There was a programme about Shangri-La ('In Search of Myths and Legends' series - or something like that) on the BBC in the UK a few days ago. Not watching much TV, I missed it. Did anyone catch the programme?

What do you know about Shangri-La and its associated myths / histories?

As part of the research for the latest Imago Mundi article I found that Japan was producing meditative maps (not for geographical purposes) throughout the Edo period. These all placed Lake Manasarowar and Mount Kailash at the centre of the world, owing to Buddhist beliefs about these places. But Shangri-La is also associated with this lake, the highest fresh water lake in the world. These Buddhist religious beliefs, focusing in on the area in Tibet, overlap with myths about Shangri-La.

Needless to say, places like this (The Garden of Eden for example) also have an analogous role in such stories and beliefs. It's supposed to be a paradise on earth and in the human soul.

But I don't really know much about it.

I recall reading a book called Lost Horizon in my senior english class many years ago. It was written by the english author James Hilton. In it he also explored the utopian ideals expressed in asian mysticism and religion and balanced it with a view through western eyes. It is also a good read and makes you wish that such a place exists.
Travelling in Tibet in the mid eighties I often found myself looking down upon hidden valleys from the edge of a precarious pass and wondering if the little green villages in the distant valleys concealed the entrance to the mythical Shangri La.

I had similar experiences in the 90s Hornblower. Of course Tibet was no longer open for tourists then, so we were confined to Nepal and Northern India. But up against the Chinese border we had many such sightings of valleys. Very memorable!

I also played a Pirate trading game a while ago, set in the South China Seas. It was called 'Tradewinds'. You basically took control of a pirate fleet, expanded it, engaged in battles and traded with towns all along that area. Well one of the towns they included was Shangri-La. But it was depicted as a mystical, floating Pirate Island. This is not dissimilar to the strongholds of the Malacca Pirates, whose women were sought after by Chinese sailors (they were particularly open and fastidious about their technique). Batavia is what the Dutch called such a stronghold when they took it over and many also claim that Indonesia was founded by Malacca Pirate descendants. But this is of course quite different to the notion of Shangri-La as we have mentioned so far. Anyone know of more pirate myths of Shangri-La?

I don't know about Pirate myths but the whole Malacca Island Shangri-la thing reminds me of another great book by Alex Garland called The Beach. Unfortunately the DeCaprio movie doesn't do it justice.

... did you change your Avatar?

Oh yes, the Beach. I didn't like the book either, but then I did read it after the film.

Yes I did change the avvie. Same guy (Sun-Ra), different pic.

I studied in Malaysia, in national schools there, mostly in Malay. The Malays themselves don't have such a legend of an utopia in their midst.

Thanks for that K-D. Know anything else about the place? Real or imagined?

Probably something in between...

Wasn't it first mentioned in some travellers' narrative, or a fictional work?

I don't know. I'm aware of plenty of parallel stories from Hindu and Buddhist mythology about the area (not Shangri-La specifically, more Mount Kailash and Lake Manasarowar) but I'm not aware of any secular or travellers tale versions.

Shangri-La...

Lessee... There's this highly romantic novel transferred to the Hollywood silver screen in the 1930's.

And I actually think that's about it.

The name Shangri-La seems to have been invented by the writer, sounding sufficiently mystical and "Eastern".

Where did he get his inspiration? Most likely the source is Blavatsky and theosophy.

HPB claimed to be in constant spiritual contact with a bunch of über-wise, immortal Mahatmas somewhere in the Himalayas. She of course got her inspiration from a mixed bag of sources like various oriental religions, western mystcism and a sprinkling of science, the most important for the idea of wise Orientals being 19th century German compararive linguistics. ("Ex Oriente lux!" (The Light comes from the east), August Pott. The Schleiermacher brothers assuming Sanscrit to be the mother tongue of all Indoeuropean languages and India the source of European "genius" etc.)

Well, it's a long time ago that I read this, so don't credit me too much on this...

I read once that the idea of Shangri La was originally, that it was something like Nirvana- a state of absoulte perfection and peace of mind.
Through a series of misconceptions that arose over time, the idea changed from this spiritual utopia to a geographical place, a physically existant paradise.

I saved some websites on this subject really long ago (I'm talking five years or so), and I know I still have them somewhere, among those many vaguely labeled CD-Roms. I will look for that if someone is interested.

I never expected to see blavatsky mentioned in CFC.
She was quite a spiritual, almost in a horrible way, figure it would seem. I used to own one of her books, which actually i bought from a greek bookstore in London, and which was an edition of the 1940's, complete with outdated price label on the back (i sure didnt just pay 40 drachma for it) Some months later i returned to the area where the bookstore had been, but didnt find it. It got worse, a black person, who didnt knew me, asked me out of the blue "are you looking for the bookstore"? :lol:
Granted this happened relatively near the store, but it was in tottenham court road, which is not a small street. At that period i was in a rather strange mental state without that, so i still remember the impression it made on me :)

I never expected to see blavatsky mentioned in CFC.
Well, why wouldn't she be?
The late 19th c. occult revival was quite a large and widespread phenomenon. Regardless if you subscribe to that kind of stuff or not, the size of the movement is an historical matter of fact.

Theosophy had a finger in the Lankese Buddhist revival, in the founding of the Indian Congress Part, etc.
The situation where Westerners actually went east convinced they could learn something from Asians was a bit of a novelty in the British Empire. Today it may be commonplace, back then it was schocking:goodjob:

The situation where Westerners actually went east convinced they could learn something from Asians was a bit of a novelty in the British Empire. Today it may be commonplace, back then it was schocking:goodjob:

Not so shocking, perhaps, given that this was also a common notion in late antiquity. Apollonius of Tyana was said to have gone to India to study with the Brahmans, and Plotinus (the real one!) was said to have joined the Roman armies heading east in order to do the same thing. Probably legendary, of course, and we are not told *what* these luminaries actually learned in the mystic Orient. Presumably their biographers wrote this in order to make them seem more mystical and exotic. But the important point is that such activities were evidently regarded as essential elements of the CV of any mystically inclined philosopher.

Similarly, Clement of Alexandria talked about the Buddha (the first Westerner to do so, I believe) but says nothing about his doctrines.

I don't know if the rise of classical studies in the nineteenth century was part of the impetus behind the renewed interest in eastern mysticism - that is, were people inspired by the examples of Plotinus and co? Probably not, but it would be interesting to find out.

IIRC, Pyrrho of Ilis also travelled to India in the fourth century BC to study Hindu and Buddhist teachings, though I'm not sure if he explicitly mentions anything about them in his work.

Appolonios Tyaneus (or Apollonius of Tyana) is a strange figure. If you believe the biography he was some kind of god-like (much like jesus) person.

I don't know if the rise of classical studies in the nineteenth century was part of the impetus behind the renewed interest in eastern mysticism - that is, were people inspired by the examples of Plotinus and co? Probably not, but it would be interesting to find out.

A couple of points:

Plotinus influenced alot of people. I know that Coleridge was supposedly influenced by Neoplatonism, in "The Rime of the Ancient Mariner", for example. Perhaps some professor at Oxford has resurrected Plotinus and inspired Coleridge. Regardless, I imagine it was an entirely superficial influence... but still, I recall that he was influenced by Neoplatonism. In any case, Plotinus keeps re-occuring as an influence in different places and times... for instance, Ficino and the Renaissance Italians etc...

With regard to renewed interest in Eastern Mysticism in the terms of scholarly philology, I think the greatest impetus would have simply been British presence in India, to tell you the truth. Though I'm just guessing. It's true that at this time, we do have great philologists synthesizing Greek and Latin with Sanskrit, postulating Indo-European etc

As for Blavatsky, she merits a study of her own. I'm sure she would have incorporated Plotinus easily, since she incorporated everything, especially of a philosophical or mystical nature. Whether he was an influence on her, I have my suspicions. At this time, we have a whole range of "western gurus", like Blavatsky, Gurdjieff, Crowley... think even of Yeats. All very intellectual (or pseudo). I think it would be interesting to analyze the roots of this, but it should be looked at as a sociological phenomenon as well. Think of the widespread interest in the occult at this time, and developments in mainstream christianity.. perhaps it was simply a changing aspect of new religiosity.. a new development, triggered by changes in society, in broad terms. It's interesting to consider....

True, the late 19th century and early (pre ww1) 20th century was a time of a lot of alternative lifestyle movements in Europe, and then there was also the sanatorium culture in all Europe. Theosophy also seems to have been popular in literary circles. Blavatsky for example is mentioned in at least one work of Hesse, and some other, less known theosophist is mentioned by Kafka.
Hesse definately has witten many stories with the theme of orientalism vs western lifestyle.
But blavatsky's literature is a lot stranger, and in my opinnion not very delicate; it is rather cruel, often violent or even ultra violent, and is not at all comparative: it is clearly in favour of a spiritualism of some sort, and generally disregards anything outside of it. The fact that she was a woman probably has something to do with that too ;)
There are people even today with similar views though, and occult-spiritualist sects, or even very small groups.

Here are some points I feel are pertinent to the discussion you guys have been having. Plot has delivered some good info on the Greek and Alexandrian fascination already, my post takes this as a given.

Aside from an interest in the East based on a fetish for these classical works, there was more at play than 'mere philology'. The influences of such scholarly interest can be felt much further afield. We can see when such notions were being taken seriously in business ie. toward the end of the 18th century. We can see the philology influencing big business and this of course very much presented a political element to British interest in the East, one not to be discounted.

Let's look at Warren Hastings (and this is still relevant for a Shangri-La discussion bearing in mind Hindu texts correlated with Buddhists ones on the analagous Shangri-La):

"I hesitate not to pronounce the Gita a performance of great originality, of sublimity of conception, reasoning and diction almost unequalled; and a single exception, amongst all the known religions of mankind.."

This man, for those who don't know him, was the first Governor General of British India (1776-1793) and aroused great controversy with such reverence for eastern culture. Dwindling profits from the East India Co. were used to finally impeach him and have him done on corruption charges. However, it seems like these were very much used as a political excuse to get rid of a political player so boldly affectionate of the East.

Very quickly, this impeachment process was very much tied up with discussions about, and was later cited as a precedent, alongside the following:

- Slavery and emancipation: ~ 'the noble savage might have some secrets worth knowing about' / The Clapham Sect's massive influence on Parliament, simultaneous with Hasting's career / Their Christian notions being twisted to perceive 'the savage' as a child, in that state of ideal innocence so lauded by the Bible.

The above may have stemmed from some enlightened Christian notion for sure. But not exclusively. Hastings is mentioned because he also 'saw worth in the colonised'. From his point of view, he had a very practical problem. A vast colony to manage and not many Brits on hand to administer it. This shouldn't be underestimated as a motivating factor for his interest in the east. He was responsible for hiring a great deal of Brahmins to his administration, something that was certainly frowned upon back home.

These two elements are seen to develop to head in the mid-late Victorian era.

- The Notion of Indirect Rule: A fascination with the East and its culture found a revival around the mid 19th century, it built on the foundations already laid by classical literature and the Hastings world view. This was very much in response to the Indian War of Independence / Mutiny (1857). Notice that Richard Burton's translation of The Kama Sutra came out in this time, as did many other Eastern translations (The Perfumed Garden, The Rubbaiyat of Omar Khayyam, The 1001 Arabian Nights etc). There was therefore a very close parallel between a literary love of the east and a political love of getting eastern folk to govern themselves. Notice also that an accolade / honour was introduced for Indian Princes, Nawabs, Rajas etc ~ The Most Eminent Order of the Indian Empire - when? 1877.

Well, all I know about Shangri-La is that

... it's a part of the name of Stone Temple Pilot's last album Shangri-La-Dee-da
;)