Emperor Napoleon and some governmental members of MIA are set to talk on Saturday at 10 pm Eastern Standard Time (GMT -5). We need to vote on:

1) What we are willing to tell them.
2) What we want out of an alliance. Right of refusals on tech trading to other teams, military assistance, research splitting, I mean everything. What do we want/need to make us stronger?
3) Perhaps some other things that are suggested in this thread.

Feel free to attend, though the time kind of sucks for some people. It will be in the Turnchat thread (I have no idea where that is).

Is your idea to make deals in this chat, or to reach proposed deals which will then be discussed/voted on in the fora before finalizing?

1) Definitely not where we are, whether we share an island or not, what we are researching now, who we have met, and where we plan to go with research - on the last thing, you can always say things like "we're still discussing it". It's not even a lie. We can tell them we have writing and pottery, and we can tell them that we want cooperation and friendship. If they really press for information, we could act angry and say something like "Our policies are not determined by you."

2) We could have some nonagression pact (or whatever it's called). It would involve a peace deal for a fixed term (perhaps 40-50 turns is good for us - we won't be ready for war on anyone anytime sooner anyway), and an agreement not to enter each others borders, except with curraghs on exploration (not blockading). Other kinds of entry is casus belli. We don't really profit from it maybe, although it is some security against a bunch of tough hoplites suddenly dropping on our beaches. I guess that we will not need to bring it up, they probably will.
I do not want agreements limiting trades with other civs. We simply don't know enough yet, and there's too much advantage to be had there. If they get contacts and use them, tough. It's very difficult to check whether the other side sticks to such an agreement anyway.
Do not set fixed boundaries between our civs - if they want to, we can say "it's too early to tell what would be fair. We don't have enough map knowledge yet". They may propose we each keep our on island, while we may want their furs.
Military assistance is tricky. It would only be for defensive wars, of course, but how do you know it's defensive? And it might be against the (spirit of) the rules to make war on a civ you haven't met yet. In any case, the point is moot until we have Map Making (but we don't need to tell them that, of course).
Research splitting sounds good. We can suggest it, or wait for them to do it, they might like it. We should keep our priorities straight though - we should definitely research the wheel ourselves, not depend on their research there (they might stall, or suddenly refuse to tell).
EDIT: to me, this still means that techs are traded on equal basis. Also, we somehow have to divide techs but not tell them exactly what we will research. I think that after they unconditionally agree to split research, we can tell them that we plan to go to republic and horse back riding. We can ask them to go to literature and currency - they probably want to get literature anyway.

3) Possible trade deal right now: BW+IW+WC for writing, or for writing+pottery as "final offer". It's a good deal for both as I argued in the other thread.

I will probably not attend. I would strong advise that only one person from our side (killercane) does the talking, otherwise we can be played apart. Perhaps open a second chatroom for our team only, where we can discuss among ourselves.

All deals will be voted on. I was hoping to have an idea of things I could use to negotiate with and have a clear picture of what we want.

I think we want a non aggression pact for as long as they are willing to give us. It will protect our flank from sneak attack, and the longer we have peaceful relations the stronger we will be compared to Greece (Agr=more ICS scientists which I think will outweigh their scientific trait).

They probably dont know about the furs on their island yet.

How do we want to divide up research? Top path: Masonry, Math, Currency, COnstruction, MM or CoL, Lit

Bottom path: CB, myst, poly, wheel, WC if they dont have it, and HBR
+Republic somehow.

Edit: I changed the title of this thread since it could show that we know MIA from the forum front page.

All deals will be voted on. I was hoping to have an idea of things I could use to negotiate with and have a clear picture of what we want.

Ok, that's good to know. Of course it's good to know what we want, otherwise we'll end up doing what Greece wants :).

I think we want a non aggression pact for as long as they are willing to give us. It will protect our flank from sneak attack, and the longer we have peaceful relations the stronger we will be compared to Greece (Agr=more ICS scientists which I think will outweigh their scientific trait).

Perhaps. It's more specialists vs free techs + cheaper science improvs + more chance of SGL's. Hard to say.
I don't see us attacking Greece anytime soon, but it's best not to close off the option forever.

They probably dont know about the furs on their island yet. let's hope :D.

How do we want to divide up research? Top path: Masonry, Math, Currency, COnstruction, MM or CoL, Lit

Bottom path: CB, myst, poly, wheel, WC if they dont have it, and HBR
+Republic somehow.

I would prefer not to research masonry or CB yet, as these techs are known to one of the two civs we haven't met. Their price will go down when we do - hopefully soon. Quite possibly the same is true for Math, Myst and perhaps even currency. For the moment these techs can be avoided. Best is if we can persuade greece to do masonry -> math -> currency, perhaps after lit. In the mean time we can go to wheel and republic. As a gesture of goodwill, we can hint at a trade of col for lit.

Edit: I changed the title of this thread since it could show that we know MIA from the forum front page.

Can the other teams see that? :eek: I truly hope not.

I would prefer not to research masonry or CB yet, as these techs are known to one of the two civs we haven't met.
Well, of course, but we need to outline primary responsibilities between the two of us. If Persia won't trade masonry or wants writing or something for it, we/they might want to just research it at a discount. CB shouldnt be a problem to get via trade.

I don't see us attacking Greece anytime soon, but it's best not to close off the option forever.
I was thinking Turn 125 was a good number to shoot for, with a caveat that each of was would have to let the other know within 10 turns of ending the deal. I.e., if we clear out our island and decide to attack Greece, we would say at turn 115 that we are not renewing the deal.

Can the other teams see that? I truly hope not.
Dont think so, but I was just wanting to be careful.

Edit: I changed the title of this thread since it could show that we know MIA from the forum front page.

You changed the 1st post title, but not the thread title. A mod can probably change the thread title but you would have to just say "change this thread's title" in the needed things and have them refer to the contents of the thread.

Also, it's not visible from the main page. When you don't have visibility to a subforum, the subforum's last thread does not show in the higher forum's page. It would have to be this way, otherwise everyone can see the mod's latest post in the "staff only" forum, which we know is not visible. ;)

Thanks Dave, good to know.

I think from your earlier conversation with the mia killer was along the right lines, and if you continue that way it should be good. When you have reached an agreement then you take it back to us for a vote to make it official, i'm sure they will do the same. As far as giving them location details, i don't think you can do that even if you want to until navigation i think, because we can trade maps before then. Same with communications with other civs, not trades are allowed until printing press(i think). All in all if you just stick to trade of techs and organising tech research you should be fine. Finally as far as the joint reaseach goes, dividing it top half bottom half is fine, as long as the numbers are even and put in a clause that techs will still be traded 1 for 1, so if they fall behind we are not going to give them more then they give us.

edit- also as part of that clause, if they fall behind too far then we have a right to end the agreement.

We can't trade "maps" which in the ISDG was interpreted to be images of the land, exact tile counts, etc. If we want to (which I'm not advocating of course) we could talk about general directions, different landmass, etc.

My opinion is that "map knowledge" even in vague terms is way too sensitive to even hint about. They know our curragh came from the east and departed their lands to the west, and that's all they need to know.

BTW, MIA has requested a delay on sending the save, possibly until our scheduled negotiations, though obviously they did not reveal why.

[Sorry for yet another long rant.]

The more I think about it, the less I am in favor of trading with Greece. Let me try to analyze the situation.

Greece has BW, IW and WC to offer. Although we will need those techs eventually, we don't need them now. We are not under threat, so no need for military techs yet. Probably Greece is separated from us by water, so they cannot reach us until Map Making. We haven't seen the others yet - it is not impossible that they will be on continents of their own as well, or too far away to hurt us anytime soon. Our research goals also do not require these techs for the next 50 turns or so.

As killercane said, we are likely to meet Persia and Celts within 20 turns or so. I think it is very probable that these two have BW and IW, as it enables their UU (Persia surely has BW). That means that the value of these techs will drop considerably as we meet these guys.

We have writing and pottery to offer. I am convinced that writing is still a monopoly. It is likely to remain a monopoly for quite some time - if I were Persia I would research Math and Currency before Writing. Celts would perhaps do Myst -> Poly to get some monopolies as well. Pottery is cheap but enables granaries, very useful early on, but I don't think Greece will pay a premium for this tech and trade it for BW or WC.

Now let's look at Greece. Most important observation is that their research has nowhere to go! The only nonmonopoly tech that they can research is the Wheel - and they would do us a great favor by researching that. They desperately need writing to get access to the important stuff - republic, map making, literature. In particular Literature will give them cheap libs and the opportunity to surge ahead. If they don't get writing, they will have to either shut off research, or help us by researching something like Masonry or CB. (Even if they do writing, they are helping us by throwing money away).

If we trade writing to Greece, then whoever finds the other civs first can make a splash. If we don't, then we are the ones to make a splash. My vision is that we should try to use writing, col and philo to trade for the other AA techs, and use republic to trade for the free MA techs of Greece and Persia (and perhaps to Celts for an alliance). The only drawbacks would be that

Greece might decide to research writing, and might find the other two civs first. Then we may end up getting nothing for writing. Still, philo and col should give us some trading power, so not all is lost in that case. I think it will be at least 15 turns before Greece gets writing (it costs 204 gold for them), so this should be a rather minimal risk.
Greece won't like us so much for not trading. Of course we don't say that we don't want to trade. We can for a while stall them, by taking a long time for forum discussion and polling, pretend we have various factions holding each other in deadlock, and by making offers unacceptable to them - killercane's about them giving us their free MA tech in exchange for writing is a good one.
We can even use this to our advantage, for example saying that some of our citizens are entertaining a "writing for masonry and warrior code" deal - perhaps it would steer them in their research :).
Still, relations could turn sour, and this IMO is the worst drawback in the long run. We can try to prevent it by proposing deals involving pottery but not writing - still stalling to the max of course. Hopefully we can stall until we meet the other guys.

good plan zyxy

I have these comments so far to work off of:

All in all if you just stick to trade of techs and organising tech research you should be fine. Finally as far as the joint reaseach goes, dividing it top half bottom half is fine, as long as the numbers are even and put in a clause that techs will still be traded 1 for 1, so if they fall behind we are not going to give them more then they give us.
edit- also as part of that clause, if they fall behind too far then we have a right to end the agreement.
we could talk about general directions, different landmass, etc.
giving us their free MA tech in exchange for writing
Hopefully we can stall until we meet the other guys.

They want to exchange research paths and want to know what we have beyond writing. I am inclined to tell them in exchange for information from them and to solidify a relationship with them. They surely realize we have taken the philo route.
-Do we want a nonaggression pact?
-Do we want to trade wines for ivory straight up?
-Do we want to trade for their MA tech for sure?
-I dont really want to get involved in trading any map knowledge (theres a fine line between legal and nonlegal in this area), and judging from Dave's and others' comments Im not going to put that on the table. If they really press us and can give something else up for it, I'll put that to a vote.

They've stopped and wanted time for something, so it seems they are eager to deal. And the beauty is that we dont have to. Hopefully we can use that to our advantage.

They want to exchange research paths and want to know what we have beyond writing. I am inclined to tell them in exchange for information from them and to solidify a relationship with them. They surely realize we have taken the philo route.

I find that a bit of a risk. If you want to propose your republic plan, then is it smart if they know that we are already working on philo? I really don't know, I guess I am more suspicious than you are...

-Do we want a nonaggression pact? yes, why not. 50 turns or so seems fine. Or ask them what term they would like.
-Do we want to trade wines for ivory straight up?do we have two wines? I must have missed that. [EDIT: yes we do, but still outside our borders.] Anyway, we cannot trade yet - there is no connection. For the far future, why not. We do not know whether a harbor would be needed, and it is better not to tell them yet (can always say that a road would be very long and a harbor would be easiest).
-Do we want to trade for their MA tech for sure?for republic? pls see my reply in the other thread.
-I dont really want to get involved in trading any map knowledge (theres a fine line between legal and nonlegal in this area), and judging from Dave's and others' comments Im not going to put that on the table. If they really press us and can give something else up for it, I'll put that to a vote.we're not allowed to. They can more or less guess where we live, anyway.

They've stopped and wanted time for something, so it seems they are eager to deal. And the beauty is that we dont have to. Hopefully we can use that to our advantage.Why not ask them why they stopped? Just as smalltalk. Is it in our honor?

These negotiations crack me up. I'll ask Emp Napoleon for permission to be sure that I can post them.

Well im still in favour of some trade, but maybe thats just my peaceful nature. Still we are in the box seat in the negotiations, so i don't think we should rush into any deals. If we can organise a co-op on research, we can still try for some tech swaps and then hold talks in the future about other possiblities, like resources ect.

I'm curious about something, where is this chat being held? I can't find info on it anywhere...

Heres the convo, for what its worth. This is the longest post ever BTW. Im tired and hitting the bed but I'll throw out some thoughts tomorrow. We had a mixup on the time and place of the chat (my fault) but the whole thing didnt go anywhere. I apologize for posting all of this, but I would rather post it all and no one read it then have something missed by not posting it.

casey j says:
the way we see it is we are not looking for a fight with you, and would rather work together against the other two
Emp. Napoleon says:
something liek that
Emp. Napoleon says:
(if you wanna invote your goverment, I don't mind)
casey j says:
I put up a message, no one is attending. They put forth their thoughts and wishes, and if we can get an agreement together we'll vote and get it done. I have a pretty good feel for what everyone wants though so voting shouldnt be an issue (just in case you need to move on something right away, since the save is delayed for I assume this meeting)
Emp. Napoleon says:
well, we were in the market for techs
casey j says:
alright you want writing and thats all?
Emp. Napoleon says:
well, pretty much any techs, but writing is one of them
casey j says:
the other one is pottery that you are after? dont have that settler factory running just yet?
Emp. Napoleon says:
well, pottery is another possiblity
casey j says:
the way we figure it is, writing is pretty damn expensive, and putting that out there for only IW, bronze, and warrior code is probably not going to happen. We dont want any 2 fers with other civs and want to keep either everyone backward or everyone outside of a Greco-Iro alliance backward
casey j says:
but we are always willing to listen to ideas
casey j says:
I figure we can be the dominant two powers in the game if we want to be
Emp. Napoleon says:
2 fers?
casey j says:
2 fer: say you get writing and know Persia who knows Math, and you trade writing for math. You would get 2 techs for one tech because as the middleman because we dont know persia
Emp. Napoleon says:
I see
Emp. Napoleon says:
but once we both know Persia, let's say, we can set up some things to benifet the two of us
casey j says:
Yes
Emp. Napoleon says:
how about IW and Wheel for Writing
casey j says:
Probably not. Wheel is naturally important to us, but we can get it quickly via research. Iron is a priority for every civ but us.
Emp. Napoleon says:
well tech cost wise you will make out
Emp. Napoleon says:
and do you already have IW?
casey j says:
certainly we would, but writing opens up a lot of possibilities
casey j says:
for you
Emp. Napoleon says:
and would bring much trust to our nations
casey j says:
Trust between our nations would begin with a pact outlining a tech agreement.
casey j says:
Our information indicates we could make a formidable alliance. Would you be willing to sign a non-aggression pact spanning to turn 100 or so?
Emp. Napoleon says:
well, we are not that interested in a full on ulta-tech alliance, but a non agression pact could be considered
Emp. Napoleon says:
right now, we just wanna trade techs/money for techs/money
Emp. Napoleon says:
how about this: V - Non-Agression Agreement
Neither nation shall attack any unit of the other nation.

Neither nation shall pillage the improvements of the other without prior
approval.

Neither nation shall intentionally block the movement of the other.
Emp. Napoleon says:
that's from an old APO-CFC treaty back in MSDG
casey j says:
So the offer on the table is BW, IW, Warrior Code, and the Wheel for Writing?
Emp. Napoleon says:
o no
casey j says:
We do have a monopoly on writing
Emp. Napoleon says:
I don't know
Emp. Napoleon says:
wheel and IW for writing, e may be able to toss in some gold
casey j says:
how much
Emp. Napoleon says:
a lump sum, let's say 10
Emp. Napoleon says:
but I havent approved this with my goverment yet, so we are jsut talking right now
casey j says:
absolutely this is just talking to get a feel for each other. We have writing at monopoly. That opens up Mapmaking, CoL, Philo, Lit, and ultimately Republic. Its a crucial tech that the others cant research right away. We are intent on keeping it close to our vest.
casey j says:
but an offer we cant refuse? well I have a good feel for what we would take for it. We really dont want to drop a warrior stack by your hoplite defended cities to give you a despotic golden age
casey j says:
we would rather work together
Emp. Napoleon says:
o yes, I think we would too
Emp. Napoleon says:
are you slinging?
casey j says:
well now thats a loaded question. I'm allowed to give information in exchange for information.
Emp. Napoleon says:
ok, as of now, we are not
casey j says:
we realize that, since you just got warrior code recently
casey j says:
now if we could work up a republic plan that woudl benefit both of us, that would be great
casey j says:
your plans do include a republican government rather than a monarchy correct?
Emp. Napoleon says:
I cant say, no one from my goverment is on, but let's assume so for now
casey j says:
ok what would be the quickest way for both of us to get there?
casey j says:
assuming we have a tech agreement
Emp. Napoleon says:
well, I don't think we have alpha yet, but we will start reserching in about 4 turns
Emp. Napoleon says:
help in that would be good, and in exchange we could give IW or something else
casey j says:
you are the Greeks correct?
Emp. Napoleon says:
yes
casey j says:
you start with alphabet
casey j says:
do you mean writing?
Emp. Napoleon says:
err sorry
Emp. Napoleon says:
forget about that, so we would need help on writing
Emp. Napoleon says:
and you philosophy and us Code o' laws
casey j says:
so you're doing the wheel right now?
casey j says:
If we were to give you writing for all the other stuff, how soon could you have Code of laws?
Emp. Napoleon says:
we are finishing up IW
casey j says:
so finish up Iron, okay, and then you would do Code of Laws?
Emp. Napoleon says:
possibly, but liek I said, I would need to check with my goverment
casey j says:
of course, and I with mine.
casey j says:
do you still only have the two cities? I havent checked in the last couple of turns.
Emp. Napoleon says:
nor have I, I just do diplomancy
casey j says:
We just dont want to be waiting forever for you to do CoL (300 beakers). If you only have the two cities, it might take you 25-30 turns.
Emp. Napoleon says:
yes I see
Emp. Napoleon says:
well, I can't say how lng it will take
casey j says:
Its a tough call. You will have the wheel, warrior code, and iron working in 4 turns. I might be able to sell my government on writing for your MA tech, but without a settler factory in your capital and good research speed I dont know if doing the writing deal makes sense.
Emp. Napoleon says:
doesn't make sence?
casey j says:
for us, I mean.
Emp. Napoleon says:
ok
Emp. Napoleon says:
well, I know philio is cheaper
Emp. Napoleon says:
we could do that, and then you do CoL, but I need to check with my goverment how long it would take
casey j says:
how would we know, if we were to do that, that you wouldnt take a free mapmaking and land a galley of hoplites to pillage our poor little improvements?
Emp. Napoleon says:
fre mapmaking?
casey j says:
philo gives you a free technology.
Emp. Napoleon says:
mind if I invite a team member
casey j says:
sure go ahead
Emp. Napoleon says:
ok, he might join us in a few min
casey j says:
**** texas those bastards. sorry for my french.
Emp. Napoleon says:
anyways, we could use that tech for CoL, then ge Republic
Emp. Napoleon says:
lol
casey j says:
what tech, philosophy?
Emp. Napoleon says:
we get that, and use taht on CoL, and you go for someting else
Emp. Napoleon says:
with CoL we get republic
Emp. Napoleon says:
and chare
Emp. Napoleon says:
share
casey j says:
well we may have CoL done, and would want to take republic for free for ourselves. we are trying to decide if we want you as research partners or not. If so, we would want you to have republic as soon as possible for the increased science potential. Hence we are looking at a deal. Plans are highly susceptible to change right now; what is your beaker per turn rate?
Emp. Napoleon says:
I can't say, I don't know; some of my goverment officals may come on tonight, I can ask them then
casey j says:
alright.

Kentharu has been added to the conversation.

casey j says:
hello
Kentharu says:
hello, ill just be observing
casey j says:
sure no problem. Emperor, do you mind if I post our discussion so far for my team to keep them up to speed?
Emp. Napoleon says:
ok so it looks like we wont get writing then for IW & the wheel?
casey j says:
probably not
casey j says:
especially if you dont have IW just yet
Emp. Napoleon says:
well, we will get it in 4 turns, we will be jsut about done by the time the deal is ratified on your side, and oked on mine
casey j says:
I really doubt it, but of course I can take that back to my team. I think they would really want a better deal though, which would encompass either a no trade clause in regards to writing, adding in warrior code to better the deal, or an agreement to give us your free MA tech.
Emp. Napoleon says:
you mean that we wil not trade writing?
casey j says:
Yes, you cant trade writing to the Persians or the Celts
casey j says:
is what that would mean
Emp. Napoleon says:
we can talk about that too
Emp. Napoleon says:
but why do you want to limit it?
casey j says:
so that any neighbors we might have would be as backward as possible
Emp. Napoleon says:
good idea
casey j says:
and more susceptible to being destroyed by our troops
Emp. Napoleon says:
I have wonderful news, I've jsut been informed that we already have IW, so we could ship that out soon
casey j says:
so what is your offer?
Emp. Napoleon says:
one moment
casey j says:
sure. do you mind if I post this discussion and keep my team apprised of the situation?
Emp. Napoleon says:
o yes, you may
Emp. Napoleon says:
I'll be doing the same thing at the end
casey j says:
alrighty
Emp. Napoleon says:
ok
Emp. Napoleon says:
here is the deal, do you have Bronze working?
casey j says:
what is the deal?
Emp. Napoleon says:
first I need to know if you have BW?

Kentharu has left the conversation.

Emp. Napoleon says:
becuase we can offer it too you
casey j says:
we dont have bronze working
Emp. Napoleon says:
BW & IW
casey j says:
Nope not going to happen.
Emp. Napoleon says:
IW would get you Iron on the map you know
casey j says:
Yes it would.
Emp. Napoleon says:
ok, well I'll stop haggling you there
Emp. Napoleon says:
let's see, BW, WC, CB, for WRiting
casey j says:
you have ceremonial burial right now?
Emp. Napoleon says:
yes
casey j says:
and you have the wheel as well or is it due in 4 turns?
casey j says:
naturally we would want the wheel rather than CB
Emp. Napoleon says:
that's due in about 4 turns
Emp. Napoleon says:
could be more or less, about that though
Emp. Napoleon says:
BW and Wheel in 4 turns
Emp. Napoleon says:
then give us writing
casey j says:
Not going to happen.
Emp. Napoleon says:
ok, what do you want for writing
casey j says:
BW, iron working, Wheel, Warrior code, and your free MA tech. My team would do that. Anything less and probably not, though I could try to convince them.
casey j says:
if we signed some sort of agreement on techs
Emp. Napoleon says:
that is a lot, and I must say we probally will go for that, but I will bring that back anyways
Emp. Napoleon says:
how about pottery, you have that right?
casey j says:
yes, for sale
Emp. Napoleon says:
waht are you in the market for i that
casey j says:
well the Celts have pottery, are you not wanting to pick that up from them?
Emp. Napoleon says:
I can't answer questions about other civs, I only work with you guys and do not have athority. But what do you want for Potterry
casey j says:
well you obviously know the Celts right?
casey j says:
We could do pottery for Iron working and the Wheel
Emp. Napoleon says:
now that is way too much
casey j says:
that would probably allow you to trade for mysticism from the Celts and come out ahead of us
Emp. Napoleon says:
do they have it?
Emp. Napoleon says:
mysticism?
casey j says:
I dont know, but it would make sense for them to research it since they would have a monopoly.
Emp. Napoleon says:
ok, so first you want a promise from us not to trade techs with other teams, or just the ones we get from you?
casey j says:
just the ones you get from us.
casey j says:
Do you know Persia or the Celts?
Emp. Napoleon says:
I can't say, I do not have athority, I hope you understand
casey j says:
we know you know one of them
Emp. Napoleon says:
like I said, I do not ahve the athority to speak about that, you will need to talk to goverment officals
casey j says:
ok
Emp. Napoleon says:
so first you want a promise from us taht we will not trade techs from you guys to other teams?
casey j says:
Yes is that going to work on your end?
Emp. Napoleon says:
I can ask, and will we recive the same agreement with you guys
casey j says:
yes, if we do it.
casey j says:
but like I said, writing is expensive.
Emp. Napoleon says:
ok, we will get that first, in the meantime we will discuss your offer with writing if we approve of the no trade tech agreement
Emp. Napoleon says:
and we will consider your offer for pottery (BW&Wheel)
casey j says:
The original offer was iron working and the wheel for pottery. But if the counteroffer is Bronze and wheel for pottery, we will consider that.
Emp. Napoleon says:
well, you need BW before IW
casey j says:
Yes you do. Bronze and CB are the cheapest techs in the game.
Emp. Napoleon says:
actually Potery and CB are that's why I am so hesitant on how much you want for Potteryu
casey j says:
Pottery is an important tech. Since you know the Celts, why do you want pottery so bad?
casey j says:
if you can get it from them
Emp. Napoleon says:
yes, it is important I guss, more than value
Emp. Napoleon says:
but I will get that no tech thing going on in our forums, and the deal on Writing (BW, IW, WHeel, WC, and Free MA tech) and Pottery (BW and Wheel)
casey j says:
alright sounds good
casey j says:
I hope we can come to some sort of deal
Emp. Napoleon says:
yes, sorry for taking this chat so long
Emp. Napoleon says:
I hope I didn't waste your time
casey j says:
no problem
Emp. Napoleon says:
I'm a little rusty from the ISDG
Emp. Napoleon says:
so you will be our pernament ambassador?
casey j says:
No probably not. We have elections due pretty soon. But I will be around to spew my somewhat on topic thoughts.
Emp. Napoleon says:
elections for ambassador, or the entire team?
casey j says:
for ambassador and some other posts, turnplayer, internal affairs guy, that kind of thing

It seems they got more infomation out of us than we did from them, but they let there knowing the celts out the bag. That big writing for everything deal is pretty sweet especially if they had a no trade clause. but how would we police that?

I'm not so sure that they know the Celts -- but if they do and we can get something for pottery it would be a good deal for us.

Or this might be an attempt at misinformation...

Thanks for the log! I actually did read it, and indeed, it's going nowhere. I don't think you gave important info away, except perhaps that you know the game better than he does :). Here's what I digest from it:

Their ambassador doesn't know what techs they have. He doesn't know the difference between alpha and writing. He doesn't know that we do not have BW, which he could easily have learnt from the save. He is lying on every point that we can check (about their research in particular). Either he is ignorant, or he is trying to decieve us. If he really wants to "bring much trust to our nations" then he should be honest with us, not ask for freebies.

And how can they offer the wheel? They don't have it, unless they just traded for it. But would Celts have researched the wheel? Not likely, they have better options than that. It is possible that they got CB from Celts. Maybe the Greeks have already done IW before WC, and are now doing the wheel. Anyway, we'll learn what they have next time the save comes around.

It's good to know that they probably found the Celts - unless his statement about CB was another lie/mistake. [EDIT: I rechecked. They have CB actually.] So probably Greeks have a curragh up north. Next time we get the save we can check all the stories about the techs they have. If they suddenly have another tech, then they know someone.

I am still wondering why they kept the save. Our Dave tried to hold the save twice because of diplo matters and was told by the gamemasters to move on. So would the Greeks have been allowed to hold the save for this conversation? Anyway, the save was sent on shortly after you talked.

Interesting, there seems to be a lot of toing and froing, but they just dont seem to going in a direction, its a bit all over the place, almost like they are stalling or just arn't sure which direction they want to go. Either way its not helping us. I would apply a little pressure at the next negotiations, by saying we will go elsewhere if we cant reach an agreement. The other worring thing is when i loaded up the save to have a look, the science advisor was saying that we are backward, is that a refection of the total techs discovered or the level of techs discovered.

Total techs discovered.

Im leaning towards not bothering with them. If we find the others soon we can play middleman with techs anyway. Mostly I was just fishing for info, but I dont see a reason not to do a Bronze +Wheel for pottery deal if they're serious about that. I think they are 4 turns from the Wheel, but that could change I reckon. They'll find the Celts soon if they havent already (well, if they have a curragh out, I came away from the convo thinking they were a bit confused at the very least).

When and if they become more of a power we might think about allying with them.

Why would they be researching the wheel? Perhaps they dont have a source of iron readily available or perhaps they need a unit that can run down celtic swordmen.

They might not have a carragh, but just sent a warrior north, which would also make sense. Reading through the talks so far, mia seem to be lacking direction, which makes me think they would not be useful for a permenant tech partnership. If we can organise some trade, fine but thats all. So i think our best bet now is to find the others teams asap and see if something can be done with them, but in the mean time we should continue to push with expansion and research.

Emp. Napoleon considers himself to be a spymaster. This will apply both on the giving of misinformation to make us jump to the wrong conclusions about their intentions and direction, and on thinking he can get us to reveal everything.

They know we are expecting to get the free tech from philosophy and that republic is a priority for us. They also know we must have the wheel. We've revealed that we are taking a small strategic risk that nobody can reach us with units before we get the military techs.

From Greece's strategy position, they have to eventually build an offensive unit that can't be countered by gallic swords, which means knights, so they want the wheel to locate horses. Their research pattern (IW, wheel, WC) means that they don't understand what it means to have Rik build a balanced map (they assume that there will be a search for resources), and it reveals that they probably plan to war with someone earlier rather than later.

I would like to sell pottery for whatever we can get. Take BW and trust them to follow with either IW or wheel.

Latest data:
- in the new turn (turn 33, 2480BC), Greece has BW, WC and CB. They do not have Masonry or Wheel. Probably they have IW, but we cannot see that.
- on turn 32 (2520BC) and 31 (2560BC) they had the same techs.
- on turn 30 (2600BC) they had only BW, but not Masonry, Wheel, WC or CB. So they must have traded, they cannot get two techs in one turn otherwise (unfortunately I missed that they received CB that turn, otherwise we would have known this sooner). Perhaps they traded both these techs for alphabet, or perhaps they researched one and got the other in trade.

Received this in the gmail mailbox. It seems Feaurius is much more up to speed and on his toes.

To Team Doughnuts

Thank you for meeting with us, however we felt that your idea of a good deal was not only somewhat one-sided, but totally situated in the realms of fiction. Your diplomatic team totally over estimated the values of your technologies and dramatically under estimated ours ...

I attach below an easy to read table of Relative Values for Technologies ... please read thoroughly to understand our point of view.
[spoiler=Tech Values 101]
Ancient Ages
Pottery - 2, Ceremonial Burial - 2, Bronze Working - 3, WarriorCode - 3,
Masonry - 4, Mysticism - 4, The Wheel - 4, Alphabet - 5, Horseback Riding - 5
Iron Working - 6, Philosophy - 6, Mathematics - 8 Writing - 8, Code of Laws -
10, Literature - 10*, Map Making - 12, Polytheism - 12, Currency - 16,
Construction - 20, Monarchy - 24*, Republic - 28*.

We welcome peace between our two great peoples ... But peace does not mean that trade must be one-sided ... Trade, like peace, must be mutually beneficial ...

We await your next proposal ... and in future require discussion points posted at least 24 hours prior to chat meetings ... and also to avoid frustration and time wastage you should be aware that diplomats have limited agreement powers where discussions wildly divert from the agenda, and all such options must be brought back to MIA where citizens can comment.

Your team should now be aware of what we can trade ... and where we stand.

1. We would like Pottery ... which we can smartly research very swiftly and will do nothing to increase our poulation growth in the short term ... A trade for Pottery with you will only save us 60 beakers of research time and in return you can save upto 90 beakers depending on your choice ... so take it or leave it ...

Choice for the swap one ONLY from -
>Ceremonial Burial
>Bronze Working
>Warrior Code

2. We require Writing ...

and can offer the following
>Ceremonial Burial
>Bronze Working
>Iron Working
>Warrior Code
>Wheel

we await your offer ...

In good faith and friendship and also to dispel any awkwardness that may exist due to the last meeting, MIA would like to enclose a gift which had been prepared earlier to show that we are an honourable people ... a flag ... as we notice that you have none posted on the UN team thread ... our team's artist will be happy to add any written information to the image that you may wish ...

Regards

Feaurius III
Foreign Minister MIA

The gift was a banner of a doughnut for our team. Im inclined to send back a counteroffer of pottery for Bronze and iron or wheel to see what they say. It seems we would take either of those from our poll, and I'll push for the wheel since it leads 3-2 over iron.

Proposal:

Bronze and (IW or wheel) for pottery. We can send right away since we have the save.
(to throw in some blackmail) we promise to not drop off warriors beside your hoplite defended cities to initiate a Golden Age for you so early in the game. Our desire is that Doughnutia and the MIAans can have a trustworthy relationship and peace between our peoples.

Is that too harsh? Is there something else we can throw in to sweeten the deal? We have 11 gold right now. We can let them know we have wines and ordain a wines-ivory trade deal for the future if that might sway them. Do I have consent to use one of those "sweeteners" to get the deal done?

As a sidenote, we received an email saying that we won the "internet lottery," so we can all quit our day jobs.

I don't think they'll accept it, and I think Pott for WC or BW is a reasonably fair deal (their "expose" about tech values doesn't cut it of course, but who cares). I would not make threats about dropping warriors, it sends the opposite message of the "trustworthy relationship" one.

Otoh, their letter is very condescending and belittling, "explaining" to us how trade works. The deals proposed by our side were of course ridiculously onesided, but their diplomat was rather annoying. Next time they might send someone who has seen the save. Question: do we need to point these things out to them, or do we simply ignore it?

I dont think they'll accept it either but it doesnt hurt to go for the little bit extra. We can always come right back with an alright on the pottery for BW deal. They may be researching the wheel to trade to the Celts (a big if) for pottery. If so, they would be getting pottery in a few turns anyway but give up a possible wheel monopoly in hopes for more techs. It would make more sense to get it from us. Our window of opportunity is limited though in any case. A non aggression deal would allow us to settle the furs without fear of war with them right away.

Possible letter, needs corrections and suggestions:

Greetings MIA:

We thank you for your message, and we are replying in kind. Thank you very much for your gift. We have excellent news! Our sages have seen fit to offer the technology of pottery to you in exchange for Bronze Working and 10 gold.

We note that you have ivory under Theron. We will soon have wines to trade. We would be willing to do an ivory for wines trade when we get the proper connection hooked up.

We would prefer to sign a non aggression pact until turn 100 to prove our friendly intentions. We would like another meeting to discuss these matters.

Please discuss and get back to us. We are ready, willing, and able to send pottery right away so you can continue with your empire building. If we could deal directly with you Feaurius, that would be great.

Sincerely,

Killercane

Using the "others know this" argument will backfire, as they will say the same thing about pottery. I think we should take the 1:1 for any of the three techs they mention, and consider ourselves lucky that they didn't know pottery already.

As for how they got two techs in one turn, there is also the possibility that they popped a hut, maybe via border expansion which is pretty safe.

We're not up against novices, and we will be seen as arrogant and dishonest if we try to treat the other teams poorly. Sure, we should initially suggest trades which are favorable to us, but not so one-sided as to be ridiculous. If you would answer an AI with "no way" when presented with the same deal we are offering them, then we're asking for too much.

ditto DS.

I would also leave out veiled threats of war etc. We want to be friends. Ivory for wines deal will take > 50 turns before hookup, even if a land conenction is possible. Should we mention that already?

And good thinking on the hut, DS! It's definitely possible. Too bad, I thought we knew something :).

I am against even mentioning war in these negoiation, They know we have nothing to fight them with and we know they have nothing. Acting angry will just make them stuborn. Or even sounding like there teaching us anoys us. I say we apologies for onesided trade propositions and say thank you for the exchange rate and banner. we then state that we are willing to trade pottery for bronze working and the wheel. And writing for Ceremonial burial and Iron working. We then state that as our unique unit is a horse unit iron working is worth less to us most nations, so this second deal is fair to both partys. I would leave out the trade route talk because that is too much infomation for one negoation round and will just confuse things. Also we could add that we both agree not to on-sell the technology with out the approval of the other. We could also ask for another Meeting to decide these two issues and begin the ground work for a Nonagression policy. (which we will discuss there, bring it back to the forums and sign via email)

Letter edited. What else do we want in it?

If we are to offer writing and pottery for BW, IW, CB and wheel, that would be a very generous offer and one they shouldn't complain about. I wouldn't bite on some of the more inflamatory lauguage and as for pottery not being of immediate use is a bit a load of you know what. I might mention that the ambassador seemed out of the loop, but thats not important. If they are unhappy about the above swap then go for the pottery-BW swap, its at least a start and would break the ice.

edit- i kind of wrote it jumbled. The main offer should be the pot.-BW as we as they have said they would agree, but after that mention that the writ+pot for BW+IW+CB+wheel, would be possible from our side.

We can do the full deal, but in two stages since it would take two turns to do the deal in the game. First Pottery for BW, then come back with the writing deal as a separate thing and separate negotiations.

Reminder: I'm away from my civ computer for a couple of days.

I would not trade writing just yet. Perhaps we'll meet someone soon, there is no hurry I think.

Independent of you I also made a draft letter. Feel free to steal/edit whatever you like, or ignore it if you think yours is better. Details on the tech trade have to be filled in depending on what the people want - it currently just represents what I would do :).
Among other things, this letter attempt to defuse the situation by making a deal, and by saying we didn't like the meeting either, we think that they are partly to blame, but we want to move on.

EDIT: letter edited, replacing BW for WC, and changing specifics on the trade procedure. donut picture added.


Dear MIA,

Thank you for your letter. We have read with interest your exposition on base tech cost. As you surely know, there are more factors to a techs value than its base cost, but we understand your position.
Concerning our previous meeting, it was our impression that this meeting was to deal with possible tech trades. You will hopefully understand that our representative was not amused to discover that MIA's ambassador didn't seem to know what MIA's tech position was, or even what MIA had available for trade. We do not consider such meetings useful unless representatives are reasonably well informed about the state of their own nation. That being said, we feel that MIA - Doughnut relations are best served by leaving the failure of this meeting behind us and turn our eyes to the future.

We are pleased to see that you have made some specific offers for trades. We are interested in trading Pottery for Bronze Working. Regrettably we cannot commit to a trade involving Writing right now, but we may do so in the near future. In the interest of any future deals, may we assume that all the techs listed on your side are actually in the possession of MIA?

In ordre to speed things up, we have enclosed Pottery as trade offer with the save. On your next turn, please add Bronze Working and accept. We will then accept next time the save comes to us.

Finally we would like to thank you for your beautiful flag design. As a return gift we send you a box of doughnuts and a recipe, so that you have some use for your new pots and pans.

I don't think i could have worded it better myself
Good work zyxy :goodjob:

Looks A ok by me. The save is due in 3 hours btw. Can you send it on along with the letter zyxy?

Save is due in an hour. Can anyone send it before 4:30 EST?

I can sure play. But do we all agree on the tech we want? I have seen most people say BW, so I'll go with that unless I hear complaints.

DS suggested somewhere to leave the deal unaccepted first, so I'll go with that. Will change the letter accordingly. EDIT: done.

I'll play the save in half an hour.

Following letter was sent, with the image from the previous page:


Dear MIA,

Thank you for your letter. We have read with interest your exposition on base tech cost. As you surely know, there are more factors to a techs value than its base cost, but we understand your position.
Concerning our previous meeting, it was our impression that this meeting was to deal with possible tech trades. You will hopefully understand that our representative was not amused to discover that MIA's ambassador didn't seem to know what MIA's tech position was, or even what MIA had available for trade. We do not consider such meetings useful unless representatives are reasonably well informed about the state of their own nation. That being said, we feel that MIA - Doughnut relations are best served by leaving the failure of this meeting behind us and turn our eyes to the future.

We are pleased to see that you have made some specific offers for trades. We are interested in trading Pottery for Bronze Working. Regrettably we cannot commit to a trade involving Writing right now, but we may do so in the near future. In the interest of any future deals, may we assume that all the techs listed on your side are actually in the possession of MIA?

In order to speed things up, we have enclosed Pottery as trade offer with the save. On your next turn, please add Bronze Working and accept. We will then accept next time the save comes to us.

Finally we would like to thank you for your beautiful flag design. As a return gift we send you a box of doughnuts, so that you have some use for your new pots.

Regards,
Team Doughnut

gj, zyxy :)

New message from MIA. Looks like we need an artist:


We await your signature ... then you send back and we can keep it in the place where special things are kept

Enjoyed Donuts :lol:

;-)

MIA

Found a possible seal. It may need some cleaning up:

love the seal :lol:

It's a good-un. Perhaps we could doctor it to say "Official Seal" instead of Safety Inspector and "mmmmmm Doughnuts" or something similar instead of the SNPP thing.

But even as is, I'd be happy to see it used! :D :lol:

Civman2004's ideas sound great! If anyone wants to, feel free to edit it. I'm not good at such things, unfortunately....

Great seal! Hehe, that Homer Simpson seal with the nuclear power plant blowing is really funny. Perhaps we should assign it to the defense department or anything involved with security, meaning "you can trust us" :lol:.

How about this? It can of course also be done without the "approved" stamp.

I think leave the approved off, we're already signing it with the seal.

Here's the one without the stamp:

The following has been received from MIA. In a separate note they requested the signed agreement image.


Dear Rival

Team MIA have discussed at length the preferred method of diplomacy ...

The Proper Channels

1. An agenda will be sent via PM and e-mail to our team address = mtdgMIA AT gmail DOT com

2. We will then arrange a chat session if necessary via your assigned ambassadors


Peace to You and Your Team

Regards

Feaurius III
Foreign Minister

I've sent the last version of the agreement to MIA.

Over in the turn 35 thread I mentioned that tech cost shows that we could sell writing for a resource tech (IW / Wheel) plus a non-resource tech (CB / WC). So, do we want to go for the obvious (Wheel + WC) or something a little less obvious?

wheel and warrior code. we should be possibly be thinking about military at this time so these techs are important

Why not go for IW/Wheel. It would give us more ideas of where to place our next cities? You never know - they might be generous?

i would go for wc and wheel as it put us in a postion to go for horseback riding and get our mounted warriors into the game

It's a tough decision but I would not trade writing away yet, and hope to meet another civ first. If we trade it away now, then Greece can sell it on (I'm almost certain they know someone), and its value is largely or entirely lost. If we can hold on to it, then we may be able to get double or even triple value. Of course that means we'll have to research the wheel ourselves...

Btw, the values are: writing=8, wheel=4, wc=3. So writing for wheel+wc is not very good for us anyway.

EDIT: we have met Persia! Or they have met us, rather. Perhaps we can do some middle-trading too.

What about more agreements with M.I.A? They can be valuable friends.

Btw, the values are: writing=8, wheel=4, wc=3. So writing for wheel+wc is not very good for us anyway.
Dont go just off the values from their shoddy chart. Writing is a lot more valuable than their given relative tech values. Make em research it or play off Persia for a better deal. IW should drop next turn and Masonry is available. We can do a lot with that.

I just got this message.

Dear zyxy of the Doughnuts

We have noticed the delay in sending the turn and are therefore concerned as to your health ...

Our Diplomat Emperor.Napoleon is very eager to chat with you ... can you make yourselves available to him via IC

or I am very much available on AIM (fe3333au)

So do not be shy we will bring the beverage of your choice if you bring a box or two of those delicious assorted donuts.

Yours sincerely

Feaurius III
Foreign Minister MIA

I sent a brief reply thanking them for the invitation, and saying I would pass it on to the team.

It seems more people got the same message. Maybe we should inform MIA of our preferred method of communication. We can just copy theirs :D.

I got the same message. Figure they know we met somebody hence the delay?

This was received in our gmail.
Date: 21-Sep-2005 16:13


Hey Hey Hey

It's Emp. Napoleon, and I wanted to know if you guys just wanted to get together for a little chat, maybe talk a little techs if you are interested. I would like to speak as soon as possible. I will be around untill about 10:30 PST today, and from 3:15-10:30 PST tommarow. Please AIM or MSN me as soon as you get this message.

AIM: emperornapoloen
MSN: emperornapoloen@hotmail.com

Sincerly,
Ambassador Emp. Napoleon

Perhaps our ambassador can draft a reply?

We have received another PM from MIA:


Dear DaveShack of the Doughnuts

We are eager to resume talks and would appreciate an audience ... so please contact our representatives using any of the following methods ...

Our Diplomat Emperor.Napoleon is always available via PM or IC.

I too am at your service and very much available on AIM (fe3333au)


Yours sincerely

Feaurius III
Foreign Minister MIA

Once again I would like to call on all our citizens to volunteer to be ambassador, and in a feeble attempt to encourage takers :D I will nominate soon-to-be-ex-turnplayer DaveShack, citizen-currently-without-a-job killercane, and ambassador-to-TNT-who-may-not-have-a-lot-to-do-for-the-moment Robi D.

In the meantime, here is a draft letter to MIA, please comment.

Dear friends,

Our apologies for not replying sooner to your invitations. Thank you for your concerns about our safety, we are all quite well, and hope the same is true for you.

We are interested in strengthening the trade relations with Team MIA, and we can offer to teach you the beautiful art of writing. In return, our sages would like to learn about archery, wheeled carts, and your ways of burying the dead with proper rituals.

We hope to hear from you soon.

Best wishes,

Team Doughnut

Should we offer some explanation for not replying sooner?
Should we say "strengthening trade relations" or "continuing the strong trade relations"?
Should we ask for WC+WHeel+CB for writing, or just the first two? In the first case we might get more, but it will take longer to reach an agreement. In the second case they'll probably accept very soon.

yes, thats good enough to send, except isn't it pomp and ceremony?

Im a little disenchanted with the latest turn of events but if dave doesn't want the job I nominate myself for the ambassadorship.

I've sent the letter as stated above. Slightly changed compared to the first draft, nothing essential.

I'm not a good choice to be ambassador because I'm too optimistic and there would be too much risk of giving away information needlessly, or accepting less than we should be able to get.

The following was received via PM from Kentharu.


greetings oh great and powerful Doughnut leader/person in charge

I, as of tonight, am the new diplomat to you, assigned by Emperor Napoleon himself (our new and powerful Foreign Minister)
as ordered i need to meet with one of you atleast (talking to myself is fun but...) so, whenever you guys feel like talking feel free
my AIM is Kentharu1 and my MSN add is kentharu@hotmail.com

Kentharu (The slightly slow)

Draft reply, will send this off in a few hours if nobody objects. Please comment.

Hi kentharu,

Congratulations with your appointment! We hope that you like the ambassador's hut in Springfield. And in exchange for monthly beer supplies from MIA, we'll consider upgrading you to the deluxe ambassador hut, the one without poisionous spiders :) :beer:.

Unfortunately Doughnutia currently has no ambasador for MIA, but we'll see what we can do. Could you please let us know what you would like to chat about? It would help our team in its preparations for this chat. Also we would like to know whether you have considered our trade proposal.

On behalf of Doughnutia,

zyxy
a Doughnut

i like the letter. we might want to push for monthly beer supplies from MIA, in exchange for Kentharu being upgraded to the deluxe ambassador hut, the one without poisionous spiders.:beer:

i like the letter. we might want to push for monthly beer supplies from MIA, in exchange for Kentharu being upgraded to the deluxe ambassador hut, the one without poisionous spiders.:beer:

Couldn't resist to add that :lol:. Letter sent.

Reply from Kentharu:

Greatings again dear friend

We (or I whichever) would like to disccus that writting deal. If you are not
able to chat with me at that is fine, whenever is good for you guys is good
for me. I'm not to picky about meeting times either, so if you see me
on-line and need to talk to me, then go right ahead

Kentharu (the slightly slow)

Who wants to do a chat?

And another, from fe3333au:

Dear Citizens of the great Doughnut Nation

We were wondering if there is a reason for your continued silence and lack of will to meet? ... We assumed a willingness on your part to open dialogue when we received your trade proposal.

Yet, we have repeatedly requested, through many avenues, to arrange a chat meeting with your representatives ... concerning of course the finer details of your knowledge swap proposal ... and receive only silence and then recently, a message indicating that no-one was available ...

As mentioned in our correspondences, MIA cannot agree to this document as it stands ...

We are well on the way to gaining the knowledge of Writing as it is ... and since we have noted your lack of certain 'choice' technologies and also sense aggressive vibes percolating from other sources on your continent ... We merely contact you in the perception of the possibility that you may be interested in a mutually beneficial exchange ...

We therefore logically assumed that you would be very eager to trade fairly with us ... if we are mistaken please correct us ... and we will not badger you ...

Therefore we again request audience with our respective diplomatic representatives ... in order to speedily discuss other options that we feel would be fairer to both parties ...

Heed this, the longer you delay discussion ... the less valuable Writing becomes ...

Awaiting your prompt reply ...


Yours sincerely

MIA Foreign Department

Emperor.Napolean - Foreign Minister
Kentharu - Doughnut Ambassador
fe3333au - Aide and Scribe to the Department

I have drafted this letter to send to MIA asap


To Emperor Napolean, MIA Foreign Minsiter,
and kentharu, MIA ambassador to Doughnutia,

Allow me to introduce myself, my name is Robi D and I am the newly elected Foreign Affairs consul for Doughnutia. While I do not officially take office for a couple of turns I am able to begin trade negotiations with your fine country. Firstly, I would like to apologise for the delay of our reply to your offer to negotiate, but we had a couple of major events coincide. Firstly their was our recent elections and secondly we had met the nation of TNT in our travels. We welcomed them with open arms to which they responded by trying to put a knife in our back. Rest assured we will punish their treachery severely, but I do advise you to be weary in your dealings with these warmongering fools if and when you meet them.

Now to get our trade negotiations off to a start, we are willing to trade Writing for bronze working, wheel and ceremonial burial. Please take this offer and discuss it with your government. I can be reached via PM on the forums to discuss this further.

Thank you for your patience.

Robi D , Foreign Affairs Consul for Doughnutia

we already have BW.

I like the trade deal, it's pretty fair. However, writing for 3 techs might be too much to ask for. writing is very valuable but 3 techs. like zyxy said we have bw the other two techs is possible. i'm behind the trade 100%. I would also like to volunteer to be our representative at the summit. I have an AIM address so I could talk that way. however, it would be my first time doing something like this, so i would need so more intel on what to say.

we already have BW.


oops, i meant warrior code :)

First of all, thanks Robi D and Vikingruler for reviving this. Let's hope it will bear fruit.

I like the trade deal, it's pretty fair. However, writing for 3 techs might be too much to ask for. writing is very valuable but 3 techs. like zyxy said we have bw the other two techs is possible. i'm behind the trade 100%. I would also like to volunteer to be our representative at the summit. I have an AIM address so I could talk that way. however, it would be my first time doing something like this, so i would need so more intel on what to say.

It would be great if you could chat with them. The main purpose s far as I can see is to learn what they intend to give for Writing, and see if it gets close to what we want to have. Apparently they will only tell us in a chat.
The minimum I would like to get for Writing is Warrior Code and Wheel, so that we can research HBR. We can do without Ceremonial Burial for a while, it is a cheap tech and not essential for our survival.

Okay sure, how about I say we offer writing, we want Warrior code and the Wheel and if possible Cerominal Burial if they are willing. Would you mind if we put a little bit of our gold, I'm not sure how much we have, but 10-20 would probably be enough.

I just need the MIA delegates AIM addresses and a time frame.

Sounds good. You can always hint at gold, see what they say. The new save just arrived, it would be good if you could chat with them before I have to play (some 22 hrs from now).
AIM of EmpNapoleon, Kentharu and fe3333au are on the previous page: emperornapoloen (might be typo), Kentharu1 and fe3333au.

Well, I had MSN and AIM going just in case someone was actively looking for us, and had the following chat with Kentharu. This is my first attempt at chat diplomacy so be gentle with your criticism. :)


Kentharu says: hi there
DaveShack says: hi
Kentharu says: your from Doughnut right?
DaveShack says: yes, has anyone contacted you yet? I've been setting up my system with more chat options in case nobody else has gotton around to it yet
Kentharu says: nope no one
Kentharu says: so can we talk now, before it is to late?
Kentharu says: once it is fine with you of course
DaveShack says: certainly
DaveShack says: we are interested in a deal involving writing and have been hoping to hear what you're willing to offer
Kentharu says: perhaps the wheel and cerimonial burial is a good trade?
Kentharu says: seeing as the wheel is a valuable tech, leading to riding
Kentharu says: what do you think?
DaveShack says: that may be what we were thinking, just a sec while I check the forum
Kentharu says: take your time sir
DaveShack says: would warrior code and the wheel be acceptable?
Kentharu says: warrior code would be valuable also to you, since i assume you are having trouble with another team
Kentharu says: i hope i am not wrong to assume?
DaveShack says: some folks with blue clothing are acting in a most unfriendly manner
DaveShack says: a favorable trade now might give us confidence to return the favor in a future trade
DaveShack says: I would certainly argue in that direction
Kentharu says: as i would, and it would ensure our future trade perhaps, i do think warrior code and wheel is fair for writting, but my team may not be so inclined
Kentharu says: they think the wheel would suffice
DaveShack says: we could each ask our team to consider the options further. the first thought on our side was 3 techs for writing but the more level headed among us convinced the greedy ones that it would be quite insulting to suggest that note: a little poetic license on my part, please don't be offended... don't know if it showed up on the other end of the chat anyway
Kentharu says: sorry bout that, happens sometimes (cruddy computer)
DaveShack says: no problem, I gather that means your connection dropped
Kentharu says: for a moment
DaveShack says: so there are two main possibilities, either CB+wheel or WC+wheel. we would obviously prefer WC which gets to HBR first but I'll post a question to the team to see what they think
Kentharu says: as will i
DaveShack says: if we continue cooperating, then we'll both eventually have access to Republic way before the others, which is a big advantage to a potential long-term alliance
Kentharu says: and in keep both of us alive
DaveShack says: are you permitted to say if you've had any other contacts? I checked with the admins and they say that is OK, just not brokering deals...
Kentharu says: no new contacts
Kentharu says: and you?
DaveShack says: just those blue-clad folks (Persia = TNT)
Kentharu says: hopefully TNT isn't to aggressive
DaveShack says: it will be interesting to see how they behave given the forum tone
DaveShack says: given Rik's warning however I expect things to calm down a lot
Kentharu says: so i would hope, but you never know
Kentharu says: now, at the risk of sounding rude, is that all?
DaveShack says: I was struggling with how to ask the same question
DaveShack says: nothing more for now, looking forward to talking again
Kentharu says: lol, cool, latter then good luck with TNT

I've also had a chat with MIA's ambassador kentharu. Since it was pretty much along the same lines as daveshacks conversation, i wont post it here (unless you want me to, i saved it just in case), but there were two extra things i brought up. One was the possiblities of other tech trades. They said they have nothing at the moment. I brought up that we have philo, since they already knew we were researching it anyway for them to keep in mind. Secondly i discussed the possiblities of a non-agression pact, not because it really matters to much at the moment with them being on another continent, but more to assure them that we are not looking to attack them. So basically atm there discussing wheather to trade wheel and WC or wheel and CB. I know we are all happy with the first trade but are there any thoughts on the second possibility?

DS and Robi, :goodjob:

I think WC + Wheel is acceptable. Wheel+CB is very meagre, I don't know about that. Only the Wheel is ridiculous. They obviously try to take advantage of the situation, maybe we should research some stuff ourselves.

Btw, I really don't understand the purpose of these chats. Their ambassador told us what they might give for Writing, but half of the options he gave are apparently not backed by his people and the status of the other half is unclear.
The only other thing that happened is that they were fishing about our relation with TNT, so is that what this chat was all about? :confused: :crazyeye:

Maybe we should send them a letter to lower our offer to wheel+warrior code for writing, perhaps with a deadline in three days or so. See what they do.

Well from what i can gather from the two talks they seem to be trying to get a little extra given our situation. It seems strange to me that they worry that giving us wheel and WC gives us a quick jump to HB riding, but at the same time don't feel the need to sign a non-agression pact because we are on different continents. If we were to except wheel and CB i would expect 30gold on top of that as a minimum, but even then i would only be half happy with the offer.

Seeing as DS and Robi D have already had a chat, that no offense didn't insure the trade to go through. I'll be willing to chat around 3:00-4:30 my time, (22 hours like zyxy suggested) and propose writing plus 10 or 15 gold for WC+ Wheel. How about that?

With the forum back on i expect to hear from MIA soon. There is 2 possible replys they can give us atm, so here are my suggestions of what we should do.

1. They offer WC and wheel for writing.

We say thank you very much and get on with the game.


2. They offer CB and wheel for writing.

War or not this in my opinion is not a good deal, but since we need a deal i propose that we send the back two options for them to choose from, them being

A. CB + wheel + 60 gold for writing
or
B. WC + wheel for writing + 20 gold

Even though i dont think the 20 gold is justified, we need WC and wheel so we can get on with researching other stuff. So tell me what you think of the suggested responses and whether they need to be ammended or not.

I like it, but what if they don't have 60 gold? How low should we go? Should we trust them with something like 5gpt for 12 turns?

I like it, but what if they don't have 60 gold? How low should we go? Should we trust them with something like 5gpt for 12 turns?


I hope they dont have 60 gold, then they will have to opt for the WC and wheel, but they might offer 3gpt for 20 turns. All in all i think thats an even swap even without the 20g, so they should consider that as a bonus. I dont think we should just give away techs even in our current position, because we can outgrow everyone. Hopefully they go for wheel and WC straight away so we don't have to worry about it.

This was received in the gmail inbox.


Dear Members of the Doughnuts

In the spirit of Trust and Goodwill, we need to clear up a possible misunderstanding:

During a discussion with DaveShack, our Ambassador Kentharu stated that we had made no new contacts. While his answer was technically correct, on reviewing the chatlog it became evident that it was misleading.

Ambassador Kentharu has instructed that this information be corrected prior to the commencement of official business. MIA have met KISS and it occured soon after our first contact with you. We do not want to give you a wrong impression, however one could easily surmise the type of relationship with KISS by remembering where MIA had to turn to for Pottery.

Next ... The topic of Technical Trade. Unfortunately due to the time taken for parley, Writing is now no longer an option as we will have it very soon.

I hope that you do not take this the wrong way, but we feel that MIA is holding a better hand. You have but to calculate yourselves, the time it would take you to research all the military technology required for your UU, found a city near a horse resource, road it and connect it to other cities and All this before the first of your Horse Warriors can begin training.

The figures paint an unacceptable scenario, we fear that by that time you have teched up, the Doughnuts will surely have TNT Immortals at your doorsteps and probably stamping on your memory.

Philosophy for us is not very interesting by itself as you would have already gained the free tech bonus.

So what we want from you is the name of the free technology that you received and also your current research. This will be a goodwill gesture to match our correction about contact information.

I hope that you can see that MIA is eager to assist you against an aggressor, however Doughnuts will need to offer a fair deal.

We have been fair and honest and upfront and now expect the same.


Regards and eagerly awaiting a prompt reply.

Wishing that sanity prevails.


Emperor.Napoleon - Foreign Minister
Kentharu - Doughnut Ambassador
Feaurius III - Foreign Affairs Scribe

They have a point. immortals are nasty

we're doomed unfortuanately

we're doomed unfortuanately

Yeah, we're definitely members of the "less than 25% chance to win" club. If MIA is in trouble with KISS, then we may not be alone there :p.

this really sucks. the way i see we have two options.
1. We build tons of military units and kick the crap out of TNT, razing everything. :evil:
2. We make a trade deal with MIA, get MW and kill TNT.

Either way TNT must be killed, I suggest soon. I would be willing to chat and make a trade, I can do it tommorow afternoon.

I have sent this response off to MIA


To our friends and MIA,

I thank you for your directness and openness of your letter now I shall return the favour. It is true we are in a difficult position, but not an impossible one. For us it was obvious from the start that the greater difficultly would be dealing with TNT and KISS as the celts and persians would have an advantage early in the game with their traits and uu's.

However we believe if we if MIA and Doughnut co operate we can overcome these short term disadvantages. While writing may no longer be an option we have two other techs that we can trade with you, they are philosophy and code of laws.

We are both eager and willing to trade these technologies with you in a FAIR AND EQUITABLE TRADE. Our position may be difficult but understand that we will not give these techs away without something of equal value in return.

Now it is your turn to tell us what techs you have so we can begin negotiations as soon as possible. I'm sure if both sides come in to the negotiations willing to trade fairly they will be successful, just as im sure that if we continue to cooperate both of our nations can have a long and successful future.

Thank you for your time and we look forward to hear from you shortly

Robi D

Foreign Affair Consul for Doughnutia

we're doomed unfortuanately

Dont be such a pessimist. I still say we need to send out peace fellers even if we have no intention of making peace. If we see how eger they are for peace, we can see how strong they are. Lets say we offer, A stright Peace, with them removing there warrior from near us. Its insulting to them but if we do it in a most kiss ass way, then they will reply forcefully with what they want for peace and we will see their true intentions. Remever they can see us we cant see them. Also so killing that warrior and then sending the message the same turn could work well. To intimdate them (even in a small way).

Then again negoating and planing could all be useless because 10 Immortals could walk over that hill anytime and bury us.

I propose a full-out tech sharing agreement with MIA. Each team to fully and fairly inform the other about all tech acquisitions, research settings, and slider settings. Mutually agreed order of research to avoid overlaps, and each team gives the other the newly researched or acquired tech at most n turns after it is researched. Add in a mechanism to ensure neither side gets an extremely good or bad deal, and voila we're in each others back pockets for a while. They seem to be inviting this, maybe the next gestures of good will should be to tell each other the current gross income rates.

Received this offer via gmail


Dear Doughnuts

If you feel secure that TNT is not this very moment sending hordes and hordes of their deadly Immortals racing down to your cities ... and are comfortable to research your UU technology path in a more relaxed and leisurely fashion, then we should stop wasting our respective diplomats valuable time.

Else Our proposal is this ...
MIA next turn ... we send with accept
>Wheel
>Warrior Code

Nuts next turn ... you to send with accept
>Philosophy

Later (when we have Writing) when instructed ... you will send with accept
>Code of Laws

Also just to repeat, but you should already know, we have in addition Iron Working and Ceremonial Burial


Yours sincerely and hopefully friends


MIA Foreign Department

Emperor.Napoleon - Foreign Minister
Kentharu - Doughnut Ambassador
Feaurius III - Aide and Scribe to the Department


My opinion is that they ask way too much for these two techs, and either are not sincere or think they have an awfully strong negotiating position.

who can we give them philo without them having writing???

And if i read correctly, they want philo and CoL for WC and wheel, surely they are joking, maybe I should send them the tech values 101 sheet back to them, because they have lost there minds if they think we can accept that deal. Still i will write out a response shortly

I have sent this reply to MIA. Frankly i believe we have mucked around long enough with this deal, and if they don't like it then we can do our own research.


To the MIA government,

You have put forward an interesting trade offer however there are a couple of things I would like to point out.

Firstly, how are we suppose to give you philosophy this turn when you do not have writing, are you expecting to complete your research of writing this turn?

Secondly, I refer you to a very hand tech values chart you sent us a little while back, since I believe with the trade you are proposing you must have lost your copy.


Ancient Ages
Pottery - 2, Ceremonial Burial - 2, Bronze Working - 3, WarriorCode - 3,
Masonry - 4, Mysticism - 4, The Wheel - 4, Alphabet - 5, Horseback Riding - 5
Iron Working - 6, Philosophy - 6, Mathematics - 8 Writing - 8, Code of Laws -
10, Literature - 10*, Map Making - 12, Polytheism - 12, Currency - 16,
Construction - 20, Monarchy - 24*, Republic - 28*.


Warrior Code + wheel FOR Philosophy + Code of Laws is 7 to 16, and is out of the question.

Our trade offer is this;
Warrior Code + wheel + Iron Working FOR Philosophy + Code of Laws.
You will send us WC + wheel this turn, then when you have writing you send us IW and we send you philosophy and CoL. This trade still balances out 13 to 16 in your favor.

And If you are correct and hoards of immorals are at our doorstep, and you don't except this deal, they you wont be getting either of these technologies and have two very aggressive neighbours at your doorstep.

If you are willing to except this deal, then we can take our trade one step further and enter a full technological partnership. In which case after this trade is conclude you would research masonry, while we do Horseback riding, which we would then swap, then you could research mysticism while we do mathematics and swap maths for ceremonial burial and mysticism and continue so forth until we have covered all the ancient age techs.

We need a reply by the end of this turn for this trade to take place.
Thank you

Robi D

Foreign Affairs Consul, Team Doughnut

OK, this seems a suitable response. :D

I think think they were trying to be nice to us.

I think think they were trying to be nice to us.

They are, in the same way a used car salesman trys to be nice to you while trying to sell you a $5000 car for $8000.:D

They are not being nice.
Even the trades proposed from our side in Robi D's last letter are skewed in their favor. Math for Myst is a rather bad deal, as is HBR for Masonry. Anyway, they'll probably not accept anyway, they seem to favor a hardliner approach.

Had a talk with MIA's ambassador kentharu, which just incidently was at the same time as KISS, basically they arn't going to move until their poll is finished, which is split atm according to ketharu.

Here is the chat log


Kentharu says:
yo
Robi D says:
hi kentharu
Kentharu says:
ok, are you guys at war with TNT?
Kentharu says:
no need to answer it if you dont want to
Robi D says:
we are
Kentharu says:
then you need military techs
Kentharu says:
right?
Robi D says:
yes we do, but at the same time we are look for a equitable swap
Kentharu says:
as are we
Kentharu says:
but, if you were in our position what would you do?
Kentharu says:
would you truely be looking for an equal swap?
Robi D says:
i understand that, and what we have offered in return isn't exactly equal, it still favours MIA by some margin
Kentharu says:
i know, but if pressed we could make a better deal in our fear, you understand?
Kentharu says:
and i really dont like this formal crap
Robi D says:
no i understand your position, and i know your trying to press for the best deal, but at the moment the deal your proposing isn't going to work from our side
Kentharu says:
my team is almost split in this, i personally would say yes to it but i am not my entire team
Kentharu says:
fortunately we might be able to conclude this soon
Robi D says:
thats ok, i mean everyone wants the best deal, i put up a poll for the deal you guys put up and its running against taking it
Robi D says:
sorry if i'm taking a while to respond im at work
Kentharu says:
same here, only it's homework lol
Robi D says:
lol, i have homework when i finsh work
Kentharu says:
you in high school?
Robi D says:
uni
Kentharu says:
oh
Kentharu says:
me 10th grade
Robi D says:
work and uni it tough but im nearly finish uni
Kentharu says:
must be, but i still can't wait till i get in college
Robi D says:
sorry for the wait, as far as your offer goes we are not going to take it as it is, because while i know you guys want the best deal, its a bit extreem
Kentharu says:
we think your replied deal is good
Kentharu says:
but the poll isn't closed yet
Kentharu says:
so officially no, got to cut through all that red tape
Robi D says:
thats ok, our poll hasn't finished yet, and there is still a lot of debate going on
Robi D says:
also we cant give you guys philo before you have writing
Kentharu says:
we will get it soon i supose
Robi D says:
fair enough, im in the same position, but as far as the proposal for a tech partnership, those techs were an example and arn't set in stone, if we agree we can then work out how to do the reearch path
Robi D says:
i need to get back to work, but we can talk to each other soon after the polls end, and see if we can take to from there


This is all irrelavent if everyones happy with the KISS deal but its interesting that there seems to be a major split on the issue on their side.

Should we maybe hint of another possible source for the techs we need? We might be the only ones with all contacts now...

If we can give both of them just CoL for half the techs each, then we keep the Philo monopoly and we don't let either one beat us to Republic.

Now we have the option of ignoring MIA, or of letting them know their trade goods are now worthless. Any thoughts?

I think we should send them a friendly letter saying we are no longer interested in the deals proposed by either side, but would be interested in future deals on an equal basis. There's no good reason to just ignore them, if KISS and MIA don't get along well we should try to profit from both sides.

If KISS and MIA are on the same continent trading with KISS might piss off MIA. Knowing the trades we want to make, they may get scared of KISS and destroy them. This might be unavoidable. We should just gratefully decline and say we wan't to trade in the future but they will have to compete with KISS.

Now we have the option of ignoring MIA, or of letting them know their trade goods are now worthless. Any thoughts?

Well, I believe something must be said. Simply ignoring them will only result in a negative response towards us, moreso than a nice rejection letter. Love them or hate them, I can't see how it would hurt to keep up contact if all we're losing is the piece of parchment we send it on. We don't have to tell them what we're doing instead, just that we're simply not interested.

I'm fine with just a "sorry your offer no longer interests us, maybe another time" type message.

Just reply that because of recent events we no longer need your technology, but we are happy to here any more of your proposals. As far as they know we hit a hut

I think Nobody has pretty much hit the nail on the head. We can quite simply say due to the length of time taken to come to a deal, it is no longer releavent as we have researched wheel ourselves, but that we look forward to coming to other deals in the future. There is no need to tell them we have found KISS, they can work that out for themselves.

We don't have wheel yet. Perhaps better not to tell lies they can check :).

I mean to say nearly researched wheel:). I agree we shouldn't lie, as that causes distrust, but we don't have to tell them what happened either.

of course not :).

I agree with zyxy we should say we have like 5 or 6 turns before we discover wheel and we already have WC. they think we got a hut and start making quicker trades. That should benefit us in the future especially in future situations like our current one with TNT.

This is a short message to MIA saying their trade offer is not useful anymore:)



Greetings Emp.Napoleon and the MIA government,

I regret to inform you that due to our trade talks taking so long we have researched Wheel ourselves so the current trade offer is no longer of use to us. However we hope we can continue our positive relationship and be able to agree on trade deals in the near future.

Thank you

Robi D, Foreign Affairs Consul of Doughnutia

I just had a short informal chat with emp.napolean on msn. We didn't get into serious discussion as i didn't have a lot of time and he wasn't to forthcoming, but they are interested in working out some trades with us. We didn't get into details, i outlined some posiblities like CoL-Lit ect. They will get back to us shortly but it would be good to have an opinion on what you think are good trades deals. Here are a couple of rough ideas to get us started.

CoL + 20g FOR Lit.
Mason + Math FOR MM

This doesn't mean we wouldn't try for better deals, but just want what would be acceptable in everyones mind.

Robi D, good that you started this! Let's see if MIA understands their own position.

Both trades are ok I think, though I like the second one better. I would prefer not to pay gold (rather use it for warrior upgrades), but 20g is not much. CoL for Lit would be a fair deal by their own standards :p.

Any idea what they are researching? He wouldn't say I guess ;).

Robi D, good that you started this! Let's see if MIA understands their own position.

Both trades are ok I think, though I like the second one better. I would prefer not to pay gold (rather use it for warrior upgrades), but 20g is not much. CoL for Lit would be a fair deal by their own standards :p.

Any idea what they are researching? He wouldn't say I guess ;).

He feigned ignorance:rolleyes: . He would said he didn't know whether writing was finished or not, seems you know more about their techs than he does:D .

He did brighten up a bit when he asked what kind of trades we were looking at, and i mentioned a swap along CoL-Lit lines. I wouldn't want to give them gold either, maybe 10, 20 is like a last resort maximum.

I got a message that MIA wants a meeting. No doubt their "discovery" of masonry has prompted interest on their part for a trade with us. I haven't ran into them yet but running through some of the possiblities i'd like to know everyones opinions for the following trades;

Masonry + 20g for Philosophy
Masonry + 15g For Horseback Riding

These are minimum amounts that i'm proposing, in negotiations i would ask for more to begin with, but i want to know what everyone thinks is the absolute minimum for the above trades.

Both look good to me as minimum. I prefer the first, as we've already traded Philo away.

I agree, philosophy would be the preferred trade, and start with more gold.

I agree with DS. HBR would give them an advantage over perhaps KISS. But philosphy doesn't provide any improvements or units except MoM, but the odds of a wonder being built now are probably slim.

Quick Update- Tlaked to emp.napolean today but apprently it MIA's ambassador kentharu who i need to talk to about the deal since the emp. doesn't know much about it:confused:

It strikes me as odd that the FA minsiter doesn't know ANYTHING about the deal, but so be it. I talk to kentharu when i see him

I recieved a PM from Kentharu, saying he wants to talk, and I would love to do it. Of course, Robi D if you want to do it that would be fine with me, but I would love to do it however.

I recieved a PM from Kentharu, saying he wants to talk, and I would love to do it. Of course, Robi D if you want to do it that would be fine with me, but I would love to do it however.

If you see him, by all means talk to him, see what he has to say.
I think a resonable starting point for us is masonry + 40g for philo, if its a definate no then 30g.

Sorry if i haven't been posting as regularly, but work + uni exams = not much free time. Anyway i had a talk with kentharu yesterday and dicussed some trade possiblities (sorry i forgot to save the chat log). He did most of the talking. His offer for a trade is Mason + Lit + MM + 30g for HBR + Math + Curr. Now i know we already have a deal with KISS for Mason - HBR but but we i think the rest of the deal is still workable as we are already committed to do math + curr to swap with kiss for Rep so getting lit and MM +30g would be a bonus. I saw we stopped researched for a turn or two but for some reason i can't see the thread 54 turns + for some reason anymore???

Anyway, tell me what you think of the offer and if its workable i.e. Lit + MM for Math + Curr. ( i will be asking for 40g first up). Also my last exams on friday so i should be back to normal posting after that and the parties that weekend;)

They don't want CoL, because they suddenly have it already. I no longer believe the story that MIA and KISS are not trading, this cannot be goodie hut luck anymore.

It may even be that they set us up, MIA playing the bad guy, KISS playing the good guy. The fact that nobody on our team has any MP experience is hurting us badly....

We haven't heard anything about the republic deal anymore, I guess? Is there a set agreement? Of course, it may have been just a setup to deter us from researching it ourselves. Btw, masonry is still not known to KISS it seems.

-----------------

I honestly do not know what to do about this. If MIA and KISS are in it together, then KISS will win, no matter what we do - well, they probably win anyway. It does not make sense to research or get techs like currency and math unless it can be traded for republic. The only thing that can save us is a deal with both KISS and MIA, but I guess we will not get it.

-------------

On to the current deal:
Mason+Lit+MM = 4 + 10 + 12 = 26
HBR + Math + Curr = 5 + 8 + 16 = 29

As usual, a deal where we are giving up way more then we get. 30 gold is small compensation. On top of that, Lit is optional and we do not need any of these techs really (except for HBR). Not a very good deal, I would say.


Good luck on your exams!

Well i haven't seen anyone from KISS, but i would suppose the deal is still on, i will try to catch one of them in the next day or so. The bit that stuns me is KISS doesn't have masonry, if thats the case then what did they get from the trade with MIA, plus now they have CoL, something strange is going on that isn't in any MP textbook. Also MIA must have got mason from TNT, i know they have met them (classic hero's label kinda gives that one away) but then what did TNT get? Interestingly kentharu was eager to point out they have gold when making the offer, so maybe that says something, but what i don't know.

I agree curr. isn't of much use to us at the moment, but math gives us cat's which we will need for defending, because given the immo's att strength some will get through, if not this time than next.

I have not played civ3 games for awhile. Is it possible to steal techs through embassy? Maybe they got philo from goody hut and stole CoL from KISS.

Ya, but where would they get the embassy money from?

As far as MIA offer goes i can go for two options to improve it.

1 Techs stay the same but ask for 80 gold

2. Instead of Curr we offer them Poly

Edit- The other option is obviously to say no thanks and hope we can pop masonry from one of the huts, that way we wouldn't have to give anyone HBR.

Edit 2- The other thing is that if we can get Rep. from KISS for mason + Math + Curr then staying with the original MIA offer makes sense since we would be getting a 2fer

What do you think is the best way to go?

got masonry... there goes that down the drain...

The following PM's were sent and received. Hope I didn't screw anything up...
=============================

Upon closer review of current events, the 1st trade in this deal is no longer valid as we have the tech you were going to give. Can't believe I didn't notice that before sending my first response. :blush:

We are indeed very interested in continuing trade talks. As I indicated in my earlier PM, there has been a misunderstanding and it appears we were both waiting for the other to respond. Perhaps we should continue with using PMs or email to the standard team address, which seem to be much more reliable. Also we have each shown the other that we understand the relative values of technology, so maybe we should avoid proposing one-sided deals and stick with mutually beneficial trades. That is the path to mutual trust. :)

Regards, DaveShack

There may have been a misunderstanding. Our diplomats reported difficulty finding your representatives online for a chat, and we appear to have incorrectly interpreted that difficulty as a lack of interest in this trade.

I will post the contents of this note in our current turn thread for action. It may not be appropriate to demand we send all three exchanges pre-accepted. I must say however that I have been "distracted" by other events, not the least of which are work and my son's birthday tomorrow, so have not kept current with our internal discussion on this matter, so cannot guarantee anything for this turn which may have already been sent.

For that matter I'm not sure who has the turn right now. If it arrives at MIA without the indicated trade, a show of good faith on your part would be to send Masonry with accept so we can complete that part of the deal on our next turn. If I'm wrong about our acceptance of the deal and we decide not to complete it, I will personally instruct our turnplayer to handle the transaction appropriately (or play the turn myself) so we don't receive it unjustly.

With hope for continued friendship,

DaveShack
Minister of Internal Affairs, Doughnutia

Dear Doughnuts

It has been quite sometime since our last contact ... during this meeting you professed an eagerness to produce a technology trading deal ...

Yet much time has passed and we find ourselves yet again awaiting some form of official response from you ...

In lieu of your frustrating form of diplomacy we have penned the words for the document for your perusal ...

Technolgy Swapping Agreement

1. D-Nuts will send (with accept) MIA the skill of Horse Back Riding and we will in turn send Masonry
2. D-Nuts will send (with accept) MIA Mathematics and we will in turn send you Map Making
3. D-Nuts will send (with accept) MIA Currency and we will in turn send Literacy

We word it such since we now require a show of good faith from your part.

You have one turn to respond else we shall conclude that you are indeed finding pleasure in wasting our time.

Sincerely

Kentharu(the slightly slow)
Feaurius III - Deputy Foreign Minister (AIM=fe3333au)

I recieved the same message and have sent one in return

Geetings MIA,

I do apologise for the delay, i have had exams so i haven't been online as regularly as i would have liked. As far as the proposed deal goes, we have had the good fortune to get Masonry. However this does not mean we are not interested in persuing other deals with you. We would be happy to trade Maths for Literacy with you once we both have discovered them.

You can respond by PM with your answer, but i should also be online more often now that my exams are finished

Robi D
Foreign Affairs Consul, Doughnutia

We have a deal

Just don't know which one... yet!

I ran into fe3333au again and we had a chat about the deals on offer. Depending on MIA's hut popping they are prepared to trade tech in straight swaps, no gold involved.

If they get Math for hut then they will swap Math for HBR

If they dont get Math then they will swap Lit for Math.

Both deals are in our favour tech value wise,( HBR=5, Math=8, Lit=10) so i didn't argue

The chat log is posted below with chit chat removed for your convienience



fe3333au: So things good with you?
RobiD77: yeah, busy but good
fe3333au: MIA would love to enter a trade for Lit and Maths
RobiD77: ok, i guess the hut didn't work out then
fe3333au: not sure ... I am not turn taker
RobiD77: i see, so what do you propose for a lit - math trade
fe3333au: But in principal we agree to trade Lit for Maths ... if we get it first we will swap it to you for HBR
RobiD77: ok, no probs, has your team drafted any terms for the trade
fe3333au: No thought we'd do a straight swap
RobiD77: ok no problem, if you get math from hut, we can swap straight awy then, however if its a math lit swap then we should be able to complete research by around turn 70
fe3333au: Of course I'd create a parchment like we did for Pottery
RobiD77: sure, thats not aproblem
fe3333au: So we are agreeing to swap techs at a time when we both have them
fe3333au: We do not expect you to send it before we are ready
RobiD77: that seem resonable, how long would it take you guys to do lit
fe3333au: Not 100% sure I will have to get back to you with that ... my explorer is acting up and crashing
fe3333au: Do you want me to PM it to you or wait until you are AIMable
RobiD77: thats no good, i had a problem with it not too long ago
fe3333au: I hate Bill Gates
RobiD77: you can PM me if you like, i'm not 100% sure about maths, i would have to check that, but it should be done around 70 give or take a turn

... after this we chatted about the big game tonight (GO AUSTRALIA !!!) before he had to leave

GO AUSTRALIA !!!

well thats enough of that i think.

Had a chat with fe3333au. Apparently MIA got maths for TNT not from a hut, so it looks like we have scared TNT into talking with other teams again. Also MIA are researching Lit. I have offered a Poly for Lit swap and then for us to hold discusstion about how to go about researching MM, which will give us the oppertunity to trade wines for ivory.

Here's the chatlog (with chatting removed)

chat for a bit then get down to buisness

fe3333au: We were unsuccessful from Goody hut ... got a bloody map
fe3333au: but at same time TNT approached
fe3333au: so we traded 3 first level techs
RobiD77: i see, since when do they have maths
RobiD77: interesting, we didn't know that
fe3333au: They must be bee lining tech research
fe3333au: but at least you got it early
RobiD77: i got a proposal for you guys, i just need to go do something, i'll be back in 5
fe3333au: k

have a bit of a chat when i get back before continuing

RobiD77: ok, we are research Poly, if you guy do Maps we would swap, then we both build a harbour and we will trade you wines for ivory, giving us both extra happy people
fe3333au: hmmm ... I will put to people ... we are Lit research at the moment
RobiD77: ok, well we can swap lit for poly, then work out a suitable deal with maps
fe3333au: ok I'll post it in the thread ... anymore exciting war stories :-D
RobiD77: not yet but they have another 3 immos in our neighbourhood, obviously haven't learnt that lesson yet
a bit of a fib here, i told him we killed 3 immos not 2 and a warrior
fe3333au: they come in thress ... interesting
fe3333au: *threes
RobiD77: their strategy is wierd at best
RobiD77: so TNT finally talked to you guys, i wonder if them losing 3 immos had something to do with that:-)
fe3333au: I wonder :-D ... anyway sir .... I must get ready for a bus ...
RobiD77: no problem, post the deal, lit for poly plus the offer to do something with map and the lux trade
fe3333au: will talk anon
fe3333au: cya
RobiD77: cya, enjoy your weekend

Got a letter from MIA last night, i also happened to catch fe3333au, they will have lit in 7, while we have poly in 8. I was also trying to get a deal for MM and some lux trades going but they haven't decided on that yet.


Dear Robi D, Foreign Affairs Consul, Doughnutia

Good Sir, what news from the front? We trust that the war is faring well for you and sincerely wish that Meleet :worship: looks favourably on your efforts against the evil aggressors.

We applaud your researchers whom you say are engaging in an interesting investigation on belief systems and that there are more than one divine entities. An intriguing concept which we are also beginning to embrace. Very interesting indeed, a trinity of creator entities, Meleet who shaped the world and at his side, the ever loyal aides, righteous RegentMan and angelic Ginger_Ale :wow:

We too are eager to enter into a research swapping scenario and are currently discussing just how this will be implemented. What sort of timeline are you intending the proposed exchange to take place in? As we would wish this transaction to happen at our mutually earliest convenience, please indicate an expected completion date.

We recall from recent informal discussions that you expressed a strong interest in Literature. This knowledge will enable the building of vast document storage facilities and the accumulation of rare tomes and other works of grand thoughts and inspiration.

We eagerly await an answer to the timing question as our scribes are eager to prepare the necessary documents.


Good fortune to you :goodjob:

Feaurius III
MIA Foreign Minister

Foreign Staff ... Kentharu and Classical_Hero are also at your service.

literature seems like a possible deal, but it depends what they want from us.

MIA have MM and Lit, and we don't have anything they need. :eek:

Looking back, they had MM on turn 63. They just got lit this turn, so it only took them 9 turns to research??

That probably means KISS is giving MIA some gpt while they do Republic slow, then plan to swap Rep for lit+MM.

MIA have MM and Lit, and we don't have anything they need. :eek:

Looking back, they had MM on turn 63. They just got lit this turn, so it only took them 9 turns to research??

That probably means KISS is giving MIA some gpt while they do Republic slow, then plan to swap Rep for lit+MM.

9 Turns for Lit isn't extrodinary, we could have done it in 9 too so i'm not sure about KISS helping them. Since TNT have currency MIA will probably trade writing and lit with them for currency. Im not sure whether or not KISS and MIA are trading, since they seem pretty keen to trade for Rep with us, (they could also be fishing around for the best deal). Since we popped Lit, i sent a quick note to MIA (below) to see if they will reveal if they have MM and/or currency.

Edit- the chatlog with fe3333au above where i offered poly for MM plus trading wine and ivory was on T68 a full 5 turns after they discover MM, which is a fairly big ommission

To the great people of MIA,
I regret to inform you that after the events of Turn 73 we no longer need Literature. We were fortunate to run into a Teoitechian tribe(hope the spelling right) we were gracious enough to teach us Literature. However you should not take this as a sign that we are no longer willing to trade with you. We have built a good trade relationship over the many turns and are willing to build on it further. As you are aware we are in the process of investigating Polytheism and have nearly found the concept. If you have come into possesion of Map Making or Currency or will do in the near future we are willing to trade Polytheism for them. Feel free to contact our Foreign Affairs Consul, Nobody to discuss the possibilities of such trades.
All the best
Robi D, Doughnutian Turnplayer

I ran into fe3333au earlier today. Mostly it was an informal chat but we covered some buisness and some new info came to light


said hello first ect ect.
fe3333au: so how is the war going?
RobiD77: ok i guess, they just seem happy piss farting about around the jungle, which as far as im concerned doesn't bother me, i just speard some mw's just in case they try anything cute
fe3333au: so doesn't sound like much of a war ... things settling down you think?
RobiD77: well they've changed their plans since we wiped them eariler so it might just be the calm before the storm, but we are quitely confident
fe3333au: That's cool ... but i guess you are wary
RobiD77: yes, just stay on guard, have a few mw doing patrols around the coast and stuff so they can't sneak up on us
fe3333au: what a fun environment :-)
RobiD77: yes very fun:-)
not competely accurate, fairly far from it, but if they are going to tell tnt then i want them giving incorrect tactical info
next we moved on to trades


RobiD77: well we will have poly in 3 so if you guys have MM or currency at that time or the very near future we are happy to work out a deal
fe3333au: Trading for Poly ... I will have to take back to team ... we are on 3 and half active players atm
RobiD77: that bad huh
fe3333au: but we got 3 turns to think about it ... yes?
RobiD77: yes
fe3333au: Yes ... holidays and maybe exams
fe3333au: glad someone mentioned relaxing 24hr rule
RobiD77: like i said if you can get MM they we can knock up a couple of harours and trade wine and ivory
RobiD77: yes i think its only fair, like howmany people are going to be checking the game over christmas/new years every day
fe3333au: Unfortunately we got those luxes ... pity
RobiD77: wine?
fe3333au: I thought about that when our ship was passing
fe3333au: would have been good to have unique luxes
fe3333au: not yet
RobiD77: trying to steal some from kiss
fe3333au: You have to own something first before it is classed as stealing surely ;-)

i gave him a chance to admit they have MM but he was not forthcoming. It also interesting they only have a few active players, and most interesting of all is there plan to take some wines off KISS. That would be of interesting if KISS were to learn of the plan:mischief:

and most interesting of all is there plan to take some wines off KISS. That would be of interesting if KISS were to learn of the plan

The question is: Is this incorrect info like what you gave earlier about the location of patrols, are they trying to scare KISS through us, or is it honesty?

-the Wolf

The question is: Is this incorrect info like what you gave earlier about the location of patrols, are they trying to scare KISS through us, or is it honesty?

-the Wolf

Its always a possibility, but if they weren't going to then why turn down our offer of wines for ivory, although having said that i believe there not too keen to give us MM. I sure they will trade something for poly its just a matter of what they are willing to.

could mean their going to trade with them or just bulid a colony their.

We are friendly with KISS, so a war between MIA and KISS could REALLY put us in hot water. Also that event MIA could form an alliance with TNT, because there are rumors that those teams are friends.

Should we inform Kiss?

Yes, it may cement them to our side for now, in case MIA openly sides with TNT.

-the Wolf

we could get MIA and KISS to team up on TNT....

I had a chat with fe3333au last night. Most of it was informal but when i asked about upcoming trade possibilities he eventually said that they had popped Poly from a hut. Whether it was genuine forgetfulness or otherwise i dont know. Here is that part of the chat.


RobiD77: so has your side come up with any proposals
fe3333au: we are in the middle of elections ... so we need to address that first ... damn those turns are speeding though ... bad time of year
fe3333au: so sorry I have no answer at the moment
RobiD77: i see, thats ok i understand. Do you at least have an inkling on whether something can be worked out
fe3333au: could you fill me in again ... sorry been distracted by allergies ... so am a bit cotton wool headed atm :-(
RobiD77: hehe thats ok, we will have poly next turn, so if you guys have Maps or Currency we would be happy to work something out
fe3333au: Oh thanks ... Now you mention it ... I actually have been keeping a count down LOL
RobiD77: no problem
fe3333au: to answer you question ... I hope this doesn't anger you ... but we do need some time ... I will have an answer by the next save comming to you ... is that ok?
fe3333au: *your
RobiD77: no thats ok. So how are things with kiss
fe3333au: tense
fe3333au: very tense actually
RobiD77: having an expansion rush
RobiD77: contest
fe3333au: yes it is difficult ... we are trying to keep up with them
RobiD77: i suppose we would be doing the same thing if we weren't already at war
fe3333au: and we are getting cities that can see each other ... and unfortunatley the citizens are not waving
RobiD77: were having a military build up contest
fe3333au: So how is war going ... the immorals are keeping you occupied?
RobiD77: yeah been trading blows, but no descisive winners so far
fe3333au: any casualties?
RobiD77: yeah a couple each
fe3333au: so last skirmish was even?
RobiD77: yes, just testing each other out atm
fe3333au: Actually I have to say ... now that I'm focusing on game ...
fe3333au: we popped our last hut ... and got Poly


In the next bit we got onto the topic of TNT and what they been saying about us. Apprently they believe we will be pushovers and that their big attack will come from an unexpected direction, i guess that explains why they are not serious about peace. Anyway heres that part of the chat.

fe3333au: So have KISS said anything to you about us?
RobiD77: not really, same as you, not communicating ect
RobiD77: tnt been talkative
fe3333au: To you?
RobiD77: no i ment to you
fe3333au: LOL I thought they were sending e-mail insults ;-)
fe3333au: regarding us ... the channels are open ... but they have nothing we want
RobiD77: well sort of, its the only thing you could call their peace proposals
fe3333au: I suspect they are sending messages to KISS as well
RobiD77: have they said anything about the war, are they still supremely confident
fe3333au: They have been cock enough to send us news from th front
fe3333au: different stories though
fe3333au: *cocky
RobiD77: really how different
fe3333au: yes ... they have had recent victories ... and the final push will be comming from an unexpectant direction
RobiD77: hehe is that so
fe3333au: they don't see you offering much resistance
RobiD77: did they mention the recent defeats too or did they skip that bit
fe3333au: First I heeard LOL
fe3333au: we were beginning to get worried for you
RobiD77: they can believe what they want
fe3333au: Do you know how many cities they have?
RobiD77: no doubt they can hurt us, we are not completely dilusional like they are, but we can hurt them too
RobiD77: we have a rough idea
fe3333au: we saw 2 coastal cities ... and a source of iron
RobiD77: yeap, the rest are inland
fe3333au: do you have any cities in spitting distance to them?
RobiD77: no there a fair distance of seperation, remember us 2 have been building units not settlers
fe3333au: good point
fe3333au: So your strategy is defence ... while they do all the movement
fe3333au: and end up long way from nearest base
fe3333au: good strategy
RobiD77: more or less but we will do a bit of poking around to
fe3333au: you have the movement points for that
RobiD77: thats right, so i don't understand how they think we will offer no resistance, not that i really care
fe3333au: they speak big ... you got any elites yet?
RobiD77: they been speaking big since day one, and they haven't been able to back it up with actions though

:rotfl: :rotfl: <== is what I think of TNT overconfidance. This is the silver lining of loosing GS squad, they probably think that the GS Squad was our only offensive group. Hopefully they now move a great many troops down the Jungle Road (I believe this is the unexpected direction) and our CR squad can smash them when the aren't looking.

-the Wolf

Just got this off the diplomatic wire from MIA, looks like things are starting to heat up in the game. This could be the oppertunity we've been waiting for, we have all three of the teams trying to suck up to us:lol:

Dear Doughnuts,

First off, let us apologize for the long delay between communications. We've been scrambling to take care of several potential disasters that all sprung up at the same time. Don't worry – things are mostly back under control now.

We want to update you on what's going on over the sea in our neck of the world and also to demonstrate that we are not deliberately keeping you in the dark. We mentioned our troubles with KISS to you in a previous chat, and we regret to inform you that things continue to deteriorate … although we're still hoping to avoid war … that hope seems increasingly like vain hope. KISS continues to back away from our peace deal, we just received a curt note which indicated that after 470BC (T104) the mutual peace between our peoples will no longer be in effect ... simply put after this dark date, KISS are free to act with aggression without suffering a penalty.



To MIA Diplomatic Corps:

We are unhappy, and frustrated, by your recent dealings with the "Dark Side" across the water. We can no longer guarantee continued peaceful relations beyond 470BC (T104).

During this period we will view any incursion of your troops or settlers north of The Line of Demarcation set forth in the attached map as an act of war and will respond accordingly.

Bede of KISS


We think that our Hoplites may be the only thing deterring a sneak attack for the time being. (as we are no longer sure how far we can trust KISS' honour)

Several turns ago – when everything started to go south with KISS, our defensive position was much weaker than it is now … and fearing for the very existence of our Empire – we scrambled to find an ally to help save us from KISS. As a team, we decided that rapid advancement to the Middle Ages was our best hope for surviving KISS – and TNT was the only team with the knowledge we needed to get to the Middle Ages.

We deeply regret any false-impressions this may have given you. Let us say emphatically: We mean no harm to your people whatsoever. We explicitly told TNT that we would not be involved in any military action against you, and that our tech swap would in no-way obligate us to help them in a military manner.

It is still MIA's hope that we can become good friends and trading partners. (We don't know if those KISS snakes have been whispering in your ear – but please take what they say with a grain of salt … we know for a fact that they have been trying to spread half-truths about other teams and suspect now about MIA)

History is the great teacher, for a possible litmus ... is it not confusing and disturbing how quickly a firm and strong powerful alignment crumbled into distrust and jealousy, especially when the perceived junior partner begun to out prosper the other)

Regrettably – as part of our deal with TNT, they quite naturally required that we not trade any of their technology to any other teams. At the time we also found out that KISS too were engaged in discussions with TNT and therefore the negotiations were reduced to a bidding war between KISS and us, with both teams fully understanding the restrictions and implications placed on the trade deal.

As you can see, we were in no position to bargain with them – and therefore cannot honourably trade many of our new techs with you. However – we do have a few proposals we would like to put on the table to help cement our good relationship and light a path forward for both our peoples.
(This isn't necessarily a formal proposal – just some ideas, which, if you like them also – we'll write them up all nice and formal and have a signing ceremony and celebration)

1) Trans-Oceanic Peace Treaty. We propose signing a peace agreement that is basically unlimited, but either team can leave the treaty as long as they provide 5 turns notice to the other team. Leaving the treaty would not be an act of war – it would just no longer guarantee peace. We think this is a reasonable first step on the road to long-term peace for both of us.

2) You get Pianos, we get Happy Hour! We propose trading Ivory for Wines as soon as you get a harbour up and running.

3) We are interested in trading some technology with you. As we mentioned, we have to be careful – but we have some options, depending on what you're interested in. If you're researching Monarchy – or plan to research Chivalry eventually… then we may have some options to trade tech straight across. A more likely scenario may be us selling you some of our technology on very favourable terms. As a show of good faith – we'd be willing to make you a good deal on Republic or Currency – if you're interested in either. Let us know!

Anyway, we're happy to keep you up to date on the events on this side of the pond, so feel free to approach us with any questions or concerns. We promise to be more vociferous now that our crises have been averted. And if KISS is saying things that are painting a strange picture (as they have done with TNT), we hope you will ask us about it. We, of course, will do the same for you.

We look forward to many more years of peace and cooperation with our friends across the sea.

Feaurius III
Foreign Minister MIA

PS. We haven't sighted any TNT movement in your direction – but we'll let you know if we see or hear of anything!

I spoke to fe3333au last night. As soon as we have our harbour up and running the ivory-wine trade will take place. They have also expressed an interest in trade for Monarchy and have tentativly offered Republic in the swap, but that will be decided shortly

Did MIA declare war yet?
Might as well organze a premptive strike with KISS. Send one or two MWs, just to make KISS like us more

I am relieved, MIA is not planning to attack us. We should establish a long term peace. There is an opportunity, we wait until K.I.S.S. sends us Invention. Trade it for Theology with MIA. They know Theology already. Haven't seen Nobody for awhile, could do a proper proposal for MIA. Though no alliance.

MIA lost warrior to barb horseman.


Dear Nobody

We have lost track of our warrior who was wandering around your territory, can you pass on any information regarding his mysterious disappearance?

Also you mentioned in a previous letter that you were interested in a peace treaty with us.

We are always interested in peace therefore, could you send additional information as to what type of peace you would be interested in forging with us? Would it incorporate technology trading? How would this affect your relationship with KISS?

Regards

Feaurius III
MIA Foreign Minister

Under the terms of our treaty, we need to get KISS's consent to trade Invention for Theology.

I checked save on CivAssist MIA have not Theology.

Had a talk with General W, its long so i will give a summary: They are most likely going to give us the screenshots for TNT capital and Mezza, so we can plan accordingly, and we have agreed to the treaty:

Josh says:
sounds good. I hope the business with the silks town didn't upset too many people on your team. It was cause for a lot of debate on our side... and we had this lovely note to warn you ahead of time... just didn't get sent in time with the turns flying by
casey j says:
i am not too happy about that, but i really wouldnt care if you would investigate TNT's silk town. Why will you not do that?
Josh says:
bah - I'm not sure (to be perfectly honest) - if it's a big enough deal to you, we may be able to work something out. Our team takes our honor very very seriously. We don't have any specific agreements preventing us from spying on TNT... but some percieve it as dishonorable. ... but we may be able to be pursuaded.
casey j says:
that is how i interpreted it. Given a "Swiss stance" as your diplomat put it, even the Swiss gave a lot of intelligence to both sides in the war.
Josh says:
(hey - the good news is that you know we won't be double crossing you at least! )
casey j says:
IMO, not team opinion, you have settled our silks, plan to settle our gunpowder, refused an alliance earlier in the game etc, etc. But cest la vie. When do you want to attack KISS or is that even been considered? We dont like THEM on our land either
Josh says:
Right - there's mixed feelings on MIA about the whole war you're having against TNT - we were hoping TNT's units would be able to focus on KISS... but that's water under the bridge now. But we understand that this is essentiall "your land" - and we want to be good "guests"
casey j says:
how are your relations with KISS?
Josh says:
lol - been rockey. Not a lot of love lost. but we have a pretty solid peace treaty - for the time being.
casey j says:
they act too big for their britches to us
casey j says:
pretty cocky so we are rocky too
Josh says:
(oh man - cocky describes them perfectly! ) hey - let's try to nail something down on this investigation of Mezzonite Keep - then we can move on to the treaty proper.
casey j says:
sure i can send you gold this turn and wont ***** about anything any more. promise
Josh says:
LOL - so you're offering us gold for the embassy and gold for the investigation
Josh says:
?
casey j says:
oh you dont have an embassy yet?
casey j says:
ok yeah i will give you gold for both
casey j says:
79 gold for investiagion, how much for embassy
casey j says:
you can give me both screenshots
Josh says:
yeah - that's part of our issue. uh... let me check....
Josh says:
64 gold for the embassy
casey j says:
so i will give you 150 gold for both
Josh says:
hey - I'm looking through our threads... it looks like we have pretty good intel on what TNT has moved into that town - would you be interested in just knowing what we know.... no gold cost at all?
casey j says:
sure but i would still like the capital and mezza screenshots, to avoid surprises
Josh says:
ok - just making sure we don't have an other option.
casey j says:
what do they have in their town according to your latest info?
casey j says:
they are mostly out of attack units it seems
Josh says:
well - I think we were going to look at some kind of an intel swap for that info.
Josh says:
(sorry - I'm really just the domestic minister for our team... so I can't promise a whole lot)
casey j says:
what do you want to know about KISS?

Josh says:
(I'm trying to make sure we're all clear - then I'll go fight for whatever you and I decide in MIA's forums)
casey j says:
i can investigate their city+capital too
casey j says:
i mean a city of theirs + capital
Josh says:
yeah - I appreciate that. But we've got an embassy with them as well - so no need for a 2nd party. Untill war breaks out, of course.
casey j says:
what kind of intel do you propose then?
Josh says:
(I think I miscommunicated there. I was offering the info we've just observed, for info you've just observed. No spying. But it sound like that's not really what you're after?)
Josh says:
ie - that wouldn't be a good substitute for the embassy and spying?
casey j says:
no thats fine, i didnt know what you wanted. No not a complete substitute, but what do you want to know in exchange for what you have observed?
Josh says:
If we're going to sell you the screenshots - then it will be a moot point. If we DON'T sell you the sceenshots - then we'll probably just tell you what we know - as a show of good will and trying not to be too difficult.
Josh says:
I'm sorry - I'm really trying to be clear and helpful - it's just hard since I'm not sure what the team will say to selling the screenshots....
casey j says:
Well with no express MIA/TNT contract disallowing said screens, I dont understand why you wouldnt, as that would be ideal for forging a new friendship into the Industrial Age.
Josh says:
yeah - personally, I agree.
Josh says:
so - let's get a final offer for me to take to the team.
casey j says:
Plus the gems and incense we can send you
Josh says:
so 150 gold for the shots - do you want to offer anything else to grease the wheels? (not trying to extort you)
casey j says:
I give you 150 gold for screens of capital and mezza. I can throw in gems in a few turns when we get them connected
Josh says:
ok - that sounds plenty generous to me. I'll take that to the team. I think there's a good chance we can make that happen.
casey j says:
good
casey j says:
now the treaty
Josh says:
yes.
casey j says:
article 1.2 states nonaggression for 35 turns
casey j says:
35 turns from what point?
casey j says:
turn 140?
casey j says:
or turn 142 or 143
Josh says:
from the signing of the treaty.
casey j says:
that is when we started trading
Josh says:
was our understanding
casey j says:
so now, turn 143
Josh says:
right - if we can get this thing signed.
casey j says:
alright
casey j says:
how close are you to chemistry?
casey j says:
i ask because we will need 2000+ gold to pay you for chem +banking+embassy stuff
Josh says:
we'll have it next turn, I believe.
casey j says:
alright
Josh says:
(it's actually turn 144 right now, actually)
Josh says:
(acutally!)
Josh says:

casey j says:
turn 144 hasnt started
casey j says:
it will on our next turn
casey j says:
but i see your point
casey j says:
so the treaty ends at turn 179, hopefully to be continued at that point with a new plan for Industrial
casey j says:
?
casey j says:
It seems we will be into industrial at that time
casey j says:
what to do about your free tech +TNTs?
casey j says:
not to get off topic
Josh says:
yeah - sorry. work stuff... uh - yeah, I think our whole team is eager to extend the deal once we hit the IA. KISS is our obvious enemy
Josh says:
but since we won't ever break our word, we like to have shorter deals that can be renewed... if that makes sense.
casey j says:
sure it does
casey j says:
do you have an agreement in place to get TNT's free tech?
casey j says:
as in tech for tech?

casey j says:
if not we will put pressure on them to get that freebie
Josh says:
originally we did - but I don't think they'll live to see that day.
casey j says:
ha they might, or might not. better to have a plan in place should they somehow survive
casey j says:
what would we be able to provide to get your free tech?
casey j says:
just somethig to think about
casey j says:
i know you are the domestic minister
Josh says:
probably lots of options - but yeah, lets try to get this deal done first!
casey j says:
and we would be interested
casey j says:
alright
Josh says:
I'll be posting this chat- so I'm sure it will get talked about.
casey j says:
sure
Josh says:
So - we're all good on article 1?
casey j says:
sure its fine
casey j says:
i cant remember, did you send astro or banking to us?
Josh says:
Astro
casey j says:
it was astro wasnt it, i know ive paid you the 100 gold +guns
Josh says:
yeah - we're all square on that
casey j says:
alright article 2 is fine
Josh says:
the whole thing? no negotiations?
Josh says:
(not that that's a problem! LOL )
casey j says:
no its fine, 1400 gold seems a lot for banking, but we can make that work for friends
Josh says:
yeah - that's the number that was suggested by RobiD - so we were going with it.
Josh says:
so - you think you'd go with the 1400 gold over the Military Tradition Trade?
casey j says:
yep
casey j says:
its a dead end tech
casey j says:
nice but still dead end
Josh says:
yeah - we're eager to have the Cavalry against KISS.
casey j says:
if you draw nationalism and get leos you could go to war soon
Josh says:
So - are you the president or the keeper of the saacred batter recipe or whatever for your team now?
casey j says:
yes
Josh says:
cool - congrats.
Josh says:
you guys are staging quite the come-back. very impressive
casey j says:
thanks, our forums are pretty dead, so its mainly kuningas, myself and robi running the show
Josh says:
decision making is easier that way at least!
Josh says:
well - we're glad to see you back on your feet as a team. We want to have friends when the KISS idiots come knocking at our door.
Josh says:
(which we expcet to happen shortly after TNT is finished off... or sooner)
casey j says:
i dont know, you too have a long nonaggression pact dont you
Josh says:
it ends here soonish. turn 166
Josh says:
hopefully that's not a state secret
casey j says:
not a big one if it is
Josh says:
so yeah - we expect to fight our first war right around then.
casey j says:
so treaty is signed and delivered?
Josh says:
Sounds good to me! I know our team already approved of the draft we sent - so if you agree - it's a done deal
casey j says:
alright we agree
Josh says:
awesome. My first diplomacy success
casey j says:
i will send you that gold this turn for the screens, so i hope you get that taken care of asap
Josh says:
ok - I think that can happen. I don't want to promise - but I can promise to fight for it in our threads.
casey j says:
alright, i will just send the gold, and hopefully by your turn you can have that worked out
Josh says:
will you be sending back a copy of the treaty with your seal? or do you want us to do taht for you? I believe we still have a copy of your seal from an old treaty.
Josh says:
with Homer running away from a Nuke plant... very funny
casey j says:
you can do that for us, thats fine
casey j says:
yeah i dont know where the doughnuts name came from but it is comical at least
Josh says:
lol - gives you a great theme for your towns. We're always ammused when we see a new one. Ok - well it's been a pleasure talking. should get back to work.
Josh says:
feel free to IM me anytime you have a question for the team
Josh says:
I stay pretty informed - so I should be helpful at least.
casey j says:
alright good talking, and meeting you. dont work too hard
casey j says:
alright, same goes for you.
Josh says:
Take it easy good sir.