We have received the following response from TNT

Greetings and salutations Robi D!

Thanks you so very much for your invitation to sit and chat a bit. I am called donsig and I have been chosen to speak for my people. My brothers and I are interested in these 'fine technologies' you speak of and would like to hear more. Do they come in various colors and sizes? I'm afraid my people are poor. We have no 'fine technologies', only these old animal skins we drape around our bodies. Our bronze spear tips enable us to gather many such skins. We look forward to sitting with you in your stone dwellings for we are tired of sleeping in the outdoors. Can you now please show us these 'fine technologies' you have?

donsig

It all sounds very promising, how ever i note they have not said that they either have masonry or IW. This is probably because they don't want to give any info away.
I'll write out a response shortly and post it for viewing, but i want to check, if everyone is happy with swapping alpha for mason or IW.

This the letter i've drafted to be sent if everyone agrees.

Greetings donsig,

We welcome your offer to trade with us. In a meeting with the ministers of my government they have authorized me to offer you the fine technology, Alphabet. We will be happy to trade Alphabet for one of your technologies, that is fair and equitable for both our great nation (For instance we would consider Masonry a fair swap).

As you may be aware our time to take our turn runs short precluding us from more expansive talks, however if our two nations continue along the path of acting in good faith and friendship towards each other, then we see no reason why we can not come to even more fruitful trades in the near future. We look forward to hearing your offer.

Robi D

Seems reasonable to me. I'd prefer masonry if it's to be 1:1 so we can then sell it to MIA and get an effective 2fer.

Letter looks good, Robi D. It seems you just earned yourself an ambassadorship :).

Since there was no objections and time is running short i have sent the letter unchanged, hopefully we will have a response before we need to take our turn. I hope they go for masonry too, hence the ever so suttle hint in the letter.

I have been contacted by MIA via pm. I suspect other members have been as well. What is the timetable for moving the save foward?

*edit* We requested a 48 hour extention and have had the save available for 49 hours. Did the extention get approved? Does this mean we can hold the save for 72 hours total?



Dear magnusmarcus of the Doughnuts

We have noticed the delay in sending the turn and are therefore concerned as to your health ...

Our Diplomat Emperor.Napoleon is very eager to chat with you ... can you make yourselves available to him via IC

or I am very much available on AIM (fe3333au)

So do not be shy we will bring the beverage of your choice if you bring a box or two of those delicious assorted donuts.

Yours sincerely

Feaurius III
Foreign Minister MIA

Tnt has just sent this. So whoevers available can play the turn now, hopefully we can get the deal done next turn

Greetings Robi D,

I have sent word of your generous offer back to my people. My people must discuss the proposal and vote on it. Unfortunately this is not a process that can be completed in a swift manner. Please be patient with us and understand there is nothing to be gained at this point by putting things on hold. Let time march on. In the mean time, are there any other technologies your people are willing to put on the table?

donsig

They are obviously trying to pump us for information without giving any (they have only admitted to having BW). So in spirit of mutal distrust and tentative cooperation ;) i have drafted this respose. I have dangled the carrot of writing for two reasons, one it follows from alpha and gives them more reasons to accept that deal and i'm hoping that since writings realtively expensive and important, they will have to open up with what they have. Again please add your comments/suggestions/ideas, i would like to send it off fairly quickly as i see MIA want to talk to us as well, that way we'll know were we stand with TNT and can look to get the best deal.



Greetings donsig,

We understand that your government has to discuss our offer. As for other technologies we can offer, we have recently discovered the fine art of Writing, however since you don't have the Alphabet technology at the moment which as you know is a prerequisite for writing. If you do take us up on the offer of trading for Alphabet, do you have any technologies that you could trade us for Writing? If so then we are more than happy to discuss possible trades.

Robi D

Not sure about telling them about writing. I think that they cannot see us in their diplo screen yet, so let's just send the turn on. We still have a few turns left on philo, so no hurries.

I don't think they really have anything to trade for writing apart from IW, so my line of think here is to get them to come out with what they have and are researching because they have been very secretive, plus it gives them more reason to do alpha deal.

Greetings donsig,

We understand that your government has to discuss our offer. As for other technologies we can offer, we have recently discovered the fine art of Writing, however since you don't have the Alphabet technology at the moment which as you know is a prerequisite for writing. If you do take us up on the offer of trading for Alphabet, do you have any technologies that you could trade us for Writing? If so then we are more than happy to discuss possible trades.

Robi D


Let's trade then, and don't appear scared. Or they may discover our city has no garrison.

If the empty city is such a worry for you, I can assume you are sending units towards it ? Or are you playing the "we aren't scared at all" game in such a way that you don't even send reinforcements ?

I'm asking this because I can't remember seeing a picture of the "after situation", only the "there's a warrior on our doorstep" picture.

A spanner has been thrown in the works, this is a letter i just received from TNT's rep donsig

Greetings Robi D,

I regretfully report that your trade offer has become moot. A fine warband led by Dareios (a great friend of Xerxes who leads the war party near Cruller) entered a small village and the people there have given us an alphabet! My countrymen were quite excitied by this free gift though very disappointed that we would not be able to use your alphabet. My people are still eager to trade with yours. Since your people desire to build stone dwellings we are quite willing to show you how this is done if in return you would show us just exactly what it is that one does with an alphabet!

donsig

I'm going to reword my previous letter a little and ask them what they have to give for writing, since thats the only possible trade with them atm, to see what they have to say. Also we need to pop some of the goody huts asap as they wont be there for long.

If the empty city is such a worry for you, I can assume you are sending units towards it ? Or are you playing the "we aren't scared at all" game in such a way that you don't even send reinforcements ?

I'm asking this because I can't remember seeing a picture of the "after situation", only the "there's a warrior on our doorstep" picture.


I can answers this since i ended up playing the turn. No reinforcements were rushed to the situation as there is no possible way to get there in time to stop the town being destroyed, not could we pop rush a warrior in time (all these options took 3 turns, they could destroy cruller in 2), so the fact that it is a singular warrior and their willing to trade with us, it was buisness as usual, which is a calculated risk. Also there window of oppertunity is small, they would have to attack immediatly to succeed, so we'll see what happens
*fingers crossed*

Due to TNT discovery of alphabet, this is the amended letter i sent, hopefully they will have a good offer to send back, but in the meantime we should see what MIA are willing to trade.

Good day donsig,

Let us be the first to congratulate you on your good fortune. While we are disappointed our Alphabet trade could not take place we are nevertheless happy to continue to seek other trades with your great nation. As you now have Alphabet we are willing to offer the fine art of Writing, which we recently discovered. However as I am sure you understand, Writing is of much greater value then Alphabet so we would require a more substantial offer then Masonry to trade for it. Is there any other fine technologies that you have in your possession or will have in the near future to trade for Writing? I look forward to hearing from you soon, so that we can continue to build on the good relationship our two great nations have.

Robi D

WAR with TNT!

The Persian warrior has entered our territory, captured a worker, and is in position to capture Cruller next turn.

I'm going to hazard a guess we won't be trading with these guys for a while. :mad:

Here is the declaration of war.

DECLARATION OF WAR 2320 BC, PRESENTED BY GRAND VEZEER DONSIG

The People of Iron hereby officially acknowledge (and rejoice in the fact) that a state of WAR exists between themselves and the People of Iroq. We are brave warriors who came in peace but we were apalled by what we saw. Poor Iroqi women toiling in the mines while the Iroqi men sat around drawing weird shapes in the sand and pretending these shapes were sounds, even while their children live in dwellings made of straw and sticks. Once the Iroqi women saw us we were irresistable to them and they begged to be allowed to come to Iron where they could live in strong houses made of bricks. The men of Iron in Xerxes' war party took pity on the good looking Iroqi women and took them to their bosoms. The not so good looking Iroqi women were made to write down this message and were sent back with it to the men of Iroq. We have but three things to say to the men of Iroq:

1) You should treat your women better.

2) You should not accuse others of breaking rules until you have a code of laws.

3) We are willing to hear what you are willing to offer us to end this war as long as you grovel sufficiently.

Surrender now and pay us a fitting tribute or prepare to be absorbed into the Iron empire.

Grand Vezeer Donsig Shahanshah Provolution

of the Grand Ironic Empire

Attached is the National Iroqi Mascot, the Iroqi Hunting Dog "Gnawing Creep"

Ok point 1 seems to be a poor attempt at humor but i just dont get point 2, when have we accused them of breaking the rules :confused:

as for point 3 i will draft an response to send to donsig, depending on what we decide

On the suggestion of a few people i sent out a message just to see what TNT were looking for in a peace settlement, here is the response.


Greetings Robi D,

In answer to your recent message my people have instructed me to tell you we would consider an acceptable and honorable peace between us if you treat us with honor and respect, pay us a tribute of 10 gold now plus 1 gold per turn in perpetuity; send a group of Iroqi men (a worker) to husband the Iroqi women already residing with our people; and teach us all you know about writing, Code of Laws and map making. If you are inclined to grant us due respect, these *fine technologies* (as you once called them) and send us the gold and worker, we are inclined to end the hostilities between us.

My people await your reply.

donsig

PS - all your goats are belong to us.

They dont want much:rolleyes: , just 10g + 1gpt forever a worker and Writing, CoL and mapmaking??? Interesting that they think we have mapmaking but more interesting is that they still havent got writing, which means they have gone for maths, or the techs towards monarchy.

We should counter by killing there warrior and then send a reply asking if 10 gold and Code of laws is enough. But we need a iron clad agreement that they will not invade us again for aleast 30 turns. Also when they say it is impossible to accept 10gold and code of laws, tell them we are willing to increase our tribute as long as the gurantee peace. Also ask for a formal chat, rather than exchange of messages.

Rather ridiculous. There's no danger atm, so I don't see the point in making peace, certainly not if we pay for it. Giving them a perpetual tribute, or any workers, just means defeat in the long run.

It's good to know what they want though.

STAY AT WAR!!! The reason we tried really hard to get MW was to combat TNT. WE MUST destroy this threat not to mention their offer is absoulutley prepostreous and would never be accepted.

I've written a reply to TNT's letter. I'll just make it clear i am not looking to make peace with them, its just a ploy to see if we can dig up some info. If TNT believe we are looking for peace then all the better, as they wont know our true positon:) . I think it was Mao who commented of the importance of diplomacy during war with his talk, talk, fight, fight, talk quote. Anyway here it is.


Greetings donsig,

Thank you for your reply to our letter. Now before we get into the technicalities of the agreement such as 1gpt indefinately is unworkable and mapmaking is an expensive tech, My government would like to know, if we were to agree to a peace settlement, what assurances can you give us that you wont just agree to peace and then continue your war plans and break the treaty when your immortals arrive at our cities.

Robi D
Foreign Affairs Consul, Doughnutia

PS- You can have all the goats, we prefer women.

very good. keep making the peace. keep them talking then we will burn down there capital and hang Provolution (we all know hes calling the shots over there)

Great letter. Short, sweet, and doesn't reveal anything but that there offer is outrageous. Hopefully we can bide our time and build up a grand army of Mounted Warriors and destroy TNT. Even if they bring in an army of immortals our MW's will obliterate them!!

This is the latest response from TNT

Greetings Robi D,

The people of Iroq, as assurance against our aggressions, we will send you one Prince Strider. Comes packed with an important sounding title (he really does nothing) and several insane and completely random comments. You will fall to your knees in honor of his psyche and vanity. You may keep him for 20 turns, at the end of which we will have to take him back.

Aside from Prince Strider and 20 turns of peace we offer the Iroqi people no assurances. Once the peace treaty ends the peace ends unless another treaty is signed to take its place.

My people are not as learned as yours but we do not see how 1 gold per turn in perpetuity is unworkable. As long as your people have gold and pay us this admittedly token tribute it is workable. Do you forsee a time when gold will be as scarce as goats in Iroq? I must remind the Iroqi people that our terms include Iroqi subservience to my great people. The Iroqi must show us due respect and pay us tribute. Once the tribute stops, so does the peace. For now we will not ask for gold in perpetuity. We will ask for a lump sum of 20g now and a payment of 2 gold per turn for twenty turns. We will renegotiate the amount of this tribute if and when the time comes to renegotiate another peace treaty.

Are your people willing to send husbands (a worker) for the Iroqi squaws now living in our lands? Your message was mute on this.

Your message also said nothing of writing and code of laws. Are we to assume that you are willing to teach us these two things for peace? My people are ignorant of the cost of map making. It may well be an expensive tech for all we know. Tell us, how many Iroqi cities is it worth?

donsig

P.S. We are also tired of Prince Strider seducing our women so you would be doing us a great favor by showing him your hospitality for twenty turns...

Now am i missing something, because what on earth is a prince strider?
Otherwise basically they are saying we only guarantee peace for 20 turns, which means nothing since it would take them over 20 turns for the immortals to get to us and if we want a longer peace then every 20 turns we have to give them everything we have.

They are obviously very confident of their position atm, personally i would say overconfident, or maybe they are try to bluff a little here and are trying to make their position look better.

we should reply in a way to keep the cooperation going. Maybe say we are willing to give Writing and Code of Laws.

Now am i missing something, because what on earth is a prince strider?

I guess it's a hostage :D. Someone they want to get rid of, so it's not a very good hostage. And apparently he is not mounted :p.
[Strider is one of the people on their team.]

Otherwise basically they are saying we only guarantee peace for 20 turns, which means nothing since it would take them over 20 turns for the immortals to get to us and if we want a longer peace then every 20 turns we have to give them everything we have.

Nail on the head.

we should reply in a way to keep the cooperation going. Maybe say we are willing to give Writing and Code of Laws.

I'd say not...

Otherwise basically they are saying we only guarantee peace for 20 turns, which means nothing since it would take them over 20 turns for the immortals to get to us and if we want a longer peace then every 20 turns we have to give them everything we have.

They are obviously very confident of their position atm, personally i would say overconfident, or maybe they are try to bluff a little here and are trying to make their position look better.

Sounds to me like they see going pointy stick against us as a do or die situation. If we successfully resist, they look to end up in 4th place.

It could all be a ruse too, who's to say they are actually planning an offensive at all? We might want to try to get the other two teams to reveal their experiences with TNT to see if our impressions agree.

I'd say not...

Just to keep them talking, then they will spend more time talking rather than planing a invasion. I dont think we should give them anything.

I do believe it is a bluff. They really can't think we wouldn't have done all we possibly could to obtain Mounted Warriors so they can't call military a bluff. It will take around 20 turns for their Immortals to reach us, it will take our MWs half that time so we can easily decimate their forces with startegic raids. anyway, we should send back something like this:

While your generous offer is tempting, we can't agree to terms described. For instance the gold amounts are outrageous and the worker you DEMAND is prepostreous. Not to mention the fact that we are not stupid, 20 turns of peace is all you treacherous bastards need to send an army of Immortals right to our doorstep. Best Regards, Team Doughnut.:D

That will probably not be sent but those really are my feelings.
LETS DESTROY THE PERSIANS AND TAKE BACK OUR WOMEN

I don't really get the Prince Strider thing either.

In response to TNT's last letter i have sent this off.


Greetings donsig,

We have not found been satisfied by your assurances. To give you writing and Code of Laws plus 10gold ect. for 20 turns of peace isn't exactly worth our while. The fact that you could not attack us in any serious form in the next 20 turn anyway makes signing this peace agreement rather pointless. We would be giving you technologies for nothing. If you would like to change your terms then we might be more agreeable to your proposition, as in its current form it's of no interest to us.

Robi D, F.A. Consul for Doughnutia

PS- You should get your men to learn from Prince Strider, as we find their goat fettish rather disturbing.

Greetings Robi D,

I think the letter speaks for itself, complete tripe really

You forget that the current price of peace includes map making, 2 gpt and a worker as well as writing, code of laws and 10 gold. Your people would do well to remember all the terms. Perhaps you should write them down somewhere. I would do that for you but I know not how. Funny though how I can remember all these details without your fine technologies.

If your people think that twenty turns of peace is pointless then we will not debate the issue. We will only tell you that the longer you take to submit, the higher the price you will pay for peace in the end. Showing us proper respect now will make subsequent terms more lenient whereas continued resistance will bring progressively harsher terms.

Choose wisely.

donsig

Wow, TNT is really, really arrogant. We must stay adamant with our stance. No peace unless it is a fair trade which is nothing. They should realize we will do everything to get Mounted Warriors who are a major risk to them. Therefore the agreement should not only end the threat of TNT but keep us from destroying them. I suggest sending back, something saying, unless we have a peace treaty without giving into your demands the war will continue and you will regret it.

The beast has spoken, if you guys read my little console thread you would notice i sent Welcomeing PMs to all the foreign nations, just to introduce my self, i in no way commited us to anything just said hi.

Greetings Donsig representative of the No-named peoples,

I send you this Formal note to introduce myself as the new Foreign Affairs Console of the Doughnut lands. Although our nations are currently in a formal state of war, relating to your unprovoked act of aggression upon the doughnut people, and your subsequent invasion I still feel the need to introduce myself, so that in the future you will know whom to address diplomatic correspondence.

Recent negotiations between my predecessor and yourself have come to a brick wall, but I still remain hopeful the in future we may restart formal relations. My door is open anytime you wish to begin negotiations to this end. If at anytime you wish to make contact with myself you may do so by Private message, or emailing/messaging Greystar0@hotmail.com.

Fondness regards,
Always your obedient servant



Nobody Nobodazine
Foreign Affairs Consulate of Team Doughnut

i sent similar messages to the other nation execept without the little nastyness and i also sent them a picture of some doughnuts.

Anyway my little 2 minute message incouraged a large reply which i think is funny as it must of took them time and well thats funny :)

Official communique from the Ironic People
Greetings Foreign Affairs Consulate Nobody Nobodazine,

Please excuse the form of this message. My people still have not learned to draw sounds so I am forced to reply the old fashioned way, via slave messenger.

I must say I was quite surprised to recieve a messenger from the Iroqi, our war having gone on for so long. It is a wonderful time for both our peoples, is it not, thanks to this war which has cost both of us so little. I am dismayed that your message refers to our supposed unprovoked act of aggression and subsequent invasion. As you must know we merely rescued some of your women from the Massacre of Cruller. I hardly call that an unprovoked act of aggression. As to our subsequent invasion, I fail to see how the puny force we sent towards your lands could be considered an invasion! Throughout this entire *war* it is the Iroqi who have been the agressors. It was and Iroqi war party that attacked and killed our little band of explorers led by Xerxes. It was Iroqi who razed the town of Cruller. It was crazed Iroqi warriors riding those four legged beasts who attacked the escort of the Ironic minister who was heading towards Iroq for a surprise state visit. It was Iroqi who ambushed our beloved Shahanshah Provolution as he sat guarding the Sacred Jungle. The Ironic soldiers who valiantly perished on that hill and in the Sacred Jungle will live on in Ironic memory forever. In their honor we have dubbed our soldiers Immortals.

Now we will admit that our great Shahanshah, Provolution, did go a tad overboard from time to time in his relations with your people and we can see how that may have contributed to some ill feelings between us, was it really a cause for war? Our Shahanshah has passed on to immortality thanks to your crazed warriors riding those infernal four legged beasts. Yet this is truly a golden age for both our peoples. Why spoil this glorious time with more bloodshed?

The brick wall is no more. Let us try again to negotiate an end to our differences. We only ask for two things.

First, that your people treat us with the respect due to us. Your communique was a good start but accusing us of unwarranted aggression and invasion is neither respectful nor friendly.

Second, as is evidenced by the form of this message, you can see we are a backward people. But if there is to be peace between our people, we feel that we should have a more equal relationship. Your people can draw sounds. Your people can ride the four legged beasts. Your people know the secrets of the Great Doughnut and His mystics. In order for this to be established you will have to teach us the secrets of some of your fine technologies, so that we can better understand you ways and customs.

Do these things and we will have twenty turns of peace. We can offer no guarantees beyond these twenty turns. Your people can look upon this as a brick wall if they choose. We would look upon it as twenty turns that can be used to build ties between our two peoples, twenty turns to work together to form a friendship, twenty turns to prepare for another twenty turns of peace.

Since our differences erupted into armed conflict the world around us has grown. We now know there are other potential friends - and potential enemies - out there. We are not alone and perhaps we should realize that when it comes to this world we are truly on the same side.

I eagerly await your people's response.

donsig
Grand Vizeer of the Ironic people.

well most of it is puffy rubbish but it did show they are lessening their demands. Now they just want our tech, no slaves or tribute. although personally i find this demand outrageous i guess i should show the people. also 20 turns is pointless because this is how long it takes their army to get to us.

should i reply? or should i ignor? my message was just a hello, they are proposing war. i could reply trying to negoiate peace even if we dont intend to sign it. what do ya think?

The response was quite funny, even a touch poetic, looks like our mounted warriors have beaten some sensibilities into their little heads.

I must say its quite a surprise, they have gone from wanting all our tech, gold and workers to just 2 tech, i wonder if we razed one of their cities they would lower their damands even further:D .

Not that i'm advocating peace but it would bring some benefits, however they wont be getting anything from us. What i would find an exceptable peace agreement it this.

The large strip of jungle is to become a netural zone.
Either side of the netural zone is our respective zones or spheres of influence.
All their units are to leave our zone and go back to the jungle of their zone and ours will do likewise.
Once this happens, any of their units entering our zone or vice versa would be tantamount to a decleration of war.
As for the techs, i am happy to give them writing and horseback riding, however i would ask for currency in return (they just researched maths, which they swapped with MIA, i guarantee they'll be doing currency).

I don't know if anyone else thinks this would be acceptable or not, but this would be the minimum requirements for peace in my view, not that we need to rush to much to make peace as i would like the oppertunity of taking out at least one of their cities.:)

i agree with you robi, the most important thing is that any agreement secures us, no point making a ceasefire for 20 turns and having their immortals swarm us as soon as the treaty is over. I will draw up a proposal to send off, but there is no need to rush we are wining afterall and really there.

Heres what i think we should reply,


To The Grand Vizeer of the Ironic people.

Dearest Donsig,

Let me start by saying the people of Doughnutia are deeply appreciative of your peace proposal, I was simply sending you a greeting and you return with a grand road map for peace. It is also a very encouraging sign that you have lowered you demands, if both our nations move in this fashion we may be able to build a lasting peace between our people.

What the Ironic people have to understand, the single most important thing for us doughnuts is security. It doesn’t matter how you mix your words, this war of northern aggression was begun by your nation. We have no interest in a ceasefire; we don’t want to give the Ironic military 20 turns to place an invincible army of Immortals on our northern border. For this reason any Peace Treaty we sign would require 30 turns of guaranteed peace and the establishment of a neutral zone between our nations.

As for your requests of technology, the lands of homer will not be extorted, but we are willing to teach you how to read and write, also if you need to know how to mount your beasts our folk will teach you. But as you are aware wars cost money, and this war has wounded both of our economies. From what we understand the ironic people have begun a process of minting there own money or are attempting to discover this technique in exchange for our writing and horseback riding technology we would require the secrets to your currency.

If you agree in principal to these terms I thing the next step we should take is a formal chat to discuss matters things like the Neutral Zone would need much discussion. You must also understand that any peace agreement would need to be ratified by the Doughnutian Legislature.

Thank you for looking over this proposal and we a wait for reply.

Yours magnificently,

Nobotti Nobodaroney
Foreign Affairs Console of Team Doughnut


please comment, also check my spelling ect

Let's leave this proposal open for discussion for a couple of days at least, as it could be seen by TNT as a genuine offer, and we want to be sure before we make such an offer. We also need to put anything to a vote, make sure in all your communications that nothing is official without approval of the citizens.

30 turns isn't that much more than 20. If we're going to the trouble of talking about a treaty, I'd like to see an estimate of when we'd be ready to beat up on them, and make the peace last at least 5 turns longer than that.

As for terms, we want them to return our women (surrender the workers accompanying their Immos by leaving them undefended prior to the cease fire taking effect) and pay us tribute, maybe 5gpt for 20 turns. If they take these steps then we can discuss technology trading.

The above is really just shooting from the hip, I'm not sure exactly what we should ask for. It's pretty clear we should offer something at least as far off what they would reasonably want as their offer is away from what we would want, so if there is compromise it will end up centered.

At the same time we should line up MIA and/or KISS as an ally so that if TNT breaks a ceace-fire we can get a willing accomplice in knocking them off.

One other random thought, if we were close to MM we could make an agreement which has a clear land neutral zone but leave the water route unspecified. Then if we find ourselves back at war we can have an assault force waiting in international waters.:evil:

the best thing about a neutral ground is that our units are faster than theirs if they cross the border we will crush them.

Nicely done nobody, a very good response. I agree with daveshack, there is no need to rush and we need a fair amount of discussion as this is a big descition for us. Also it would be good to get one of the other teams on board if can work out an agreement to support us if they try to attack us again. I think we would have a better chance to convince KISS, since they said they would like to steal TNT's furs, and also the fact MIA lied about not having MM makes me suspicious of them. So come people of doughnutia, tell us your views

I personally think that this war should not be ended lightly since we have an advatage at the moment and I believe we should explotit that.

But if we do enter into a Peace Agreement I believe these should be included to what DaveShack has said:

In addition to the workers that are given to us in any agreement, 5 workers still belonging to TNT should begin to remove the jungle, we get to dictate as to where they work and they can not be escorted. (Robi D could use please PM me, I need some help here.)
We are allowed to station 2 MW in the Jungle Neutral Zone.
Our warriors, I mean (1,1,1) units not soldiers in general, and non-combat units are not restricted to our Zone, theirs are.
Our Navel units that do not carry units are allowed into their coast and sea territory.


Explainations of these demands:

Because Immortals can only move one per turn, it won’t help them but it helps us. But the most important reason is they will have to pay for the extra workers and they get them no particular benefits by clearing jungle.
This way we make clear that any breach of the Peace will result in the forfeiture of those 5 workers (or as many as we can catch) and a quick reaction force. They won’t be able to take cities with just two of them but they can catch workers, pillage improvements, and to harass them.
This way we can keep our eyes on them and can settle any where with a warrior protecting the settler and then ship in troops via the ocean.
Self explanatory.


I know that they will not acquiesce to all these demands, but any good bargaining secession begins with demanding more that we expect and thus as they whittle down our demands, they think they are doing good in the bargaining secession when in reality we are giving them freebies.

I’ve color coded these demands to their importance:
Blue --> Most important, must have
Green --> Middling important
Red --> Least important, give away first.

I also support teaching the barbarians who to read and write for the price of all of their tech, half of their treasury and a modest per turn teacher's fee. ;)

-the Wolf

Nobody as you requested here is an edited copy of the proposed treaty, one question though: is the spelling of "Vizeer" intentional, it should be Vizier if you are trying for the Ottoman office? I ask because Donsig used the incorrect spelling too. Maybe we can teach them better spelling too. ;)

To The Grand Vizeer of the Ironic people.

Dearest Donsig,

Let me start by saying the people of Doughnutia are deeply appreciative of your peace proposal, I was simply sending you a greeting and you return with a grand road map for peace. It is also a very encouraging sign that you have lowered you demands, if both our nations move in this fashion we may be able to build a lasting peace between our people.

What the Ironic people have to understand, the single most important thing for us doughnuts is security. It doesn’t matter how you mix your words, this war of northern aggression was begun by your nation. We have no interest in a ceasefire; we don’t want to give the Ironic military 20 turns to place an invincible army of Immortals on our northern border. For this reason any Peace Treaty we sign would require 30 turns of guaranteed peace and the establishment of a neutral zone between our nations.

As for your requests of technology, the lands of homer will not be extorted, but we are willing to teach you how to read and write, also if you need to know how to mount your beasts our folk will teach you. But as you are aware wars cost money, and this war has wounded both of our economies. From what we understand the ironic people have begun a process of minting there own money or are attempting to discover this technique in exchange for our writing and horseback riding technology we would require the secrets to your currency.

If you agree in principal to these terms I thing the next step we should take is a formal chat to discuss matters things like the Neutral Zone would need much discussion. You must also understand that any peace agreement would need to be ratified by the Doughnutian Legislature.

Thank you for looking over this proposal and we a wait for reply.

Yours magnificently,

Nobotti Nobodaroney
Foreign Affairs Consul of Team Doughnut

One thing though:unless it was intended as an oblique bestiality insult, “mount your beasts” should probably be reworded.

-the Wolf

I see no reason for peace right now.
The war went nicely, and our troops are superior. We have this advantage now, let`s not waste it. Their immos are good until late mediveal, our riders will be outdated sooner. So postponing the war cannot be in our interest.

Besides, I don`t really care who wins as long as provolution loses. His self-righteous attitude really pissed me off.

Just to make sure my previous post isn't misunderstood...

Peace may not be a good idea, we've made good progress and are poised to hurt them even more. I'm just saying if we decide to negotiate it should be from a position of strength.

Peace may not be a good idea, we've made good progress and are poised to hurt them even more. I'm just saying if we decide to negotiate it should be from a position of strength.

I also believe peace to be a bad idea right now. I do not believe TNT proposal to be sincere. I believe they might except it, but only until MIA is in a better position to help them or whatever devious that is being planed by them comes to fruition. I firmly believe that this is a ploy. I may be paranoid but that doesn't mean I'm wrong.

-the Wolf

I agree peace might not be right, but i have no problem making a treaty then not ratifying it.

anyway they see we are in a position of atleast equal strengh if we cant make peace this will increase so its even better.

Alpha Wolf the problem i have with your proposal is that it totally defys the idea of a neutral zone. this is more like a Occupation or a forced demilterised zone. TnT would never agree to it. Thanks for fixing my spelling ect, and as for the title i just took it from them i didnt even know what it meant.

I agree peace might not be right, but i have no problem making a treaty then not ratifying it.

anyway they see we are in a position of at least equal strength if we cant make peace this will increase so its even better.

Alpha Wolf the problem i have with your proposal is that it totally defys the idea of a neutral zone. this is more like a Occupation or a forced demilterised zone. TnT would never agree to it. Thanks for fixing my spelling ect, and as for the title i just took it from them i didnt even know what it meant.

You're welcome for the corrections; I work part time for a book publishing company as a contributing editor, so it was nothing new. (Shameless ad, go HERE (http://www.baen.com/))

I had never intended for it to be agreeable I was thinking of the Treaty of Versailles, when I came up with it. The only one I find important and must be kept is:
In addition to the workers that are given to us in any agreement, 5 workers still belonging to TNT should begin to remove the jungle, we get to dictate as to where they work and they can not be escorted.
That isn't occupation just slave labor since we can't have any troops in the jungle either. The others were just token point that you would let them negotiate out of.

-the Wolf

I see no reason for peace right now.
The war went nicely, and our troops are superior. We have this advantage now, let`s not waste it. Their immos are good until late mediveal, our riders will be outdated sooner. So postponing the war cannot be in our interest.

Besides, I don`t really care who wins as long as provolution loses. His self-righteous attitude really pissed me off.

I second this point. (The part about provo losing)

Besides, I don`t really care who wins as long as provolution loses. His self-righteous attitude really pissed me off.

I second this point. (The part about provo losing)

Now we canno't allow our amotions to decide matters of state, also i don't think Provolution has been in control until lately (he was at start) maybe he went on a break, He also isnt that bad a guy just a little cocky sometimes.

Update : TNT has Currency and lacks writing, mysticism, philo, col.

Because the polls indicate we dont want Peace at the moment i will draft and send a message saying that we refuse their demand for Horseback Ridding and Writing.

To The Grand Vizeer of the Ironic people.

Dearest Donsig,

Let me start by saying the people of Doughnutia are deeply appreciative of your peace proposal, I was simply sending you a greeting and you return with a grand road map for peace. It is also a very encouraging sign that you have lowered you demands, if both our nations move in this fashion we may be able to build a lasting peace between our people.

But it is unfortunate that you still feel the need to extort us, you say we should treat you as equals but you continue to demand tribute from us. You too have technology we could use and we if bulit a lasting peace we could exchange technology in a atmosphere of freindship and cooperation.

But as of right now Doughnutia will not meet your demands for Horseback ridding and Writing. At this time we will not sign a Peace treaty that includeds us paying a tribute too you. If you wish us to be equals maybe you should start treating us equally.

That being said we do appreicate your lessening of demands maybe if you could decrease them more then we could end this pointless war.

Yours magnificently,

Nobotti Nobodaroney
Foreign Affairs Consul of Team Doughnut


Please comment before i send it (sometime tomorrow)

It sounds great. We must remain adamant until we recieve fair terms. Of course destroying TNT is nice to. :mischief:

i'm happy with the letter as it is.

Dear Nobotti Nobodaroney,

As you can see from the form of this written message, we are no longer quite as backward as we once were. I'm sure a man of your position has already surmised that our latest, and I might add very generous, peace offer is now moot. Fear not, for our recently resumed peace process need not return to a brick wall. My people are quite happy to present new peace terms for your people's consideration.

But first a misunderstanding or two must be clarified. We do not know what extort is but we do know what tribute is. We have maintained since the beginnings of hostilities that your people must pay us a token tribute if there is to be peace between us. That has not changed and will not change. Yes, in this world we are on the same side, and yes, our peoples can be friends - even partners - so long as Iron is the acknowledged leader of the partnership. Iroq can make this acknowledgement by paying the token tribute we ask. I offer my apologies if my last message led you to believe we could be equals.

The token tribute we ask for now consists of the following fine technologies: code of laws, literature and philosophy (a mere pittance). If your people are willing to give any of these for twenty turns of peace then we will happily continue to negotiate with you.

Finally, I am a bit puzzled by your insistance that we have technology you could use. What would this technology be? All we have to offer are a few gold coins.

If your people truly want peace then I am sure we will hear back from you soon. If not then we will surely meet on the battlefield.

Yours truly,
donsig
Grand Vizeer of the Ironic People

And we have their reply. Its a rebuff to our last, They offered a fairish treaty which we as a nation decided to turndown, now they come back to us with this insult. I for one say we dont return a message and we just fight it out on the battlefeild because, if we win the next phase of the war then we set the peace terms or wipe them out. If they win we will need to sue for peace, but as of right now both sides don't really want peace lets just fight it out. I could return some short message basicly saying so be it.

At least we know they got writing for currency from MIA.

War is for the best right now. That being said, we must win it!

-the Wolf

Screw TNT!! They are giving us unagreeable terms of peace that we would be idiots to accept. We can destroy them. Our Mounted Warriors will massacre their pathetic Immortals. The road to peace can only be walked through the a trail of war.

With the recent revelation that we are stronger than them militarily perhaps we should frame a suitable diplomatic response acknowledging that TNT is all talk. Something to the effect that there troops couldn't fight there way out of a wet paper bag?

Dear TNT,

I am sorry to disilussion you, but you are sadly mistaken if you think we should pay you tribute. If we would ever take such a despotic and insulting DEMAND then we would be sorry indeed. [go on to demand that they give us 1 tech, 25 gold, and 1gpt for so many turns of peace]. Your army probably couldn't fight their way past a herd of goats. The idea of meeting you on a battlefield is such a joke you might as well sue for peace right now. If all you can lay claim for is 25 gold in the form of a barbarian encampment, you should probably just disband your few remaining heathen Immortals (gosh they go down pretty easily).

Team Doughnut

Anyone feel free to temper this a little, I am still quite mad about their continued demands.

Anyone feel free to temper this a little, I am still quite mad about their continued demands.

I think is a pretty well worded response. Please describe said goats as smelly.

I wouldn't worry to much about a letter or their chest thumping, remember actions speak louder than words :D

Dear TNT,

I am sorry to disilussion you, but you are sadly mistaken if you think we should pay you tribute. If we would ever take such a despotic and insulting DEMAND then we would be sorry indeed. [go on to demand that they give us 1 tech, 25 gold, and 1gpt for so many turns of peace]. Your army probably couldn't fight their way past a herd of goats. The idea of meeting you on a battlefield is such a joke you might as well sue for peace right now. If all you can lay claim for is 25 gold in the form of a barbarian encampment, you should probably just disband your few remaining heathen Immortals (gosh they go down pretty easily).

Team Doughnut

This is anger talking, the negoations have meet at a stalemate there last Message (other than the silly one) was to act tough. They offered a fairly good peace but we as a nation decided against it, as it is our right to do. I sent a message to that effect they replied the basic notion was we will deal with it on the battle feild i am against sudden angry messages that show our emtion.

It is bussiness not personal we have been beating them so far, soon we play our hand if it wins then they will sue for peace or die if it fails we will sue for peace or continue the war, sometimes fighting is how problems are solved and this is one of them.

Plus if we sent them that message they would return a humour one picking it apart. They sent us two messages they will get our reply at the tip of our spears.

Lol those crazy TnT are at it again


Dear Adversary,

The Iroqi sacking of the Sarbadar village impels us to ask for 25 gold in reparations in addition to the tribute listed in our latest peace offer.

Also, those Iroqi units responsible for the Sarbadar atrocities must be disbanded.

We await your reply.

donsig
Grand Vizeer of the Ironic People

Also, those Iroqi units responsible for the Sarbadar atrocities must be disbanded.

We would be happy to if they disabanded *all* of there units in exchange.;)

-the Wolf

Alphawolf i am sure General Robi will disband TnTs units for us, with extream prejudice

Dear Adversary,

The Iroqi sacking of the Sarbadar village impels us to ask for 25 gold in reparations in addition to the tribute listed in our latest peace offer.

Also, those Iroqi units responsible for the Sarbadar atrocities must be disbanded.

We await your reply.

donsig
Grand Vizeer of the Ironic People

Send them this letter back


Dear donsig,

I do not know of what sacking you speak of. We were quite happy to leave the Sarbadar alone since our fight is not with them, but they came running to us, pleading with us to save them from your barbaric rule and rituals you forced them to partake in, they even offered us gold to save them. Still we were going to stay out of your internal affairs, but once they told us the disgusting things you were doing with the goats you stole from us, our fine warriors on horse had but no choice to act out of conscience and save these poor people from your unhygyenic tyranny. Quite frankly we feel your undeserving of sharing this planet with us, unless you can show us you capable of being productive members in our global society, we ask for the knowledge of Currency and 50 gold in exchange we will let you live.

We await your reply

I dont think we should send them anything, let them play their games soon we will execute their citys and then they will offer us tribute

Alphawolf i am sure General Robi will disband TnTs units for us, with extream prejudice

I have complete faith in the Great General. :)

-the Wolf

Even with infeior forces, we owned their goat asses.
Thier Minister of War or whatever should be fired. How hard is to take a small patch of jungle with large amonts 4/2/1 and 2/1/2 units?
They have one victory, which is killing our entire GS squad off.
They keep doing the same thing, sending wannabe stacks of doom, only to be raided by MW over and over.

GOD
I just love how they make up names for barbains and call them allies. Its so childish.

I recieved this PM from donsig

General Robi D,

I am pleased to note that while you derided my new title you did not dispute it. That is a step in the right direction though the tone of your message is improper.

Do not trouble yourselves with how we train our troops. At least they die facing their enemy.

You scoff but do not realize that we have not yet applied the full force of our empire to our little skirmish. Have you not noticed the great wonder we erected in Semtex? We now stand at a crossroads. One path leads to peace and the other to continued war. The path we end up taking is entirely up to the Iroqi people. Come to terms with us now or prepare to fight to the death. Be warned that if this war continues we will no longer pursue it half heartedly.

signed
donsig
Grand Vizeer of the Ironic and Iroqi Peoples

I took the liberty of sending a reply back. So far they have not offered anything resembling a fair peace deal, While it would be good to reach a solution so we can get on with catching up to the other teams again, i doubt they will do so since they been pretty determined to take us out even after losing numerous battles.

Grand Vizeer donsig,

I didn't not dispute your title, because to do so would give it more credit than it actually has. You can call yourself Grand Vizeer of the entire planet Meleet if you wish, just remember words and title alone don't change the reality, only actions can do that and yours have been lacking to say the least.

As for our troops not dying facing their enemy as you put it, well i'd rather my troops live and fight another day, then die. You see i've found once a soldier dies their capacity to fight diminishes fairly rapidly.

And while you might not have applied the full force of your empire in this current battle, neither have we. We have plenty of troops in reserve, waiting patiently for their turn to take some of your troops out, although the way this battles going they will have to wait a little longer.

Finally you mention peace, but don't list any terms so i'll assume you stand by your last "offer" in which case we are not interested in the slightest. If you are interested in persuing equitable terms than we will consider your offer.

signed

General Robi D, Doughnutia

It looks like we might have pounded a bit of sense into TNT, they actually come up with a semi decent offer, still nowhere near good enough in my opinon but at least give us a starting point of sorts. Here's the letter

Greetings Counsulate Nobody Nobodazine and General Robi D!

Perhaps you should learn what Vizeer means before you mock the term. I am quite perplexed by your remarks about troops living to fight another day. Is not the whole purpose of troops and war to kill and be killed? Running from battle kinda spoils the whole thing, don't you think? You do have a point though about death diminishing a soldier's capacity to fight. Never thought about it that way before. Perhaps, just perhaps, it would do my people some good to learn more of this Iroqi philosophy of yours.

So, neither of us has put our all into the war. We fight with a sword or spear in one hand while the other tends a plow. Meanwhile the Greeks and Galls grow more powerful than either of us. I said long ago that in this world we are on the same side. That has not changed though soon the other side may be upon us. We would do well to contemplate this and consider ending this frivolous war.

Yes, once again I wrote to you of peace. I listed no terms in the hope you would reply with some. We are willing to return to you the Iroqi women still among us. We are willing to place currency on the table in return for one of your fine technologies. Beyond that it is true, our conditions for peace have not changed. We ask for your respect. You can show this by accepting my use of the title Grand Vizeer of the Ironic and Iroqi Peoples. We ask for a token tribute of 1 gold piece per turn. We must still ask for 25 gold as payment for the Sabadar village destroyed in the Sacred Jungle. We leave it up to you to decide what fine technology to include in the peace treaty. I am confident that if you and your people ponder this deal in its entirety without focusing on the individual parts it will be seen as equitable.

In an effort to avoid the we encountered in previous peace talks, I would like to address the subject of the length of the proposed treaty. As with our ongoing requests, we must continue to insist that any peace treaty last only twenty turns and be renegotiated. We cannot guarantee a perpetual peace unless we periodically meet and discuss the issues that are bound to arise between our peoples from time to time. By signing treaties that will one day expire we force ourselves to work together to avoid the kind of war we are now stuck with.

Think it over. To coin a phrase, let us bury the hatchet and smoke a pipe of peace.

signed
donsig

Grand Vizeer of the Ironic and Iroqi Peoples

Well, that is a bit of a change in tone, so maybe we are making a dent.

1gpt and 25g is still ludicrous by itself, but it does appear they're offering return of the workers.

So the proposed actual deal seems to be:
They give we give
2 workers 25g+1gpt
currency tech of our choice

The Grand Vizeer thing is laughable, of course.

Well they took their turn (85) and we didn't receive a battlelog so they must have withdrawn their horseman, i guess they had enough of us beating the crap out of them. With our CR squad closing in on their cities i'm not in a rush to settle on a peace treaty just yet, but i figured i would just to throw out some ideas about what we should ask for to see what people are thinking.

-They return our worker
-Establish zones of control with the jungle netural
-Any tresspass in the respective ZoC consider decleartion of war
-Limit amount of troops in jungle
-They give us currency and in return we give them either 25g +1gpt for 20 turns or Polytheism not both.

This deal is in our favour as it should be, we are winning after all but i think its very resonable.

This doesn't have to be the first offer either, we can always squeeze them for a bit more to begin with but i would accept a lesser deal than the one above.

Finally i wrote donsig a quick note that we have taken their offer under consideration

Grand Vizeer Donsig,

It would seem for your latest offer you people are genuinely interested in reaching a workable peace plan, therefore your proposal has been submitted to the Doughnutian General Assembly for a full and proper discussion. We willing be sending a response to your peace offer in the next few turns.

On a side note, i am well aware of the meaning of the title Vizeer, the question is are you. I'll save you a trip to the dictionary, Vizeer is a minister of state. Doughnutia has 3 ministers of state, the turnplayer/general, the interal affairs minister and the foriegn affairs minister, and since you do not hold any of these posts and never have i believe i am more than entitled to mock you.

General Robi D

No. We can hold then until knights. They have not seen the full force of our troops....but they will...:nuke: ;) :nuke: :smug:

This is certainly an abrupt change of attitude on there part..... and that whole 1gpt is obviously a ploy to make it look like they've won a strategic victory.

No peace until vengeance is served! At least one of there cities should be disbanded and or razed!

We should send raiders in to pillage thier iron. Then every immo loss they take will be critical.

I have prepared a response to TNT's peace offer to send off if most agree, so please read and comment.



Grand Vizeer Donsig,

I am writing to you in response to your peoples offer of peace sent to us three turns ago. After much discussion in the General Assembly the people of Doughnutia agreed to attempt to reach a peace settlement with your people.
We have also considered your terms of peace however we did not find them acceptable and therefore issue the following terms for a peace settlement.

Firstly we accept your offer to return our worker you took from us.

Secondly we except your offer of currency. In return we give you a choice, you can take either Literature or 25 gold + 1gpt for 20 turns, not both.

Thirdly we propose the establishment of Zones of Control (ZoC) where by all territory South of the jungle is under Doughnutian ZoC and all territory North of the Jungle is TNT ZoC. The jungle itself will remain neutral territory free for both Doughnut and TNT units to move through.

All units currently in opposing ZoC will be removed with immediate effect with any future incursions into each others ZoC would be equivalent to a deceleration of war.

We have no issue of only 20 turns of guaranteed peace however it is our hope and wish that this should last longer. If we could spend 50 odd turns in what you yourself describe a senseless war then surely we could achieve that and more in a sensible peace.

Finally i would like to say that if you look at this peace proposal you will find it is a fair one that offers both our nations safety and security for the future. You would also do well to remember that there is a storm gathering on the horizon as the two other nations grow evermore powerful while we weaken each other in battle.

General Robi D
Representative of Doughnutia

You forgot the worker, and maybe we should ask for 2 workers now since the original ones must have multiplied by now. :lol: Also please spell check it first. ;)

I'm not sure though that we should accept peace now. Perhaps we should let the CR squad do some damage first? :evil:

You forgot the worker, and maybe we should ask for 2 workers now since the original ones must have multiplied by now. :lol: Also please spell check it first. ;)

I'm not sure though that we should accept peace now. Perhaps we should let the CR squad do some damage first? :evil:

Done :) We had three days of over 40 C so the brain isn't functioning at full capacity.

Also i am sure we can drag out the negotiations long enough for the CR squad to inflict some pain, the letter hasn't been sent yet but when we do i'm sure it will take them a while to respond, besides they probably don't want Literature anyway;)

I sent of the revisied letter to TNT and received this response for donsig

Greetings General Robi D,

My people and I were quite glad to hear from you. We are pleased that you are willing to accept your women back. They are old and grumpy now and we wish to rid ourselves of them. We are happy that you are willing to accept currency from us. This is indeed a fine technology. As we already have a large collection of Ironic literature we must pass on your offer of Iroqi literature, though I am sure your books are thrilling, especially the rewrites. My people are considering your offer of 25 gold and 1 gold per turn.

The establishment of these zones of control as you call them is unacceptable. The Sacred Jungle is not neutral territory, it is sacred territory. As for the areas north and south of the Sacred Jungle we might consider an agreement that forbids offensive Ironic military units south of the Sacred Jungle and forbids offensive Iroqi military units north of the Sacred Jungle. Offensive military units are horsemen, mounted warriors, swordsmen and immortals. We see no reason to place restrictions on the exploration and mapping of those parts of our continent which do not fall within either of our borders. This shall henceforth be known as the Strider Doctrine.

We look forward to hearing your reply concerning the Strider Doctrine. Until we hear from you about this we will table our discussion of the other terms you have suggested.

signed
donsig II
Grand Vizeer of the Ironic and Iroqi Peoples


They have agreed to giving the worker back.
They have partially agreed to the ZoC proposal, in that they want defensive units excluded from the conditions.
They argue that the jungle is not netural but sacred, but they don't say how that is different so i have sent a quick letter back seeking clarification on this issue.
Finally they are still discussuing exchanging Currency for 20g +1gpt for 20 turns.

My opinion on their reply is that it is positive, but i do not like the loop hole they want in the ZoC as it leaves them free to try to flood us with spears or even try to attempt to establish cities or our side of the jungle, which would just put us in the position of going back to war with them. I reserve judgement on the sacred issue until they send their clarification

"Sacred" might mean that you have to guard the grounds with D'nut settlers and D'nut cities ... :mischief:
Or: workers are not restricted and when chopped it is no longer jungle, thus no longer sacred. ;)

It was our proposal for the ZoC so they should accept it. Also, they consider it sacred but if a NCU move there isn't anything they could do but explore. The whole sacred thing is very stupid. But the deal is good, but we should get 40 or so turns of peace before agreeing, that way they don't get money from us to rebuild and attack after 20 turns.

Take a peek at the KISS negotiations page.

This was sent by donsig with the battle log


donsig II (4/4 horseman) attacked DS squad 5 (1/4 mounted warrior)
donsig II lost 0 hp, DS squad 5 KIA

Greetings General Robi D,

I am riding south in an effort to personally attend peace talks with you. Sorry for inadvertantly attacking DS squad 5. As a general you must know how difficult it is sometimes to control fighting men. If opnly there were a way to undo what has already been done. :(

Having ridden south of the jungle in plain sight of your mounted warriors we will now see how much you and your people want peace. If you truly desire to end this war I'm sure you will see you way to not attacking a single band of warriors that is greatly outnumbered. Let the truce begin now and I will ride back into the Sacred Jungle and we will make peace. Please send my salutations to your Grand Assembly. Your question is not easy to answer as we find it very difficult to define sacred. Maybe someday when we research something called theology ww will know this definition. In the mean time, to paraphrase a wise man, while we can't define sacred we know it when we see it. :scan: Perhaps we would make more headway in these talks if you could define neutral for us. We could then respond and let you know if what you call neutral fits within what we call sacred. How does your assembly feel about only restricting each other's horsemen, mounted warriors, swordsmen and immortals from your proposed zones of control?

May all your doughnut holes be small,

signed
donsig II
Grand Vizeer of the Ironic and Iroqi Peoples

I will write a response and post it shortly

This is the message i have written to send.

Grand Vizeer Donsig,

Here is a full explanation of our Zones of Control (ZoC) and Neutral Territory proposal.

Part 1a. Entry into the National Borders of the other party is strictly forbidden in the absence of a Rights of Passage (RoP) agreement between the two parties and will be considered an automatic declaration of war.

Part 1b. In the event a unit enters the other parties territory via a expansion of borders then that unit must leave the territory on the next turn without incident, otherwise it will be considered an automatic declaration of war.

Part 2a. The continent will be divided into ZoC with the continent North of the (sacred) jungle to be the TNT ZoC and the continent South of the (sacred) jungle to be the Doughnutian ZoC.

Part 2b. Any unit entering the other parties ZoC without prior agreement of both parties will be considered an automatic declaration of war.

Part 3a. The (sacred) jungle will remain Neutral territory with both parties able to move its units in the any part of the jungle without restriction except in the event it violates Part 1 of the agreement, in which case Part 1 takes precedence over Part 3.

As to the request of the TNT people for non-attacking units to be exempt from the ZoC (ie units with an attack value of 1 or less) the Doughnutia people have rejected that proposal. However as a show of good faith Doughnutia is willing to make one exception to the ZoC rule. This exception is that a party can enter the other parties ZoC with a maximum of two warrior units (ADM 1-1-1) for the purpose of exploration. These units must be disclosed to the other party before entering the that parties ZoC (ie a message advising the other party).

While this may not be to your satisfaction, do keep in mind this agreement is for twenty turns. I am sure you understand that the nearly sixty turns of war has eroded any trust between our peoples. This trust can only be rebuilt slowly, not only with lasting peace but also with both of us acting in good faith towards each other. If you choose to except our proposal of ZoC, then this would be the first step toward normalising relations between our people and not the end of the road. Continued actions of good faith will lead to more open relations in the future.

Finally you ask for an immediate truce and state that if we are serious about a peace agreement we will not attack your horseman. I would counter if you were serious about a peace agreement you would not have attacked with your horseman in the first place. We are happy to agree to an immediate truce once both of us have agreed to a peace settlement, but not beforehand.

I hope this has answered all your questions and look forward to hearing from you soon

signed

General Robi D
Representative of Doughnutia

I think this is just making peace with us so they cant hurt KISS, we need to work with KISS to defeat the Forces of Darkness

I have just received this "private" message from donsig

General Robi D,

As you can now see we already have a city in the Sacred Jungle. We were unsure of how this would affect your proposed nuetral jungle, however we did not wish to tell you about the city. This of course made negotiations difficult. Now that you can see our borders within the jungle am I free to speak plainly. Please note that I am sending this message off the record, so to speak. You are of course free to share it with your people but I am breaking with tradition and not including my people in on this. Please do not share what I have to say with the Greeks or Galls. If word of this gets back to Iron my political situation would be untenable to say the least. If you choose to keep what I have to say between the two of us, so much the better.

My people are a warmongering lot and I have been unable to convince them to give up this madness. In order to maintain power I have had to continue to put up an agressive stance towards Iroq. I had hoped that by avoiding a serious invasion of Iroq we could eventually make peace. Alas, even after suffering terrible losses my people still cry out for war!

I am currently facing a difficult election. I have argued for peace and a republic. My opponent argues for war and knights. Meanwhile, the Gallic Republic has been established and the Greeks will also soon have a republic. I fear that unless we make peace very soon I will be voted out of office and this war will go on and on.

I am writing now to ask if peace is possible now. We are willing to agree to your zones of control as long as we both have the right to settle cities in the Sacred Jungle.

I will be sending a formal in game peace offering including your captured worker and currency. I will *inadvertantly* mark this as accepted when I send it. If your original proposal is still on the table then please accept the offer I send so we can have peace. Any remuneration due us for currency can be sent along seperately after we sign the formal agreement concerning zones of control.

I see that your people do not yet have republic. In the interests of peace and countering the Gallic / Greece republics I am willing to try to push through a nice deal for you for this fine technology. Are you interested? Please respond soon. I will be using our whole grace period for our turn and may even request an extension if I do not hear from you. I do this because our best prospects for peace (and my best chance of remaining in power) are now. I do not want this to slip away.

signed
one in a long line of donsigs
Holder of the honorary title of Grand Vizeer of the Ironic and Iroqi Peoples

Personally i don't really know what to make of it. I don't know whether its genuine or a double bluff or something in between. If i am to take the letter as a geniune plea it still leaves me with a lot of concerns, because even if donsig himself wants peace there is still a large group within TNT that continues to want war. This means that even if peace is agreed to it could be a very short one. Basically now i need everyones opinion on where we go from here, accept peace or continue the war. We need to make our decision quickly

accept! everyone is runnning over us. We don't have to be stupid about it, but we train more defense and less offense.

EDIT well, accept after you burn for carbonperoxides and anything else to the ground...

we should take the deal. The fact that TNT but a city in the jungle really is quite bad. Since only two warriors can go into the jungle but we can't go into their borders, they effectivley increased their ZoC and border line. We should force them to disband the city or increase our Zoc as far as their city is in the jungle.

Well as far as there jungle city goes i am not fussed. They have taken the gems, but if you look on the path they have expanded we are a lot closer to and could easily take the silks, for which MIA has expressed interest in trading for. But fear not if their is a peace settlement then we will expand into the jungle to.

On the other hand if a bit of retribution is what everyones after before signing the treaty then we have troops in position to take out two cities at opposite ends at the same time. Although taking a couple of cities off TNT might make them not want to sign a peace deal, it would leave us in a much better position then them regardless.

Finally i sent donsig a quick message that our we wont have our decision for this turn and that he should play it.

So far from what i'm reading the vote is for attacking some cities before accepting peace, however i would feel happier if there was some more opinions on the matter before making the final decision

This is a tough decision all around. If we have surprise at one of the attack points, we stand to be able to knock them down some and then maybe get the same deal. They might have even taken a peek at the NW stack and know they can't defend in time, and are using the peace deal to gamble that we'll take it instead of continuing the attack.

A potential counter offer is to require them to voluntarily drop any embargo they might have placed on deals with other teams. Word this demand as though we don't know if any such deal exists but that we understand there could be such a deal.

Lastly, we need to look at the worst case scenario for both peace and continued war. If we take the peace and then everyone stonewalls on future deals, have we sealed our own doom? If we stay at war are TNT or MIA on the verge of an advance which renders our MW's impotent? Let's not throw the game on this decision, whichever way it goes.

I intended to send this letter off, any objections

Greetings President Donsig

Please accept my apologies for this belated reply, I have meant to disrespect moreover I need enough time to give your proposals full consideration they deserve.
On too matters of business, we may be willing to pay our part towards a Continental Road Project (CRP) if we both of our nations were willing to pay and “equal and fair” amount towards the project.

As far as military cut backs are concerned it is possible that Doughnut military could make cutback on troop number in order to increase efficiency and mobility. But such reforms are mere speculative because as you can understand matter such as that are classified because of National Security.

Most crucial to any trade Proposals is our continuing Peace. Hasn’t 20 turns gone so fast? The People of the Doughnut have no wish to return to the dark days of war. As such I hereby propose we Sign a Formal Peace Treaty*. This treaty would include the following points:

1. Guaranteed Peace for the next 20 turns.
2. Automatic Continuation for further 20 turns, unless notice is given 5 turns Prior to the end of principal term.
3. Recognition of Sovereign Territory, i.e. we will not settle north of the Sacred Jungle, you will not settle south of the Sacred Jungle.

Hopefully we can come to some sort of arrangement based on the above outline. Of course we are always willing to Negotiate on any point.

Also as a side note, we both know how long these Processes can take, during such time our current agreement lapses before we mange to sign a more permant peace treaty. As neither of our nations wishes to be engaged in a war for such a silly reason I propose we immediately Sign a Peace Extension Treaty allowing for another 5 turns of peace after our current treaty expires. Just so we can get the finer points hammered out.

I leave you now you may consider my proposals; we need to work together to ensure both our people can live in harmony without fear. Ill leave you with a quote that I find Appropriate:

“Blue M&M, red M&M, they all wind up the same colour in the end.”- Homer J. Simpson

Most sincerely, always you’re most obedient Servant

Nobotti Nobadazine
Foreign Affairs Consulate of the Republic of Doughnuita

And they replied this

Greetings Consulate Nobadzine,

We are happy to hear of your proposed peace treaty. We will work with your people to arrive at an equitable agreement. In the mean time we have decided to accept your proposal for an immediate extention of the current treaty for five turns beyond it's current expiration date.

As for the three proposed items for a more lasting peace treaty, they seem acceptable on the surface but we feel there is more that should be included in the treaty. We are particulary interested to broaden the clauses of our treaty pertaining to the Sacred Jungle. As you know we have a few settlements there and we are wondering if you would be agreeable to the idea of a modified zone of control extending one tile from each other's cultural borders. Under such a modified zone of control we would agree not move units next to each others cultural borders. We feel this would serve to prevent small border incidents from escalating into larger unkindlinesses. We are also wondering if our treaty should have any clauses regarding each others actions should one of the green countries from across the sea initiate war on our side of the world. We are interested in hearing your thoughts on this. Lastly on this matter, we are interested in formalizing this treaty in game. Any thoughts on how or if this should be done?

As for the CRP we are quite interested. We are quite interested in hearing where you think our repective roads should meet. Once we agree on a route we will be able to tell you how soon we can begin work on the project.

Hope to hear from you soon,

signed
donsig
President of the Republic of Iron
Hereditary Grand Vizeer of the Ironic and Iroqi Peoples

ANyone got anything to say

Interesting response, however I'm unclear on the ZoC one square from cultural borders, is this for the jungle only or for the whole continent?

The one space from their borders thing is bs, as it removes our two movement points for our UU or knights. In other words, they dont want us to park ourselves right outside their silk city or whichever city, and cause them alarm. We should reserve that right in any treaty, if nothing else than to draw their attention from where we eventually attack. We need to get rid of them before Nationalism comes about.

We do not sign a peace treaty, nor declare war on TNT?

From TNT:

When does our peace treaty expire?

Greetings!

As you know we are currently fighting off an unprovoked invasion by the Galls. Due to the heavy fighting around our capital we have lost track of when our peace treaty with you expires. Can you tell us when our war is set to resume? (We wouldn't want to be late.) If you'd like to postpone a resumption of the recent unkindliness we will gladly sit and talk with you about that as well as various trading possibilities that now exist between our two great nations.

signed
donsig IV
President of the Republic of Iron
Hereditary Grand Vizeer of the Ironic and Iroqi Peoples

Well the peace treaty end on turn 123.
I don't know if we should sign another one or not, but if we are not and are instead going to enter the war then we should at least pretend to be interested in signing a continuation