Kentharu says:
You are whomp correct?
Whomp says:
Hey Kentharu
Kentharu says:
hey
Whomp says:
Do you think we can talk in the morning. Bede will be in the conversation and can meet early or later in the evening tomorrow
Kentharu says:
Tomorrow is great... dont know about in the morning cause i don't wake up to early
Whomp says:
who will be joining from your team?
Kentharu says:
well no one really im the rep so, and our foreign minister is alseep i think
Whomp says:
fe3333au?
Kentharu says:
yes thats him
Whomp says:
he will be present tomorrow later maybe?
Kentharu says:
most likely
Kentharu says:
Is Bede a rep. for your team also?
Whomp says:
Yes we may have a few
Whomp says:
just you and fe?
Kentharu says:
yes
Whomp says:
can we fix a specific time?
Kentharu says:
of course
Kentharu says:
i would have to talk it over with fe first but yes
Whomp says:
Hmmm...
Whomp says:
He is usually in here early but you're asleep.
Kentharu says:
I will be up around 10 or so
Whomp says:
10 EST?
Kentharu says:
yes
Kentharu says:
are you on EST?
Whomp says:
ok how does 10:30 work as long as you can talk to Fe first. I am in Chicago. CST.
Whomp says:
Bede is EST
Kentharu says:
that should work as long as i can work it out with Fe
Kentharu says:
i dont think there will be any problem
Whomp says:
Shouldn't be. If he is not do you want to set a contingency time?
Kentharu says:
12 pm will do fine by me but it is up to you
Kentharu says:
whatever is convenient for you
Whomp says:
couple issues. He works and I've got a birthday dinner later tomorrow.
Whomp says:
The world depends on us!
Kentharu says:
lol indeed it does, i don't have much, except school
Kentharu says:
and tomorrow is no school
Kentharu says:
one thing i want to get out of the way, are we on the same continent?
Whomp says:
right so get up early
Kentharu says:
i assume we are since we made contact via a warrior
Whomp says:
have you guys played the save?
Kentharu says:
we have the save and fe gave me a screen shot
Whomp says:
did you see our warrior?
Kentharu says:
yes
Whomp says:
Do you know how long it takes to get galleys?
Whomp says:
Yes we are on the same continent. Why?
Whomp says:
The Celts don't know how to sail our warriors around the world yet.
Kentharu says:
i just wanted to make sure, i dont like assuming this
Kentharu says:
this=things
Whomp says:
No probs. We will be happy to answer all your questions tomorrow. 10:30 then?
Kentharu says:
10:30 it is
Whomp says:
done and done. Get some sleep we have a lot to talk about!
Kentharu says:
indeed we do
Whomp says:
G'Night.

:lol:

Can you say "cluleless"?, boys and girls, sure you can, I know you can

I think we should march in there signing the anthem from Mr Rogers' Neighborhood!

Well, y'know, maps arn't so far away and we might have a nice starting location with 21 tiles o gold and a worker on meth + Average Joe could have disguised himself as a palace and made a jump...you never know when you start assuming things=this :D

Bede be gentle. We want this guy to stick around a while. If you make him look like an idiot, they'll fire him. OK, if you make him look like too much of an idiot.

Gentle I shall be, mon freres, this is only for internal combustion (consumption?).

Friends forever, or until 40 GS appear on the border.

I'll try to be there but might not be able to get IM where I will be by then. Wouldn't want to miss this clash of diplo giants, he, he.

Here is the dialog if anyone is bored

Basically we are getting IW & Alpha for CB, WC, & 1gpt for 20 turns

Dialog (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/meeting.zip)

Hehe... Happy Birthday Whomp :D

Should this be the "Happy birthday, Whomp!" thread?
[party]:bday:[party]

I just notested that you were born in the same year as my father ;)

:bday: [party]

And we're getting IW, eh? Should prove useful.

Thank you all! My gal gave me a birthday cake today that said Happy 13th Birthday Love Bug. :blush: +30! :lol:

I would like to take this opportunity,especially after today's diplo session, to say our teenagers Pentium, IP and Own ROCK! :band: I wouldn't trade you in for Steam power!!

I think most of your elder teammates would concur with me. Thanks again!

Just read the log and it's obvious Kenth didn't get the big picture. He got corrected on the pacing on writing research and did a complete turnaround. I suggest we demand someone else at the table next time around. Nappy looks a decent guy so he should be our man. I think we should state this clearly as a demand to be met before we even sit @ the table. The guy didn't have a clue but tried be a tough one. Bad show.

I would strongly recommend that we'd prefer to have Rambuchan as our ambassador. He is a good guy and I think SW can attest to that. They can talk jivespeak too. Maybe we should make this a MIA specfic thread.

Basically we are getting IW & Alpha for CB, WC, & 1gpt for 20 turns
:rotfl: good job team :thumbsup:

I read the log. Very good job! It surely didn't sound like they had any long-range plans...just very limited objectives. I'm glad we gave more latitude for decision making to our reps.

Hey, Whomp!! A very Happy Birthday to you!!! :bday: [party] :clap:

(Everyone needs to go back and read that transcript of the negotiations. If you have already done it, do it again. Try not to look at who's name is there, just look at the conversation.)

OK three things. First, they look like idiots, but we don't look a whole lot better. No more than three people doing the negotiating. We had Whomp and Bede going very well and then a bunch of other people jump in. That is just plain silly gents! When you guys jumped in you broke the flow of the negotiations. It is OK to go and watch and listen, but you can pipe up in the middle of the conversation. That was one of the reasons Kenthu was getting confused.

Second, next time we go into a negotiating session we need to have a plan and some goals.

Third, we need to make a long range plan on who is going to research what.

BTW - you guys really did well. We just need a more united front to the other side. I like the fact that you got us researching writing instead of them.

First, they look like idiots, but we don't look a whole lot better. No more than three people doing the negotiating. We had Whomp and Bede going very well and then a bunch of other people jump in. That is just plain silly gents! When you guys jumped in you broke the flow of the negotiations. It is OK to go and watch and listen, but you can pipe up in the middle of the conversation. That was one of the reasons Kenthu was getting confused.
The negotiation took 3 hours and Bede had to leave 2 hours into it... I 'll agree with you Bugs that it didn't go as well as expected but we had to negotiate as a team because people had to drop out occasionally due to RL. We did have points of clarity especially when Emp Killyouall stepped in on their side that we shut up and let Whomp do the talking. I think the problem was that their representative didn't have power to do anything except talk.

Second, next time we go into a negotiating session we need to have a plan and some goals. Also, we had goals this time. It just turns out that they didn't have writing as expected.

Third, we need to make a long range plan on who is going to research what.We would have tried to make long-term plans but they didn't seem to want to. "Small pieces make a larger puzzle." What the heck?

I was talking to Whomp last night via IM & we were trying to figure out why in the world don't these people value granaries. It boggled me that they would rather get WC than Pots even though they both had the same beaker value. :crazyeye:

We had Whomp and Bede going very well and then a bunch of other people jump in.


What you can't see from the log is that Bede had to leave at that point. I do agree that too many people were talking after that, but it's relatively easy to see how people would get a little frustrated after a couple of hours of talking with no progress. All in all that session took closer to 4 hours I think.

But in the future I'd strictly stick to that 2 people talking from each side. I have some 10 years of experience from this kind of communication over the internet and in my experience it's just about impossible to follow a discussion with more than 4 active participants. It just branches to too many directions all the time.


Second, next time we go into a negotiating session we need to have a plan and some goals.


I totally agree. However, next time it's hopefully going to be a little easier because we also somewhat know where they stand. I think it would be also be beneficial to exchange some preliminary proposals in advance. Especially when it appears that their team's rep had been given fairly strict set of parameters to negotiate with.

But in the future I'd strictly stick to that 2 people talking from each side. I have some 10 years of experience from this kind of communication over the internet and in my experience it's just about impossible to follow a discussion with more than 4 active participants. It just branches to too many directions all the time.
I agree with this. It might be useful to put into writing our vision of a format, such as 2 speaking reps (with or without non-speaking observers), since, at some point, we may also need to negotiate by IM with Dnuts and TNT. That way observers could come and go as they wish without disrupting the flow, having the understanding in place that there would be no need for greetings, etc.

I've not used MSN much and I'm unfamiliar with what can be done on it, but I have used Yahoo quite a bit. On Yahoo it's possible to set up a separate chat for "interested parties" where issues that need further discussion can be c&p'd, discussed, and the results taken back to the main chat. It's my impression that MIA may have been doing something of that sort for their rep to get add'l advice. I'm not sure if that would be useful for us or just more confusing, and I trust our reps to have decision-making power. I only mention it as an alternative.

We did have a second chat open. The entire conversation was copied & Pasted over until I realized that everyone in our "conference room" was also in the room with MIA. So we stopped copying it over. I wish I had saved that thread too. Oh well.

We did have a second chat open.
Wish I'd known. I really wanted to be "a fly on the wall", but I was afraid to join the main negotiation for fear of just confusing things. I often fear I'm the least knowledgable team member, both about PBEMs and game strategy itself.

Maybe next time some info could be posted for us "flies"??? :D

If you don't have MSN messager, go ahead and install it.. The next diplo, we'll have another Team KISS (TK) conference room. Hopefully it won't take 4 hours again. :suicide:

The 2 diplomats will be in the diplo room with a scribe. I believe that Chamnix was MIA's scribe. Some of their members have AOL & no MSN.

If you don't have MSN messager, go ahead and install it.. The next diplo, we'll have another Team KISS (TK) conference room. Hopefully it won't take 4 hours again. :suicide:
I have it, but I rarely use it. I updated it over the weekend for "just in case". I'm (surprise) gmaharriet@hotmail.com. My Yahoo ID is just gmaharriet. ;) I never leave either one up and running unless I know in advance I'll be IM'd...it used to drive me crazy to be interrupted 25 times an evening for "Whatcha doing?" messages. :lol:

Make yourself "away" or "busy" then don't respond when people send you those messages.

My 2 cents
As part of the in-jumpers I may have confused things and, if that was the case, I am sorry for that. All in all we got a fair deal and did well but were way to slow, that goes for both sides. Suggestions made about how to do this more effectivly seems good. Fewer participants and drafts can be easily arranged. Concerning the goals, that is harder. They were reluctant to speak about such except for "everybody wants peace w everyone". Maybe us both knowing the other team has the ultimate long term goal of winning complicates things a bit.
I suggest Bugs and Pent start working on a research plan and post it here whenever ready. I agree it's a vital part of the whole pic.

I have edited out some of the conversation about “stuff” but here's my conversation with Rambuchan today. Some good progress and I think we should prepare our letter for Fe333au today and forward it on. Daghie do you want to send it? Word to the Whomp [pimp]. Well I didn't edit that because I want to show you Ram's positive communication skills.
Well it turns out we have met in the MTDG. It would be nice if you could be our liasion. I was a little disappointed we could only consumate a short term deal after 4 hours on IM, partly my fault for bringing some of my teammates into the conversation. I think you and I could communicate better. If you are interested in doing this, of course.

Let me know your thoughts.
Well what with the move, no broadband hooked up in my new place, lots of work to do, my new 'living schedule' etc I've found it quite hard to get back into the Demo game. I'm trying but I've got shiit loads to do this week.

I noted that we've made contact and I'd love to get involved but all those things above are getting in the way atm. Plus I am a total multi-player noob. I'm really just spectating and making humorous inputs, with the odd inspired piece of advice here and there.

I hope to get more involved but it would just be irresponsible for me to volunteer for anything like that right now. Maybe next week you will see more of me on that front.

Peace out!

Sounds good on the MIA front. We had some difficulty disusssing things with Kentharu and felt so much more comfortable when Emp. Napoleon joined in. It shouldn't have been so difficult but there was a sense of distrust when speaking with Kentharu and some of my teammates got out of hand and have apoligized in our forum.

I think we'd prefer another person and have drafted a nice letter we plan to send to Fe3333au. Take your time getting in on everything because we hope to make this a long lasting relationship.
Talk to you later.
I'm not aware of any wrong words, so this is news to me.

fe33 and also General W seem to be the good folk to talk with in our team. Both very dedicated to the game and reasonable.

I will work on catching up on all the detail in good time.


Some players on my team starting getting hot and I had to shut them up. They did not like dealing Kentharu who couldn't even return a few pm's to establish a meeting or accomodate times because he needed to sleep till 10:30 am. Then he gave us the feeling he had no capability to be a decision maker after 4 hours of conversation. Not my idea of a good time.

This is why I'd prefer to deal with you, Emp. Nap., Fe3333au, Chamnix or General W. It's fine if Kentharu wants to be involved but honestly there was no reason this should have run 4 hours for a very small picture deal. I'm not trying to hurt his feelings and I don't want to stir anything up with him but hopefully we can, delicately, request another person. My .02.I see where you are coming from Bernster. All those four guys you mention should have been doing it. I don't even know from which rock this Kentharu character crawled out from. Is it acceptable for me to share your sentiments with the team in our private forum so that we can get this change of diplomat happening? I don't want to make him feel bad. Especially when dealing with two guys who were given carte blanche to make team decisions. I made the mistake, when Bede left, of adding some of my teammates to the conversation. We've already discussed this and it won't happen again.

I think we would like to send our letter first to Fe3333au and maybe you can give him a heads up. I have no problem having Kentharu involved but would prefer if he is secondary in the conversations.

I think both teams should put together their perception of life together before our next discussion. Which I'd like to see happen sooner than later. From our perspective we've hardly touched the surface.

How does that sound? With that said, I think that it would be valuable for Kentharu (and our young players for that matter) to be able to see the negotiation process develop. There are valuable life lessons that can be learned through this game we love. Compromise, asking questions and handling objections are what make the diplomacy aspect so interesting IMO. I don’t see any harm if he’s secondary in this process. Just my .02.

Assuming that we won't make the sling, I included the Republic in the costs.

Feel free to play

Here is the excel spread sheet. Just put a 1 in the column on either side to get that tech added to a team's total.

One other thing of note, some tech costs will lower once the other continent is known.

I read the transcript yesterday (as was obvious from my previous post in this thread)... it may not have gone smooth, but it was pretty much new territory for everyone involved.

My remarks:
- As was suggested, the 'audience' should keep quiet. 2 diplomats is the max.

- Having a plan before the meeting is nice, but you can never count on MIA in going along with it. They seem to have some odd research priorities as it is. The objective is simple: any deal that will save us money is desirable as long as they do not get too much out of it. Now trying to determine what deals satisfy this criterium is very difficult... the diplomats should have a firm grip on the game, know our priorities, and be backed up by number crunchers. If we are going to share the beakers in the AA, things are simpler fortunately.

- I got the strange feeling that these guys are lying about their contacts. What prompted this most is them claiming to research writing so easily. It seems to me that they seem to be able to get a deal with someone else. They were also very eager to know whether we had made any other contacts.

- The deal we struck was the best we could do, I'm sure. Still, we gave out a monopoly tech. Granted, monopolies aren't as big a deal as when playing the AI, but if they contacted the other continent...

Here are my random thoughts as an observer and (unfortunate) participant in the negotiations...

1) Make sure that MIA has a decision maker at the table. Or, failing that, we KNOW what thier process is and the time-frame it will involve.

2) SET A TIME LIMIT!!! I think that part of the problem was a difference of approach. Everyone was interested in 'playing the game,' saying flowery things, talking in subtle and oblique terms. Unfortunately, it didn't work as well with MIA. The negotiations seemed to go better when things were more clearly (bluntly) stated.

A time limit (no more than 90 min. MAX) may help focus everyone's thoughts.

3) As has been said, no more than two negotiators. I would hope a time limit would help facilitate that. I also have to apologize for jumping in. It was just like a bad movie, you know when you scream at the screen. Unfortunately, this time I COULD type. It was cathartic, just not helpful.

4) It looks like we are moving this way, but I wonder if both teams could have appointed ambasadors? I'm not sure how it would work precisely, just a thought...

I promise to sit mute next time. I have other venues to vent my spleen ;)

I have edited out some of the conversation about “stuff” but here's my conversation with Rambuchan today. Some good progress and I think we should prepare our letter for Fe333au today and forward it on. Daghie do you want to send it? I will PM fe33 the note revised by Brother Bede.

Just got done reading it. It was all over the place, but it was, like Crackie said, "new territory for everyone involved".

I agree with the 2 diplomats per side at a time. At some points, Kentharu seemed to be by himself, negotiating with 3 or more of us. I can't blame him for being intimidated.

There is something strange about them, though. Even though it was mentioned several times that we have no contacts besides them (and we COULDN'T have any, without Alpha), they kept asking. Perhaps they don't trust us? We do have an offensive Civ by nature, we do have WC already, and you guys did mention that we believe the best defense is a strong offense.

About joining the next session, I'd like to, but unless it's on the weekend, I doubt I could be there very long. My hotmail address is: nintendo_is_king@hotmail.com

And I have to say, I :lol: at this section:
Whomp says:
and what are the repurcussions if we get beat to the sling?
Kentharu says:
i would say sorry

I agree with the 2 diplomats per side at a time. At some points, Kentharu seemed to be by himself, negotiating with 3 or more of us. I can't blame him for being intimidated.
I'm getting a bit confused. The number of diplos has been mentioned in more than one thread, and I can never find the post(s) later.

I'd agree with 2 diplos per side, plus a scribe who is to be silent except for c&ping any of us who may be in a separate chat. Just possibly we might want to include a 4th as an advisor (Tubby) who can provide numbers when required and requested, but most conversation should be limited to 2 on each side.

I think there should be a 3rd diplo available (in the separate room) as an alternate if the primary ones are unavailable, and all three should be authorized to commit to deals or to specify that it would need to be taken to the entire team for a vote.

Whether or not "silent" observers should be allowed in the main negotiation, I have no preference except that they be required to remain silent and all greetings be surpressed. This should be a point agreed upon by both sides prior to the start of a negotiation session. It might also speed things along.

Another thing which might facilitate the negotiations would be a mutually agreeable written agenda, which could be covered point by point, with an "other topics" as the last item.

Hmmmm, do you guys have any idea how MUCH I hate long meetings, like at the office? :hmm:

I think all of this should be in a written "policy" form to be used by us, regardless of with which team we may be dealing.

Harriet - Excellent idea about a meeting policy. I have a quote on my wall at work. It's from Dave Barry's Sixteen Things it Took me Fifty Years to Learn.

2. If you had to identify, in one word, the reason why the human race
has not achieved, and never will achieve, its full potential, that word would be
"meetings."

I'm am going to immediately email that quote to myself at my work email. It SHALL be posted on my wall tomorrow!!! Thank you. :goodjob:

I have included an attatchment that, I think, should be the motto of our diplomatic corp (as demonstrated by our recent negotiations).

If you like that, check out despair.com or http://www.despair.com/indem.html#viewall
for the full collection of their "Demotivators."

Unfortunately, they don't match the decore of my workplace... :sad:

I love those despair posters. As a quality professional, I have the one with the leaning tower of Pisa next to my meetings quote. Mediocrity - it takes a lot less time and most people won't notice the difference until its too late.

Good morning Ladies and Gents. Spat out my :coffee: @ despair.com. The slacker generations vault of wisdom. Thanks Kick :thumbsup:

Here's one that fits our team too..

@Tubby
What a coincidence :rotfl:. Idiots "think" alike :hmm:
'nother thing byw. How do figure MIA would respond if we gifted them your excellent spreadsheet on research, just as a hint. Like, "Here's a gift from the Celts. Could be used for work as well as play. Have fun"

Yeah that would be fine. They could return another idea. That was just my first stab at it

You could send it as a token of co-op between our tribes research dept's? Maybe they would appreciate the gesture after the hard words @ the meeting. If you feel that would be like licking up, then don't. You know I believe your frustation was justified.

MIA has sent us this via gmail requesting us to put our "mark" on it. Hang on while I lower my zipper. :lol:

Isn't giving us Iron Works a nice gesture? Bit premature ´thou. Should we make a laugh about it and ask them if they really want to give us Iron Works? Otherwise it looks fine. You do the confirmation Tubby.
Edit: Actually, in the noble language Swedish, kiss means just that :D

I've selected a team logo out of the logo thread and here it is. I'm also going to send them the spreadsheet minus the part at the bottom for wheter or not we get a good deal ;)

Here is my reply via gmailHail Great Division of Red Tape,

Attached is the said document with the KISS logo affixed. Our numbers department came up with an easy to use spreadsheet that will aid in determining equitable tech costs of our 2 great nations during this most Ancient of Ages. Simply scribe a 1 on the side that should research a technology and then that tech's cost will be added to that teams total. Current in the spreadsheet is the first attempt by the Celtic people (we are assuming that the Republic slingshot won't happen - worst case scenario).

Commendations,

KISS

Well done you Idiot

Hey that's my cowpirate avatar!! The flag isn't waving though. :D

BTW I think we should all put this in our signature like Daghie. If the shoe fits wear it.

NEVER UNDERESTIMATE THE POWER OF STUPID PEOPLE IN LARGE GROUPS

I'm with you Whomp!

Unfortunately, they don't match the decore of my workplace... :sad:I just got this!!!! That's great booti. I could imagine one of these posters up where you work :lol:. It would be a hit!!

@TR - Trust me, there are days I want the 'Dysfunction: The only consistent feature in all of your dissatisfying relationships is you.' poster behind my desk chair, just for a visual as people talk to me... :D

PM from Kentharu

Amended Version
This Ancient Age Alliance between K.I.S.S. and M.I.A. consists of the following binding agreement:
Both teams agree to
- be allied until MIA and K.I.S.S are both out of the ancient age, and to act in cooperation and to pledge absolutely NO military aggression against the other.
- Prioritize trade of technologies within the alliance - until M.I.A. and K.I.S.S are both out of the ancient age.
- Prioritize the trade of luxuries within the alliance (when possible, due to extra sources) until MIA and K.I.S.S are both out of the ancient age.
- Prioritize the trade of strategic resources within the alliance, if needed, (when possible, due to extra sources) until M.I.A. and K.I.S.S are both out of the ancient age.

We pledge our two peoples to peace and cooperation.

However, while trust is still being built, no gifting will take place. Instead, trades will may be made.

As the Alliance agreement dictates both teams will prioritize trades with the other, orchestrate research, and offer the first-trade opportunity to the other.

And so, as this agreement commences, we look forward to a profitable future for all our citizens, that, with all intentions, will continue to be profitable for all even beyond the Ancient Age.

I hope your great nation will agree with this as we are very excited to begin such a great alliance with such a great nation

And our IM conversation....
Kentharu says:
hi
Whomp says:
hey what's happenin
Kentharu says:
not much, just got home
Whomp says:
me too
Kentharu says:
we need to schedule another meeting
Whomp says:
awesome outside
Whomp says:
ok
Whomp says:
what are your team's thoughts?
Whomp says:
So what did you guys think of our proposal?
Whomp says:
Can you talk about it?
Kentharu says:
not a lot but yes
Kentharu says:
we are, how to put it
Kentharu says:
we are looking it over a lot
Whomp says:
makes sense from the successful pbems I've seen.
Whomp says:
logistics, roads, etc
Kentharu says:
yes
Kentharu says:
but we should schedule a meeting for all of this talk
Kentharu says:
yes?
Whomp says:
My team trusts me so if you want to bring others in now that would be fine.
Kentharu says:
alright one moment, ill check with the others

Kentharu says:
well i dont think many people are here right now
Whomp says:
not many from my team either.
Whomp says:
Do you guys have concerns I can address or would you prefer to counteroffer?
yes we do, perhaps i should simply give you the amended proposal
Kentharu says:
shall i put it on here or pm it to you
Kentharu says:
dunno if it would fit
Whomp says:
I would pm it.
Kentharu says:
righto
Whomp says:
I will post it for us to discuss.
Kentharu says:
ok, im putting the original for you guys to compare
Kentharu says:
or whatever
Do you guys have concerns I can address or would you prefer to counteroffer?
Kentharu says:
yes we do, perhaps i should simply give you the amended proposal
Kentharu says:
shall i put it on here or pm it to you
Kentharu says:
dunno if it would fit
Whomp says:
I would pm it.
Kentharu says:
righto
Whomp says:
I will post it for us to discuss.
Kentharu says:
ok, im putting the original for you guys to compare
Kentharu says:
or whatever
Whomp says:
Are you emailing or pm'ing?
Kentharu says:
pming
Kentharu says:
it be there soon
Whomp says:
cool
Kentharu says:
just putting some final touches on the amended proposal
Whomp says:
ok
Kentharu says:
alright just sent it
Whomp says:
be right back
Kentharu says:
k
Whomp says:
i'll post it
Kentharu says:
did you read through it?
Whomp says:
yep
Kentharu says:
i would also like to add that even though the deal expires at the Ancient Age my team still looks forward to having future alliances
Whomp says:
I understand.
Kentharu says:
good
Whomp says:
out of curiousit ywhy so short term?
Kentharu says:
my teammates believe that it is to soon to tie both our hands so securely, we would rather gain trust instead of blindly falling into it
Kentharu says:
we expect the same from you as well
Kentharu says:
you understand of course
Whomp says:
doesn't have quite the depth and opportunity speaking for myself
Whomp says:
there's a lot we can gain from each other but now it will be more limited. That's a bit disappointing to me. Of course my teammates may have a different view.
Kentharu says:
please do not think that we do not intend to have future alliances
Kentharu says:
we look forward to it, but this early in the game, when expansion is still going on
Kentharu says:
you understand yes?
Whomp says:
sorry I'm just thinking..
Kentharu says:
there is no rush
Whomp says:
I understand your view.
Kentharu says:
may i know yours?
Whomp says:
I guess my thoughts are that we have more potential to help each other by being on the same continent. I'd think both of us would still trade with the other continent but with a more limited type of agreement. See there's a lot we can teach you and I'm sure you us. None of that will happen under your deal.
Kentharu says:
i understand but with the deal you propused and the deadline that you set, it was hard to come to a conclusion
Whomp says:
Do you need more time?
Kentharu says:
perhaps, but we have made our choice and it is on the table, as i said you are freee to amend it
Kentharu says:
it is completely up to you
Whomp says:
Indeed. I have posted your counter to our team.
Kentharu says:
good, then things are moving along smoothly?

Unity of the Troop in the Diversity of the Patrols! has been added to the conversation.

Unity of the Troop in the Diversity of the Patrols! has left the conversation.

Kentharu says:
well Emp was supose to be joining us
Whomp says:
OK.
Kentharu says:
to observe strictly

Unity of the Troop in the Diversity of the Patrols! has been added to the conversation.

Whomp says:
Is this Emp?
Unity of the Troop in the Diversity of the Patrols! says:
yes
Kentharu says:
yes
Whomp says:
What else should we discuss?
Kentharu says:
future plans i assume
Whomp says:
Such as the deal or other things?
Kentharu says:
yes
Whomp says:
both?
entharu says:
well anything you would like to propose
Kentharu says:
it will be easier to get it done here and now
Whomp says:
I think I would be more willing to discuss openly under a mutual exclusivity deal but the strategy changes under a AA deal. It's harder not be more secretive I guess. I think this seems a la carte so I wouldn't even know where to start.
Unity of the Troop in the Diversity of the Patrols! says:
AA deal?
Whomp says:
Through the ancient age
Kentharu says:
i see
Whomp says:
I see full disclosure benefiting both of us
Whomp says:
borders are easier to defend
Whomp says:
Resources and luxes may not even be available till then and sea routes can be treacherous.
Kentharu says:
true
Whomp says:
I've found that in PBEM's that long term friendships are a winning formula but I can understand your concerns.
Whomp says:
I'm confident we can work under your agreement but I will have to discuss this with the team.
Kentharu says:
so am i, but i also must discuss it with my team
Whomp says:
which your or ours?
Kentharu says:
both our teams
Kentharu says:
as one unit we can conquer TNT and Doughnut
Kentharu says:
and as one continental power as well
Whomp says:
There is always the possibility of 3 working on 1 and renegotiating after 1 is finished.
Kentharu says:
indeed
Whomp says:
Have you scouted the players on the other teams?

Kentharu has left the conversation.

Whomp says:
Emp. did we lose him?
Unity of the Troop in the Diversity of the Patrols! says:
I think so
Unity of the Troop in the Diversity of the Patrols! says:
anyways, I can take his place
Whomp says:
What are your thoughts?
Unity of the Troop in the Diversity of the Patrols! says:
on the alliance? I like it
Whomp says:
long term or ancient age?
Unity of the Troop in the Diversity of the Patrols! says:
the AA, which we proposed
Unity of the Troop in the Diversity of the Patrols! says:
after all, we can renagotiate
Unity of the Troop in the Diversity of the Patrols! says:
you?
Whomp says:
Yes we can. The only thing is it doesn't allow for each of us to be quite as open. Maybe a deal that could be turned after a certain number of turns would be more palitiable. I'm just throwing things out for consideration.
Whomp says:
turned off...sorry
Whomp says:
Yours is easier to work with because it doesn't required the same degree of trust however it does change strategy for both of us.
Emp. Napoleon says:
yes
Whomp says:
Yes it's easier or yes it changes strategy or both?
Emp. Napoleon says:
chage stratage
Whomp says:
OK well are there things you would like to discuss in addition to the proposal? Are you interested in pottery?
Whomp says:
may I invite Adm. Kutzov in?
Emp. Napoleon says:
yes
Emp. Napoleon says:
sorry, parents
Emp. Napoleon says:
Ken had to go eat (the joys of parents) and I am looking for his notes

skippy has been added to the conversation.

Whomp says:
AK you there?
Emp. Napoleon says:
yea sure, what are you intested in for pttery?
Emp. Napoleon says:
pottery
Whomp says:
We
Whomp says:
We've calculated beakers and think we can give you pottery for wheel when you finish.
Emp. Napoleon says:
let me go look up the costs

skippy has left the conversation.

Tubby Rower has been added to the conversation.

Whomp says:
Tubs?
Whomp says:
I have MIA on the line.
Tubby Rower says:
yeah what's up
Tubby Rower says:
Hi emp
Whomp says:
I've posted their proposal which would run through the end of the AA.
Emp. Napoleon says:
hey

skippy is already part of this conversation.

Tubby Rower says:
yeah I saw it and commented on it.

skippy has been added to the conversation.

Tubby Rower says:
have you read those comments?
Whomp says:
AK we have MIA on
skippy says:
igor is now in the building after techno difficulties. reading now. moving the lips slows things down
Whomp says:
lol
Whomp says:
Emp. I will only allow 3 on at a time.
Emp. Napoleon says:
lol, may I ask why?
Tubby Rower says:
so we won't gangbang you
Emp. Napoleon says:
lol ok
Tubby Rower says:
(nah)
Whomp says:
Too many cooks in the kitchen
Emp. Napoleon says:
ok, well remind me of the whole tech deal we had, I can't find Ken's notes
Whomp says:
Tubs you've got issues
Tubby Rower says:
the original one we did in the 4 hour marathon?
Emp. Napoleon says:
o yes!
Tubby Rower says:
IW (3 turns) & Alpha for CB, WC, & 1gpt
Whomp says:
and now the question is would you be interested in pottery for something.
Whomp says:
Emp. Tubby sent you our tech spreadsheet. have you seen it?
Emp. Napoleon says:
no
Emp. Napoleon says:
e mail emperornapoloen@netscape.net
Tubby Rower says:
it should be in your gmail inbox
Emp. Napoleon says:
I don't have accses to that
Tubby Rower says:
does everyone on your team have access?
Tubby Rower says:
nvrming
skippy says:
the naval contingent intends to ask blunt questions
Tubby Rower says:
it's better than sharp pointed ones
Whomp says:
would you like to ask me on the side first?
Emp. Napoleon says:
I am talking with my goverment right now
skippy says:
lol, igor's not that drunk
Tubby Rower says:
can I send you the spreadsheet Emp?
Emp. Napoleon says:
yes please
Whomp says:
Emp have you scounted the other teams?
Whomp says:
scouted?
Emp. Napoleon says:
scounted?
Emp. Napoleon says:
o
Tubby Rower says:
Ok I sent the file via IM
Emp. Napoleon says:
thanks
Emp. Napoleon says:
now, wheel is 120, pottery is 60
Emp. Napoleon says:
what do the ones mean on this sheet?
Tubby Rower says:
it is the remianing techs of the AA.
Tubby Rower says:
You can divide them up between our two nations
Tubby Rower says:
Emp, are you (or anyone on your team) familiar with a settler pump?
Emp. Napoleon says:
I'm not into game mechanics like that, I only do diplomancy
Tubby Rower says:
Basically,
Tubby Rower says:
you get 30 shields & 20 food in 4 turns
Tubby Rower says:
with the granary, that gives you a settler every 4 turns
Tubby Rower says:
that's why we felt that Pottery was so much more valuable than what the program allocates to it
Emp. Napoleon says:
but there is also a question of if we can use it right now
Tubby Rower says:
We have one up and running
Emp. Napoleon says:
cool
Tubby Rower says:
Has anyone on your team suggested such a strategy?
Emp. Napoleon says:
I don't know, I dont get involved in that stuff on my team
Emp. Napoleon says:
but I will bring the deal back to the goverment
Tubby Rower says:
what deal?
Emp. Napoleon says:
you do raise a good point, and I will discuss it with the proper athorities
Emp. Napoleon says:
wheel for pottery
Tubby Rower says:
10-4. We can assist in setting up a proper settler pump as well
Emp. Napoleon says:
how will you do that?
Tubby Rower says:
We can guide MIA in improving the correct tiles
skippy says:
the knowledge of the pump is worth more than the knowledge of pottery, what will u offer
Tubby Rower says:
It will really depend on how much you guys are willing to share.
Emp. Napoleon says:
That's a nice offer, but we have proffesonals here whose job it is to do this
Tubby Rower says:
ok
Tubby Rower says:
just helping out our neighbor
Emp. Napoleon says:
thanks
Whomp says:
Emp. this is the kind of thing I think we would be more readily giving on with a mutual exclusive type deal.
Tubby Rower says:
shared resources/luxes and such
Whomp says:
emphasis on such
Emp. Napoleon says:
well, we cannot trade resources/lux right now, we will cross that bridge when we come to it; as for right now, tech deals will be what we will be doing, unless you have anything else you would like to trade
Whomp says:
maps?
Tubby Rower says:
In our mind a great deal would be to share any extra resource, lux, AND tech with MIA throughout the AA
Tubby Rower says:
roads to each other's capital would be worked on between the two team
Emp. Napoleon says:
we could talk about that
Tubby Rower says:
ok we laid our cards out....
Whomp says:
I think we can discuss text maps and we do have some very valuable information in that regard.
Emp. Napoleon says:
text maps?
Tubby Rower says:
directions to certain items
Tubby Rower says:
treasure maps, basically
Emp. Napoleon says:
o yes, we can talk about thqat
Whomp says:
Unfortuantely Under your proposal there is a cost.
Emp. Napoleon says:
cost?
Whomp says:
it's not free
Tubby Rower says:
under our proposal these things are freely given
Emp. Napoleon says:
sorry, I just pulled up a copy of the treaty, I'm not that familiar with it
Emp. Napoleon says:
but we will cross that bridge when we come to it, but a road between ournations will be nice
Emp. Napoleon says:
we can talk about it another time
Tubby Rower says:
you gotta go?
Emp. Napoleon says:
well, I mean, if this is it
Emp. Napoleon says:
you guys go talk about our treaty counterproposal, and I bring back this trade
skippy says:
please reiterate the proposal so we're all clear
Tubby Rower says:
Emp, Can you relay to your people what we are willing to offer if our original proposal is accepted?
Tubby Rower says:
I think that we can help each other share the world.
Emp. Napoleon says:
ok, type exacly what you want me to say about what you were willong to offer
skippy says:
type exacly what you want me to say about what you were willong to offer
Whomp says:
Emp. there's always the possibility of a third relationship in our mutual exclusive arrangement where we propose to gang up on someone.
Whomp says:
give it some thought.
Emp. Napoleon says:
now that changes things
Emp. Napoleon says:
I will make sure my goverment knows that
Tubby Rower says:
really
Whomp says:
interesting
Tubby Rower says:
I'd think that a 3-way deal is less desirable than a 2-way deal
Tubby Rower says:
I'd be willing to do either though
Whomp says:
I do too but I think we can agree to renegotiate after TNT Is toast
Emp. Napoleon says:
TNT is at war?
Tubby Rower says:
maybe
Tubby Rower says:
I have to bow out. It was a pleasure talking to you again, Emperor
Emp. Napoleon says:
likewise

Tubby Rower has left the conversation.

Emp. Napoleon says:
anyways, anything else?
skippy says:
nite nite
Emp. Napoleon says:
farwell
Whomp says:
No we will talk soon Emp. G'night.

So it sounds more like no military action against each other until end of AA. Correct? I guess that is better than a declaration of war. And it will allow an alliance with another team instead of being married to MIA the whole time.

I guess it will work. I'm just concerned it will turn into a who has the most beakers contest.

Sorry about the TNT comment. I thought I was typing it into the other conversation. Nice recovery Tubs.

To me, this game just got a lot less interesting... the AA will be boring and given the pace of this game, that will be a long time :( I do not want to sound bitter, but where exactly did we give up on mass warrior -> GS upgrades and heated debates on Republic vs Monarchy? To me it feels like we never properly discussed that.

Nice work Whomp, Tubs, et.al.

Langston Hughes comes to mind "Hope deferred makes the heart sick."

I had great hopes for an alliance with MIA, but at this point I think AA detente will have to do.

Use them as we can, and look for allies on the other continent.

Race for writting and Philosopy. See what the situation is, but maybe we would use the free tech for Mapmaking so that we can get the Admiral his "Great Grape Fleet" and be a more effective international partner.

(I humbly suggest the Admiral name naval units after his purported favorite passtime, e.g. Anarchist State Ship Inebriate, Bender, Pie-Eyed, etc.)

As far as I am concerned, we don't need the wheel anytime soon. Our GS give us mobile units in the AA, so don't trade pottery cheaply (if at all).

Do MIA no harm, but definately do NOTHING to help them grow. I'm afraid that if they are this obtuse this early, an alliance with them would be nothing but greif.

They don't trust us, and now I don't trust them (either their intentions OR their capability).

As far as I'm concerned, our loyalties are back on the market. Let the bidding begin!

They don't trust us, and now I don't trust them (either their intentions OR their capability).

As far as I'm concerned, our loyalties are back on the market. Let the bidding begin!
I agree with this. We were being open and offering a great opportunity to them and they pretty much just blew us off. I thought you guys sounded very professional and they came off as just immature. It's their loss now!

My thinking is that the gaps btween continent has just become a lot more valuable and that Captain Curragh's fleet will play an important role in this new scenario. I would very much like us to be in ctrl of these "bridges" to be the ones in charge of Greek trade overseas. Building cities at the gaps and /or have ships just lying there would be nice. If MIA steps out of line we can then cut their trades. If they're nice and cute we can let them do some shopping for as long as we wish. They could ask us to move blocking ships but that would come with a price.

I agree with Daghie. We will need a strong navy. I would use two pumps for this. One with a harbor and one without. The one without can act as the transport galleys and the harbor city can act as our battle galleys.

We may suggest to MIA that researching monarchy may be required under their scenario, strategically speaking of course. Crakie is also correct we need an opportunity for warrior upgrades.

Hmm, I like that sea route blocking idea. We'd need like 3 ships to block it, probably. Otherwise they could just go around us.

The save's in, btw. Did the Admiral want to play it to try out the new sailing vessels?

Tubby's instructions on in the Dept. of Turnplay so everything is ready for the turn.

AK want to smash the champagne of beers on that new ship?

To me, this game just got a lot less interesting... the AA will be boring and given the pace of this game, that will be a long time. I do not want to sound bitter, but where exactly did we give up on mass warrior -> GS upgrades and heated debates on Republic vs Monarchy? To me it feels like we never properly discussed that.

Oops, I missed what's underneath the spoiler brackets in Whomp's post... everyone got so enthusiastic about that MIA-AA deal that I assumed it was on. But it's not! Yay! We're back on track for a lively AA!




Do MIA no harm, but definately do NOTHING to help them grow. I'm afraid that if they are this obtuse this early, an alliance with them would be nothing but greif.

They don't trust us, and now I don't trust them (either their intentions OR their capability).

As far as I'm concerned, our loyalties are back on the market. Let the bidding begin!

Couple of points:

- MIA shouldn't be allowed to lag behind too much... we need them in the tech race with the other continent. We need to walk a thin line in indeed not making them too strong, nor rendering them useless.

- As for trust, I did not trust them in the first place :D Besides, I'd rather conquer them than fight overseas.

- And as for our loyalties being on the market... I think signing a long term agreement with an overseas partner makes MUCH more sense. I am very happy with these turn of events.

Maybe scenario 1 is back on track? Be semi-hunky dory with MIA through AA, strike a deal with one of opponents overseas to help each other clean continent the go after MIA at end of AA or in early MA. This would be most satisfying as a "thanks for having us through AA, now we don't wanna have you".
As far as whom to hook up with on other cont. I'd say we lay low for a while. If they start quarreling, one of them will come running for an alliance. If we're top dogs here they may be more willing to join us than MIA saying "let's help out in clearing our respective continent". Best we can do now is to grow, grow and then grow some, make fair enough deals around the place and build military. Again, a strong fleet could facilitate buissness.
This will be interesting times :D

I'm with Dagh: grow, grow, grow.

Grab the dyes, grab the insence, concnetrate on the core, scout the continent and readjust as geography makes desirable. I'd love to have a second settler pump up and running soon; let's outbreed the greeks.

I understand what Crakie is saying about not letting MIA get too small, but IF we control the world's only source of dyes, and IF we can grab another resource or two for trade, we may be able to exchange for techs with the other continent and not worry about tech agreements with MIA.

I know that is speculative, so I'm not banking on it.

I can't tell if MIA is overly cautious but genuine, or unreliable and duplicitous. Therefore I assume the latter.

Go along to get along, trust but verify, [insert other folksy wisdom here], and build the Great Grape Fleet for exploration.

not enough time, not enough familiarity with the protocols to actually trust I wouldn't invoke the wrath of provo. :rotfl:

On the other hand, Emp Napoleon and crew are marks to be taken advantage of for as long as possible.

The one thing I am dead set on is that we research philo. those fools would choose Lit.

I think signing a long term agreement with an overseas partner makes MUCH more sense. I am very happy with these turn of events.

concur

Best we can do now is to grow, grow and then grow some, make fair enough deals around the place and build military

what really struck us in the conversation was Emp Nap's cluelessness on technical matters like the settler pump. Just letting him know we have one should have sent shivers up his spine, but he seemed blase. They don't realize what we've got.

I see thousand of little men with swords and red hair running around our continent, I digress :crazyeye:

what really struck us in the conversation was Emp Nap's cluelessness on technical matters like the settler pump He must've been lying about that to give the impression they are n00bs. Looking at the line up, they're not.

Ok. It looks like a buddy-buddy system with MIA is out of the question. A letter came in stating the "relative values" of all of the techs.

I'll post it in the Diplomatic Relations thread since I'm in the opinion that this thread should die out, ironically just like our relation with MIA has seemed to already. ;)

I'm in the opinion that this thread should die out,
I've been thinking that it might be well to include the date of a meeting next time we use it as a thread title. Every time I come into this forum, I wonder at first if it's the same meeting or if another one has been scheduled. :)