Started to contemplate the odd population drop in Dancing Banana.

My first thought:
settler produced on turn 33
barabrian sack on 34, with contemporaneous pillaging of a bonus food improvement.

:nono: It was a population drop

Turn 34 population of Dancing Banana was a static 1
Turn 35 population of Dancing Banana was a growing 4

>>>>>>>>>>>>

But I'd like to discuss something that I was uncomfortable with from the KISS Chat ...

Whomp was talking about the potential of forming a 3 onto 1 alliance ... against TNT ...

I felt it was against the spirit of the game to discuss this because none of us have yet to meet them in-game ... and all the bad feelings came from their explosive mouthpiece ...

So can we talk about this as well ... and perhaps the admins can comment also ... (I have sent them PM)

I see the source of my confusion: Turn 35 T5C screenshot is posted above Turn 34 Screenshot. I incorrectly assumed the earlier post was the earlier turn.

My amended thoughts, quickie:

Turn 33, settler built
Turn 34, static at size 1, due to shield maximization over food, possibly to rush warrior?...
Turn 35, two workers added to city, which will then put them back into settler mode.

It's possible their city was undefended, and barbs were close, so they drew their workers into the city, and rushed defender.

EDIT: As for an a priori 3 against 1 arrangement, I'm against: Whether is in the spirit of the rules (it is AGAINST the spirit) is moot. Once all the teams meet, we shall see the best way to treat TNT. It is not wise to tie our hands before we meet.

That is absolutely bizarre. I cannot see that it could possibly be worth joining 2 workers to a city this early in the game - workers are way too critical at this point.

My best guess is that the settler they just built was trapped by barbarians and rejoined the city - I think a settler is more likely than 2 workers because it seems that with 2 workers, they probably could have moved in different directions and the barbs couldn't get both.

I don't really understand a couple things still. First, to be size 1 with no growth their sole citizen had to be working a mountain or be a specialist. Neither makes a lot of sense at this stage. Second, how did they go from 1 with no growth to size 4? Merge 3 workers or worker + settler?

I need to understand the multiplayer mechanics more - maybe I will try a test playing multiplayer by myself later if I have time. For example, when do barbarians move? If a barbarian moved onto the tile they were working, would the governor change to a specialist? Would we see that during our turn, and would it be before or after their gold/food/shields were computed for their end of turn?

My guess is that they pop rushed a granary.

Barbs move at the end of the turn ... therefore the last player ie. KISS will see them move and also the other players ...

KISS just thought that Capitol lost ... therefore war with TNT

KISS through F-11 land control drop suggest D-Nuts attacked and lost capital by unknown enemy (TNT)

@FE: These things you mention in posts 6, 7, 8... Please, please PLEASE elaborate. You've dropped some subjects, some Indefinite articles, some pronouns, and some prepositions (at first glance ;)) and your posts remain ambiguous to me.

But from the essence I was able to distill, it seems that you have received word from KISS that Dnut and TNT are at war...?

I'm trying to follow this too, but I have the added luxury of being able to look at the save...

One of the items in F-11 is land area. On turn 34, our land area was 3800 square miles, and we were ranked third. On turn 35, our land area was 3800 square miles, and we were ranked second. Hypothesis is that someone else lost land area.

Questions - why do we think Donuts lost a town and not TNT? If Donuts are the aggressor they may not need to deal as desperately.

Why do we think their capital was lost? I didn't get that from the chat. If Donuts lost their capital, it will be obvious next turn because their culture won't keep up.

Edit - Donuts definitely did not lose their capital - Springfield is still #2 on the top 5 cities.

This evidence seems to be shaky at best. It is possible that we may have exactly the same land area and that in that case the game handels it funny (or would it put us at 2nd anyway?) PBEM seems to be weird as far as those types of mechanics.

Also, we can determine that unless TNT took a big risk with a military rush without even knowing the location of dnuts, then their military couldn't be much better then ours. I am not convinced that they are at war, and saying so in a chat to them could make us look like idiots :crazyeye:

OK Now that I am back from town and not rushing to shower, change and get bus for appointments ... I shall calmly and gramatically report :blush:

I have reopened the saves and checked not only F-11 but also F-8


Turn 34
Dancing Banana pop static 1
MIA F-11
>Pop is 3rd
>Land Area is 3rd
>Military Service is 1st

MIA F-8 Victory Conditions
% of World Population - D-Nut is 30
Power D-Nuts 135, MIA 132, KISS 130

Turn 35
Dancing Banana pop growing 4
MIA F-11
>Pop is 4th
>Land Area is 2nd
>Military Service is 2nd

MIA F-8 Victory Conditions
% of World Population - D-Nut is 27
Power D-Nuts 138, MIA 135, KISS 134



FACT 1 - Land Area Loss
> Either D-Nuts and TNT have lost a city

FACT 2 - Dancing Banana population rise
> Disbanding workers or settler

FACT 3 - % World Population D-Nut drop from 30 to 27
> Loss city ???

Not being totally intimate with game mechanics, does this support the theory ...

If required i will request further info from KISS ... let me know ...

Regarding the scenario ... I think it is a fair assumption that TNT's wandering warrior found an undefended city ... How many do we have ??

FACT 1 - Land Area Loss
> Either D-Nuts and TNT have lost a city

Will have to check with chamnix about how they determine your ranking in PBEM.

FACT 2 - Dancing Banana population rise
> Disbanding workers or settler

Interesting.

FACT 3 - % World Population D-Nut drop from 30 to 27
> Loss city ???

actually their percentage of world population dropped. We also fell to 4th place. More likely someone else (or 2 other people) made some population points so Dnuts and Us lost relative population.

This remains inconclusive. How many turns would it take a warrior to travel all the way from TNT to dounghuts, remembering that KISS is yet to achieve this fete and assuming that they are on a similar continent.

I think it is possible for a warrior to have reached another's city by now. Especially if that city was placed further from the coast than we have.

Will have to check with chamnix about how they determine your ranking in PBEM.


I can't help here - I have never played PBEM before.

The pop loss could just be settler or worker production also.

The land area loss is really the only "evidence" we have. We still can't tell who is the aggressor, but based on Donut's tech choices, TNT's UU, and Donut taking extra time, it seems more likely that TNT is the aggressor.

Regardless, I think if the Donuts are under attack, they will come to us for techs. I think we can afford to wait for them, then reveal just how much inflation there has been since the last time we spoke.:evil:

Will have to check with chamnix about how they determine your ranking in PBEM. (..)The ranking in the F-11 screen differs not from single player games. If you are (shared) number 1, you are displayed as number 1. It doesn't matter how many others are equal to you or how others are doing in other fields; if in the displayed fields (pop, land area, productivity etc.) you are number 1 (or shared number 1) you are displayed in your F-11 screen as number 1.
So being number 2 in a field means that someone has more than you and the rest have equal or less than you.

Thanks RIK

Another chat with Tubby Rower


KC Venters: hi fe!
KC Venters: this is Tubby Rower from KISS
fe3333au: Hi Tubby?
fe3333au: yep
KC Venters: I don't have long to talk
KC Venters: You wanted to know about our info from F11 correct?
fe3333au: could you expand on the data re TNT vs D-Nuts
KC Venters: basically our land area was 2nd last turn
fe3333au: yes
KC Venters: this past turn (turn 35) our land area and military service went to 1st
KC Venters: without us building a city, growing in pop, or building a military unit
fe3333au: but TNT may have lost a ity instead of D-Nuts
KC Venters: correct
KC Venters: TNT joined either a few workers or a settler to their capital
fe3333au: so assumption is D-Nut but TNT may very well be the loser
fe3333au: Either way their is definite evidence that their is conflict
KC Venters: correct but we will know for sure which, if not both, of them lost a city next turn when we can compare scores
fe3333au: yes
KC Venters: D'nut came from your east correct?
fe3333au: yes
KC Venters: we have already set sail to our west to find what lies in the blackness
fe3333au: good we go the other way
fe3333au: I feel really comfortable about us sharing
fe3333au: nd honest
KC Venters: there is a possiblility that our two countries could make out greatly from the war on the other continent
KC Venters: you trade with the nutters and us trade with the TNT'ers
fe3333au: Unless we meet TNT first
KC Venters: correct but I'm assuming that their continent is symmetrical to ours
fe3333au: but eitherway we according to agreement will let the other team know contct has occured
KC Venters: correct
fe3333au: I was in the process of asking if you believe in the symmetry of the Meleet creation
fe3333au: lol
KC Venters: I suspect we'll be contacting you within 5-8 turns if things are symmetrical
fe3333au: Ok thanks mate
fe3333au: Just woke up ... so still abit slow
fe3333au: 5.30am
KC Venters: I don't believe that they (whoever wins the war over there) will be able to defend a continent from two sides before rails
KC Venters: oh it's ok. 3:32 pm here so I'm ready to go. :-)
fe3333au: good point ... why do games also seem to end up with brute military
KC Venters: ???
KC Venters: Its easier
fe3333au: Yeah ... I prefer using other methods ... more challenge
fe3333au: good night mate
KC Venters: After the world is ours to share we can look for another race to run
KC Venters: c ya later
fe3333au: I like your thoughts
KC Venters: nice chatting with you


Big information ... KISS is afloat and heading west :eek:

And a PM from KISS ... in responce telling KISS that I was a little confused and if they could explain their thinking ... I stress again that I said that it was me and not MIA that was confused ... :D

Foreign Minister,
Based on our knowledge of F11 we know where we stand in land area. With this knowledge we have disseminated the possibility of a lost city on the other continent to either war or volcano. Volcano seems highly unlikely and without military techs we presume it happened to Donut.

Another thing that makes us suspect something is happening is based on Donuts request for a delayed play. I suspect their team needs to discuss quite a few things.

Tubby is our valued Idiot Shaman so if you need more I have cc'd him on this conversation.

Hopefully this helps. This is a copy of the conversation.

BTW I dl'd AIM last night so hopefully I did it right and I can join the next conversation.
Major Idiot Whomp
re suited to bridge players who engage in open bidding rather than poker players who disguise their strengths. It is in this spirit that our shaman share
fe3333au: But they must have renamed the other city then
KC Venters: barbs could explain that stat but not loss of land area
fe3333au: I see your point
fe3333au: Oh and thanks for opening ... I prefer this also
KC Venters:I have to leave in 5 minutes so...
KC Venters:do you think donut may be more willing to talk about military techs if they've been attacked?
fe3333au:So let us assume that
fe3333au:I was just typing this same thought
fe3333au:They if in a very bad position may just out of vengence want to unload all assetts to us
KC Venters:Do you think that the art of putting the alphabet together onto tablets could be gained?
fe3333au:stringing words and concepts onto a hard medium ? ... hmmm ...yes indeed
fe3333au:also fighting enhancment skills
KC Venters:Is this something that can be organized from the MIA end, and shared with the northern green ones (ie KISS)?
fe3333au: to trade to them
Skippyshutt:what do your young people make of this
KC Venters: we agree that the nutters need to put up a fight
fe3333au:Oh of course ... we are Favoured Nations after all ... and I would say that this is how good friends act
fe3333au:Our yound ... and old ... in fact I'm sure all who speak wand listen when we meet would be most favourable to this
fe3333au:*young
Skippyshutt:?
fe3333au: 8and
fe3333au: YES we would ;)
Skippyshutt:aah
Skippyshutt:forgive me, as chief idiot of naval operations, I do not offen partake of the diplomacy thingy
fe3333au: So I will instruct the D-Nut ambassador to begin urgent talks
Skippyshutt:yes
KC Venters: He should know to press the fact that we know a city has been lost
fe3333au:YES
fe3333au:definitely
fe3333au:I would think that they should be less arogant this time
KC Venters:indeed
fe3333au: very condescending they were at our last sit down talks
Skippyshutt:old wise peiple hope so
KC Venters:Whompus MAximus III is downloading AIM as we speak to keep dialoge going
KC Venters: Is there anything else that we can aid you with tonight?
fe3333au: I am sure that you will soon meet ... It is frustrating but we cannot workout how to give you contact
KC Venters:in due time, in due time
Skippyshutt:can we add bawhomp@yahoo to this conversation?
fe3333au: Not that I can think of ... I await the parchments so we can lock it away in a safe place ... I thank you all for being open ... a sign of great future deeds together
fe3333au: Sure anyone I like meeting new people
KC Venters:Contact us if the nutters need proof of such knowledge
KC Venters:of the lost city
fe3333au: I have about 15 minutes left before i must take to the soothing waters of the bath house
KC Venters:aaah the bath house.... co-ed?
fe3333au: I will but I think we are good ... land area on F-11 ...
fe3333au: I have attendents who are pleasing to the eye
KC Venters:I must go but will leave the chat open for recording purposes only
fe3333au: all a legit government expense of course
KC Venters:good night all
fe3333au: Thankyou and well met
Kentharu1:good night
fe3333au: cheers
Skippyshutt:good night all. more idiots will be back next time

I really feel that this togetherness with KISS is a beautifull thing :love: ... they have proven numerous times that they trust and are willing to share ... many of the time first to offer ...

At the same time I am not proposing for us all to don glam metal costumes and face paint :evil:

Another meeting occured ... logged Here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=3098627#post3098627) post 113

Started with Peter_Grimes and later Prez and I discussing the war on the other continent ... we then brought KISS in and then we also brough Emp.Nap into the fray ... The above is only a log of the all together chat room ... i feel the other is replica ... except Peter did wonderful editting job and kept our secret info ie. our predictions of rival city numbers :thumbsup:

Here's something interesting from the UN renaming thread.

It starts with our esteemed colleague bringing up a hypothetical:

FeariusIII:
How do you know it [city] has not been seen ... land unit with more than one movement point or a naval unit or even an aerial unit ... all these can pop in and have a good look around and then disappear again ...

Provolution of TNT:
Don't be too smart for your own good, we are turn 30 or so on a balanced map.

FeauriusIII:
Not sure what you mean ... but in future could you be a little less aggressive or provocative with your commentary !!!

Provolution:
The more I read of these threads, the less I feel like entering agreements in this game, just letting you know.

killercane of Dnuts:
Provolution, those 15 Mounted Warriors on your doorstep might not give you a chance to enter into any agreements. Sorry for the spam. On topic, I dont have any preference on city/unit renaming since any trickery would easily be spotted by the higher powers.

FeauriusIII:
Sorry now your comments are totally unrelated to the thread topic ... I was simply pointing out scenarios where a city's name may be viewed by a team without the owner being aware ... So please stop spamming the thread !!!

Provolution:
Haha 15 mounted warriors, that is 450 Shields, not very likely with 31 turns of play.

Looks like Dnuts taught Provolution a very painful lesson. We should certainly invite Killercane over for some :beer: and thank him for that.

The timing of Provo's comments (turns 30 and 31) combined with our understanding of a possible warrior sacking a city turn 35 is simply delicious.

TNT now 5 1/2 hours late, with no posted request for extension. Not very polite.

I checked into their playing history, and they've been very good about playing on time.

34 they played and sent in 1 1/2 hours,
35 p&s at the deadline,
36 @ 1 1/2
37 @ 2
38 @ 1 1/2
39 @ 3 1/2
40 @ 2
41 @ 29 1/2 and counting.....

How fitting that this post follow the one above (#21)

TNT is now 4 3/4 hours late, with no posted request for extension. Not very polite.

No need for me to check their playing history - it's right above this post ;)

:eek: Wow we have seen the boarder of TNT ...

What is the next step

Letter of introduction? ... if so how worded ...

They are fighting Nuts and have not responded to KISS ... should we hint that we know things :mischief:

:clap: finally we all know each other :clap:

Have we officially made in-game contact? That is, did they appear in F4, or do we have to wait one more turn before we send them anything? In any case, it is a good idea to write the letter now, so we have something prepared for next turn.

I don't think we made contact this turn ... and I have heard a rumour that C-H maybe the TNT ambassador, although Emp is only one who can confirm ...

Eitherway ... I would think a friendly, but straight approach ...

>Invite them to talk
>with a possibility to share information
>possibly trade technologies ***
>and hint that we may be in possession of some information that may be of interest to TNT ... (which would be our suspicions that Nuts and KISS are trading or at least have traded technologies in the past)
>Nice gift could be the Homer Small Brain JPG (Nice Ice Breaker)

EDIT ...

*** once we have a leaderhead we can actually mention specificx technologies if we want to.

You know, have we established what me want to get from a relationship with them?

They were cold to KISS, and they are fighting DNUT. Maybe we should just sail on by and wait for them to come asking things of us. Play it aloof - the image we'll be showing is "Yes, we know you are there, we can see your borders. So what? We don't really care all that much"

The will (I hope) be confused by this, and hopefully they will initiate contact. I just think it might be a better tactic to leave them be for a while. This is the last contact of the game, (imagine if Rik allowed respawn!), and they may be just as anxious for it as we are. Let them come to us, it will change the geometry of the bargaining table.

I have put my hand up to be the ambassador for TNT. I wonder if I will have any work to do. :hmm:

I say give it a go ... we can only win

You never can tell when a silver tongue may work politely :p ... where the babbles of past and agressive taunters will be ignored ... :mischief:

I'll wager all the Tabac in The Black Hole they don't return our calls....

Prove me wrong, Classical_Hero!

@General_W - did you happen to notice if TNT has Mathematics (did the cost go down for us after contact)? I think that is the only thing it is possible they have that we lack. If they have it, then we can try to swing a trade for it. If not, then I guess we send them a note saying hi, nice to meet you, but there is nothing to talk about because they won't have anything to offer.

I believe Math remained steady - I did glance at it - but didn't write anything down.

So - my guess is that they don't have it... but I wouldn't bet my life on it!