too far) or need (incense). We could eventually go so far as tell them about the dyes (if they go north) they'll see it within about 4-5 turns.

Shared everything. Research, excess resources, luxs, contacts and military ops.
There will very soon come a point where we have dyes and they have contacts. We want both of these to be shared IMO.

In my scheme of the world we either..
A) fight after the others are gone from the planet. IMO our best possible victory condition.
or
B) Agree to stay at peace all the way through till one of us either builds the spaceship or wins by culture.

Organizationally, I like Daghie's idea of team leaders. If these people are empowered to make decisions in their respective area it will add efficiency and expendiency. In the process, they can gather support and garner opinions from the whole team.

Give them workers :eek: Are you guys nuts? I don't think that we need to prove our trust to them. We showed our's first and they were VERY, VERY reluctant to give us info that we had just told them that we knew.

I really don't trust them. I hope that this was just the way the Ken cam off, but I saw it a tad in EMp. Killyouall too. I don't like giving a worker or a city. If they want a trust thing then I would feel more comfortable with a "we give them 100 G and they give us 4 gpt (+20 in their favor).

Give them workers :eek: Are you guys nuts? I don't think that we need to prove our trust to them. We showed our's first and they were VERY, VERY reluctant to give us info that we had just told them that we knew.
Agreed Tubs. No workers. They are inefficient for either of team as slaves anyhow. There are better means of cooperation.
I really don't trust them. I hope that this was just the way the Ken cam off, but I saw it a tad in EMp. Killyouall too. I don't like giving a worker or a city. If they want a trust thing then I would feel more comfortable with a "we give them 100 G and they give us 4 gpt (+20 in their favor).
I think they want what we want. If you read Rambuchan's comments they understand our concerns.

Yes but Rambuchan also said that he hasn't been involved lately as well....

EDIT::: I went into that meeting expecting us to be fully open (which we were) and them to return the guesture (which they did not). I am still open to full and complete cooperation with them, but I smell something and it's not in my daughter's diaper!!

Yes but Rambuchan also said that he hasn't been involved lately as well....

EDIT::: I went into that meeting expecting us to be fully open (which we were) and them to return the guesture (which they did not). I am still open to full and complete cooperation with them, but I smell something and it's not in my daughter's diaper!! It's because he just moved house to Cambridge. I didn't add that part of the conversation. Sorry.

I understand your trepidation and our next meeting will require a completely open view on each side of the table. If this does not happen or they want to make long term nice, nice with someone on other continent....then all bets are off. We need to have a consensus whether everyone is onboard with a plan.

So which plan do we want?

I do think that we should try to cooperate fully and try to facillitate that in any way reasonable. I will not speak in the next meeting though. I'll try to be available for support and/or transcribing.

Side note:: If they are not willing to share some basic information such as beakers per turn for planning purposes then I will remain in my opinion that they are dealing with another team and/or leaving options open for an off-shore partner.

I just want to comment on the trust thing. All the suggestions on showing trust seem so artificial to me. In my opinion an easy, natural way would be, after reaching a conclusion on who will research what, to simply gift them pottery, with the note that we expect the same from them when they reach a new tech. No more stupid trading. There would also be the added benefit of hopefully getting them more powerful sooner (we trusted them in this scenario, so that'd be desirable, remember :) )

I just want to comment on the trust thing. All the suggestions on showing trust seem so artificial to me. In my opinion an easy, natural way would be, after reaching a conclusion on who will research what, to simply gift them pottery, with the note that we expect the same from them when they reach a new tech. No more stupid trading. There would also be the added benefit of hopefully getting them more powerful sooner (we trusted them in this scenario, so that'd be desirable, remember :) )
If they are willing to be exclusive partners I would 100% agree with Niko. We could easily gift pottery and when they finish the wheel they do the same. Seems pretty simple to me. As well cash. Need a little? Fine we can help you. To me, exclusivity is the key phrase in our discussions.

That sounds good Niko. We wanted them to have Pots anyway right?


Could we just ask them if they wanted to research different techs & then we/they gift them once learned? Also if we (or they) get a trade with the other continent for techs then gift those as well. If gold is involved then 50/50.

I agree with Whomp....exclusivity!!! We could be a one-woman man and they could be our ?????.

That sounds good Niko. We wanted them to have Pots anyway right?


Could we just ask them if they wanted to research different techs & then we/they gift them once learned? Also if we (or they) get a trade with the other continent for techs then gift those as well. If gold is involved then 50/50.
Be our..exactly. Mutual exclusivity on contacts as well. If we strike this deal our dealings overseas become very short term and specific. Then the discussion goes to a new level about who first? D'nuts or TNT?

I'd say first contact MIA makes (I'm assuming they will before us) gets benefits and maybe they get the alliance of this continent. It would make for a more expedicious conquest and a feeling of security with our mutually exclusive new ally on the other continent.

The alternative is just go after TNT after we meet D'nuts....just because. This is harder to communicate IMO.

Should someone more eloquent than I with words draft a proposal to the MIA populace? I can give them numbers but they didn't respond well to that ;) I'd like to get this agreement within the next 3 turns if not before we get the next turn. Mainly because I think that they have a boat in the water and am a little worried they have made contact or will very soon.

First, do we all agree to this type of plan?
If someone diagrees with this type of plan let's talk about it now.

If we are agreed I would recommend one of our great scribes put in down on paper (or is it post?).

I posted a poll.....It lasts 2 days from now... Rik should be stickifying it soon.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=128103

I don't trust them... I said it in the MIA meeting post: I think they have another contact. But we have already come to know my 'thinking' ;) Well, call it a hunch then. Still, I will vote to roughly share beakers though the AA, which is effectively the same as the gifting option.

B) Agree to stay at peace all the way through till one of us either builds the spaceship or wins by culture. Oh, oh, oh, my culture plan back in place. Hurrah! :dance:

I like Niko's take on it. They were only a few turns shy of the wheel so their will to co-op will soon have to be demonstrated. A nice straight forward research plan suggested by us, they accept on the whole, we gift pottery and we go from there.
I'm as concerned about them lying about contacts as anyone else, well almost anyway. I sensed the foul play too, but I'm not all too sure it was 100% ill intent. Kenth had gotten a strict formula to follow and didn't know how to handle our openness. About us being that open on what techs we have, we knew we were but they didn't know that. I'm positive that Tubby provides us with info that they don't know how to get or use in a correct manner. If that be the case their unwillingness to believe us may be a display of ignorance.
I also like Whompsies idea of telling them where to find tusks we will not likely go after. That's the grace of the tribe strong and confident enough to be generous.

i agree.
dont gift them anything (i was tired. long day)
tell them where the tusks are...

plus i'll requote myself, as a side note.

id term it Semi-Honest. we work on the assumption that they are going to XX us.
we keep our army strong enough to make them bleed bad, but not enough to goto the otherside of the water.
units of a more offensive nature. im thinking GSwords, horses, knights. a fast response team. lean and mean.

A worker deal could be about building them (or they us) an improvement. That would take care of the lazy slave thing.

A worker deal could be about building them (or they us) an improvement. That would take care of the lazy slave thing.
but we would have to walk all the way down there, wasting 3000 years in the jungle ;)

but we would have to walk all the way down there, wasting 3000 years in the jungle Some groovy beats down there. I know you'd dig that.

Busy couple of days, so I'm just trying to catch up...

I very much desire full cooperation.

But must we rush this? We have a small deal in place, WE know what our short-term plans are, why not let it go for now. We continue to REX, they continue to do their thing.

As we approach Writing we contact them in a substantial way and then play nice (I like the idea of sharing the ivory location - not the dyes). I'm assuming that by then we will have our ring in an even stonger position AND that we will be outpacing them. Hopefully that will be apparent and our generosity would be seen as what it is, rather than as anything tinged with duplicity.

In the coming days if we can establish good lines of communication I think that cooperation becomes more of a possiblity.

One question: what is meant by "REX"? I've never heard that before this game.

PM to fe333 sent. See spoiler for final version. I hope spelling is OK enough not to make us look like barbarians :D .
Greetings from the Celts

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Honored Representative of the Greek People
The Celts are celebrating today and our musicians compose beautiful pieces about the strength in unity. We feel you should know about this since you are the reason for theese joyous expressions.

The negotiation held was a tough one as should be between strong and healthy tribes. We believe the resulting agreement demonstrates that the effort made was well spent.

On both sides of the camp fire, the tone at times got a bit, shall we say...un-cooperative. We feel we owe you an apology.

The wisdom and patiance shown by EMP.Napoleon should be a model to us all. To build a strong and trustworthy relation you must have patience, courage and will. If our shared continent can show that, then others will sleep fitfully in fear of what the future may bring. We Green People, light as dark, on the other hand shall sleep well after developing our beautiful continent in peace, knowing that no ill intentioned ruffians can seize foothold on our shores for as long as our friendship is strong.

On behalf of the Celtic Tribe
Daghdha

I think we must rush. They could be on the verge of contacts and I see no benefit to waiting. The earlier we agree to a long term relationship the better. Either they're on board or they're not. If they're not we no where we stand now.

IP--REX = Rapid early expansion. Someone should post the Tomoyo lingo thread. My dad was carrying around a piece of paper last night asking what things meant. CB, PTW, CFC....lol

I would certainly be in favor of developing an open and (mostly) trusting relationship. It certainly fits my natural inclinations to trust others until they demonstrate that they cannot be trusted.

I would find it delightful to agree on a perment peace on this continent with the outcome being a space race. War is a drag on the economy unless you only want your riches as the spoils of war...another alternative of course, but not my preference.

That's good Dagh. Only two spelling errors. That should fit in with our anarchic way of life.

That's good Dagh. Only two spelling errors. That should fit in with our anarchic way of life.

I'm an anarkissst! Doughnt u tel mi how tu spell!

@Whomp - after catching up on more posts I do see the point of haste. Dagh's PM (excellent by the way) lays out our ultimate desire.

If they agree in the affirmative, I think it would be good to reveal the tusks and/or pottery - show them the benefits of cooporation and how willing we are to be forthright.

I think I'd hold off on the gifts until then. Worse case scenario they could be inducments to a positive reception - but if they are that reluctant, they may not be fully coopoerative in the long run.

I guess the ball is in their court and we shall see.

Maybe we send Guido over and make them an offer they can't refuse. *Makes Marlon Brando type move*

Thanks for positive comments on PM. We'll see how good it is when MIA respond.

Side note: I really enjoy participating in this "RL"-part of the game. Since I'm rather daft when it comes to numbers this might be the best dept for me to share my "wisdom" in. I urge you thou to be straight forward if it becomes too much at some point.

Spoilered is a draft on what we could mail MIA to make things go a bit smoother at next IM meeting. Please correct/fill in /delete/discuss. I'm not sure we should send one at all in this form, but it's been suggested and I think it's a good thing.
Hail Friends of Light Green Tribe

We hereby send a list of issues that we believe would be good to talk through at our next IM meeting. The aim of this is to facilitate negotiations. We would appreciate it if You also made such a list and send it to us. Then we might agree on what issues to discuss in IM in good time before negotiating.

1. Are we contented with the current trading so far?
2. Do we wish to continue this trading?
3. Do we wish to arrange long term agreements, and if so, in what areas?
4. Do we wish to arrange a mutual agreement on how to handle future contacts with other tribes?

Kindest Regards
The Somewhat Darker Green Tribe
EDIT: This should be replaced by Whomps much better version!

Good agenda, Dagh! The only change I'd make would be a slight tweak in the wording, i.e. "Are we both contented....?" or "Are both teams contented...?". I only say this because it took me a moment to figure out if you meant "we", as in team KISS, or their team, or both teams. Yeah, I'm just nitpicking, but written communications can be ambiguous with no identifiable emphasis on particular words. :)

this is probably the wrong thread, but I request permission to get provolution p.o'd, fired up and irrational. BTW, i won't do anything without permission from at least one other team member (i.e. I'll submit the idiocy to approval) I saw an opportunity tonight, but passed cause nobody approved my proposed actions. See, i'm behaving :crazyeye:

I request permission to get provolution p.o'd, fired up and irrational.

An obnoxious sailor?! Does such a creature exist? Why Admiral, thanks for being willing to stretch yourself to such a degree for the good of the team. I still don't think you could pull it off... :D

An obnoxious sailor?! Does such a creature exist? Why Admiral, thanks for being willing to stretch yourself to such a degree for the good of the team. I still don't think you could pull it off...


give me a little time... go to the sign up thread... I'm accepting this as permission to go raise havoc...tomorrow :)

An obnoxious sailor?! Does such a creature exist? :rotfl: You guys are starting to hurt my funny bone tonight!

V/R
CDR Bugs, USNR :salute:

Reading this after being to the "city renaming"-thread clears the fog. May I ask the obnoxious sailor about the devious plan behind that most entertaining post of yours.

*Please note how my way of expressing myself has gotten more provolutionary after my recent involvement in diplomacy. I expect myself to be completely unintelligble and utterly stupid before the end of this, as Tubby put it, most ancient of ages*

just to remove all doubt - permission grasnted Admiral.
set sail on the sea of doom, do onto provo what he has done onto us.

Please note how my way of expressing myself has gotten more provolutionary after my recent involvement in diplomacy. I expect myself to be completely unintelligble and utterly stupid before the end of this, as Tubby put it, most ancient of ages

nice first try, not obtuse enough. try to be more like SW, who BTW has been appointed to teach the diplo speak class at the academy :lol:

So here's the answer to our PM about the meeting. The one where we apologized for the hard words and so on. Read it and look for the word "devide". It's in there ;)
Greetings from Team MIA

Dear Daghdha representative of the fine KISS.

We too are celebrating the inaugural meetings of our two peoples.

In fact it gladdens my heart on receiving your message ... I was just that moment penning a letter to your leader Whomp ...

It was to state that I was extremely concerned that the young hothead element, whom I assume crashed the meeting ... almost, through their arrogance and over zealous pride ... ended our talks prematurely with their rude interruptions and aggressive posturings ...

It was only in the name of peace and the mutual recognition of wisdom between my diplomatic party and your initial three representatives that my ambassadorial team did not end proceedings and walk away ... your young thugs rudely insulted my diplomats, me personally and the honour of team MIA ... I am glad that KISS has chastised them ...

I agree that while meetings should be open to observers on both sides ... At the same time I strongly suggest that the speaking stick is handled by the very few whose words carry wisdom and weight ... and that perhaps communiqués be sent prior to meetings which set the agenda of discussions ...

But enough of this ... as mentioned above team MIA is in full celebration ... Our President has sent you the gift of Alphabet and Iron Workings ... and we have received your package of knowledge and the first payment.

We feel secure that kindred green are honest and speak true ... we must speak soon ... I have received and archived the agreement ... the first of many which will share KISS and MIA stamps

Peace and Prosperity to both our peoples


Feaurius III
Foreign Minister MIA

young hot heads indeed.
my guess is im older thamn most of MIAs

Adults sometimes have a difficult time understanding "utes". Unlike our crew of bright youngsters some "utes" have a vocabulary that consists of "Wha", "sorry", "ok", "I dunno" and "what's to eat". It may be wise to bring IP, Pentium or Own to the IM backroom for "muck mouth" translation.

TNT and MIA is excanging compliments HERE (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=3066249#post3066249) . Killercane of the Nuts side with MIA. One may wonder what this tells us about possible contact between those two? Or could the Provo post be @ AK?
If others have made contact, my .02 is on MIA and Nuts :D .
It'll be very interesting to see what Captain Curraghs soapdish reveals. Depending on wether Nuts are N or S and taking the location of where the small gap between continents are, we might be able to calculate the possibility of different "contact scenarios". I'm counting on continents being mirrored regarding distance from start location to that gap. I also assume Rik has done something to even out the fact that 2 civs have alph and 2 doesn't.
Is this coherent? Suppose not. :king:

@ dagh - :lol: just back from the compliment exchange. i think i'm still under the radar. perhaps the "too smart" is directed at the power of stupid people?

I need a discourse on the trading of maps. Is it still in the same place on the tech tree? What about the trading of text instructions? Is that outside the spirit of the game? for example we could enter into a trade that would provide detailed instructions as to where to send a SoD... Thoughts?

hey look everyone - a non-spam post from boatman :eek:

EDIT: go check post 20 in dagh's link. I've made some general commitments. don't panic, nothing that means anything.

BTW, the post should get under ego boy's skin since it doesn't directly refer to him at all. The 4 horse SoD is deniable as a joke (I'll edit in the joke later if needed)

merry and pippin to all and to all a good night :lol:

AK, you didnt just "not refer to ego boy", you named everybody else EXCEPT him. :goodjob:
and he said he doesnt feel like entering into any agreements. fine by me :D

regarding the textual messages, i thnk those should be allowed.
text to be something along this type =
"in a land of great forests, and greater heat, where the sun sets, many leagues beyond the mountains, on the shore, is a family of tusks."
it will reveal a western shore, with ivory, near the equator. pretty specific to me, so i guess anyone could find them.
and if they cant, tough!

At the minimum, we would like to have either a response to the affirmative or your counterproposal before your next turn. We expect a "yay" or "nay" before our turn so we can send you pottery before your following turn. TNT has sent the save so now we'll see what pops up first. If they don't meet our minimal request, then I suppose the decline of the once so promising Greek tribe is signed, sealed and deliviered.

well now that we'll have a boat afloat this turn A-K can go navigate the 7 seas and find a suitable partner that will listen to reason....

EDIT:: Also note that they are a voting people, and there have been no "sticky" requests from MIA in the Needed things thread. So they either aren't voting for it or weren't planning on it from the get go.

If someone can check the email box during the day that would be great. I will be out of pocket from 5 pm GMT (noonish CST) till tomorrow morning.

I have the gmail notifier on here at work ;) I can keep track of any incoming

If we have to grind the Greeks to dust, that would be regretable business, not personal. T.N.T. on the other hand...

Since the good Admiral is posting about renaming things in the general discussion, I was wondering...

When we start making GS should we give them 'diplomatic' names like "Provo's Bane" or "CONvolution," or "P-boy's Pain Train?"

It might make some of our long-range goals clear so the diplomats wouldn't have to talk as much...

Just a thought.

No the other teams are being weinies about renaming units and/or cities that might offend someone.... bah. Taunting is part of every good competition!!

No the other teams are being weinies about renaming units and/or cities that might offend someone.... bah. Taunting is part of every good competition!! I agree Tubs. But, as I said to IroP the other day, it's ok as long as you don't lose distance and keep in mind that you should be able to shake hands and have a laugh when the store closes. Then again, some people are dorks and should be treated as such, no one mentioned, no one forgotten.

You're right Dagh. This is a game, we play for fun. Period.

But I must say, Provo has done something remarkable, something for which I thank him. He has created a villan against which we can struggle. THAT way, when my wife complains about me wasting time, I can inform her that I am not simply a paunchy, middle-aged white man spending free time on children's computer games, rather I am part of a grand endeavor - a genuine struggle of good vs. evil. It somehow makes my time playing Civ more noble and less pathetic.

Thank you Provolution! I am in your debt. :thanx:

Maybe you can incorporate that next Sunday....

And who said that this is a children's game????

You're right Dagh. This is a game, we play for fun. Period.

But I must say, Provo has done something remarkable, something for which I thank him. He has created a villan against which we can struggle. THAT way, when my wife complains about me wasting time, I can inform her that I am not simply a paunchy, middle-aged white man spending free time on children's computer games, rather I am part of a grand endeavor - a genuine struggle of good vs. evil. It somehow makes my time playing Civ more noble and less pathetic.

Thank you Provolution! I am in your debt. :thanx:
Man ... These are profound!

Maybe you can incorporate that next Sunday....

And who said that this is a children's game????

Somehow I think trying to explain K.I.S.S. in order to make sense of the illustration might take more time than people are willing to listen ;)

And I suppose 'children's game' isn't an exact quote, but I definately get the impression from my wife. And her opinion carries a great deal of weight in our home.

Now don't get the wrong idea, I'm the man of the house and I run things. If you don't believe me I'll show you the note my wife wrote that says so... :sad:

maybe we should PM provo and thank him?

maybe we should PM provo and thank him?

Nah... I'll be our little secret for now. We'll let him know at the appropriate time. ;)

But I must say, Provo has done something remarkable, something for which I thank him. He has created a villan against which we can struggle. THAT way, when my wife complains about me wasting time, I can inform her that I am not simply a paunchy, middle-aged white man spending free time on children's computer games, rather I am part of a grand endeavor - a genuine struggle of good vs. evil. It somehow makes my time playing Civ more noble and less pathetic.


:lol: welcome to my world

I am part of a grand endeavor - a genuine struggle of good vs. evil. It somehow makes my time playing Civ more noble and less pathetic.
I wonder if this explanation would cause my husband to stop giving me annoyed looks whenever I say, "Not now! I'm in the middle of a game." I mean, surely he can find his own car keys when I'm doing something so important. :mischief:

Message from MIA


To Team KISS

Thank you for meeting with us, we seem to be steadily getting closer to a mutually agreeable understanding ... and one of Continental Cooperation where 1 + 1 surely does equal 3 from both perspectives ...

I attach below the table of Relative Values for Technologies ... not to educate as we are well aware of your enlightenment, but more so that we are totally speaking the same language ...

Ancient Ages
Pottery - 2, Ceremonial Burial - 2, Bronze Working - 3, WarriorCode - 3,
Masonry - 4, Mysticism - 4, The Wheel - 4, Alphabet - 5, Horseback Riding - 5
Iron Working - 6, Philosophy - 6, Mathematics - 8 Writing - 8, Code of Laws -
10, Literature - 10*, Map Making - 12, Polytheism - 12, Currency - 16,
Construction - 20, Monarchy - 24*, Republic - 28*.

Middle Ages
Chivalry - 32*, Feudalism - 32, Engineering - 36, Monotheism - 36, Printing
Press - 368, Music Theory - 40*, Theology - 40, Education - 44 Invention -
44, Gunpowder - 48, Banking - 52, Free Artistry - 52*, Astronomy - 56,
Navigation - 56*, Economics - 56*, Chemistry - 60, Metallurgy - 64,
Military Tradition - 64*, Physics - 64, Democracy - 68*, Magnetism - 68,
Theory of Gravity - 68.

Industrial Ages
Espionage - 90*, Sanitation - 90*, Ironclads - 100*, Medicine - 100,
Scientific Method - 100, The Corporation - 100, Amphibious Warfare - 120*,
Communism - 120*, Industrialization - 120, Nationalism - 120*, Steam Power
- 120, Fascism - 130*, Electricity - 140, Mass Production - 140, Motorized
Transportation - 140, Replaceable Parts - 140, Steel - 140, Combustion - 160,
Refining - 160, Advanced Flight - 180*, Electronics - 180, Flight - 180,
Atomic Theory - 200.

Modern Age
Recycling - 240, Rocketry - 240, Computers - 260, Ecology - 260, Satellites -
260, Fission - 280, Nuclear Power - 280, Synthetic Fibers - 280, Smart
Weapons - 280, TheLasers - 280, Space Flight - 300, Stealth - 300,
Superconductor - 300, Genetics - 320, Minituration - 320, Robotics - 320
IntergratedDefense - 360.
* = Optional Tech


In light of this you can see that Pottery is one of the less valuable of technologies and therefore a direct swap for the Wheel should be totally out of the question, unless with the addition of a cash incentive ... the only alternative should then be one of a reduction in the cash total that you are currently paying us ...

But as a show of good faith and perhaps also to begin strengthening mutual trust and good will, we could be agreeable to a direct swap in the understanding that all knowledge trades cannot always be exactly even ... But as long as equilibrium is ultimately achieved, both sides should be prepared for the balance to occasionally favour one side over the other ... In this instance, we are willing to be short-changed temporarily ... This for us could very well be the first trusting step.

An equal show of goodwill on your part could be regarding your wandering warrior ... Since we view the river as a natural boundary ... We would see it as a show of mutual respect that your warrior focus his exploration to the northern lands ... likewise, if our warrior happens beyond a landmark you'd rather we not cross, we would naturally feel obliged to conform to your wishes ... We see this as a first step towards greater unity and trust between our people.

We await your next proposal ... and as you have demonstrated, require discussion points posted at least 24 hours prior to chat meetings ... Also to avoid frustration and time wastage you should be aware that our diplomats have limited agreement powers where discussions wildly divert from the agenda, and all such options must be brought back to MIA where citizens can comment.

Your team should now be aware of what we can trade ... and where we stand ... we await your revised document ...

Regards

Feaurius III
Foreign Minister MIA

My objection: They seem eager to limit our expansion. I say No to that proposal. We are on neutral ground and scout where ever we want to. Otherwise it sounds good. Our show of good will could be telling them about that ivory to the W.

Ditto. I'm still a little perterbed that they don't value Pottery.

I say that we play buddy buddy but don't give them anything useful. I agree with what someone else posted that a partner on the other continent will be MUCH more valuable. Let's wait for A-K to find them.

I do not understand what they are saying: a direct swap (pottery-wheel) is out of the question, unless we pay less than we are paying now??? Then they quickly add that they are willing to be short-changed until the next trade. From this, I guess, we can discern that they are in fact starting to understand the true value of pottery. Do we know what they are researching now?

They are researching the wheel, according to a past IM conversation

Maybe they would find the value of Pottery increased if we suggested that we wait to deal for it until we have enough techs to do a straight up exchange. Their realization that they would either have to wait quite awhile or research it themselves might persuade them to "just trust us". :mischief:

In that case I say we swap when they finish... they will be able to research it pretty fast anyway. We scout whereever we want, as long as it's neutral territory.

EDIT: what gmaharriet said is pretty smart too :goodjob:

Whatever the deal, I'd like that treasury of ours to be full enough for us to send a stack of warriors on teambuilding when the time comes.

neutral grounds is open to ALL people.
if they dont want pots, dont give it to them, we'll do a "fair trade" if thats what they want.
AK - go find those donuts, will ya?

Someone should PM MIA an answer to these 2 PM's they've sent. The amended "all in/all out"-offer which in their hands became a "leave us alone through AA"-offer plus this last "pot is of no value, but please don't outexpand us"-proposal. Maybe time for Bede to play the role of spokesman?

I think that our lack of response will speak to them. Specially when they see that our warrior doesn't stop scouting. ;)

hear here.
it takes two to tango, and we can surely muster a couple of dancers on the other side of the dancehall.
the :ninja: are rady for some :spank:

Alright I'm confused.

What is our basic attitude/approach to MIA?


Do we like them? Do we trust them? Are we going to accept their AA deal? Are we just going to do simple tech-trades?

Frankly, at this point, I am ambivilent about them. My inexperience/emotion may be coming into play, but I don't know that I see a long-term benefit with them. I think that technology deals with an 'other-continental' partner would pick up whatever lack a strained relationship with MIA would create.

Making nice in AA makes sense, we can't effectively wage war anyway. But I don't know that I would work to keep in their good graces if it would our growth/expansion.

I know I'm a 'young hothead,' I would love to hear the perspective of the grumpy old men.

KB

Well as Bede would say "do we need it right now?" ? The answer is an emphatic "no".

Horses are not required by us at this point. Our UU is a horse with better characteristics. They require pottery to turn 2 pop in four turns instead of 8. Simple math in my book and I don't need Tubby to figure that our for me. It's a required game winning strategy. I'd say let's put off the pot for wheel trade. They don't see the benefit and we don't need horses (other than to finish off the AA tree).

Let them try to get it overseas and see how it's valued by D'nuts or TNT. I presume some of the players on those teams understand the value of pottery. As well, D'nuts probably researched their UU techs and may need some techs and/or offer a better wheel deal.

Anyone who wants to assign a real value on the tech tree needs to continue playing SP. No reasonable human player values free artistry over gunpowder or democracy over Mil. Tradition.



As far as Peapants goes I would say we simply will not walk 1 tile from their real natural borders

My take on the MIA-deal:
We deal with them as we should deal with anyone, i.e. to our advantage or nothing at all. We follow the three pillar of trading (1) do we need it, (2) can we afford it and (3) can we sell with profit. 3 of 3 is excellent, 2 of 3 is OK but 1 of 3 is a :nono:. That line of questions is to be followed before any deal with them and every deal is a, as chamnix put it, "little piece" and not part of a bigger picture. When it comes to the pot-wheel deal I see only one criteria fullfilled, we can afford it. That is not enough so no deal.
I suggest rest of AA deals be treated in same way vs. MIA. We do not need to be overly hostile but there is no need to be generous either. That option blew out the window some time ago and MIA blew it.
As I have stated before, I'm totally against anything that could put a limit on our expansion ans I can see MIA trying to do just that. We should clearly state that borders will be naturally drawn when expansion phase is over and that's it. If they're short on luxes, well, I would quote Kentharu and say "Sorry". If they want it, they will have to pay the market price w/o buddy-discount.
Their AA-deal is IIRC just thin air so I think we can accept it because there's no obligations except not to attack before one of us enters MA. I don't see us doing that anyway (but shortly after) so go ahead and sign it.

Mil Trad. over democracy.
Uhh...I think you meant it the other way around. ;)

But I agree. If they don't care about Pottery, and we don't really need Wheel, why bother trading?

I think we should counter with this...
We will research writing they will research the masonry and myst and exchange it.
We will research philo and they will research CoL. If we get the sling we shall share republic if it doesn't we will renegotiate (or not at all). That's my .02 at this point.

We will respect their natural borders within one tile and they should do the same for us.

Uhh...I think you meant it the other way around. ;)

But I agree. If they don't care about Pottery, and we don't really need Wheel, why bother trading?
Yeah but when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor...:lol: Sorry I was in rant mode. Thanks for correcting me IP. I changed it.

I think we should counter with this...
We will research writing they will research the masonry and myst and exchange it.
We will research philo and they will research CoL. If we get the sling we shall share republic if it doesn't we will renegotiate (or not at all). That's my .02 at this point.

We will respect their natural borders within one tile and they should do the same for us.
exactly.
they dont seem like they want trade. we dont need theier trade. so no trade.
borders are ONLY claimed land.
ALL free land is free for grabs or "tourists".

about the CoL - Phil deal, IIRC phil is much cheaper than CoL. how will they time the tech to meet our rushed run at phil?

about the CoL - Phil deal, IIRC phil is much cheaper than CoL. how will they time the tech to meet our rushed run at phil?That's a good question....
Is this how that works out? If so we should research philo (slower than CoL if my numbers are correct).
Turn 1. Team 1 finishes CoL and sends it two team 2.
Turn1. Team 2 must accept and (send 1g say?)
Turn 2. Team 1 must accept that deal.
Turn 2. Team 2 accepts the deal
Turn 3. Team One waits.
Turn 3. Team Two finishes philo and sends philo and republic(hopefully).

Talking to Mistfit a bit and he's brought up a number of good points. Maybe he'll post the same.

If we don't agree to a deal are we willing to accept that if they make first contact they hold all the "trade cards"? CB and WC will likely not be known by the others. MIA may make a case to trade those for pottery while we're stuck researching wheel and HBR on our own because we have nothing to trade. We don't want to be the one left out in the cold on deals.

Maybe we need to make the deal mutual exclusive but AA only and request that we each play the other two teams off that we have nothing going on and we share through the AA and renegotiate if we like how things are going.

As far as Peapants goes I think we should suggest a ROP within two tiles of real borders.

It appears to me that the gang at MIA are not hitting on all cylinders unless their intentions are to expand with the "pointy stick". And quite honestly they don't have the horsepower for it, even with the Wheel. Whomp is right, we don't need no stinking horses and if they don't understand the value of pottery that is their loss.

My suggestion: offer them through the end of the AA, a non aggression pact and what I will call "Most Favored Nation" status . Most Favored Nation simply means that we will offer what we learn to them at the monoply beaker cost less the Emperor trade rate discount if, and only if, they will reciprocate. Other nations will pay monopoly beaker cost. No shared research, no sweet heart deals, just cold number crunching.

After reading and rereading the log of Whomp's conversation with them I must draw trhe conclusion that we are dealing with a bunch of folks who are dangerous because they are ignorant, or arrogant, or both. Their choice of research subjects does not lead me to the notion that they are seeking a peaceful co-existence, but somehow hope to overwhelm any continental opponent. All I can say to that is that Hoplites are so much meat to the GS grinder, and will remain so until they learn gunpowder.

As for the Pope Clement solution of drawing lines on an unknown map, Bah! It dinlt work in the 15th century and it won't work now. Neutral territory is precisely that. And when we come to visit for real it won't be with a warrior named Peapants.

The point I was trying to make last night was that you may have to lose a battle to win the war. IMHO I'd make the trade. To me it seems like a fair (if a bit one sided) trade. Pottery (regardless of its usefulness) is one of the cheapest 1st tier tech and Horses is one of the most expensive.

I would not look at it as "they need pots more than we need horses" I'd look at it as hey I can get the wheel for the really cheap pots. IIRC one of your oppnents have pots to start with... Please correct me if I'm wrong as I've not followed this very closely. So you can assume that if they are on a continent together they have already shared pots. It looks to me as if only MIA is missing the tech making it very cheap indeed.

If it were me I'd bite the bullet and pull the string on this trade and move on.

As far as limiting movement... I'd tell em to shove it up their arse

OK we need to think about what we are willing to do.

I think we are all on the same page regarding Peapants. Do we counter with a 1 or 2 tile buffer from actual borders?

A. As Mistfit said give pottery for wheel. Though we don't need horses and they need to grow the benefit to us is we don't have to research wheel and they may be able to trade for pottery.
B. No deal for pottery.

Then would you do that deal with or without another deal? I'm inclined to wait and just throw out the pottery for wheel deal and then tell them we will discuss further options...

Regarding longer term deals we can look at it a few ways.
1. We are willing to accept their AA deal. I think consensus says no to this proposal and I don't know why we would want to help a scientific into the MA.
2. Bede's "favored nation" offer. It's all in the numbers and no sweatheart deals.
3. Republic only offer--Our writing for their masonry and myst. Then attempt the sling and (potentially) renegotiate. Who researches philo and CoL? Seems attractive to both of us and then (maybe) renegotiate further.
4. Let them deal on their own deal-- We don't writing to them but we find another partner for our writing to attempt a sling. This gives the admirality to meet someone. Our research running about 14-15 turns more.
5. Any other proposals?

I think that we should go with Mistfit's idea and Bede's...

Get Wheels for Pots. Then don't offer Writing to them. By then we should have met another civ. Then we can offer them the same mutual exclusivity offer that we offered MIA. No other infomation should go to MIA, including anymore hinting at settler pumps and or resources/luxes.

I don't think that MIA is our best partner for Republic. They are the smallest nation (although right now they are technically bigger than us - won't be for long).

I don't think that MIA is our best partner for Republic.From my limited knowledge of your diplo relations with MIA I wonder if they are the "best" partner for anything...

MisT'a argument on the pot-wheel deal is sound and I'm inclied to agree we do the deal.
On the bigger research picture I lean towards Bede's suggestion to treat them as any counterpart and "crunch the #". Every piece is a new deal but the sling can be labled as one piece.
I do think we should attempt the sling and could well do it together with MIA if we can work out the schedule and time it right. I would like to give them the impression that we have settled on them as our "favourite partner" and hide other dealings as much as possible. That could maybe make them feel a lil bit secure building less military. Good for us when the AA-deal expires.
I don't know about any longer term arrangements with others but the options will of course be clearer when our naval dept has deployed their latest project and started some scouting. I think maybe we should gang up with whoever is the strongest and hint at the option of helping each other clean our respective continent from "thrash". Another tempting alternative is to ally with the weakest, if not too weak, and sieze the opportunity of pillageing large parts of the strongest tribes territory. That would slow things down a bit over there.
I'm not in a hurry to take initiatives to any "exclusive" deals (once bitten), but would like TNT or Nuts to approach us instead and see what they have to offer.

Yes, what Dagh said! :D

So far as borders are concerned, perhaps any limits on distance be using actual borders, but agreeing not to send more than one unit within a certain distance for a limited period of time. For example, no more than one scouting unit at a time within 2 tiles of their (or our) actual borders until we are both out of the AA. That way both teams could take a look, but without the risk of a sneak attack by several units.

My suggestion: offer them through the end of the AA, a non aggression pact and what I will call "Most Favored Nation" status . Most Favored Nation simply means that we will offer what we learn to them at the monoply beaker cost less the Emperor trade rate discount if, and only if, they will reciprocate. Other nations will pay monopoly beaker cost. No shared research, no sweet heart deals, just cold number crunching.
This will be like telling a computer to compute the value of pi. their heads will explode and/or melt. ;)

I have no useful comment on the actual tech deal.

I have no problem with limiting our land exploration. Any opponent worth meeting is worth meaning by sea. When's the last time anyone met a land locked civ on a map like this? We should accept no restrictions on peace loving curraghs that lack transport capability. Naval movement will need to be renegotiated after MM. A concern at this point is that they've met someone and are trying to keep us away.

I certainly agree that any restrictions we might abide by would not include exploring boats, but land units only, and we should be allowed to at least scout the land areas for resources/lux. Certainly MIA would have no reason to fear our landing an invasion-sized force during the AA.

they ARE trying to keep us away.
dont ask, dont tell policy.
but trust me, nothing illegal (in most countries)

i say NAY to ALL movement restrictive deals.
(except the "no closer than 2 tiles - 1 unit deal)
and i have some serious doubts that they can finish CoL on OUR time scale.
lets find us some foriegn help.

I certainly agree that any restrictions we might abide by would not include exploring boats, but land units only, and we should be allowed to at least scout the land areas for resources/lux. Certainly MIA would have no reason to fear our landing an invasion-sized force during the AA.
after going for archers and horses, i think they have every reason to fear us engaging in unlawful behaviour.
if I were that militarily inclined i would.
a lovely quote to illustrate...
You're the reverse of a paranoid. You actually THINK you have friends.
with my addition - Even paranoids have enemies

FYI::: Emp. Napolean has changed his MSN display name to Cry Havoc! and let slip the dogs of war. Why would a diplomat have such a name???

Why would a diplomat have such a name???

erm...your an idiot? no that would make him our team mate...uh...lemme get back to you on that

I saw that too. they've met TNT and allied?

after going for archers and horses, i think they have every reason to fear us engaging in unlawful behaviour.
if I were that militarily inclined i would.

I had in mind the difficulty of our being able to mount a sea-borne invasion force in the AA, but I'm pretty weak in knowing about military attacks that early.

A PM I just sent to Regentman (admin for the MTDG)
hear us o great and worth mediators,

we are a simple people, abiding by the rules your braintrust hath gathered (howdy GA). we beseech thee to remember the simple people who can not keep up withthe rulebreakers. we plead for the appropriate sanctions

Blessings be upon you,

Team KISS

I have no problem with limiting our land exploration. Any opponent worth meeting is worth meaning by sea. When's the last time anyone met a land locked civ on a map like this? We should accept no restrictions on peace loving curraghs that lack transport capability. Naval movement will need to be renegotiated after MM. A concern at this point is that they've met someone and are trying to keep us away. Sharp thinking Captain. Of course the are using Peapants as a bait. If we agree to their proposal, it prolly cuts us off from the gap they have discovered on their E coast.

I still say we should exchange pottery for the wheel, when they finish it. It's just good value for us and they will research it pretty quickly if we don't. Writing will be a different ordeal (but boy am I glad WE are researching it ;) ), it will depend on whether we met someone else or not.

In general I feel we should deal with MIA on a deal-to-deal basis, nothing spanning an entire era or similar deals. No need to nail ourselves down and loose flexibility... we've seen already how fast plans can vanish in thin air to make room for new ones.

In general I feel we should deal with MIA on a deal-to-deal basis, nothing spanning an entire era or similar deals. No need to nail ourselves down and loose flexibility... we've seen already how fast plans can vanish in thin air to make room for new ones.

I think Crakie is right. They seem to like deal by deal, give that to them. I'm willing to adjust research along amicable lines, but we should probably remain aloof in most respects.

My appraoch with MIA:
Confirm peaceful intention
Trade Writing for a fair price (i.e. don't stick it to them)
Grow, Grow, Grow.

I think that gives us some consensus folks.
1. Peaceful intentions. 1-2 tiles from borders.
2.Bede's Favored nation approach and we will do it deal by deal. Hard core numbers.

One more item...
Pottery for wheel? If they say no then fine so be it.

Should I draw something up?

draw it up

1-2 tiles from border is what I am worried about. If they have settled on coast north of continent gap we can't get past their coastal village with our curragh and likewise they may have closed that gap on land. If we're not to be within 2 tiles of city border they must have 5 or more tiles between city borders for us to get past. A very loose build can prevent us from a lot of exploring/settling. I say a big NO to their silly restrictions, and of course they should be allowed to get lost in any neutral territory for as much as they like.

I agree with Dagh. No limiting movement with a single unit. If it were me I'd start with the agreements that we are fairly certain we can get... Tech Pots for Wheel. Then once that is done move on to the movement thing. I'd say no tresspassing with more than one unit with in 1 tile of of the opponents border (unless you are within your own borders). With one unit I'd say no tresspassing in the opponents border.

@Dagh ~ I liked the layout of your sig so I stole it :devil:

A PM I just sent to Regentman (admin for the MTDG)
Quote:
hear us o great and worth mediators,

we are a simple people, abiding by the rules your braintrust hath gathered (howdy GA). we beseech thee to remember the simple people who can not keep up withthe rulebreakers. we plead for the appropriate sanctions

Blessings be upon you,

Team KISS



I know I am a day late and a dollar short, but what am I missing here?

Gussy up the language on the MFN deal structure, kill a few barbs for them, but don't take any movement restrictions. They are hiding something if they are so concerned about a wandering bear skinned warrior. Just wait until the GS start flipping their kilts.....

I know I am a day late and a dollar short, but what am I missing here?TNT was a few hours late and a couple of us idiots decided it would be a good idea to send a PM to the admin.

TNT was a few hours late and a couple of us idiots decided it would be a good idea to send a PM to the admin.

Let's not get down that road... I like it when people take themselves or the rules not too seriously. Leave that to Provolution :lol:

Via our gmail accountDear Rival

Team MIA have discussed at length the preferred method of diplomacy ...

The Proper Channels

1. An agenda will be sent via PM and e-mail to our team address = mtdgMIA AT gmail DOT com

2. We will then arrange a chat session if necessary via your assigned ambassadors


Peace to You and Your Team

Regards

Feaurius III
Foreign Minister

"Dear Rival"????? Where have all the flowers gone? Do I detect a change in attitude there? Seems like I recall they were celebrating our glorious meeting each other in their last communique. :hmm:

document
-MIA gives wheel upon completion and KISS gives pottery now.

- MIA and KISS land units stay at least 1 tile away from each other's borders, during the peace.

- MIA and KISS sea units don't stay on the same tile in each other's territory for 2 consecutive turns, during the peace.

-MIA and KISS will offer each other "Most Favored Nation status". Most Favored Nation simply means that we will offer what we learn at the monopoly beaker cost less the Emperor trade rate discount if, and only if, MIA will reciprocate. Other nations will pay monopoly beaker cost. No shared research, no sweet heart deals, just cold number crunching.

- KISS will get writing while MIA gets Masonry and Myst. As soon as KISS gets Writing, the team with the best research capability starts on Code of Laws, while the other team starts on Philosophy. Code of Laws will be discovered first and given to the other party before Philosophy is discovered, so that Republic comes as a free tech.

- Techs are shared between both teams when Writing and Republic are discovered. We believe this balances out under "Most Favored Nation" status.

- MIA and KISS are at peace. Since both of us can't really know what new developments will be in the future, our peace deal is basically unlimited, and can only be terminated at least ten turns beforehand. This shall not be done, before at least 10 turns have passed after the discovery of republic.
[/spoiler]

MIA and KISS land units stay at least 1 tile away from each other's borders, during the peace.I think that this should state
MIA and KISS land units stay at least 1 tile away from outside of each other's borders, during the peace

In a nice fashion I would like to respond to Fe that we are extremely disappointed in the knowledge level of their envoy. If they want to discuss hard numbers then they should be prepared to bring someone with knowledge of the game to the table. A better agreement is when both sides agree before showing (voting etc) it to their teams. Then actions can be taken. My .02.

I am prepared to tell him I am resigning for his insulting comments and forcing me to deal with his lackeys in the first place. He and his bureaucrats have set the bar very low when dealing with us. We don't see our relationship as priority and I find it offensive.

Major Idiot Whomp

I am PMing you to inform you that I have e-mailed KISS the letter that outlines the Proper Channels in order for all future diplomacy to be conducted ...

Emp.Napoleon has informed MIA that you had a meeting and then went on to say that he told you that he was not the player assigned to KISS ... so could not assist in your eagerness to conduct diplomacy ...

You should also know by now that we have a diplomacy system ... it is the best system designed by and for our particular team dynamic ...

I am intrigued that we still have not heard form you regarding the modified agreement and considering that you were extremely eager to discuss tech trading with Emp.Nap ... why have we not been sent anything in writing?

I am the Foreign Minister and Kentharu the KISS ambassador

Your options are PMing us and e-mailing MIA ... for swift action you can e-mail me direct on optusnet dot com dot au ... as I am a very active player ...

Therefore I expect something from you soon ...

Feaurius III
Foreign Minister MIA

how about this here EDIT OF WHOMPs letter.
i think it clears all the fog and will make this dancing bear either toe the line or go over it.
We were and still are, extremely disappointed in the knowledge level of your envoy - kentharu.
If you wish to discuss hard numbers then you should be prepared to bring someone with knowledge of the game to the table.
Dealings must be done with people of authority. If said player CANNOT make an executive decision, he should stay home.
It is far better when both sides agree on a certain deal before showing (voting etc) it to their teams. Then actions can be taken to the team for a vote.

We are outraged by both your insulting comments and forcing me to deal with your lackeys in the first place. You and your bureaucrats have set the bar very low when dealing with us. We don't see our relationship as priority and find it offensive.

When you have decided you are willing to talk BUSINESS, feel free to appoint a capable member as ambassador.

This ofcourse, us being Honourable, DOES NOT change any of our current deals.
its a bit harsh i agree, but it seems they need a good smack.

Sick em boy!!!

Tell him that all of our diplomats resigned and they will be forced to talk to the wind. Peace will still be between our two nations but no negotiations will proceed until competent diplomats are assigned on MIA's side

Also tell them that we consider unclaimed territory just that and that we can and will explore unclaimed territory.

Before my head explodes someone please change this so I send the right message.


Foreign Minister Fearius III,
To be blunt, we don't see our relationship as priority and find it quite offensive, in fact, that we have not had the opportunity to deal with a decision maker directly. We were and still are, extremely disappointed in the knowledge level of your envoy - Kentharu. Emp. Napoleon even said to us he is teaching Kentharu the ropes. Both nice young men but I am personally outraged by both your insulting comments and your government forcing me to deal with your lackeys in the first place. You and your bureaucrats have not given our people a high degree of confidence with your treatment and heavy handed tone when you have not even attempted to speak with us.
If you wish to discuss hard numbers then you should be prepared to bring someone with knowledge of the game to the table.
Dealings must be done with people of authority. If said player cannot make an executive decision, he should stay home.
It is far better when both sides agree on a certain deal before showing (voting etc) it to their teams. Then actions can be taken to the team for a vote.


When you have decided you are willing to talk business, feel free to appoint a capable member as ambassador.

This of course, us being Honourable, does not change any of our current deals. Here is what we are willing to offer at this point.


-MIA gives wheel upon completion and KISS gives pottery now.

- MIA and KISS land units stay outside of each other's actual borders, during the peace.

- MIA and KISS sea units don't stay on the same tile in each other's territory for 2 consecutive turns, during the peace.

-MIA and KISS will offer each other "Most Favored Nation status". Most Favored Nation simply means that we will offer what we learn at the monopoly beaker cost less the Emperor trade rate discount if, and only if, MIA will reciprocate. Other nations will pay monopoly beaker cost. No shared research, no sweet heart deals, just cold number crunching.

- KISS will get writing while MIA gets Masonry and Myst. As soon as KISS gets Writing, the team with the best research capability starts on Code of Laws, while the other team starts on Philosophy. Code of Laws will be discovered first and given to the other party before Philosophy is discovered, so that Republic comes as a free tech.

- Techs are shared between both teams when Writing and Republic are discovered. We believe this balances out under "Most Favored Nation" status.

- MIA and KISS are at peace. Since both of us can't really know what new developments will be in the future, our peace deal is basically unlimited, and can only be terminated at least ten turns beforehand. This shall not be done, before at least 10 turns have passed after the discovery of republic.

Yours in bond,
Major Idiot Whomp

Looks good to me.

Should it be sent to their "legal department" too? I can do that via gmail.

MIA and KISS land units stay at least 1 tile away from each other's borders, during the peace. Apart from this, it looks good. We can agree not to come with more than 1 unit NEXT TO border. The 1 tile away thing, I don't like at all. Neutral is neutral.

We can agree not to come with more than 1 unit NEXT TO border. The 1 tile away thing, I don't like at all. Neutral is neutral.I mentioned that earlier but it didn't stick so I abandoned it. I garee.

I adjusted it and garee myself. Anything else? Should I send to Fe and Tubs sends it to the gmail?

I'll wait til you send yours before I send it via gmail

Well done Whomp, send it.

Final copy. Please forward by email.
Foreign Minister Feaurius III,

To be blunt, we don't perceive our relationship as a high priority in the eyes of MIA and find it quite offensive, in fact, that we have not had the opportunity to deal with a decision maker directly. We were and still are, extremely disappointed in the knowledge level of your envoy - Kentharu. Emp. Napoleon even said to us he is teaching Kentharu the ropes and though Emp. Napoleon is a communicator he doesn't get into "game mechanics". Both are nice young men but I am personally outraged by both your insulting comments and your government forcing me to deal with your lackeys in the first place. You and your bureaucrats have not given our people a high degree of confidence with your treatment and heavy handed tone when you or your president have not even attempted to speak with us on IM.

If you wish to discuss hard numbers then you should be prepared to bring someone with knowledge of the game to the table. Dealings must be done with people of authority. If said player cannot make an executive decision, he should stay home.
It is far better when both sides agree on a certain deal before showing (voting etc) it to their teams. Then actions can be taken to the team for a vote.

When you have decided you are willing to talk business, feel free to appoint a capable member as ambassador.

This of course, us being Honourable, does not change any of our current deals.

Here is what we are willing to offer at this point.


-MIA gives wheel upon completion and KISS gives pottery now.

- MIA and KISS land units stay outside of each other's actual borders, during the peace.

- MIA and KISS sea units don't stay on the same tile in each other's territory for 2 consecutive turns, during the peace.

-MIA and KISS will offer each other "Most Favored Nation status". Most Favored Nation simply means that we will offer what we learn at the monopoly beaker cost less the Emperor trade rate discount if, and only if, MIA will reciprocate. Other nations will pay monopoly beaker cost. No shared research, no sweet heart deals, just cold number crunching.

- KISS will get writing while MIA gets Masonry and Myst. As soon as KISS gets Writing, the team with the best research capability starts on Code of Laws, while the other team starts on Philosophy. Code of Laws will be discovered first and given to the other party before Philosophy is discovered, so that Republic comes as a free tech.

- Techs are shared between both teams when Writing and Republic are discovered. We believe this balances out under "Most Favored Nation" status.

- MIA and KISS are at peace. Since both of us can't really know what new developments will be in the future, our peace deal is basically unlimited, and can only be terminated at least ten turns beforehand. This shall not be done, before at least 10 turns have passed after the discovery of republic.

Yours in bond,
Major Idiot Whomp

done567890

I agree now 100% with our statement. What I would like someone more into pbem game mechanics explain to me is the consecvences of this:
- MIA and KISS sea units don't stay on the same tile in each other's territory for 2 consecutive turns, during the peace.
If the poor sods say No, what will happen? If we make a halt in their waters we can (1) be asked to leave OR (2) be told told to pi55 off or declare. Is this random or does it work by logic? They can't just declare through a PM but it has to be "in-game" so I guess we should be clear about this.

In my opinion back-stabbing is OK in this game... ie no ingame declaration, just walk up and attack.

But with that said. We had better have an OK from another civ, because as we have said before 2 vs 1 always will win.

I agree now 100% with our statement. What I would like someone more into pbem game mechanics explain to me is the consecvences of this:

If the poor sods say No, what will happen? If we make a halt in their waters we can (1) be asked to leave OR (2) be told told to pi55 off or declare. Is this random or does it work by logic? They can't just declare through a PM but it has to be "in-game" so I guess we should be clear about this.
There are none of the "AI" type feature in a PBEM so I think the point is keep the boats moving. If it lingers in the same area there's a fear units would be dropped off from those boats. Declarations of war will be clear when our SOD comes knockin'.

Declarations of war will be clear when our SOD comes knockin'. We can send Peapants back down to say "Peek-a-boo" before we hit :D

The last draft is good and seems to cover everything.

I also like the letter about bringing a knowledgable decision-maker to the table. It almost sounds like they don't have confidence in anyone on their team to be able to do that. I can understand their electing representatives, but if those reps are untrustworthy, they shouldn't have been elected. You shouldn't just fill "offices" with warm bodies. Our anarchy seems to be much more productive.

Our anarchy seems to be much more productive.
:rotfl: :thumbsup:

just sent a pm to fe3333au that said:

"think maybe we should have an informal discussion.

No restrictions, no decision making. My IM is akidiot@hotmail.com.

as u know we're anarchists with equal power.

I will not ask anything dishonorable.

feel free to memorialize any conversation. "

he seems the brightest of the lot. just fishing :mischief:

A letter in our gmail box apparently address to Whomp Dear person behind the Whomp

I am writing this letter as a personal reaction to your last message ... I wish to absolutely and unequivocally state that I am writing as the person behind fe3333au ... and this should in NO WAY be connected with an MIA response ... which is currently on hold until this is cleared up ...

I feel you are confusing the Game Issues (or how we as a group of players have chosen to play this game) and the Team Issues (or the team MIA roleplaying element) since your missive makes reference to both ...

Here are my points and excuse me if they are stated bluntly as I am extremely offended and taken aback in the tone of your message.

Why am I offended ? ... I have come to the conclusion that it is because I have the honour of holding the Foreign Minister position and as such have had a large part in developing the diplomatic system ... a system that was only just being discussed and designed prior to our contact ...

1. We, (like KISS) as a team are made up of a diverse group of people living all over the planet, we come from diverse age groups, occupations, technical ability and computer resources (hey man we even got a guy who has big problems cos he's only got a Mac :lol: ... I'm passing a collection hat around for him at my local pub ;) ).

Anyway we as a team have decided to play this game in our unique manner where all players are included and encouraged to participate ... In order to facilitate this, players are assigned in-game roles where the person is responsible for various aspects of the game ... after a period of time other people are encouraged to take on these roles ... or even new yet to be defined roles ... in this way everyone will eventually have a chance to experience all the exciting and fun elements of this unique gaming experience and later perhaps concentrate on the elements they are most comfortable with.

I know that your team works differently ... and is a strong collective of many old comrades from previous campaigns ... I imagine that old battles and scars are often discussed ... but our system has been developed and adopted to best suit our way of playing ... it is also one where members are able to suggest new and innovative ways of playing ... we openly encourage dynamic discussion and our rules and methods are adaptable ... but this is our prerogative not yours ... so you and every other team and player will have to come to terms with this ... and I respectfully say Deal with It :p

2. As I have stated in various correspondences now ... we have developed a diplomatic system which fits how we play the game ...

We can both agree that the anarchy of our first chat was totally unproductive ... therefore we have developed and tweaked a system that will work for us ... and eliminate the unproductive nature of previous chat ...

>Rival sends a proposal of things to discuss
>MIA as a whole team discuss this and come up with guidlines
>the Diplomatic Chat session is where both teams haggle a deal and discuss the proposal
>Diplomats have the ability to barter and agree on items on the agenda ... this is their brief
>Diplomats can be sounded out about new stuff but ...
>Rival must write new proposal in official letter
>MIA discuss

I am sorry if this is frustrating to you but this is how we as a team have decided to pursue diplomacy ... I totally understand your perception of having unbriefed diplomats ... but if things go widely from the agenda MIA have stated that the whole team MUST have the ability to input ... This is an exciting and important part of the game and MIA want that everyone should have the opportunity to take part in some manner.

If it helps, and it did me ;) see it as trying to do business with an Asian culture ... It is OK to be frustrated with the Chinese because they do things differently ... all that is needed is to be aware that Yes is not agreement but merely an acknowledgement that you have stated something ... It is however unacceptable to be rude and/or condescending :nono:

3. Not all of us have or want MSM ... I personally have AIM (fe3333au) ... as Nikodeemus knows :confused: ... if you wanted to talk so bad why didn't you contact me on AIM? ... I bring this up because if you felt frustrated you could have contacted me personally ... and perhaps things could have been rationally discussed ...

So bottomline ... we as a group of players have decided on the best way we collectively want to play this game ... and as stated before, we all come from different backgrounds so the system we have developed and taken on suits the group of people designated MIA ... which is a simple wish to share the excitement and (just quietly addictiveness) to all the players of our team.

So in lieu of this I give you the opportunity to reword your letter ... or if it stands then MIA will see it an official correspondence.

I again hope that you do not take offence to this ... or if you do then let it be with me and not MIA.

Hoping this clears some things up ... I trust that it has just been a clash of game systems and not in teams within the game

Yours sincerely

The person behind the fe3333au avatarApparently he doesn't realize that we DON'T have to deal with it and can just ignore them in diplomacy and "role playing".

You guys aren't going to believe this but AK had an informal diplo meeting with feau3333 and got some things hammered out. Skippy and Igor were turned loose and stuff was accomplished. I think.

I'll let the Admiral tell you about his tales.

no hammering fe. we got game. he's in tune with idiots. :) i was blunt, but tubs and whomp can give the verbatim stuff. i actually Pm'd the informal thingy before he replied. I harped on "we want to speak with decision makers"

BTW, can I trade Emp Napoleon, chivarly for Rep? :joke:

I wasn't aware Fe sent his response to the gmail box so here's my exchange by pm. I also spoke to Kentharu and apologized to him. He apologized for not being prepared.
Fe,

If you would like to discuss this or tell me what you find offensive please do and I will do the same for you on your communications to us.

I find you personally witty and refreshing in our other encounters and I do not want this to become personal.
In the meantime, if you'd prefer to keep the letter sent to you separate from our offer of peace that's fine too.
Now the reason that I am sending personal correspondence is that i sense your frustration ... in that the chat stuff is perceived to not being as effective as you would wish ...

But our bottom line is that we want all the team to be involved or at least have input in this sort of stuff ... it is an exciting new game concept after all ...

I don't want heaps of chatters (as I am positive you don't as well) ... and because of our inclusive approach to the game ... we have demarkation for ultimate decisions ... also the issue about technology ... many don't have the chat option ... I do but as mentioned AIM not the other one ...

I was rereading your PM and when I ignored the stuff written in frustration ... the 7 points for agreement are exactly what we want ... I have posted this also on the thread with the comment that it's a pity the other stuff was sent with it ...

So as Werner I reacted with the personal letter just to clarify where I and the MIA team are comming from ... however saying this as Feaurius III (which is another facet to the game I can't wait to fully explore especially when we all officially meet) ... anyway 'he' (now I'm starting to sound schizophrenic) would react quite differently ...

So if there has been any misinterpretation it would be a pity for the game to follow paths that are not necessarily that which neither Werner nor Bernie would want ... but which Whomp and fe3333au would find themselves ...

We as a team are also open to new ideas ... but there are ways and ways ...

I'm a bit rambly atm as it is way past Z-time ... but body clock is way out of sink atm anyway

So maybe if you want we can AIM ... I am fe3333au on the old AIM thingy

What do I want to achieve ... perhaps a rewrite ... you have made a point and we have taken note ... I bloody cringed when I read the last chat when Kentharu dropped out due to technical difficulties and an Emp.Nap. was left and totally unprepared ... the last one with Emp ... i don't know what was said as the record of the chat was not posted ...



But because we are concentrating on the fun factor and giving everyone a go ... What i really reacted to was the condescending nature that you addressed Ken and Emp ...

I would hate for a Bernieism to be misconstrued as one coming the leader of KISS ...

So let me know Matey.


I will personally apologize to these two young men if you feel that is what is necessary.

I think the experience they get from these discussions is fantastic and have said so in our threads. I am in charge of my companies summer intern program so I like to teach young people the right way to do things.

Where Ken, in particular, got off on the wrong foot is when I asked him to schedule a specific time (some of us have to work) but he couldn't accommodate us because he doesn't wake up till 10:30. Go to bed and we can talk about this tomorrow.



BTW please tell me if I'm being condescending.

Are you being condecending Whomp? The Blind Rat Idiot waves his magic wand and proudly presents:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/skinbox.jpg

Fact: A matter of fact can, per definition, only contain objective properties. That is, properties that are undisputable. Regarding a written PM the only fact about it is that it's written and that the words within it are written/typed the way they appear.
Interpretation: When we encounter facts we have to relate to them. Often this is done based on 2 principels. First, our interpretation must be understandable to us, otherwise we cannot do anything with the fact. It has to make "sense". Second, everything that makes sense to us in reference to our former experiences and beliefs are easily interpreted as facts.
Opinion: This is where it gets interesting and often :crazyeye: . An opinion, like "you are condecending", is based on the above and it is painfully obvious that communication sometimes break down due to a mix-up between them. It is impossible to be condecending, but perfectly ok to be percived as it. MIA will interpret everything we say as "disrespectful" or "condecending" because it makes sense in light of their experience and, thus, will become a fact, i.e. we are condecending.

In addition to this I would like to point out that (I believe) any one of us, had we been signed up to MIA, would've acted about the same as they do, and the same goes the other way round.
This was prolly not an answer to your question but it was fun to post a picture of B.F. Skinner :D

Daghie somehow I feel so much better now. :D Thanks!! What the heck it's Friday everybody!! :beer:

Came with the save

Official MIA Response to KISS

My esteemed friend Major Idiot Whomp

Greetings to you and all the equally rational folk at Team KISS ...

On behalf of the honourable and fair team MIA ... I would like to
extend the open hand of friendship ...

We have received your proposal The Seven Tiers to Friendship
and have had time to discuss it among the citizenry ...

However before we discuss these ... I would like to reveal contact
with another team ...

We were cautious regarding the rules governing the exact nature of
what is able to be disclosed and therefore we felt it prudent for MIA
to consult with the Administrators as the issue of what can be
divulged had to be clarified ...

For your information we include in the following spoiler, all the
rulings and replies to our intra-team queries regarding the contact
rules ... It indicates the meticulous scrutiny that the rules were
subjected to ... it also should in itself shout volumes about the
character and honour of team MIA ...




Telling Team KISS that you have met team Doughnuts is fine. Giving any
hint as to land features, a direction or anything else other than a
simple "We also want to tell you, Team KISS, that we have met Team
Doughnuts." isn't allowed nor necessary. Trading "directions to Team
Doughnuts" in exchange for gold, techs, or cities is strictly
prohibited.

That statement, of course led to more discussions and eventually
another call for clarification ...


Another Question about discussing a third party

We have another dilemma regarding what information is allowed to be
divulged to a rival when discussing the interactions with an unmet
team ...

We understand that the rules do not allow communication, map, etc to
be traded until that particular tech is appropriated ...

Q1 ... when exactly can communication (e-mail addresses) be traded is
it when embassies can be established ie. Writing ??

Anyway we understand that we can say the following:
>We have met team A
>They live <insert verbal rough directions>

But can we say ...

>That we have traded?
>Full disclosure of our dealings?
>What we feel and suspect about them?

I would say ... Yes ... but we would like clarification please ...


The clarification came ... from both ...


Yes, I would allow all of that. *I* wouldn't say a direction, just
saying "we met them by sea" or "by land" to be safe, but it's your
call. At most, use a direction - no distances or landmarks involved!


and


Specific contact trading is forbidden until printing press, as is
e-mailing them (except save sending).

Yes you can. Just remember, don't say that you met Team A on
coordinate square 188, 203. Say they're to the south.




Therefore team MIA would like to share the following -

> We have made contact with Team Doughnuts
> We traded Pottery for Bronze Works ...
> We don't know where they come from exactly, but they came by boat from the east ... therefore we suspect another land over the ocean blue ...
> They are a very proud people and with much chest slapping and boasting they let slip that they indeed possess the knowledge of Writing ...
> In lieu of our pending friendship we made absolutely no mention about team KISS nor the dealings between us ...
> In fact, at that meeting we were absolutely sure that within the Game Rules, we could state that MIA had met KISS if we so wished ... We chose not to !!!

I would like to take this opportunity to further clarify our perceived
stalling on the issue of disclosing contact with another people ...

1. We had sighted but not officially met with Doughnuts prior to our
first meeting.
2. We required clarification on the Game Rules.
3. Then further clarification was required.
4. During our last Official discussions, our assigned
ambassador Kentharu was permitted to mention contact but due to
unfortunate technical difficulties he was cut off at the very moment
when he was about to answer that very question ... (see transcript)
5. The other representative Emp.Napoleon, who had been invited by
Kentharu to assess and advise on the improvement of his diplomatic
performance, was not as fully briefed ... you may recall this was a
somewhat impromptu meeting.

Therefore by the quirk of Meleet :worship: this knowledge of
new neighbours was not passed on to you ... until now ... although,
and it should now be absolutely plain to all ... the will for honest
openness was already in place ...


... Now to Business ...


The Seven Tiers to Friendship

1. MIA gives wheel upon completion and KISS gives pottery now.

Unfortunately due to issues and factors mentioned above, we have
managed to acquire, through fierce haggling the art of Pottery
from team Doughnuts in exchange for the knowledge of Bronze
Working :sad:


2. MIA and KISS land units stay outside of each other's actual
borders, during the peace.

We agree ...


3. MIA and KISS sea units don't stay on the same tile in each
other's territory for 2 consecutive turns, during the peace.

We agree ...


4. MIA and KISS will offer each other "Most Favoured Nation
status". Most Favoured Nation simply means that we will offer what we
learn at the monopoly beaker cost less the Emperor trade rate discount
if, and only if, MIA will reciprocate. Other nations will pay monopoly
beaker cost. No shared research, no sweet heart deals, just cold
number crunching.

We agree ... BUT For ... in the understanding that Emperor
Discount Rate is 150 - that is, the teams will trade each other
techs for up to 50% more or less than their fair value.

4a. Deals with other nations which go beyond monopoly beaker cost
for trade, must be agreed to by the other party ... ... MIA feel
that this addition will make it possible for both teams to further
benefit from our respective negotiation and bartering skills.


5. KISS will get Writing while MIA gets Masonry and Mysticism. As
soon as KISS gets Writing, the team with the best research capability
starts on Code of Laws, while the other team starts on Philosophy.
Code of Laws will be discovered first and given to the other party
before Philosophy is discovered, so that Republic comes as a free
tech.

We agree ...


6. Techs are shared between both teams when Writing and Republic
are discovered. We believe this balances out under "Most Favoured
Nation" status.

We agree ...


7. MIA and KISS are at peace. Since both of us can't really know
what new developments will be in the future, our peace deal is
basically unlimited, and can only be terminated at least ten turns
beforehand. This shall not be done, before at least 10 turns have
passed after the discovery of republic.

We agree ...

>>>>>>>>

We would also like to add a clause ... or dare we say step ;)

The Eighth Step to Trust

8. On first contact with an unknown team, either KISS or MIA will
share, automatically when their game save is sent, this fact with
their continental neighbour in written form.

As you can see ... team MIA have responded to you in total openness
and honesty ... and expect nothing less in return ... in good faith we
have even divulged information beyond the parameters of the pending
agreement ...

We have proven ourselves ... and inspired by the words and antics of
our young urchins ... The round squishy bouncy throwy thing is in
your hand ...

We await your response ... :mischief: and mayhap a gifted token of
some description :p

Peace to us all

Feaurius III
Foreign Minister MIA

That was cool. We should tell them about the ivory methinks.
We need to figure a way that the three teams can get the sling now.
Is it also an opportunity to gang up on TNT too?

Yes, cooperation with D'nut for the slingshot is a good think, if they are for it too.

Not sure about war with TNT, they might be heaviliy prepaired for it (judging from a certain person's posts:)). I think out-researching them will be a better way.

Am I a sucker? I'm starting to like MIA again.

I find the tone and explanation believable; but remember, I'm new to this playing against real people, so I could be a dupe...

It seems that the agreement is pretty fair, and if nothing else a solid foundation for future cooperation, yet general enough that we aren't tying ourselves down too early or too tightly.

I think telling them about the ivory would be good (they'll find it anyway). We may want to consider telling them about the dyes...I'm not sure about that.

Ivory ok. Dyes nope. They know one or the other right now. ealry next week I'll figure out where there warrior could be.

Remememeber that MIA can negotiate with D'nuts. WE can't. So they have the upper hand. Also that bit about letting the other one know about a contact. :p They only have one more team. I'd let them know about D'nut if we meet them but not TNT.

We need to figure out how to make this a trio for a sling and leave TNT in the dust. What is it worth to D'nuts (thru MIA) to have all of us sling together and get out of the AA as soon as possible? Is it all techs we have and will research till republic is in all of our hands?

Definitely not on dyes. We still need another settler there.

good thing they came about :D

lets let them know about the tusked hornets.

treaming up with donuts for the rep sling would be UBER cool.
but how to do that?
well, first we need to meet them ASAP (or trust MIA with handling it for us :nono: )
then maybe:
donuts give us writing, while we (kiss + mia) research CoL and LIT or MM or BOTH C Techs, or ALL.
team going for philo should be the slowest one.
CoL team gives it to PHIL team. get REPUBLIC.
we ALL (KISS, MIA and DONUTS) share the techs. (REP, LIT, MM, POLY or more if needed.)

this is NOT number crunched, just a preliminary idea.

if something similar is achieved, we can be out of the AA pretty quick, me thinks.

Based on MIA's position, and how early it is in the game, D'nuts have to be east right?

Should we adjust the production and get a curragh out after this settler and go looking for ourselves?

I guess I'm the only one that doesn't want just 3 teams in this game. TNT could be a powerful ally. What happens if MIA/D'nut turn on us. We will need a partner. We need to see who is in the NW ASAP.

Based on MIA's position, and how early it is in the game, D'nuts have to be east right?

Should we adjust the production and get a curragh out after this settler and go looking for ourselves?
East of them. so that means ~20 turns before our little dinghy can get to the SE of OUR island. I say let d'nut find us. They will eventually. MAybe Ave. Joe can go S along the coast to facilitate an earlier meeting.

i had a nice chat with Fe last night, do the deal

war is easy to declare, had to stop, stay out of military alliance for now

do the deal

Do you understand the 150 tech rate thing with a +- 50% thing?

Do you understand the 150 tech rate thing with a +- 50% thing?

I don't, explain please.

That was Whomp's point..... does anyone know what this means before we agree to it. I have an idea but I don't like my idea. so I would like for clarification from the MIA.