This thread will be used to discuss and keep record of our contact with Team M.I.A.

On to the first order of business - we must plan a greeting to MIA. A nice little greeting message extending a hand of friendship to hopefully open the way for future tech trades should do nicely.

How do we go about diplomacy in PBEM games? Send an email or PM or ?

We can make contact if we decide to this turn, and I think we should negotiate some things right away. I think we should ask for an extension of time if we need it to discuss since the early game is so important in this context.

How about "Hi lets gang up on any smaller nation"

In the MSDG and ISDG, we used several different methods including emails sent to the team's email address, messages sent using the in-game message system, mutually agreed upon chat rooms, and person to person contacts in chat and on MSN Messenger.

Provolution has already passed turn 28 to MIA. I'm going to take the precautionary move of sending a greeting email so they don't get offended by seeing our galley without an accompanying note of some kind. Sorry about treading upon Octvaian X's perogatives but I really didn't expect them to get the save just 30 minutes after I sent it. :eek:

Text:

Greetings to the people of MIA, from the people of Doughnutia. This communique is just a quick advisory that a curragh bearing our flag has sighted your fine city of Athens and approached, to open a dialog. Our Foreign Minister is feverishly drafting our formal greeting and commencement of diplomatic relations.

Sincerely, DaveShack
Doughnutia Turnplayer

The save is in our inbox already and MIA has sent us the following message:

Salutations from MIA!

Our Foreign Ministry team is also now working to craft a proper hello.

But from one turn-taker to another - looking forward to working with you!

All the best,
General_W, current President of MIA

Not much info. We need to pump them for information imo, and we need suggestions on how to do that. I opened the save in CA II and they dont have writing yet. Surely they did not go for mathematics to get the SoZ??

The whole "handle diplomacy outside of our turn" is not going to work if the other teams are going to just zoom the save right back at us within 14 hours. Doesnt leave much room for discussion. We should take our time and do whats best for our team.

Edit: NOT a got it.

We have received the next message from MIA.


Hail the goodship ... ummm ... sorry you are still too far away to discern her name ... by the shape we would say a Curragh ... must have been a trying journey for you all ... do tell us all about it?

If you come in peace we will gladly meet with you ... how many days have you been at sea? ... do you need food or water?

Our representative to you is Emperor_Napoleon

Peace to you and yours

Feaurius III
Foreign Minister

Surely they did not go for mathematics to get the SoZ??

Edit: NOT a got it.

Well they have ivory right there, so they might have thought that might be a good idea if the others teams were close by. And if they have gone for maths for the SoZ, then that's to our benefit, since there will be more techs to trade between us.

If all this is the case (and its a big if) then we can go about the trade by saying we wont go for SoZ if you don't go for Philo, but we trade each other the techs for these, making it a win-win situation

Well they have ivory right there

The rules were changed for this game, SoZ doesn't need ivory

The rules were changed for this game, SoZ doesn't need ivory

Hmm didnt realize that. They are probably just a few turns behind us on writing.

Lets come out and ask them to be our trade partners. Finding out their current research path is what we need to do; I dont think we should particularly care to tell them we are multiple turns into philosophy. Bronze for writing would be equitable if they are getting close to it.

They want maps and direction help? They can give us a non aggression pact until an arbitrary date for that information. Or information on other continents/civs.

Proposed reply:


Greetings!

I am Octavian X, the Consul for Foreign Affairs, representing the mighty Safety Inspector Homer Jay Simpson of the Doughnutian Nuclear Power Plant (and no, we don't have any idea what one of those is, either).

We appreciate the M.I.A. concern for the safety of the sailors aboard the Curragh. The sailors report that they still have many years' supply of doughnuts and Duff™ Beer. In return of your grateful gesture, our magnificient ruler wishes me to ask - are you getting enough oxygen? Because we have plenty over here if you ever need to borrow some.

Our people also look to advancing their technical knowledge. We posses the anicent arts of Writing and Pottery, and wish to trade these skills with M.I.A. We also have many delicious pastries and not-so-delicious gold to trade.

We hope to hear from you soon,
Octavian X
Consul for Foregin Affairs

The correspondence looks good to me. We need to do a lot of back and forth with them since the save will zoom right back to us in 12 hours or so. I assume we are going to send it on asap since we have been formally asked to do so.

Hopefully we can get it all worked out by next turnset. We havent even voted on going for republic or maps yet. Republic would be such a huge advantage Im going to continue to push that as much as possible. Are there any other suggestions besides plans 1, 2, and 3 in the other thread?

Im leaning towards Plan 1 (philo for us, stop research to accumulate gold until Greece gets CoL). But what to do with the 200-300 gold? It could be taken by an errant barb and normally I would like to stay at max research to lessen those kinds of chances. And it might take Greece 30 turns to get CoL, who knows until we get some info from them.

A possibility is to use the gold to upgrade some vet warriors to swords and send them to attack. We are either on a horizontal continent or a pangea looking at the minimap, and one of our opponents is probably due north. A city 3 tiles NE of the capital would make a solid warrior factory, and if we are on a continent, we could get some galleys out of a city 3 SE. We would probably have both of those cities down in 12 turns. We would need to scout the north with another ship soon to ascertain civ locations, but looking at where Greece is we are probably all on the 4 corners of the map. We also do not know if we have iron nearby, but based on the rich start we probably will have all resources nearby.

Why attack so early? For one, Persia and the Celts will have at best spears, warriors, and their UU. Warrior Code is a priority for neither civ. A stack of 5-10 swords will force them into an early golden age just for survival (IF they have even hooked up iron, and arent building up warriors to upgrade to their UU). Any cities we burn would further their growth. Any techs we get is a bonus. They do not know where we are to counterattack. The window for something like this will be closed by 1000 BC. We wont be hurting expansion at all since we will be maintaining the settler factory in the capital and the worker factories.

Pros: little risk to us, but big benefits. Can severely hurt another civ and further our northern expansion, and get us some free techs/gold. Puts us in a position to dictate terms to the other team.

Cons/investment needed: a barracks that we will need anyway at some point, 100 shields in warriors +600 gold or some combination of shields/gold. Shields/gold towards 3-5 ships if the other civs are offcontinent. Dont know if we have iron yet. Lots of ifs, ands, or buts with this strat at the moment.

Sidenote: I dont think we are being absurdly tardy with the save, as the other teams are (probably) doing simple MM while we are trying to adjust some important strategy and vote on the same while getting to know another team. And Im thinking Provolution is running a limited dictatorship with his team so that probably adds to their speed. Im not complaining about being told to move along, without those constant prods we would probably hold up everyone for too long and ruin people's fun; there is certainly room for us to improve our efficiency.

Why tell them what techs we have that they don't have? Do we know they want to trade? We can also ask them what they have available for trade, maybe they'll tell us first.... my guess is they went either towards Math or Iron working.

I would choose Map Making as free tech, as it's the by far most expensive one available to us, and then research the Wheel, CoL, Republic in that order. Map Making enables galleys, they are a huge strategic advantage. The Wheel enables fast explorers (chariots) and shows us where the horses are. Republic is only really useful when we have reasonably large cities.
I would not stop research to wait for Greece to do something. How do we know we can trust them? And besides, even if we trade them writing (for what?), it will take them a long time to get CoL. We should play our own game, slowly build up a trusting relationship with Greece if possible, and not rush headlong into the unknown. If we can trade techs with them on an equal basis, all the better. But let's take this step by step, please.

About the attack plan: I think the map was made to be continents. As you say, to build swords we need iron working and iron, which deviates from our optimal research path. We don't know who is up north, if anyone, and what their position is. If it's Persia or Celts and they have their UU available, then an attack with swords could well backfire.

This kind of early attack may work, or it may not. We first need to know more about our world. Build more ships. Find out who is where.

Just thought of something: we can of course check what M.I.A. = Greece has, by comparing tech prices with the values in the editor, or as given by a tech calculator.


as a check, bronze working (known by 1 civ that we know out of 4) should cost 75, and it seems to do so. (so Greece has it, as we already know).
masonry and the wheel each cost about 120, which means Greece doesn't have it.
warrior code costs about 90, and ceremonial burial about 60, again meaning that Greece doesn't have it.
we can still sell pottery and writing to Greece.

So the only tech that Greece may have learned is Iron Working. Of course they may be researching something else at the moment.

A reasonably fair trade is bronze working and iron working (research cost @ 2nd is 75+153=228) for writing (cost 204), or for writing and pottery (cost 204 + 51 = 255). The difference could be made up by a monetary payment.

Of course we don't need to tell Greece that we have a clue what they have researched :D.

I guess the landform is continents, good point. So the Q is are they vertical or horizontal? Our brave curragh going west will soon tell us. If Greece is on another continent, we'll know we share a continent with another civ, who will surely be due north. Logically, a "fair" map created by the mapmaker would leave each civ room for expansion and would place them all in disparate corners so that battles and such would not come at 3000 BC.

Why tell them what techs we have that they don't have? Do we know they want to trade? We can also ask them what they have available for trade, maybe they'll tell us first.... my guess is they went either towards Math or Iron working.
Why not tell them? Why wouldnt they want to trade? I doubt they'll tell us first, but if we open up and tell them and dangle something out there, I have a feeling they'll bite and give us their info to do with what we will. If they dont, damn them, and we can drop a few warriors off by their capital to initiate their golden age ridiculously early as payback.

I would choose Map Making as free tech, as it's the by far most expensive one available to us, and then research the Wheel, CoL, Republic in that order.
Thats one vote for philo-MM.
Republic is only really useful when we have reasonably large cities.
Simply not true, sorry. Even with our setup now, we would be gaining extra food at each of our 3 cities, and loads more commerce from the gold hill we are on, the wines, and all the river tiles we are working. Even with garrison (insurance) units, we would be getting a 50% increase in our gpt capacity. Every turn we are out of despotism while the others are despotic is a turn towards dominating the world.

I would not stop research to wait for Greece to do something. How do we know we can trust them? And besides, even if we trade them writing (for what?), it will take them a long time to get CoL. We should play our own game, slowly build up a trusting relationship with Greece if possible, and not rush headlong into the unknown. If we can trade techs with them on an equal basis, all the better. But let's take this step by step, please.

About the attack plan: I think the map was made to be continents. As you say, to build swords we need iron working and iron, which deviates from our optimal research path. We don't know who is up north, if anyone, and what their position is. If it's Persia or Celts and they have their UU available, then an attack with swords could well backfire.

This kind of early attack may work, or it may not. We first need to know more about our world. Build more ships. Find out who is where.

We would have to get an agreement in writing to "trust" someone else. Everything outside of that writing and the ruleset is fair game (can you tell I moonlight as an attorney?).

I agree that I would not like to stop research in any particular direction, but I do see some benefit in Plan 1; Im really on the fence between Plans 1 & 2. I would like to change to CoL, and have Greece do the 40% cheaper philo or do CoL and philo while Greece does MM. Thats if they want to be our trade buddies; I mean we could convince them through diplomacy we are a lock for philo, agree to nothing, switch to CoL, and then do philo, counting all the while that they wont try to beat us (with our headstart) to philo, but thats probably too risky for some people's tastes here.

I also agree that deviating to IW is not optimal, but I would rather do that than settle for Mapmaking as a free tech.

I didnt plan on being that active for this game but the competitive urges kick in, and you just cant help it. Balls out aggression and thinking outside the box will win this game. Nothing is "for sure" until it happens, and if we operate on the sure thing the whole time we are not going to win. We have the strongest starting civ in the game, lets use our strong start!

All the players on the other teams have read the war academy, strat guides, SGs, etc. and know how to play the game to differing extents; we should strive to use their knowledge against them by doing unexpected things (like the philo slingshot or marching a stack into the uncharted fog where we think they are). "Be bold, be bold; in everything be bold" is a good RL or civ strategy if you can apportion risk properly.

I like the idea on keeping tabs on tech costs, and we should use that to its full advantage. :goodjob: Sorry for the longwindedness but we need some pep in our step and thoughts/counterthoughts on the board to succeed!

Why not tell them? Why wouldnt they want to trade? I doubt they'll tell us first, but if we open up and tell them and dangle something out there, I have a feeling they'll bite and give us their info to do with what we will. If they dont, damn them, and we can drop a few warriors off by their capital to initiate their golden age ridiculously early as payback.


I don't know what they want or don't want. I would simply be cautious, and try to get an advantage everywhere. We can always send them a message like "we would like to trade technologies. Do you have any techs that we might like?". Sounds innocent enough, and puts them in the position of opening up first or being impolite. Anyway, it's not very important. I agree that they will probably want to trade.


Simply not true, sorry. Even with our setup now, we would be gaining extra food at each of our 3 cities, and loads more commerce from the gold hill we are on, the wines, and all the river tiles we are working. Even with garrison (insurance) units, we would be getting a 50% increase in our gpt capacity. Every turn we are out of despotism while the others are despotic is a turn towards dominating the world.


I beg to disagree. Republic is nice, and I would switch to it asap, but it doesn't make a lot of difference early on. More food is nice, but we're not exactly short of food. You don't get a 50% gpt increase, you get 1 more gpt from every citizen (before corruption). Currently our unit level is very low, but it needs to get higher. Very soon we'll need more explorers, more defenders, more workers, and a few sentries as well. This could easily amount to 3-4 units per city (something like 1 worker, 1-2 defenders, 1 sentry or ship). Republic can pay for this, but you need large (>= 7) cities, possibly first-level improvements. Republic also needs more lux tax usually.

We would have to get an agreement in writing to "trust" someone else. Everything outside of that writing and the ruleset is fair game (can you tell I moonlight as an attorney?).

I agree that I would not like to stop research in any particular direction, but I do see some benefit in Plan 1; Im really on the fence between Plans 1 & 2. I would like to change to CoL, and have Greece do the 40% cheaper philo or do CoL and philo while Greece does MM. Thats if they want to be our trade buddies; I mean we could convince them through diplomacy we are a lock for philo, agree to nothing, switch to CoL, and then do philo, counting all the while that they wont try to beat us (with our headstart) to philo, but thats probably too risky for some people's tastes here.

I also agree that deviating to IW is not optimal, but I would rather do that than settle for Mapmaking as a free tech.


I think I read these plans somewhere, but can't remember where...
I wouldn't trust an agreement in writing, for that matter. As soon as we sell writing (the tech) to Greece, and tell them we're waiting for them to finish CoL before we complete Philo, they control us. They don't even need to betray us and research other stuff (perhaps Philo?) instead of CoL, just the 20 or more turn pause in our research is enough to set us back. And what will we do if they keep telling us that "researching CoL is taking them longer than expected"?
If we trade writing to Greece they should give us IW in return, so no need to research that.
I would agree on taking Republic as free tech if there was a reasonable way to get CoL before Philo, but there isn't. Map Making isn't so bad. It's quite expensive, and galleys appearing at enemy coasts may cause some panic, diverting their resources towards countermeasures.


I didnt plan on being that active for this game but the competitive urges kick in, and you just cant help it. Balls out aggression and thinking outside the box will win this game. Nothing is "for sure" until it happens, and if we operate on the sure thing the whole time we are not going to win. We have the strongest starting civ in the game, lets use our strong start!

All the players on the other teams have read the war academy, strat guides, SGs, etc. and know how to play the game to differing extents; we should strive to use their knowledge against them by doing unexpected things (like the philo slingshot or marching a stack into the uncharted fog where we think they are). "Be bold, be bold; in everything be bold" is a good RL or civ strategy if you can apportion risk properly.


I agree, in particular with the last half-sentence :). Simply marching an army off into no-mans land guessing that there will be a rival there somewhere sounds a bit too risky to me. In any case, that army should be composed of Mounted Warriors, not of swords :)

This was found in our gmail inbox. We really need to get our act together like right now. If Octavian X doesn't pick up the negotiations then we need to designate an ambassador (other than me) and get things going.


Greeting Team Doughnut

We here at team MIA have seen your sails off our coast for a number of turns now and apart from the initial Hail we have heard nought from your vessel ...

This is somewhat confusing and alarming ...

Please drop anchor and talk ... you will find our welcome to be warm and entertaining ... we are eager to hear all about your culture and your adventures at sea ...

Hopefully this will mark the beginning of a long and mutual friendship

Feaurius III
Foreign Minister MIA

roit! lets just go over there and show ourselves from our best side, it's no sign of weakness. This is just creating some kind of tension between us thats not really there.

I would volunteer if Octavian doesnt show up today. I dont want to step on his toes but we need some things worked out and need information to work them out. I'll send this with any revisions the team deems necessary in 6 hours.

Draft proposal: I dont think it gives away anything, but speak up if it does. We can still say we changed our minds if we dont want a partnership.

"Hail the Great Civilization MIA!

The Doughnutian people would like to extend an invitation to be research and trade partners and would like a friendship pact with the Greek people. A coalition between the MIAs and Doughnuts would be feared by any and all other people in the world.

We propose to sign a treaty between our two peoples to solidify a partnership if this is mutually desireable. We seem to be a bit ahead of your nation in research, but a partnership could benefit us both with your military might. Any such treaty would have to include information exchange on tech paths and ability, maps, etc. to speed each of our civs into a new age. Non-aggression pacts and war plans are all negotiable.

What is your current research path? We may be able to help further you along immediately by gift or exchange.

We feel that the closer we work together, the further along we will be in relation to any and all other nations in the world. Let us open up a new era in our nation's history!"

We're not REALLY going to gift them anything like writing or whatever, we'll just see what they say.

This was found in our gmail inbox. We really need to get our act together like right now. If Octavian X doesn't pick up the negotiations then we need to designate an ambassador (other than me) and get things going.

Originally Posted by MIA
Greeting Team Doughnut

We here at team MIA have seen your sails off our coast for a number of turns now and apart from the initial Hail we have heard nought from your vessel ...

This is somewhat confusing and alarming ...

Please drop anchor and talk ... you will find our welcome to be warm and entertaining ... we are eager to hear all about your culture and your adventures at sea ...

Hopefully this will mark the beginning of a long and mutual friendship

Feaurius III
Foreign Minister MIA



Looks like the gloves are coming off :lol:. "confusing and alarming"? Because of a single curragh? Don't make me laugh.
They are of course eager to sign a deal, because they know that the value of their two techs (BW and IW) will drop as soon as we contact Persia or perhaps even Celts, while writing is likely a monopoly. Perhaps they have found one of the other civs and want to do a 2-fer, who knows. In any case, time is on our side...

How about this for a reply:


Hail Team M.I.A!

Patience, friends! Our carrier pigeons have to fly all the way back to Doughnutia for instructions, and that takes a long while. We must say that we are puzzled by your confusion and alarm. Surely the great nation of M.I.A. does not feel threatened by a single curragh?

On behalf of the Supreme Doughnut I can tell you that our nation is interested in trading techs, Please let us know if you are willing to trade, and what you would have available.

May this be the start of a fruitful friendship that will bring our two nations happiness and glory!

Signed,

Tony Twofeathers
Captain of the Purple Peacock

I like the more entertaining version for a current message, and the more serious one for a 2nd message. Overall we're interested in trading if they have anything of value, and if the trades are roughly equal. However can we name the ship something doughnut related? How about "Curragh - Old Fashioned Munchkin" as the in-game name, and "Munchkin 1" as the roleplay name? (To fill in those who live outside the Dunkin Doughnuts sphere of influence, a Munchkin(TM) is made from the chunk of dough which is removed from the center of a doughnut).

Some more intel:
We're pretty close, enough so that I at least was thinking about the furs on "their" land just across the straight as being an area we could colonize. I must play on too many large maps. ;) From the looks of their borders, they have chosen to settle towards the west from their starting location.

Zyxy's message works well. Any objection to me sending it?

I had also considered the furs "ours" and at least a medium priority for us. The only drawback is it will be tough to defend if the Greeks arent our buddies.

I dont have a preference on renaming.

Feel free to change as needed. Munchkin sounds good.

The following message has been sent via email to their FA minister and by PM to their UN rep.

Hail Team M.I.A!

Patience, friends! Our carrier pigeons have to fly all the way back to
Doughnutia for instructions, and that takes a long while. We must say
that we are puzzled by your confusion and alarm. Surely the great
nation of M.I.A. does not feel threatened by a single curragh?

On behalf of the Supreme Doughnut I can tell you that our nation is
interested in trading techs and more, Please let us know if you are
willing to trade, and what you would have available.

May this be the start of a fruitful friendship that will bring our two
nations happiness and glory!

Signed,

Killercane
Envoy from the Great Ship Munchkin

sounds good, now we need someone to conduct negotiations, if octavian doesn't, then i think killercane should. If a deal is reached will it be voted on first before formal acceptance?

Received an email from Emperor Napoleon of MIA, and briefly chatted with him on MSN about nonspecific generalities. They are really interested in trade and a "strong friendship." I sent him the second email to discuss with MIA. I dont think they have met anyone.

Received an email from Emperor Napoleon of MIA, and briefly chatted with him on MSN about nonspecific generalities. They are really interested in trade and a "strong friendship." I sent him the second email to discuss with MIA. I dont think they have met anyone.

I'm sure they would be, after all they don't have an attacking uu and would be happy to get any advantage they can

I think we need to push for them to be the last civ we attack. We dont want to war with them as well anytime soon, so its a win win situation. We have the only horse UU in the game, and I see us taking on Greece with cavs, but if we can do it sooner then by all means a 25%knight/75% MW army would do the trick.

They are going to be really pressed to maximize their mixed army; if I were them, sword, cat, and hoplite stacks would be the AA army, but at some point they would need to switch to horse production. We need to keep them in war if possible if they are on another continent so they cannot stockpile troops. There has to be a diplomatic way to do that when we come to it.

Just some ramblings.

compelety agree killercane, i think they are very happy to see us, given a choice between facing mounted warriors, gallic swordman and immortals i know which one i would choose. The other reason i see that they would be happy to trade is so they can maximise their scientific trait, as it they wolud see it as a triple win in their eyes.
1. If we trade with them then then minimise the risk war with us
2. By having a tech partner, they can co-op on reseach and take the advantage that persia/celts have with their uu.
3. They probably figure that by the medieval times they can out research us with their sceintific trait.

But this has benefits for us too, as it will also take us out of reach of the gallics/immortals and more towards our mounted warriors as we can upgrade them cheaply where as persia/celts cant.

On a side note i would be surprised if we are the only one out there exploring, it maybe that we were the only one to go that way, which if true would be a useful tool we can use to our advantage.

I would guess that Greece is in it for the long run. Their UU is aimed at keeping them out of harms way throughout the AA and early MA, and their civ traits become powerful only later in the game. They could easily be the most dangerous civ to leave alive. Anyway, it's too early to tell....

It's in our best interest, I think, to play friendly with MIA. We're not even completely sure our continent is connected to theirs, and I wouldn't be suprised if an amphibious assault was necessary.

We should keep our polite faces on, and work with them closely - for the time being, and with a good knife hidden behind our banks. If Doughnutia is to survive, we need to use MIA to strengthen our position technologically (through a research alliance, possibly). It is also imperative that we scout out the coast and determine whether or not our landmasses are locally connected - if we share a single island with MIA, it may even be to our advantage to ally ourselves with them permanently.

Heres the transcript of the convo tonight with Emperor Napoleon, Casey J would be me:

HSL Armando says:
that deal is nagotiable
casey j says:
bronze and IW for pottery and writing. I doubt anyone will do that but I'll take that offer back to the people of doughnutia.
casey j says:
You would have to throw in your free MA tech probably for my people to take that.
HSL Armando says:
MA?
casey j says:
middle age
HSL Armando says:
hmm
HSL Armando says:
let me ask my goverment
casey j says:
we would be willing to share our research path and things of that nature if we dedicate ourselves to a close relationship
HSL Armando says:
now that is interesting
HSL Armando says:
as in, we share all techs?
HSL Armando says:
and cordinate reserch?
casey j says:
yes and yes
casey j says:
rid the planet of the other two before we inevitably betray each other
HSL Armando says:
interstings
HSL Armando says:
tell me, what techs do you have other than BW, IW, WC
casey j says:
writing
casey j says:
and perhaps more
casey j says:
we have had writing for some time
casey j says:
ill give you that tidbit
HSL Armando says:
what else, I need to have a little bit of info to propose this
casey j says:
I cant tell you, thats up to a vote of the people. But I can tell you that the two of us are probably the strongest researchers in the game based on what we know.
HSL Armando says:
hmm
HSL Armando says:
that's ok, I respect democracy
HSL Armando says:
let me talk with my goverment
casey j says:
everything is negotiable this early in the game. We can build a strong friendship.
HSL Armando says:
o yes!
casey j says:
whats your take on everything? We cant trade maps until navigation under the rules I think
HSL Armando says:
indeed
HSL Armando says:
I am talking around about this
HSL Armando says:
My goverment will have to talk about this
HSL Armando says:
can we come back to you on Saterday let's say?
casey j says:
the earlier the better. If you can decide on some things and draft something before then just email it to our team mailbox
HSL Armando says:
o yes, if we get a deal going, we will let you know sooner, but could you find out if you can tell s what techs you have other than the ones I said
casey j says:
sure.
HSL Armando says:
we wanna make sure that we just aren't giving away everything for nothing, you know

casey j says:
absolutely.

And then we'll talk later etc.

Sorry its so long, but I figured everyone would want to know whats up with them and perhaps you would be able to read into what is going on with them. I have no idea how he convinced himself that we had BW, IW, and Warrior Code, since he proposed the Bronze+Iron deal for writing and pottery thing to us. Probably just a mistype on his part, but who knows. They already figured we had writing; if I gave anything important away please tell me!

My thoughts are that they grabbed Warrior Code for insurance against an AA landing to screw up their golden age and said to hell with writing. I doubt they know the Celts since they want pottery, but knowing Persia is a possibility if they have Iron Working (could have traded for alpha). The plot thickens.

We need to encourage a war between MIA and someone, otherwise they'll shoot ahead during the MA and beyond.

Sending a SOD into the unknown to the North is a gamble, but one I'd be willing to take.

great job killer, by the sound of it he is more or less ready to sign on the dotted line, especially when you said we were willing to have a tech partnership with them, i could virtual see his eyes light up!

Heres the transcript of the convo tonight with Emperor Napoleon, Casey J would be me:

HSL Armando says:
that deal is nagotiable
casey j says:
bronze and IW for pottery and writing. I doubt anyone will do that but I'll take that offer back to the people of doughnutia.
casey j says:
You would have to throw in your free MA tech probably for my people to take that.
HSL Armando says:
MA?
casey j says:
middle age
HSL Armando says:
hmm
HSL Armando says:
let me ask my goverment
casey j says:
we would be willing to share our research path and things of that nature if we dedicate ourselves to a close relationship
HSL Armando says:
now that is interesting
HSL Armando says:
as in, we share all techs?
HSL Armando says:
and cordinate reserch?
casey j says:
yes and yes
casey j says:
rid the planet of the other two before we inevitably betray each other
HSL Armando says:
interstings
HSL Armando says:
tell me, what techs do you have other than BW, IW, WC
casey j says:
writing
casey j says:
and perhaps more
casey j says:
we have had writing for some time
casey j says:
ill give you that tidbit
HSL Armando says:
what else, I need to have a little bit of info to propose this
casey j says:
I cant tell you, thats up to a vote of the people. But I can tell you that the two of us are probably the strongest researchers in the game based on what we know.
HSL Armando says:
hmm
HSL Armando says:
that's ok, I respect democracy
HSL Armando says:
let me talk with my goverment
casey j says:
everything is negotiable this early in the game. We can build a strong friendship.
HSL Armando says:
o yes!
casey j says:
whats your take on everything? We cant trade maps until navigation under the rules I think
HSL Armando says:
indeed
HSL Armando says:
I am talking around about this
HSL Armando says:
My goverment will have to talk about this
HSL Armando says:
can we come back to you on Saterday let's say?
casey j says:
the earlier the better. If you can decide on some things and draft something before then just email it to our team mailbox
HSL Armando says:
o yes, if we get a deal going, we will let you know sooner, but could you find out if you can tell s what techs you have other than the ones I said
casey j says:
sure.
HSL Armando says:
we wanna make sure that we just aren't giving away everything for nothing, you know

casey j says:
absolutely.

And then we'll talk later etc.

Sorry its so long, but I figured everyone would want to know whats up with them and perhaps you would be able to read into what is going on with them. I have no idea how he convinced himself that we had BW, IW, and Warrior Code, since he proposed the Bronze+Iron deal for writing and pottery thing to us. Probably just a mistype on his part, but who knows. They already figured we had writing; if I gave anything important away please tell me!

My thoughts are that they grabbed Warrior Code for insurance against an AA landing to screw up their golden age and said to hell with writing. I doubt they know the Celts since they want pottery, but knowing Persia is a possibility if they have Iron Working (could have traded for alpha). The plot thickens.

Thanks for the transcript! Did they confirm that they have IW and WC? I see that we confirmed that we have writing (but if they're smart, they'll know it anyway, so no harm done). In the last save that I have (EDIT: this should have read 2600BC, or turn 30), WC is still full price so they don't have it.

EDIT: the save for turn 31 (2560BC) shows they have it now. They must have learnt it this very turn.

Obviously, writing + pottery for bw+iw is a very, very bad deal for us. In that deal the techs we give are more expensive than the techs they give. Moreover, BW and IW will be known to the entire world, while writing is still a monopoly. We should probably point out to them that we can trade those techs with the other two if we like (or research them on the cheap). Obviously we don't tell them who we have met. It's not even allowed, perhaps.
Even writing for BW+IW isn't such a good deal. In short, good move to tell them we'll want their free MA tech for writing. It's obviously preposterous, but it will teach them not to ask for the sky.

As a compromise (between their opening bid and killercane's reply), we could propose the deal writing for bw+iw+wc. If they refuse (likely), we could possibly throw in pottery. WC is somewhat useful to us, as it's nobody's starting tech, and we'll need it for horses eventually.

I don't see why we should tell them what techs we have. I don't understand his comment about giving everything for nothing, tech trades are not about equalizing the two nations but about equal and fair trade.

I don't think they have the idea that we have BW+IW+WC. He knows we don't have those, F6 will tell him. He wants to know which of the other techs we have.