Worker automate is not fair is sucession games - please do not use it

Playing -
LKendter (on deck)
Pggar
Sirian
cdub
Garsonga (currently playing)

Game size is locked. No new players, and if a drop out, will cut back to 4, then 3.

Domination / Conquest victories disabled.
I want to see a non-military win game.

Civs = 12
World = Large, Wet, Warm, 5 Billion, large continents.
Difficulty = Regent
Barbarians = Roaming
24 hours to verify you can play your turn, 48 hours to play.

20000 point city guidlines - 1 worker should concentrate on developing Babylon. Babylon should ONLY build wonders / cultural unless nothing available. My favorite then = Barracks, and lots of veteran troops. Babylon should NOT build a settler under any conditions. I wonder if a 20000 point win can be pulled of with a tag team game? That is why I started this game. The setup is perfect.

I played 40 turns to get us going. I will post once I get some signups. This is a game for Development players.

Sounds interesting. Sign me up.

- Sirian

I am willing to give this a shot! Sign me up.

-Cdub

Count me in, I'd love to try this one.

Garsonga

I guess the game is loaded, but count me in if anybody drops, or if you're willing to go for a fifth player.

When you said Babylon shouldn't build settlers under any condition, you meant besides the first one, didn't you? Otherwise, this will be the first Civ3 OCC succession game. :D

Pggar - I put in you the game as player #5. I now you a good succession game player, and like having a known player.

I am letting you move next :)

To answer your question - Yes, Babylon built settler #1. It will never build another settler. It may build a worker *IF* a wonder is a long time away, and city is maxed for growth.


This is a locked out for more players unless we have drop outs.

3950 BC - The great city of Babylon is formed. It's hopefull destiny is culture capital of the world (20000 culture city). Masonry is in the science queue. A couple of early wonders will help a culture rush big time.

3700 BC - Our first warrior is built. Thanks to the wonder of Cattle, settler is already coming up.

3600 BC - A tribe gives up a map. Nothing much exciting to see.

3450 BC - City site #2 is spotted. Another cattle spot is found.

3300 BC - Our first settler is grown, and plans to go to the mega cow spot.

3000 BC - Ur is founded, with 6 double production squares.

2900 BC - Babylon whips out a temple, as you can't start culture early enough.

2710 BC - Spices are spotted. I think city spot #3 is decided.

2310 - Another civ is spotted, the Zulus. Buy a worker for $27. Helps us alot, a slows down Zulu devlopement.

2270 - Ur produces a settler, and they are ordered to march to spice land.

2190 - The Babylon warrior defeats babarians, and becomes a Veteran. The palace expands again.

2150 - I buy pottery from the Zulu for $63 and $1/turn. Expensive, but you have to keep in the science race.

Summary - I played 40 turns to get the game started. After this up to 20 turns. I give you the following :
- Settler #3 to build a city with
- An extra worker to connect Ur and Spice City to our road net. This insures 1 worker to improve Babylon, like my guidelines suggested.
- Plenty of shields queue up in Babylon to switch to Pyramids. Build Pyramids first, then Colussus starts up again. Colossus is a great standby when you get shielded out. We are much more likely to be beat to the Pyramids.

A guideline I may have missed - Hold Great Leaders for Wonder rushing in Babylon - The only exception Forbidden palace.

:crazyeyes I promised to nag if Babylon is doing anything silly:crazyeyes . Outside of that, no real commentary.

Playing. I'll post in a couple of hours or sooner.

2110bc - Pggarabi rises to power in the Babylonian Empire.
2070bc - We discovered the secret of Masonry. Trade it for Warrior Code + 9 gold with the Zulus. The Pyramids will be finished in 47 turns.
2030bc - Pggarville was founded.
1990bc - Babylon grows. Pyramids in 33 turns. Explorer warrior becomes elite
1790bc - Warrior destroyed a Barbarian camp.
1700bc - Settler leaves Ur.
1500bc - Finished my 20 turns. Babylon is size 6 now and can't grow till we connect the city to the source of gems. Don't take the warriors outside the city either; otherwise the citizens will riot.

The next player will finish the Pyramids (13 turns, I think). If we’re beaten to it, there’s the Colossus and the Oracle, but we seem to be the only civilization building wonders at this point. We’re researching Polytheism. It’s a good advance to be traded because it’s one of the last to be researched by the AI in the Ancient Times. Also, it’s in the path to monarchy. Here’s a screen with our settler and some suggestions of city placement. Good luck to whoever comes next.

Here's the game:

Up next - Sirian

Next goals for Babylon = Oracle, with Colusus as a standby. Keep expanding our empire.

I didn't keep a turn by turn log, but here's a summary of my reign.

Inherited turn: first action, increase luxuries to 10% and get that last worker into play in Babylon. The gold from the road paid for that anyway. Two turns shaved off Pyramid ETA, food increased to three, city to grow to 7 before Pyramids completed. Sent the settler on to the cattle area, near where Pggar marked one of his preferred sites. Sent the free ranging warrior eastward.

Next few turns: founded Ninevah, set it to building a warrior, with plans to rush a temple and barracks eventually. Ran into Zulu scout returning from the east. Next settler sent around past Babylon, another queued up. Warrior trained in Pggarville, considered rushing the temple, but shields were going at a good clip, calculated better results from not rushing, left it alone.

Next few turns: luxuries increased to 20% to keep Babylon at max output (once again paid for by the road). Founded another city near Ninevah, closer to home than Pggar indicated. The Zulus seem far enough away still not to need to rush rush out to grab the wheat area, and cities closer to home suffer less corruption, and can build more settlers more quickly.

Pyramids built. Took a turn to get a "free" worker from Babylon, since it takes the same amount of food to go from 6 to 8 with granary in place as from 7 to 8 without, and the city will grow back to 7 in a couple turns. One turn of shields used at Babylon, but I saved two turns or more with luxury use, so judge as you see fit. The extra worker was set to building roads out to the south, starting with that big old mountain.

Latter turns: Temple completed at Pggarville, which is in fine shape now and building settlers at what should be a good clip. Ur is suffering, but I'm fond of irrigating cattle and wheat squares, and it's now chugging out four surplus food per turn. Need some workers in the area, I think, but that must fall to someone else. Founded yet another city, this one near to Ur. Our "homeland" area is just about filled in now, except for cities to the east, where I found more spices and grasslands. Ninevah is training a veteran spearman. I'm leery of running warriors for too long, I like to get some military going on the frontier. Spearmen also being trained in the other new cities, but no barracks or temples there yet, on-deck player may want to flip these to temples.

Why we are so far from Literature with the Babylonians, I'm not sure, but the Zulu could not offer Alphabet, so I stuck with the plan I inherited. Polytheism is almost done. Colossus is almost done. Could perhaps swap that to Oracle, in the HOPE that other civs don't have their wonder-building cities on the coast, and we can snag Oracle, Colossus AND the Gardens. Of course, that could be risky, so I'm glad somebody else will be making that decision. :)

I thought this was going to be a one-city challenge. Since it's not, this should go over quite easily on Regent. We have the Pyramids and are spreading like locusts at this point. I personally would have irrigated the cattle at Babylon, but I did not undo the mining. And now, at this point, it's too late to matter so might as well leave it alone. I did irrigate the one at Ur, though.

NOTE: Luxuries must again be increased to 20% ON THE NEXT TURN, to keep Babylon at max output (and to prevent riots on the turn after that). I doubt we'll need more than 20%, but since all our hopes are to be pinned on cultural victory through buildup at Babylon, it seems to me all our efforts should be bent to helping it along.

Enjoyed my 20 turns, looking forward to the next go-round. How many turns will the next round hold? Don't think I saw that posted. Best of luck to the next leader -- and Happy New Year!


- Sirian

Up next - cdub

Babylon should have very little irragation. We need production max.

Change Babylon to Oracle. We can also fall back to Colossus. Oracle has a higher culture rating.

Where are the luxuries? I do notice a good city site north of Babylon.

Our biggest need - More military.

That is an awesome starting location! May I ask how you will build all the wonders in Babylon without the computer building them first? I actually just won a culture game with the Americans, only 8 wonders in Washington, and I won both ways.

Nice luxury rate managment. I'm using military strategies so much in my games, that I forget to use this.

Ohwell, we'll build all our wonders in Babylon. The AI will probably beat us to some wonders.

Lee, the city location is far to the northeast of Babylon. There's two spice sources there.

Originally posted by Ohwell
That is an awesome starting location! May I ask how you will build all the wonders in Babylon without the computer building them first? I actually just won a culture game with the Americans, only 8 wonders in Washington, and I won both ways.

I did restart to get this position. I only try for a 20000 pt game when -
1 - River (Growth / Hoover Dam)
2 - Ocean square (Collusus, Magelleans Voyage).
3 - Multiple 2 production squares

The computer will get some of the wonders. You don't need them all. The key is to get them EARLY, and the good ones that produce multiple culture points. A couple of 6 point ones help a lot. Biggest key I found - Capital city builds 1 settler, then temple, then 1st wonder.

There are still challenges -
War - you start weaker with this play. You need enough play room to keep Babylon going with wonders even during war!
Expansion - you cut a good settler source. Not a problem this game, as we have several cow cities.
Micromanagement of Babylon - How many times have you missed a wonder by one turn.
Science - Fail for a great science rate, and you will get killed. My current SP France found Leo's Workshop completed before I researched invention.


Pggar - Another spice city would be nice, but we need to find a different luxury.

Irrigation vs Mining. Sounds like a simple equation, but as with pop rushing via the whip, it can be more complex than what shows on the surface. A lot depends on the rest of the land you have.

In this case, there are about five or six grassland with shields, plus the cattle, some grassland without shield, a hills, and several mountains. Presuming cattle first, then several grassland with shields in a row, for the worker, it goes something like this.

If you mine the cattle, you get one extra shield per turn. Period.

If you irrigate, you get one extra food. This reduces the time necessary to grow another size from seven turns to five (without granary, from four to three with granary). If, upon growing, you bring a grassland square with shield, mine, and road online, you would get another 2 shields and 1 commerce from that. If you get that two turns sooner, you've picked up four shields and 2 commerce, by the time the city would grow with the cattle mined.

So... after seven turns, with the cattle mined you are at +7 shields. With it irrigated, you are at +4 shields, +2 commerce. Ah, but the irrigated cattle will grow AGAIN in three more turns, vs seven more for the mined cattle. If you then bring another mined, shield and road grassland online, you get another +2 shields and +1 commerce per turn from the newly worked square. You then have four turns of this before the mined cattle version would catch up and grow. That's +8 shields and +4 commerce.

After 14 turns, the mined cattle are at +14 shields. The irrigated cattle are at +12 shields, +6 commerce, and will grow again in one more turn, after which, the extra shields from the extra population unit will SURPASS the mined cattle and pick up net gains from there on out, until a ceiling is hit where you need an aqueduct, hospital, or more happy faces, to continue to grow, at which point you could always go back and mine the irrigated cattle, if desired. Being on a river further adds to the commerce gains. Could make two turns difference on a discovery, that early.

Now I know it's not as neat as that, as workers may not have fully improved squares ready to come on line, or the land may be less ideal than this plot of ground -- and settlers and granaries change the balance -- but the principle still holds. It's not just a matter of mining=production. Also, once out of despotism, it stops mattering at all, as every irrigation or every mine, on a plains or grassland, is equal to any other.

I would have irrigated the cattle. I would also not have whipped the temple in Babylon. We bought eight to twelve rounds of culture at 2 per turn, and maybe as many as fifteen rounds of 1000-year bonus coming sooner, at 2 per turn. So for about 50 culture points (which will be ONE turn, in the final equation, assuming all other things being equal, which they won't be), we whipped, which bought us either 26 or 24 shields but cost us a population unit, which is 2 shields and 2 commerce per turn, uh, forever. Or thereabouts. Definitely worth considering whipping a temple at 60 shields, but just 30, you can build that pretty quickly in the capital. A lost population unit in some corrupt frontier city, no big deal, as the shields from them would be wasted anyway. It's a much more problematic action closer to home. The farther from home, the more worthwhile the whip. At least in a building game. If your whole empire is poprushing horsies and rolling across the land, that's a whole different situation, in which you never expect to get out of despotism and don't care about anything in your cities. If you want to build, the whip should be weighed in its true cost, which means looking ahead at the full scope of what is lost vs what is gained.

Then again, if the land were a little poorer, or a little richer, it would make the same difference as being more, or less, efficient. And the game can be won without perfect land, so it can also be won without heroic efficiency -- which is a good thing for me, because I overlook stuff all the time. In my turn on this game, I lost a turn at Ur for not paying attention to what squares were in use. Made a mistake or two in exploring, not paying attention to what was shore or not. No cities rioted, but I get that on a regular basis, every few turns one slips my attention.

So in the end, theorizing has its own limits. You got us off to a grand start, lkendter. Our position looks good and I like our chances. :)


- Sirian

Sirian,
Well it looks like I have met someone who has spent more time on micro-management then me.:lol:

My logic was more to be able to start the Pyramids early, and not get beat to them. However, looking at your comments on city growth and gained shields, it may NOT have paid. True, I did start several turns earlier, but I failed to consider the size that Babylon would be for building the Pyramids. 7 turns later, but ahead by one pop point. In the end, did I save any time? :confused:

On the other hand, a city with flood plains, including wheat flood plains, is an auto whip city.

Waiting Up next - cdub, only at 12 hours.

Change Babylon to Oracle. We can also fall back to Colossus. Oracle has a higher culture rating.

I have downloaded the game, I have never tried this type of play before..... I am giving it my best shot! :king:

The honorable King Cdub takes the thrown, behold....

Inherited Turn- First things first, I switched the luxuries to 20%, Babylon is now constructing the Oracle.

975 BC- Ninveh is changed to a settler in an attempt to hury the expansion before the greedy Zulu. I sent the warriors out to explore the east and south more.

950 BC- Ashur completes spearman, a temple is ordered.

925 BC- Our exploring warrior discovers a native encampment.

900 BC- Warrior disperses the native encampment, 25 gold added to the coffers. Pggarville produces settler, a worker is ordered.

875 BC- Sending exploring warrior back to Nashur.

850 BC- Ur produces a temple, settler is ordered. Polytheism is discovered, the alphabet is orderd to be researched.

825 BC- Worker orderd to mine near Ur *Yawn*

800 BC- Worker produced in Pggarville, a barracks is ordered.

775 BC- Ninveh produces settler, spearman is ordered. Spearman in Ellipi is completed, worker is ordered.

750 BC- Worker constructs road near Ur *Zzzz*

730 BC- Oracle is constructed in Babylon :goodjob: ! Colossus is ordered.

710 BC- Ur produces Settler, barracks are ordered. Road is completed to the southern city of Ashur.

690 BC- Ashur produces a temple, a worker is ordered.

670 BC- Ellipi produces worker, a temple is ordered. The worker that is constructed is going to help a fellow worker on a road to the eastern future spice city. Akkad is built in one of Pggar's "future city locations" SW of Nineveh, a spearman is ordered to be completed.

650 BC- Alphabet is discovered, writing is ordered to be discovered (14 turns).

630 BC- Ashur produces worker, barracks are ordered.

610 BC- Pggarville completes barracks, a bowman is ordered to help protec the workers to the east. Spearman completed in Nineveh, a worker is ordered. *Uruk is built near the two spices to the east!* A temple is ordered so its borders will expand more quickly (possible whip for the next ruler???).

590 BC- Irrigation ordered near Babylon.

570 BC- Worker completes mine near Ellipi.

550 BC- Ur produces barracks, a settler is orderd. The filthy Zulu's buil Tugela is exact location one of our settlers was about to get to.

Well there are my 20 turns! I built 2 cities in some good locations, I have two workers building a road to connect Uruk as quickly as possible. I also researched the alphabet, with writing on the way, my thinking is that we should get to Literature as quickly as possible. I also produced extra workers to get roads and improvements up and going faster. Colossus is not far away, but I believe there will be some down time before the next wonder comes. I am really liking this game! I am so used to mass producing military and sacking cities, gets to be a chore after awhile. Good luck to Garsonga :king:

Up next - Garsonga

I can not say how happy I am to get Oracle. :D
Even when I pull off 20000+ city, I rarely get Pyramids and Oracle.

"my thinking is that we should get to Literature as quickly as possible." I agree. GL is a great culture wonder, plus you can't agrue with the science boast.

Next for babylon - Barracks, and veteran troops! This is a great waiting for next wonder trick. It can pump out a lot of troops in a short amount of time.

Wake the warrior in Nineveh. I would like to know what the map looks like past Ngome. I defintely will on my turn.

Of course, the Zulu's aren't to bad as neighbors. Our culture group, and VERY prone to culture flips in our favor. Take a look at the histograph and culture - before the Colusus!


EDIT: Delete histograph showing Babylon kicking Zulu butt in culture to save space.

I've got it playing will post in a couple of hours.

Humble King Garson begins his reign...

550-510 BC Improvements, two cities to wealth to improve cash flow.

490 BC Colosus completed, Babylon to wealth (sorry missed the part about building barracks, my bad won't happen again.) awaiting next wonder or culture improvement.

470 BC Settler recruited in Ur, started north to found city on grasslands north of Babylon. Zulu's beat us to the southeast cow and wheat :( sending settler northeast of Uruk.

450-430 BC Writing discovered, started literature 12 turns. Barbarians attacked Uruk they were destroyed by the defending warrior.

410 BC Spearman completed in Ur started another one

390-350 BC City of Eridu founded , started temple warrior in place.

330-270 BC Yawn! Spearman sent to reinforce Uruk.

250-210 BC City of Samarra founded, temple started warrior in place. Road completed to Uruk, additional spice added to Luxs.

190 BC Literature discovered, started GL in Babylon. Started Monarch research to set us up for Hanging Garden and change of government.

180-170 BC Temple complete, library started in Akkad. Bumped research down one notch to get positive cash flow Monarch in 23 turns.

May have got one extra turn in there, sorry wanted to finish Lit and start the GL

Notes to future leaders:

The Zulu's have a couple of techs we lack, if we finish a road to Zululand we may be able to make a spice trade and get one of those techs and some goodies.

Looks like things are going well! Good Luck!

Garsonga

Here's the file, tried the preview option on first message and lost the attachment.

Leeson reviews the empire.
Warrior in Akkad wakes up, and prepares to explore.
We are close to getting the 2 techs from Zululand, but I would rather get closer on complete the Great Library.

150 BC - Uruk completes temple.

130 BC - Bowman kills Barb. Right now $25 is a lot, and I am happy with it. Ashur rushes settler, and would like one more city near the Zulu area.

110 BC to 70 BC - Just more developement.

50 BC - I queue up MapMaking for science #2. Just south of Pggarville is a culture border. I want to know who it is.

30 BC - I am getting very nervous with the Zulu troop movements. Wealth cancelled, library cancelled, Akkad switches to walls. Shifting every possible unit toward the Zulu border. To improve relations, and our defense - Trade literature, $59, $1/turn for Wheel and Iron Working. We have horses already on our road net! 2 Iron sources, one near Babylon.

10 BC - The Zulu stack CROSSES our borders. Worker by Akkad retreats, thank god for the walls being built. Spearman #3 arrives in Akkad. Our new city of Lagash is built, and starts barracks. Worker rushes to Iron spot. Switch Sammara to Barracks and Rush build it. Very nervous right now.

10 AD - My fear was right. Zulu declares war on us. First attack fizzles.

30 AD - Dead Zulu Archer. I reduce science to 10%. It only cost us 3 turns for Monarchy, but gives us needed cash to upgrade our Warriors.

50 AD - Kill another Archer, but I suspect that Warrior will die. 3 turns to the Iron comes on line.

70 AD - Phony war.

90 AD - Golden Age as Bowmen kills warrior with Settler. Kish is started, the last city within our current borders.

110 AD - Kill an Impi trying to cut our horse source. Bowman killed attacking a 1 hp impi. :(

130 AD - Phony war.

150 AD - That civ south of Pggarville know has two borders we can see. Warrior upgrades completed, science to 70%.

170 AD - Kill two more warriors.

18
190 AD - More dead Zulu units. Nnow the Zulu want to talk :flamedevi:, when my stack of 8 is spotted by Umfolozi. They won't even offer a tech. BITE ME ZULU.

19
210 AD - It cost us 3 swordsman :( - but Umfolozi is destroyed along with several impi defeneders.

20
230 AD - Kill 5 Zulu units at the cost of 2 bowman.


Summary - Kill the Zulu. I see no reason at all for peace.

Next for Babylon - Library, then Hanging gardens. 20000 pt is looking good. To pull off 20000, you can't stop even during war.

My worry - we only know one other civ, and someone else may be pulling ahead of us and we don't even know it.

Up next Pggar - A chance to prove your military skills. I spotted trouble in time, and avoided lost cities. Your goal, go on the offensive. However, you can sneak in a library or 2. We can't neglect culture to much.
*** There is a stack of Archers near Tugela *** watch where they go.

Edit - Deleted old save game to save space.

I'm playing the game. I'll post soon with the results.

If we have the Great Library, we'd know if someone else was pulling ahead. The AI's can't pull far ahead without doing a lot of trading, and once they trade a tech, it would pop out of the library. What is there left to build? The Lighthouse, the Great Wall? This IS only Regent, after all. The AI's may have built a lot of cities, as they are good at expansion, but they don't seem too adept at growing those cities efficiently. Without the bonuses afforded them on Monarch and higher, I doubt they can keep up, much less pull ahead.

Still, it would be nice to know where the other civs are, and what they're up to. :)

- Sirian

I have my own Civ3 site, a modest operation. If you're interested, stop on by.

Sirian's Great Library (http://sirian.warpcore.org/civ3/greatlibrary.html)

Partial update. I’ll finish my 20 turns later today, as I have some stuff to do this afternoon. What should be the wonder built at Babylon? Any suggestions?

250ad - The Great Library finished in Babylon. 4 Zulu archers and 2 Impi destroyed. No casualties, but lots of damaged units.
260ad - Lost a bowmen. Destroyed 1 archer.
270ad - Discovered Monarchy. Destroyed an archer. Revolution started.
280ad - Library built in Babylon and Hanging Gardens started. Temple built in Lagash. Archer destroyed.
290ad - Settler left Ur. 3 archers destroyed and 1 swordman lost. Nippur founded. Revolution.
300ad - We're now a monarchy. Lost Bowman. Destroyed 3 archers.
310ad - Barracks finished in Kish. Destroyed 1 Impi and 2 archer. Lost 1 bowman.
320ad - Destroyed 1 Impi and 2 archer. Lost 1 swordsman. Ibabanago destroyed.
330ad - Destroyed 2 Impi and 5 archer.
340ad - 4 archer destroyed.
350ad - Peace with the Zulu for: Contact with the French + 72 gold + Philosophy + Tugela. In exchange of Monarchy, the French gave us: World map + 50 gold + 1gold/turn + Contact with the Germans + Map Making + Mathematics. And for World map they gave Horseback riding and 6 gold. In exchange of Polytheism, the German gave us: world map + 4gold/turn + 19gold. We’re completely updated, but now that I think of it the Great Library would have done that to us anyway. Sorry guys. At least we have their map and a healthier treasure.
Brake

370ad - Golden Age ended. I'm going for the Hanging Gardens (6 turns) because they give more culture, increase happiness and last longer.
400ad - Shuruppak was founded.
430ad - The Hanging Gardens were finished in Babylon. Going after the Great Lighthouse, but the French will probably finish it first.
440ad - The Indians built The Great Wall. Embassy was established in France. In 19 turns, Paris will finish the Great Lighthouse. It'll take 22 turns in Babylon. We met Montezuma and sold him Polytheism for World map, 7gold/turn and 130 gold. Didn't I tell you this was a valuable advance?

The next player should carry further negotiations. Try to sell the Aztec communication to other nations. Mind you that the Aztec people are not very advanced and will probably get techs in negotiations with other civs.

The 4 workers near Lagash are heading to Babylon, and getting there they should mine some tiles, so we can try to get in front of Paris in the Great Lighthouse race.

When you declare war to the Zulu (peace treat will last another 12 turns), it would be good to raze Swazi and replace it with a city in the tile to the north of Swazi (look at the picture). This way we'd take advantage of grassland tiles and would have less shared (by 2 cities) tiles. This is just my 0.02.

Here's the savegame.

Up next - Sirian

I think the Great Light House is a lost cause. Not only is France 3 turns ahead of us, but the are on a river and will grow in 10 turns. We can't adjust production that much, that quickly. :(

I see two plans with the Great Light House
1 - Bag it, build barracks and get more military.

2 - Play the science rate manipulation game. (My preference). France will beat us there, but we can have Sun Tzu instead.
At 70% science, Construction = 2 turns. We can make up the deficit with lots of trading. For example - Zululand with give us 68 for World map after haggleing. Then Currency in 6 or 7 turns, then feudalism. Repuplic will be our free Scientific gain, so we don't need to research it.
#2 also gives us the jump toward all those yummy middle ages wonders.


No matter what - I would mine the 2 mountains Babylon is using for future goodies. 20 shields = 1 spearman a turn.

Lagash needs more MINES! 2 shields from a size 5 city :(

Before the next round with Zululand - get the road net closer to him.

Originally posted by lkendter
Repuplic will be our free Scientific gain, so we don't need to research it.Not really. The fre tech is from the next age. It'll be either Monotheism, Engeneering or Feudalism. Most likely the first one. At least that's what happens in my games.

I played without reading your comments, LK, as I grabbed the game before you posted. I agreed with your assessment about the Lighthouse, it just seemed too risky with half a dozen civs out there we hadn't met yet.

Well as it turned out, the French built it, 19 turns later. We COULD have had it if I had followed pggar's plan. I just considered that too risky, though. So instead we have this: the colosseum and cathedral have been built, the Heroic Epic is half done, and we are one turn away from Feudalism.

Our game-winning moves have already been made. Getting five of the Ancient Wonders (and missing the two least important, culturally), and having the worldwide tech lead now, our victory is secure. To help protect it, I urge a moratorium on brokering tech to the other civs, unless some of them build up huge bankrolls of cash on hand (which means they trade around more). The longer it takes the AI's to reach modern age, the less likely we'll get into a space race, or miss out on the UN, etc etc. With domination disabled, we don't even have to worry about one of the AI's rising to supremacy and conquering all the others.

I've won 20000k in 1930 with the One City Challenge, and I only got three ancient wonders, including the Great Wall. This game is in the bag, just a matter of playing it out and seeing HOW GOOD the win will be.


On the inherited turn, I shuffled around a few cities to building settler units. Four cities (all needing aqueducts) started on settlers, and I had plans for all four. There were two half-city sites near Babylon, and another on the north coast, plus Pggar's plan to raze Swazi and replace it.

450ad: Established an Embassy with the Aztecs, Made a RoP agreement with Aztecs, got only 2 gold from them. Decided to explore around their land, see what I might find, rather than head for the goody hut way WAY to the south. Future renewals of the RoP should net significant gains, since they are essentially stuck forever on their little island, and won't grow any larger.

Pggar left me with a huge military in great position to attack once the peace was broken. I didn't see much need to add to it, but I did train a few more units.

Established embassy with Germans, sold them a RoP for about the same price, to recover the cost.

500ad: founded two of my three new half-cities. Sent the third settler south, still waiting on the fourth. Sold the French Monarchy for 21 gold per turn, and all the gold they had on hand (about 100).

510ad: spotted Persian cultural borders at sea, southwest of the Aztecs. Geared up for a risky drive out into treacherous waters.

520ad: Sent the galley out into the ocean. Made contact with the Persians! :love: Galley and horsie lost at sea. :( Established embassy with the Persians, locating their capital. They wanted an arm, leg, hand, head, and my firstborn for any of their offerings, including contact with the rest of the world, huge world map, or Republic or Currency. Told them where to stick it.

550ad: Aztecs developed mapmaking, started on Lighthouse. Decided not to risk them making contact with the Persians, so I sold the Persians contact with the Aztecs and territory map, for contact with the English. Sold the English Monarchy and world map for their territory map and contact with the rest of the world, and 7 gold per turn. Sold the Japanese my world map and contact with the aztecs and a sizable sum of gold for their world map. We now had the map of all territory of all civs. Traded a few gold here and there for other world maps, to complete our world map. All the rest of the civs were pretty much broke, so there was little more trading to be done. Sold our territory map to the Americans for about 50 total gold, some of it per-turn.

Considering how many civs had Republic, I wondered what was wrong with the Great Library, that it hadn't delivered up yet. Sold the Germans Horseback Riding for their cash on hand plus 1 or 2 per turn, thought might as well.

NOTE: did not sell contact between the "west" and the "east". We are, as of the end of my turn, still the only civ on the planet in contact with ALL the other civs. Our world map has gotten out, but its so pricey, most of the other civs haven't been able to trade for it yet, as they are all broke.

550ad (yes, still 550), Peace expired with the Zulu and I declared war on them immediately. Advanced our troops toward two of their cities. Captured two workers, killed a couple of troops on the western front.

560ad: suffered losses on retaliation. Zulu archers had INCREDIBLE luck in the middle of our line, killing four units with no losses! Ouch. On the left, lost one unit, too. Then it was our turn, razed Swazi to the ground, captured Umtata (think that was its name, or maybe it was Umfolozi). GREAT LEADER produced! I moved him toward our nearest city to create an army. Discovered Currency, got Monotheism for free, started on Feudalism.

http://sirian.warpcore.org/civ3/succession/lk-20k-leader.jpg

570ad: Zulu retaliation killed a unit or two, and they moved troops toward the front lines. Two of our swordsmen reached mountains in strategic locations inside Zulu territory and fortified. Our eastern front was quite thin and I was moving more troops up from the back lines. Put two swords and a bow into the army, and on the same turn, used it to kill a Zulu archer in the mountains above our central town, Shruppak. We can now build the Heroic Epic, worth 4 culture per turn! :love: We may also improve our odds of getting more leaders, as a result. Decided to let the Cathedral finish building first, though, as it would be done sooner, thus get into the 1000 year bonus sooner. Epic coming next.

580-610ad: Brutal, brutal exchanges on the western front. Watched the Zulu move a stack of nine units up to the front as we moved into position to attack their next city. Opted to attack the city instead of the stack, suffered a couple losses, razed it. The stack then split itself on the next turn, killed another unit or two of ours. By now, most of what we have left is elite, the rest are dead. A few reinforcements arrive. The Zulu shy away from our Army, which is holding the middle like a rock. The Zulu suffer casualty after casualty, and their settler in the west is captured as they try to rebuild their city. Our city to replace Swazi was founded where Pggar recommended. I did not have another settler to push forward into the vacancy, but the action over there was so heated, and our forces starting to look alarmingly thin, that I didn't think it was safe yet anyway. Started the Epic in 600AD, saw it would take 10 turns. Moved a grassland to the third mined mountain, reduced the build time to 8 turns, but now losing 2 food per turn.

Republic FINALLY pops out of the library. Why the delay, I have no idea. I guess a lot more than two civs need to discover tech on a larger map for the library to acquire it? Anyway...

620AD, switched to Republic government, put every city on max food for the one turn of anarchy. Had to increase luxury to 20%, and decrease science by 10% to 50%, once in Republic, but cut our research times in half. A couple cities were a little fussy about unhappiness but I rearranged them. Most of the aqueducts have been built by now, a couple remain. Ur is size 12 and soon ready to churn out military every other turn (at 15 net shields per turn). Been cranking workers out every other turn from Akkad and some other cities at size 7, while it is most efficient to do so. Our worker force is probably now quite sufficient for some time, including well over half a dozen newly captured Zulu slaves, but all this building and improving, workers and aqueducts and cathedrals, etc etc, has left our military thin. Going to need to put priority on training new units and soon.

630AD: managed to finally "win" on the western front, have it secured now. The eastern front, long unbothered, is now coming under attack and needs reinforcement. Where are the Zulu getting all these units? I didn't think they could make so many, without production bonuses from higher difficulty.

640AD: More heat suffered on the eastern front, counterattacked units and won, but then lost those to another Zulu counterattack. May have to move our Army in that direction, which means we need troops from the west to cover the middle. BAD NEWS: we are now suffering some war weariness. Already? Good grief. I had to increase luxuries to 30% AND turn a few workers into entertainers. The Zulu still won't talk to us, so we are going to have to endure. I think we'll be OK, although I may have switched to Republic too soon, considering this ongoing war. I now feel like I have been at war for ages, as it's taken a LONG time to take each turn with so much going on now.

650AD: my turn ends. I've got a number of cities training military, and more will be done with large projects soon and can switch to military also. We have control of the western front, but need to act to reinforce the east immediately. Troops are running a little thin, may even need to rushbuild a couple on the front lines. Up to the next player. Feudalism arrives next turn, so that should help, as we get pikes out there, those can better absorb the endless archer and impi counterattacks. I thought the Zulu would run low on units but they never have. I've made quite a few gains but things are looking thin, need to consolidate. If they will talk, making peace may be the best option, get what you can and rebuild our forces for 20 turns.

I urge that the Epic be completed, and AT the maximum rate, because it's the only thing we can finish soon enough for the 100year bonus to matter. One turn sooner will translate to FIVE turns of extra bonus, which is 20 culture, it MIGHT get us the win one turn sooner. After the Epic is built, swap off a mountain to irrigated land and return to positive food flow, and settle in to building a wonder (Sun Tzu, Sistine, whatever you like, the AI's aren't up there yet, although they may be close).

Here's something to consider: PERHAPS Ur should be started on a world wonder. There's just no way we can possibly build all the wonders at Babylon. 600 shields for Sun Tzu, 600 each for Sistine, Bach, Leo. I could be wrong -- I don't play below Monarch, so I'm not familiar with what the AI's can do here on Regent -- but if we let them all start on a wonder, and keep going and going and going, the runners up will switch to other wonders and grab them from us. If we build a wonder at Ur, we can interrupt that process, and stop them from cascading from one to the next, perhaps get an extra one at Babylon. Ur can even be set to build a palace, pending the arrival of tech that can allow us to build a second wonder. Then... it can switch to the wonder, build the one with LESS culture to it (Sun Tzu?), and have Babylon build the one with higher culture (Sistine?)

My 2 cents.

Good luck to the next player. You have some military challenges to face, but I left a number of units fortified, so you could choose what, if anything, you want to do with them. Brokering contact and world maps may fall to you. We are the masters of knowledge as my turn ends, in possession of all known tech, all known maps, and contact with every civ. What to sell to whom and when, if at all, is now out of my hands.

Best Wishes,


- Sirian

Up next - cdub

I agree with Sirian -
1 - Complete the Heroic Epic, I never realized how good of culture one that was.
2 - Babylon goes for the Big Culture item - Sistine Chappel.
3 - Ur can build the low culture, but usefull items - Leo's Workshop / Sun Tzu. Perfect Idea Sirian, start Sun Tzu in Babylon, research Theology, the Ur finishes Sun Tzu. In the mean time Sistine Chappel gets a good start.

I agree own position looks very good. I have played several games targeting 20000, but this is the first time I every got Pyramids and Oracle. The big ones for this era - Chappel, Bach, Newton, Shakespeare.
46/turn with 2852 total = 373 turns to go. We still need to get a couple more of the big ones.

We do have a decent tech lead -
The only country with Monotheism = Japan / Greece. Gives us a good shot for Sistine Chappel.
Germany / France are a JOKE!
Aztecs are so pothetic, I might be tempted to sell them Literature :crazyeyes
Nobody can offer us a thing :goodjob:

A different type of game we have going on here! Different types of situations for me to face :) ! I am loving this game. Downloading now....

Well cdub, I am glad to have you here. Really glad to have someelse who HATES automated workers.

This type of game can be fun, though I did almost lose on of these. It was also Babylon. England turned on me, took a city close to Babylon. Marching on a city next to Babylon. Then my new Zulu ally came to the rescue just 2 or 3 squares from Babylon. Give me another time to get my knights back from 30+ squares away.

Rule of war - Don't declare war on a rich player with tech lead. I can almost always find allies :)

Here is the Great Cdub's riegn...

660 AD- Umtata defects back to Zulu :mad: ! Feudalism is discovered, Theology is ordered up next to be discovered.

670 AD- The cathedral in Ur is produced, Forbidden Palace is ordered to be constructed :) . Swordsman ordered in Pggarsville, the Zulu's are rather ruthless fighters down south.

680 AD- Bowsmen are trained in Urkuk, swordsman are ordered to be trained.

690 AD- The Heroic Epic is built in Babylon :goodjob: ! Sun Tzu's is ordered to began construction. A stunning show of bravery by a Babylon bowman just south of Shuruppak, with only 2 energy levels he kills 3 fully powered Zulu Archers! Impressive. Umtata is recaptured by our army, it takes heavy losses in the conflict :soldier: .

700 AD- The brave bowman holds off 2 more Zulu archers and creates a Great Leader!!! The last attacker gets the best of our bowman and kills the Great Leader with it :( . This was a huge blow, but was expected. The bowman killed 5 full health Zulu archers before being killed in the battlefield. It was so close to surviving that last attack too... would have been nice. A peace treaty is signed with the Zulu's, they give us 62 gold and 20 gold/turn.

710 AD- A couple of cathedrals are constructed, swordsman were ordered to be trained to go south.

720 AD- 2 swordsman are completed, cathedrals are ordered.

730 AD- Worker and swordsman are constructed. The Aztec land a soldier near the Zulu, I decide to sell them contact with the Zulu before they meet, we get world map and 8 gold :( . Better then nothing I guess. I then sell the French our world map dor 12 gold, world map, and incense. I then sell the Japanese contact with the German for 1 gold/turn, world map, and 20 gold. Not much at all I know, but the Aztecs really screwed things up, and nobody had money at all! The Japanese now have contact with the whole world, us and them are the only ones.

740 AD- Aztecs settle city south of Zariqum. Eridu produces swordsman, worker is ordered.

750 AD- 2 workers and 2 swordsman are produced, cathedrals and marketplaces are ordered.

760 AD- Theology is discovered, Engineering is ordered to be studied. Sun Tzu's in Babylon is changed to Sistine Chapel (19 turns), Forbidden Palace in Ur changed to Sun Tzu's (32 turns).

770 AD- A worker is completed, the workers are being stacked into groups to get the infrastructure done faster.

780 AD- More infrastructure work, swordsman are ordered to the south.

790 AD- To get some much needed cash I sold the French Fuedalism for 32 gold, 10 gold/turn. Everybody in the world is building Sun Tzu's, or close too, I just saw a flurry of civ names saying they are constructed it.

800 AD- More infrastructure work, swordsman still heading south.

810 AD- The people decide that the Great King Cdub is worthy of a palace expansion. The King quickly gets loaded off Zulu imports, throws up, and passes out :eek: .

820 AD- You guessed it! More infrastructure work :D .

830 AD- Temple is constructed in Zariqum, a pikemen is ordered.

840 AD- 2 cathedrals and a temple are completed, markerplaces and a library are ordered.

850 AD- Right of Passage with Japanese renewed for 25 gold, it was that or 1 gold/turn. 2 marketplaces and a courthouse are constructed. 2 libraries and a worker are ordered.

There it is! Under Cdub's riegn Babylon completes the Heroic Epic, the Sistine Chapel is only 10 turns away, Sun Tzu's is 25 turns away. We could possibly switch Sistine Chapel and Sun Tzu's and for sure get Sun Tzu's, then change Babylon back to Sistine, no one has Theology yet... There is risk involved though. We are losing money rather fast, so to the next ruler my apologies. I worked on the infrastructure endlessly this turn, and adding a few more workers to the mix. Good Luck Garsonga! :king:

I've got it, I'll work on infrastructure, build up, and modernizing our forces in preparation for the next Zulu offensive. I'll post later on today. Got to get some work done toay first. ;)

Garsonga

So begans the reign of King Garson the Builder:

850 AD Engineering discovered started Invention

860 AD Improvements, dropped research to 30% to get positive cash flow, invention in 14 turns.

870 AD Monarchy to Perisians for World Map, 60 g and 6 g per turn.

880 AD Marketplace completed in Eridu, started Colossium.

890 AD Nineveh finishes a marketplace, started a cathedral.

900 AD Sold Indians Monarchy for 8 gold, World Map, and 2g per turn. Middleton completed it's harbor, started a temple.

910 AD We've got some cash flow now bumped research to 40% gives us Invention in 7 turns with a -13 gold loss per turn.

920 AD Zulu's requested a continuation of the peace treaty, I agreed I'd like to have Gunpowder before we start another war.

930 AD Zulu's want our world map, I sell it to them for their World Map and 8 gold. Samarra finishes its aquaduct and starts building a courthouse. Trade contact with Americans and Monotheism to French for Incense. We need those luxeries.

940 AD Improvements, Yawn....

950 Great news! Babylon finishes Sistine Chapel. started them on marketplace to improve income.

Only had time for 10 turns today, please feel free to take my other 10 there Lee. Not much going on, making improvements and working our tech to get Gunpowder so we can modernize.

Good Luck!

Garsonga

Lee the diplomat has been found. Luxuries reduced by 10% to get us a positive cash flow. We begin getting embassies.

960 AD - We have nothing to hide, so I begin trading world maps to the world. We could really use the cash! Total net is $89 plus $6/turn. Plus some updated map information from other civs. Enough money for another embassy. Iroqouis building Sun Tzu in 23 turns.

990 AD - Switch Babylon to Leo's workshop. I go for education next, as there is a high risk of wasting shields trying for the workshop. If Iroqoius have invention by then ... Several civs have the needed pre-reqs for invention. Running at deficit, so I trade another round of world maps. I don't get a lot this time :( Still need another 3 embassies. Rush the courthouse in Shuruppak.

1000 AD - Shurppuk begins the forbidden palace. Due in 100 turns. Once we take the Zulu's out, this will help our production a lot.

1010 AD - The Iroqois starting to get an attitude, demanding a tech. Relationships are getting worse.

1020 AD - The two continents have mostly found each other. I don't see a reason to keep holding back communications. Net gain is just $83, as most of them have found each other.
Japan has Chivalry :(

1030 AD - Foolish Aztecs. Atzcapotzalco quits, and joins our empire. :lol

1080 AD - Sun Tzu is finished in Ur. The Iroqoius are building the workshop.

1090 AD - The people love me, and the palace is taller.

1130 AD - I trade a tech. Give Greece education for Chivarly + $50. I hate to give any tech away, but we need Knights.

Summarry - I really don't think we will get the workshop. However, we have the culture wonder of Bach's Cathedral to switch to.

Playing.

1160ad - Sold spices to the Aztecs for 3gold/turn, wmap and 7gold.
1170ad - The Americans demanded Chivalry and declared war when denied.
1180ad - Zzzz
1190ad - Salamanca built Leo's Shop.
1200ad - Told the Zulus to get the hell out of our borders.
1210ad - JS Bach's Cathedral finished in Babylon.
1220ad - Zzzz
1230ad - Discovered Gunpowder. I chose the path to Economics. Smith's Company will increase our science output. We have one source of saltpeter near Unmata.
1240ad to 1265ad - Zzzz
1270ad - Connected Saltpeter source. Upgraded some spearman in the Zulu borders.
1275ad - Positioning troops to engage in a war.
1280ad - The Zulu ask me to remove my troops and I ask for Right of Passage. They accepted, and I positioned all troops in the right spots. Then I went to renegotiate our Peace Treaty with the Zulus. War was declared because they didn't give what was demanded. Ngome was captured (1 swordsman lost, 1 catapult in the city). Ulundi was captured (no loses, 1 catapult in the city). An unfortified Impi (in a desert) killed two of our knights(HOW???) :mad:.
1285ad - Resistance ended in both captured cities. Zulu longbowman killed bowmen. Ulundi catapult damaged the strongest Impi alive. Longbowman and the most powerful Impi on earth were killed by two swordsmen (grief :D). Temples rushed in captured cities. Impi and archer Zulu group killed.
1290ad - Palace was improved. A musketman was killed by a longbowman.
1295ad - The dumb Zulu piled up next to our offensive force. 3 archers, 1 longbowman and 1 impi were killed. No fatal casualties to our side.
1300ad - Knights killed 2 impi in Zimbabwe. I decided to sell Chivalry around the globe because Greece and Japan already had it. We got:
Iroquois - 13/turn 60gold wmap
Indians - 16/turn 3gold wmap
France - 8/turn 4gold
Aztecs - 7/turn 22gold wmap
England - 3/turn 20gold wmap
Persia - 1/turn 6gold wmap
Total: 48/turn+115gold.

Summary
- We have a wealthy economy.
- Economics will be researched in 5 turns thanks to the other nations.
- You can and should build more banks. Remember that 5 are needed for Wall Street.
- Our troops are in position to take Zimbabwe. We don't have the strongest military force, but neither does the Zulus.
- All Rights of Passage deals we had were cancelled. The foreign attitude towards us is not the best.
- Spice deal with the Aztecs will end next turn. Check it out.

Take a look at Zimbabwe.

Here's the game.

Up next - Sirian Your challenge, end the Zulu war. I just hope we aren't forced to take Intombe. That long of a war will kill us.

I agree with Pggar - the civ attitudes toward us suck. We need to improve these

5 turns to economics and the trading company - Building one more knight with Babylon is a hard decision - If we start a bank, then switch we could build up 100+ shields toward it. Once we get economics, we need positive cash flow. I want to upgrade to all musketmen.

The great news - We have 176 turns left to 20000. Smith's trading company will make that less. We just have to make sure we survive that long.

On my inherited turn, I looked the situation over, determined that we had plenty of military for the task at hand, and switched every city in the empire over to infrastructure, mostly banks, some universities, a couple harbors or cathedrals. Then I went to check on how much luxury spending we actually needed, found that we needed none. Only had to make one entertain in one city, plus starve the newly captured Zulu cities (would have done that anyway), so luxuries were dropped to zero. This allowed me to speed research to 4 turns for Economics, and get a positive cash flow. Luxuries make happy people and that helps the score, but we don't care about the score here, do we? So... zero luxury it is.

The city on wealth (which offers a woefully useless one gold per eight shields early, and one for four after banking?) was switched to a harbor. I used to like Wealth (Capitalization) in Civ2, but they have dumbed it down too far in Civ3. I see it as a waste. Better to run deficits sometimes, and slow research if the treasury threatens to go broke, I believe. That requires keeping an eye on the science and luxury rates, but that's not a problem for me. Since it would cost 4 gold per shield to rushbuild, Wealth offers a 1/32nd to 1/16th cash value for each shield, that's pretty ugly.

Pggar's Right of Passage betrayal has pissed everyone off. No one will sign a RoP with us anymore without us offering a fortune. Was a sneak attack really worth that much? Well, I'll have to deal with it. First time I've ever been in this situation, as I do not do RoP betrayals in my own games. The penalties for such are unrealistically mild -- even more so than I thought, as I would soon discover. The AI's ought not to trust the player ever again after such a move. Like the ability to endless whip size 1 cities, the RoP betrayal needs some reworking in a future patch. I don't think it should be taken off the table, but it ought not to be a "no brainer" in terms of the cost-benefit ratio like it is now.

Pggar has twice now left me with a grandly strong military in a warmongering position. This time the war was actually ongoing, as he had taken two cities and moved into position to get the enemy capital. All I had to do to win that battle on the next turn was... to attack.

1305: One enemy longbow killed a Babylon unit. I didn't even get to see what took place, so I went in to preferences and turned on Animate Battles. Zimbabwe razed to the ground. (City flips are somewhat based on how much enemy culture there was before capture, so a palace capture this late in the game is pretty much auto-raze for me. Because of the Palace culture, and old temples/libraries, capitals are always in the 1000s of culture by now, way too much revolt risk for my taste). We picked up about seven or eight slave workers and some catapults. Rest of military position consolidated. We had plenty enough military to get this job done, if I did two things: not scatter the forces trying to take too much at once, and not have to leave behind a large chunk of units on garrison. Thus another reason Zimbabwe had to be destroyed.

1310: wounded units all over the place fortified so they could heal up. Muskets fortified on key roads to prevent effective counterattack on the flanks while I moved the bulk of our units into position to attack Hlobane -- the next largest Zulu city, which would also be razed.

1315: Hlobane razed. Moved a force of four knights into position to attack Mpondo, moved the Stack of everything else toward the city southwest of former Zimbabwe.

1320: Economics researched, Babylon switched from bank to Smith's. Mpondo captured. Stack moves next to other city. Renewed the spice deal with Aztecs at increased cost to them.

1325: Resistance in Mpondo ended. Other city captured. Moved half a dozen knights into position to attack final city, backed by a few slower units moving up behind them in case of minor chance of knights failing. The English were wiped out.

1330: Isandlwhana captured. Zulus pushed off our continent for good as their last major city falls. Zulu capital moved to town on French continent, ensuring that minor Zulu colonies on isle to northeast will be taken in the Peace negotiation soon to come.

1335-45: Some banks completed, Ur switched to Palace in preparation to build Smith's. Astronomy researched, Babylon switched to Copernicus (worth more culture and will be done sooner), Ur switched to Smith's, Kish switched to Palace in preparation for building Magellan. Two Caravels queued up at Ninevah just in case we do have to land troops on the Zulu island. Settlers built to fill in gaps left by razings. Zulu cities starved down to size 1, then regrown. (Reducing foreign nationals, in combination with strong garrisons, ensures little to no loss of captured cities in revolt).

1350: Zulus finally talk, give us their colonies and all their maps and gold for peace. Neither colony has a harbor, so the units we get for free are only spearmen. I move our first ship in that direction, intending to reinforce some stronger troops to the island. Ten rounds of zero luxury and max efficiency on adjusting the science rate each turn, so we get discoveries every four turns but minimal waste on the last turn, have left us with nearly 1000 gold in the treasury. I ran through and upgraded a bucketload of spearmen to musket. Still a lot of upgrading left to be done, but more can wait, as it's better to stay on top of pulling out to the biggest tech lead possible. Decided to talk to the Americans, who are now willing to pay us 20 gold for peace. Babylon is now at peace.

1355: resumed building knights at one per four turns north of Babylon, muskets at one per four or five turns in a couple of cities. Settled some of the gaps, need one more settler, and the Aztecs are rushing a galley in that direction, surely hoping to grab a piece of land.

1360: Navigation. Worldwide trade now possible for us. Time for the planet to dine on fine Babylonian spices. Traded spices to Iroquois for Furs and a bucket of cash per turn (them paying, they have a HUGE empire). Sold spices to every western nation who could afford them, GAVE them to the Greeks and Persians, who were broke, for 20 turns, to improve relations. However, next time, if they can't pay up, no more free lunch. Traded Iron to the French for Incense and some gold per turn. Musket reinforcements carried to Sirian's Isle. Some temples rushed in captured Zulu cities and new settlements. Traded Music Theory and some cash to somebody (forget who) for Printing Press, started researching Democracy. Kish switched to Magellan's. Sent a musket onboard a ship eastward into the ocean, intending to sail clockwise around Germany, all the way south to grab that goody hut before borders expand and swallow it up.

1365-75: Our workers had long ago finished all worthwhile improvements in the heart of our land. I moved about a dozen of them north to the tundra, irrigated a temporary path through Uruk to get water to that lone grassland for Igloo, then rebuilt one destroyed mine. Planted forests all around Igloo, and now I started chopping some of them down for the shields, to hurry along that much needed harbor. When that was done, replanted the forests a second time (for keeps), so don't bother lumberjacking up there, it's already been done. I also planted a few forests around Ur to speed construction of the wonder.

1380: Democracy. Held off on the revolt, even though it would be only one turn of anarchy, as I wanted to complete research into Free Artisistry, and start construction on Shakespeare's on my turn. The theater, at 8 culture per turn, is a must-get to hurry along our victory. Whether we will also be able to grab Newton and its 6 per turn, in Babylon, remains to be seen. If not, we can get Suffrage, though, so there should be at least two more wonders in a row built after my turn.

1385: On the way to the goody hut, spotted shallow waters out in the middle of nowhere, gave on the hut and went to have a look at these uncharted islands. Started construction of Wall Street in Akkad.

1390: Copernicus built in Babylon. Spotted iron and horses on small islands, decided to rush a settler from Igloo to grab at least one of these sites. We could trade the Iron to somebody for a luxury, maybe, although the island with the horses looks more attractive as a colony site. Still, the island with the Iron has only two squares, and if we build a city on one and fortify a unit on the other, the island would be impregnable to capture until marines come along -- although a harbor would remain vulnerable to naval bombardment. Which island to grab will be left up to the next player.

1400: Free Artistry. Traded Music Theory and 20 gold per turn to somebody for Chemistry. Sold Spices to the French for a modest fee. Loaded a Settlement Kit onto our Caravel near Uruk (settler, worker, military), so that one of those islands with resources could be grabbed. Set research to Physics for four turns at a minor deficit. Set Shurrupak to food deficit to speed Forbidden Palace by three turns. Set Babylon to food deficit to speed Shakespeare by a turn. Babylon can be switched back to break-even food after seven more turns, so keep an eye on it.

I urge micromanagement of science bar each turn to keep each breakthrough at 4 turns per with minimal wasted, at least through end of middle ages. It's going to take longer in the next era per breakthrough, but that can wait until the next era. Get to Theory of Gravity soon, and if people start to build Newton's before Babylon finishes the Theater, swap Akkad to Newton's to prevent anybody else from getting it, and let Babylon build Wall Street or Suffrage next. There's absolutely no reason we should let anybody else ever build another Great Wonder. Get Steam Power before Military Tradition, as we've already won our war and have nothing useful to gain by more aggression unless it turns out that there's no coal anywhere on our continent. In fact, let the AI's research Cavalry for us, and trade them gold or obsolete techs for it later, as we press on toward Theory of Evolution and Hoover Dam. I also see no need to upgrade every last troop we have unless somebody declares war on us and really comes after us, bringing fleetfuls of troops to our shores. Defending over land vs the AI is a task, but if they have to cross water to get to you, it's MUCH easier to beat them back. Save our cash, and keep the science going. If we really NEED to upgrade units because we are being attacked, we can run 10% science or even zero with a scientist specialist, for a few turns, to raise a tub of cash in a hurry.

In 1460, renegotiate all our spice deals with the west, except perhaps with the Iroquois -- let them pay us at that rate as long as they are willing to continue doing so. On my turn, I finished the war, secured our continent, built all kinds of banks and other improvements, researched five techs and acquired two more, built a wonder and secured three more, improved relations with everyone in the world, and discovered what is likely the last of the unknown islands, to our east.

I urge completion of Magellan's before the change to Democracy, but don't wait much longer after that. We're going to need the increased worker efficiency to speed rail building. Once the FP is built, a whole lot of cities will need to be re-examined, and our economy will take off like a rocket.

Best Wishes.


- Sirian

Up next - cdub

I definitely got a good crew for this one :)
1400AD after just one week!

The attitudes of the AI seem better.

My only issue - positive cash flow. Wall street is on the way, and I want to take advantage of the interest.

:goodjob: to the last 2 leaders, I am glad to FINALLY see Zululand off our continent.

We can't stop that Aztec city, but it will probably flip to us shortly.


Our science lead is HUGH! Not a single civ could give us a tech.

What Aztec city? :)

I didn't leave the AI any "legal" settlement sites, by its evaluation routine. Those Aztec units have been there a while, will be there forever, and we might as well leave them there, too. They're harmless.

Wall Street is a long way off. ONE round of all cash could catch us up by then. Smith and Forbidden Palace are slated to hit before Wall Street, we'll get probably 300 more income per turn just from those two improvements, counting bonus from libraries etc.

Aren't domination and conquest disabled? I seem to remember mention of that. At this point, we could probably fortify everything and click next turn 100 times. :) I don't recommend it, but at least get to Steam and Sanitation asap, then worry about the cashflow.

My 2 cents.


- Sirian

Originally posted by Sirian
What Aztec city? :)

I didn't leave the AI any "legal" settlement sites, by its evaluation routine.

- Sirian

Can you give me insight into what is a computer "legal" settlement? Could prove of great use at some point.

Downloaded, will post results in an hour or two... :king:

Holy Jeez!!! I spent 30 minutes writing my about my reign and the board tells me too many images and deletes the whole thing :mad: ! Oh well here is a brief summary (the first one was a lot better, I apologize)-

1415 AD- Magellan's Voyage is complete in Kish.

1420 AD- Became a Democracy

1425 AD- Physic's is discovered, Theory Of Gravity to be researched.

1430 AD- Colony Cdub founded on Iron Island.

1445 AD- Theory Of Gravity discovered, Magnetism is to be researched.

1450 AD- French settle Bayonne on Horse Island, we had a settler on the way there, contemplated an invasion, but did not want war weariness.

1455 AD- Smith's Trading Company completed in Ur. Cash flow now +10 turn.

1460 AD- Forbidden Palace constructed in Shuruppak. Wheeled and dealed our spices, we are now at +84 turn!

1465 AD- Magnetism is researched, Metallurgy is ordered to be studied.

1480 AD- Babylon constructs Shakespeare's Theater, Newton's University is to be constructed. Privateers are ordered to be constructed in random cities.

1485 AD- Metallurgy is discovered, Steam Power is ordered to be researched. We are in a "New Era of Prosperity". Nationalism is given to us. Palace expands.

My turn ended in 1500 AD! This is just a skeleton of what happened. I named it the "era of no gratitude" because infrastructure and city improvements were the name of the game, and frankly thats not how hero's are made ;) . I got our economy out of the red and we are now getting +122 a turn. We have 1000 gold in the coffers, Wall Street is 2 turns away, Steam Power is 3 turns away.

To the next ruler--- this game is in the bag, have some fun! I chose to build some privateers to have some fun in foriegn waters, I love doing that :D . But to each his own, your the ruler now... :king:

LK, sure, no problem. I figured this out by watching the AI's, it's a simple pattern. I've created an image and marked a number of squares on a grid around an example city.

http://sirian.warpcore.org/civ3/pix/ai-settlement-logic.jpg

Every square within two radius of the city, plus squares directly on the axes at 3 radius, are considered "too close" to existing cities by the AI, and it will not settle in any such square. You take this pattern, mentally apply it to every city in the area, and take note of the white dots this matrix would create. All those squares are off limits, as are any lands within the cultural borders of any civilization. If every square in an area is off limits, the AI's will not settle. Fairly simple.

This information can be exploited in a number of ways, including what would be necessary to prevent the AI from founding cities you don't want them to -- be that by way of choosing your own sites to crowd out all legal AI sites, or by stationing units on such squares until your cultural boundaries reach out to cover them for you. I chose a pattern to crowd out the AI in our game, to reduce our hassles. This info can also be used to station units on sites where the AI MIGHT settle, but early in the game when you can't stop them from settling somewhere, but might be able to limit their encroachment on your borders or into some area you hope to grab for yourself by interfering with their ability to reach sites of highest interest to them.

I believe there is another layer of "undesirable but legal" squares around the white dot area, as the AI tends to put more distance than that to its cities if it can, but that sort of thing is more difficult to nail down solely from observation.


- Sirian

Up next - Garsonga

Well there is no question a succession game can pull off a 20000 pt city win. We have a little over a hundred turns to go, WITHOUT newtons.

I may have to start thinking about game LK8 ;)

Hi there, I don't know if you're following the RBD succession games or not, but that's the general group that I came from to here. I've been following this game since I saw that Sirian was playing in it.

You guys have proved (and proved well) that the one city cultural win is attainable in a succession game with the scientific/religious Babylonians, who get both religious and scientific cultural improvements on the cheap, so why not up the ante for LK8? How about doing it with the Zulu (or the Americans, or some other civ that doesn't happen to be Scientific or Religious)? Or perhaps make it a true One City Challenge, no settlers, and raze any captured cities. Or perhaps both? :flamedevi

I would definitely like to take that challenge! Sign me up if LK8 is going to be like this!!! :king:

I believe the difficulty factor, much more than the civ choice, impacted the degree of victory here. Saving a couple of turns on some libraries and cathedrals hardly mattered, since the real strength of the win came in landing so many wonders. It would have been the same as the Americans, and perhaps easier as the Zulu, with the military strength to a win a war sooner. If the AI had production bonuses, that would have (among other things) prevented us from getting quite so many ancient wonders.

This was a good team. Pggar expertly built up just the right amount of troops to hand me ready-to-win military scenerios on both of my last two turns. All I had to do was not blow it. :)


- Sirian

First off - GREAT JOB! It's been lots of fun watching you play. Great team work!!!!!!!

If you do another one, I think it will be interesting if your starting position is not as good. I agree that the main reason for your success has been the ability to build virtually any wonder when and where you wanted. Had you started a little slower, I think the odds would have been reduced and it would have been more challenging.

Whatever you play next, we'll be watching!!

Got it, playing now will post in a few hours.

Garsonga

So begins the reign of King Garson the Railroad man.

1500-1505 AD Wall Street completed in Akkad. Building riflemen in various cities.

1510 AD Steam Power discovered. Started Electricity 6 turns.

1515-1535 AD Started building railroads to connect the cities.

1540 AD Discovered Electricity, started Medicine 6 turns.

1545 AD Joan wanted MPP and RoP I sent her packing with 10 gold. Zulus declared war on France imagine that!

1550-1560 AD French destoryed Zulu's, guess you don't mess with Joan huh. Discovered Medicine, started sanitation.

1565 AD Playing with Privateers, thanks CD! Redid spice trade with Aztec's, 30 gold and World map they're polite with us now! Well, guess they really like our spice.

1570-1575 AD Newton's University completed in Babylon.

1580 AD Sanitation discovered. started researching replaceable parts.

1585-1595 AD Played with the Privateers and build railroads.

1600 AD Started hospitals in several cities, retired to a little house by the railroad station, get to watch the trains come in!

Good Luck future leaders!

Garsonga

Lee the culture monger is back again ;)

Pre-turn - We have over $4000, so upgrades coming soon. However, I will wait until replaceable parts before doing so.

1605 AD - Our privateers are wimps. Lose one trying to kill a junk ship. Railbuilding / Production.

1610 AD - American comes asking, so we give them Democracy for military tradition, $13, and world map. We probably won't need it, but Ur begins the militrary academy. We begin researching Scientific method, since I want the wonder. Switch Sirian's Isle south to Harbor, so that it can access our resources. Of course, resource screw over, and we don't have rubber. More R/P.

1615 AD - Burn down a lot of cash upgrading our forces. More R/P.

1620 AD - Tell the Aztecs to leave, and there do :) More R/P.

1625 AD - Scientific method completed. Researching Industrialization. More R/P.

1630 AD / 1635 AD - Just R/P.

1640 AD - Our privateers do something and sink 2 caravels. Scracth 1 civ - America destroys the Indians.

1645 AD - Back to the exciting R/P.

1650 AD - Express rush a factory for Babylon, now that we know industrialization. Of course, R/P.

1655 AD - Theory of Evolution ordered. It will take just 12 turns! Persia demands spices, I refuse, then give him a free world map. Persia back to polite. Eridu orders up battlefield medicine. Can't forget, R/P.

1660 AD - R/P is paying off -I watched the number of turns to complete Battlefield medicine drop as I built the net around Eridu.

1665 AD - Oh well, back to turns of just R/P.

1670 AD - We have an elite Privateer. Of course, still doing R/P.

1675 AD - ZZzzzzz. The culture monger is having a hard time staying awake. Must be do to the exciment of R/P.

1680 AD - The military academy is done. I didn't bother with an army, as this one is almost done! More R/P.

1685 AD to 1700 AD - Wake me up when the railnet is done.


Summary - Universal Sufferage in Babylon next. ToE completes in 3 turns. Babylon has 60 turns to the game ends. 106 culture a turn with 13879 total. This is without Toe.


This is my last round

Up next - Pggar

Edit - Deleted old save game to save space.

Why this game is over :)

I got the game. I'll probably post the results by this time tomorrow or a bit sooner.

1705ad - Privateers are fun.
1710ad - Cities with all infrastructure buildings finished are changed to wealth
1715ad - France offers a MPP and I refuse it. War is the last thing we need now. However, I got wmap, 29gold and 7gold/turn for the RofP deal. WE've completed Theory of evolution. We got communism and Espionage with it. Damn!!! 15 turns to Universal Suffrage.
1720ad - "We Love The King Day" celebrated all over Babylon. We have lots of money, the science rate cannot go above an advance/4 turns, so I wonder why not give our people some entertainment. They deserve it. Akkad started the Inteligence Agency.
1725ad - Eridu completed Battlefield Medicine.
1730ad - Ur is buildin Hoover Dam (20 turns)
1735ad to 1745ad - Zzzz
1750ad - The railroad net is completely finished. Now the worst part is micro wondering workers that have nothing to do.
1752ad - Zzzz
1754ad - Sold spice to Persia and Aztecs and renegatiate all deals that didn't involved foreing luxuries. Everybody is polite to us now. This was quite sudden and unexpected.
1756ad - All Zulus workers are stacked and fortified near Umtata. There is a stack of regular workers near Babylon. Akkad completed the Intelligence Agency.
1758ad to 1762ad - Zzzz
1764ad - We've discovered steel. Babylon finished the Universal Suffrage.
1766ad - Our last Privateer was destroyed.
1768ad - Zzzz
1770ad - I finished my participation in this game.

Nothing else to do besides cleaning up pollution. This was a great game and my last on regent. I'm moving to monarch. I would like to ask that the last player post the game so I can see how it finishes and have it in my high scores. Thanks.

General Sirian elected to Presidency. Defense budget increased. Army modernized. Navy... uh, created. Air Force... initiated.

With absolutely nothing consequential to do (could even have ignored the pollution, although I didn't -- what a CHORE that is, since they broke the automated pollution cleanup command with the last patch) I decided to secure a source of rubber, peacefully. So the first half of my turn was building a couple transports and loading them, sending them south and building a couple dozen destroyers and battleships. The second half was spent building 57 tanks and starting a couple of airports. Blew our cash reserves on a complete refit of all troops, and rushbuilding essential items for the new colonies. We have arrived in the modern age, and Babylon is building the Pentagon in 3 turns, which will raise culture from 113 per turn to 114, making absolutely no difference whatsoever.

The next player up will complete the game. Clicking Next Turn a few times will do the trick, or amuse yourself by conquering somebody. Thanks guys, I had fun. :) Looking forward to watching the replay.


- Sirian

Winning the game - cdub
Currently at 24 hours and waiting.

Hi Sirian,

What is broken about the pollution cleanup? I'e never played without the patch so dont know what it did before!:confused:

In v1.16f (current patch), when using shift-p to auto-send workers to clean up pollution, the function will now only stack two workers per polluted square. I suppose there is some reason for this linked to the rest of the automated functions, perhaps something to deal with a problem, such as an endless loop.

You used to be able (with rails) to hit shift-p as many times as it took to either clean up all the pollution, or assign all your available workers. Now you have to manually move the workers after the first two, which is definitely not as good as it was before.


- Sirian

In v1.16f (current patch), when using shift-p to auto-send workers to clean up pollution, the function will now only stack two workers per polluted square. I suppose there is some reason for this linked to the rest of the automated functions, perhaps something to deal with a problem, such as an endless loop.

Thanks for the info! I noticed that too actually but didnt realize it was a bug, ie different from before the patch..

Great game guys! I'm enjoying following it!

Skipping - cdub

Garsonga - Please downloadthe game, and finish the last handfull of turns.

Okay, I've got it. I'll post when it's over. If I can figure out how I'll add a screen shot of the winning screen. Do you want the last turn or the turn before the win?

Garsonga

We Did IT! Here the sequence of events.

It took a few more turns than I expected but we won it. Sorry couldn't get the print screen function working on my system.

1810 AD Tanks completed in various cities. Bomber completed on Sirian's Isle.

1812 AD Clean lots of pollution

1814 AD More tanks completed, boy if we needed to go to war we'd be in there.

1816 AD Pentagon completed in Babylon, started Airport
France and Persia signed a peace treaty

1818-1822 AD France and Greece sign a peace treaty

1824-1826 AD More pollution patrol

1828 AD America and Japan sign an alliance against France.
America declares war against France.

1830 AD Sell Lincoln Medicine for 60 gold and 12 gold per turn.

1832-1834 AD Perisa and America sign a peace treaty.

1836-1838 AD WE WIN!!!! Cultural Victory.

I've attached the save game 1 turn prior to the win! Enjoy, been fun playing with you all.

Garsonga