MIA Grand Strategy Meeting ! [Archive] - Civilization Fanatics' Forums

General_W

Oct 19, 2005, 12:03 PM

Ok – since I won't be around this weekend for the big strategy chat, I'd like to share a few of my thoughts on this topic.
Hope it helps!
(please note – all of this is my opinion, and I hope some of you disagree/prove me wrong! Otherwise, I'm painting a pretty grim picture)

Part 1
On Victory Methods

This is the one I have the hardest time with – and therefore I think needs the most attention.
HOW will we win this game??

Cultural: we'd have to be insane to try for a 100K victory. 20K is more reasonable – but we should've built a temple a long time ago.
Pros:
1) No competition – every team seems focused on expansion or military
2) Given that we'll probably be out expanded by every other team – this is a nice strategy for a smaller civ.
3) Our cheaper science buildings help.
Cons:
1) We'll have a heck of a defensive job to do – and it could get exciting as other teams catch on and try to snatch key wonders away from us.
2) We're already behind and should have built a temple 40 turns ago. Someone could do the math, but at this point, I don't think we could pull this off before 1900AD.

Spaceship
It's hard to imagine the game lasting this long. But – I know I've said this before – humans tend to realize that if they are at war – and other humans aren't – unless they get big victories, they will fall behind the peaceful players. This tends to really limit war. The fact that there hasn't been any major wars so far – means either a) all hell is going to break loose in the Medieval era or b) this could be a weirdly peaceful game.
Pros:
1) Greeks are probably the best civ in the game to win a space race victory.
2) IF the destined TNT v. Doughnuts war ends up as a stalemate with heavy losses on both sides, and IF KISS leaves us alone (or maybe even gets involved overseas), and IF we manage to avoid getting dragged down in the war – then we've got a shot at beating KISS on a spaceship.
Cons:
1) I still can't believe that SOMEONE won't go for a domination win long before we get here. How would we stop them? If we get drug into an all out war, then we're pretty much abandoning the Spaceship strat anyway.
2) If/when TNT or Doughnuts emerge as the victor in total control of their continent – the quest for Domination win will begin, and the weaker civ on our continent will be attacked (likely to be us). A massive war for survival on our continent will pretty much kill our potential for a space race win.

Conquest/Domination
Dom/Conquest seems to be what's left. It's the easiest, most straight-forward way to win. Unfortunately, it will also be the hardest way for the Greek/MIAs to win.
Pros:
1) If we go for this, and hit KISS with a surprise attack, we have a good chance to score some big early victories, secure more (if not all) of our continent, and leverage that into a Domination win.
2) KISS isn't expecting this, so unlike TNT/Doughnuts land, our continent isn't all geared up for war.
Cons:
1) KISS may be thinking the same thing I've written above – they may hit us first!
2) We could be starting a long, bloody, winnerless war – inviting conquest from the other continent, and handing victory to TNT or Doughnuts.
3) We destroy our reputation and lose our best trading partner.
4) Greeks suck (compared to Persia, Celts, and Iroq) for a military win.

Conclusion
All this looks pretty grim to me – I'm just not seeing a good way out. So someone please tell me where I went wrong, and what our Best strategy is to win!!
(our only other option is to keep playing reactionary, hope all the other teams blow it big time, and we swoop in at the last moment and snatch victory however it becomes convenient).

I'll post more on our settlement strategy later when I get more time.
In the meantime – feel free to comment in advance of the big meeting if you'd like!

Chamnix

Oct 19, 2005, 12:48 PM

Maybe we will end up with a “Grand Strategy Thread” instead of a Grand Strategy chat. Anyway, it certainly doesn’t hurt to get our thoughts out early.

Keeping to winning conditions for now… this is an area I feel very weak on due to the fact that I have never played a multiplayer game before. Running through the possibilities:

I agree with General_W that Cultural 100K is realistically impossible.

I don’t share General_W’s pessimism about the potential finish date for Cultural 20K – we are only on Turn 50, and the first 50 turns are not that productive for a 20K city anyway. Considering that we now have developed terrain, enough workers to add to a 20K city if we chose, and all wonders still available, I think that an early 20K date is possible if other players let us. Unfortunately, I think playing for 20K relies on the goodwill of our neighbors too much. Everyone will know we are going for 20K, and at some point, someone (or everyone) will try to raze our 20K city, and I am not at all confident that we could prevent that from happening if we are devoting our resources to building culture in our best city instead of setters and military. In short, I don’t think 20K is reasonable unless we get a couple early SGLs to help us.

If we are going for Conquest/Domination, we need to think about when to attack (knights? cavalry? tanks? bombers?), and what order we plan to attack in. It seems like KISS’ plan is to have us and them take over the other continent first. It seems like thanks to our cooperation and their early warfare, we will get ahead of the other continent. We could split up the other continent, then turn on KISS if we want. Or, we could agree with KISS to attack the other continent, wait until their troops are deployed over there, then backstab them. I don’t know how “honorable” our team is – will we keep our word, or will we break our word at a time when it could give us a game-breaking advantage? I think if we are planning on keeping our word throughout, then Conquest/Domination is going to be very difficult with respect to KISS – giving an opponent 10 turns warning is tough.

I think our best bet is Spaceship. If we trade techs to stay even with KISS early, and split up the other continent during the Middle Ages (with cavalry?), then both of us should have no trouble maintaining 4 turn research throughout the rest of the game, but our free Modern Age tech should enable us to build a spaceship 4 turns before them. Of course, once they realize that, then they will certainly attack us, and we will have a massive late Industrial/early Modern war, but we may be able to complete the ship before either team can reach domination.

Those are the opinions of how to win a multiplayer game from someone who has never won one…

General_W

Oct 19, 2005, 03:22 PM

Good points Chamnix.

Re: Spaceship vs. 20K

It seems like we're basically facing a trade-off in what kind of a war we want to fight.

Spaceship War
Victory Method: Spaceship win
Enemy: KISS (who will certainly attack us as soon as it is down to the two of us)
Objective: Prevent a KISS domination win long enough to complete a spaceship.

KISS won't wait to "realize we can beat them to the spaceship" before they attack. They'll hit us as soon as TNT and Doughnuts are polished off.
We'll be facing KISS on two continents by this point, and it's very likely they will control more (% wise) than we do on both continents. They will have the luxury of striking wherever we are weakest (they'll only be interested in getting those last few percentages of land) and will basically be on a technological parity with us. They will have more cities, more units, and will almost certainly get to the necessary % of land mass – only question is, can we finish a spaceship before they get there. Seems pretty grim to me.

20K War
Victory Method: 20K culture in Athens
Enemy: Everyone
Objective: Hang on to the city of Athens till it reaches 20K

Because our defense objective is so much smaller, defense becomes much more simple. Of course a determined 3 prong assault can crack any defense– but if we play our cards right, bribe the right people, etc – I think this may have a higher chance of succeeding than trying to hold off a KISS Industrial Age domination win.

Try this theory on for size:
We could play nice to everyone and do everything we can to make sure all the other teams stay alive and at war for as long as possible.
Of course they'll see our win coming – they will probably be able to calculate down to the very turn we'll win – which works to our advantage!! Hopefully we'll be laughed at for trying a 20K win, and no one will worry about us till we're about 20-30 turns from victory.
TNT and Doughnuts (and maybe even KISS) will try to sneak fleets down for a direct assault on Athens.
But here's our trick - by lining our southern coast with cheap units (only about 25-30 would be needed for total coverage) we can prevent any units from landing (pre marines). Since they'll try to stay out of our LOS, they probably won't see our wall of units until they sail up next to Athens and it's too late. As they turn East or West to sail for somewhere they can land – our naval units (left in cities till this point) can come out and try to sink as much of their force as possible.

Therefore – we force any invasion to come from the North. We could bunker in along that mountain hill range in the near north, and basically turtle in. Since we can focus our defense on a 17 square range (East coast to West coast) with lots of Mts and Hills, we should be able to mount a pretty serious defense and buy even more time. Hopefully our enemies will leave us alone long enough and underestimate our defense enough that we can win.

(If we don't win before the enemy has marines – we pull those 30 cheap beach guarding units into Athens and fan the navy around Athens to do as much defense as possible.)

There's a lot that could go wrong with this plan - but my gut instinct is that we have a better chance of holding off the last min assault on our mainland than we do of holding off a huge KISS enemy looking for a Domination win.

What do you think?

P.S. I don't really like this plan either – I'm just not seeing any better options. Please convince me that there's something better we can do!!

Chamnix

Oct 19, 2005, 04:45 PM

First, I have to say I had a couple more thoughts about our potential spaceship win (on the golf course of all places - should this be in the "1000 reasons" thread?). It is not as simple as I thought with our free tech giving us the advantage. There is the Theory of Evolution to contend with, but even regardless of who gets that, the fact is that KISS (or whoever is chasing the other) will have plenty of opportunities to steal techs from the leader eliminating the 4-turn advantage. So I think it would come down to us winning only because we go before KISS if we both built a spaceship.

Back to the discussion... let's turn this around - how is KISS planning to win? You sound convinced that KISS is planning a domination win with us as their last target, and you seem equally convinced that they will win that battle. I'm not sure either of those assumptions will hold. I don't know what KISS is planning, but if we assume it comes down to a fight between us, I don't take our defeat for granted. KISS will grab more land than us in the expansion phase. If we fight well and smart, we should be able to grab as much land as them from the other continent.

In our final war, don't underestimate the power of the commercial trait. They may have more towns, but most will be useless. Our core towns and especially our second ring towns will be more productive than theirs thanks to reduced corruption. We should be able to produce more military than they can, so if we can keep losses even, we should be able to more than hold our own.

There is the danger that they will use their religious trait to switch to communism and fight a war of attrition. Maybe we should make sure our war comes before Communism? Still just thinking "aloud"...

General_W

Oct 19, 2005, 05:15 PM

You're right… I am assuming they plan to win via domination. The original KISS
Proposal was written to last "until MIA and KISS are the only two remaining teams in the game." Which I took to mean "until everyone else is dead and we turn on eachother."

The proposed 1 + 1 = 3 treaty for MIA and K.I.S.S.

The teams could agree to:
- be allied until MIA and K.I.S.S are the only two remaining teams in the game, and to act in cooperation and unison to ensure that they will become the only two remaining teams in the game.
- share all technologies until M.I.A. and K.I.S.S are the only two remaining teams in the game.
- share luxuries (when possible, due to extra sources) until MIA and K.I.S.S are the only two remaining teams in the game.
- share strategic resources, if needed, (when possible, due to extra sources) until M.I.A. and K.I.S.S are the only two remaining teams in the game.
- give a 10-turn notification before ending the alliance (only possible if M.I.A.and K.I.S.S are the only two remaining teams in the game).
- consult and agree with the other party in the alliance on any deals and diplomacy with the other teams, before meeting with other teams and signing agreements with said other teams.
- grant first strike on end-of-deal turn given to party undergoing end of deal (only possible if M.I.A. and K.I.S.S are the only two remaining teams in the game).

Now – it IS very possible that I'm wrong. But what you're describing from your Golf Game sounds very much like a Domination strategy – not a spaceship strategy! (not that it's bad!)
Do you think KISS may seriously be considering a Spaceship win?

Re: Communism – I don't see how we get rid of TNT and Doughnuts before the advent of Communism. With our 2 teams working together on tech – we'll rocket through the Middle Ages – and Communism is only 2 techs into the Industrial era - KISS will get it quickly if they want it.

Of course – if the Middle ages go by too quickly – that hurts our chances of getting a 20K win before Bombers/Marines/Tanks make any defense hopeless.

If we're thinking about war latter anyway – it may be worth thinking about a surprise Middle Ages attack as soon as we get Knights? (our hoplites will still provide effective defense in the MA and their Pikemen will eventually lose to our knights and MedInf) But of course, this risks making us the war torn continent that is easy picking for TNT, Doughnuts, or God-forbid, a TNT/Doughnut alliance.

Sigh – I know I sound like I'm arguing against everything. I don't mean to be down on everything… hopefully all my negativity will spur us to find an awesome solution.

peter grimes

Oct 19, 2005, 05:18 PM

Great reading here. I'm glad we're seriously talking about all this. In hindsight we should have had this Meeting a bit earlier That makes no sense. We are doing it at the earliest possible productive moment. Everyone is about to become Met. Perfect time.

I like the optimism regarding the power of our Commercial trait and the strength of defense we'd be able to bring to bear against KISS should they want to snatch land from our homeland.

There is another aspect to the assumption of a KISS (or TNT of DNUT) domination victory. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Domination requires a civ to hold 67% of the land area and pop, no? That means that should we want to go for, Spaceship, for example, we need to maintain something over 34% of land and pop. That is much more doable that us grabbing all 2/3.

General_W

Oct 19, 2005, 06:14 PM

Hmm – I’ve had some more time to think about your points Chamnix (and very good re-enforcement Peter!)

And I’m starting to feel my dark cloud of pessimism lift a little.

If we can cement our deal with KISS, make sure we get 35% of the land mass – then we may be able to do very well indeed. (after we get map making, maybe we could try to establish a beachhead on the other continent asap?)

Perhaps we could even try to draw a border with KISS on our continent. Give them 65% of our continent – they’ll probably get that much anyway, and If they agree to it, it frees us to do less of a panic settlement, and go to work on getting some land overseas.

Yes, yes… a spaceship win may work quite nicely!
(IF we can get the necessary amount of land)

Which is a natural segue into what our settlement strategy should look like
(which I will post my thoughts on later.)

Chamnix

Oct 19, 2005, 08:48 PM

To General_W's credit, he has tried to get us to discuss this more thoroughly earlier, but the conversation kept dying out without a conclusion (possibly because there just wasn't enough information available at the time).

Regarding the KISS 1+1=3 proposal, I read that as saying even after we were the only 2 civs left, we still couldn't fight each other without giving 10 turns notice and letting the other side get the first attack. I remember when we were discussing that proposal, we were trying to figure out how we would win if we accepted it (and for that matter, how KISS was planning on winning), and I don't think we ever had a satisfactory answer. In chats with KISS they keep seeming to say things like "we will have to find some other race to run" which makes it sound like they don't ever plan to fight us, but they could be lying. Bottom line - I really have no idea what KISS is planning.

I'm sure you are right about the tech pace - with under 60% water and only 4 civs to take up all the land, very good teams, and great starting locations, we will rocket through the tech tree. If we want to prevent KISS from reaching communism, we would have to attack them before going after the other continent.

...which brings me back to an earlier question - what is our word worth? Right now, we have a deal with KISS that promises we will not attack them without 10-turn warning. Do we mean that? Are we playing "honorably" or will we break our word if we see a game-breaking opportunity? If we are going to keep our word, then it will be very difficult to win by domination/conquest or to ever attack KISS.

Regarding establishing a beachhead, it is a mixed strategy. On the one hand, it certainly makes an attack easier. On the other hand, it is a major pain to defend until we are ready to attack. I think overall it would be a good thing to have - even if we lost it, the only real damage done would be to push us toward war weariness sooner since it would never actually be a productive town anyway, and the ability to spring a quick attack outweighs that I think.

I'm not sure how much of a priority we can afford to make it early, but I will wait patiently until the chair officially starts the next topic before saying too much about that.

Meleager

Oct 19, 2005, 08:59 PM

I dont suppose one of the experienced PBEMers can tell us the probability of the game lasting long enough for a spaceship victory. It is a good idea but its a long time away and everyone has AA UUs.

peter grimes

Oct 20, 2005, 06:21 AM

I'm still fussy on who a 200k win is unrealistic. In my home games I actually turn culture win off, because I seem to 'fall in' to that win withough trying. Of course, I have only recently moved up to Regent, and haven't played a game through yet.

Rereading the 1+1=3 it indeed seems as if KISS wanted to ensure that they wouldn't have to worry about us attacking them. (Would they have trusted us?)

I kind of like the 20K victory as well. The gamble with that one is that we have to get the 20k before Marines show up, and, if Chamnix is right about all of us whipping through the tech tree, that's a long gamble.

No matter which Victory we shoot for, we MUST maintain 35% (hopefully more) terrain. This will preclude anyone from a Domination, forcing them into a Victory race of our choosing.

It may turn out to be to our benefit to ally with TNT or DNUT later on, to support them financially against an expanding KISS. That way, the other team's land + our land will equal more than 35%.

EDIT:
Thanks for the kind words. My "award" is really more a testament to my picking a victory condition that very few others went for than a demonstration of ability, but I am very happy to get it regardless.

So..... we're also trying to guess the win strategy no one else is shooting for, with the added limitation of attaining Victory before anyone else reaches their goal.

Chamnix

Oct 20, 2005, 08:48 AM

It is interesting that you “fall into” 100K wins. I think that means it’s probably time to move up a level…;)

In 100K, each town can only produce a limited amount of culture, so reaching 100K quickly means you need a lot of towns. One way of doing this is to get the majority of land, but if we can do that, then we can probably win by any victory condition we want. The other option is to cram as many towns as possible in a limited space, but once you start mass producing culture, your economy crashes – you have a lot of corrupt towns producing only 1 gpt, but costing many gpt in maintenance for their culture buildings. You start needing to run close to 100% tax, and you fall way behind in tech so you are eventually easy pickings for someone’s advanced weaponry.

Incidentally, with a 20K game marines are not the problem – marines are only 12 attack, and by the time anyone has marines, we should have infantry (fortified), and Athens is on a hill and will be a metropolis. It would take an awful lot of marines to break that kind of defense. Bombers, however, are game breakers. They can attack from too far away and can kill (and destroy culture) with no risk. If any team gets Flight significantly before everyone else, it’s all over.

It seems with a 20K attempt, our gamble is that teams will leave us alone until it’s too late for them. I think that if we are the weakest team (which we probably will be if we are building all that culture), then someone will take our land sooner just out of opportunism (and to get control of the wonders we built) instead of waiting until we are a threat to win.

General_W

Oct 20, 2005, 01:12 PM

I don't suppose one of the experienced PBEMers can tell us the probability of the game lasting long enough for a spaceship victory.

It seems like I may be one of the more experienced PBEM players here (I've played about 15 games, and won 14 of them). Unfortunately, the people I play against are not as good as me (obviously) and I'm not nearly as good as many of the people playing this game. (I've learned so much from this team!! And we're still falling behind the other teams! LoL) So my experiences are a little suspect.

In my experiences, the Game pretty much ends in bloodshed in the Ancient Age or in the Medieval Era. If it lasts past the Medieval era, then it pretty much goes down to a Space Race victory. Seems like with Infantry and Railroads, attacking just becomes a nightmare – it's very heavily in favor of a defender that knows what they are doing. By the time you get bombers – yes they are game breaking – but tech is usually happening every 4 turns, and it just becomes less tedious to build a spaceship and win than it is to bomb the poop out of your enemy.

Will any of that apply with 4 highly competent and skilled teams? Who knows?!?

I'm still fussy on why a 100k win is unrealistic.

Trust me! Not only do you need 100K – you also need more than 2x what the next opponent has culture wise. Our enemies could easily prevent us from getting this with even a modest schedule of building cultural buildings. Or just kick the crap out of a couple high culture cities.

It seems with a 20K attempt, our gamble is that teams will leave us alone until it’s too late for them. I think that if we are the weakest team (which we probably will be if we are building all that culture), then someone will take our land sooner just out of opportunism (and to get control of the wonders we built) instead of waiting until we are a threat to win.

This is true – unless they are too busy fighting each other, and we stay of some value to them – by giving tech or gold or something. Don't know if it will be possible to avoid becoming too juicy of a target to pass up though.

No matter which Victory we shoot for, we MUST maintain 35% (hopefully more) terrain.

I think we can all agree on this. If not us with a full 35% - we need an alliance where both sides aim for, say 20-25% of the map?

-------------------------------------------------------

Ok – this discussion on Victory method has been really good.
I'd say we've pretty much got it narrowed down to 20K vs. Space Race.
I really look forward to hearing the results of the weekend chat.

In the meantime, I'd like to kick start some advance discussion on Settlement strategy. Who knows, maybe this will help us get some new ideas re: victory method.

General_W

Oct 20, 2005, 01:14 PM

Part 2
On Settlement Strategy

I'd say we've got 4 goals here that we need to accomplish. Unfortunately, they are in tension with each other, so we'll need to prioritize them, and look at some creative ways we can get as many done as possible.

Here are the top 4 Settlement Goals that I see:

Goal 1: Control 4 Luxury Resources

Goal 2: Control Everything South of the Jungle

Goal 3: Control at least some of the Jungle

Goal 4: Have at least 2 settler factories up and running by turn 60

These aren't necessarily in order of importance – and please feel free to point out something obvious I've missed.
I'd like to "briefly" address each one.

Goal 1: Control 4 Luxury Resources

Here's a map with every Lux recourse we can see highlighted by a red circle:
E = Elephant/Ivory
S = Spices
I = Incense
W = Wine
F = Furs
http://img439.imageshack.us/img439/6996/miacontinentsmall4fx.th.jpg (http://img439.imageshack.us/my.php?image=miacontinentsmall4fx.jpg)

Here's how it breaks down: we have lots of Ivory. We can easily get and secure Furs. Unless KISS is really evil, we should be able to secure that Incense on the jungle border. (IF KISS takes this – I'd personally consider that an act of war).

There's 2 places where this gets interesting.

Spices (S):
I'm willing to wager that KISS already dropped a city on one Spice location. There's one still up for grabs, and there's no way of knowing if KISS will get there before we do. They are closer to it than we are, and already have a settler on the move that MAY be heading for that location. If KISS gets a monopoly on Spices, we are in a noticeably weaker position.

Ivory (E):
We've got plenty of this – but if we want to keep our monopoly, we'd better secure that Ivory that's up near KISS – if they get even one, we will have lost any leverage to try and trade with them for Wine or Spices. Is it worth the effort to secure all the ivory? KISS can trade with TNT for it (the other island appears to be an exact mirror of ours) so we won't be able to be TOO extortionist. But it would be nice to have SOME leverage at least.

Bottom Line: We should be able to relatively easily get 3 Luxury items (Ivory, Furs, Incense), But if we want 4 we need to hustle, and if we want a continental monopoly on Ivory – we need to hustle even more.

Goal 2: Control Everything South of the Jungle

If we cede the Jungle AND land south of that – we will be in a very BAD position.

Maybe we could sign a deal with KISS to not settle beyond the jungle of either side (and make it clear that includes no trickery with the incense). Of course, that deal just touches off a land race for the Jungle – but it looks like KISS is already running that race – and we're just not aware of it yet!

This seems common sense – but grabbing at least one of our Ivory's MUST have at least crossed KISSes mind – and they may be planning just such a stunt. If we were in the superior settler position – I can see myself calling for grabbing one of KISSes wines.

Whether through Diplomacy or Aggressive settlement – we must make sure we don't lose land south of the Jungle.

Goal 3: Control at least some of the Jungle

I fully expect rubber (and maybe even oil) to only show up in that jungle area! If the game goes that long, we'll be in big doo-doo without either one.

Spices are also there in the Jungle – and KISS will get a total monopoly on them if we don't get there fast. (If that settler we see is on his way to the other spice patch, it's already too late – there's nothing really great that looks worth settling in the immediate area of the settler, so I fear he very well may be headed South to the Jungle.)

Creative option – Give up on the jungle to KISS – and try to get some jungle on the other continent. TNT and Doughnuts probably have better things to do that worry about settling that area. Risky – but maybe more doable than beating KISS?

Goal 4: Have at least 2 settler factories up and running by turn 60

I think we're pretty much here already. Go team!
Maybe we can consider getting an extra settler or two from our other cities also?

Ok – hopefully that launches some good conversation! Looking forward to reading what all of you have to say!

Chamnix

Oct 20, 2005, 08:42 PM

I agree with almost everything you said. Just to add a couple things:

Spices (S):
I'm willing to wager that KISS already dropped a city on one Spice location. There's one still up for grabs, and there's no way of knowing if KISS will get there before we do. They are closer to it than we are, and already have a settler on the move that MAY be heading for that location. If KISS gets a monopoly on Spices, we are in a noticeably weaker position.

KISS doubtless dropped a city on some luxury, but we don't know what it is *cough cough*. If they have dyes or silks for example, then it becomes critical for us to get spices because there may only be one of each. If they got spices, then hopefully they are not in any hurry to get the other.

I don't think Bernie is heading to the spices. He probably came from the west, so if he is heading for spices he already went too far east. I think he is probably just going along the river or maybe to the iron. Of course, they could have another settler heading to spices, but it is also possible they don't even know the spices are there yet. Regardless, I think our next settler (after the red dot one) will head that way, and we will hope for the best.

If we want, we can build a "culture wall" across the island with about 6-7 towns (CxxxC)depending on where we build it. I'm not sure how KISS would take that - it would probably depend on how far north we built it. If we went to the northern edge of the jungle, they would (and should) consider it aggressive. If we went along the southern edge, hopefully they would realize that it was just defining a minimum territory for us.

The major downside is we will be building essentially useless cities short-term. We will be able to fill in the better locations later, but that is a lot of turns of potential production we will waste. Of course, KISS could also sail around the wall to place southern cities, but I like to think they wouldn't go that far unless we pushed our wall too far north.

I'm really not sure what the best answer is.

fe3333au

Oct 20, 2005, 10:45 PM

KISS recently told me that they only have wine connected.

I'm in favour of Resourse and Goody securing and then fill in ... even tempted to settle a bridgehead on other continent ... securing a wine as we do so ...

Interesting International Dynamics Changed
I there is a proposal to discuss in Emp's thread Here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=3188243#post3188243)

Nuts have tried to double dip and are now on the outer ... if we trade with them ... we all get the techs ... but Nut's don't get Republic :evil: ... I relly like this.

peter grimes

Oct 21, 2005, 09:06 AM

This is probably the biggest wildcard of our Grand Strategy: The one aspect we have the least control over, the least intelligence of, and possibly the least benefit from.

Diplomatic Facts:

1. TNT are at war with DNUT.

2. Provo has consistently acted in a manner that irked many people in the UN

3. Not all of TNT are 100% supportive of Provo's behavoir.

4. TNT have relations (of a sort) with KISS and DNUTS.

5. TNT can trade with KISS, but not with DNUTS.

Strategic Facts:

1. TNT have access to the resource for their UU.

2. TNT have Masonry and Iron Working, (and are likely to go for Monarchy)

3. TNT have disbanded (thus repositioning) their capital

4. TNT have access to Ivory (our only short-term surplus luxury)

5. TNT have expressed a desire to 'go-it-alone', though how resolved they are is open to question.

6. TNT are quite clearly on a War Footing, not Expansion, as evidence from VP's and city population numbers show.

7. TNT are enabled for an Ancient Age Golden Age
.

What do we want from TNT?

1. We want TNT to remain at war with Dnuts, sapping the strength of both.

A war of attrition will allow the first civ on our continent with MapMaking to try a little land grab over there. However, that land-grab will take a tremendous amount of resources to pull off successfully, due to the presence of dozens of angry military units. This settlement has to be done without them seeing, if possible.

2. We want TNT to be a thorn in KISS's side.

TNT have already been dismissive of KISS, if they are to be believed. That's a good start for us. If TNT and KISS ally, we'll be forced to ally with DNUTS. Also, if TNT and KISS ally, we'll be in a very precarious military position. However, I am heartened by Whomp's comment in the chat about DNUTS double-dipping: "bawhomp: i hate breaking a deal."

3. We want TNT to remain in the dark about our 1+1=3 with KISS.

Things will get much more complicated after all 4 teams can view eachother's available tech's and the associated beaker costs. I am new to multiplayer, and the associated mechanics and calculus, so I hope some of the more experienced players among us can help us stay clear of a blunder that will tip our KISSMIA hand prematurely.

Those are my first thoughts on TNT. Don't know if there are any grand conclusions here, but it's at least a summary and a jumping-off point. I hope others add to it, and respond to the points above!

General_W

Oct 21, 2005, 03:28 PM

Good Stuff Peter - I agree with all of this.

I'd like to further comment on this part:
2. We want TNT to be a thorn in KISS's side.
I think this is of HUGE importance for our long-term success.

I think we must do everything we can to avoid having a 3 on 1 war with TNT. Since KISS is physically closer to TNT, they stand to benefit much more from this war (capturing more cities and more land than we will be able too).

I think there are 3 diplomatic scenarios that benefit us the most:

1) Isolation
KISS/MIA researches up the tree, and make few to no tech deals with the others. (Who hopefully stay at war, and fall further and further behind). Then, when the time is right, KISS/MIA invades and destroys the other land wholesale. KISS taking on TNT and MIA taking on D'nuts.

2) Doughnuts become the rouge state
This will be harder to achieve - mostly because TNT is practically BEGGING to be the rouge state. However – if we can convince KISS to go after the doughnuts first – then we gain the advantage in capturing the best cities and the most land. (We may be able to convince them that Doughnuts are weaker – and therefore a more appealing first target)

3) Peace in our time!
If we can play the diplomats and peacemakers, and keep everyone in the world reasonably strong – and all controlling about 25% of the map – then we are free to tech our way right into the spaceship win – we'll just need to hold off the final world war assault on us when it becomes clear we'll win.

No matter how you look at it – it is in our interest to see TNT not get wiped out.
(In my opinion)

fe3333au

Oct 21, 2005, 10:33 PM

I agree with what has been so suscinctly worded above ...

I have been involved with pbem where I have forged agreements only to be stabbed in the back ... any memories C-H :p ... but am by nature a trusting peacenik at heart ... I really believe that Whomp and therefore team KISS have passed every test regarding honour, and should therefore be taken true for their word ...

I am relishing this element of the game ... however I am also aware that others may not like having 'our' game be directed by outside influeneces ... Having to rely on the trust of others and second guessing agendas may be taking too much away from the enjoyment of playing the game as we feel.

Is this diplomatic element superseding our own gameplay?

I hope not ... and certainly for me it is not ... but we are a team and should decide on the importance of this new and exciting diplomatic element.

I am also after direction as to the extent we should 'share' with KISS, I have been very open and the time I held back, is when KISS gave Nuts are very good tech swap deal ... I try to consult but sometime i must act on feelings, which i have gleaned from reading the threads, i often feel uneasy about total openess ... i guess what Foreign department require is feedback from the team and this process even without a team linkup is very positive :thumbsup:

OK ... assuming we are agreed and diplomacy is very important ...

I think that since KISS have proven, above and beyond that their word is their bond, we should maintain the open nature of our talks ... sharing of most information is proving to be a bane to the other teams ... this is where KISSMIA has the advantage.

Nuts we should treat on a purely commercial transaction level ... and always try to get the better deal.

TNT we should at the very least try to get on speaking terms ... and perhaps try to trade military techs which will enhance their offensive potential to sustain the TNT/Nut War.

classical_hero

Oct 21, 2005, 10:52 PM

I have been involved with pbem where I have forged agreements only to be stabbed in the back ... any memories C-H :p ... but am by nature a trusting peacenik at heart ... I really believe that Whomp and therefore team KISS have passed every test regarding honour, and should therefore be taken true for their word ...
Technically I did not break any agreement because in game the agreement was breakable. I had been planing that for awhile before I even attacked you, but now All I need to do is kill one more of your kings and you will be dead from the game. :D I must say that the plan worked better than I first thought. One thing I was surprised about was the fact that you thought you could get berserks, I thought that you knew that berserks are the UU of the Scandinavian nations and Kievan Rus, the Knight is your UU along with the all the other "Christian" Nations. Soon there will be no more England in 3rd Crusade. That has been my first http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/smilies/backstab.gif and i am quite proud of it, for that game, because you basically were a dead weight and I realised that I had to get rid of you, since you were not playing a great game.

fe3333au

Oct 21, 2005, 11:14 PM

If it wasn't your b'day buddy boy :mad: ;) :D

peter grimes

Oct 22, 2005, 06:56 AM

Continuing the Diplomatic Analysis:

I think we must do everything we can to avoid having a 3 on 1 war with TNT. Since KISS is physically closer to TNT, they stand to benefit much more from this war (capturing more cities and more land than we will be able too).

Ah-HA! Conversely, MIA stand to gain much from a war that decimated Dnuts, as we are geographically closer to Dnuts, and KISS further away. Combined with point #2, this leads us to a Directive:

1. If given an opportunity, it is in MIA's interests that KISS and DNUTS engage in physical war on KISS' turf, or DNUT's turf. MIA should try to broker peace only insofar as peace will advance the goal of protecting MIA interests abroad.

As regards point #1
This seems to parallel the US/USSR proxy wars that flared up from the late 50's through the late 80's. This could be a very costly way to engage KISS. Tapping homeland resources and sending them across the sea, where they will be measured against the resources KISS can throw, sounds difficult. I love the architecture of that style, though: Two 'behemoths', not willing to engage eachother directly, using TNT and DNUTS as clients. However, by going that way, we may wind up not having enough resources (economically) to get the techs quick enough to build a spaceship.

The advantage of this tactic - it takes a lot of time. Time gives us techs quicker than any one else gets them.

As regards #3
I think this is not only the our strongest angle, but also could be the easiest. No drain on resources sent away from home (or at most a relatively small drain compared to the other options); we activate and leverage BOTH our traits. This is not only a smart way to look at TNT, but also a smart way to approach KISS. It is inherently non-aggressive (so they won't have anything to suspect), and we'll be able to cut small financial (non-tech) deals on the side, to keep TNT or DNUT active.

As regards the Quality of our Dimplomacy
The first term's diplomacy had nothing on which to judge it. Moving on.... The second term's diplomacy saw Contact with KISS and DNUTS in the same turn. There were problems. These problems, in hindsight, could have been handled better, and it's due to those improvements that we are having a profitable and smooth Third Term.

Things that work well: AIM whispers works very well when dealing with uncertain opponents (like TNT or DNUTS).

Things that don't work well: This game moves very fast. All people in all departments should have a strong idea of what actions and decisions are based on, so that when the turnplayer needs to know (for example) "Should I send the tech this turn?" there is more than one person to get the answer from.

Hope this is constructive!

classical_hero

Oct 22, 2005, 09:23 AM

Have we settled on four different times so we can vote on this poll?

peter grimes

Oct 24, 2005, 10:25 AM

I thought the poll aspect had been rendered useless since we were posting our individual availabilities. In any case, I think we should continue laying out ideas. We haven't really gone into the Settlement aspect of things yet.

So, just to start the conversation:

We only have one settler factory at the moment. We won't have another one up for 10? turns, and at that point, it still won't be as productive as Athens. I am really guessing blind at this, but I'll try and answer the question: What will our Settler production rate be?

Now until about turn 65: 1 settler/4 tursn = 3

after turn 65: 3 settlers/10 turns

This means that we can count on only about 10 settlers before we get Republic from KISS. I know much of this is guessing, but maybe someone could double check my numbers.

Chamnix

Oct 24, 2005, 11:28 AM

I don't have my latest spreadsheet here, but I think the plan is:

Athens: settlers turn 55, 58 (bonus 3-turn settler as we turn off warriors), 62, 66, 70, 74, 78...

EMP City: if we build 2 warriors first, then settlers turn 68, 72, 76, 80...
with no warriors then settlers turn 66, 71, 76, 80...

Athens will no longer produce warriors once EMP City is running so they will both be equally productive (4-turn settlers), but EMP City will be a little larger.

peter grimes

Oct 24, 2005, 12:32 PM

If your numbers are correct that's Good News indeed! We'll be getting a settler every two turns after turn 66. That's close enough to smell!

Therefore, here's the map of Settlement ideas from the beginning of Domestic's term 3. It should serve as a good spot to start talking:

http://img459.imageshack.us/img459/747/cityplacement37tp.th.jpg (http://img459.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cityplacement37tp.jpg)

I'll post an updated one once we get a good, recent screen shot to work from.

Chamnix

Oct 25, 2005, 08:04 AM

I haven’t seen anything that makes me want to alter dramatically the city locations (yellow dot has already been moved 1 SE, but everything else still looks OK). The question is really what order to we want to settle them in – start with the close and most productive sites to get our economy chugging at full capacity, or start with the furthest sites to make sure we get them and backfill.

I think we want to get the spices next because I am very concerned about losing them. After that, I think we split the difference – we settle moderate towns in the direction of the jungle but don’t go all the way there. For example, after spices, maybe white dot, then the black dots east and west of white dot, then incense and the northern iron hill, then the ivory by the goody hut. Essentially, we will still be expanding from the center out, but ignoring the far south and east to push north and west first.

peter grimes

Oct 25, 2005, 08:11 AM

What is the rationale behind ignoring the far south and east? Will that area suffer higher corruption? Ideally, we will have that area settled before DNUT boats show up with settlers (not that I think they'll be able to do that too soon..)

Chamnix

Oct 25, 2005, 09:04 AM

The rationale is simply that I think we will be able to get that area later. I think Donuts will settle their own continent first, and they have a war to deal with, so we should have our continent covered before they come across. Also, if they do put one or two towns on our continent, we can take them.

I am more concerned with blocking KISS' expansion from the north and west first. We know they are at peace and expanding rapidly. Plus, we cannot declare on them without breaking our word, so any areas claimed by them are off-limits to us.

General_W

Oct 25, 2005, 09:56 AM

I'd like to suggest an idea that's (just a little) more aggressive than what Chamnix is advocating.

A schedule more like this:

1) Military/Red Dot (Core)

2) Spices/Orange Dot (Land grab)

3) Mountains/White Dot (Medium range)

4) Incense/Yellow (Land Grab)

5) Fish/Blue Dot (Core)

6) Bananas/Green Dot (Land Grab)

7) HillTobacco/Brown (Medium)

8) IvoryFish/Grey Dot (Land Grab)

9) RiverFishIvory/White Dot (Core)

10) ForestSwamp/White Dot (Land Grab)

11) Furs/White Dot (Medium)

12) Iron Hills (Land Grab)

… then focus on backfilling.

I trust you see the pattern. My point isn't that we need a strict schedule – my point is that we need a plan to make sure we aggressively land grab (every other settler) but also balance that with getting some good cities in our Core and medium range center.

Here's the map matching my proposed order above:
http://img421.imageshack.us/img421/7382/proposedsettlementstrategy5kk.th.jpg (http://img421.imageshack.us/my.php?image=proposedsettlementstrategy5kk.jpg)

peter grimes

Oct 25, 2005, 10:29 AM

I like the premise. The only concern I would have is settler movement time: it'll be tough to balance when to let a settler plant, as opposed to having him wander off further.

Specifically, I'm looking at #3 and #4. I would almost rather send the third settler to position 4, just to make sure KISS doesn't get any crazy ideas. They'd be fools to try and settle south of the jungle, though, right?

Overall, I like the fact that we will be able to BOTH land grab as well as strengthen our core swiftly. It won't be as swift as KISS, but it's certainly faster than Dnuts and TNT.... unless they are running a fake war intended to lull KISSMIA into a false sense of security... paranoid...

General_W

Oct 25, 2005, 12:09 PM

Specifically, I'm looking at #3 and #4. I would almost rather send the third settler to position 4 I'd support reversing the order of #3 and #4 - to get that incense sooner.

unless they are running a fake war intended to lull KISSMIA into a false sense of security... paranoid... I share your paranoia - but since we know TNT captured a D'nut worker - it seems unlikely they've managed to become TOO friendly.

Chamnix

Oct 25, 2005, 02:10 PM

I agree with the concept also. We can quibble over details like the exact order and exact placement as the time comes up (for example, I would like #10 moved NW to the other side of the marsh), but as long as we agree on a general scheme (roughly alternating relatively close and landgrabbing) we should be good to go.

One thing that has some effect on city placement that we haven’t dealt with yet is the future location of our Palace and our Forbidden Palace. Whereas I like CxxC for our core and nearby rings, our hopelessly corrupt towns should be placed ICS (CxC). The reason is that most corrupt towns will never get above size 6 (aqueducts are painful to build 1 shield at a time, and happiness is a problem anyway since the luxury slider has almost no effect on corrupt towns). At least 1 (preferably more depending on available food) of the 6 will be a specialist, so they really don’t need any additional space. More towns is better because each one produces 1 gpt income, plus provides support for 1 unit (another 2 gpt), plus it can produce wealth once we have enough workers.

So, uncorrupt towns should be CxxC (or occasionally CxxxC) and corrupt towns should be CxC (probably build CxxxC at first for a culture wall, then fill in the spaces later). Without knowing where our Palace and FP will be, we don’t know which towns will be corrupt. I see 2 main possibilities:

1. Keep the Palace in Athens and build the Forbidden Palace as close to the center of our empire as we can. I think my white dot (GW’s white spot #3) might be a good FP location if the Palace is in Athens. It may be a little south of where we hope the center of our empire will be, but going much further away will make building the FP very slow going. It looks like a very productive site once we are out of despotism and irrigate all those grasslands so we can work the hills and mountains.

2. Place the Palace and Forbidden Palace to create 2 cores. We can’t get 2 true cores as we could in vanilla/PTW, but we can place them so that distance corruption is not too severe for any town. In this case, I think the Forbidden Palace could be built somewhere to the N/NE of my yellow dot (S/SE of GW’s #12), then the Palace jumped to maybe the black dot 3W of my white dot (around GW’s #7).

Advantages of #1:

We don’t have to abandon Athens and its granary and whatever other infrastructure we build there.

We can build infrastructure in our core towns now without worrying about making them corrupt later.

The terrain around Athens is very productive terrain – the terrain around the proposed new capital/Forbidden Palace is not as good for a core.

Advantages of #2:

Our palace will be more centrally placed, and we will have less corruption overall in our empire, and we may not have any hopelessly corrupt towns (except towns obtained after the peaceful expansion ends).

Disclaimers: I have never jumped a palace in C3C, mainly because I am usually too busy smashing AI by the early to mid Middle Ages so it never seemed necessary.

I am definitely not advocating a palace jump in any case until after the expansion phase is complete. We need our settler factories to have minimal corruption until then. However, I thought it was worth bringing up now to guide us in jungle settlement spacing, and also because it is worth building the FP as soon as possible, and we need to know where it is going, and that town should be settled soon.

I think I am in favor of keeping the Palace in Athens, but I could definitely be persuaded.

peter grimes

Oct 25, 2005, 03:30 PM

I have never moved my palace (intentionally) so I'm unfamiliar with how long it takes - both the mechanics of disbanding a city or constructing a palace from scratch. Therefore my instinct is to leave well enough alone, and only worry about the advantages of various Forbidden Palace locations.

But due to the nature of our opponents, I'm wondering if there is a way to quantify these choices so that we may extract the most advantage possible from our commercial trait. I'm wondering if there is a method for determining the economic output of the two different scenarios.

I will read up on the corruption articles, but I think this might require a more generalized approach. For example: Based on the dot map, and based on the two scenarios, is there a round number gpt and spt we can expect from each city?

Once we know the 'GDP' numbers of the two scenarios, it will be a much easier task to subtract out the inputs of FP's and Palace moves. It may also allow us to react flexibly to shifting game considerations.

Chamnix

Oct 25, 2005, 08:31 PM

It is definitely not worth building a palace from scratch - if we are going to accumulate that many shields, it would be much more useful to build a wonder. DaveMcW wrote an article on how to perform a palace jump (http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3/strategy/palace_jump.php). Essentially, you load your "target city" with military units and abandon your capital.

I think Civ Assist 2 has a function that will tell you what the production/income will be based on various Palace locations, but it will only tell us based on what we have so far, so it is not really useful for advance planning unless it is even more sophisticated than I think it is.

fe3333au

Oct 25, 2005, 09:38 PM

If we want to hide the wonder ... get city to build 'palace' and then jump to Wonder ... if we are beaten in the Wonder race, then we can save the accumulated shields and swap to Palace there.

So I guess I'm advocating that if we did go for Wonder construction have it built in a city that would be a good capital.

peter grimes

Oct 26, 2005, 08:43 PM

This is picking up a discussion that sprouted in 'The Next Few Turns', but may find more fertile soil here....

Regarding settling the next continent ... I would not dismiss outright the early construction of a military stronghold on the other continent ... one that is founded on a stragetic location, easily reinforcable and defendable ... reason to do it early is that at the moment both of our intercontinental neighbours are distracted by their current activities, giving us a time window where such a venture could be undertaken safely and unobserved ... By the time such a city was noticed it would be well developed and defended.

Good points, but Chamnix has observed:
Just remember that every settler sent overseas is one less settler on our own continent. I agree with popping their huts and exploring with warriors, but I?m not sure we should send settlers over there until our continent is close to full.

It's is true that any settler sent on a sea voyage is one less settler for the homeland, but that view collapses the dimension of Time. It is one fewer Settler at home in the short term than otherwise, but it is one major foothold abroad if we can keep it. Sending a settler abroad does not detract from the number of settlers at home. It only delays the founding of a core city for two or three turns.

On the other hand, (and this is the elephant in the room) there is an enormous risk that our outpost abroad will be attacked. This leads to three scenarios:

1. Our outpost is attacked, all units are lost: We have wasted shields building the lost units, and we have wasted Settler turns, and we have wasted galley turns.

2. Our outpost is ignored: Best possible scenario?.. Maybe not. If we could get a road to another civ, and establish a trade route, that would be better. But it's labor intensive. It would be much cheaper to help our partners build harbors to set up searoutes. If we are ignored, we can only hope to remain so for enough time to settle a strong tight area (unless TNT and DNUTs are driving eachother into the ground)

3. Our outpost is attacked, but our Hoplites defend valiantly: We enter a Golden Age. This to me is the best possible scenario. We can get a golden age after we've switched to Republic, leveraging an already powerful 20 turn era. If we are at peace with KISS, it will be difficult to get a golden age from a UU. But this way, someone else does the dirty work. If our outpost survives, we can then reinforce with more settlers and land-grab on the other continent.

I hope this leads to even more wild speculation than I have already written.

fe3333au

Oct 26, 2005, 09:51 PM

On the other hand, (and this is the elephant in the room)
:eek: Is this a problem for Domestic or Defence ministries ??? ... We must ensure that our ivory resource remain outside of meetings in future ... their trumpeting and hygene habits are quite disruptive :mad: ...
However ... and on a serious note ;) ... This has all the hallmarks of a joke instigated by those horrid RNGers ... I would like our President to start to take serious this Cult of Chance ... action must be taken ... we must remain loyal to the Kreator ... all praise RIK :worship:

3. Our outpost is attacked, but our Hoplites defend valiantly: We enter a Golden Age. This to me is the best possible scenario. We can get a golden age after we've switched to Republic, leveraging an already powerful 20 turn era. If we are at peace with KISS, it will be difficult to get a golden age from a UU. But this way, someone else does the dirty work. If our outpost survives, we can then reinforce with more settlers and land-grab on the other continent.

Good point hadn't thought of that :thumbsup: ... It certainly gives weight to the scenario of early real estate being built abroad :D ... I am only suggesting one or possibly two enterprises on foreign shores ... but they should have a sister port city nearby on our continent.

I hope this leads to even more wild speculation than I have already written.

Happy :lol:

Meleager

Oct 26, 2005, 10:50 PM

:eek: Is this a problem for Domestic or Defence ministries ??? ... We must ensure that our ivory resource remain outside of meetings in future ... their trumpeting and hygene habits are quite disruptive :mad: ...
However ... and on a serious note ;) ... This has all the hallmarks of a joke instigated by those horrid RNGers ... I would like our President to start to take serious this Cult of Chance ... action must be taken ... we must remain loyal to the Kreator ... all praise RIK :worship:
Can you not see that the RNG must be real. It randomly replaced your "C" with a "K" ;) (was that on purpose :mischief: )

Looks like you guys have done lots of good. Now i have to get some :coffee: and read it all. Or maybe I'll just read the summary at the end...

General_W

Oct 27, 2005, 02:59 PM

OK – sorry it’s been a while since I weighed in.
I’ve been following along, but haven’t had time to comment.
(Civ4 is sucking up quite a bit of my spare time… I’m loving it so far!)

Ok – so with that aside – here are my comments:

On Foreign Palace and Palace jump:
Foreign Palace should be built as soon as we can, in whatever our second best city happens to be.
In C3C – the foreign palace reduces distance corruption, true – but it also increases your Optimal City number (OCN). I’ve personally found that the benefits of getting the higher OCN right away – and having that much more of a productive core around the palace – is worth more than spending 50 years to get a FP in some far away city – where the surrounding cities will still be corrupt (due to Rank corruption).
Therefore – we stand to gain the most by getting it up ASAP (meaning, in a city that already has decent shield output)
Details From Alexman Here:
The Forbidden Palace acts as a second Palace for distance corruption calculations, but not for rank calculations. The Forbidden Palace itself will have low corruption, but if there are many cities closer to the Palace than the Forbidden Palace, the cities around the Forbidden Palace will have high rank corruption. However, even though it doesn't provide a new set of city ranks, the Forbidden Palace reduces rank corruption throughout the empire by increasing the optimal number of cities. Full article = http://civfanatics.com/civ3/strategy/corruption_c3c.php

I’ve NEVER jumped a palace – esp not in a multiplayer game. There’s always something better to do with those shields in my experience.

On Making a Landbase overseas:
I think this is a cool idea – but I’d only support it AFTER our culture wall is up. We need to secure everything South of the jungle – this is critical! IMHO.

Once the wall is up – I think it’d be worth the risk to deviate 1 settler from back filling to have a potentially HUGE advantage at land grabbing on the other continent.

Chamnix

Oct 27, 2005, 08:27 PM

I’ve NEVER jumped a palace – esp not in a multiplayer game. There’s always something better to do with those shields in my experience.

It is 0 shields to jump a palace. I completely agree that it is wasteful to build a palace by hand somewhere, but if the palace is poorly located, then it may make sense to abandon the current capital to have the palace relocated (I'm still not saying it necessarily makes sense this game, just saying that shields are not relevant).

I also agree that the Forbidden Palace should be built soon (which means we need to know where it goes), and should not be in a completely corrupt area. I don't think it should necessarily be in our second best city. That would mean building it in Heron which is the wrong direction, or possibly taking one of our settler/worker/military producers offline for 30+ turns. It should be in the general direction of expansion - that is why if the palace is remaining in Athens, I still think that my white dot or your white dot #3 is the best location. Although increasing the OCN ASAP is important, I don't think we should completely disregard the reduction in distance corruption caused by having the FP in a good location.

General_W

Oct 28, 2005, 01:18 PM

just saying that shields are not relevant. Ok – thanks for making that clear – I've never abandoned a city before either – so I guess I've just kinda missed that whole element of strategy.

I don't think it should necessarily be in our second best city. Yeah – I didn't really mean that either. Sorry for the confusion. What I was trying (poorly) to say is that it should be built in a city that (once it no longer has corruption) has the potential to BECOME our second best city… ie one with really high mineral and growth potential. The white dot would be an excellent location, and I would strongly support building the FP there.

fe3333au

Oct 31, 2005, 04:49 AM

What priority is getting embassies in other team's capitals ... we get a view of their capital for free if we build them :D

I'd like the first in TNT ... that would really irritate them :thumbsup:

classical_hero

Oct 31, 2005, 06:26 AM

I believe that we need to organise a team chat very soon to organise our response to a chat that IronGold, myself, Daghdha(sixpackholiday), and Skippyshutt(Admiral Kutzoc aka, AK47). I will open a thread about the chat because it is very important the possibilities of that chat.

fe3333au

Oct 31, 2005, 06:38 AM

I have opened the establish embassy window

>TNT ... 61gp
>Doughnuts ... 48 gp
>KISS ... 56 gp

This should be the order that we establish them ... only thing we can do with gold atm :)

Lets spend the money on TNT if we don't receive word soon ... then raise some cash and do Nuts ... then KISS.

I also see Ivory connected to TNT ... pity that the creator did it this way ... oh well praise RIK :worship:

peter grimes

Oct 31, 2005, 07:22 AM

we only have 68 gold currnently, and are running at -1 gpt. Should we hit up KISS to help with financing? I don't think they'd go for it: They can establish one themselves if they like.

But we could offer to sell the screenie to Dnuts, right? Or is that verboten?

Chamnix

Oct 31, 2005, 07:39 AM

I'm not sure embassies represent the best value for our money. What value does the information have short-term? If our attack is not going to happen soon, it might be better to wait until closer to the attack to get the most up-to-date information on buildings and improved terrain then.

Also, keep in mind that we will be running at -4 gpt within 10 turns (3 granaries and 1 barracks). If we spend our money on embassies, science will suffer sooner rather than later.

General_W

Oct 31, 2005, 01:48 PM

I agree - it'd be fun - but I don't think embassies are enough of a priority to justify the gold cost at this time.

General_W

Oct 31, 2005, 01:54 PM

Ok, this has stalled a little bit, so allow me to offer my summary of what has been decided (narrowed down) so far.

Victory Method:
Seems like consensus has built toward a Space Race Victory. (with 20K win being the second choice)

Main reasons: This victory is most suited to Greece's strengths, and is made easier by a peaceful and diplomatic playing style to which we are accustomed. It also avoids some of the risks of a Culture win – namely – there's too many ways for competent humans players to thwart a culture win.

Lingering Concerns: Can KISS beat us to a spaceship? Can someone get a domination win before we launch? Can we hold off a Apocalyptic attack by a Communist regime KISS hell bent on stopping us from going to the stars?

Settlement Strategy:
Plan is to alternate land grabbing (with a focus on getting luxury resources) with settling closer to home. Exact details to be worked out later – but after the culture wall securing everything south of the jungle is up – a bid will be made to establish a beachhead on TNT/D'nuts turf.

Main Reasons: Getting as many LUX as possible will be critical to running a successful republic and avoiding letting KISS walk away with the game. A beach-head on the other continent will give us a huge edge in war on the other land – if it ever comes down to that – and gives us a better chance and achieving a Golden Age before we leave the Medieval Era.

Lingering Concerns: The specter of being horribly out-expanded by KISS will always linger over our heads. Establishing the other beachhead is fraught with risks – hopefully the potential pay-off is worth the risk.

Diplomatic Strategy:
KISS: Tight Alliance. Total openness… when asked. Look to gain advantage by peaceful means when possible.

Doughnuts: Make sure they live long enough to be a continual thorn in the side of TNT. Limit their tech advancement as much as possible.

TNT: Make sure they stay alive long enough to cause problems for Doughnuts and KISS. Limit their tech advancement as much as possible.

All that look about right?

Comment where I've misrepresented anything – and – assuming I've done a fair job – comment on if you agree/disagree with where we're going as a team.

Maybe we could still have that team chat next weekend or something – but keep the conversation limited to – "are you onboard with this proposed strategy…"

Thoughts?

Meleager

Oct 31, 2005, 08:23 PM

In regard to KISS what are peoples thoughts about continuing the teaty into the next era? If we are getting more beakers then them then I would go it alone. Other wise I would keep the alliance going. Either way we have to pull ahead in techs some time.

fe3333au

Oct 31, 2005, 09:37 PM

Regarding KISS ... I see the total alliance lasting as long as the other teams are still a threat ... afterwards I see a non-agressive race to victory between us.

Meleager

Oct 31, 2005, 09:42 PM

Non-aggressive? I fully expect that KISS will attack us sooner or later in the game.

fe3333au

Nov 01, 2005, 12:31 AM

Is that what your dice are telling you :p

Meleager

Nov 01, 2005, 01:05 AM

http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/3395/yup5tv.gif

Seriously, we have to think about this...

peter grimes

Nov 01, 2005, 08:04 AM

Nonagression is great as a giude to victory, but not very good as a tool used to win the game.

In the game there are various tools we can use to win. Our military is one of the tools, as is our culture, and our diplomacy. If we decide, this far in advance, to throw out some of these tools we will assure ourselves of nothing but fewer options late in the game. Just look at TNT and you can see what happens when you throw out something so useful early in the game - Diplomacy - Good relations with your neighbors.

I advocate keeping this alliance beyond the current expiration date. It is a useful tool in that it is working well for both of us. With the rate of KISS' expansion we may not pull ahead in techs for a long time. Until then we both benefit.

Once the other teams are 'handled' it will be much clearer what our various Victory options are. If KISSMIA sees a non-military race to Victory as preferable, then so be it. But I wouldn't advocate a weak defense based on the promises of a continental neighbor who has competing interests!

fe3333au

Nov 01, 2005, 07:00 PM

Embassy will give the screenshot only to the team that establishes it ... so I am all for building them first.

>TNT
>Nuts
>KISS

First two will also be a great face slap :evil: ... third a friendly pinch ;)

Chamnix

Nov 01, 2005, 08:15 PM

Embassy will give the screenshot only to the team that establishes it ... so I am all for building them first.

Don't forget that once we build an embassy, then that rival can spend gold to investigate any of our known cities (including our capital) at any time, and we won't even know they did it. I don't think there really is that much of an advantage to being the first mover.

fe3333au

Nov 01, 2005, 08:37 PM

Don't know ... cheapest way to do it

KISS are eager to get embassies now that they suspect TNT has reached golden age ... see the chat I am in the process of editting

General_W

Nov 02, 2005, 11:14 AM

This discussion is taking place in several threads, but let me say again…

I WOULD like us to see be the ones who build the embassies with our rivals (for the intelligence) – but I don't think now is the best time to spend that gold (we need it to keep science higher longer) - I don't think we're in any danger of having our enemies found an embassy with us in the next 50 turns – and, most importantly, there's no really valuable intelligence we can gain right now. Much better to wait till the eve of war with them to found those embassies. IMO.

fe3333au

Nov 03, 2005, 11:10 PM

Do we still want to get a chat happening ???

If so post date and time ... :)

This is a good format as well though :D

General_W

Nov 04, 2005, 11:30 AM

I wouldn't mind seeing that chat happen - just to get as much "team approval" as possible for our proposed strategy.
(I'm assuming my summary was accurate - as no one has argued with it?)

Or – we could ditch the chat – and just use the poll as a team vote on whether or not they agree with the proposed Victory, Diplomatic, and Settlement strategies.

What do you think?

peter grimes

Nov 04, 2005, 12:45 PM

Okay, time for me to chime in on General W's Summary post (#62 above):

As to Victory
Shooting for SpaceRace is fine, as that doesn't change anything about our goals for the near- to mid-term. However, if we are holding a 20k as a backup, does that mean we need to get culture moving? I have no experience with 20k, therefore I have no idea how soon things need to get started in order to achieve 20k in a reasonable amount of time.

As to Settlement
I agree with everything General_W said, except the following: ...but after the culture wall securing everything south of the jungle is up – a bid will be made to establish a beachhead on TNT/D'nuts turf.
I don't think it is smart to necessarily wait for the culture wall is up before sending out a couple of boats for settlement on the other colony. I think we should view OC (other continent) settlement opportunistically: We will do it at some point, maybe before finishing the culture wall (my preference) or maybe after; but we will certainly send a settler or two when it makes the most sense based on a few factors:
1. Defendability - we can't afford to waste a settler (or two or three) and the accompanying workers. The sites and the timing must be well coordinated towards defense.
2. Profitability - We must clearly define and act towards the goals of OC settlement, be they military, commercial, psychological, or other.
3. Sustainability - the settlements must be able to grow to a large size fairly quickly, and then remain that way without much further input from the mainland. They need to be able to produce their own military after a time, and thus spur further settlement.

As to Diplomacy
The only thing I would add is the requirement that a possible domination victory by KISS be precluded. We need DNUTs and TNT for that. It is in the interests of MIA as well as KISSMIA that both TNT and DNUTs stay alive for as long as possible, and ideally up to the very last turn of the game.

As you all can see, OC Settlement is a priority for me. It will really open up the game for us, and if we can pull it off we stand to become the hands-down most powerful Civ in the game. But I also understand that many of you see developing our own land first more important. I will completely understand if the OC strategy gets left out of a final 'National Interests Strategy' that this thread seems to be developing.

Chamnix

Nov 05, 2005, 09:01 AM

However, if we are holding a 20k as a backup, does that mean we need to get culture moving?

I think 20K is our "second choice" rather than a backup if space fails. You are right that we would need to start building culture, but that would shut down our settler factory and limit us to only going for 20K. We really need to either go for 20K or pretty much forget about 20K (unless we get a run of SGLs), and I think the consensus was that 20K would be very difficult to complete before someone slaughtered us.

Re: settling on the other continent:

3. Sustainability - the settlements must be able to grow to a large size fairly quickly, and then remain that way without much further input from the mainland. They need to be able to produce their own military after a time, and thus spur further settlement.

This is the hard part. Based on what we've seen so far, the closest points on the other continent are about distance 16 from our capital. We would probably have to cash rush a harbor and a courthouse (500+ gold) before the town would be even reasonably productive.

rujikin

Nov 05, 2005, 09:24 AM

Im never here on the weekends

classical_hero

Nov 05, 2005, 09:26 AM

Im never here on the weekends
Well, then why are you posting now? ;) It is glad that you have posted here again.

rujikin

Nov 05, 2005, 09:30 AM

Well, then why are you posting now? ;) It is glad that you have posted here again.
Waiting for my ride

Chamnix

Nov 10, 2005, 12:59 PM

Looking through all the KISS towns and the latest settler, I’m starting to get a severe case of the General_W Pessimism Syndrome. The problem is KISS has been playing a different game than we have from the beginning. They have been going all-out to expand whereas we have been balancing priorities. They built a granary in their capital right away for a 4-turn settler factory; we started a 6-turn settler plus warrior factory and researched resource techs before pottery for a granary. They immediately started a second settler factory while we looked for a coastal site for exploration and for military factory locations.

Don’t misunderstand – I don’t think our decisions were necessarily bad. If KISS had ended up with TNT on their continent, their strategy could have been a disaster whereas ours would have enabled us to hold our own. The problem is that by promising them peace, we have played into their hands. They are outexpanding us by much more than the agricultural trait alone because they are building laughable military – they can’t even escort all their settlers with barbarians in the area, and it wouldn’t surprise me to learn that they do not have a barracks or any intention of building one soon. Our settler factories will kick into gear, but we have given them a massive head start.

I’m really starting to think that we have to fight for our continent first. I have no idea how to fight a war against humans, but one thing I think we should consider is to turn off research at some point without telling KISS. For example, after we complete Literature, we tell KISS we are researching Polytheism, but we actually research it at minimum. That way we have significant time to accumulate cash for a massive warrior->swords or chariots->horses upgrade before they get suspicious while their Treasury will probably be close to zero.

General_W

Nov 10, 2005, 04:03 PM

Excellent analysis Chamnix.
(read his post above before reading my comments)

I was starting to feel my pessimism pass – but now that we are seeing the KISS settler juggernaut first hand, I am again feeling militaristic.

If we don't stay equal with KISS in luxuries, our happy peaceful land will end up a stranglehold prison. With both of us running Republic – but KISS with 5 luxuries and us with only 3 - is a frightening scenario indeed. You can "kiss" our tech leadership goodbye – due to the amount of Lux spending we'll have to do to keep our cities happy compared to KISS. Bad Bad news.

This leaves 2 options –
1) Attack KISS and make them pay for grabbing more land than they can defend. We don't need to crush them. Just push them out of the Jungle (like they are currently trying to do to us).
A surprise attack will almost certainly make this a success, and our Hoplites should ensure we can survive all but the most determined counter-attack. I don't know if KISS would be willing to sue for peace after that or not. Even if they did agree to peace, they'd probably run straight to TNT for help, and we could be facing a 2v1 war once KISS had regrouped and TNT finished off the D'nuts.
(We could try to pre-empt this by making a deal with TNT right away. "we'll give you all the Ancient Era techs you don't have and be your best friends if you go to war with KISS after polishing off D'nuts." I think they may go for it. They're probably looking to invade our continent after killing D'nuts anyway. This depends a lot on their honor, but it may be worth a shot – of course KISS will be closer to TNT's core and we'll hopefully be stronger by that point – making KISS the more appealing first target anyway.)

2) We allow KISS to take total control of the Jungle and everything north of that. We instead go for Monarchy and aim for a massive invasion of the other continent. We benefit from attacking when both TNT and D'nuts are already at war and stretched thin while our homeland is reasonably secure. We can pick up wines and maybe secure the jungle resources that KISS is stealing from us on our home continent.
Downsides – it's hard to fight an extended overseas war (so much distance between productive core and battlefield) and Immortals are a lot scarier for Hoplites than Gallic Swordsmen are (imo). We also leave ourselves open for KISS to start thinking about stabbing us in the back while our armies are away. Something tells me KISS won't be so honorable and magnanimous when they aren't killing us through peaceful means.

Remember – KISS can afford to be generous, open, sharing, and kind. As long as we're peaceful – they are going to RUN AWAY with this game. Just look at the victory points!

Of course they are nice to us – they are killing us and we don't even know it!!

Ok – paranoid/aggressive rambling over. Any of you peaceniks what to speak up and say why we should play nice?

Kentharu

Nov 10, 2005, 04:38 PM

haven't i been saying for a month already... no one listens to me :(

peter grimes

Nov 10, 2005, 05:28 PM

@Ken: Maybe if you didn't duck back into a hiding place after saying something we would have been forced to listen to you - like Fe3333au with his ranting about navies and embassies ;)

Okay, gentlemen, you obviously have been thinking about some of this stuff for a bit longer than me. We should gently tell KISS that we are expecting to settle on the spices.

We don't want to provoke a row over this, but we should make sure that we get our FAIR share of the continent. We cannot engage in a race-to-the-jungle land grab, as they have much more settler output than we do. We must use their their weakness (no military) to our advantage, and minimize their use of our weakness (well-balanced, less focused first 50 turns).

Let's approach this in a friendly manner, in a chat (tonight if possible), and see where that gets us. If they are reasonable, they will allow us to settle a city on the spices. For that matter, they may let us settler there, and then try to Culture Swallow our city. That would take forever, though.

I'm not a fan of taking them on in a war at this point. Once we get Republic, and flesh out our core, and get out commerce rolling, then it might be worth it.

I do like the idea of probing TNT's aspirations on this continent. In asking them to assault KISS, we are risking TNT telling KISS of this. We could always say "No we didn't. They are lying." Or, more believably, we could say "Of course we asked them about that. How else are we to screen the other continent from seeing KISSMIA?"

peter grimes

Nov 10, 2005, 05:40 PM

Okay, a little more to add:

I just reread the settlement treaty proposal (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=128732) thread. It's pretty sobering to see what we were all thinking two months ago...

fe3333au

Nov 10, 2005, 06:52 PM

Chat with Whomp here ...

Here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=130444&page=5)

Cards on Table ... straight talk time

General_W

Nov 10, 2005, 07:46 PM

Make sure you read Fe's brilliant bit of diplomacy with whomp from KISS...

Here's the money part that may save us from war...
fe3333au: What the best scenario is ... share our lands ... and open slather in the other continent
bawhomp: agreed ... I may be able to persuade the team to move to incense which is close
fe3333au: We are seriously restricted with you taking that only source of lux considering you have the other ... I see bad things ... so do we leave it at that?
bawhomp: It's not worth the conflict ... I will discuss

:goodjob:

Now - we'll see if we need to kill them or not!

P.S. @ Ken - Keep speaking up! Our team runs the risk of peace loving ourselves right into the ground! We may not go to war here soon - but we should be ready!

Chamnix

Nov 15, 2005, 08:53 AM

I think we need some Great Library discussion. It has come up in a few different threads, but hopefully this is the best spot to consolidate the discussions (not clear if it is primarily Domestic, Foreign, or Military until we know what our plan is).

It is generally thought that TNT wants the Great Library. Although I don’t remember ever seeing them mention it, they are significantly behind in techs, and it makes sense for them to try for it to catch up.

Donuts have mentioned that they want the Great Library to prevent TNT from getting it.

The Great Library is incredibly powerful as whichever team gets it is the economic powerhouse until Education. Once in Republic, they can rush build units or infrastructure while others are spending on research.

I don’t really like the idea of building it ourselves. It is an enormous number of shields to invest in something that we are building primarily to prevent someone else from getting it. If we have 400 shields to spare, I would rather have the Pyramids.

We can try to control which rival builds it by giving Literature to one but not the other. I’m not really sure which one we would prefer – TNT is more backwards, so the Great Library is more useful to them, but I suspect Donuts will come out better from their war so I would hate to help them.

TNT is the aggressor, and Donuts are waiting for them. It will depend on terrain, but TNT’s stack of immortals could be attacked twice by Donut’s stack of Mounted Warriors (once just outside the cultural borders, once as they approach a city) before they ever get to use their attack of 4. TNT will take much heavier casualties. Unless TNT manages to break through and take a significant city on their first wave, I would expect Donuts counterattack to be very strong thanks to their reduced losses.

I don’t think it is realistic for us to think we can take the Great Library town just before or soon after it is built. It may be possible, but it will be heavily defended, and we will be at a severe disadvantage attacking off-continent.

I think our best bet is just to try to limit the damage. First, make sure there is a race to the Great Library. If neither is sure they will get it, then they both might continue researching while they are building it to hedge their bets, so there will be fewer free techs.

Second, minimize the number of Middle Ages techs granted. Either we or KISS will research straight to Education (who does it will depend on our free tech) while the other researches the bottom portion of the tree. We do not share techs until Education is discovered. Whoever discovers Education gives it to the other making the GL obsolete. The following turn, the bottom half researcher gives their techs. The GL will give Monotheism, Theology, and Education, but no other Middle Age techs.

I know I haven’t come up with a very good solution here, but I thought I’d at least get the discussion started…

peter grimes

Nov 15, 2005, 09:43 AM

Thanks for consolidating this. I was hoping we could talk about this, as I have never really been competitive at wonder building. If i'm building wonders, it's because everyone is so far behind I can afford the luxury. I usually try for the Sun Tzu's - Leonardo's double play, but I don't always pull it off.

I see now why people are thinking that Dnut's will be better off after the first wave of assault. This does impact my thinking about the Great Library.

I'm not sure how heavily defended the GL city will be, but I am completely inexperienced against human players. I tend to think that any defensive units will be focussed towards the frontier, facing their opponent's advancing armies. This may mean that valuable resources will be directed to defending the fringe, leaving the shoreline vulnerable. Neither will suspect the other will show up in boats, so that could open up an opportunity for KISSMIA. If the GL is built in a city other than the capital, we have a chance at disruption.

To pull this off, and keep KISSMIA's plans secret, I would propose that MIA attack the Dnut city, and KISS attack the TNT city. This gets each boat to the respective target quickest, and it is plausable that we are acting independently to safeguard the trading of techs.

With the GL costing 400 shields, and allowing for a generous prebuild, what is the range of turns TNT or DNUTs could take to complete the GL?

As regards the Race to Education
This is the only safe Plan B mentioned so far. There may be a way to leverage the research time: One team maxes out the science (whichever team gets to MA first), and the other team makes gifts of gold to cover luxury expenses and deficit spending: anything to keep the research at 100%. This means, of course, a careful calculation of whether or not to shift into Republic. I have read that marketplaces increase research rates more than libraries - is that also true for a scientific civ? There is a trade-off in how long the marketplace takes to build for being commercial and how long the library takes for being scientific. I'm not sure how it all works out.

Of course, there is also plan C: Drag out the Lit negotiations for 5 turns or so. If we get Lit first, we could hang on for a maximum deal, while weighing our strategic options. I certainly would not advocate agreeing to trade Lit before we actually have it. No promises leaves all our options open.

Chamnix

Nov 15, 2005, 10:48 AM

With the GL costing 400 shields, and allowing for a generous prebuild, what is the range of turns TNT or DNUTs could take to complete the GL?

It would depend on how badly they wanted it. A city like Athens could probably get 400 shields in about 32-33 turns without sacrificing too much. If they added workers, then they could probably drive it down to 24-25. If they are building it during a Golden Age, then you can probably knock 6-8 turns off each estimate.

Disclaimer: I did no calculations- those are purely guesses.

First, make sure there is a race to the Great Library. If neither is sure they will get it, then they both might continue researching while they are building it to hedge their bets, so there will be fewer free techs.

Playing devil's advocate for a moment (yes I am arguing with myself :crazyeye: ), there are plenty of wonders to cascade into, so forcing the "loser" to build another powerful wonder may not be great either.

General_W

Nov 16, 2005, 02:12 PM

Here's my 2 cents:

On Great Library:

Bottom line: We plan to invade and subdue (in not conquer) the other continent at some point anyway. If both sides want to put 400 shields into the GL, then that's 400 fewer shields of resistance we're going to face when we establish our beachhead!

I love the "beeline to education" strategy to limit the damage – but ultimately who cares? So what if they catch up on several techs. Their on-going research will still be pathetic. Their production will have been stunted. Their enemies will have a secure foothold on their continent… virtually ensuring that the first World War happens on their turf, not ours.

I say let 'em have it. :evil: We've got more important things to worry about – namely getting that strong foothold in their land while they are too busy to notice.

On Settlement Strategy:

Here's a new plan with a few revisions – what do you think?
http://img317.imageshack.us/img317/7919/proposedsettlementstrategynew8.th.jpg (http://img317.imageshack.us/my.php?image=proposedsettlementstrategynew8.jpg)

* Note: this new plan calls for settling on the D'nut furs!

D'nuts will surely be 100% hacked-off if we steal their furs. They won't want a two front war – and I say we gift them the extra furs out of good will/in the interest of peace. We could even try to convince them that we've gotten them an extra luxury without them having to build a city and a trade route themselves. "See! We did you a favor"!

Building on the D'nuts furs is great for a few reasons:
1) It's very close and easy for us to shuttle units over to that location. Only 2 moves for a Galley!
2) Extra luxuries are always nice
3) Hate it or not – Gifting Furs to D'nuts will make them dependant on us. Their only other option is war on two fronts – and trying to take out hoplite defended cities.

I've placed this as the location for our 8th settler – to give us time to get hoplites and swordsmen (for counter-attack) and galleys in place to go over in there in-force.

Comments?

Chamnix

Nov 16, 2005, 03:47 PM

Wow, there is a lot to digest there.

First, let me get my minor quibbles out of the way – I’m not sure, but I don’t think the spot 3 SE of #4 is on the river. If it’s not, then I think #4 should be moved 1 N so we can get a town between #1 and #3 on the river. Also, I think #5 is in KISS’ current territory. [/quibbling]

If both sides want to put 400 shields into the GL, then that's 400 fewer shields of resistance we're going to face when we establish our beachhead!

I agree with your conclusion regarding the Great Library, but I am not quite as blasé about its cost. Look at an expensive tech like Construction – it costs 600 beakers to research. While we spend 600 gold researching it, a team with the Great Library spends the same 600 gold buying 150 shields back. Of course, I am ignoring the multiplier effect of libraries (once we have some), but the techs only get more expensive in the Middle Ages. Regardless, I agree that letting the other continent build the GL is our best option because there really aren’t any other good choices.

Stealing the Donuts’ furs is definitely an interesting idea. The main reason I hesitate is that luxuries are so abundant on this map, and there are only 4 teams. Based on what we can see, KISS will have 2 sources of furs, and it seems safe to assume that TNT will also (we can see one already). “Extra luxuries are always nice” is definitely true in a normal game where there is always going to be someone to sell them to, but on this map the only reason to grab them is to deny them to Donuts, and that becomes moot if Donuts conquer TNT (or if TNT conquers Donuts for that matter).

It might make sense if KISS pilfers TNT’s furs at the same time. Then the Green Alliance will get to fight the intercontinental war with an extra luxury (assuming we both can hold it). We have to balance that against the fact that the furs are not on easily defended terrain. It would be better to have our beachhead on a hill if possible, but I don’t see any hills on the coast on our continent at least:hmm:.

Also remember that 8 settlers is only about 20 turns away. At that point, the most we can hope for is probably 2 hoplites. We could have swordsmen if we spend the gold to upgrade warriors, but we won’t have built any from scratch.

Once again, I babble a lot without reaching any conclusions. Most importantly, where should settler #1 go? I can definitely see an argument for moving to the furs next as you have suggested, but I can also see arguments for #2, #3, somewhere around #5, or somewhere north of #9 (aggressive land grab). I don’t know.

peter grimes

Nov 16, 2005, 03:47 PM

Comments:

The numbering scheme confused me at first, but I now understand. According to this proposal, the very next settler to be produced will go to the furs in the far east to settle city 1?! That's so very far away... But it would be nice for the next Dnut exploration vessel to see us there on the coast.

8 is a great idea, but I would prefer to see it settled NW-N from where you have it. This will also give us some wines, it's on a river, and still grabs furs. I would prefer to see this settled a bit earlier than eighth, but I agree it must have a couple hoplites and a sword. Even better to send some horsemen as well to do some interior exploration!

Nothing else jumps out at me, but I'm sure there are other opinions out there, so I'll be quiet now.

As for the

peter grimes

Nov 16, 2005, 04:01 PM

X-Post with Chamnix, so now i get to comment on his comments as well.

Once again, I babble a lot without reaching any conclusions. Most importantly, where should settler #1 go? I can definitely see an argument for moving to the furs next as you have suggested, but I can also see arguments for #2, #3, somewhere around #5, or somewhere north of #9 (aggressive land grab). I don’t know.

I don't think the aggressive land grab is worth it quite yet. The next settler should at the very least head towards 2, and then once there we can determine whether he should continue up to 5.

I'm assuming that pretty much any city we settle at this point will be very corrupt - only 1gpt and 1spt. If that is the case, I see the settlement strategy at this point as securing our culture wall.

As to 8, I say the earlier the better. It would also be great if settler #9 could be on a second boat, a couple turns behind #8 to head further up the coast to find a spot near their equatorial jungle.

General_W

Nov 16, 2005, 04:11 PM

Excellent points.

Let me address a couple things…

I’m not sure, but I don’t think the spot 3 SE of #4 is on the river. If it’s not, then I think #4 should be moved 1 N so we can get a town between #1 and #3 on the river.
This is a great point, and I'm cool with doing that.

Also, I think #5 is in KISS’ current territory.
I did that on purpose – hoping people would realize that I just meant #5 should be on the open dye – wherever it is! Won't know till we explore that area.

( RE:Grabbing Furs) but on this map the only reason to grab them is to deny them to Donuts…I disagree – building our beachhead city on a fur tile allows us to grow an extra citizen (useful for pop-rushing) without as high of an MP need. You're right – it won't matter much once we get a harbor – but until then, the extra happy face will be useful. We don't want to get knocked down to only 1 defender just to see the city go into revolt a few turns before finishing its harbor!

Also remember that 8 settlers is only about 20 turns away.
Wow! We must be awesome! :lol:
Well then – I'd advocate settling the other land with the first settler we can send with a sufficient escort. If we wait too long – we might lose that location to D'nuts and we'll end up with a much longer shipping distance to get re-enforcements to our city.

8 is a great idea, but I would prefer to see it settled NW-N from where you have it. This will also give us some wines, it's on a river, and still grabs furs.
I hear what you're saying – but your proposed location would require cultural growth before being able to reach wines OR furs. Getting uncorrupted shields will be a problem wherever we build, and we won't want to waste time (at least initially) with cultural buildings in our beachhead city until we get a harbor and city walls at least.
Much easier to just make our second beachhead city up by the wine, imo.

fe3333au

Nov 16, 2005, 05:16 PM

:clap: this is good plan Mister Pre... ummm ... Mister Defense Minister.

We are finally addressing intel received ... and agressively too :D

Sooner than later for settling Battle Isle, is what I'd add.

Regarding GL ... we could always approach the ignorant team and offer 'selective' tutorage for a fee :mischief: and also discuss with KISS a strategy which will disable the effect somewhat by slowing down certain tech trading.

Chamnix

Nov 16, 2005, 05:44 PM

@General_W - I'm hoping pop rushing won't be an option. By the time we are ready to settle there (settler + galley + escort), travel over there, and grow to size 2, I think we had better be in Republic. Since you mentioned pop though, it is probably better to move 1 east to the other fur, so we get some grass in our immediate radius.

General_W

Nov 16, 2005, 06:08 PM

@ Chamnix: That's a good idea - I had ruled it out earlier because it was too far away to get there in 2 moves with a Galley - but now that I look at it again, we could move the galley right next to it - then unload into the city (making it essentially 2 turn movement) is that right?

Re: Republic - are we sure we can afford to try this military operation while a Republic? I'm thinking we need a minimum of 2 hoplites and 1 sword - but it'd be nice to also have a horseman and a worker follow right behind. That means 2 galleys for a unified landing. (although, the first wave of hoplites could land on the mountain and walk to their destination while the galley goes back for the settler and swordsman?) Still, counting the settler, this will add between 5 and 8 units to our support cost. (Plus whatever we've got on settler escort and frontier defense duty - not to mention our legions of workers)
Without big cities back home to support it, will a Republic still be worth it?
That's an honest question!
You're the spreadsheet master - show me the ways!! :-)

P.S. - I see our alternative as waiting till we get a few bigger cities and the +3 support level from those cities before we switch to Republic. But I want to do what ever gives us the most gold/science.

Chamnix

Nov 16, 2005, 08:03 PM

Good point about the galley - I wasn't even thinking of that. We could unload into the city as you said, but I think it may be better to use the land unit movement on our side:

Start with units in city #1 and galley east of city 1.
Move units into galley and move galley 3 spaces.
Move galley 3 spaces into city #8 and unload units.

By doing it this way, our land units can move again the same turn they unload instead of waiting a turn which could be a big difference if we are under attack.

Regarding when to switch to Republic, that is another whole discussion unto itself. If we are only thinking in terms of gold/science, then I think you are right that Despotism will be better for a while still. However, all those flood plains and the cow are losing 1 fpt each in Despotism so Republic is worth a lot of food. Republic will also pick up a few shields thanks to reduced corruption. In particular, our Forbidden Palace will be very slow going in Despotism, but will speed up considerably once we can irrigate the grass and mine the hills.

Hopefully our Foreign Department can get KISS to give us a few turns warning when they are about to complete Republic so we can really look at the details of our empire then.

Meleager

Nov 17, 2005, 01:26 AM

Personally, I would like to see us settling more north before we go east and get the furs. This is for 3 reasons:
1. We don't have any land-grab problems to the east, we don't have to rush, we will get it at one point in time
2. Its on taudra, low growth, nasty spot. Its probobly better to get the better spots first
3. It could warn the d-nuts of our intentions??

Points for settling there now:
1. We get furs

We could found that city just before we actually go to the other continent. This gives them less time to prepare, and we can use that settler somewhere more important.

My thoughts are that we should send the settler to location #2. We still get a lux and its fairly nice land. There would be some corruption, but it will primarily be distance based (scince we don't have too many cities), so I don't tink it will be too bad.

So my reccommendations would be to move #1 back a bit (about 6 seems reasonable, our actuall "invasion" forces would be built at other cities), and also maybe swap #3 and #4 because #4 is on nicer ground.

peter grimes

Nov 17, 2005, 07:23 AM

Mel brings up a good point about settling location/settled city #4 sooner: Being close to that iron, the road to thecity will get us a second iron and horses. If I'm not mistaken, that horse is the best one for us to hook up quickly.

As to my thoughts about us building the GL in order to deny it to the other continent: You all have persuaded me. I really wasn't sure if it was an idea worth pursuing, but I now see that it would have been a severe waste of resources.

I especially liked General_W's comment that those 400 shields that are poured into the GL are 400 shields that aren't invested in defenders and attackers. That's pretty simple to understand.

As to our settlement strategy: I think we are all in agreement concerning the general direction and timing of things. The tile-by-tile details, and the order in which the settlers go to different locations, are being worked out here. As long as we don't send every settler north to the jungle, I'll be satisfied. We should continue to maintain somewhat of an alternating schedule between culture wall and near-settling - that way when we switch to republic we'll have a stronger economy.

General_W

Nov 17, 2005, 09:26 AM

Good comments Mel.

Ok - I'm about ready to re-draw this map.

Here are the changes I'm hearing advocated:
* Move #4 North by 1 square
* Move #8 East by 1 square
* Move #1 and #8 later into the build order.
* Switch the build order of #3 and #4

I like all these changes!
But before I re-draw the map - would anyone else like to comment on it?

Chamnix

Nov 17, 2005, 10:05 AM

Upon further reflection on #4, I think we should move it 1 west instead of north. If we go north, then it is an awkward distance from EMP City - too far away to be good, but too close to fit another city in between. That knocks it off the river, but we can put another town in that area on the river. I don't really know exactly how that northeast corner should play out. It looks like it could be awkward whatever we do.

General_W

Nov 17, 2005, 11:06 AM

Ok – here's version 2.0 of the settlement strategy.

http://img378.imageshack.us/img378/6543/proposedsettlementstrategynew2.th.jpg (http://img378.imageshack.us/my.php?image=proposedsettlementstrategynew2.jpg)

Changes:
* Reordered the settlement numbers – now there's more direct alternation between frontier and closer to home.

* I took our invasion/colonization settler out of the # system, and just called it "ASAP" – with the idea being that we will send a settler over as soon as we have the military escort to do so.

* I moved some of the proposed locations to reflect the points Chamnix raised.

I also named some of the roads:
SR1 and SR2 and the roads the will connect us up with the Incense.
I would advocate these being HIGH priority to construct and would personally like to see several workers assigned to this very soon. We'll want that incense hooked up as soon as possible – and these roads will serve as a foundation to get our dyes hooked up eventually also.

R1 or R2 will connect us with furs – and will be the main highway for military units and settler headed overseas.
We don't need both of them – this is an either/or situation.

R1 would be the quickest to build and units cross the river at a more strategic point (able to move all the way to the Mountain after crossing)

R2 would take longer to build and crosses at a less advantageous point, but would give us a second source of Iron. If we're going to hook up iron at Meleagerville – I'd advocate R1. However – if we want to use those workers for something else (SR1 and SR2?) then R2 might be more "on the way" for our workers to do.

Comments on the roads?
Does the v2 Settlement plan look good?

General_W

Nov 17, 2005, 11:07 AM

Dual post. weird. sorry!

see post above.

peter grimes

Nov 17, 2005, 11:30 AM

I like the R1 option best, at least for the immediate future. However, I would load the units onto a galley from the tundra square North of location 6, that tile having been roaded. That way, once a galley, waiting on the fish NE-NE of 6 is loaded, it can move in 1 turn into the safety of ASAP, as long as ASAP is relocated onto the other furs. I know this goes against some of the other points raised in favor of the 'further' furs, but this means that our unit starts its next turn (1 turn after the river) in ASAP.

At the same time, my proposal leaves our galleys undefended while waiting for cargo. I don't know if this is a major drawback. The big advantage, as I see it, is that after a unit crosses the river, it can be inside [closer fur] ASAP by the end of the turn. That is pretty fast shipping: Gauranteed Next Day!

I'm not trying to come up with alternate options whenever an idea is put forth: It's just that I didn't realize the consequences of the move options before the roads were proposed.

Meleager

Nov 17, 2005, 08:24 PM

I also like R1 best. Its easy enough to connect the iorn latter, for the time being we need the roads for movement and luxuries...

That settler plan is looking pretty good.

fe3333au

Nov 17, 2005, 09:29 PM

Embassies ... Embassies ... Embassies :p

Meleager

Nov 17, 2005, 09:31 PM

What about them? :mischief:

peter grimes

Nov 18, 2005, 12:10 PM

I have finally finished the long hard slog through the recent KISS chats concerning embassies. But that's not what I'm here to consider:

What are we researching next?

We have 3 possibilities: Polytheism, Horseback Riding, Literature, Republic, and Math.

We will hopefully get HBR and MATH through trades, REP from KISS, which leaves only POLY and LIT.

I can't see any value to POLY, except as rounding out the AA techs. LIT may be traded to either of the other two Warmongers for a hefty price, so I think Literature is our only good option right now.

General_W

Nov 18, 2005, 12:33 PM

I agree with the Lit strategy.

Quick question - would MIA even consider Monarchy for our government in order to support a large military campaign on the other continent?

peter grimes

Nov 18, 2005, 01:17 PM

KISS have/are researching REP for us. We, in turn, are giving them all these other techs, allowing KISS the luxury of focussing on REP. It appears (from the embassy stuff) that they haven't been researching at full tilt - or they've been surprisingly lucky with their hut-popping. Having them do REP is kind of like us getting it for free.

Unless I'm mistaken, we dont' actually need Polytheism or Monarchy to enter the Middle Ages. If that's the case, I think we should avoid those two techs. We could then focus on a dash to Education.

Of course, research would be faster under either Monarchy or Republic than it is under Despotism. But, there are always those anarchic turns to consider, as well as the investment in research turns to get to Monarchy to get us the faster research to get us to education faster.

I kind of feel we shouldn't research Monarchy ourselves, any time soon. If we want to switch into a Monarchy later on for any reason (unit support advantages, for instance), we could try and trade for it. If the trade partner suspects our intentions, and denies us the trade, we could then research it on our own. At that point, it wouldn't take as much of an investement as researching it now does.

So, I guess my opinion is that I'm not against going into a Monarchy, but I don't think we should invest the time to research it at this point.

fe3333au

Nov 18, 2005, 05:06 PM

I hear you Pete about not full tilt research ... so I think only fair that we withhold a tech ... and certainly give MM only when we have gotton Republic from them :mischief:

Chamnix

Nov 18, 2005, 05:44 PM

@General_W - I don't think we can win the game with Monarchy. It may be easier to handle now than Republic, but either KISS will pull away from us in research, or we will have to go through a second long anarchy. That plus the additional time we spend researching it I think makes it unappealing.

@peter grimes - Polytheism is required for advancement. I agree with everything else you said.

@fe3333au - I thought part of the point of researching Map Making was to trade luxuries with KISS. We can't do that unless they get a harbor also. It will save both of us on luxuries (assuming we don't have too many problems with barbs severing the trade route).

Chamnix

Nov 18, 2005, 10:12 PM

News flash - with the turn 63 save, TNT sent Math with accept. We could now research Currency or Construction instead of Literature if we want. Does this change our next project?

To me Lit still makes the most sense, but not by a lot. I don't see us building Marketplaces, Aqueducts, or Libraries in the immediate future - maybe a library in Heron, but that cuts into our galleys, and I don't think we can afford to stop making settlers in our factories. Lit has some potential trade value, and it's cheap so we can do it faster than the others.

Meleager

Nov 18, 2005, 10:17 PM

On the topic of science I think that the Foriegn Minstry will way heavily on this (with trade and all) so I am interested in what they have to say.

I just wanted to post this here, as this seems to be where the settler stratergy lives.

Incidentally, just to keep us from thinking we actually have a plan that we will stick to, I think it might be better to send the current settler to the hill (spot#3 on General_W's map in the Strategy Thread) instead of all the way to the incense. That way the hill gets an automatic road for our worker(s) to use instead of wasting time climbing over it without a road. Our next settler can go to the incense (the road will be a little more constructed then so he may not be that much later), and settler #3 (who will come from EMP City) can go to spot #2 (it makes more sense to send a settler from EMP City to that spot than a settler from Athens).

I may try to formalize this a little more in terms of exact turns in the morning, but I thought I'd give people something else to think about...

I think this depends a bit on time-to-travel (tot - a new abreviation). At the moment #1 will be founded in about 8 turns. #3 (if we did it next rather then 3rd) would be settled in about 9 turns (i am counting these all out in my head so I might be wrong). If we reverse the order then #3 would be founded in 4 turns, and #1 in 13 turns. However, this might change as the road is built. It averages out the same, however, I am inclined to go with the current plan as city #1 has alot more to offer then #3. The advantages of your option are that we don't have to road the #3 square though, and the #1 settler might end up travelling a bit faster. (also #3 has less corruption, making it more usefull)

Also I think #2 is a very good city spot and are inclined to get it earlier rather then later (although I have to take into account the eta and tot of settlers from athens and EMP city from this location).

Now I have gotten myself all confused :crazyeye: , does anyone else have any thoughts?

EDIT - argh that save is fast.... I guess we still have a while so we can hold whist we decide what to reashearch

General_W

Nov 19, 2005, 01:25 AM

re: Republic: Good points Chamnix - ok - forget I said anything about Monarchy - just going power-mad for a moment.

Re: City Locations: I agree with Mel - (and myself, come to think of it) - I think we should stick with #1 first.
There's not just road time and corruption to think about - there's getting that culture wall up asap. Sooner we have something in that neighborhood - the sooner we cut off KISS thoughts of pushing South of the Jungle - hopefully.
(No reason to road that hill where city #3 will go - it can just wait for the settler to get there.)

re: Tech: I still think Lit makes the most sense. Great bargening power, and we'll totally want it sooner or later anyway.

Chamnix

Nov 19, 2005, 06:38 AM

My instincts were wrong. I thought settling the hill first would save us some time, but I did a formal analysis this morning, and Meleager is right that it doesn't get the combined towns founded earlier, and in fact, it wouldn't save any worker turns either. I agree with the rest of the team that #1 still comes first.

However, it is clear that #3 should come before #2 because of where the settlers are produced. We will have a settler from Athens on 66, and 1 from EMP City on 68. If we use the settler from Athens to go to #3, he will get there on turn 69 (found on 70). The settler from EMP City will get to #2 on turn 68 to found on 69 (assuming we road the horses by then).

If the settler from Athens goes to #2, he will also get there on turn 68 to found on 69 (again assuming horses are roaded). However, the settler from EMP City will not get to spot #3 until turn 71 (found on 72).

Conclusion - we get spot #2 settled the same time either way, but we can get spot #3 settled 2 turns earlier by moving Athens' settler to it.

peter grimes

Nov 19, 2005, 09:19 AM

Regarding Research

I'm not sure we shoud go for LIT right now. Think of it this way: We know that both DNUT and TNT want LIT. We don't want it for any short-term reason other than to trade to them . Once we trade it to them, they will both likely start the GL. If we delay researching LIT, we delay trading it to them, and this in turn delays their completion of the GL: We get further along towards our goal of EDUCATION before TNT or DNUTs can complete the GL!

If we research Currency or Construction, both of which we need to leave the AA (or even Poly, as Chamnix corrected me), we can put off the day that one of the Battle Islanders attains the GL. In fact, it's entirely conceivable that we can get to EDU before one of them builds the GL.

If TNT is smart, they've started a prebuild palace, in a city that's got good production, but not stellar production. They need the really great cities to make Immortals. We should keep that in mind when thinking about the timing of trading LIT.

I cast my vote for Construction: True, there is nothing we need from it immediately, but it's a big one, and we may as well get started on it sooner rather than later.

I'd also like to hear KISS' opinions on my idea of delaying LIT research.

General_W

Nov 19, 2005, 05:54 PM

I’m torn on this.
(I know that’s not helpful – but I didn’t want you to think I was just ignoring this debate.)

I wouldn’t want to bail on Lit without telling KISS what we’re doing and why. If they put up a huge fuss – I don’t think this is worth causing a diplomatic incident over.
In all likelihood – KISS will agree with delaying Lit.

In fact – Fe and I were chatting the other day, and we have suspicions (I know… Me?!? Paranoid?!? Hard to believe.) That KISS may argue against giving us Republic until we have education – to prevent it from falling into TNT and D’nut hands. This argument makes very very good sense – but it results in them being in republic for a long time before we are. Not cool. (I’m sure they will be offer to be fair with technology – but we’ll lose an immense amount of food and shield turns).
I’m not sure if MIA not getting Lit (and just letting them research themselves) will really fundamentally change the argument. But it can’t hurt I suppose.

So yeah – not helpful. But maybe I’ll spark something in someone else’s brain?
If not literature – I like the idea of doing construction.

Chamnix

Nov 20, 2005, 07:48 AM

As part of my ongoing plot to keep our settlement strategy constantly in flux :rolleyes:, I think we might want to consider settling by the goody huts sooner. Assuming we get Horseback Riding from the Donuts and Republic from KISS, we only have 3 Ancient Age techs left (Polytheism, Construction, and Currency - I'm not counting Monarchy because I don't think we care about it). We have 2 goody huts left to pop. If we hope to get techs from them, we should move them up.

Also, I tried to take into consideration what town the settlers would be produced in. I think settlers, 1, 2, 4, and 7 will be from Athens; 3, 5, and 8 will be from EMP City; and 6 will be from Heron (if we build a settler after the harbor). I could definitely see #6 being moved up to be part of the culture wall if we want.

I know I have left out the spot on the coast near Athens (General_W's spot #4). Partly this is because a settler from EMP City should go there, and the first 3 settlers from there have other spots to go to. Another reason is that settling that location will increase rank corruption in many other towns. In particular, I am afraid that -->Look here<-- may go over 50% corrupt. Also, I'm not sure what we would do with that spot short-term - EMP City will hog the BGs, and we cannot bring water to the plains very quickly.

Comments? If everyone likes this, then I will be sure to change it soon... :shakehead.

Chamnix

Nov 20, 2005, 07:51 AM

Deliberate repost to get the picture on the next page...

As part of my ongoing plot to keep our settlement strategy constantly in flux :rolleyes:, I think we might want to consider settling by the goody huts sooner. Assuming we get Horseback Riding from the Donuts and Republic from KISS, we only have 3 Ancient Age techs left (Polytheism, Construction, and Currency - I'm not counting Monarchy because I don't think we care about it). We have 2 goody huts left to pop. If we hope to get techs from them, we should move them up.

Also, I tried to take into consideration what town the settlers would be produced in. I think settlers, 1, 2, 4, and 7 will be from Athens; 3, 5, and 8 will be from EMP City; and 6 will be from Heron (if we build a settler after the harbor). I could definitely see #6 being moved up to be part of the culture wall if we want.

I know I have left out the spot on the coast near Athens (General_W's spot #4). Partly this is because a settler from EMP City should go there, and the first 3 settlers from there have other spots to go to. Another reason is that settling that location will increase rank corruption in many other towns. In particular, I am afraid that -->Look here<-- may go over 50% corrupt. Also, I'm not sure what we would do with that spot short-term - EMP City will hog the BGs, and we cannot bring water to the plains very quickly.

Comments? If everyone likes this, then I will be sure to change it soon... :shakehead.

EDIT - Well, we can scratch the comment about increasing rank corruption in -->Look Here<--. 3,5,6, and 8 are also all closer to Athens than -->Look Here<-- is.

Meleager

Nov 20, 2005, 06:32 PM

I think I would move #6. There is talk in the next few turns thread about using it to settle battle isle but other wise I think I would at least move it to cover the fish, Ivory, and Horses further up the coast.

I wouldn't mind settling a settler up the far north east either (up near the dancing bananas on the east of the jungle line perhaps), just to help mark territory and so we have something to sacrafice to the RNG :banana:

fe3333au

Nov 20, 2005, 08:21 PM

If we now have Map Making ... are we going to build Galley and transport units to battle Isle ... we see 2 huts that are begging to be popped ...

Lets beat KISS to the mark for once !!!

We will have to trade MM soon to them, and they have already said something about settling other continent as soon as possible.

fe3333au

Nov 20, 2005, 10:22 PM

Just caught up with what tech to research next ...

The plan was for us to go for Literature, that way we could easily influence TNT and Nuts to research specific techs for us ... also if we are first we may be lucky and get a GL ...

I'm feeling uneasy about KISS (not brought up yet with them) but I thought that they were flat out researching Republic ... they are not so we will NOT give away MM until we are given Republic ...

I'd go for Lit ... we had ok relationships with the Battle Islanders and can probably get good deals with them ...

General_W

Nov 20, 2005, 11:48 PM

Nice work Chamnix!
This settlement strategy is getting better all the time.

I DO agree with Mel though - you current location for #6 will be a fine spot to put a city someday, but I'd settle up by the fish, Ivory, horse, and river first. Will just be a better all around city, and isn't that much further away.

I’ll look at this even more tomorrow.

peter grimes

Nov 21, 2005, 09:03 AM

Lets beat KISS to the mark for once !!!

Cheers to that! I think we've got Mel on board for OC settlement/exploration. Now if we can just convince the MoDefence and the Prez..... We'll need their cooperation if we're going to be successful at pulling this off.

Could this be the First Greek Stealth Mission? Establish a foothold on BattleIsle without any opponents' knowledge.

fe3333au

Nov 21, 2005, 09:12 AM

Unless the KISS unslow their research ... we have 33 turns to build, load, ferry, unload, go back for settler and finally build a city with Hoplite defenders ...

That's an impressive lead to the KISS, who will be itching to get to Battle Isle ... I suspect when they find out ... they will kick research into over drive ...

I will not bring it up in conversation ... however I will be honest from now on when asked ... unless told otherwise.

I'm also thinking it is time to train Hoplites instead of Warriors

Chamnix

Nov 21, 2005, 09:33 AM

Now if we can just convince the MoDefence and the Prez..... We'll need their cooperation if we're going to be successful at pulling this off.

Based on the Constitution, Meleager is the only relevant one regarding settlement options - the settlers will go wherever he wants. I'm sure the Defense Minister will defend the settlers wherever they go.

Similarly, fe3333au is the only relevant one regarding whether to trade Map Making or not.

Let me just get a word of caution in about the proposed plan - what will KISS' reaction be to our not giving them Map Making and settling off-continent first? Worst case, it creates tension that boils over into no future deals and an early war. Best case (which is not all that great), KISS has nothing to do but settle our continent like mad, and you can bet there will be absolutely no mercy regarding how far south they are willing to send their settlers.

The question is not just whether we want KISS on the other continent or not, the question is whether we want KISS settlements on the other continent or more on our continent. I don't know the answer, but I think we need to think about the consequences on our home continent instead of just focussing on the overseas advantage we can get. An option might be to trade Map Making early only if they agree to leave us half of our continent.

peter grimes

Nov 21, 2005, 09:48 AM

An option might be to trade Map Making early only if they agree to leave us half of our continent.

This goes back to the idea of getting down on parchment exactly where KISS is allowed to settle south to, and how far north we are allowed to settle. I am in full support of trying to nail them down on this. MapMaking is a very big carrot to bring them to the table over.

fe3333au

Nov 21, 2005, 09:58 AM

Nicely put Mr Prez :salute:

If we decide to reap benefits of early exploration, we should change Harbour producing city to Galley.

That way we can transport a warrior asap.

Regarding KISS

I will state that we are NOT breaking agreements and feel more comfortable in getting Republic when we give MM ... after all we too are eager to get Republic ... will also mention in passing that their go slow research approach could possibly be misconstued by MIA ... I will also assure them that we will NOT trade with any other but them this technology ... and then quite openly ask what they would do in our place (maybe pointing out embassy coupe)

However we could as Mr. prez suggests give it up early in return for assurances in their settlement strategy.

Either way we have a lead on a technology that gives us a distinct advantage ... we should for once use it ... I urge us to use it ... KISS are smart cookies lets take the initiative :salute:

General_W

Nov 21, 2005, 10:02 AM

I like the idea of talking with KISS about the MM and Republic stuff. Whatever the outcome, it will be better to have this out in the open, and no one feeling like they've been lied too or taken advantage of.

peter grimes

Nov 21, 2005, 10:47 AM

Good points, everyone. This should be out in the open. Whomp is a very reasonable leader. I think he'll see our side of the issue.

After all, none of us (MIA) want to see this profitable relationship ruined over sucha minor thing. But, from KISS' point of view, it really isn't fair for us to restrict their settling on our continent (like the SpiceWars incident), all the while claiming 'freedom to settle anywhere' on the other continent while we withhold MapMaking. But at the same time, we can't just gift Maps without exposing the Green Alliance. Therefore, we need to make KISS understand that we will use this tech while we can, but the sooner they get Republic the sooner we can trade them Maps. We cannot afford to let the BI's know of our arrangement.

We should tell KISS we are putting together a landing party to establish a settlement. Also let them know that we will be sending hut-popping war-spies.

We could also promise to give KISS as accurate descriptions of BI as is allowed by the ruleset. This way, they don't have to take on the capital investment of exploration: We got maps first, we got units over there first, we are taking all the risks in exploration, while they will get the benefits without the risks.

Our first units could be a couple of warriors, who will undoubtedly incur the wrath of the BattleIslanders. But right now both BI's need us to assist in their war. I don't think they'll go so far as to attack. We tell them we just want to get some eyewitness testimony as to how our investments are being put to use.

Is this in the right direction?

fe3333au

Nov 22, 2005, 06:57 AM

I second Peter with regards to getting a couple of brave MIAers to stroll around Battle Isle as soon as possible :D ... maybe some of those chaps who are eager to get awards pinned on their chests :lol:

fe3333au

Nov 22, 2005, 08:33 AM

Quick Mini Map which shows all known Goody Huts (Red) and the Barbarian Nest (Blue) ...

As can be seen, there are 2 coastal huts ... and probably more in the deepest darkest interia of Battle Isle :D

Chamnix

Nov 22, 2005, 11:40 AM

I am advocating waiting for KISS to complete Republic before we give them Map Making ... but other voices are already saying give it early ... so if this does happen, we lose our potential advantage sooner ... don't forget they have already stated that they want to start settling Battle Isle as a priority !!

The more I think about Map Making, the more I wonder what we really gain by withholding it from KISS. OK, we can place a town on Battle Isle first. We could even place 3 or 4 towns before they place one. It sounds great, but how exactly in concrete terms does it help us? Battle Isle is not filling up nearly as quickly as our continent. KISS will be able to establish a beachhead there before the intercontinental war starts anyway. KISS will not be looking to settle the same spots we are, so we are not fighting for the same real estate. We will be forced to defend our towns, and may be attacked while KISS is still on peaceful terms with Battle Isle leaving us clearly worse off. Other than the psychological effect, what do we really gain by having 3 or 4 settlements there before KISS has maps?

Other reasons? Without Map Making KISS cannot build galleys, but they can build curraghs, and they are sitting on a pile of cash that will be available to upgrade. KISS can’t build harbors so they can’t trade via a sea route, but neither can we until somebody else has Map Making. KISS’ ships will not be veteran, but do we really expect a lot of naval battles?

Meanwhile, if KISS cannot expand overseas, then every settler we send over there is one more chunk of land on our continent that we cede to KISS. I don’t see that we gain a lot from withholding Map Making, and if we can get something valuable for it (for example, a promise to stay north of the equator), then I really think we should take it. Let KISS settle corrupt towns on Battle Isle instead of overrunning our continent.

peter grimes

Nov 22, 2005, 12:00 PM

Thanks for putting some of my thoughts in such clear language, Chamnix!

Specifically, there are two aspects to withholding MapMaking that I've been thinking about: Leveraging an agreement about settlement on our continent; and the settlement differential resulting from our settlers not staying here while theirs do.

If we give KISS maps early, we provide an outlet for their fecundity. They will be able to send more settlers to BattleIsle than we can, but those are settlers that WON'T be taking up space on our continent.

I'm not advocating setting up 4 cities over there immediately. I am advocating a city just south of the jungle (roughly), maybe a second closer to DNUT, with a road? to connect for trade.

The best thing about getting KISS Maps sooner, besides a settler release valve, is that we could trade luxuries. Just look at how much of our military is tied up at home for economic reasons! Those are warriors that could be exploring BattleIsle, if only we let KISS have maps early.

But, and this is a big but, how do we do it such that KISSMIA is not revealed? Should we try to give maps to everyone else as well?

Chamnix

Nov 22, 2005, 12:42 PM

As far as keeping KISSMIA secret, TNT is irrelevant - they don't have Writing yet, so they have no idea who has what after that. If we have to tell Donuts something, it could be we are trading KISS Map Making and Literature for Republic, but we gave Map Making early to trade luxuries. I definitely don't think we want to give maps to Donuts.

General_W

Nov 22, 2005, 01:05 PM

OK - very good. This makes sense to me now.

I totally support giving MM to KISS early. By all means, lets try to wrangle a settle agreement out of them - but even if they don't agree, I still think this is a good plan.

As for the Battle Islanders - let's keep D'nut in the dark for sure. I see that relationship going sour sooner rather than later.

As for TNT - we shouldn't give it right away - but I'm starting to think we may want to forge a strong (under the table) relationship with them. We'll need them to keep the pressure up on the D'nuts, and if they can do some serious damage to KISS that works in our favor also!
Of course, we don't want to get caught undercutting KISS - but I'd like to see us help TNT as much as we can get away with. The stronger TNT is, the weaker KISSes expansion will be.
(Note - we can always claim any tech trading is the result of hut popping on the other Isle - at least for the Ancient Age)

peter grimes

Nov 22, 2005, 07:16 PM

Hmmmm.... a secret deal with TNT.... keeping KISS in check on the other continent..... This smacks of cleverness!

We could ask TNT for 'Non-aggression Pact' regarding our potential BattleIsle settlements. We tell TNT that we are there for purely peaceful reasons, keeping an eye on their war with DNUTs. In exchange for TNT not attacking us, we will make sure that they stay competitive tech-wise, but we want first luxury trades of any excesses. Of course, we'd need to know exactly which luxuries they have that we don't.

But none of this can go against the spirit and letter of the agreements we have with KISS: KISS must be informed of all tech trading/gifting we do with TNT.

The danger in all of this is that we create a monster. It will be difficult to strike a balance between keeping TNT competitive without them becoming overly powerful... after all, MIA is supposed to win this thing!

fe3333au

Nov 22, 2005, 09:21 PM

Have discussed with KISS ... Map Making and other things Here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=3356561&postcount=4) ... good timing Meleet :worship: is with us :D

Points of Interest
Nuts in GA :wow:
A yet to be discovered, Barb Camp near Senilityville ... new city name ;)
KISS very eager to scout Battle Isle
KISS very eager to keep Green Alliance secret :salute:
Suddenly KISS have managed to unconcrete Republic research from an unchangable 33 to 20 turns max. :lol:
KISS are aware that we want equal halves on our continent.

Damned that was fun :mischief: fishing was excellent :lol:

General_W

Nov 28, 2005, 02:49 PM

So – I've been thinking about this question of whether or not to settle the battle Island soon (20,000 leagues thread), and I realized something…

The question isn't really so much over how soon we settle – it's a more basic question… What helps us get our Space Race win the most?
(so I'm posting this here)

Check out my list of ramifications:

1) Aggressive Settlement
Ramifications: Settle Battle Island SOON – on Furs by Dnuts:
TNT: This will boost our relationship with TNT, we open up a second front for them, and help them stay alive and thriving for longer (by drawing Dnut attention away from them)

Dnuts: Become our enemies. It is only realistic to expect they will view our settling near their core on their luxury items as aggressive, and they will respond sooner or later with military force. In the short term, even if we avoid military consequences, we will poison our trading relationship.
If we go this route – I'd strongly advocate devoting more resources to military readiness to get ready for the inevitable Dnut war.

KISS: Remains our #1 Ally. Highly unlikely to care about our settlement, but may become nervous over our relationship with TNT. We will need to be very careful to not get so friendly with TNT that we jeopardize our relationship with KISS.
Also – if we get into a fight with Dnuts, we may be able to talk KISS into helping us fight them. KISS will want to use their Gallic Swordsmen to get a GA and capture some cities – but I think we'd still do better than KISS in the war, because we're so much closer. KISS may just leave us on our own to fight – but that's ok… it'll save us from being involved in any TNT-KISS war without diplomatic damage.

TerritoryThis move won't gain us anything we really need – but could be vital step in someday (when our technological advantage is overwhelming) wiping Dnuts off the face of the map and grabbing lots of their land.

Space Race: We can be as bigger or bigger than KISS – we control lots of land and population. Overall – very strong position for a late game win. Biggest threat – war goes badly, and we go into a tailspin while KISS (or anyone else) prospers.

2) Delayed Settlement
Ramifications: Settle Battle Island LATER – Near Jungle in the Center:
TNT: We continue to build a good relationship with TNT, but we likely end up in a war with them later when they attack the invading KISS.

Dnuts: We continue to build a good relationship with the Dnuts, no real changes.

KISS: Remains our #1 Ally. Will probably begin an invasion of TNT – and may want to draw us into that war. This is a bad situation for us, because KISS will gain much more from the war than we would (they have Gallic Swordsmen and they are much closer). If we refuse – or even worse, aid TNT – then we risk ruining a VERY important alliance.
The TNT-KISS war is likely to happen no matter what we do settlement-wise, and if we're not fighting the D'nuts – we don't really have any excuse to not help them.

Territory: Settling in the jungle regions may gain us some jungle-only resources we lose to KISS on our own land.

Space Race: KISS is bigger and stronger than us, but we do have jungle resources we need. Biggest threat – KISS can beat us in any victory condition they choose.

3) No settlement
Ramifications: Do NOT Settle Battle Island:
TNT: We continue to build a good relationship with TNT, and everything continues pretty much as-is. We'll suffer some strain when the KISS-TNT war breaks out, but we can hopefully survive it.

Dnuts: We continue to build a good relationship with the Dnuts, no real changes.

KISS: Remains our #1 Ally. We will likely need to offer some kind of token support for their war against TNT – but hopefully we can say "we don't have any cities over there, we really can't help – here's some Gold… good luck!"

Territory: We fill up our Land sooner, we have much lower military supports costs = more profitable Republic.

Space Race: KISS is bigger and stronger than us, but have hopefully spent a lot more on settlement and war than we have. Our smaller empire of much more productive cities out-tech KISS and we win. Biggest threat – a militarily strong KISS turns on us before we launch.

I really look forward to hearing your comments corrections additions and disagreements.

But going on what I've got here, I find myself thinking that option #2 really doesn’t have much going for it. #1 and #3 both seem better… so I'd like us to do one of those!

Chamnix

Nov 28, 2005, 05:32 PM

I can't really disagree with your conclusions, but they seem to be triggered mainly around who we fight first. For #1, we are clearly fighting Donuts first. For #2, you are saying that we will be forced to fight TNT first or risk a rupture in our KISS alliance. For #3, you are saying we are staying out of war for a while.

I think the critical thing from your analysis is that fighting TNT first is bad because KISS gains more, but fighting Donuts first is preferable because we can gain more. The question becomes can we control who we fight and when based on our settlement strategy?

With #1, we pretty much guarantee we fight Donuts first, but I'm not at all sure it will be at a time of our choosing - they could easily attack before we are ready. I don't see #3 as a real option - we need land on the other continent at some point. So, if we choose #2, can we still fight Donuts first at a time we pick? If we can, then I still think that is the best choice.

If KISS attacks TNT, then I think it is KISS' problem. We will be gearing up for an assault on Donuts, and I see no reason why KISS should choose the Green Alliance's first opponent instead of us.

If TNT attacks KISS, that will definitely make things difficult. I'm not sure if TNT will do that - they seem to have more than they can handle already, but they are not reasonable, and KISS' settlers are aggressive.

General_W

Nov 28, 2005, 05:52 PM

Good points Mr. President (I expect nothing less)

Here's my concern with the pending TNT-KISS war…

1) I see the TNT-KISS war as inevitable. TNT will attack KISS for the same reason they have attacked Dnuts and for the same reason Dnuts would attack us if we settle near them. TNT wants land, and they'll take it from anyone near at hand. It's possible KISS will declare war first, but why would they? They can just settler spam and choke out TNT if TNT is being weirdly peaceful.

2) The TNT-KISS war will draw Dnuts and KISS into a natural alliance. I'm sure Dnuts will be thrilled to see another team open up a second front against TNT and it will only be natural for both sides to coordinate military operations to their mutual benefit.
This leaves MIA in a bad spot. We can't significantly help TNT – or we risk trouble with KISS. Going to all out war with TNT isn't really good either, because we'll mostly just help KISS and Dnuts. We don't want to really help the D'nuts either – as we'll probably need to attack and kill them at some point and we'd rather have them weak. Besides, KISS may get upset that we're attacking their ally, and we could end up planting the seeds of KISS switching alliances from us to the D'nuts… bad! Bad! bad!
So basically, we end up as the weak younger sister of KISS.

The problem thus becomes – How do we mitigate the effects of KISS-TNT war?
Specifically, we need to do 2 Key Things…
A) Prevent a KISS-Dnuts alliance
B) Covertly help TNT do as much damage to KISS as possible

I see an early war with Dnuts as one way to accomplish this.
We can prevent a KISS-Dnut alliance by calling on KISS to help us against the Dnuts – at the very least by not talking to them or helping them.
We can covertly help TNT by weakening the Dnuts and allowing TNT some breathing room.

Are there other ways? Perhaps.
I'd love to hear a good alternate strategy.

My worry is that if we delay in doing something (anything!) to upset the natural progression we're seeing in this game – the natural KISS-Dnut alliance against TNT will materialize and we'll be left in the cold with no good options left. Settlement option #2 is only a good option if we can find some way (other than war) to make "Key Things" A and B happen. (imo)

fe3333au

Nov 28, 2005, 09:24 PM

I was actually going to request discussion about what technology we want to offer (if any) to Battle Islanders ... we have two carrots being dangled Currancy and Polytheism ... which we can pass on for Literature or Map Making ... other question should be get the KISS Republic deal before we get new technologies first.

I know KISS are in a Shylockian frenzy to gain coinage ;)

I want input please ... thanks.

Now as I've just read above ... I see we are still discussing whether or not to travel overseas ... Geez guyz I've already spent big on luggage, sun screen and visas :cool:

Bloody computer lost with all this password access bull**** what I had written before ... I'll try again

My play style is a peaceful expansion with strong defence ... that is why I voted Greek ... it has been proven that diplomacy really does work in this game ... we managed to stop a potential war :wavey: ... if our approach had been chosen different then it really would have come to blows ... I feel confident that there are players on all teams that would see reason ... maybe I'm being too idealistic don't know ... (KISS mentioned that Robi is pissed off with TNT for putting them in this situation.) ... AI strategies should be modified, we are playing humans.

Can no-one else see a NO WAR game ??? ... maybe not :(

We could try a neutral approach ... add clause into foreign agreements which would prevent backstabs as we have with KISS ... which the admin team will police, with the offending team being penalised. (think it's in the rules somewhere) if they doublecross.

Anyway I actually see the most likely scenario is that Green Alliance join with one team to destroy the other totally ... and then there will be 3 ... and then Amigos ... We have a very Mexican Standoff :smoke:

BUT for this to work ... We really do need a prescence on Battle Isle ... therefore how about we settle a turn or two after KISS, that way they will be considered the greater threat ...

Seriously ... All this talk about maybe we should stay home cos the neighbours won't like our music is becoming disturbing :twitch: ... if this is a serious concern than maybe we should stay home and build castle MIA and peep out the arrow slots incase someone comes too near :rolleyes: ... maybe sending ground units overseas is also a bad move ... after all we really do need to protect properly the property we already have ... may as well give Map Making to KISS now ... that way we can watch far away from the safety of our walled cities how KISS will streak away in the game ... and then we can wonder and muse and think of what could have been ... In fact not even sure why we are researching sooo quickly ... Speed Kills :shakehead

Analysis and discussion is good ... but we fall again into this procrastuination stupur ... :coffee: ... and wonder why we always seem to be folowing KISS when we have the advantage.

Come On MIA ... what ever happened to Take No Prisoners !!!

Seems we should change motto to Take No Risks :cry:

peter grimes

Nov 29, 2005, 06:15 AM

Nothing like an impassioned speech to get my thinking juices flowing in the morning.

Regarding General_W's "Aggressive settlement / Delayed settlement / No settlement": Your conclusion that if we go for delayed settlement up near the jungle band will NOT result in DNUT's taking offense is wrong. I strongly suspect that DNUTs and TNT will have sharp words about us settling anywhere in the middling region. The only way I see one BattleIslander not having a problem with our settlements is if we settle in the other team's territory. Therefore, your conclusion that TNT will like it if we settle in DNUT's SouthWest is correct.

Regarding Chamnix' distillation that we should just trying to go to war at a time that suits us (and furthers our goal of Space), I see TNT as Partners. Once we have Republic, we could then talk about timing a Golden Age. Ideally, ours would happen after the DNUT's ran out. Also, we'd have to gift TNT up to speed. We need TNT to aggressively fend of KISS settlement.

Maybe a secret pact with TNT is in order?.... One that would only be engaged if we see our relationship with KISS heading down the tubes.

Regarding The Impassioned Plea for Travel...
I think you may be missing the point of the preceding posts. They are not arguing that we should or should not settle over there. We are certainly going to found cities on BattleIsle. The posts were nailing down exaclty how we should settle in a way that best suits our desired Victory Condition. There's no use wasting resources on an early settlement (resources that could be better used at home) if early settlement will not advance our goals. That's what I've been reading at least.

As for the potential trades of Maps and Lit for Currency and Poly: Maps can't really do any of them any good right now. The only thing I see TNT doing is putting a few immortals on a boat to try and sneak around to cut-off DNUT's horse supply. I don't expect to see a wave of Immortals or Mounted Warriors on our shores while there is still a war going on.

So I have changed my mind about trading Maps. Certainly KISS will have to be brought into the loop on this, but I would say let's get MAPs for Currency.

General_W

Nov 29, 2005, 10:42 AM

Regarding The Impassioned Plea for Travel...
I think you may be missing the point of the preceding posts. They are not arguing that we should or should not settle over there. We are certainly going to found cities on BattleIsle. The posts were nailing down exaclty how we should settle in a way that best suits our desired Victory Condition. There's no use wasting resources on an early settlement (resources that could be better used at home) if early settlement will not advance our goals. That's what I've been reading at least.
Exactly right!
@Fe – I fear you totally misunderstood me. I am absolutely NOT advocating that we stay home in our castle. I just want us to be prepared for the consequences of what our settling overseas will do.
I have incredible respect for your diplomacy, but ask yourself – if we hike over to our furs, and find that the Dnuts have already settled there – would any amount of silver-tongued diplomatic acrobatics save them from our continent cleansing wrath? I think not.
There's nothing they could give us to make it worthwhile having en enemy that close on our homeland. To expect them to feel differently is wild optimism/foolishness, imo. (If I'm wrong – so much the better! Dnuts are fools and we'll choke them out peacefully on their own land. But if I'm right – and we're unprepared… then we suffer a humiliating setback and make a game-long enemy anyway.)

Certainly KISS will have to be brought into the loop on this, but I would say let's get MAPs for Currency
I agree – I'd like to delay giving KISS maps – but once we start trading it – let's get everything we can for it! Peter's right, it really doesn’t do the Battle-Islanders a whole lot of good.

fe3333au

Nov 29, 2005, 11:28 AM

Been thinking the same thing myself, trading Map Making is a good idea :salute: as it will enable us to trade with the Battle Islanders whenever they get around to building a harbour.

A Great Library race is better left unsupported ... unless a caveat similar to KISS' We will not build Great Library condition is agreed to ... (something I feel is unworkable in game)

Chamnix

Nov 29, 2005, 11:46 AM

I was coming to the opposite conclusion from everyone else regarding Literature vs. Map Making. If we can make deals giving up Literature instead of Maps, I think we are better off:

Literature is cheaper than Map Making.
Literature is not required for advancement, Map Making is.
Libraries are really not useful during Despotism as very few cities will have enough beakers to make building a library worthwhile, and neither Battle Islander is close to another government yet.
I don't think we will have any luxury trades to make with Battle Island anytime soon if we get wines from KISS.
I like knowing there is absolutely no possibility of foreign troops on our land (I know there is not much chance of them visiting even with Map Making, but I prefer no chance).

We can't deny them the Great Library completely since they can (and will) research Literature on their own if we won't trade, but I prefer to make them research Map Making on their own instead of Literature.

We know Donuts will take Literature for Polytheism. I doubt TNT will take either for Currency straight up, but we will have to see...

General_W

Nov 29, 2005, 12:00 PM

fe3333au: so you prefer trading MM or Lit to the others for the tech proposals
GeneralW77: hmm. good points. I don't want KISS trading MM to the battleIslanders ... but I don't want KISS trading anything to them...
fe3333au: he makes good arguments ... I'm not sure which way to go ... the Great Library race is a big threat ...
GeneralW77: sigh. it's a tough call.
fe3333au: Yes I'm looking at trading or signing agreemnets with TNT and Nuts to lock them in ... that way MIA win over KISS for once
fe3333au: Lit better deal
GeneralW77: the longer we delay them getting the Great Library the better- of course, they're probably doing a pre-build already (if they're smart) so our delay won't really do any good.
fe3333au: no it won't
GeneralW77: might as well give it to them, and keep going full steam for Education.
fe3333au: Yes education LOL
fe3333au: maybe talk KISS into going for that ... and us doing other techs
GeneralW77: yeah - the more I think about it, the more like giving them lit.
GeneralW77: who knows - maybe we'll capture the Great Library city from Dnuts (or KISS will get it from TNT) anyway.
fe3333au: Monotheism -> Theology -> Education ... pity it is so straight line
fe3333au: I'm still oscillating ... but had initial leanings to Lit ... but eitherway we trade them the same tech

@ Chamnix: You won me over! I think trading lit and hanging on to MM makes more sense. As long as we can make sure KISS dosn't arange a way to trade MM to them!

peter grimes

Nov 29, 2005, 12:14 PM

I'm still on the fence about Lit over Maps to trade. The problem with giving either DNUTs or TNT access to the Great Library is it affects our gaining Republic.

I know everyone has read this several times before, but here it is:

If KISS trade us Republic after the GL is constructed, then that BattleIslander also has access to it. There is no way to prevent that, unless we delay the Republic trade. At the moment, we're not ready to go into a Republic, but I don't really have a good idea of when, and under what circumstances, we will be ready.

We could talk with KISS and delay trading anything at all until education is reached (is that even feasible?)

Or, we could just let the techs fall where they will, bite the bullet, and pretend that the acquisition of the GL has no profound impact on our situation.

Unfortunately, Mono Theo and Edu are nonetheless sufficiently costly for us at this stage that I don't really see us being able to turn off the GL for 3 terms or so. I'm not saying I'm totally against trading LIT, as there are some very strong arguments for it. But there are some pretty strong arguments against it, as well. It's a tough nut.

General_W

Nov 29, 2005, 12:19 PM

you're exactly right Peter - it is a pickle!
But the reality is, if either team wants the Great Library, they have probably already started the pre-build, and they WILL be able to research Lit on their own before they finish the pre-build anyway.

Getting Lit sooner dosn't really help them, because (thanks to the prebuild) they can already start work on it now anway.

So as ugly as it is - it's really beyond our control as to when/if they get the GL.

Chamnix

Nov 29, 2005, 01:50 PM

MIA’s not getting Republic to deny the Great Library builder is not an option. To get to Education, we would have to give KISS all Ancient Age techs, and they would not give us anything yet. They would be in Republic probably 50+ turns before us and have a massive commercial advantage.

They have to understand that would be giving them the game, and we could not accept it. If they insisted they would not give it to us, then we would just have to research Republic ourselves, our trading days would be over, and the Great Library owner would still get Republic – we hold all the cards in that bargaining session with KISS.

Really, Republic is not going to be as valuable to the Battle Islanders anyway. They have fewer towns therefore less unit support, they need more units for the war, and they will add the possibility of war weariness. It is not obvious that whoever builds the Great Library will be able to afford to switch to Republic in any case as long as they are fighting.

As far as when we will be ready for Republic, I like to think we will be ready now when it is completed. When we were discussing our preparedness before, I thought KISS would be finishing around turn 70. Now that we are talking about turn 85, we should be ready.

fe3333au

Nov 29, 2005, 01:55 PM

In that case in a purely value context ... Literature would be the better tech to trade.

Since I suspect that we would be trading Writing into the package for Currancy from TNT

What do the silent masses think :p

Now that we are talking about turn 85, we should be ready.

:clap: Excellent Mr Prez ... lets replace should with will :salute:

peter grimes

Nov 29, 2005, 02:21 PM

I didn't realize that the other teams wouldn't be ready to switch to Republic. Of course, it makes sense, what with the few towns and all those units. I had seen Republic as a sort of crown jewel that must be guarded at all costs.

Apparently, I've been a little over-paranoid* about letting those huns on Battle Isle get anything i see as valuable whatsoever. I should stop being so stingy, and remind myself of their backwardness.

So, if KISS is planning on scouting with warriors, and we are planning on doing the same, I suppose we should get a galley going. We might also want to consider 'pre-positioning' a settler such that we could send him with a non-hoplite defense to BattleIsle in case we need to respond quickly for any reason. I say non-hoplite, because I don't think we want our Golden Age any time soon.

As for TNT, we need to start bleeding them a little bit. We are vastly more powerful than they in the Research department. Can we get a couple of slaves from them or something? They were so poorly behaved in the first 40 turns or so, sometimes it really irks me that they haven't even offered an explanation for their behavoir. I think they've realized that their tactic of Mean-Nastiness wasn't working, and now they are actually being rewarding just for being civil! [/rant]

*I say over-paranoid because a little paranoia keeps you sharp ;)

Chamnix

Nov 29, 2005, 02:47 PM

It is tricky - we don't really have any non-hoplite defense. The only other unit we have available with a defense greater than 1 is a swordsmen, and that is kind of expensive for defense, and will also be very ineffective defending against mounted warriors. We are either not going to have an effective defender in our city or we are going to risk an early Golden Age once we settle over there.

I love the idea of getting a slave or 2 from TNT. We have so many techs to offer them, and they have no techs to exchange for them. They probably shouldn't make deals giving away workers, but we can try.

fe3333au

Nov 29, 2005, 02:59 PM

MIA recieving a slave is good ... I do this with AI all the time and also like doing it with players in pbem :clap:

But what value technology ???

Also and more important, the transaction would be displayed in the F-3 Military Pophead Screen as a 'captured' unit ... unless it is the slave taken originally by TNT, in that case the 'captured' unit would be shown as Nut.

EDIT DISCLAIMER ... I am 90% sure on the slave display title ... 100% on the fact that it will show everyone.

Another option, if the situation allows it (maybe in this case only with KISS)
>We can trade for work to be done by KISS workers ... I've offered a 1gp per worker per turn rate in other games.

General_W

Nov 29, 2005, 03:13 PM

I'd also like to applaud any efforts to trade tech to TNT for workers. Persia is industrious right? Doesn’t that make their slaves better?

As for the settlement escort – I think it's extremely unwise to settle overseas without hoplite defense.
Agreed – we'd like to avoid a pre-republic GA – but hopefully our hoplites will be scary enough that Dnuts won't attack immediately. (maybe some diplomatic hand wringing and bargaining can also delay the start of the war?)
If NOT getting an early GA is that important, then we should delay settling. Settling without hoplites is just begging to lose a city.
I don't think there will ever be a "perfect" time to settle – but it may be worthwhile to try to time our settlement to about 5-10 turns before Republic. (of course, if Republic comes sooner than expected, that's great also).

peter grimes

Nov 29, 2005, 03:28 PM

I'm not sure about the uneasiness with the slave being revealed by the military pop-head. Are you concerned that Dnuts will divine the trading between us and TNT? We've made no exclusives with Dnuts, so we are allowed to trade with TNT if we choose.

We could mask that by gifting a TNT slave to KISS immediately - this would be effective because of the turn order. Dnuts, who go first, won't ever see that we have a slave if we pass her on to KISS (with accept) immediately upon recieving the slave.

On the other hand, let's go over it once again: Why is it bad for DNUTs to wipe out TNT?

Is it that it then makes KISS settlement on BattleIsle easier? Is it the balance of three teams rather than 4, with one team completely free on a whole continent?

I'd really prefer TNT to wipe out DNuts but still remain technologically backward. We'd be free to expand into DNUTs old territory, and KISS would have a tougher time and distance to settle BattleIsle. Seems that if anything, we should be offering our slaves to TNT. Man, they really mixed stuff up, didn't they?!

As for a non-hoplite defender to send with a settler:
We are either not going to have an effective defender in our city or we are going to risk an early Golden Age once we settle over there.

So we need to consider that we won't be sending a settler there until we are ready for a Golden Age. Therefore, we have to start talking about what our goals are to accomplish by the end of the GA. I'd like more experienced players to elucidate more specifically, but here is a general outline:

We need to lay the foundations for everything that we want to happen - get any city improvements in place beforehand, ensure that our terrain is improved as much as we think we need, and get units prepped for any operations we want to carry out. I can't tell you how many games I've 'wasted' by not controlling and preparing for my Golden Age. There are very careful players on the KISS team, and they certainly won't waste their GA.

At the same time, is there an advantage to coordinating our GA's? Should we dump into Monarchy and try to eliminate the other two teams in the Medieval Age leaving KISSMIA free to commence our own space races?

Chamnix

Nov 29, 2005, 04:44 PM

I don't think there will ever be a "perfect" time to settle – but it may be worthwhile to try to time our settlement to about 5-10 turns before Republic. (of course, if Republic comes sooner than expected, that's great also).

This is dangerous because we definitely do not want our Golden Age to start on the first turn of a 9-turn anarchy.

I'm not sure about the uneasiness with the slave being revealed by the military pop-head. Are you concerned that Dnuts will divine the trading between us and TNT? We've made no exclusives with Dnuts, so we are allowed to trade with TNT if we choose.

I agree. In fact it could definitely be argued that we are helping Donuts - the worker is far more useful to TNT's war effort than any techs we could give them would be.

On the other hand, let's go over it once again: Why is it bad for DNUTs to wipe out TNT?

I think we just don't want either team to win easily. The best result is an ongoing stalemate where they are both devoting their resources to building units then losing them.

General_W

Nov 29, 2005, 05:04 PM

This is dangerous because we definitely do not want our Golden Age to start on the first turn of a 9-turn anarchy. I certainly agree.
I'm just saying it's also dangerous to delay setteling for too long also.

When do we expect to get Republic from KISS? If we had a good solid date, we could plan to start our settlement at the same time and gamble that Dnuts won't/can't hit us right away.

If we get republic fast enough, maybe we can't get settlers over there beforehand anyway!

Did we ever get a final version of that settlement map? Last I saw there was still a lot of discussion. (at work atm, and can't go look it up.) I think it will help this discussion greatly to have a better grasp on when Republic will come and how soon we can send a settler and hoplites overseas regardless.
Then we can have a more productive debate - ie. is it worth delaying X number of turns to get our Republic?

EDIT: And as for the TNT vs Dnuts thing: I don't think we want them equal at all! I would like to see a Militarily strong TNT mostly confined to the North, a weak and devastated Dnut in the south that is being eaten piece by piece by MIA. (and a KISS that are firm allies of ours, but spending heavily on fighting a strong TNT.)
If we determined that trading a worker for Tech will hurt them - then we shouldn't do it. But I'm not so sure it would. From their POV trading one pop and a few shield for a tech may be a great deal! I don't think we need to worry about TNT's advancement level until the late middle ages. Personally, I think the sooner they get pikemen and knights, the more of a pain in the side of KISS they can be. After that point we want TNT to stagnate and whither. And, of course, we ultimately want KISS to triumph... we just want to be way ahead of them when they do!

Chamnix

Nov 29, 2005, 05:44 PM

When do we expect to get Republic from KISS? If we had a good solid date, we could plan to start our settlement at the same time and gamble that Dnuts won't/can't hit us right away.

If we get republic fast enough, maybe we can't get settlers over there beforehand anyway!

Did we ever get a final version of that settlement map? Last I saw there was still a lot of discussion. (at work atm, and can't go look it up.) I think it will help this discussion greatly to have a better grasp on when Republic will come and how soon we can send a settler and hoplites overseas regardless.
Then we can have a more productive debate - ie. is it worth delaying X number of turns to get our Republic?

I think the latest estimate for Republic was about 17 turns, so somewhere around turn 85. We will have a galley in 4, a hoplite in 5, and settlers constantly, so we certainly could get there if we want to.

I think this (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=3344973&postcount=121) is the latest settlement map. We already have settlers approaching 1, 2, and 3, but the rest is in a state of flux.

fe3333au

Nov 29, 2005, 11:13 PM

We get republic at the latest in 17 turns ... Whomp is trying to tweak the research to maximum ... he mentioned that this 'adjusting' exercise could shave off approximately 2 turns of time.

General_W

Nov 29, 2005, 11:19 PM

Thank you Cham and Fe!

This has been really great discussion. I think it is becoming more and more obvious that we should get scouts over to the Battle Isle asap, but wait till we have Republic to go over (in force) with our settlers.

Is that what everyone else is seeing here?

peter grimes

Nov 30, 2005, 07:12 AM

Yes, definitely scout now, and only settle once we're in Republic.

Speaking of which, in Vanilla, the number of anarchic turns is determined by the turn on which you start your revolution. So, depending on how you time it, you may wind up with 6 turns or anarchy, or only 2 (or something like that). Is it the same in Conquests?

Chamnix

Nov 30, 2005, 07:21 AM

It's the same in Conquests. It is partly based on the size on your Empire when you revolt and partly random. The only difference I think is that Conquests anarchy is 1 turn longer than Vanilla - religious civs get 2 turns of anarchy instead of 1, and everyone else gets between 2 and 9 instead of between 1 and 8.

Meleager

Nov 30, 2005, 11:00 PM

Good work here.

I've noticed that since we have had this thread we have started to actually play the game rather then observe it.

And I'm voting option C ;)

General_W

Dec 01, 2005, 10:55 AM

In light of the past discussion, I'd like us to take another look at our relationships with the other teams.

Before I go on, here are the 3 main assumptions I'm working on:
A) We view KISS as our most important Ally
B) We view KISS as our most serious end game competitor
C) We will invade Dnut territory as soon as we have Republic, and will fight them for land.

Given this – I think we should do a few things right away.

1) Make it clear to KISS that we love them – even though we're miffed over the slow-republic debacle. We will give them the tech necessary to get us both out of the Ancient Age together and as soon as possible. This is the spirit (if not the letter) of our agreement, and we value them as allies. We may need to reveal some of our tech dealings to KISS – so that we don't get caught hiding anything. We don't want them getting suspicious, since I'm about to propose a fairly serious double-cross.

2) Tell TNT that we view them as our best strategic partners. Tell them that we plan to invade Dnuts, tell them where we plan to invade, and tell them when we plan to invade. Work with them to coordinate a united offensive against the Dnuts.

3) Tell KISS that we're planning to invade the Dnuts (we can be vague on the timetable – tell them we're still debating it) and see if we can get them to help us in a 3 front war. They probably won't be interested. But we should tell them anyway. There's a chance they'll help – which would be great! But even if they don't, Dnuts will certainly go to KISS looking for help. We don't want KISS feeling surprised by our actions and then giving aid to the Dnuts.

4) Warn TNT that KISS will likely soon be invading their homeland, and suggest that they may want to take some pre-emptive steps to be ready for them. Tell TNT we're trying to get KISS to attack Dnuts instead of them.

5) Tell TNT that we have deals with KISS we cannot break – and therefore can't help them much with Tech – but we will do what we can - and we're optimistic that our help in a second front against Dnuts will be more valuable anyway.

6) Finalize our trade with Dnuts – but avoid making any long term promises. They'll hate us enough when we invade – we don't need any extra ill-will thanks to us breaking any agreements.

Hopefully this gives us a coherent game-plan to get ahead. We get goodwill with KISS by gifting them what they need to get out of the ancient age and sharing our plans with them. We pick up more land by being involved in a 2 front war (maybe 3 front?) against the Dnuts, and KISS suffers a bit at the hands of TNT (with our covert help).

What do you think?
Let's pick this apart!

peter grimes

Dec 01, 2005, 11:11 AM

First thought - I like it! Very devilish.

However, I think there is the issue of timing. We don't want to trigger a GA while in despotism, so all of this warring would wait until after we've got Republic.

What offensive units will we have?

Will Feudalism be our middle ages freebie, granting us knights?

Will we wait until we've got a few offensives ready to embark before sending our first settler?

Will Dnuts still be in their GA?

I like the overall picture you're describing (even though I am a builder, not a fighter). But, and this is exactly what I've been hoping to hammer out in the Golden Age thread, Is this DNUT offensive the best use of our Golden Age?

My gut says to use the GA to build aqueducts, courthouses, and marketplaces (if we don't already have them) but so far the voices seem to be in favor of war.

Our relationship with TNT must not be completely revealed to KISS. We should certainly explain our reasonings to KISS as to why we're helping them, and such; but privately with TNT we make sure they understand that we must seem a little aloof from eachother in KISS's eyes...

We could also offer TNT MapMaking in exchange for carrying out certain overseas operations. How unfortunate it would be if KISS's Iron kept getting pillaged!

Those are my first thoughts. But again, just to stress: I'd rather see us, the commercial and scientific ones, use our GA to pull ahead in money and research rather than kill of the dnuts.

fe3333au

Dec 01, 2005, 11:27 AM

As from Turn 70

Thought this could help ... remaining techs and their sources ... Monarchy is only one left.

KISS will give Republic in 15 turns
Nuts will give Polytheism in 8 turns
TNT will give Currency in ???

We propose that KISS research Construction
While we will agree to supply Currency and maybe Polytheism ?

General_W

Dec 01, 2005, 11:28 AM

We don't want to trigger a GA while in despotism, so all of this warring would wait until after we've got Republic.
Sorry if I was unclear. I did say in point "C" that the invasion won't happen till after Republic.

What offensive units will we have?
I see the initial stages of our war being defensive. Placing cities with Hoplites, and letting them come to us.
Knights and Pikemen can be used to take cities once we have a foothold.

Our relationship with TNT must not be completely revealed to KISS.
I don't think our relationship with TNT should be revealed AT ALL!! If we make a tech swap with them, KISS will have to know. I say we keep EVERYTHING else secret.

We could also offer TNT MapMaking in exchange for carrying out certain overseas operations. How unfortunate it would be if KISS's Iron kept getting pillaged!
If we could find a way to get TNT Map Making without KISS knowing – then this would be truly evil and wonderful

fe3333au

Dec 01, 2005, 11:41 AM

Thoughts ...

I am against war.

However, I would want MIA to be alligned with KISS to gang on one Battle Islander.

I don't trust TNT
> they started the conflict and are too pig headed to sue for peace.
> KISS have a strong hatred for them.
> Nuts have a strong hatred for them.

I would like a peacefull victory ... so I'd remove the aggressor ... which would be TNT.

I strongly fear that if we go against D-Nuts, that the best case scenario will see KISS alligned against TNT and neutral towards us. This will mean us against Nuts alone because KISS will be busy destroying TNT.

I will bring up subtley in chat with KISS and throow some scenarios around and we will see how they bite.

My best case scenario is to remain neutral ... but in that scenario getting GA will be exceedingly difficult ... therefore we need conflict ... wipe the greater evil and if Green Alliance is strong, then we have little to fear.

General_W

Dec 01, 2005, 11:58 AM

I hear what you're saying Fe – it's much more appealing to attack TNT, but consider…

1) TNT is very far away, and will be a long sail for us to get any units up there.
2) TNT is very unlikely to attack a Hoplite city (or hoplite anything) when they've got so many other enemies to choose from – meaning no Golden Age for us!
3) KISS and Dnuts will both become even stronger if we help them finish off TNT. They will both get more land and more cities from the conflict.

Only way I can see this working out for us is if we send few galleys with settlers on them (maybe 2?) and settle right up in the heart of TNT land. Maybe then TNT will attack us, and we can use our GA for peaceful things – since the war will be too far away for us to be realistically involved anyway.
Maybe we could declare war on TNT to be good sports – but just settle in the jungle while the war drags on. Send up a hoplite or 2 up to pillage as a sign of good faith, and leave it at that. This makes our Golden Age less likely, and I'm not totally convinced that settling the jungle will ultimately be worthwhile. If KISS is busy with a war overseas, then our settle efforts are probably better used here at home.

Fe: Would you feel betting if you could talk KISS into a 3v1 war against Dnuts?

I think the proposal you're advancing may keep us out of a serious war – but at what cost? At the end of the war-on-TNT, we'll find ourselves very far behind both Dnuts and KISS.

peter grimes

Dec 01, 2005, 01:48 PM

I also understand Fe's reluctance. But allow me to elaborate on something General_W just mentioned.

If TNT is eliminated, then KISS will have an open land into which they can dump the refuse from their settler factories. What's more, that land would be one galley turn away from their continent. That certainly is not going to help us achieve a space race victory.

But, if DNUTs are forced to make some room for us, with TNT helping us to clear some of the DNUT infestations out of our way, the we'll have more room to grow = = = more cities = = = more economic output = = = quicker access to space techs.

I think that's the strongest strategic argument for getting some room on DNUT's continent. Also, everyone seems to think that Mounted Warriors are going to mop up the immortals. So far, they seem to be correct. We can't let TNT die, so we need to bolster them so that they can effectively combat DNUTs for us, until we're ready to get into the fray.

fe3333au

Dec 01, 2005, 09:03 PM

Intel KISS Report
I refer you to this latest conversation post 13 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=3398751#post3398751)

As suspected ... KISS or a very large faction of them, will be ppushing to attack TNT ... every conversation that I've been involved in (and that is all but the first) when TNT is mentioned, they have always spoken about them as enemies and targets.

Bottom Line ... KISS Gaelic Swords WILL attack TNT as soon as they feel strategically ready !!!

This is the Fact ... this is the Future !!!

All Plans should be set with this scanario as a given ...

OK ... so what do we do?

Option A ... My Home is my Castle
I Assume stay at home and reinforce is NOT the option.

Option B ... TNT We're Dynamite :banana:
"My enemies friend is my enemy" ... quote of KISS Gaelic Sword talking to Nutter Horse Warrior as they stand atop the once majestic Acropolis, now undefined and red stained rubble.

Option C ... All for One
Then I would join with the other teams and carve up the north coastal area of Battle Isle ... concentrate settlement to the resource rich coast with a couple of strategic grabs inland, but leaving room for KISS to out expand us therefore becoming a perceived greater threat to Nuts.

Attacking a war hardened experienced force will be foolish ... KISS will unlikely come to our aid ... and we have NO offensive UU.

Diplomatically ... in order of importance and friendship

1. KISS ... stay true and open with some one upmanship play ... as we have been.
2. Nuts ... use them but do not antagonise
3. TNT ... use them, milk them :evil: ... after all they are already RIP

Option D ... Nut Cracker Suite :evil:
Involves us staying out of the TNT Trampling and attack Nuts when they are distracted ... this would have to be timed perfectly and in a Pearl Harbouresque manner ...

I am no military man ... so will eagerly watch this one if chosen.

Diplomacy will give no clue away ... and in fact give impression of TNT aggression.

I would perhaps think a Blitzkreig with Razing City option could be used by the first suicide wave ...

It would certainly weaken them enough for us to have better odds at pulling this one off.

Big decision time :salute:

Chamnix

Dec 02, 2005, 08:20 AM

C) We will invade Dnut territory as soon as we have Republic, and will fight them for land.

If by “invade” you mean settle their land, then I agree. I don’t know if we will be able to mount a real attack on them that soon. We will still have land to fill so I think Athens and EMP City should still be producing settlers, and we really need them to be turned over to military to fight effectively. Remember, Donuts will just be completing their Golden Age and probably have many Mounted Warriors. In any case, we may be better off goading Donuts into declaring on us so we get the war happiness.

We will give them the tech necessary to get us both out of the Ancient Age together and as soon as possible.

I have mixed feelings about this, but if we are going to do it, then we should tell KISS that ASAP so they don’t give TNT or Donuts anything else. Also, we should delay exiting the Ancient Age just long enough to make sure our half of the continent is free of barb camps.

Will Feudalism be our middle ages freebie, granting us knights?

Our freebie is random – and knights aren’t available until Chivalry, so we will not have knights very soon at all.

Is this DNUT offensive the best use of our Golden Age?

My gut says to use the GA to build aqueducts, courthouses, and marketplaces (if we don't already have them) but so far the voices seem to be in favor of war.

I don’t think either use of the GA is necessarily better or worse in general, but considering we are planning on starting a GA with a hoplite, we will be at war for our GA. Once we are at war, I think we should devote all our efforts to winning that war decisively.

As far as whether to attack TNT, attack Donuts or stay neutral… I think KISS will be gaining land on battle island, so if we want to stay competitive with them, then we need to gain land as well, so I don’t see neutrality as a viable long-term option.

2) TNT is very unlikely to attack a Hoplite city (or hoplite anything) when they've got so many other enemies to choose from – meaning no Golden Age for us!

I don’t see this as a problem – if we send a couple hoplites into their territory and start pillaging, they will have no choice but to attack them, but I tend to agree with General_W and peter grimes that the distance to TNT makes it so that we will have a hard time gaining much from fighting them.

Also, everyone seems to think that Mounted Warriors are going to mop up the immortals.

I think when TNT marches immortals near Donuts cities, then the Mounted Warriors will slaughter them. However, I think the immortals will have similar success if Donuts tries to move units near TNT towns.

Bottom Line ... KISS Gaelic Swords WILL attack TNT as soon as they feel strategically ready !!!

This is the Fact ... this is the Future !!!

Turn this around on KISS – MIA will attack Donuts as soon as we feel strategically ready. What is KISS going to do? Why does KISS get to choose the Green Alliance’s first opponent?

My conclusion – I think General_W has a great plan. I’m not sure about the timing because I think we want to expand peacefully as much as possible first, and we may want to wait until we are close to knights for war so we have an effective attacker, but the general outline looks like a great approach.

General_W

Dec 02, 2005, 10:41 AM

Ok – here's a proposal to start narrowing down some timelines for what we're talking about doing. I know there's not complete agreement on what to do – but I've tried to accommodate as many views as possible.

If nothing else – hopefully this framework will at least focus our discussion to be even more productive.

Here's my proposed timeline of events:

Turn 70 – Current:
Continue aggressive expansion at home
Prepare scouts and boats to go overseas

75 - Leaving Home:
Continue aggressive expansion at home
Galley, Horsemen, and AW Heron in position to sail overseas.
Warn TNT that we are working on a deal with KISS that will give KISS map making. Warn TNT that we have very good reason to believe that KISS and Dnuts will jointly invade them as soon as they KISS gets boats and some GallicSwords built.

80 - The New World:
Horse and Heron begin to explore Battle Island and pop huts.

85 - REPUBLIC:
Trade KISS for Republic. Most importantly, they now get Map Making.

Propose to KISS that we work jointly to destroy the Battle Islanders. Either: A) They help us defeat Dnuts first, then we turn on TNT or B) KISS takes TNT and we take Dnuts.

We can propose Option A first, and when KISS most likely rejects it – we say, "ok, lets each attack our nearest neighbor." (We don't want to agree to help them with TNT – we'll say it's too far away for us to help without a high-movement UU like they have!)

We suggest to Dnuts that KISS will soon be invading TNT, and that it may be a good time to get ready to invade them back. KISS will certainly talk to Dnuts anyway, and if we can stay friendly ourselves with the Nuts, then maybe we can get some good intelligence on when Dnuts sends their forces north for war.

90 – Research, Watch, and Prepare
Aim to get Feudalism and Knights
Continue filling our continent while KISS shifts resources to war footing.

Settle 1 city just South of the jungle on the Battle Isle- preferably to get wines. This will upset Dnuts – but hopefully not enough for war.

95 - Research, Watch, and Prepare
Aim to get Feudalism and Knights
Continue filling our continent while KISS shifts resources to war footing

100 - Research, Watch, and Prepare
Aim to get Feudalism and Knights
Continue filling our continent while KISS shifts resources to war footing

Settle Second city very near our first city on the Battle Isle- within a 3 square distance for single turn movement between the cities with roads. This will upset Dnuts even more – but again, hopefully not enough for war.

100+ - The coming War:
The timing from here depends on what our free tech is, and how quickly we can get Feudalism and Chivalry.

Once we have some good offensive units – we send Hoplites and our best attacker – timed with when Dnuts have sent a fresh batch to fight TNT, and try to catch them off guard. Sack, Pillage, Raze, Capture and hold what we can! Victory for MIA!!

Ok - looking forward to what you all have to say!

Chamnix

Dec 02, 2005, 12:13 PM

Looks great to me. The only real question I see outstanding is what units we will use to attack. This may belong in the Defense Ministry thread, but it really affects our timing as well, so I will put it here (besides, nobody has told me I posted something in the wrong thread in a while).

We keep talking about knights, but we may be better off going with Medieval Infantry. Unit stats:

Medieval Infantry: 4/2/1, cost 40 shields (90 gold to upgrade from 10-shield warrior), require iron, available with Feudalism.
Knights: 4/3/2, cost 70 shields (120 gold to upgrade from 30-shield horseman), require iron and horses, available with Chivalry.

Reasons to use MDI instead of Knights:

They are a lot cheaper, so we can build many more of them.
They are available sooner, so we can start the attack earlier (we almost certainly will not have to face pikemen, whereas with knights we might).
Hoplites will be our defending unit, so knights’ extra defense is irrelevant, and we get the same attack strength for 30 fewer shields.
Knights do not combine well with hoplites. If we move hoplites with the knights, we are wasting the knights extra movement point. If we send the knights out on their own, then we have a 70-shield 3-defense unit defending against 30-shield 3-attack Mounted Warriors which is a losing proposition.
We may be able to bypass Chivalry entirely.

Reasons to use Knights instead of MDI:

They are better all around units so we need fewer total units keeping our unit support down.
Knights upgrade to cavalry – the best unit in the game. MDI are practically useless once muskets are common.
Knights’ extra movement point means the attack can move faster or shift directions as the situation calls for it.
Knights can retreat against spears or pikes giving us fewer casualties.
Mounted warriors cannot retreat against knights giving Donuts more casualties.

Others?

I’m thinking we want some mounted units for defense (by defense, I mean stay in our towns but then attack approaching enemies before they get to our town), but our attack stack should be MDI with a few hoplites on top for defense.

General_W

Dec 02, 2005, 12:29 PM

Excellent summary Chamnix.
I've been wrestling over the same things in my mind, and just haven't had time to post it so nicely.

I’m thinking we want some mounted units for defense (by defense, I mean stay in our towns but then attack approaching enemies before they get to our town), but our attack stack should be MDI with a few hoplites on top for defense. I like this basic idea.

Why not get the attack rolling – with the main force being composed of MDI and Hoplites – then bring the Knights in from behind as soon as we get them.

I don't think we should skip Chivalry. Science is our advantage, and we should use it to maximum effect to crush the Nuts.

Besides – hopefully KISS will be researching peaceful techs we can trade for. Once we've got the Dnuts on the way out, we can focus on whatever line of research we want.

With World War I about to break out – I don't think we have to worry much about either Dnuts or TNT actually getting the Great Library – or at least not having it for long.

peter grimes

Dec 02, 2005, 01:24 PM

Here's one reason to use knights (like General_W mentioned: once we can roll them out)

1 Knight performs the function of two others (MDI+Hoplite ganged) There is a unit support issue here, but I have a feeling that we'll be able to field quite a sizeable army if need be due to our commercial trait.

fe3333au

Dec 09, 2005, 08:06 AM

Chat with the Prez :salute:

Couldn't think where to post this ... here is the best cos we spoke more than just about KISS.

fe3333au: Hi Mr Prez
Chamnix GA: howdy

The Currency deal with TNT
fe3333au: Well we got Currency
Chamnix GA: I saw ... you think it is OK to accept

< not waiting for answer already onto the next thought ... how rude of me > :rolleyes:
fe3333au: my first reaction to Nuts getting Lit was that they had traded it with someone else

Back to the Currency deal
fe3333au: to answer your question ... we already have due to us sending the deal ... tnt accepted and sent back ... actually I am not 100% on that .. want me to check?
Chamnix GA: we never clicked accept - we can turn down deal still
fe3333au: ok

< thinking >

fe3333au: however I think lets take it ... it does little to TNT's power
Chamnix GA: it's not TNT I'm worried about ... I just don't want KISS to claim we broke our deal
fe3333au: but we havn't as far as I see

Let's talk KISS
fe3333au: we have given them ample opportunity to get back to us ... and they have failed to do so
Chamnix GA: the deal requires KISS "approval"

Approval is defined how exactly :mischief:
Chamnix GA: You think silence is approval, i'm just not sure since the last convos they seemed cranky
fe3333au: no feedback is interpreted as no concern expressed ... I hear what you are saying but ATM (At the Moment) I don't care ...

... and here's why KISS have bad karma
fe3333au: Tubby made big slip when he said that they are going to sell off republic to others as well
Chamnix GA: yeah
fe3333au: but Daghie is different and calm ... and I have yet to talk to Whomp

Military Strength
Chamnix GA: you noticed they are strong to us now ...
fe3333au: Yes ... but they could be gearing up on getting units ready to scout ... so they need tough guys to remain
Chamnix GA: you are right, but it is a very dangerous game
fe3333au: sure but fun ;)

About our deal with KISS and how Nuts have changed it
fe3333au: The numbers show that the deal we offered is fair ... now however we have to research Poly or Construction our selves ... that makes it fairer ... from KISS prospective

Watch out !!! ... a whole new What If to scramble our plans
Chamnix GA: i'm still hoping we will pop at least one
fe3333au: Wow what if we pop Republic

< can't deal with that so suggest better to hold off >
fe3333au: I would hold and pop huts once we are in middle ages

< Game won't allow >
Chamnix GA: we can't get middle age techs from huts
fe3333au: really ?? ... didn't know that
Chamnix GA: pretty sure - there's an article in the Civ 3 War academy - probability of goody huts. ... I think that's in there
fe3333au: I recall getting tech when in middle ages ... but it may have been unresearched ancient tech
Chamnix GA: just checked - the article definitely says no middle age techs ... it could be wrong though
fe3333au: No probably correct cos those guys would have tested ...

Presidential Perspective on KISS :salute:
fe3333au: Why do you think KISS are pissed off?
Chamnix GA: we asked for a lot ... them to research construction while we did nothing
fe3333au: I think thay see us as being more proactive then they would like ... they want TNT an easy target ... and will leave Nuts to us
Chamnix GA: yeah - they were definitely happier when they were outexpanding us dramatically ... since we have been catching up, we are more of a threat
fe3333au: yeah

Damned GSL issue
fe3333au: also the GSL issue ... that was very poor thing to bring up ... almost brattish
Chamnix GA: agreed

Pop strategy ... damn he's good :thumbsup:
Chamnix GA: as far as popping republic ... we can prevent that by setting research to republic
fe3333au: good strategy
Chamnix GA: but I was thinking we might want to set research to poly to max our chances of getting construction

< Intel for KISS ... to stop us getting Republic >
fe3333au: I will mention this to KISS if it is appropriate to do so ... mention the pop strategy

Poly or Construction ... aye that be the question
fe3333au: So we still supply poly to KISS as per the deal proposed?
Chamnix GA: i think we supply anything we get to KISS
fe3333au: I was thinking Construction ... but your way is better it will stop Nuts usurping our Republic deal

Next KISS info to impart
Chamnix GA: we tell kiss we have currency
fe3333au: I will also send Whomp an e-mail that I want to talk to him ... yes as per the written document
Chamnix GA: we will research a remaining tech, but we are waiting to pop before researching ... see if you can find out if KISS has any huts left too

About exploration on our fair verdant land
fe3333au: The only location would have been northwest tip ... which is where Ares Athens should go ... before KISS get pissed and close borders
Chamnix GA: can he still get there?
fe3333au: the top worrior has black directy south ... but another guy can clear that in 3 moves heading northeast ... or the guy with Flaxon Musk
Chamnix GA: since we can't enter KISS border, I thought the NW corner might already be off limits to us
fe3333au: nothing written and as long as we respect boarders then ok ... they will certainly ask us to leave if they are pissed off

Tension with KISS ... a Foreign Minister's prospective ;)
fe3333au: The tension started with KISS establishing an embassy on us ... without prior discussion ... that was Tubby
Chamnix GA: i think that bothered you more than anyone else :p ... i only cared that they weren't using their gold on research
fe3333au: yeah I'm big on embassy ... but more so in this game ... cos you could set a model for all capitals and we can calculate the time things can be built ... Good that Athens is settler factory
Chamnix GA: i think we have a pretty good idea of their capital just from our boat sailing by

< A beautiful two headed thing >
fe3333au: Daghie was saying that he thought that KISSMIA would be acting as one ... and was dissapointed that things have come to this ... But I think that our relationship has changed with KISS and now ... once I mention the new deal with us researching poly
Chamnix GA: i don't think our relationship is bad ...
fe3333au: we will be treated with a little more respect ... we were considered poor cousins
Chamnix GA: i agree - we need to tell them that we will research again ... that will make them less cranky

Direct message to Whomp
fe3333au: I will mention that in my Whomp e-mail as an aside ... I don't want to sent to KISS directly as that becomes more official
Chamnix GA: good idea

No urgency
Chamnix GA: we will wait until hut popping anyway to see what we get ... and they still have 10-12 turns on republic so there is no rush
fe3333au: I love the 34gp per turn that we get ... we can then slooow research poly
Chamnix GA: we probably don't want to go too slow - we want Feudalism fairly soon ... but it will be good to have a cushion when we get to republic ... unit support will be ugly at first

Feudalism threw me ???
fe3333au: is construction required to enter middle ages?
Chamnix GA: yes ... construction and poly are all that's left
fe3333au: so it is all dependent on when we get construction from KISS ... cos we will be finished with poly sooner than KISS will construction
Chamnix GA: if we want to go faster, we should do construction and let KISS do poly ... that will make them happier too

Don't make decision yet ... but I want us to do Poly due to Nut factor
Chamnix GA: but I think we should wait to decide until the huts are popped
fe3333au: so I guess we can time our research to correspond with KISS so we can trade as soon as we get and don't waste a turn
Chamnix GA: good idea
fe3333au: Problem with Poly is that they could get it from Nuts
Chamnix GA: either of us could ... but if they want currency then they should not trade with nuts
fe3333au: I don't want to give Nuts anymore tech as they are way infront of TNT
Chamnix GA: agreed

About TNT Research strategy
Chamnix GA: do we know what TNT is researching ... maybe construction ...
fe3333au: depends I'd go for Monachy
Chamnix GA: could be, but they need poly first
fe3333au: what benefits in the war do they get from construction ... maybe trading us with something they want
Chamnix GA: they could build the Great Wall
fe3333au: Yes
Chamnix GA: that seems to be their plan (trading)
fe3333au: I'd think they are going for Lit
Chamnix GA: they went for currency for no reason except to trade
fe3333au: yes ... strange ... but good for us :)

Trade options with TNT ... What if scenario
Chamnix GA: if they get construction, they might be able to get lit from us
fe3333au: That is something we would definitely have to discuss with KISS
Chamnix GA: of course, but TNT doesn't know that ... they might think we will trade

Another Game mechanism question
fe3333au: one thing ... if you are reaserching a tech and then somebody gets it ... does your research beaker cost go down
Chamnix GA: yes
fe3333au: so tnt reseaching construction will benefit kiss :lol:
Chamnix GA: right
fe3333au: I like that

Absent friends
fe3333au: so how long is Gen_W away for?
Chamnix GA: i think he will be back Sat
fe3333au: i see i thought he was going for a while
Chamnix GA: 1 week I think
fe3333au: thats good ... cos basically it is you, me and grimsey atm ... with occasional C_H
Chamnix GA: i know - hope Mel is doing ok
fe3333au: the storms are over ... in fact 1 day of news

< Then spoke of personal weather scenarios ... Me lightning and fire, He snowstorms and road blockages >

peter grimes

Dec 09, 2005, 05:26 PM

Allow me to offer a few thoughts on our current situation with KISS viz-a-viz TNT (and DNUT, for that matter).

Right now, there is a common priority for both KISS and MIA, regardless of KISSMIA: We both need to get out of the Ancient Age as soon as possible, while at the same time putting as large a tech lead as possible between us (KISS and MIA) and the BattleIslanders. This must be a guiding principle for the both of us as we play the next dozen turns.

We are going to give KISS any ancient age tech they require to get out of the ancient age as long as we continue to be partners in the Middle Ages. I'm not suggesting that we threaten to withhold any techs, I'm just pointing out that KISSMIA is in a better position to eliminate the other teams if we work together. KISS working against TNT while MIA works on DNUTS won't be nearly as effective. Let's neither of us forget how DNUTS was able to play us off eachother during the early trades. At the same time, as soon as KISSMIA has received the required techs to enter the next age, there is no longer any importance to keeping our relationship hidden. We will give KISS all the techs they need, they will give us all the techs they have. If anyone else asks us about it, the answer is clear: KISS was able to get the most techs from us. KISS needs to know this. We will not withhold any techs as long as they are prepared to work within the KISSMIA framework into the middle ages.

Likewise, KISS should allow us to acquire techs that the both of us need if the trade will allow both of us to leave the others behind earlier. I really don't understand why KISS has a problem with us giving TNT those three low techs in exchange for Currency; we need to get KISS to understand that that trade allows KISS to not have to research Currency themselves, and at the same time allows MIA flexibility of researching Poly or Construction.... which, of course, KISS will now receive all the sooner.

The last potential trades will involve MIA receiving Construction or Polytheism from DNUT or TNT. There is, of course, no guarantee on this, but we should really try and get something to happen. MIA and KISS should have all the AA techs in hand by the time KISS finishes Republic. We need to coordinate with KISS on what MIA researches next. I love the idea of just turning off the tech spigot, but that's just unrealistic. We risk angering our partner over something not worth the conflict: Just as Whomp described the Great Spice Crisis. Not worth the conflict. We will be able to run sufficient gold profits while researching at a good clip, so let's just get the research done. Asking KISS what they'd like us to research (after the faux-research on Republic for hut-popping necessity) will help smooth over some ruffled feathers. KISS should have explicit shared control over whatever deal MIA arranges to secure Polytheism or Construction.

There is the risk that MIA will not recieve Polytheism or Construction from a trade. We need to talk with KISS and discuss the best way to proceed if that happens.

I don't want this to come across too strong, but the hawks that have been chatting from the KISS team are really worrying me. Our teams can't afford to make the mistakes the teams on the other continent have made. We will both the better off by continuing to work together. It is on US to make them see that.

peter grimes

Dec 09, 2005, 05:35 PM

One more quick thought: What if we didn't set research to Republic before popping, and we popped Republic?

We'd have Republic, we could immediately give Rep and Maps and everythign, and then we'd both be able to pursue \Poly and Const....

Chamnix

Dec 09, 2005, 06:59 PM

I really don't understand why KISS has a problem with us giving TNT those three low techs in exchange for Currency; we need to get KISS to understand that that trade allows KISS to not have to research Currency themselves, and at the same time allows MIA flexibility of researching Poly or Construction.... which, of course, KISS will now receive all the sooner.

I think what annoyed KISS was that we were giving up techs for Currency instead of researching it ourselves and not intending to research anything else instead. I think if we had said that after this deal, we would be able to go to Construction to finish the age, then they wouldn't have had any problem with the Currency trade.

But you are absolutely right about this not being worth fighting over - we need to continue to cooperate (for now....)

One more quick thought: What if we didn't set research to Republic before popping, and we popped Republic?

We'd have Republic, we could immediately give Rep and Maps and everythign, and then we'd both be able to pursue \Poly and Const....

It wouldn't be a disaster, but considering all the beakers KISS has invested in Republic already, Republic is really the cheapest of the 3 techs in terms of research left to do. We would prefer to get the most expensive tech (Construction) instead.

peter grimes

Dec 11, 2005, 06:29 PM

Check out the F11 stats: we're #1 in Productivity!

This means that we're out-producing the Golden Age civs... or civ, I don't know if we've confirmed that TNT is in a GA.

In any case, I'm sure the bean-counters over there are worrying about whose in front, and they will probably not guess it's us.

Unless the #1 spot is a tie.....?

Chamnix

Dec 12, 2005, 05:48 AM

Productivity includes food which is not affected by their GA, but it is still very impressive that we are #1 (or tied for #1). I'm also thrilled with this stat:

MIA % of World Population - 27 ... TKR KISS - 27

To me, the most important early game statistic is number of citizens - for a while we were wallowing around 16% of the world's population, and now we have as many citizens as the leaders. It may not stay that way, but at least we are in range.

peter grimes

Dec 12, 2005, 06:34 AM

Yes - I've been watching our %WorldPopulation climb steadily over the last 10 turns or so... Along with our Land Area. Sometimes I forget that a settler and a worker being produced by us will make it look like someone else is leaping ahead (relatively).

fe3333au

Dec 12, 2005, 07:50 AM

I must congratulate our team ... this is indeed exciting ... I am happy to be skating this learning curve :goodjob:

I wonder if this is causing some of the problems with KISS ... that we seem to be keeping up with them ... it must be confronting to see every other turn, the light green stain slowly spreading on the map. :eek:

peter grimes

Dec 12, 2005, 08:23 AM

This also makes me think we should drop the complaints about non-parity of traits. They may be aggies, but we're keeping pace (actually gaining!) with them. They won't be able to keep pace scientifically, (another source of tension), and their religious is only going to help their economics.

Let's remain humble, and keep our wits about us so we don't lose the momentum! I guess Chamnix's subliminal messaging is working :)

settlerssettlerssettlerssettlerssettlerssettlers

fe3333au

Dec 12, 2005, 09:17 AM

KISS Settlers ... Keeping it in the Family
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/settlers.jpg

MIA Family ... Vibrant, Loyal and Playfull
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/SettlerHo.JPG

General_W

Dec 12, 2005, 11:39 AM

General_W

Dec 13, 2005, 11:40 AM

Ok, I believe I've read everything I missed. It may take a couple days to get all the way back into the swing of things – so please excuse me if I've failed to fully digest something that happened while I was gone.

I'd like to kick off my full return with another massive post on strategy. Please bear with me.

State of the World:
TNT: Still at war with Dnuts. In a slightly less aggressive position now, but still building immortals and looking for places to strike the Dnuts. TNT is interested in trading with us, and views us a potential ally.

Dnuts: Still at war with TNT. They believe they can easily handle TNT, but whether they realize it our not, TNT has confined their expansion to south of the jungle area. Dnuts are also interested in trading tech and other items with us – but have proved themselves to be very cleaver about double-dealing and are aggressively working on trading with KISS also.

KISS: Still our #1 ally, but the KISS relationship has soured a bit of late. We're ahead of them on science, and KISS has no doubt noticed that we are catching them in population and land area. We're making KISS nervous, and they are demanding unreasonable things like us giving them all of our tech in advance of getting Republic with NO good explanation for why.
KISS has made it clear they intended to go after TNT as soon as they get Map Making from us and they are not interested in joining us in a fight with the Dnuts.

World Technology: We're most advanced, we expect to trade with KISS very soon for Republic – giving them most of the other Ancient Age techs, and we have good possibilities to trade for the other AA techs we need to be in the Medieval age here very soon. Great Library is still a threat, but nothing concrete yet. When KISS and MIA advance to the Medieval Age, the other teams will still be at least several techs away as long as KISS doesn’t do anything surprising.

(If I've got any of this wrong, please let me know – as I will be basing the rest of this post on this view of world affairs)

Proposed MIA game plan:
(Note: this is very similar to the timeline I proposed in post #176 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=3401005&postcount=176)– with some modification due to comments and the evolving world situation)
* Try to hold KISS to our KISSMIA alliance into the Middle ages.

* Try to lock KISS down into not doing any trades without consulting us (and for sure don't trade republic!)

* Propose that KISS make the beeline for Education (as an insurance policy if a BattleIslander comes up with the Great Library). We don't want to do this path, because we want to get an early jump on the military techs to go kick some BattleIsland butt! If KISS don't want to go the education route – then we can just suggest smashing any city that tries to build the Great Library. (we both may want to do this anyway – but if we can put KISS on the peaceful route while we get a jump start on military techs – then so much the better!)

* Stop trading with Dnuts right now. Try to get KISS to agree to not trade anything with them either. We want them to stagnate in the Ancient Era for as long as possible.

* Once we get Republic switch to it immediately.

* Build Settlers like mad people until we reach the Medieval Age.

* Shortly after we advance to the Medieval Age we make a full push to build MedInfantry and (as possible) Knights. We can maybe keep 1 settler factory (or alternate our settler factories between settlers and units) if we still have space we need to fill. Otherwise – we make a heavy effort to get a big force asap – even if that means building a few non-veteran units. If all goes well, we'll be getting a bunch of cities without needing to build settlers anyway!

- Ok obviously this is a pretty aggressive strategy, but I think this is our best chance to do this. Before I left, it seemed like most people were pretty much on-board with this idea, but I thought now that we're getting closer, I'd bring it up again with some modifications so we can discuss it some more.
I know Fe is the most hesitant about this – but I think we've pretty well agreed that neutrality/fortress island is a losing option, and a war with TNT helps KISS and Dnuts way more than us… leaving us no other good options)

Let's discuss!

Chamnix

Dec 13, 2005, 12:37 PM

Great to have you back, General. :salute:

I think you have the situation described completely. Unfortunately, I have been growing more skeptical of the realism of being able to carry out a successful Battle Island assault early in the Middle Ages. As I see it, there are 3 ways to win a war:

1. Superior Tactics – while I have no doubt the most brilliant tactical minds are in the service of MIA, the fact that we will be fighting on their turf means that the Donuts will have all the tactical advantages.

2. Superior Numbers – we are at a huge disadvantage here also. We are proposing to fight as a Republic against someone who may still be in Despotism or may end up in Monarchy. We have mostly towns and will have few cities. If we are building aqueducts, then we are not building as many units. They will be able to support many more units than we can. Also, if the reports have any truth to them, neither side has been losing many units lately, and you can bet that both have been building more. It will be a long time before we are even close in sheer numbers.

3. Superior Technology – this is essentially what we are basing our attack on. We will be using MDI and hoplites vs. Mounted Warriors and spearmen. We should win a majority of battles to offset their superior numbers. However, I am concerned that because of their tactical edge (they will be attacking our units which is just a 3 vs. 3 battle) that their probable vastly superior numbers will wear us down. I’m not sure we will be able to make much progress before massive war weariness sets in.

So, what’s the alternative? Our advantages right now are much earlier Republic, a peaceful neighbor, and more luxuries secure. All of these add up to a major long-term edge – while they build units, we build infrastructure. We have the Republic income advantage – if they switch to Republic, they have the war weariness disadvantage. They may spend money on upgrades or luxuries, we can spend ours on science.

I can see racing ahead technologically, waiting to attack until we reach cavalry, and quite possibly only having to face pikes and maybe knights (no muskets). Cavalry open up our tactical possibilities because of their extra movement point.

I think now we will have a small technological edge, but they have all the other war advantages. Over time, I see our technological edge increasing whereas their advantages will gradually dissipate as cavalry neutralize their tactics and our unit support increases.

We know KISS is planning an earlier assault. Will they succeed better than we would? Possibly, because they will attack TNT, and Donuts will attack TNT, and we will not open up a second front against Donuts.

I would propose that we build a moderate military and keep them mostly home for now (other than a few explorers). Instead of going for an early assault, we race further ahead in research and keep an eye on the other continent. If KISS’ attack is rebuffed, fantastic. Our infrastructure will be superior, and we will be better placed to gain more than KISS on the late Middle Ages assault. If KISS starts to succeed and gains a few towns on Battle Island, then we ramp up our military production, give KISS 10 turns notice, and attack on our home island. KISS will be unable to hold their overseas possessions against our TNT allies, and the game will be decided on our homeland.

Awaiting your responses…

peter grimes

Dec 13, 2005, 07:03 PM

are we able to post yet?....

EDIT: Apparently so :)

Well, I'm glad that FE and I aren't the only ones who are loath to see a war... I'd really rather put time and resources into infrastructure and wealth than units.

Since it's pretty well agreed that we won't be settling over there immediately I'd like us to wait and see what KISS does. This gives us the advantage of not appearing to be 'land hungry'. Both DNUT and TNT will see KISS as a territorial threat, rather than us.

We will need to figure out how to keep TNT from being squashed, though. That will be tricky, as we can't be seen by KISS to be aiding and abetting their opponent.

Glad to have you back, General. I really enjoy reading and thinking about your well-structured strategems.

EDIT EDIT: x-post with the General himself :)

General_W

Dec 13, 2005, 07:06 PM

Chamnix! Don't lose heart now! The war hasn't even begun!
(wink, wink)

Ok – as always – you make good points. The war would indeed be dicey,
and we would be relying heavily on our technological superiority.
Overseas wars are hard to fight in all eras – but don't forget, it's
still better to have the war on their turf then it is to have a war on
our turf.

You make a convincing argument on why we should hold off on attacking
the Dnuts – BUT - I've got a few concerns and comments about your
alternative plan.

Regarding the plan to attack KISS if things go well for them against TNT
I think this is a terrible idea.
10 turns is a VERY long time for a highly skilled and competent team
like KISS to react to any threat. If we ever attack them, it had
better be a surprise of epic proportions. (IE – they get an e-mail
declaration of war and then they open their save and find out we
captured 3 border towns and landed troops in their core.) In 10 turns
KISS can sue for peace with TNT, sail troops home,
buy/pop-rush/upgrade forces, and move forces into key strategic
positions to blunt any attack. They also get time to plan
counter-assaults and time to try to figure out what we're coming at
them with and plan accordingly.
In addition to lost units, lost resources spent on war instead of
economy, and God-forbid, lost cities… war on our continent means
pillaged resources and countless lost worker turns due to the dire
need to protect them.
Bottom line: bloody bloody bloody.

If we're willing to break our word and sneak attack KISS – then ok. If
we hit them hard and fast enough, this could be a fine plan. Our
reputation is shot, but it'd be a killer move. KISS might never
recover.

If we're not willing to break our word (personally, I'd rather not) –
then we really should wait till our treaty expires. Even then, I'm not
sure we want a war with them. It'd really be to our advantage to try
to beat them in a peaceful way.

Ok – I think I've exhaustively made my point there.

As for the plan to attack in the Late Middle Ages:
This is very appealing. But only if we don't wait too long. The middle
ages offer some of the best wonders, some great buildings, and lots of
techs we'll really want to have. If we spend time getting them though
– we'll squander our chance to have Cavalry a long time before Dnuts
get Muskets – and then we've lost our best chance at an "easy" war.

Therefore – I'd like to add a couple things to Chamnix's proposed plan
before I think it would be truly workable…

1) Agree with KISS to shut the BattleIslanders out of tech. (maybe 1
or 2 more AA trades, but then that's it)

2) Try to get KISS to research peaceful techs while we get
militaristic ones – and then swap. (best of both worlds! Maybe we
could even work out a deal on who gets which wonders? Fe?) Due to the
war, KISS will probably research much slower than us, but that's ok –
we just need to make it VERY CLEAR – KISS doesn't get our military
techs till we get their peaceful techs. If it becomes obvious that no
one will get the Great Library (see point #3 below) then this caveat
is less important and we could trade KISS some of our techs on
"credit."

3) Sign a deal to smash any city that builds the great Library. (Maybe
this deal could even be public… would serve as a deterrent to building
it, and Ambassador Meritorious Mr. Fe may be able to convince Dnuts
and TNT to sign on! We could tell them both that it's their best
chance to get a 3 on 1 war with their enemy… if they other guy breaks
the treaty and builds the GL) This is VERY important. If Dnuts get the
great library… our whole war plan is in trouble. We need to be sure
that no one builds it, or if they do, they lose it quickly.

4) Let KISS have their war with TNT while we race to Military
Tradition (and Cavalry!)

then let the carnage begin!

What do you think?

Spoiler: Another warning against staying neutral…
Praying to Meleet that TNT whoops KISS's butt and the war drags on and
we can play peaceful the whole game is appealing – but we haven't had
much luck in getting those prayers answered with "goody huts" and I'll
wager it won't help us here either. It's possible TNT will do
surprisingly well – but eventually a KISS/Dnut double team will take
TNT down. When the dust settles, it'll be a 3 player game with 2 large
militarized empires and 1 smaller wealthy and built up empire. Sadly,
if history is any lesson, the larger empires won't just send their
military home to their families. They'll send them to Greece to take
our lovely cities. (KISS may be honorable, and go after Dnuts first –
but that only delays the inevitable. With a larger military and an
established foothold on the BattleIsle, KISS will be just a hop-skip,
and a jump away from a domination win.)

I know Chamnix is NOT advocating this. Just wanted to be clear that I
don't think pursing total peace is a good option at this point.

Chamnix

Dec 13, 2005, 07:50 PM

Regarding the plan to attack KISS if things go well for them against TNT
I think this is a terrible idea.

Don't hold back - tell me what you really think ;)

In 10 turns
KISS can sue for peace with TNT, sail troops home,
buy/pop-rush/upgrade forces, and move forces into key strategic
positions to blunt any attack.

Part of the plan is that we tell TNT what we are doing. If TNT knows we are attacking and KISS will have to pull troops home, then TNT should not accept peace. Either KISS' forces will be split or TNT will recapture KISS' towns on Battle Island.

Certainly KISS will be prepared, and it will not be an easy war, but it is an even war, and we could even have a slight edge. Their offense - Gallic Swords - 3/2/2 40 shields. Our offense MDI - 4/2/1 40 shields. If the fighting is done on the border in the jungle, then their extra movement point is negated. Their defense - pikemen 1/3/1 30 shields. Our defense - hoplites 1/3/1 20 shields.

I agree the war will be tough, but fighting someone who wasted shields conquering towns they can't keep still sounds easier than fighting overseas against a war-government civ with massive troop quantities.

peter grimes

Dec 13, 2005, 08:55 PM

I had written a more analytical response to these revived strategy posts, but there was something wrong either with the forums or my work computer. I'll only have time now to give a brief recap:

Either KISS or MIA will shoot to Education. The other shoots to Gunpowder. General_W's incorporation of a Great Library Doomesday Device is brilliant, so let's make sure KISS is onboard with that. Certainly, it's not perfect insurance, but it's better than nother. The goal is to mitigate the effects of teh great library as quickly as possible. That means NO TRADING OF TECHS until Education. But once one of us has hit education, then we KISSMIA can trade up with eachother.

But basically, General_W's emending of Chamnix's "Cavalry Cavalcade" plan is the best one yet. That's the one I can see us working towards. It may not come to pass quite like that, but it has an inherent Flexibility that will be rewarding.

fe3333au

Dec 14, 2005, 01:06 AM

I think we really need to establish embasies very soon.

1. We have the gold
2. It will allow us to build models of the other team's capitals.
3. It will also show us when a war is ceased ... the rules indicate that fake wars are a finable offence.
4. We can see (I think) how war wearyness if effecting these teams.

Neutralise Great Library
In the last chat with Whomp it has been muted that one team rush for Education ... I suggested us as we can get there quicker ... I also suggested that there would only be tech swapping after Education had been discovered ... I also suggested that the Battle Island teams be left in technology isolation .... these things have yet to be agreed upon.

Honour of Agreement
Regarding sneak attack ... <deep breath> ... I personally on behalf of MIA have given our word that 10 turns will be the minimum warning to ending the Alliance ... I will not condone us breaking that agreement ...

I actually feel very strongly about this issue, and if it is decided to break such a deal, I will send a warning to our intended targets ... and then I guess be forced to step down and await diciplinary action :cringe:

I appreciate that no-one is seriously suggesting this option, however I just have to write down my feelings on this. :( Sorry, for me it is just not how I wish to play the game ... Bending the constraints of an agreement is allowed .. smashing the deal is not.

If it happens to us with an agreement being dishonoured ... then I'm sure things will be 'discussed' on UN ... I also expect that the mods will 'fine' the offending team.

General_W

Dec 14, 2005, 02:16 AM

@Chamnix - I'm a little confused.
To me, your first post (#192) seemed to advocate Attacking Dnuts as the #1 plan, with attacking KISS as a fallback plan.

but your next post (#195) seems to advocate attacking KISS either way.
fighting someone who wasted shields conquering towns they can't keep still sounds easier than fighting overseas against a war-government civ with massive troop quantities.
Could you please clarify for me? Are you now suggesting that we leave the Battleislanders alone and just fight on our home turf? If so, this is a big change from what we've previously talked about, and before I write a whole book on the subject, I want to make sure I understand what you're advocating.

@Fe: It doesn’t sound like anyone on our team wants to break our word. (I certainly don't) - but I'm not sure I understand why you think breaking an agreement will result in a "fine" from the mods. It's not exploiting the game engine to promise peace and then sneak attack someone. In every multiplayer game I've ever played, someone always promises peace and then sneak-attacks someone else. Frankly, I pretty much expect it to happen. It's not cheating - it's part of the game. Lord knows the computer has done it to me enough times.
The penalty for breaking your word is that no one ever trusts you in the game again (unless they get really desperate). No further penalties needed.

@PeterG: Sounds like we're pretty much on the same page.

@ All: If we do make a "beeline to education" agreement with KISS, I'd like to strongly suggest that KISS makes the beeline while we go military... unless we're abandoning all dreams of conquest at home and abroad.

fe3333au

Dec 14, 2005, 03:17 AM

I doubt that KISS will agreee to go for Education ... they already feel slighted that while they were stuck on Republic, we were free to merrily trade away ... and unfortunately we even traded with their target.

This agreement is different, no team can trade with anyone for fear that the MA techs will be automatically gifted through the Great Library.

This is the only reason I sugested this ... cos both teams are somewhat restricted until the Great Library threat is neutralised.

We will also have a set of quotas associated to our deal ... stopping KISS from slow burning while we neutrally (?) race to Education.

peter grimes

Dec 14, 2005, 06:12 AM

I think KISS have made it pretty clear they aren't into slow-burning in the future. I wouldn't harp on that too much. Besides, if they are free to research anything they want until Education, it's in their best interest to keep science maxed out.

@All The Warmongers: I understand, as per a certain person's signature, that we should be prepared for war as a means of keeping our security. I also understand that no one is proposing a timleline or countdown to an attack. But sometimes these debates read like a playbook: Build up army, then attack. That misses the point. It should be: Build up Army, then if the situation is the one that suits us best attack.

As long as these discussions center on the italics, hashing out the optimum timing and locations for a war, I'm fine with it. But I don't think that we should automatically decide that there Must be a war by a certain date.

If KISS is becoming too powerful, that will be readily evident and can't possibly happen overnight. We'll have some time to prepare if we need to; as long as our home defenses are established. That, of course, is a primary near-term goal.

As for who beelines, I can see advantages and disadvantages for both teams in either situation. The biggest advantage we have in doing EDU is that we are in control of the pace. We will know exactly how long it's going to take, and can try and hasten it. It's very tough to convince an ally to make sacrifices to speed up a trade with you. If KISS does the 'Military' track to Guns, their incentive is that they want to really slam TNT as soon as they have gunpowder. They are already chomping at the bit. It wouldn't surprise me if they send a GS over there to start a GA to get them to guns even sooner!....

Which makes me think we really have to set off our GA pretty shortly. By the time Guns come around, our Hoplites will be obsolete. But, if we send one over now, and have him start pillaging a few tasty resources, we'll get into a Golden Age to get us to EDU even sooner.

EDIT: But not until after we get into Republic, of course :)

Chamnix

Dec 14, 2005, 06:27 AM

@General_W - I'm not entirely sure what I am advocating either :crazyeye: I think I was posting with the intention of defending the possibility of attacking KISS if they started doing too well on Battle Island. However, if I post long enough, I may end up convincing myself (even if I can't convince anyone else) that attacking KISS may be better in any case.

I guess I'm not sure why you think attacking KISS is a terrible idea regardless of circumstances. I know you posted that you hope we can win without ever fighting KISS, but do you believe that is possible? If we are going to fight KISS, is there going to be a better time than MDI + hoplites vs. GS and pikes while they have vulnerable towns on the other continent?

I really have to put more thought into this too, but the fact that I haven't thought things through yet isn't going to keep me from posting ;)

@fe3333au - It looks like we have unanimous (or near unanimous) agreement not to break our word, but I am still very disappointed by your comments. We are a team, and if we decide as a team to break our word, I really hope we could do it without being sabotaged by our own teammate. I understand that you have been our spokesperson so you may feel that if reflects on your honesty in particular, but once the threads are opened at the end of the game, it will be clear who supported the backstabbing and who did not.

This is probably a non-issue, but I just thought I'd write my feelings down on it too...

Regarding who should research to Education - I think we would prefer KISS do it, and they would prefer we do it, but the reality is I think it will be determined by what free tech we get - if we get Monotheism then we go to Education, and if we get Feudalism or Engineering, then KISS goes to Education.

The goal is to make sure that the Great Library holder only gets Monotheism, Theology, and Education as free Middle Age techs. Consider if we get Feudalism as our free tech, then we go for Education - what does KISS do? They research Engineering while we do Monotheism, but then what do they do while we research Theology and Education? They can't do anything else without Feudalism, and we don't want to give them Feudalism yet because then the Great Library holder will get it unnecessarily. Similarly if we get Engineering.

fe3333au

Dec 14, 2005, 06:36 AM

I'm going to bring up an old story ... settle on Battle Isle.

I see this happening just before Republic so that the city can rush Walls, Barracks and Harbour for gold.

Site Pre-requisite in order of preference.

1. On the coast ... a short distance from the a feeder city on our continent ... to allow easy reinforcement and heal units ... it becomes a base of operations.

2. Have wines ... this will add to MIA's overall luxuries ... AND it could also be an incentive to aggression which would goad the Battle Islanders to assisting us into a GA. :D

3. Have fish or food producing land tiles available ... to assist in growth of the city.

Military Strategy ... while the Nut (or TNT) forces react by sending units to deal with our incursion ... our main and hidden sea-borne assult commences :evil: from an unexpected location.

peter grimes

Dec 14, 2005, 07:12 AM

@Chamnix:
If we are going to fight KISS, is there going to be a better time than MDI + hoplites vs. GS and pikes while they have vulnerable towns on the other continent?

KISS have indicated that they are waiting for Gunpowder before landing an assault force. So, that kind of means that they won't be doing anything rash for 20+ turns, plus time to train/upgrade units. However, who's to say they won't change their mind and send units over just after the change into Republic?

The goal is to make sure that the Great Library holder only gets Monotheism, Theology, and Education as free Middle Age techs. Consider if we get Feudalism as our free tech, then we go for Education - what does KISS do? They research Engineering while we do Monotheism, but then what do they do while we research Theology and Education? They can't do anything else without Feudalism, and we don't want to give them Feudalism yet because then the Great Library holder will get it unnecessarily. Similarly if we get Engineering.

This paragraph is all we need to present to KISS to discuss who researchs which path. Personally, I don't see anything wrong with us researching Education. There's a certain symmetry to it: we're scientific, of course we should do it :)

But I still have those little fits of paranoia where I feel a 'so long in 10' email about to show up. But whatever. One of us will do EDU, the other will do Gunpowder. If we're doing EDU we just want to make sure we're doing it a fast as greekly possible.

I really like General_W's idea of the Great Library Doomesday Device. It will only work if both the BattleIslanders are able to build it. This opens up the posibility of one final trade, but it would be with TNT... I don't think KISS is going to like that.

From KISS' POV: TNT doesn't have Lit. TNT doesn't have the possibility of building the Great Library. Dnut do have lit, and are possibly pre-building for it. This prospect is more of a risk for us than it is for KISS, as KISS is really just hoping to use DNUT to keep TNT down. KISS doens't care about DNUT getting Knights as much as it cares about TNT not getting knights. I'm starting to think that KISS will see the Device as superfluous, and not really worth spending any UN capital on.

General_W

Dec 14, 2005, 10:05 AM

I'm not entirely sure what I am advocating either
LOL – well then, let me offer a slightly scaled back version of my philosophy on this subject…

Is it realistic to expect peace for the whole game with KISS?
Yes. If we're so strong they don't want to attack us. If we can keep parity with KISS through the middle ages, then we will emerge as the powerhouse in the Industrial and Modern eras.
The "Peace with KISS" strategy depends on us getting Steam Power asap. (we have a chance to get it as a free tech even!) Once we get steampower, and the wonderful defensive units of the industrial era – the game swings solidly in favor of the defender until the advent of tanks (not till the end of Industrial era). The ability to move your whole defensive army to any besieged point in 1 turn is an awesome advantage for a well prepared defender.
If we can get to this point before KISS can reasonably attack us – I highly doubt they'll risk attacking us before they get tanks.
Therefore, if we (mostly) stop trading with KISS and bend our commercial and scientific power towards research (and several stacks of infantry and artillery) then hopefully we can open up a wide lead against KISS. By the time they get tanks, we have Mech. Infantry. When they get bombers, we've got mobile SAMs. By the time they get nukes, we've got Strategic Missile Defense.

Sure - we may face a Modern Era desperation attack, but if our tech lead is wide enough, and we've prepared appropriately – we should be able to handle it. (not to say it wouldn't be ugly).

Still I would definitely say that this is more appealing than slugging it out MDI/Hoplites vs. Gallic/Pikes.

Note on Research:
Very well said Chamnix. If we must research education ourselves, so be it.

On the Great Library Doomsday Treaty:
Good point about KISS Peter. However – who's to say that TNT won't pop Literature from a hut??? :evil:
I think denying Dnuts the Great Library is important enough to us that we should do what's necessary to make sure they don't get it.

On settling the Battle Island:
I like your list of priorities there Fe.
Only thing I'd add is that at this point, we probably need our starter city to be up nearer to the jungle… If we want to hold off the war with Dnuts till we get Cavalry – then we'll probably want a less provocative city location. We can still build a city right across the straight from it. Not as ideal as the Furs location – but if we want to wait till Calvary, the furs location is a non-starter.

In a tactical sense, having a city on the coast, on wines, near the jungle could be very good. Dnuts will naturally orient their defenses toward that city, expecting an invasion to come from there. We shouldn't disappoint them… but the second wave of our attack can land near their core! With most of their forces up north, we can catch them in a pincer move. (rubs hands with glee)

Chamnix

Dec 14, 2005, 01:23 PM

Just a couple disconnected thoughts in response to previous posts…

I’m not as optimistic as General_W that we will be able to build a sizeable tech lead over KISS. I think if we start to pull ahead that KISS will attack before we get very far ahead. Witness all the moaning they are already doing about our being 1 free Middle Ages tech ahead. Don’t forget about the option to steal technology as well – at some point it becomes cheaper to steal than to research. They may opt to do that to keep up and spend less they we spend.

You may be right that the early Middle Ages is not the time for war, but I think war will come before we get far enough ahead to matter. I’m still concerned that the final war will be fought with KISS flipping to Communism leaving us to deal with massive war weariness or a 9-turn anarchy.

Regarding steam power – once we get it and have railroads built (assuming we even have coal), defense definitely gets a lot easier. However, if enemy cavalry can reach our cities from outside our territory, we are still vulnerable since we will still only be defending with muskets. What do people think of the idea of leaving jungle to the north of our border cities to prevent a sneak attack? It costs us food, but may provide security. There is no urgency to decide this now as chopping northern jungle is very low on the priority list, but I thought I would throw it out there now.

Regarding attacking Battle Isle – several times people have mentioned the possibility of conducting a sneak attack on core cities using our settlement as a diversion. This is not going to be possible until at least Astronomy and possibly Navigation. We still have to uncover more territory, but I doubt there is any way a fleet of galleys could end each turn on coast and get to any core area unnoticed.

General_W

Dec 14, 2005, 02:26 PM

I’m not as optimistic as General_W that we will be able to build a sizeable tech lead over KISS. I think if we start to pull ahead that KISS will attack before we get very far ahead.
Ok – so you don't share my optimism… but what DO you propose we do? Attack KISS in the early Middle Ages?

Seems like we'd be trading "KISS will attack before we get very far ahead" for MIA attacking KISS when we're equal in tech. How is that a good trade?

Also it seems like we'd be trading defending against KISS spies for defending against KISS Gallic swordsmen. Again – I think I'd rather deal with the spies.

I'm not saying you don't have good points – you always do! I'm just saying that KISS is going to cause us trouble no matter what we do… they are our enemies after all!!
The question is: "when will we be in the strongest position relative to KISS?"

I just don't see how we're going to be stronger vs KISS in the next 20-40 turns than we are going to be 100 turns from now. The momentum is in our favor. Our traits will only get stronger while KISSes grow weaker relatively. Our hoplites will help us buy the time we need to get through the Middle Ages – and there's a decent chance that KISS will be too busy with TNT to worry about us right away.

I'm not trying to be wildly optimistic – I'm just trying to see where Greece is strongest – and I believe Greece is stronger and stronger as the game wears on. Therefore – better to put off the final doomsday war with KISS as long as possible.

Regarding attacking Battle Isle – several times people have mentioned the possibility of conducting a sneak attack on core cities using our settlement as a diversion. This is not going to be possible until at least Astronomy and possibly Navigation.
Actually – I believe we can sail down to the polar Ice cap in one turn, crusise along the bottom, then pop up at any of several points along Dnuts' southernmost border. (if I'm looking at our map correctly?) If I'm wrong on this - it'll be good to know!

Chamnix

Dec 14, 2005, 05:21 PM

You have very good points. Regarding when we will be strongest relative to KISS, I still think it might be early in the Middle Ages, but you have certainly made me rethink. My argument is based on the fact that at Feudalism we have roughly equally attacking units and our defensive unit dominates theirs (by being cheaper). Later on, our tech lead is only useful if we get a military tech significantly before them and turn on them immediately.

But you are right that our traits are stronger later, and you definitely make a good case for being patient as long as KISS doesn't make too much headway on the other continent which is how I started arguing about attacking KISS - I did change in the middle, but I guess I'm back to that. If KISS makes too much progress, then waiting seems to their advantage as scientist farms can more than compensate for our traits.

I don't know about the secret polar passage - we have to explore down there. There is a wisp of coast that leads to the poles, but I didn't think the area near the poles was usually coast - we will have to find out ourselves.

peter grimes

Dec 14, 2005, 08:32 PM

If this should be posted in the 'quick answers' thread, I'll move it... But until then:

What is a scientist farm, how are they set up, and how are they operated, and to what end?

Chamnix

Dec 15, 2005, 05:49 AM

A scientist farm is a completely corrupt city. All the tiles around it are irrigated. Citizens work the high food tiles to support specialists, and you hire as many scientists as the food will support.

In C3C, scientist specialists provide 3 beakers per turn so having enough cities like this enables you to maintain very fast research without using the science slider as much.

peter grimes

Dec 19, 2005, 05:53 AM

This threads seems the most appropriate for the question I'm posing.

We had been discussing the problems between KISS and MIA, and I made the comment that:

We can't get to the MA without them, and they can't get there without us.

To which,
Actually, we can. All we need to do is research Construction (or trade for it from TNT if it comes to that). We don't need Republic if KISS is going to be foolish about this.

If we dont' get Rep from KISS, yet advance to the Middle Ages anyway, what will we do about our government type???

Switch to Feudalism?... Go for Monarchy?.... Research Rep ourselves?

I almost think, at the moment, we should set research to Republic just as a safety net. In case KISS backs out, we will not have wasted 5+ turns if we have to do it ourselves.

Chamnix

Dec 19, 2005, 06:20 AM

I really don't think KISS will back out. They are a team that prides themselves on playing "honorably", and I don't think there is an honorable way to keep Republic from us. I think somehow we will find a way to close the deal.

However, if they do welch on the deal, then I think war with them is going to come sooner rather than later, and I think being in Feudalism gives us an advantage in an early war. Also, Feudalism is a tech that we really want anyway for MDI, and also it is a required tech.

fe3333au

Dec 19, 2005, 06:31 AM

We will be getting Republic from KISS as per the signed Agreement ...

The question is ... do we enter the MA together, or more to the point, is there still life in the Green Alliance.

If not then we either research it ourselves or trade with a Battle Islander to get it.

Once we hit the MA we will certainly have an advantage with our free tech ... KISS can either join us or I guess be left behind.

If they choose the latter, what will their reaction be ???

1. Join with Nuts in an Agreement ...
> :mischief: I think we have enough evidence to make this agreement shakey at best ... and if we can't then we threaten Nuts to give TNT a tech boost that will still be spoken about when CivV is released :lol:

2. Will they attack us ???
> Possibly but they are alone since the other two teams are busy in their own conflict.

Solution ... which I believe that we are going to do anyway is ... build walls and barracks in the Culture Wall cities and garrison with hoplites and catapults ... We then wait for them to come to us ... and sink their shipping.

I think one of the big clauses in any future dealing with KISS is the No Trade with Battle Islanders unless mutual agreement ... we must (and they hate this) stop them building up the Nuts.

Sorry just rambling now :crazyeye:

General_W

Dec 19, 2005, 01:09 PM

I know Chamnix and Fe are both convinced that KISS will be honorable, but what if they are not? I VERY MUCH hope that they will do the "right" thing – but with something this big, I think we should all talk about what happens if they welch on us - so we're prepared for the worst.

First of all, let me say 2 things

1) I very much hope the green alliance will hold at least through the Middle Ages

2) We must wait to see KISS's formal proposal before we decide the future of the alliance on our behalf.

Ok…

We need to answer some hard questions:

1) Is MIA willing to go to war if KISS's republic proposal is unacceptable us?

2) At what point does a deal become "unacceptable" to our team?

3) What War Strategy would we pursue?

Let me take a "quick" stab at all three from my pov.

1) Is MIA willing to go to war if KISS's republic proposal is unacceptable us?
Yes.
I believe it is important that we all go into this critical time of diplomacy with the understanding that we hold a much stronger hand than KISS.

We have several techs that they must get to leave the ancient era. They may be willing to sell republic amazingly cheap to the BattleIslanders to get most of those techs, but we should still be able to enter the MA and pick up Feudalism significantly before KISS does.

This would give us an excellent early game warmonger government, great offensive units, and a head start on pummeling KISS with them.

2) At what point does a deal become "unacceptable" to our team?
When they demand all our AA tech AND our free MA tech.

Remind me again – what's the point of playing a scientific team? Because I don't think it was so that we could give loads of free technology to our Agricultural and Religious neighbor with Gallic Swordsmen.

I'm not advocating we Welch on our deal with KISS. But lets not sell ourselves short here either!

3) What War Strategy would we pursue?
Aggressive "Surprise" Attack.

Again - I'm not advocating we Welch on our deal with KISS. But if KISS wants to ditch our signed deal – then I hope even Fe would agree that we are then free from all deals we made with them (and specifically the 10 turn notice deal).

Here's the exact language of the relevant portion of our deal with KISS
6. Techs are shared between both teams when Writing and Republic are discovered. We believe this balances out under "Most Favoured Nation" status.

That's surprisingly vague, given the rest of the treaty, but suffice to say – if we don't get Republic, the treaty has been broken. Who is at fault for breaking it will certainly be debated – but either way, the alliance, and the treaty will be dead. (In my opinion)

Personally – if that happens – I'd advocate going straight for Feudalism, and attacking KISS trying to do as much damage as possible right away. (How funny – I seem to remember Chamnix advocating something like this, and me arguing strongly against it… how times change!)

Fe's culture wall strategy is good and necessary – but if we really end up in a war situation with KISS, we really need to go on the offensive, in my opinion.

This is still completely theoretical – and I VERY MUCH hope never happens – but with something this big, I think we should all talk about it so we're prepared for the worst.

I'll save further commentary for later.
Looking forward to hearing what you all have to say!

Chamnix

Dec 19, 2005, 03:05 PM

Are we willing to go to war?

Well, yes, but the timing is very awkward for us. Our hand may not be quite as strong short-term as we would like. TNT completed Currency on Turn 73. They will probably take about 20 turns to complete Construction. We could not do it much faster even if we started immediately, so I think we are better off buying it (besides, giving techs to TNT means KISS has less to offer them). If we get Feudalism as our free tech, then life is good. However, if we do not, then we are probably looking at 20-25 turns to research it. Add in anarchy time, and we are probably looking at turn 120 before we are in Feudalism. KISS will be in Republic starting at around turn 85, so they will have a decent amount of time to recover from recession.

It is critical that we do not tip our plans to attack them. If they back out of the Republic deal, then we say we are very disappointed but hope we can stay at peace. We still feign interest in working together with them on other deals. I don’t know if they will buy it, but we are looking at a very real chance of a Despotic Golden Age if the deal falls through.

What is unacceptable?

I’ll wait to hear their offer before speculating on what is OK and what is not.

What is our war strategy?

I would advocate a quick strike on luxury towns followed by an attacking defense. Assuming they do not declare on us first before we are ready (a pretty big assumption), then to start the war, I would move two stacks of MDI guarded by hoplites next to their dyes and spice towns. Do not declare war. Either they declare (and we get the war happiness), or we get the first strike on their towns. We capture/raze 2 luxury towns on the first turn of the war immediately ending war happiness for them even if they force us to declare.

After the initial strike, I think we build our forces and look for opportunities. Since the fighting will be in jungle, their Gallic Swords will only move 1. As they approach us, we cut them down with MDI. Any attempts at amphibious assault from KISS will be easily detected long before they reach our core.

Meanwhile, we just keep building more units. More units will gradually bankrupt them while we don’t even feel it. With the advantage of drastically better unit support (and being plus 2 luxuries), we can force them to come to us so we can use our attack of 4 against their defense of 2.

Is my strategy realistic? Probably not – I’m really just going to accept the proposals of people who have actually fought multiplayer wars before. Strategically, it makes sense to me to fight in the jungle by attacking as they approach so we use our offense instead of moving toward their towns where they attack us. It also makes good strategic sense to me to minimize casualties so that either our force is much bigger than theirs or they are paying massive unit support to keep up. Tactically, my plan is probably a miserable failure. Our forces have to be somewhat spread out to defend our entire border whereas their attack will come in force at one point. I like to think that if our militaries are roughly equal, and they mass at one point to attack, then we can counterattack at other points without huge stacks because they will be underdefended, but I'm probably wrong.

I really hope we are wasting our time discussing this because KISS comes through with a reasonable offer…

peter grimes

Dec 19, 2005, 09:50 PM

I don't like this discussion at all! Makes me furrow my brow in confusion!

We are in no position to back up verbal threats with action on the ground. Whoever says otherwise is not looking at the same turnlogs I see.

This talk of war contingencies is, I feel, counterproductive. And here's 5 reasons why:

1. Like Chamnix pointed out, we're looking at 50 turns before we'll be on a proper economic footing for a war on our terms. If the war is not on our terms, it is not worth fighting. Seriously. It is worth losing a couple of towns defended by warriors than risk a despotic GA. Remember, this is coming from someone who not only has played uncountable games involving despotic GA's, but most of those games were designed to engage GA's at that time. Oh- I'd also never built a settler factory before joining this team :)

2. We are less heavily invested in this partnership than KISS is. Look around the KISS Universe. Who do they see?
TNT: a team wallowed in bronze-age poverty, occupying the natural landing point for an overseas invasion. Techs worth trading: Currency.
DNUT: a natural ally, but distrustful. Techs worth trading: Polytheism, Literature
MIA: clear adversary, but currently dependant and involved in a compicated peace. Techs worth trading: Currency, Literature, MapMaking, Polytheism
It's true: KISS doesn't need us. But, we can solve many of KISS's problems way easier than anyone else. All they have to do is give us Republic.

3. MIA stands to gain less by warring with KISS than we do by allying with them: Right now, we're like a crayfish just after molting. We are set to mature into our adult form, but our carapace is soft and spongy. When you are spongy is no time to pick fights. Trust me, I'm right on this one.

4. KISS is feeling insecure and unsure of themselves: The last thing a partner wants to hear from their counterpart is "Hey- Don't worry! I know you're feeling down... But I'll take care of you" Just substitute devious laughter and you'll know what it's like to be a Celt around now. When your partner is feeling vulnerable it is critical for both their well-being and the well-being of the relationship for them to realize that They have power as well. If KISS feels less powerful compared to us, they are more likely to strike out against us in a desperate attempt to establish superiority. It would be much better for us if we acted in ways that lead KISS to believe that they already ARE more powerful/skillful/intelligent than we are. Again - trust me on this one... if you let someone stroke their own ego, there will certainly be a happy ending for all involved.

5. Going to war will not solve our problems with KISS. Actually, if we go to war, it will only exacerbate the problems. Just look at BattleIsle. There is practically no chance they will ever cooperate in the future. What a sad state they are in. All because one team felt it was in their best interest to go to war early and take advantage of their UU. Too bad they were playing a strategy that was better suited to a different Map!!! Here, there is a situation that presents itself: The more the other teams fight, the stronger we get. The stronger we get, the more likely it is that one of us will be the team that wins. If KISS and MIA also start to fight, then the situation reverses. At that point, the longer and more bitterly MIA and KISS fight, the less likely it is that one of us will the team that wins.

I'm sorry I dont' have an eloquent closure... I just want to come down on the side of Reason and Temperance. I will gladly give up quite a bit before acquiescing to go to war.

fe3333au

Dec 20, 2005, 01:47 AM

4. KISS is feeling insecure and unsure of themselves: The last thing a partner wants to hear from their counterpart is "Hey- Don't worry! I know you're feeling down... But I'll take care of you" Just substitute devious laughter and you'll know what it's like to be a Celt around now. When your partner is feeling vulnerable it is critical for both their well-being and the well-being of the relationship for them to realize that They have power as well. If KISS feels less powerful compared to us, they are more likely to strike out against us in a desperate attempt to establish superiority. It would be much better for us if we acted in ways that lead KISS to believe that they already ARE more powerful/skillful/intelligent than we are. Again - trust me on this one... if you let someone stroke their own ego, there will certainly be a happy ending for all involved.

Regarding this ... and by the way I like that we are discussing this :salute:

Observation
KISS who were very strong in their expansion have suddenly and for a while now, ceased building cities !!!

What have they been building instead?

Skippy mentioned in a chat ... that they had been gearing up on an invasion of Battle Isle ... therefore they have been building military units.

Skippy also mentioned that they see our team as a greater threat now ... and our military is WEAK compared to them !!!

Solution ... at the very least we should begin to build more defensive units IMHO ... I believe that this is the wrong time for war, but what time ever is the right time ??

KISS certainly have an edge in unit strengths and numbers ... so let us reinforce our Lux cities first and then the rest of the Cultural Wall

Chamnix

Dec 20, 2005, 07:25 AM

@peter grimes - I definitely agree with almost everything you said (although that crayfish stuff really just made me hungry). The only thing I disagree with is about our Golden Age. If KISS attacks us while we are in Despotism, we will have a Despotic Golden Age - there is no other choice. We can't build spearman, so if we don't use hoplites, what do we defend with?

Also, if the war comes while we are in Despotism, then I doubt we will be able to afford an anarchy period to get to our preferred government. Finally, if we give up a couple cities, then switch to Republic or Feudalism, we will have war weariness immediately upon switching.

All the more reason to really really try to avoid war until we are ready...

fe3333au

Dec 20, 2005, 08:01 AM

Also all the more reason to come up with contingency plans now ... we don't want to be caught completely with our pants down between our ankles when an aggressive KISS attack does happen :lol:

Edit ... that's the clean version ... another word picture had us bare assed naked when KISS came a'callin :blush: :p

however we really do need to discuss and possible alter options and look to a home security policy ;)

peter grimes

Dec 20, 2005, 08:04 AM

Well I think it's pretty much a given that no matter who takes over from General_W, Hoplites will be the flavor of the week.

General_W

Dec 28, 2005, 12:15 PM

Back to the good old Grand Strategy Thread!

I thin MIA should make a strong effort to get at least one of the Great Middle Ages wonders.

IMO, We should try for either Sistine, Leo, or maybe even Templars as these are the best wonders in the whole game (again, IMO)

I'll be brief here in my reasons and wait for other comments.

Sistine Chapel (600) – [Cathedrals +6 happy instead of +3] Single best and most economical way to control the happiness of large cities in Republic. Nearly eliminates the need for happiness buildings other than Cathedrals in all but the largest cities.

Leo's Workshop (600) – [Halves unit upgrade costs] If we expect to be at war much in this game, and we probably should, then this wonder can be a bargain. Since we're also planning to achieve a technological advantage, the ability to upgrade our units to match our technological superiority could be a wonderfully powerful ability.

Knights Templar (300) – [Produces Crusader, 5/3/1 every 5 turns] expires with Steam Power. This is our most aggressive, and cheapest, option. Crusaders are highly respectable upgraded MedInf units that defend as well as our hoplites, and attack better than anything till Cavalry. After 40 turns we will have as many Crusaders as we could have build MedInf with those 300 shields. If we build it quick enough, this shouldn't be a problem. If we get stuck going down the education path – then this probably isn't worth it.

Given the huge game impact getting one of these wonders could have – it's important we have a plan – as our deal with researching with KISS, and even our battle plans will depend on what we decide.

Thoughts?

Chamnix

Dec 28, 2005, 02:30 PM

I have to disagree with you on Sistine's. Sistine's doesn't do anything unless the town invests an additional 60 shields for a temple and 160 shields for a cathedral. We have 5 native luxuries and hopefully will have a wines for ivory deal for much of the game to give us 6. A 100 shield marketplace should be enough to keep most of our cities happy (and provide some income). If not, then a temple and a cathedral in a town almost certainly would do it even without Sistine's bonus.

Leo's is certainly very powerful - the question in this game is what will we be upgrading to what. Usually with Leo's, I would disconnect iron (for example), build horses, then reconnect iron and upgrade them to knights cheaply. This game we are planning to set a town on one source of iron making it uncomfortable to disconnect. We could connect/disconnect saltpeter (maybe - depends on where it is) to upgrade to cavalry, but knights to cavalry is not that expense an upgrade anyway. We could avoid chivalry so we can't build knights and do a horse to cavalry upgrade - do we dare? I'm just not sure.

Bottom line is I don't know what wonders we should be looking at (isn't it great making long posts without actually suggesting anything?).

peter grimes

Dec 28, 2005, 02:57 PM

I've always been partial to Leonardo's Workshop. Obviously, a prebuild is key, as in my experience if I don't time a pre-build to within a turn or two of Invention, one of the AI's sneaks it out from underneath me.

Of course, we can't have that luxury. The only possible place to 'prebuild' is "look Here", and I would rather see the Forbidden Palace completed.

I've never built the Sistine Chapel, but then again I've never successfully completed an Emperor level game. It seems like it has a better value at this level than on the lower levels.

Kinghts Templar - again, I've never built it - but after 40 turns, won't we be pretty close to Cavalry?...

I think I'm weighing in on the Sistine Chapel, but ONLY if we don't need a city's production for a more dire and immediate military need.

General_W

Dec 28, 2005, 02:59 PM

Re: Sistine: Good points Chamnix – I always used to make the Noob mistake of building temples before this MTDG, so I hadn't fully thought through the ramifications.

Re: Leo's – Even without some fancy mojo of disconnecting or reconnecting resources, we'll still want to upgrade units to riflemen, or guerillas, or cannons, etc. Leo's never expires – so we'll have long term options. It's a thing of beauty to be the first to Nationalism, and suddenly all your frontline cities have Riflemen instead of Musketmen.

Re: Templar - @Chamnix: am I to take your silence on this as meaning Knights Templar is your preferred option?

Chamnix

Dec 28, 2005, 03:18 PM

Don't read too much into my silence - as rare as it is, it still isn't particularly meaningful. I am firmly sticking to my previous assertion of "I don't know".

Knights Templar is a good wonder, it is definitely a good use of shields, but is it the best use of shields? Maybe. There are so many options to consider - I like Sun Tzu's too, you are right Leo's is still a good thing, the Pyramids would still be useful, we still need lots of infrastructure, we have more settlers to churn out, and have I mentioned how low we are on workers lately? :mischief:

I'm glad you brought it up so we can talk about it and make a smart decision, but I'm not ready to cast my vote just yet.

peter grimes

Dec 28, 2005, 07:06 PM

Great reading :)

The only concern I have is that we don't lose sight of the reason behind building a wonder. The wonder must be constructed, as Chamnix mentioned, because that is the best use of the shields, giving us the longest term benefit.

It always seemed to me, in my personal games, that Sun Tzu's and Leonardo's dovetailed very well. It pretty much made no difference what was going on in the world - those two Wonders always seemed a profitable goal, and definitely worth the investment. But I've never examined a game from Chamnix's 'Squeeze Every Resource' point of view. Because of that, I'm feeling less sure of my own judgements regarding wonders.

That said, I think the Templars would only make sense in the run up to a war, or in the event KISS flakes out.

General_W

Dec 28, 2005, 11:56 PM

Pyramids would still be useful
Don't get my hopes up again on the pyramids.
I cried when those dreams died last time. I don't think I could take it again.

Sun Tzu's and Leonardo's dovetailed very well
This is very true, but if we could actually get both of them in a competitive multiplayer game, it would be impressive indeed. At the least, we'd need to build them both at the same time, and imo, losing two high production cities at this stage is far too high a price to pay, even for that sweet combo.

I think the Templars would only make sense in the run up to a war I agree 100% - but aren't we essentially running up to a war now? If we want to attack Dnuts around cavalry - then now is the time to work on getting the KTemplar. We'll need time to build it and time to get the "free" units.

Course - if we end up going the Education Route...
AND if KISS helps attack Dnuts...
AND if TNT's Stack of Doom is as big as advertized...

Then we may not have time to get KTemplar anyway. It may just be a matter of scrambeling over there with whatever we've got and trying to get a piece of the action. (Making a domestic oriented build more attractive... like...hmm ... maybe the pyramids?!?... no! out these dreams of mine! die!)

peter grimes

Dec 29, 2005, 07:16 AM

I don't understand why the pyramids would still be a good value. 400 shields = 7 granaries @ 60ea. Why would we want 7 granaries?... After our expansion phase?...

I presume this would have to be done in one of our high-producing cities, which are currently settler factories, or in Look Here after the FP is completed. I just imagine that we'll want those quickly generated shields to go towards domestic infrastructure or military. So far, I haven't heard a good reason to divert those resources.

Knight Templar is the only one that's making any sense to me right now.

Chamnix

Dec 29, 2005, 10:53 AM

General_W may not want to read this...

You are right that they are less critical after expansion is over, but more food is always good. Most of our towns have no food bonuses and are growing every 10 turns now and will be even slower after size 7. Growth is key to production. Towns like Phoenopolis and Aliakmon Stronghold will not be very effective military producers until they have more citizens. More citizens = more shields and more money.

Even in corrupt towns, faster growth means we can get specialists sooner. Having a granary in every town is very powerful, and having them there with no maintenance and not having to spend to 60 shields per town is even better.

classical_hero

Dec 29, 2005, 11:45 AM

WRT KT, I believe that it is a waste of shields because we could put those shileds to a better use. We should only build this wonder if we have a city that has spare capacity and it is the only wonder out there to get. I would prefer that we not even think of getting this wonder. Considering that we are likely going to have to build wonders to get our GA, then we should try and get two wonders that will fit that bill quite nicely. Obviously the two wonders that we seemed to have agreed one are priority for us, but then we need to get onto our GA. i will say that after AoW and Leo's we should go for Newtons and Adam's.

I am neutral to the Pyramids right now because we are growing quite fast as it is right now, so it might be a waste of time going for Pyramids.

peter grimes

Dec 29, 2005, 02:25 PM

Considering that we are likely going to have to build wonders to get our GA, then we should try and get two wonders that will fit that bill quite nicely. Obviously the two wonders that we seemed to have agreed one are priority for us, but then we need to get onto our GA.

It was my understanding that engaging our Golden Age through Wonder building was a last resort, to be used in case there was no chance of a war involving our Hoplites. The resource investment in a Wonder-triggered Golden Age will be massive. Plan on 800 shields minimum.

Also, which wonders we had agreed on building?

General_W

Dec 29, 2005, 03:05 PM

Curses!

I read that spoiler about the pyramids… and I'm starting to drool.

If you think about it – you can't really weigh the value of the pyramids just in terms of the shield costs saved by not building granaries in all your other cities. For many, many of our cities, building a granary would be a massive undertaking that would tie the city up for easily 60 years (in our most corrupt cities). The ability to grow these cities faster (and sooner) thanks to the pyramids is a powerful way (and in-fact the only way) to rapidly bring new and border cities into a place where they are actually useful for something – like scientist farms etc.

We can essentially use one high productivity city in our core to mass build granaries for our low productivity cities all over… and save a fortune on upkeep costs. (a principle similar to military factories really)

We may find ourselves in a race for other wonders – but unless KISS is doing a secret pre-build, it's very likely we'll be the only Civ bold enough to make a try for the Pyramids. Nuts and TNT are much more likely to try for the Great Library if they go for a Wonder.

Hold me Back!
I'm into dream mode!

I almost never get the pyramids in my advanced difficulty or multiplayer games because early in the game, it's too much more important to have the cities – and an AI or some human always builds them before I can "afford" to get them.

But in this weird MTDG game – where all the teams are playing smart – no one made the noob mistake of sacrificing their early settler expansion for the pyramids, and with no AI, we now have this twilight zone opportunity of building the pyramids in the Middle Ages!!

We've somehow managed to out-expand KISS, and Dnuts and TNT are still lagging behind thanks to their war – giving us the opportunity to very soon shut one settler pump down and race for the Pyramids.

(wipes drool from chin)

This could be a big enough deal that I could see us shutting down the Athens settler pump sooner than planned (ie after 2 more settlers?) and getting started on the Pyramids. Emp City will keep churning out the remaining settlers we need, along with the occasional extra settler from Heron or elsewhere. We'll shortly have our culture wall securing everything South of the Jungle, and even just 1 settler factory will quickly fill that up. Most of the cities we build from now on will only be marginally useful for a very long time anyway… unless we get the pyramids!!

Ok – my heart is pumping, I'd better stop before I go nuts.

Someone better talk me off this ledge – or else agree to do this!

P.S. Golden age through wonder building should be a last resort, imo. - and even then - how sweet would it be to get the golden age with the Internet Wonder and use our GA to build a spaceship! :lol:

EDIT: Remember...
http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/3020/achevement6nt.jpg

peter grimes

Dec 29, 2005, 03:34 PM

I'm glad I read Chamnix's "General_W Spoiler"... I could get behind building the Pyramids. But only if we have a back-up plan in case someone else builds it out from underneath us. I REALLY hate it when that happens.

By the way - there is another way to grow our outer cities, but it is also resource heavy, just in a different way: We can join workers to the cities. But again, that would still take a massive investment.

Realistically, how many turns to complete Pyramids in Athens (currently our highest producer)? quick math says not longer than 67 turns, but I have a feeling Chamnix could twek that down by ten turns. Thats still a really long time. I think I'll need more convincing.

General_W

Dec 29, 2005, 03:48 PM

According to my quick math...

at it's current size, Athens is allready pulling 7 shields per turn...
= pyramids in 57 turns with no growth.

We should be able to get Athens to around 12spt without too much trouble
Meaning pyramids go to only 34ish turns.

More spt = even faster.

...Still puts completion in term 6 somewhere.

Will wait for Cham to tell us the real scoop!

@Peter Re: Adding workers - good point. Forgot about that. Still the lost worker turns would be way more painful than losing production in one city for 40 turns and that's not even counting the walking time and extra lost citizens in core cities - due to building more workers to actually work.

peter grimes

Dec 29, 2005, 04:18 PM

Okay - your quick math is stronger than my quick math. I was using the wrong screenie from your CivAssist voodoo.

About the worker join thingy, I wasn't advocating it, I was simply pointing out an alternate way of growing those towns without granaries.

I guess my hesitation about the Pyramids stems from how often I've been burned by someone building the same thing quicker. Sometimes I have a back-up wonder that I can throw the shields to, but that's less common than simply losing most of the shields. Granted, my skill level isn't the highest around, and this could be a symptom of that. But I wouldn't be comfortable building any wonder without a backup available.

Chamnix

Dec 29, 2005, 04:47 PM

I think fairly early in Republic we will have 5 luxuries (ivory, incense and furs right away, dyes probably about 10-12 turns after anarchy ends, and a trade for wines - spices will take some time). That means we can support 6 citizens with no luxury spending. Since Athens has so much gold, 10% luxuries (which is probably a good idea anyway to get other towns to size 7) can probably keep another 3 citizens happy, so we can grow to size 9 without a huge sacrifice.

Athens has so much food and a granary so growth to size 9 will not take too long. The issue is taking the BGs from Heron/Meleagerville. If we maximize Athens' production at size 9, we can get 20 spt, but that involves mining a couple plains, and we really don't have enough workers in that area, so probably 16-18 spt. I would think we could get it done in about 25 turns once we are in Republic.

General_W

Dec 29, 2005, 05:10 PM

I would think we could get it done in about 25 turns once we are in Republic.
Wow!! :drool:

Ok. So what do people think of shutting off the settler pump in Athens after we get Republic and then going for the Pyramids?

(In the extremely misfortunate event that we lose the Pyramids, we can switch to Leo's if available or stall by switching to Sistine till we trade for Invention.)

Anything we're missing?
Anything MORE important we could be doing in Athens?

Chamnix

Dec 29, 2005, 06:53 PM

I'm not sure about the backup plan. If we get Feudalism as our Middle Age tech, then we should be able to switch to Sun Tzu's. If we get Engineering, and we research Feudalism, then we will still be OK. If we get Monotheism and research Theology, then we will not have any Middle Ages wonders to switch to by the time we need to switch. I think if we miss the Pyramids then we end up with the Statue of Zeus - not terrible, but certainly not the best use of 400 shields.

General_W

Dec 29, 2005, 07:25 PM

Good point Chamnix. I forget how expensive some of those key Middle Ages techs are.

Well - if our only hang-up is the backup plan, I'm ok with the SoZ, but it seems like the Colosus may serve our long term strategy better.

Colossus wouldn't be worth building on it's own, but as a fall back it could be add a nice benifit to Athens. (and gives us a commercial wonder in the bank if we blow getting our golden age somehow) It also lasts longer than the Statue-O-Zeus.
If we want a more militaristic bent, I'd even prefer the Great Lighthouse over the SoZ. The extra 1 move can be killer in an early overseas war.

classical_hero

Dec 29, 2005, 09:28 PM

Considering that if we start to allow our cities to grow, we will have enough research capacity to get researching quickly. So would not worry too much about that at this stage, unless we do not allow our cities to grow like they should.

peter grimes

Dec 30, 2005, 07:12 AM

Didn't really consider the Colossus... I guess I could sleep well with the Colossus in the closet.

I think switching to just one settler factory after switching to Republic is fine, but I don't know if we will be able to afford to slow down the military factories. We'll have to see where we stand with KISS and Dnuts, and how secure we feel.

I'd really like to see the Greeks raise the first city in the world: It would serve as a reminder how much more profitable peace is than war.

Chamnix

Dec 31, 2005, 10:13 AM

If we don't build the Pyramids, Athens will produce 8-9 settlers over those 25 turns. Would we rather have 8-9 more towns (most likely corrupt) or have maintenance-free granaries in the 15+ towns we have now (and all future towns on the continent)? It is close, but I think we would prefer the Pyramids.

Caveats -

If we have any indication someone else may be building them before we get too many shields, we abort. I really am not thrilled with our backup plan. I don't see the Great Lighthouse as worth 300 shields on this map. The biggest advantage of that is the ability to move on and trade through sea tiles, neither of which seems important given the map. The extra naval move is nice, but for 300 shields?

The Colossus is a nice luxury, but if we just get beaten to the Pyramids, then I would hate to build a 350 shield Colossus.

If KISS doesn't accept our 20-turn peace offer, we drop this idea. I think this one is pretty obvious. I am really not very comfortable being weak compared to KISS, and if they don't agree to longer term peace, then that can only mean they don't want long-term peace in which case I don't think we can afford the luxury of building the Pyramids.

If we are going to do this, we should start thinking about what wonder we want to claim to be building. We can use a marketplace then a Coloseum as the initial builds, but after that, we will have to show a wonder. Which one should it be, and what should we tell our rivals we are building if they ask in chats? Maybe we should be honest, but we should think about it at least.

General_W

Jan 04, 2006, 10:04 AM

Ok – there are so many things we need to discuss, and they bridge multiple threads – so I'll just post here, and we'll see where it goes.

Where We're At:
KISS is angling to be free of our peace deal. The only reasonable conclusion is that they intended to attack us.
Consider:
* KISS has been aggressively building up military forces.

* KISS has made it clear they are unhappy with how we have caught up/ passed them in key power statistics.

* Given the opportunity to secure peace, KISS has rejected it.

To view this as anything other than the appetizer before the main dish of Gallic Swordsmen is foolishness.
It may already be too late.

If we hope to survive, we must have a plan for 4 main areas:
1) Government
2) Diplomacy
3) Defense
4) Domestic

1) Government
I think Republic would hurt us a lot more than help us at this point. We need more unit support! We may HAVE to do the trade for republic in order to buy 10 turns to prepare for the war – but I definitely think we should NOT switch to Republic. We can't really afford the anarchy time at this point anyway.

I'd much rather see us angle for Feudalism. We'll want those military techs anyway, and if the war goes well – we may be able to take a breather and try to switch to Feudalism. (5 free units per town and you can pop rush!)

2) Diplomacy
Personally – I'd rather NOT trade for republic – we don't need it, and we'd be giving KISS a bunch of useful tech.
However – if we back out (as Fe pointed out) – the KISS will likely feel justified in attacking us without the 10 turn warning. This would be a HUGE blow, and we should probably do the Republic deal… IF IF IF KISS swears on all that is holy to them to give us our 10 turns to prepare. If KISS won't agree to the 10 turns peace – then we really have NO REASON whatsoever to trade Republic with them – in my opinion.

I also think we should try to cement relationships with Dnuts and TNT right away – I wouldn't mind trading Map Making to Dnuts – so we can get a trading partner for Wines.
Ditto for TNT – give them whatever to get Construction.

In both cases, we should try to find away to get TNT and Dnuts on our side – and especially try to get them NOT to trade anything to KISS. (if possible!)

3) Defense Plans:
Since we're abandoning our city on the far east of the jungle – at least for now – I Strongly implore the defense department to send at least one unit to stand watch on that Mountain in the gap where KISS could sneak a whole army through.

Hoplites should of course be rushed to our border towns, and the mass upgrade to swordsmen is also a must! (Thank God we've been stockpiling cash!!)

I think leaving at least one of our explorers overseas is an ok idea (money or tech from a hut could be very helpful) – but I'd personally like to see at least the warrior come back home on that galley and stand guard on the mountain in our blind gap.
(If thing go bad quickly, Maybe the horse unit could even get on the galley, sail up towards KISS and try to pillage some of their resources??)

I think we should focus on defense, till we can (hopefully) get ahead in tech before we take the fight to KISS in anything beyond pillaging raids.

4) Domestic
Ok – my department finally.
Domestic will of course shift focus to get us more barracks towns, more hoplites, and more military units.
Our frontline and second line cities will all need to start city walls ASAP- I'll post a more detailed plan as soon as I can get another break here at work.

(Cham – can we try to hold the save as long as possible this time?)

Looking forward to hearing everyone's comments and thoughts on how we can get our empire on a war footing in the most efficient and synchronized way possible!

Chamnix

Jan 04, 2006, 10:53 AM

@General_W – thanks for consolidating all of this and putting it in a good format for discussion. Here’s my take on your 4 points:

1. Government – A lot depends on how many turns we have to prepare. I think if KISS views their letter as starting a 10-turn clock, then we are going to fight in Despotism. It has advantages of very good unit support and no war weariness, but it has the tile penalty which will be particularly painful for our Golden Age. If we can successfully convince them not to attack until 20 turns after Republic is discovered (which is what I think our previously signed agreement actually says), then we have more options.

Despotism – as mentioned above. If we fight in Despotism, then we are clearly fighting an “elimination” war – we will try to push them into war weariness, survive their Golden Age, and keep the fight going.

Republic – I agree with General_W’s analysis. This would be a poor government to fight in thanks to war weariness and poor unit support. Its only perks are the fact that it doesn’t have the tile penalty, it has reduced corruption, and it will be available first.

Feudalism – It has great unit support without the despotism tile penalty and less corruption than despotism (but more than Republic). The downsides are that it still has war weariness and unless we are lucky, it will take us too long to get it – we will already be at war and not want to go through anarchy then. I’m also not sure pop-rushing is preferable – our only high food area is near our core, and I don’t know what else we would spend our money on if not cash-rushing. Once we have Feudalism I doubt we will want to research much more until the war is over.

Monarchy – this may be best if we can pull it off. Suppose KISS agrees that we have 20 turns of peace after Republic (turn 104). Suppose Donuts will discover Monarchy on turn 98. We can trade for Republic from KISS (as W mentioned, we probably have to) and arrange a deal for Monarchy from Donuts (Map Making and Currency?). On turn 94 we enter anarchy and choose Monarchy when we exit on turn 99-103. No war weariness, adequate unit support, no tile penalty, reduced corruption, cash rushing… there are a lot of “supposes” in there, but we have our Foreign Minister back…

2. Diplomacy – I completely agree, but I am still holding out for 20 turns of peace after the discovery of Republic - that is what KISS agreed to. They may break their word in which case we have severe problems, but at least they won’t be able to claim they won “honorably”, and I think that may be important enough to them so that they follow the agreement.

3. Defense Plans – You all know I am very weak here having never fought a human. Just a couple comments… a lone horse is not worth sending pillaging – a GS will slaughter him too easily. However, I do think it is worth sending empty galleys to KISS’ capital just to make sure they keep some defense back from the front line. I’m not sure fighting defensive until we “get ahead in tech” is an option. I guess you’re thinking of Feudalism? In that case, I think I agree. I don’t see Chivalry as realistic before the war is essentially decided, but I don’t really know what I’m talking about.

4. Domestic – Well, I will do my part to micromanage as much as possible if Defense gives me a rough idea of what type of troops in what proportions we want. I am curious what our worker priorities should be – roads to the outposts or improve our core/barracks towns first?

EDIT - as far as holding the save, I have no idea when I am going to be able to play anyway. This time of year is brutal at work, and my girlfriend found out this morning that her Employer is going out of business, so rushing to the computer as soon as I get home is probably not an option...

General_W

Jan 04, 2006, 11:16 AM

@Cham – sorry to hear about your GF's job – no worries about the save – I won't cry if we have to ask for an extension anyway.

Quick Response to Chamnix's points:
I like the Monarchy plan – if we can pull it off. So happy Fe is back – hopefully he can talk to Dnuts very soon.

Yeah – I may have been too optimistic thinking we could keep some research while fighting. If KISS does give us 20 turns (oh please, oh please, oh please) then we may be able to get enough hoplites on the frontlines that we'll totally rebuff their attack. At that point, we may be able to do some modest research while still successfully holding KISS to their half of the continent.

And finally- I agree – the pillage option probably isn't worth it – but how sweet would it be to sail across the channel, and come upon an undefended city we can grab and burn :evil: - even if not – the threat should take some of the heat off our frontline.

Now – here's my follow-up to my previous post… some more specific ideas for getting our defense plan really cooking:

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/DefensePlan_84.jpg
*using "photobucket" since imageshack is down

Frontline Towns (Blue Squares)
Switch to city walls this turn

We should pop-rush units as much as we can to keep the population of our Frontline towns at 1 pop. We don't want KISS to capture these cities – we want them razed if we lose them.

Frontline towns should build catapults or regular hoplites - depending on how long we have to get Veteran Hoplites up to the front.

Second Line Towns (Black Squares)
Switch to city walls (unless almost done building a worker – in which case finish the worker, then start city walls)

If the frontlines are holding – start building Barracks – or if more than 50% corrupt – catapults.

If the Frontlines have fallen – just build regular hoplites.

Hopefully this gets some juices flowing!
Looking forward to what you have to say.

Chamnix

Jan 04, 2006, 11:43 AM

I don't think we need libraries in our outpost towns - we will retain cultural control of any tile that is closer to our town than theirs. The only way they could impinge on our 9-tile area is by placing another town immediately outside our borders and rushing culture in it - I think they are far more likely just to attack directly.

General_W

Jan 04, 2006, 11:55 AM

EDIT: Never mind! :blush:

Was thinking of Civ4!

Chamnix

Jan 04, 2006, 12:12 PM

You must be thinking of Civ IV - no matter how much culture they rush in their current towns, we will still have our 9-tile cultural border. Similarly, no matter how much culture we rush, we will not be able to get either mountain in our border with our current towns.

Any tile that is directly next to our town tile will always be within our cultural border unless they also have a town directly next to that tile.

General_W

Jan 04, 2006, 12:22 PM

oh man! Thanks Chamnix. I was afraid of that. I've adjusted orders accordingly.
(sorry for distracting us from the main strategic discussion) :blush:

peter grimes

Jan 04, 2006, 01:00 PM

Busy busy day, both on the boards as well as at work. I've got to wait for the first coat of shellack to dry here, so i've got a couple of minutes:

Government I understand that Republic has terrible unit support, but might it still be worth the economic boost coupled with a Golden Age? We will be able to secure Wines from Dnuts (hopefully!), and as long as we don't lose our jungle luxuries, I think we'd be fine. We don't need research, so we can run 40% luxury or so. But let's not forget: I've never succeeded on Emperor, and I've never waged war against a human.

Domestic Roads Roads Roads!!!! I like General W's plan for a single road linking our Frontier (harder for KISS to penetrate), but I'm thinking it would be better for our own troop movements to have a more distributed road system. I'll try and incorporate some ideas onto a map later on today.

I don't like the idea of libraries in frontier towns. I think that is speculation best left for ten turn from now. Let's just worry about Walls and roads at first. Obviously, walls do no good without someone to man them, which brings me to:

Defense Ughhh. What an ugle picture. Well, first things first: Let's leave the warrior on Battle Isle. I think the mobility and added attack value of Phlegon is more valuable at home than abroad. The Galley may then continue up the coast to act as a sentry near the eastern mountain, at least until we get a unit up there.

Swordsmen: If there's any way to get the iron hooked up quicker, I'd go for that. We have 5 warriors as MP right now, of which two may be immediately upgraded as Hoplites move in. But then, those are two Hoplites not on our frontlines. It's a tradeoff I'm not sure how to resolve yet. Hopefully we'll know more soon. I'd love to rush those barracks as much as possible, but without being reckless.

Barb Central Patrollers: One of the warriors may head to the eastern mountain overlook. It'll be 5 turns before Butes can be there, but that's not too shabby! The other warrior could go to Flaxon Musk as a defender... But that leaves Chuck Norrisville without anyone to man the walls... Tough...

Diplomacy: It's a good thing I didn't finish that draft of my Essay titled: Why MIA doesn't need TNT

I'd like us to find out exactly how 'open' we can be with our past communications with KISS. If KISS renegs, I'd like us to be able to show, privately, TNT and DNUTs selected communications between us and KISS to demonstrate their 'lack of honor', if it comes down to that. I remember specifically Whomp saying 'You can check up our reputation in the PBEM forums. We stand by our word'. It would be good to have a little insurance here.

Also, I think the first mission of diplomacy should be to try and find out WHAT IS GOING ON IN KISSLAND? Why have things come to be this way, and what do we need to do differently in the future to try and keep the peace?

Keeping the PEACE should be every Minister's Primary Objective

Chamnix

Jan 04, 2006, 02:00 PM

OK, I guess it is one step at a time.

First, our Foreign Minister has several jobs to do (welcome back Feaurius :wavey:). He must find out if there is any way KISS will agree to an extended peace. If there is nothing that will convince them, then we know exactly where we stand (I think we already know, but there’s no harm done in confirming). Assuming we are on war footing, we should remind them that according to the agreement they signed, they are not permitted to withdraw (and give 10 turns warning) until 10 turns after Republic is discovered.

At the same time, we need to find out what our options are with respect to Monarchy. We need to know if Donuts are researching it, when it will be completed, and what they might be willing to trade it for. Even if we end up at peace with KISS, it doesn’t hurt to have Donuts think we are on the verge of war.

Finally, we will need to finalize a deal for Construction. This item is currently in TNT’s court, and there is no need to harass them about it, but we need to make sure that if they have any questions, we have someone available to answer them promptly.

The only other immediate item is how to play the current turn. Speaking from memory, I don’t think the towns we discussed must be changed this turn – I probably will change them anyway, but they all have time to be changed back if we end up peaceful.

The only town I think must be changed this turn if we want to change is Look Here could be changed from Forbidden Palace to barracks with a small loss now. I hate to say this, but I think it may be worth doing. We have 42 shields accumulated (I think). If we go to war, I think the war may be realistically decided before the FP completes, and I would hate to lose because we didn’t use one town we could have used. If we end up at peace, we probably don’t cost ourselves that many turns on the build – I doubt we would need more than 5-6 turns to make up those 42 shields in Republic with mined hills. The Forbidden Palace is critical long-term, but we have to get through the short-term first. Unless Feaurius gets a peace promise before the turn is played, I cast my non-existent vote to change Look Here to barracks.

As far as worker moves, I’ll have to look to see if I would do anything differently. I know we have 3 workers roading through the jungle toward the dyes and 2 heading north from Look Here to Flaxon Musk. We are also preparing to road the iron – I don’t know if there is any urgency to get the iron sooner than 6 turns – we could use the time to build another couple warriors.

EDIT - I wrote this before I saw General_W's excellent proposed letters (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=3533267&postcount=19) in the Foreign Offices Thread.