I'm making a few assumptions here . The first is that Indians have a UU that is given an extra movement point . The second is , like in Civ 3 , even 1/3 of a movement point can be used to move to any place , or to initiate an action .

Taking that , on a terrain of type T ( which has movement cost 1 , i.e. , a unit with two movement point can cover two such terrain squares in one turn ) , it takes N workers to construct a road in one turn , then , given any number of workers higher than N , it will take any civilisation whose worker has one movement point a minimum of M ( and a maximum of 2*M , which is much more common ) turns to construct a road across M tiles of terrain type T ( assuming that no infrastrucutre existed in the first place , as is the case in the early game ) . The Indian worker can , however , do this job in M/3 turns ( or rather , M/(bonus granted by roads ) ) .

This is rather simple to show . Imagine six adjacent squares A , B , C , D , E , and F ( of terrain type T ) . Imagine we have put 3*N workers on A ( divided into three sets of N workers - X , Y , and Z ) . N workers use their movement points and construct a road on A ( X has used their movement points ) . Then another N workers ( the set Y ) move to the next tile ( which is B ) , and use the one remaining movement point to construct another road on B . The last remaining workers ( set Z ) use the already constructed roads on A and B to move to C , with only 2/3 movement point remaining , and construct a road on C . The turn ends . The position at end-of-turn is - X on A , Y on B , and Z on C , and roads on all A , B , and C .

On the next turn , X ( located now at A ) move across the roads on B and C ( which use up 2/3 movement points ) , and land on D . Having 1/3 movement point remaining , they construct a road on D . Y ( located at B ) move across the roads on C and D , and , like X , construct a road on E with only 1/3 movement point remaining . Z ( located now at C ) move across the roads on D and E and , like X and Y , construct a road on F with only 1/3 movement point remaining . The turn ends . The position is identical to the end of the first turn , with X , Y , and Z poised to construct roads on the next three squares in the next turn .

Let us see what the Indian workers have accomplished in two turns - all starting on the same tile , they have constructed a road on six tiles in one two . This means that it will be possible for the Indians , if you take the road route , to have workers build roads for your army units ( having one movement point ) as the army moves along plain terrain ( with the army always exactly one turn ahead of the workers , if it starts on the same tile ) . This is a fantastic advantage for a warmonger - your army becomes effectively a "treat all terrain as roads" on all plain terrain ( and also obviously so for a builder ) .


But this is only the tip of the iceberg - the effect mentioned here is scalable . It is obvious that , when railroads come out , it will be possible for 10*(k*N) workers to build railroads across 10 squares ( of terrain T ) in only one turn ( where k*N is the number of workers required to build road+railroad in one turn ) . Imagine an industrial army of artillery and infantry ( as currently that is the most powerful ) which can treat all plain terrain as railroad .



All this is , of course , assuming that the Indian worker is faster in that it has an extra movement point . If Firaxis says no , this elaborate model I've constructed will be shot to hell ;) .





UPDATE : This strategy is no longer exclusive to the Indians . It can now be used by all Civs ( as all workers have been confirmed to have two movement points ) . The advantage the Indians have is only that they can road six squares in one turn , unlike the others , who can road only two .


MOD REQUEST : Could a Mod please move this to the Civ 4 Strategy and Tips forum , now that it has been created ?

I'm making a few assumptions here . The first is that Indians have a UU that is given an extra movement point . The second is , like in Civ 3 , even 1/3 of a movement point can be used to move to any place , or to initiate an action .

Taking that , on a terrain of type T ( which has movement cost 1 , i.e. , a unit with two movement point can cover two such terrain squares in one turn ) , it takes N workers to construct a road in one turn , then , given any number of workers higher than N , it will take any civilisation whose worker has one movement point a minimum of M ( and a maximum of 2*M , which is much more common ) turns to construct a road across M tiles of terrain type T ( assuming that no infrastrucutre existed in the first place , as is the case in the early game ) . The Indian worker can , however , do this job in M/3 turns ( or rather , M/(bonus granted by roads ) ) .

This is rather simple to show . Imagine six adjacent squares A , B , C , D , E , and F ( of terrain type T ) . Imagine we have put 3*N workers on A ( divided into three sets of N workers - X , Y , and Z ) . N workers use their movement points and construct a road on A ( X has used their movement points ) . Then another N workers ( the set Y ) move to the next tile ( which is B ) , and use the one remaining movement point to construct another road on B . The last remaining workers ( set Z ) use the already constructed roads on A and B to move to C , with only 2/3 movement point remaining , and construct a road on C . The turn ends . The position at end-of-turn is - X on A , Y on B , and Z on C , and roads on all A , B , and C .

On the next turn , X ( located now at A ) move across the roads on B and C ( which use up 2/3 movement points ) , and land on D . Having 1/3 movement point remaining , they construct a road on D . Y ( located at B ) move across the roads on C and D , and , like X , construct a road on E with only 1/3 movement point remaining . Z ( located now at C ) move across the roads on D and E and , like X and Y , construct a road on F with only 1/3 movement point remaining . The turn ends . The position is identical to the end of the first turn , with X , Y , and Z poised to construct roads on the next three squares in the next turn .

Let us see what the Indian workers have accomplished in two turns - all starting on the same tile , they have constructed a road on six tiles in one two . This means that it will be possible for the Indians , if you take the road route , to have workers build roads for your army units ( having one movement point ) as the army moves along plain terrain ( with the army always exactly one turn ahead of the workers , if it starts on the same tile ) . This is a fantastic advantage for a warmonger - your army becomes effectively a "treat all terrain as roads" on all plain terrain ( and also obviously so for a builder ) .


But this is only the tip of the iceberg - the effect mentioned here is scalable . It is obvious that , when railroads come out , it will be possible for 10*(k*N) workers to build railroads across 10 squares ( of terrain T ) in only one turn ( where k*N is the number of workers required to build road+railroad in one turn ) . Imagine an industrial army of artillery and infantry ( as currently that is the most powerful ) which can treat all plain terrain as railroad .



All this is , of course , assuming that the Indian worker is faster in that it has an extra movement point . If Firaxis says no , this elaborate model I've constructed will be shot to hell ;) .No wonder we are losing all of our jobs to you all!

Actually , this the wrong place to post this . This should have been in strategy and tips , but currently there is no stragegy and tips .

1) This isn't new: similar strategies were effective in CivIII.
2) Unless the military units are Commandos, building up the infrastructure in another Civilization's territory is pointless for you but beneficial to him.
3) Although the fast worker reduces the work force needed to pull this trick off, it will almost certainly still be considerable.

1) This isn't new: similar strategies were effective in CivIII.
2) Unless the military units are Commandos, building up the infrastructure in another Civilization's territory is pointless for you but beneficial to him.
3) Although the fast worker reduces the work force needed to pull this trick off, it will almost certainly still be considerable.
Two movement for worker is new, so that you can move into an unroaded square, and then begin working.

@ Melendwyr

1) They may have been , but I don't know of any worker that had two movement points in Civ 3 . I also think the advantage will be greater in Civ 4 , as railroads confer less of a benefit .

2) This is not to built up infrastructure in enemy territory - it is for rapid response to a threat at the other end of your empire , if your focece is stationed at another place .

3) This trick cannot be pulled off with anything other than the fast worker . There is no way any number of other workers can construct a road over M tiles in less than M turns . As for the workforce - if it takes , say , three workers to built a road on terrain T in one turn , then it will take twelve workers to built three roads per turn ( which isn't too many , at least by current standards ) , and thirty workers ( which is , admittedly , a lot ) to built a railroad across ten ( already roaded ) tiles in one turn .

But I do admit that I am assuming a lot about Civ 4 , based on Civ 3 .

aneeshm: Thanks for the tip. Will remember to try it when I get Civ 4

Yup, workers were one of the most important part of Aggressive and Fast conquest in my games. This worker unit, if it has 2 movement points will be a very good unique unit.

And to be able to start, and maybe finish an improvement EVERY turn instead of every 2nd turn, like a similar sized stack of workers in another civ would, is a great advantage.

@ Grey Fox

Not only will it be able to start and finish an improvement in a single turn , it can start and finish three roads in the same turn , every turn , if stacked right ( as I have shown ) . This is , as the minimum , a threefold , and the maximum , a sixfold advantage over any other player .

@ Grey Fox

Not only will it be able to start and finish an improvement in a single turn , it can start and finish three roads in the same turn , every turn , if stacked right ( as I have shown ) . This is , as the minimum , a threefold , and the maximum , a sixfold advantage over any other player .

Yeah I know, but I meant with a stack that can only finish one improvement in a turn. The indians will be able to do this in one turn, while every other civ will have to first move their worker to a Unroaded tile, wait to next turn and then work the tile.

Ever thought if the Indian worker will cost same as other workers ? This efficiency might come at a cost. It might not be economically feasible to maintain a large enough worker force to pull this off sometimes. But heck, even this is speculation just like most of the stuff anyway.

all this math sheesh hey iolum if those efficient workers are expensive we can always outsource em ..rofl

Yeah I know, but I meant with a stack that can only finish one improvement in a turn. The indians will be able to do this in one turn, while every other civ will have to first move their worker to a Unroaded tile, wait to next turn and then work the tile.

i'm not 100 percent sure, but i think all workers will have 2 movement??

I think i have heard something about that to, but perhaps it was the settlesrs that had 2 movement...

Workers too:

http://media.pc.ign.com/media/620/620513/img_3125158.html

aneeshm: I think it only takes nine workers to road three squares/turn, assuming roads cost 3 turns. Where'd you get 12 from?

And that screenshot does show workers with 2 move points, which means any civ can apparently do this. If Indian workers have 3 move points, they officially suck as first stated. The difference between 2 and 1 is a hundred times more than the difference between 3 and 2, in this case.

aneeshm: I think it only takes nine workers to road three squares/turn, assuming roads cost 3 turns. Where'd you get 12 from?

And that screenshot does show workers with 2 move points, which means any civ can apparently do this. If Indian workers have 3 move points, they officially suck as first stated. The difference between 2 and 1 is a hundred times more than the difference between 3 and 2, in this case.


Actually , it takes (movement bonus of terrain improvement)*(no. of workers required to make said improvement on a simple square) to create (terrain improvment) on (movement bonus) squares . So it it takes three workers , and roads confer 3 multiplier , then you need (3*3) or 9 workers to road three squares in one turn .

But yes , if every worker gets two movement , and the Indian worker gets three movement , then it sucks , and sucks hard . If , of course , it is a bonus to working terrain , then they're still overpowered ( like the industrious trait was back in Civ 3 ) , because nobody gets workers like that any more .

Well one theory was that they increased the cost to counterbalance improved working speed. I think that would come out even, which still is bad since then India doesn't have a real UU. A 25% increase might be reasonable though.

Two movement for worker is new, so that you can move into an unroaded square, and then begin working. Yes, so? With enough workers, you could duplicate this in CivIII. It's not worth getting excited about.

Yes, so? With enough workers, you could duplicate this in CivIII. It's not worth getting excited about.

Actually , I just proved in the beginning that you couldn't ;) .

Yes, so? With enough workers, you could duplicate this in CivIII. It's not worth getting excited about.

Really ? Last I saw, the moment a worker, or heck a hundred workers moved over a unroaded tile, they lost all movement points, had to wait a turn before building a road.

Now it seems you could move a stack of say 3, to a plains tile and road it all in the same turn. Pretty diffrent I'd say.

Really ? Last I saw, the moment a worker, or heck a hundred workers moved over a unroaded tile, they lost all movement points, had to wait a turn before building a road.

Now it seems you could move a stack of say 3, to a plains tile and road it all in the same turn. Pretty diffrent I'd say. In hostile territory, there's very little advantage. Commando troops may be able to use the transportation network that's just been set down, but the workers themselves will not.

In hostile territory, there's very little advantage. Commando troops may be able to use the transportation network that's just been set down, but the workers themselves will not.

No but UP to hostile territory, like in 1000 BC, with 40 tiles from your cities to your enemies, or later even depending on map size.

I used this in Civ 3, with 2 groups of 3 workers each, road one tile, move the other worker group to next tile, next turn I road that tile, move the other worker group to next tile. Rince repeat. This isnt even half as strong as it could be in civ4 though, with workers with 2 in movement speed.

This made me conquer alot of civs very quickly, moving newly trained troops along my roads up to my enemies to gather a big force quickly.

Workers too:

http://media.pc.ign.com/media/620/620513/img_3125158.html

Couldnt tell by that screen shot which civ it was


This could just be a pic of the indain UU:goodjob:

Just have to wait to find out

as for MP games, who ever has the Indians will be the target of all the othrs civs trying to nick there workers, that is if anotehr civ can also have them when they capture them.

As for the "hugely" overpowered. If you think its to easy to play with that civ then dun. If you think its to hard to play against that civ leave em out.

any questions?

Couldnt tell by that screen shot which civ it was


This could just be a pic of the indain UU:goodjob:

Just have to wait to find out

If you look right below the "foot" that indicates movement you can see that it says 100% Malinese which either means that it is mali territory or mali workers. it would be strange if it was indian workers.
BTW shouldn't the indian workers be 100% more efficient so tehy would then have a movement of 4 (!) which doesn't seems realistic to me. I think it really is that they work twice as fast.

Maybe the bonus to Indians is that all workers they own get two movement points ? If so , that could be a captured Malinese worker , belonging to the Indians ( IIRC , the colour the player had was the Indian colour ) ..

No, all of the 48 new screenshots at IGN are from the same game, in which the previewer plays the Malinese (probably because of the novelty factor).

This is the gravest example of nerdism I have ever read @#1! :thumbsup: Go see a psychiatrist ;)

This is the gravest expample of nerdism I have ever read @#1! :thumbsup: Go see a psychiatrist ;)

Oh please. Just because he bothered to post it, he needs help? I thought of the same thing; it's what you did in CivII, after all. And I certainly don't need a psychiatrist.

Shut up, Bob. I don't.

fellow civ fans, i just have a quick question.. why a worker UU for the indians? I can see how it increases production and movement but correct me if i'm wrong, if the game is trying to reflect something in real life - like UU's for other civs - wouldn't that imply that in real life india has such a great infrastructure? being indian myself, i know about the tons of railroads that wind around the country (on which there are numerous train derailments) but aside from that they do lack infrastructure in most parts of the country (especially those that aren't developed and are more 3rd world than the new cyber-india)

fellow civ fans, i just have a quick question.. why a worker UU for the indians? I can see how it increases production and movement but correct me if i'm wrong, if the game is trying to reflect something in real life - like UU's for other civs - wouldn't that imply that in real life india has such a great infrastructure? being indian myself, i know about the tons of railroads that wind around the country (on which there are numerous train derailments) but aside from that they do lack infrastructure in most parts of the country (especially those that aren't developed and are more 3rd world than the new cyber-india)

The game is trying to reflet the fact that until relatively recently , this was not the case .

The game is trying to reflet the fact that until relatively recently , this was not the case . Well, The American's have built unbelievably quickly a huge continent of nothing but wilderness into a continent full of the most advanced infrastructure in the world. In my opinion the Americans should have the improved worker UU or "American pioneer"-unit in the late middle ages to modern times.

Besides what's wrong with the Elephant special unit ??? It made India into my favorite nation in Civ3.

Still, if you just make more workers then the indian worker advantage will be eclipsed. Also i doubt that its advantage will be there in the industrial age worker as well, but even if it is it still is a point of making more workers, and if things are as in civ3 then making workers is not much of a problem once you are a republic.

The update : this strat is now universal , and can be used by all . The advantage the Indians get is now practically restricted to extremely large maps .

Is it actually true about all workers having 2 movement points? Or is this old and outdated info? Haven't seen that on any of the recent previews..

If, as I think, it's still all normal workers having one MP and the Indian UU having two, it will definitely be a huge advantage - a valuable UU indeed!

It could be that standard workers only have one movement point, up until a tech is researched (motorised transport maybe - workers moving around in big 4x4s or something). In that shot the player is researching flight, which is quite an advanced tech.

This would mean the UU was useful early on, but becomes less useful.

Of course, this could be wrong :P

Why is everyone so convinced that Indian workers dont complete tasks at say 150% rate? You got more efficient workers in Civ3 under a Democracy, what prevents them from doing the same for an indian UU in civ4?

Because that would make India far and away the best civ, unless balanced by 150% shield cost.

Well, now we can see the new preview, it would appear normal workers move rate is 2, and Indian 3.

That puts an end to speculation :P

I'm making a few assumptions here . The first is that Indians have a UU that is given an extra movement point . The second is , like in Civ 3 , even 1/3 of a movement point can be used to move to any place , or to initiate an action .

Taking that , on a terrain of type T ( which has movement cost 1 , i.e. , a unit with two movement point can cover two such terrain squares in one turn ) , it takes N workers to construct a road in one turn , then , given any number of workers higher than N , it will take any civilisation whose worker has one movement point a minimum of M ( and a maximum of 2*M , which is much more common ) turns to construct a road across M tiles of terrain type T ( assuming that no infrastrucutre existed in the first place , as is the case in the early game ) . The Indian worker can , however , do this job in M/3 turns ( or rather , M/(bonus granted by roads ) ) .

This is rather simple to show . Imagine six adjacent squares A , B , C , D , E , and F ( of terrain type T ) . Imagine we have put 3*N workers on A ( divided into three sets of N workers - X , Y , and Z ) . N workers use their movement points and construct a road on A ( X has used their movement points ) . Then another N workers ( the set Y ) move to the next tile ( which is B ) , and use the one remaining movement point to construct another road on B . The last remaining workers ( set Z ) use the already constructed roads on A and B to move to C , with only 2/3 movement point remaining , and construct a road on C . The turn ends . The position at end-of-turn is - X on A , Y on B , and Z on C , and roads on all A , B , and C .

On the next turn , X ( located now at A ) move across the roads on B and C ( which use up 2/3 movement points ) , and land on D . Having 1/3 movement point remaining , they construct a road on D . Y ( located at B ) move across the roads on C and D , and , like X , construct a road on E with only 1/3 movement point remaining . Z ( located now at C ) move across the roads on D and E and , like X and Y , construct a road on F with only 1/3 movement point remaining . The turn ends . The position is identical to the end of the first turn , with X , Y , and Z poised to construct roads on the next three squares in the next turn .

Let us see what the Indian workers have accomplished in two turns - all starting on the same tile , they have constructed a road on six tiles in one two . This means that it will be possible for the Indians , if you take the road route , to have workers build roads for your army units ( having one movement point ) as the army moves along plain terrain ( with the army always exactly one turn ahead of the workers , if it starts on the same tile ) . This is a fantastic advantage for a warmonger - your army becomes effectively a "treat all terrain as roads" on all plain terrain ( and also obviously so for a builder ) .


But this is only the tip of the iceberg - the effect mentioned here is scalable . It is obvious that , when railroads come out , it will be possible for 10*(k*N) workers to build railroads across 10 squares ( of terrain T ) in only one turn ( where k*N is the number of workers required to build road+railroad in one turn ) . Imagine an industrial army of artillery and infantry ( as currently that is the most powerful ) which can treat all plain terrain as railroad .



All this is , of course , assuming that the Indian worker is faster in that it has an extra movement point . If Firaxis says no , this elaborate model I've constructed will be shot to hell ;) .





UPDATE : This strategy is no longer exclusive to the Indians . It can now be used by all Civs ( as all workers have been confirmed to have two movement points ) . The advantage the Indians have is only that they can road six squares in one turn , unlike the others , who can road only two .


MOD REQUEST : Could a Mod please move this to the Civ 4 Strategy and Tips forum , now that it has been created ?

only us indians can figure that out!;)

We should it have an extra movement point? You don't think extra production is enough of a bonus?

You do have an extra movement point, and no extra production.

And as I predicted, that means the Indian UU is the worst. But at least we can still argue about which one is the best.

I disagree, I think having a strong worker is very useful. Even if its only faster movement, and not action.

I think you guys are making some Civ 3 assumptions and also ignoring a possibility or two.

First, even in Civ 3, even if all workers normally had 2 MP, there would still be a real (albeit small) benefit to 3 MP workers. For one thing, we have all been conditioned to use workers by planning out their moves, so that the next thing to build is adjacent or no more than three squares along a road.

However, think of it more abstractly. The set of squares that a worker can pick from for the next task, with minimal waste of worker actions, is MP - 1 away. That is, for a 2 MP worker, it's all the squares no more than 1 MP away (counting cost to enter the square). For a 3 MP worker, it's all the squares 2 MP away (counting cost to enter the square). That is, not only many more grassland and plains to pick from, but also closer forests.

Then there are Civ 4 changes, both known and speculated. We know that workers are more expensive. Roads no longer give commerce. Therefore, we will have and need overall less workers. Even if the entire territory eventually gets roads, we will spend far more of the game with unroaded but improved tiles.

For example, let's assume your starting city has the following squares:

XPPDX
GPDPP
PDCPG
PGPPD
XDDPX

where X=unavailable corners, C=City, P=Poor, D=Decent, G=Good.

In Civ 3, you'd plot out a worker plan that got the Good squares developed fairly quickly, with roads, and maybe irrigation/mines, in the intervening squares--preferably the Decent squares. Still, the overriding intent is to get the squares worked by the city to maximum development as soon as possible, overall, without wasting worker moves.

It should be clear in the example that a 2 MP worker can do a solid job of working on the necessary squares. A 3 MP worker, however, can beeline straight to the best tiles, and still be efficient.

We don't know how the new development options compare to Civ 3 (in terms of cost/benefit). In Civ 3, it was rarely worthwhile to mine hills or chop jungle until one got out of Despotism. This may or may not be true in Civ 4. If it's worthwhile to jump on 2 MP terrain fairly early, the Indian worker will shine at getting those squares productive.

Finally, there is another aspect of fewer workers that you may not have considered. When you reach the point where you want to mass workers to complete a task, you can do so from disparate locations. This will be especially true if the worker tasks have varying costs that do not split well across worker stacks. It is yet another way that you can quickly get the correct amount of workers to next most important location. Until railroads, there can be quite a spread.

And that is what it boils down to. The game has always been to get the "next most important location" developed as quickly and efficiently as possible. With fewer, more expensive workers on more varied but less roaded terrain, movement points will matter.

I agree with Crazy Jerome that the extra movement point will be worth something in terms of faster improvements - and remember, there are far more possible types of improvements in Civ4.
One more bonus: a 3 MP worker can move and start improving on the same turn on terrain types a 2 MP worker cant: Forests and Hills for instance.

Still, a 3 MP worker isn't such a big improvement over a 2 MP worker as a 2 MP worker would have been over a 1 MP worker.

So I would now rate the Indian UU as on a level with the other UUs - which as it should be, I'm happy with it!

Still, a 3 MP worker isn't such a big improvement over a 2 MP worker as a 2 MP worker would have been over a 1 MP worker.

That is what I thought as well, until I thought about the affect of roads, movement, and worker strategy. Why did you build roads all over the place before, even in a square you didn't need to develop right now? Because:

1. You knew you'd ultimately need the road for the +1 commerce bonus.
2. You wanted to save a later worker actions for moving off and onto the square again later.
3. Movement of troops anywhere, and ultimately the railroads.

#1 and #2 no longer apply in Civ 4. #3 is diminished. The big jump from 1 MP to 2 MP is that you get to be even more efficient working on a Civ 3 worker strategy. However, once Civ 4 went with rules that made roads less important, the 2 MP is mainly compensation.

I'd say 3 MP over 2 MP in a lightly-roaded game is very nearly as good as 2 MP over 1 MP in a heavily-roaded game.

Holy Cow! Just read Sulla's Civ4 walkthrough. Standard workers are 60 hammers/food. At 40 h/f, 3 MP, the Indian worker is fast to get produced and fast to get where you need him. Those are some serious cumulative advantages in the early game.