The creation of this thread was suggested by our President, as he has stated that the Military Aspects need to be stated and reviewed as well.

So here we go;

The Link to the original proposal is right...here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=128434)

The POlitical and Military aspects of the Alliance are being discussed there, while this thread has been opened for the disscussion and creation of a Military Policy should the Alliance be made, OR if it isn;t made and how we should go about building our military FOR this Alliance and its possible operation.

But perhaps even more vital in the long run at least for our nation, is the Combat experience that can be gained by this little war with Germany. IF we do go to war, we'll want to attack with the units that may be apart of the RDF, creating more experience for them and making them stronger for less money. The only way to get a strong military in a 5CC is to ahve an advanced and experienced military, the experience can come now from this war which should make up a small portion of the technology race that we are currently losing at the moment. The advantages are very nice and fine but oone problem at the moment,

LOGISTICS, the Logistics of our military at the moment is VERY small and consists of no specialized Divisions at all...nothing, we have what two arriors now and 5 Hoplites, (This Information is all from the Information Office from 1375 BC) This is NOT the Army to Fight a War with people, if we went to war right now and sent our Men into combat, it would weaken us instead of strengthen us. We need more units and as soon as the RDF plan if ratifyed that needs to be put in motion.

That was quoted directly by me from the other thread, I briefly went over the Logistics of such an undertaking as well as the Rewards. Any disscussion adn/or Military policy os NEEDED in this thread for the best possible route to take, on whether to sign the Alliance or not to sign the Alliance.

EDIT: I whipped this thread up pretty fast and left out afew important details. If you take a look at the map, Liepzig to our east has been destroyed, to our South East, Lies Berlin, this city is VERY close to our own borders. Which offers a double edged sowrd here. The ability to take it and annex it making it the German city that we take. This offers good benefitsas it's very colse to our own borders and can become one of our core Cities relativley fast and be absorbed into our core.

But on the flip side it is CLOSE to our borders, therefore allowing German troops to make their way atraight into our lands, with minimal oppostion and NONE of the other Nations will be there to act as a buffer for our saftey, this compltley exposes us.

And last of all a city directly south of us, is also German. Thi gives us the Southern fornt to worry about, and if we Do sign the Alliance we proabably WILL face the brunt of the attacks as Berlin and the other city are right next to us.

-Ranger99-

Thank you, Ranger99, for the quick development of this thread.

Here is the region in question:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/DG7_bc1050_germany_(2).jpg

NOTE: Germany still has five cities total, which is why I included so much Fog of War in this shot.


While I too have concerns, there are two things to keep in mind:

Germany has its hands full, and will likely not have much on the offensive

Hiedelburg is a relatively new city that can be razed quite quickly without incident. We just need an offensive unit or two to do it.

However, Ranger99 is absolutely correct. Joining into this war would put us right on the front lines of Germany. Something to consider as we navigate through this momentous decision that will guide our policy for ages to come.

So, how do we position ourselves for the spoils of Berlin, if that is indeed our target? Do we now connect our Iron immediately, or do we take a little time to build up some warriors for upgrade first? Do we want to descend on Berlin with Horsemen only? Do we want to engage with Germany at all?

These are the questions, folks. Who wants to help out with the answers?

Thank you very much for the Screenshot Mr. President, got any more militwary related ones?

This one was very helpful. As you pointed out Heildeburg is a new city, which should have a Spearman alone defnding it, it's on Tundra and has no defensive bonus's at all...Easy take if we can churn out an offensive unit to deal with it.

Germany IS quite loaded at the moment, very true...So a small defensive force rather than a large one is needed, but we lack any basis of defnse at all right now (Other than garrisoned Hoplites.)

And 5 Cities, is quite a few! They must extend pretty deep into the Fog of War then, I wish we had better intelligence on this one right here, but that can't be helped.

If we sign the Alliance I propse a pre-build of a Horseman ASAP, followed quickly be a Swordsman as we connec tthe Iron as fast as we can to get some Swordsman out, who can later be integrated into the RDF if it passes.

At the moment I just don't see us taking Berlin....Which isn't very good as i'm estimating some 3 Swrodsman would be needed (At the least) to take the city, if at all. Those three Swordsman take quite a while to build. But anything less than that and Berlin is untouchable and a compltete wwaste of our time. Horseman cannot take the city, BUT they CAN raze the surrounding countryside, AND get deep into the German territory to find outa little more about their lands, which is vital for the War Effort.

-Ranger99-

i would delay the war for about 20 turns, likely right after we revolutionize. A revolt lasts 2-6 turns of anarchy, about the distance to a german city. the anarchy time should be the moratorium for the Golden Age, giving Germany 2-6 turns to die on a hoplite.

i would delay the war for about 20 turns, likely right after we revolutionize. A revolt lasts 2-6 turns of anarchy, about the distance to a german city. the anarchy time should be the moratorium for the Golden Age, giving Germany 2-6 turns to die on a hoplite.

And what do you propose to do about the Swordsman at our doorstep? What is the contingency plan if this FA proposal fails?

Locking ourselves in an alliance doesn't mean we have to fight right away. France and Rome are getting the added assurance that we won't be gunning for them either.

An immediate alliance protects us on two fronts so that we can safely do the things you mention. We can still follow your timeline for the attack whether we are still allied at that time or not.

I think we need to make the French happy for a 20 turns time, by a tech agreement, then create the alliance by turn 20, and be certain it is the right alliance.

I think we need to make the French happy for a 20 turns time, by a tech agreement, then create the alliance by turn 20, and be certain it is the right alliance.

Then we will be locked in at 20 turns when we may not want to do so. By getting in early, we can be assured of getting out when the time is right.

Do we really want to stay at war with Germany for long after our conquest of their city? NO. So why not begin a 20-year plan for the alliance now that culminates with the taking of Berlin? Then we end the alliance, and move on to the next victim. ;)

Also, does a straight up tech agreement have a 20 year life? Even if they give us gold per turn, just more reason for them to break the deal. An alliance against Germany will be more solid for relations.

Allright, Donovan Zoi, you persuaded me, we should conquer one German city, then end the war right afterwards. Yet, we need to time in the revolution, so I would say we enter this alliance by the end of next turnchat, or in the beginning of a turnchat two TCs away.

Very valid point, we want the War on the following condititions

First hoplite attacked right after becoming a Republic - about 26 turns from now maximum, triggers Golden Age.

Military alliance ends right after German city capture - about 28-30 turns from now, given flexibility for tides of war

We need the added security of an alliance within 10 turns or so.

I suggest setting up the alliance by the end of next turnchat, then judge the situation in the forums and prepare the war in detail for the following turnchat.

Turnchat 1 preparing for the alliance, entering alliance by TC end
Turnchat 2 preparing the Expedition Force
Turnchat 3 the German Campaign, turnchat ends with the end of the alliance.

That will cover 30 turns and handle all conditions.

Very good. We have a large picture of the Operation that we may undertake.

The Logistical side is still to come....

-Ranger99-

Mr. President,

First of all, we must think on the internal aspects of Fanatikos. We are yet too underdeveloped and our economy is not strong enough to afford a war with Germany. Since our next Government will be Republic, I even doubt that we are going to make war without having our cities rioting. Fanatikos cannot sustain a war for a large period of time, so I suggest we remain neutral for now. Only if Germany gets too powerful and inflict significant damage to France and Rome I would make war. In this case, if we are forced to, with a decisive strike, our troops can take Berlin and other important cities and make the Germans surrender. We must not make an attrition war: because this is 5CC, our economy is weak and won't be able to pay our soldiers for too long against mighty Germany. Let's adopt a "United States 1917" strategy, like President Wilson did. We must declare war only if we are sure we are going to win it quickly.

Respectfully,

Civlord

ALright from what I gather we have the basic timeline down, IF we sign the Alliance pac. Personally I think that we are basically ready if we can connec tthe iron quickly, and get some Horses, and build a Swordsman or maybe 2, 2 Horses and 2 extra Hoplites are ALL THAT I NEED for this war, at least for the capture of one city plus a few other operations.

Taking a look at the map I designed our first and foremost priorities if we go to war, are to firtify a Hoplite on our Iron, and then one in the Mountains to the East allowing the Hoplite to view and moniter all military movement on our eastern borders. That's our first priority.

The second thing that's easily achievable is to l;aunch an assault on Heidelburg, which is a brand new city, and will probably be defended by only a single Spearman. Taking Heidleburg would be an easy objective, yet not a primary one yet.

At the moment Berlin is out of reach and unattainable wothout heavy military build-up. But my last and final idea is a riskier one, but one that i think we can pull-off with miimal losses. IT's the big red line leading directly into German territory, to see everything they got and get up-to-date intelligence on the Germans.

One last thing that I didn't include was using the Warrior (Apollo) to moniter French and Roman movements into the German Lands which would be invaluable to telling us what we need to do militaryily.

Rememeber, this is only a basic attack plan, IF we sign the alliance.

Thank you, that is all.

-Ranger99-

If we decide to attack Berlin while Germany is at war with the others, the one thing we need to avoid is failing to capture it but damaging its defenses enough for one of the others to capture or destroy it. That means we need to either capture it in one turn, with overwhelming force, or keep a close eye out for other civ's offensive units and hold up our attack if they are in position to capitalize on a potential blunder.

If we decide to go on the offensive sooner rather than later, we'll need to change existing builds to horsemen or warriors (for upgrade after iron is connected) and consider pop rushing a 2nd set of units.

I think we should also plan for a war against france, which i think is more likely.

Ranger99, you have touched on two major points I was hoping you would: protection of resources and deployment of Mountain sentries. Great work!

Everyone must remember that in the beginning this is a defensive war, so we don't have to worry about winning it all at once. Perhaps we should add the contingency that the alliance proposal will only go into effect if France invades ourborders next turn. Would that event change anyone's mind about this plan?

I think we should also plan for a war against france, which i think is more likely.

Are you kidding? France and Rome are joined at the hip right now. War with France will only add Rome to our troubles shortly thereafter.

And if we are crafty enough (or rich enough) to get Rome to betray their lifelong ally, we will bring utter chaos to the region.

France + Rome + Fanatikos -----> Germany is a much more linear and sensible scenario.

Are you kidding? France and Rome are joined at the hip right now. War with France will only add Rome to our troubles shortly thereafter.

And if we are crafty enough (or rich enough) to get Rome to betray their lifelong ally, we will bring utter chaos to the region.

France + Rome + Fanatikos -----> Germany is a much more linear and sensible scenario.


Mr. President,

What I am affraid of is of a possible declaration of war from the French even with the MA against Germany. We must stay neutral, so we don't have war in two fronts. If we declare war on Germany and France betrays us, then we will have serious problems. We don't have money to improve our troops, we don't have money to recruit more peasants nor do we have money to support an attrition war against foreign great powers. If only France declares war on us, then we will have more chances of resisting than if we have the entire world against us, because certaily Rome and Persia will enter in this war.

Sincerely,

Governor Civlord

Now comes the question in general, is Berlin worth capturing. If it does not hold anything of value to us in wonders, then it should be razed.

What German city would you propose we keep then? It is the Expatriate Governor's position that Berlin is our target German city, unless many are partial to Heidelburg.

What German city would you propose we keep then? It is the Expatriate Governor's position that Berlin is our target German city, unless many are partial to Heidelburg.
Well, Heidelburg is useless to us and should be razed. RegentMan, as the Epatriate Governor, what value do you see in Berlin if I may ask. There would not be any culture buildings once Berlin has been captured. If we wish to capture and hold Berlin, I strongly urge the Governor to build culture buildings to prevent the city refliping back to Germany (I know its a small chance, but its still too small to take the risk).

There would not be any culture buildings once Berlin has been captured.
No city we capture will have culture, so that sentence is pointless. Berlin has the possibility of becoming an okay city.

No city we capture will have culture, so that sentence is pointless. Berlin has the possibility of becoming an okay city.
What plans are there for the city of Berlin?

What plans are there for the city of Berlin?

The plan would be to add it to our empire and build on it. What German city did you have in mind, CG? ;)

RegentMan, now may actually be a good time to post separate threads for each rival nation, to get an idea of how we want to shape the rest of ours.

Mr. President,

What I am affraid of is of a possible declaration of war from the French even with the MA against Germany. We must stay neutral, so we don't have war in two fronts. If we declare war on Germany and France betrays us, then we will have serious problems. We don't have money to improve our troops, we don't have money to recruit more peasants nor do we have money to support an attrition war against foreign great powers. If only France declares war on us, then we will have more chances of resisting than if we have the entire world against us, because certaily Rome and Persia will enter in this war.

Sincerely,

Governor Civlord

Interesting scenario, though highly unlikely. In my experience, it is very rare that an the AI will betray an ally so quickly, although I have seen them break the alliance to make peace.

There is definitely need for caution here, no matter which road we take.

Actually Civlord the deal with the Alliance is 125 gold from Rome to us. That's 5 Barbarian Camps that we'd have to assault and destroy to get the same amount of moeny in one turn as well as very possibly the razing of Heidelburg, and just maybe the Capture of Berlin. If we can raze Heidelburg and Capture Berlin, our main War efforts are over and from then on use Horsemen to clean anything that's not garrisoned inside a city.

We DO have moeny to pay for the troops, but we lack some resources, which measn that it could be a little while until we have the offensive power needed to make a push on Germany.

And as DaveShack said we CANNOT allow Berlin to fall into our 'Allies' hands. To protect against this I suggest once more using Apollo as a Scout up north to moniter Troopo Movement into and out of Germany, while we can then feel for when we'll need to take Berlin before our allies do.

-Ranger99-

Have we determined the IBT turn sequence? If we know where Germany falls in regard to France and Rome we could possibly use this to our advantage. If Germany's turn falls before either France or Rome the they could possibly weaken Germany before our assault. I'd much rather attack Berlin with 1 or 2 weakened defenders than with all of their troops fresh.

This is also relevent to DaveShack's point.

If we don't know the turn sequence then a DP will need to pay attention to what order troop movements are made during the next turnchat.

We DO have moeny to pay for the troops, but we lack some resources, which measn that it could be a little while until we have the offensive power needed to make a push on Germany.

How many gpt? I heard that our treasure is in deficit. We will need troops, and some of them we will have to support with gpt.

And as DaveShack said we CANNOT allow Berlin to fall into our 'Allies' hands. To protect against this I suggest once more using Apollo as a Scout up north to moniter Troopo Movement into and out of Germany, while we can then feel for when we'll need to take Berlin before our allies do.


Instead of declaring war, what about ROP with the germans and the creation of a demilitarized zone surrounding Berlin with our troops? It could be interesting. Berlin will remain intact and our "allies" won't be able to attack it because we are in peace with them. That idea was proposed by Icmancin, but now I can see a good use for it.

The money that i'm talking about is the moeny for the creation and upgrading of two Warriors to Swrodsman, and possibly one other Warrior Upgrade, this is the 125 Gold coming from Rome for signing the alliance.

And this demilitarized zone....Do you mean surrounding Berlin with 8 units to cover everyangle of the city?

With those 8 units we could just as easily TAKE the city of Berlin, and we don't even have those 8 units yet....

-Ranger99-

I don't know, it was only a suggestion. But Berlin will be essential to Fanatikos security, and we must make sure the AI won't take it. But if we declare war on the germans, the french may attack with that swordsman and we will have war in two fronts. We need to be cautious.

I believe that the French Swordsman are simply going to the Front. At the moment intelligence leads us to believe that the French have little or no troops in or near german Territory at the moment.

(I was lead to believe this by the Fact that at the siege of Leipzig the French only had a single Warrior participating in the Assault, and the Germans territory is mainly South from now razed Leipzig, so we can believe that the now dead French Warrior was their only Troops in the theatre.)

These Swordsman probably have NO intention at all of attacking us and are only on their way to attack Berlin.

If we sign the Alliance France will ahve even less of an incentive to attack us, and then our Military capabilities should sopar, and the experience avaiable to us during the war is priceless when the RDF is created, especially since after the war it will then be composed of battle Hardened troops and soldiers.

-Ranger99-

Well, Alea Jacta est. We are going to see if this french swordsman is not going to invade Fanatikos and is simply directing towards the German front. I don't trust the AI.