People of Fanatikos,

I apologize for stealing the thunder of our FA Ministry, but the matter we find before us needs immediate attention. First a little bit of background.

Some time during the latest game session, we were approached by France to join their part of the alliance against Germany. Due to the prevailing wisdom of standing FA orders as well as the fact that they only offered Right of Passage agreement, we politely declined.

Not too long after, our embassy with France was opened. And during our tour of Paris, we were able to gain intelligence of advanced military training in the region --- something the French diplomat regarded as Swordsmen.

Impressed with what we saw, we left Paris aware of our military shortcomings but still felt sound in our relations with France.

Until today.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/DG7_bc1050_frenchthreat_(2).jpg

As you can see, French Swordsmen now stand at the door of Augean Stables, and while we are well defended by a small battalion of Hoplites I still have major concerns for the town's safety. Not to mention the safety of our workers unwittingly laboring to the south.

Our bluff called, I contacted the French Consulate immediately and found that we may join their alliance with no strings attached. But Minister Icmancin went to Rome and discovered this:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/DG7_bc1050_alliance_(2).jpg


Rome is willing to give all the gold it has for us to join their alliance against our world's most powerful nation, Germany! This development is significant and should be strongly considered for 3 reasons:

Signing an alliance with France should immediately neutralize their threat of our borders.

We will not have to offer tech to Rome to secure all of their gold.


We need to start discussing capture of a German city before they are vanquished from the world forever.

That's my pitch, Fanatikos. Please let me know what you think of this plan.


Respectfully,

Donovan Zoi
President of Fanatikos

I definitely think we should grab a slice of Germany before this war is done. I believe I said a while back that Germany would lose the war and France would be new power to watch out for. This was my case for GL in Augean Stables. Looks like you should've listened to me. :p anyway, go for the deal with Rome, since it will cost us nothing and they will pay us gold!! I'm not sure about the France one, maybe we could extort if we wait...of course if we wait, they might attack us... :hmm: decisions, decisions.

i's have to say that my immediate response is that we should sign both deals, the roman one because as greekguy said it will cost us nothing and the french deal because we really don't want to risk an invasion at this point. just the 2 cents of a reporter/retired judiciary official

Okay, well what's most attractive is the gold involved in the deal at the moment, the prospect of land is almost nohting becasue I'm posative that the AI will take up whatever land we choose to attack and destroy.

But perhaps even more vital in the long run at least for our nation, is the Combat experience that can be gained by this little war with Germany. IF we do go to war, we'll want to attack with the units that may be apart of the RDF, creating more experience for them and making them stronger for less money. The only way to get a strong military in a 5CC is to ahve an advanced and experienced military, the experience can come now from this war which should make up a small portion of the technology race that we are currently losing at the moment. The advantages are very nice and fine but oone problem at the moment,

LOGISTICS, the Logistics of our military at the moment is VERY small and consists of no specialized Divisions at all...nothing, we have what two arriors now and 5 Hoplites, (This Information is all from the Information Office from 1375 BC) This is NOT the Army to Fight a War with people, if we went to war right now and sent our Men into combat, it would weaken us instead of strengthen us. We need more units and as soon as the RDF plan if ratifyed that needs to be put in motion.

I hate to say it, but, at the moment war is not achiveable. Although we can sign the Alliance defnd our borders, and keep the money.

-Ranger99-

We don't have the iron connected yet, AND... if we're attacked, then it triggers a despotic golden age.

LOGISTICS, the Logistics of our military at the moment is VERY small and consists of no specialized Divisions at all...nothing, we have what two arriors now and 5 Hoplites, (This Information is all from the Information Office from 1375 BC) This is NOT the Army to Fight a War with people, if we went to war right now and sent our Men into combat, it would weaken us instead of strengthen us. We need more units and as soon as the RDF plan if ratifyed that needs to be put in motion.

I hate to say it, but, at the moment war is not achiveable. Although we can sign the Alliance defnd our borders, and keep the money.

-Ranger99-

You hit the nail on the head, Ranger99. If anything, this alliance deal is a wake-up call for our entire nation that we now need to put more funds into our outdated military.

The good thing about this proposal is that it eliminates threats from two fronts, allowing us to concentrate on the third. Perhaps we can hold off on the RDF during these 20-turn alliances and focus all of our energy on Germany. Or to defend against possible treachery, draft a smaller RDF for the time being.

I really do not want to turn this into a military thread just yet, so do you think you can open one and post a link here? We need to discuss the military aspects of these alliances as well.

We don't have the iron connected yet, AND... if we're attacked, then it triggers a despotic golden age.

So are you saying you are against the alliance idea? I need a bit more detail from your post. ;)

We risk a despotic Golden Age if we are attacked at Augean Stables in two turns, so that is a more immediate concern. Not that I think a despotic GA would be so bad, as it would likely help us discover Republic even more quickly.

Think of this as a cold war against Germany for starters. But a cold war that morphs into a real war as we become more and more prepared for it. We must remember that we need to beat the Romans and the French to (most likely) Berlin so that Governor RegentMan will finally have some work to do. ;)

Will do sir! *Salutes crisply* You are compltley right as well, these alliances are political econmical and a military factor.

Sadly though my specialty lies in the Military Aspect of it, so that thread will be created ASAP.

My opinions on the ohter side of the operation though is to probably take the alliance, as the gold is a serious sum, 125/25=5 That's 5 Barbarian Camps that we'd have to assault take and destroy to equal the amount of gold we'd take by simply signing this deal. So economically it's compltley safe and very good option

POlitically, we have most of the World arrayed agaisnt geramny, they won't be much of a power after the nations of the World are done with it, so as well as economically, it's alos politically safe.

Just my 2 cents though....

-Ranger99-

My opinions on the ohter side of the operation though is to probably take the alliance, as the gold is a serious sum, 125/25=5 That's 5 Barbarian Camps that we'd have to assault take and destroy to equal the amount of gold we'd take by simply signing this deal. So economically it's compltley safe and very good option.

Now that you mention the 125 gold, I found another benefit as well.

If we want to research Republic at 100% over the next 23 turns, we will have to run at a -5gpt deficit to do so. This FA deal will be enough to pay for that deficit in full, with 10 gold to spare.

Very Nice, this 125 Gold is a VERY attractive option as you say, I had forgotten about that, (Well not really Technology Dept. really isn't my place so I never even knoew about it in the first palce so...)

BUt that WILL grant us the Republic rather early, with leftover gold. So taking that into account Economlically, POlitically AND technology wise this deal is beneficial to us.

The only problem as I stated before is the Military Aspects of it.

-Ranger99-

Well, I suggest we wage war after two turnchats, the 23 turns will become possibly 15-16 turns, when Priapos grows and gets library. Maybe even less.
I think we can prepare a government change to republic, declare war on germany with this alliance in 10 turns time. We should run one more turnchat not declaring war.
See how the Priaposian library shapes up the research rate.

Upon knowing the exact time of republic, we should declare war at revolution day, and
send all units for a german city then. It will take us 15 turns to build up needed units to take one German city, either south or east. In the meantime, sell techs to romans and french to prepare them for signing the alliance and keep peace. a techdeal now will keep us safe until Republic is done, then the alliance kicks in after that.

to be honest, this is the only way to do it, and trigger a golden age early into
Republic for all 20 turns.

If we sign a allaince with the french would it stop them anyway if there decided to invade? If there triggered to attack i dont think i will, it will just cause a war against both and we will lose the game. They might just be moving through the area. they done this when i done the turnchat and we got freaked out, but they just moved on.

If there not going to attack, i am against the war. right now we are slowly bulding our nation and military. If we Do fight a war against germany any offense we launch will be token anyway. But we will risk our nation. On the other hand getting the other 3 nations genorus might be worth the small risk.

If one of our Hoplites is attacked and wins it will start our Golden Age. Do we want a Golden Age in Despotism? We need to wait until we change Governments. There are other ways to get gold.

Like the own Bismarck said, "A little caution outflanks a large cavalry". We cannot sign such an agreement having in mind only the gold the Romans will offer. We are currently too weak and poor to afford a war with Germany. We must wait until we are strong, build a large enough military force and destroy the germans in a decisive attack. This will take time, but we currently can't do anything except ruining ourselves for 20 turns with an attrition war that can cost more than we have planned, including Civantonia, if the RNG gods are furious.

Sincerely,

Civlord

Gold is good for the Tn'T Minister to hear..:D

While I am not good at wars, this is a great idea....

AND...if we get a Depostic Golden Age...think of this way...better than a Anarchy Golden Age...:D

Plus if we do wage war, may I suggest a defensive war...we can still play offfensive (sounds like a basketball games....:D) just to get a weak city or too....

So, what you think???

- Tn'T TP

What are our relative strengths vs the other nations on our continent? Might the French be after our horses, and will they stop if we have the only source available to them? Or might this swordsman be headed for the German town to our south, by the only direct route available, and we're worried about nothing?

Let's make sure we discuss and make this decision based on all pertinent information please. ;)

What are our relative strengths vs the other nations on our continent? Might the French be after our horses, and will they stop if we have the only source available to them? Or might this swordsman be headed for the German town to our south, by the only direct route available, and we're worried about nothing?

Let's make sure we discuss and make this decision based on all pertinent information please. ;)

We are weaker than France and Rome, and have average relative strength to Germany.

We don't know the intention of the French Swordsman, but the fact is that they have them and we don't. If a skirmish starts with France, how long before Rome enters he picture?

My alliance plan neutralizes both these threats during our time of military weakness. All we have to do is worry about our equals, Germany.

The time may have come to pick sides, people. Which side are we going to be on?

I don't know, DZ. We must be cautious now, as the germans can launch a counter-ofensive and destroy the roman and french forces attacking them. In this case, if we declare war on them, we would have to deal with Germany alone for a considerable time until roman reinforcements come. That's what I am worried about.

I am in favor of neutriality, and i find it cruel to declare war on germany because France threatens to invade. I dont think a MA with france will stop them attacking if they have all ready decided to*, and amagin our tiny military fighting a war on two fronts. If we are going to get attacked by France and if a anti-prussian Military Allaince will stop them, then we have to get it done before we next press enter, or france will invade anyway. Also we should look at diplomatic option if We do enter the war against france, we will want to instantly bring rome germany and persia into the fray, and prepare for a war of attrition on our western front.



*someone could test it, from my experince a MA will stop them attacking you, but if they are already at war with germany it might not. A MA allaince against rome would but i don't think thats a good idea ever.

I don't know, DZ. We must be cautious now, as the germans can launch a counter-ofensive and destroy the roman and french forces attacking them. In this case, if we declare war on them, we would have to deal with Germany alone for a considerable time until roman reinforcements come. That's what I am worried about.

And yet the Germans have lost two cities. Rome already has a Legionary encroaching on Berlin from the north.

From what I can see, Germany currently has Horses but no Iron. If we get some Horses up and running to send to Civantonia (along with a sentry to watch the east from a mountain, we should be able to anticipate any interlopers. From there, it just becomes a game of chess.

You are right, Nobody. We should avoid attrition at all cost, especially now that we are too weak and poor to sustain a war against foreign armies. We must remain neutral unless Germany is considerably weaken and we are sure that France will not declare war.

And yet the Germans have lost two cities. Rome already has a Legionary encroaching on Berlin from the north.

From what I can see, Germany currently has Horses but no Iron. If we get some Horses up and running to send to Civantonia (along with a sentry to watch the east from a mountain, we should be able to anticipate any interlopers. From there, it just becomes a game of chess.


I don't know, DZ. Maybe Germany has forces now ready to attack, and the roman strategies won't be enough to hold their current position. Anyway, Germany now must be spending all of her resources in military, and her armies are still formidable. I wouldn't consider such an abrupt declaration of war and invasion. We are not prepared for that.

Respectfully,

Civlord

I don't know, DZ. Maybe Germany has forces now ready to attack, and the roman strategies won't be enough to hold their current position. Anyway, Germany now must be spending all of her resources in military, and her armies are still formidable. I wouldn't consider such an abrupt declaration of war and invasion. We are not prepared for that.

Respectfully,

Civlord

Then how about an abrupt declaration of a defensive war?

I also have another question to the populace. Would your positions be swayed at all if the French Swordsman were to violate our territory next turn by making a beeline for Augean Stables?

Because if this happens, all the doomsday scenarios you attach to the Germany Plan ---the early despotic Golden Age, risk of counterattack, our lack of preparedness --- will likely land in our lap a mere two turns from now, much earlier than Germany could ever dream. Let's not forget about the impending threat that got this whole idea started.

Let us see! We cannot declare war on anyone now, and we still must improve our defenses very much. The Augean Stables has only a hoplite defending it. With some luck, that french swordsman can attack and destroy it capturing the city. And you say we must declare war on Germany? We cannot make miracles with non-exisiting pieces, you know that. If we sign MA with the french against the german reichswehr, then Civantonia will be exposed to german horsemen. And worst, if even with the MA the french declare war on us, then we will have a war in two fronts with two great powers, even three, because the romans can enter in the war against us and start sending legionaries to our cities. Then we are going to see if our tiny and underpaid army is going to protect us really. We must be neutral, but vigilant. If only France declares war on us, then we will have more chances of protecting our cities than if we declare war on Germany and France betrays us. If France does not declare war, then we must continue our neutrality policy until we can safely declare war on Germany and take a city from them.

Sincerely,

Civlord

From the looks of it, that swordsman is merely on its way to Germany. We needn't worry. Let us build up a stack of veteran warriors and use out great library saved money to arm them with swords. Then we can pick a side.

We don't have the iron connected yet, AND... if we're attacked, then it triggers a despotic golden age.
What she said.

If one of our Hoplites is attacked and wins it will start our Golden Age. Do we want a Golden Age in Despotism? We need to wait until we change Governments. There are other ways to get gold.
And what she said.

and then some more:

If Germany dies before the alliance is out, then our credit reputation is shot, because Rome is paying for 20 turns.
125 gold isn't so much. It will pay for the grand total of two warrior -> sword upgrades. I guess then that it is fortunate that we do not have more warriors than that ;).
We have no offensive force whatsoever.
Isn't it possible that those French guys are on the way to Germany, just trying to shortcut through our lands? These two scattered units do not impress me as a determined attack. It rather looks like reinforcements travelling to the front. Just give them a glass of wine and wish them well. Perhaps move an extra hoplite to the Stables.
Surely, if Joan has decided upon war, she would have done so sometime before her forces actually attack or invade. Meaning, if the French intend to attack us, there is no way we can prevent war.

Wow... Did I miss alot.

Alright. My 2 cents:

We have no offensive power. French troops are outside our borders. Romes Eagle is mauling the German Eagle... Hmmm... What is we conduct a series of deyaling actions against the Germans? Sign an Alliance with Rome for thier gold as well as an ROP with France, giving us more hope for peace with them. Our troops then destroy as much German infastructure as they can and pick of marauding Germans. We march a group southswards towards Heidelburg and encircle it, cutting of supplies. We do not have the power to take Berlin however, so after peace has been signed to the world, behind a wall of hoplite spears infront of Heidelburg, we can then converge an attack in the city at a later date: After draining it of all it can take.

The city-state Heidelburg will be needed massive imports. Heidelburg has little useful terrain: Tundra and grass. Production will be limited but expansion can occur. Encircle Heidelburg from outside its borders. The Germans are now desparate for aid: Which we will sell them. We will drain the Heidelburg economy untill it is of no use to us. We break relations, and occupy the State of Heidelburg.

Thats my 2 cents

I also have another question to the populace. Would your positions be swayed at all if the French Swordsman were to violate our territory next turn by making a beeline for Augean Stables?

No. Because he probably will, as the route from France to Germany goes through our lands.
Let's just move an extra hoplite to Stables. If the swordsman invades, then politely tell him that he has to pay tourist tax if he wants to stay. If he attacks, well, he is not going to take out two hoplites. The French armies are in Germany, so all we would have to deal with is a trickle of green grunts. Perhaps not even that, because in a short time they'll make peace.


Because if this happens, all the doomsday scenarios you attach to the Germany Plan ---the early despotic Golden Age, risk of counterattack, our lack of preparedness --- will likely land in our lap a mere two turns from now, much earlier than Germany could ever dream. Let's not forget about the impending threat that got this whole idea started.

It's a chance of war on one hand, against a certainty on the other. Let's not loose our heads over this.

You guys are pretty worked up over the Swordsmen....They're simply on thier way to Berlin.

If you look at the Report on the Siege of Leipzig, you'll notice that the Romans had 2 Archers and 1 Legion. While the French had only a single Warrior. Obviously France needs reinforcments on the front line. These Swordsman ARE simply they're much needed reinforcements.

Icamanin is right in asaulting Heidelburg, but I do not think that Berlin is attanable at the moment, UNLESS France or Rome attacks it and DOESN'T take it on thier first turn, we can sally on in and take their weakened garrisoned quite easily.

-Ranger99-

Let's keep this discussion going. I have pretty much said all I have to say on the matter, and appreciate all of the valid counterpoints to my plan.

I will let this discussion run for about a day more, and then present a poll. In the meantime, here are some pro and cons that have been discussed here:

Pro-Alliance

1. Immediate neutralization of possible French threat
2. 125 gold from Rome.
3. An opportunity to take Berlin before it is gone.
4. Immediate protection on two fronts.
5. Can initially reap the benefits of alliance without waging an offensive.

Anti-Alliance

1. We are not prepared.
2. Chance of Despotic Golden Age
3. Much ado about nothing --- French are merely passing through
4. No guarantee of solid alliance
5. War Weariness once we hit Republic
6. Our Iron is not even connected yet.

This is pretty much an even argument, although only I have been arguing the "pro" side. It's not so even in the fact that the "anti" points have been raised by several different citizens, leading me to believe that this proposal will die in the polls.

Even so, look at both sides of the coin and give me your final opinion based on the current position of the French Swordsman. After that, ask yourselves if your opinion would change if France were to advance on Augean Stables next turn.

Thanks again for such vigorous debate over such a short period of time. This public display of ideas is the lifeblood of our nation, and I encourage it to continue.

I think the most important reason at this point for the allliance is not the gold, it's the city of Berlin. 125 gold could be spent very quickly, but if France or Rome take Berlin, i have feeling they will raze the city. If we sign an alliance with Rome now, we can capture Berlin. Augean Stables and Civatonia could produce millitary units and once Iron is connnected, warrriors could be upgraded to swords. Capturing Berlin, IMO, is much more important than our reputation.

I think we should chill a bit with the alliance. I am certain Germany can hold its own.
WE should more worry about building our nation for the next 30-40 turns or so.

even though we are not prepared, this is pretty hard to pass up. berlin is really tempting and like greekguy said we could connect iron and upgrade warriors. the alliance would also get us money, and increase our rep. there is no doubt that the germany could defeat one legionary, they most likely have 2-4 spearmen. i will stand by defensive war, and creation of a RDF, that will send a few of it's units to attack germany. i suggest, connect iron next TC, turn or turn after that, we sign MA with france and rome to kill germany, upgrade all warriors to swords and send both of them to get berlin, have any free cities, perhaps olympus, augean stables, or ciatonia build swords. get 6 swords and send another 2 to berlin. the other 4 stay back as our RDF. that's my plan for the war with germany.
- Minister of Defense vikingruler

Horses are important as well....If we have any left over horses send them like I pointed out on my map, on a loping run through Germany to scout them out, and raze their land, as well as pick off any German units heading for the front.

Think of it as Sherman's March

-Ranger99-

good idea ranger, only thing is iron and swordsman seem like the major attacking unit we would use. also, if my plan for building swords go through and is approved we would use 3 of our cities building warriors or swords. the other 2 could build horses however.

good idea ranger, only thing is iron and swordsman seem like the major attacking unit we would use. also, if my plan for building swords go through and is approved we would use 3 of our cities building warriors or swords. the other 2 could build horses however.

Gentlemen, I am glad to see that the defense department will be engaged in any mission we undertake. However, keep in mind that this thread is reserved mostly for the discussion of the alliance itself.

Otherwise, carry on! And keep up the great work! :goodjob:

I will post a Poll tomorrow, afterc school (which on weekdays is an hour after this post time). I hope that we can participate to a minimal extent to gain benfit but also to expand our rep. Look at my post for a good idea for which we consider. Of course, after the Poll there will be days of planning so I doubt it will make the Sept. 15th chat.

Think of it as Sherman's March


:lol: You mean that guy who tried to depose the president? Well, he needs a forced march anyway :lol:

The guy that cut a 60 mile swath of Destruction through the Confedarecy in the bloodiest war the U.S. has ever been in. Sherman, marched from the North all the way to Savannah, murdering, looting and killing in a great sythe of destruction that the U.S. has never or ever will experience again. The Land he marched through still lisses its historic buildings and still feels the Great March.

Lol, really the Horseman March is just an added option IF we can't take Berlin or if we have the resources to do it.

But as for the Alliance I say we sign it!

-Ranger99-

Yes, I know it. But tht guy also was called Sherman.

OK, this thread has pretty much died out, so tonight I will post a poll. It will be a multi-choice poll with the following options.

Would you sign alliances with France and Rome against Germany:

1. This turn, based on current intelligence
2. Next turn if France advances on Augean Stables
3. Never. We do not need this alliance now.
4. Abstain

I am making this poll multi-choice to see if opinions will change to the "pro" side if Augean Stables is threatened next turn. If you have any problem with the poll format, please post it here.

There will not be an option to ally singularly with Rome or France. It is either all or nothing. Also, let me know if this poll would trespass on the FA's right to conduct a war poll. However, I really do feel that this should be polled first before we have Icmancin go through all that trouble.

This poll is the same as a declartion of war and it needs to go through the same steps as one (FA makes a poll house and senate vote yes on it)

Yes, DZ. The senate has to vote it.

Alliances are also within FA's jurisdiction, and as we are not yet at war with Germany we can't form the alliances and not declare war so the question actually is:

"Do we form alliances with France and Rome and declare war against Germany"

We also need something other than this turn, next turn, never, as there is no later option. The text with the never also contradicts that it actually means never, but rather means maybe later. So which is it? Would voting never here mean we could never declare war on Germany? People may want to wait until we have a few more troops to actually fight with before declaring.

FA needs to run this poll for it to be official. The Assembly can vote on the war bit and declare seperately if they wish, but they can't do the alliances to go with it.

I want three options DZ, respect these.

The Alliance 10 turns, 15 turns and 20 turns from now.

I want three options DZ, respect these.

The Alliance 10 turns, 15 turns and 20 turns from now.

Looks like it is out of my hands for now. If Minister Icmancin does not post a poll by later roday, then I may have to do so.

However, my preferred options would be: this turn, next turn (if advanced upon) or No (meaning we vote on it later).

10, 15, 20 is far too close together to be distinguishable, but I appreciate your input.

For President Zoi, or Minister Icmancin: To make the poll accurate you should state it in terms of "do we want an alliance now" or include a "no,not now" answer.

Provoluion: you're always looking for a definite point in the future on these "not now" kind of polls, like you want to trick us into not being able to say no.

:joke: about the tricking us part. :D

For President Zoi, or Minister Icmancin: To make the poll accurate you should state it in terms of "do we want an alliance now" or include a "no,not now" answer.

Provoluion: you're always looking for a definite point in the future on these "not now" kind of polls, like you want to trick us into not being able to say no.

:joke: about the tricking us part. :D

That's where it gets interesting. Because to be honest, I would vote "no" now (at the present time) since France is still outside our borders. However, I would change my vote to "Yes" to war against Germany if France were to advance on Augean Stables next turn.

The whole reason this idea was proposed was to pre-empt a possible war with France. And since not many seem to agree with the intent of this proposal, perhaps it should just die on the Assembly floor.

We are making this far too complicated than it needs to be. Based on the response in this thread, I could have posted an informational poll on this matter, been likely voted down by now, and we could have moved on to better things.

If people vote "Yes" to a war with Germany without signing on to the alliances, then we are in trouble. A simple vote on the war alone will not do.

My previous post might have been a little unclear. Option 2 in the proposed poll is OK, I was responding to option 3 by saying "never" is probably a bad word to use. :)

If we haven't decided whether to have an alliance or not before the play session, I recommend someone (FA or President probably) should put an order in the turnchat to stop if the French unit enters our territory. If there is a decision one way or the other on the alliance, then follow it.