I think we should not build libraries at all, as we plan to have 0% research until Education. Libraries are only good for our beakers. We much rather replace libraries with wonders, workers and the needed military units, a couple of temples in contested areas and for happiness.

Has that been decided yet, Provolution? No, it has not. So now that you have decided to raise this issue, let's talk about it.

Libraries are the least expensive culture build we have right now, and we desperately need culture to keep our precious land from the hands of our rivals. That reason in itself is argument enough to build the Libraries.

When you add to this the fact that we can get Code of Laws in 17 turns with no Libraries, it only makes sense that these cultural buildings will only enhance our research time.

Besides what do we currently need gold for anyway? We cannot rush anything under our current government, so please answer this. We need to stay in science mode until we get to Republic (if that is the peoples wish), after which your point can actually be considered.

But let's hear what the people think. People of Fanatikos, do we really want to squander both our national borders and our tech lead in one fell swoop? If so, then the Provolution plan is for you.

I certainly hope that we do not choose to honor all of Aristotle's hard work by proposing that we rest on our laurels and live off the ingenuity of others. Let us take these great volumes and distribute them to the far reaches of our nation, so that all of our people can be enlightened.

Respectfully,

Donovan Zoi
President of Fanatikos

can some one tell me the cost and cultural values or a tempal verus a libery

Library is 40 shields for a Scientific civ (us) and provides 2 culture per turn, as well as 50% research increase.

Temple is 60 shields and provides 1 culture per turn.

If you plan to research mid-Middle Age techs with 5 cities and no libraries, good luck. When you go to 0% research, you CANNOT SKIMP on infrastructure.

Library is 40 shields for a Scientific civ (us) and provides 2 culture per turn, as well as 50% research increase.

Temple is 60 shields and provides 1 culture per turn.

This speaks for its self, of course the maintaince might be a factor aswell, and the happyness from tempels. Although we only have five why not both, why not everything

Ginger Ale, you should do better than underestimating me.

My proposal is the following:

Build 1-2 libraries, wait for GL to be built and let research be at 0 % until Gl is built.
Then max science to research Code of Laws and Republic, then become a Republic, other than that, max out on gold, build marketplaces, and time the construction of libraries to early medieval period, when there is about 20 turns before GL expires, and gather as much wealth as possible in that duration.

I thought we were buliding the Gl in one turn with our science leader

well, we need to complete Hoplite, then build the GL, that is two turns.

Ginger Ale, you should do better than underestimating me.

My proposal is the following:

Build 1-2 libraries, wait for GL to be built and let research be at 0 % until Gl is built.
Then max science to research Code of Laws and Republic, then become a Republic, other than that, max out on gold, build marketplaces, and time the construction of libraries to early medieval period, when there is about 20 turns before GL expires, and gather as much wealth as possible in that duration.

Provo,

You have contradicted yourself already. ;)

This is a far different scenario than "0% research until Education" and no "libraries at all." It is also a plan I can almost get behind, except for the library part.

One thing we need to be careful about: I think that we will need Marketplaces before we get to Republic, and for those to be maximized we really need to think about how we are going to get more than 2 luxuries. Other than that, I can see us toggling back and forth between 0% science (to build up gold) and 100% science (to reasearch at -gpt) if it makes sense to do so.

I think a library's cultural value is enough for them to be built in all 5 cities. We may not need their SCI needs in the near future, but we will need their culture needs and for shield-to-culture tradeoff, libraries come out ahead of temples.

Libaries for all cities! Marketplaces for all cities! We can't be rushing libraries and martketplaces last minute before we get Education, we need to prepare

No need to rush them last minute, we build them in good time some techs before education, no worries. I just want to optimize tech flows, and hopefully some people out there see that.

I think what we need to rush last minute is the gold. Until we are a Republic, we don't really have much use for gold. And even so, I plan to have these cities optimized to the point where we won't have to rush much. Upgrades will be the main use of our gold.

I think we should not build libraries at all, as we plan to have 0% research until Education. Libraries are only good for our beakers. We much rather replace libraries with wonders, workers and the needed military units, a couple of temples in contested areas and for happiness.

Build 1-2 libraries, wait for GL to be built and let research be at 0 % until Gl is built.

Aside from the quick contradiction in your words, nonsense!

NOW is the time to develop a solid cultural base, and Libraries will do that MUCH faster than temples and for less cost to boot! You would have us spend MORE time building "temples in contested areas" that will have half the effect of libraries in defending our cultural barriers?

We're not going to be able to keep much of our gold anyway - the greed of our neighbors will surely see to that. We must use that gold to trade and upgrade our units, to speed production when we can. Trying to hoard our gold like King Midas will surely lead to our failure, as hinted at in the tale of that King.

Build our infrastructure, build our culture and build our science foundation NOW. Let our citizens read and learn, so that when we have drained all knowledge we can from the fools beyond our borders we are poised for rapid growth. Don't let us be slowed by the lack of libraries!

-- Ravensfire

For everyone's information: a library gives three culture, a temple two.

Finally some facts, thank you Regent Man, I knew there were some fact oriented debate style here. good.

Question: who is in charge of deciding research speed and research goals? Could that honorable person please start a discussion on this very important subject?

Question2: why do we want culture buildings? just for expansion, or for a culture-type victory, or does somebody just want to be high priest or chief librarian? :)

More facts on libraries/temples:

library: 3 cpt, 1 gpt upkeep, 40 shields to build, 50% more research.
temple: 2 cpt, 1 gpt upkeep, 60 shields to build, 1 additional happy face (2 with Oracle - temporarily).

So: if we want some culture for expansion but no research (or if we want to be high priests), then temples might be interesting as they provide some benefit.
If we want a culture victory and/or do at least moderate research, then libraries are the best deal.

I agree zyxy all valid points. I hope TruckingPete may lead a discussion on how to explout the Great Library to a maximum, and how to handle libraries in that regard. I also agree that building libraries just for the sake of it is nonsensical, and is forcibly giving us an incentive to research more than we should, a hidden tech research clause of sorts.

Finally some facts, thank you Regent Man, I knew there were some fact oriented debate style here. good.
That's not really fair - debates are about opinions, not facts, and people are entitled to theirs. I think this has been a generally healthy debate so far, let's not let it disintegrate.

I'll throw my weight behind the libraries campaign - I agree, the culture is needed and they'll be useful for researching to Republic, etc.

We should still build libraries for a few reasons:

1 - Education = no more free research. It comes quicker in emperor. So, we also need to be prepared for an unexpected research of it by the AI. (i.e., we don't know when they'll research it)
2 - Once we do get to Education, we'll need to build universities, and we'll need to build libraries first.
3 - It gives us more culture, which we NEED to claim land.
4 - We can't survive on empty forever. Not when we only have 5 cities, plus some. Remember, this is a FIVE CITY CHALLENGE (and then some). That means we don't have the luxury of 100 cities with 200-300 scientists producing 600-900 beakers per turn.

We should still build libraries for a few reasons:

1 - Education = no more free research. It comes quicker in emperor. So, we also need to be prepared for an unexpected research of it by the AI. (i.e., we don't know when they'll research it)

But definitely after Theology. So we'll get a bit of advance warning. The point is whether to build libraries now or in, let's say, 40-50 turns.


4 - We can't survive on empty forever. Not when we only have 5 cities, plus some. Remember, this is a FIVE CITY CHALLENGE (and then some). That means we don't have the luxury of 100 cities with 200-300 scientists producing 600-900 beakers per turn.

It will be probably more like 7 or 8 City challenge, with some many opponents building cities right on our doorstep, but the point is valid still. Actually, this argument shows that perhaps in the long run trading for tech might be better than researching tech. This should actually be an important part of the discussion, I think.

I think going for GL, and not using it, is a self-contradictory strategy. Either we go for GL and trim down the tech slider, or go full throttle on tech research. I really do not like this lack of consistency. I also think we can trade for most of the techs. The GL is not that great either if we are not in it for the money. The Great Library is the loners wonder, the friendless wonder or Robinsons and Crusoes IQ Wonder. Great Library is supposed to handle the needs of libraries until Education, which is at least 50 turns away, possibly longer if the warprofiteering and division strategy works out.

Strategy proposals here have no head and tail. They say they want GL to get more money, then they want libraries, and then they say they want units, and we get less units with libraries, then they worry about 21 tile cities and to fill all 21 tiles, but then they reject solutions giving happiness for the city to get to 21 tiles and so on and so forth. I just see a focus on small "civ-professional" principles in the tactical level, not a holistic strategy.

I think going for GL, and not using it, is a self-contradictory strategy. Either we go for GL and trim down the tech slider, or go full throttle on tech research. I really do not like this lack of consistency. I also think we can trade for most of the techs. The GL is not that great either if we are not in it for the money. The Great Library is the loners wonder, the friendless wonder or Robinsons and Crusoes IQ Wonder. Great Library is supposed to handle the needs of libraries until Education, which is at least 50 turns away, possibly longer if the warprofiteering and division strategy works out.

Strategy proposals here have no head and tail. They say they want GL to get more money, then they want libraries, and then they say they want units, and we get less units with libraries, then they worry about 21 tile cities and to fill all 21 tiles, but then they reject solutions giving happiness for the city to get to 21 tiles and so on and so forth. I just see a focus on small "civ-professional" principles in the tactical level, not a holistic strategy.

The strategy is to get to Republic as quickly as possible, which could take up to 50 turns to research in itself. Having a Library in each city will help us shave some turns off that goal.

After that, I agree that it may be pretty sound policy to build up gold and let the AI research for us for the duration of the ancient age. We will have a use for the gold then. The point I think you are missing is that I don't plan to stay at 100% research all the way until Education; only until we acquire Republic.

Another idea I have been thinking about is running 20-30% luxuries once we get to Republic. This will allow us the happiness to maintain larger sizes until we can build Cathedrals. I am well aware of the need for growth in our cities; I built my campaign on it.

It will be probably more like 7 or 8 City challenge, with some many opponents building cities right on our doorstep, but the point is valid still. Actually, this argument shows that perhaps in the long run trading for tech might be better than researching tech. This should actually be an important part of the discussion, I think.

No, more like a 5 city challenge with 6 corrupt cities and maybe 1 good one. ;)

I feel we only need libraries in the Augean Stables and Civatonia. That way we're not paying maintanence on culture that we don't need. Foreign land won't be affected by a library in Priapos, after all.

I feel we only need libraries in the Augean Stables and Civatonia. That way we're not paying maintanence on culture that we don't need. Foreign land won't be affected by a library in Priapos, after all.

You forgot about Styx, which needs culture from the Library to access its outer resources. Also, it makes sense that our capital have a Library if all the outlying areas have one. Not to mention the boost in science.

As for the Library in Priapos, I am not even going to broach the topic with Governor Provolution until it is developed a bit more. And I may even pass on the opportunity once it is.

I'd build libraries in each city as soon as possible. The only more pressing need is a few more workers.

I actually suggest Colossus, for the long term financial gains, that will help us through to flight. We are talking tens of thousands of gold here, as most of the game is before flight.
I hink library should not be Priapos's goal, but to pay for the extravaganza shown by our citizens in a multiple threads. If you guys insist on library on all cities, I insist Priapos should get Colossus and then a marketplace, and thus fund our slider.

With a Republic, all units above 5 is paid in gold.

Ah, forgot about Styx's cows. A library there too.

Well, I picked a position against libraries just for the sake of argument, and I am glad many of you ate the bait. Good fun. I will add library after that hoplite for Priapos.