Tricked you! This isn't an Atheism thread. Should Scientific advances permeate across the countryside from a founding city so that certain advances (like Iron Working, for example) take a while to reach other civs, or even far-away cities?

At first, it may seem slow, but if you have functional roads the science will spread quickly to your far-away cities. This would also create a sort-of Great Library effect, as smaller civs can keep up (relatively) by receiving technology from larger neighboring civs.

Why research at all then? First off, you'll meet civs that already have Swordsmen, so watch-out. Secondly, these "closed borders" will also effect spread of technology. Finally, if you are the French and have, say, "Roman Iron Working", then the Romans will get a small culture (or monetary) bonus (much like the Civ4 religion system).

What do you guys think?

Cool! Wow! 3 votes! Feedback? Is the poll THAT comprehensive?

Try to write it down once more when u sober up. :D

7 voters. 1 + 2 + 3 + 3 = 9

Somebody's taking advantage of the multiple choice poll...

Seriously, I think this is a great idea. Particularly since all techs are now optional.

A good idea.
the only addition to it - i think not only civ, that researched a new advance (rome in above example) should get culture bonus, but also a civ that got a foreign advance (france) should lose culture points. That system could make cultural competition more important aspect of the game at expence of the most popular so far military victory scenario.

Ya, I thought of this a while back when I read about Greek and Korean pottery permeating throughout their respective regions.

Should France, in the previous example, be able to research Iron Working? They already know how to work Iron but paying tribute to Rome the entire game may be unfair. Maybe 50 turns after researching Iron Working, Rome will lose the ability to collect revenue/culture, no matter who has or hasn't the technology. I kind of like this idea because it shifts the emphasis away from pure research speed (which, I think, Civ4 has also done) to stragedy (should I have Open Borders and allow France to have Roman Iron Working?).

What other holes still exist in the potential implementation of this idea? Maybe we can find an easy solution and hopefully make it a bit less complicated (as seen in the polls).

A main problem would be that science is hectic in more cramped conditions, depending on the balance between tribute and tech cost this would be uneconomical.
As an idea it's a good imitation of the real world, and feels 'neat' but I am unconvinced of it as a game element, however I could easily be swayed here.

PS. Having relative research levels impact on culture comparisons and the chances of cities turning etc is a good idea. (whether to factor it into with culture or run it seperately I don't know)

"Cramped conditions"? Do you mean, 3 civs on a small island?

If anything, this model will facilitate the overall technological progression and reward the civs investing in research with culture.

Do you mean that if Rome is technologically advanced France could just leach off of it, at the expenxe of Rome's pocket-book?

One way to combat this may be to reduce research to the city-level, instead of civilization-wide. As is already in the game, each city dedicates a certain portion (% defined in the Advisor screen) of its revenue to scientific research, in the form of "Beakers".

I'm jumping on a limb here (or off one) but perhaps at the start of each round of turns (or every 5 rounds?) 1 "Beaker" in all of the cities in all the world will produce a technology. This is kind of like the lottery and therefore would contribute less to strategy.

The resulting factor would be that if France and the other civs decided not to dedicate funds to science, then Rome would catapult through the tech-tree at maximum velocity, faster than technology could reach France (especially if the French have never met the Romans). The result would be that Rome could sneeze France off of the map.

Again, though, I don't know if this is a good solution because I don't think I recognize the problem that you pointed out. Could you explain further?

Yeah, I basically mean what you say in paragraphs 1 and 3.

If Rome is miles ahead technologically then France can wait for the goodies to roll in. The balance is about whether or not France pays for 'free' techs, if yes then France is screwed 'cos its shelling out to the Romans and can't research those techs for a while (according to earlier ideas). If France doesn't pay then it's not fair for the Romans as France can avoid tech spending and then steamroller Rome with a massive (if slightly disadvantaged techwise army).

What do you mean by the 'Beaker' lottery?

Ya, I guess if Rome spends the money on technology then France can spend money on military. A hundred swordsmen can defeat a few riflemen.

The "Beaker" lottery thing was a half-baked idea so that the rate of technological progress is standard, no matter who is researching and no matter how much they spend in research. If only one person buys lottery tickets (funds research) then they are the only civ that receives new technology. As a result they gain cultural and technological superiority. If everyone buys lottery tickets (funds research) then new technology is more evenly distributed among civilizations.

This is pretty much the same as the existing model where you spend money and get technology except it is dependent on the research of other civilizations as well.

The trick would be to balance the rewards of other civs using your technology and the penalties for using technology from other civs. There could be a direct monatery tribute between the two civs or even (as was suggested by Ded Moroz) a direct cultural tribute to the advanced civ. I like the culture/science trade-off more than the gold/science trade-off, because there is already a gold/science trade-off when researching.

What other kind of trade-offs would work? Perhaps Roman citizens begin living in French cities?

How about having the recipient civs only receiving a certain percentage of the tech completed, so they can decide whether to finish off the research based on what they've learned from the founding civ and pay a tribute, or research from scratch. A proper balance can then be struck simply by the amount of research that will be completed, and the value of the tribute. Certain techs should not be passed on at all.

So (again, refering to the perennial example) the French receive knowledge of half of Roman Iron Working. France has the option to research Iron Working as normal or pay Rome for the Roman half and research the remainder theirselves? The result would be that France can get Iron Working sooner and Rome has the oppurtunity for making a profit off of their early research. This is like buying/selling technology via diplomacy except being able to purchase portions.

True, this method provides for elementary balancing (tribute based on portion of research bought); although, I fail to see how it also incorporates the geographical spread of technology. On the other hand, I'm not one know for my ability to read between the lines.

One interesting situation that could occur in the original model is that while Roman Iron Working is spreading into France, French Iron Working may be researched in the French city of Rouen. The two versions of Iron Working would continue to spread to the other areas that have knowledge of no type of Iron Working. Should then, the French leaders be able to forbid the use of Roman Iron Working in France and then allow French Iron Working to continue spreading? Or should those French cities still practice Roman Iron Working?

I think the key introduction is the concept of city (instead of civ) based techs.

What might be good is if Every city has to research Iron Working (train blacksmiths, etc.) However, if neighboring cities have discovered Iron working it becomes MUCH cheaper, the discount depending on communication/transport/political ties between the two cities..and the number of cities involved. (so that the modern city of Los Angeles will get ~ 99 % discount on researching Nuclear Fission if the City of New York has it... but Ancient Paris might only get a 10% discount if Rome had just discovered Iron Working)

So (again, refering to the perennial example) the French receive knowledge of half of Roman Iron Working. France has the option to research Iron Working as normal or pay Rome for the Roman half and research the remainder theirselves? The result would be that France can get Iron Working sooner and Rome has the oppurtunity for making a profit off of their early research. This is like buying/selling technology via diplomacy except being able to purchase portions.

True, this method provides for elementary balancing (tribute based on portion of research bought); although, I fail to see how it also incorporates the geographical spread of technology. On the other hand, I'm not one know for my ability to read between the lines.

The knowledge would still be spread geographically (based on the distance between capital cities) over a variable amount of time (modified by roads or whatever). I'm just saying that partial knowledge would be given instead of full knowledge (to represent understanding of the new tech). The whole point of this would be to allow extremely primitive civs to catch up a bit. The amount of time it takes for the spread of knowledge would be another balancing factor.


One interesting situation that could occur in the original model is that while Roman Iron Working is spreading into France, French Iron Working may be researched in the French city of Rouen. The two versions of Iron Working would continue to spread to the other areas that have knowledge of no type of Iron Working. Should then, the French leaders be able to forbid the use of Roman Iron Working in France and then allow French Iron Working to continue spreading? Or should those French cities still practice Roman Iron Working?

France's knowledge of iron working would spread at a slower rate than Rome's because they learned it later, according to a ranking scale. France would also receive less of a tribute than Rome would. If France researched iron working on their own, then France would not be practicing Roman iron working at all, but Roman iron working would continue to spread through France's borders to compete with the spread of French iron working.

That is a not so complicated as the original idea. A difference would be that technology no longer spreads in a dynamic fashion (like religion will in Civ4). Either you guys are focusing too much on the gold/science trade, or I'm focusing too much on civ ownership of technologies. :)

Hmm, I misunderstand your complete idea then, because the only modification I thought I was suggesting was spreading partial knowledge instead of full.

@dyinhere, sorry I didn't see your post

So, France doesn't have to pay for the Roman portion? That seems fair enough. I was thinking each city has either one or the other, but this could work too. I like it.

My example was that Roman Iron Working originates in the city of Rome. In 2 turns it reaches Veii and in 25 turns it reaches Tours. France, which is behind in the Tech-race researches Iron Working in Rouen (It could not research it in Tours because that city has no need for such knowledge, they already have it).

The difference between our two models is that in mine: technology starts at a single city, instead of each city, within the civilization. This way, once Rouen researches Iron Working it should be given an equal diffusion rate because it too begins in one city. It is only a matter of time (and space) before the remaining French cities, like Paris, adopt either French Iron Working (perhaps, Rouen Iron Working), or Roman Iron Working. France would receive tribute equal to Rome based upon the number of cities practicing French or Roman Iron Working (naturally, Rome would receive more)

In your model, I'm guessing neither is hindered by the existance of the other? All Roman cities know Iron Working within the first turn? Would a city like Tours have knowledge of both Iron Workings? Thanks for answering these many questions.

EDIT: agian, I missed your post. I still don't completely get "partial knowledge". Does this mean the rest must still be researched? Does Rome benefit from tribute if France still can't Work Iron?

Oh, I see. Yeah, that's a helluva lot more complicated. My initial suggestion was based on the assumption that the whole civ is immediately aware of the tech, which then starts spreading from the captial city. When it reaches the capital city of another civ without the tech, they gain partial knowledge of it, and must finish research (work to understand it) in order to use it. This would be a lot easier to implement, and be easy to balance.

City-level diffusion is too unwieldy IMO. I would have to put more thought into how that would work. :)

It is not all that complicated, or new. I just explain more than I need to sometimes. Thankfully, you were able to decipher what I was trying to say. Technology will spread much like Religion will in Civ4. The difference, I guess, is that each tech is like a whole new religion system.

Hmm... How to explain this simply....

One of the new screens shows a map, on which many overlays can be placed. One level is religion. Each technology will have it's own layer. Of course, once every city is aware of a certain technology that layer will become useless (or, after 50 turns it will become useless).

This is by no means simple, but I think the computer can handle it easily and the only dimension it adds to gameplay is the ownership of certain technologies (for 50? turns).

Is this; more clear? Less clear? More convincing? Less convincing?

Ownership means exclusive possession of a technology that no other civ can research until it finally reaches that civ through the diffusion process?

Any civ can research any technology, as long as that technology is not present in any of your cities and as long as you have not already researched it.

When I said "Ownership" I mean't like a patent; "Roman" Iron Working means that the Iron Working is from the Romans, until 50 or so turns when the "patent" runs out and it becomes just "Iron Working". Rome receives tribute (of money or culture or something) from any city as long as that city is practicing "Roman" Iron Working.

I know have not explained it fully. Anything else that needs to be flushed out?

Essentially, the Romans get credit/kudos for working out how to... work iron first.

I think this system is an excellent idea.

Defining a few different levels of diffusion - so there's an ability to restrict technology to a degree due to 'national security', but this would impact that technology's use in the parent Civ - see Time magazine's online article on the restriction on crystal circuits ...

Thus, a more open Civ, not restricting in such a way not only receives 'kudos', but also receives other associated benefits, such as to it's economy.

Simply, this could restrict to unit production, but disallow any city or land improvement, and anything else...

Say, 3 levels':
a) National Security restriction -as above.
b) closed border restriction - reduction in diffusion and kudos.
c) open border - no restrictions.

These could either be automatically set by diplomacy and a tech-flag - such as: If at war with any 1 or more civs, certain techs are automatically flagged 'national security', in addition to experiencing the 'closed border' restriction.

This hands off approach is easy to use, but I, personally, would prefer one more hands on - such as manually selecting at discovery whether to define a paricular tech as national security restricted.

The other two options could require no tick or further effort, and work quite naturally and automatically...

I was only thinking of two levels (closed/open). Defining a technology, once researched to fall under a third or fourth level would be very interesting. You should be able to redefine these over time, I suspect.

How does the "national security" thing work? When you say this I think of current American policy but I know it can be used and defined anywhere. Does this mean France knows of Roman Iron Working but can't obtain the means of utilizing it? Or is "national security" a further tightening of closed borders, whereas the normal "closed borders" allows for very slow diffusion?

"national security" could be an option flagged by the player or AI at 'discovery' of a 'tech'.

Flagging this would restrict the tech completely from diffusion - and disallow any benefit to the discovering Civilisation, except to allowing the construction of units.

Thus, it would not allow land and city improvements or civics and religion - not to mention providing no economic benefits. Also, the Civ misses out on 'kudos'.

All in exchange for preventing the spread of a particular technology, presumably at a time that might provide an advantage to a foe, or potential...

Thus, if Rome were to "national security" iron working, it would become utterly unavailable to France unless they were to 'discover' it themselves, or appropriate it via espionage.

Good, that would be useful for many of the military techs. We could add that too. If they keep the same research system that they use now, this could still be added.

Any other input about the pros and cons of this model?