I'm a Civ3 player right now, but I'm thoroughly disappointed in the game, and was wondering if anyone who's played both would care to make some comparisons, pros/cons, etc.

There's just too many little flaws in CiV3, including the atrocious turn times in the late game, unlimited railroad movement, slow naval movement, etc, that make it more annoying than fun to play at times.

I'm looking forward to the next Civ-killer that comes out, but until then: any thoughts on the Civ3/CTP rivalry?

They are different games. There is room for both on my hard drive and in my heart. The Medieval and Cradle modpacks for CTP2 enhance CTP2 a huge amount. In fact, I wouldn't recommend CTP2 straight out of the box.

Yeah... I suppose that's kind of what I expected to hear from some people; I know they aren't similar enough to be directly compared.

still waiting for the Civ-killer...

Voot

I was so enthused when i bought Civ3, i was even more when Gamespot gave it 9.7 and the best game of the year award (wasn't it?).
Well here's my verdict on Civ3; could've been a lot better! Ok sure they added some neat things like strategic resources and better diplomacy but i just feel CTP2 has alot more to offer! I bought CTP2 a few days ago cos i was gettin' sick of Civ3!
In terms of gameplay value i would whole-heartedly vote for CTP2, Civ3 just dosen't hit that spot for me, it's too bland..

I just couldn't stand CTP2! Yes, it has a more features than Civ3 (like extra civs, etc.) but I hate the interface! I got the game, played it for one or two days and never touched it again.

I definitely vote for Civ3!

some pluses for CTP:

1. more goverments

2. more civilizations

3. more wonders

some minuses for CTP:

1. too easy to start wars (send that enemy slaver over, i'll put him in slavery and start a war at the same time)


now for civIII.

pluses:

1. easy interface.

2. you can see your boarders

3. more ways to win

4. Leaders

Minus:

1 can't teraform the land

2. can't turn pollution off

3. can't inprove farmland

Civ3 has excellent AI and diplomacy.
CTP2 has an awesome technology tree but it has a much worse diplomacy (plus your opponents almost never accept anything without a threat) and a very poor AI. But I consider public works idea better than workers because you don't have a railroad in every square on the map with this system. And I dislike the absence of citizens that you place on a preferred square in the city (CTP1 didn't lack yhis option) I'd say CTP2 is a good idea but a bad manifestation of this idea.

I dont know, ive played all of the civ games, and im currently hooked to civ 3. While i played the ctp series, i have to say, i think it was definatly not the height of the series, infact i perfered civ 2 gold edition to it. Mainly because of the scenarios :). The scenarios problem is of course also a problem to civ 3, but i still think its a great game.

I have also played all civ games. All where good in there time.
But Civ3/CTP2 is a very hard choise so here is what do.
When i am online i will go play CTP2
When i am offline i will go play Civ3
This makes it easy for me, the question is.
When Civ3 brings out MP will it still be the same I dont know coz I still like CTP2 more but only online (AI are to Easy) but Civ3 is a challange offline (no MP) so i will prob play online for a while and if i like it i might just have to start playing both online

Originally posted by General Ike
some pluses for CTP:

1. more goverments

2. more civilizations

3. more wonders

some minuses for CTP:

1. too easy to start wars (send that enemy slaver over, i'll put him in slavery and start a war at the same time)


now for civIII.

pluses:

1. easy interface.

2. you can see your boarders

3. more ways to win

4. Leaders

Minus:

1 can't teraform the land

2. can't turn pollution off

3. can't inprove farmland

Civ 3 has an easy interface?!?!? Its terrible, compared to Ctp 1 anyway, even ctp2. It all seems too bare and theres too much shift+random key pressing to get anything done. I think its obvious they didnt included any on screen interface because the game runs as slow as a tortoise wading through treacle. I always thought one of the plus points about civ games was all the little fiddley bits and finding out what they all did, and trying to tweak it all (easily) to get the best from your civ.
Number 2, you can see your borders, erm well thats a plus for Ctp2 also then.
I do agree that the leaders are a good idea though.

But the point is, Ctp2 is a different game but IMHO is a better gaming experience, but only with MOD's or online.

Originally posted by General Ike
some minuses for CTP:

1. too easy to start wars (send that enemy slaver over, i'll put him in slavery and start a war at the same time)


Actual it is the same thing to send a unit to an enemy city or unit and attack it.

Originally posted by General Ike
Minus:

1 can't teraform the land

2. can't turn pollution off

3. can't inprove farmland

4. Time wasting worker micromanagement was the answer on the demand no more settlers instead of PW

5. You can't add gouvernmets, terrain types, wonders, units, tile improvments, buildings, advantages, orders, feats, ai goals, concepts....

6. No slic that allows you to add a city kill option and enslave the whole population when you capture a city.

7. Obsolete 8bit 256 color graphics

8. Two patches are already out and the game isn't ok. I expect more for 50?.

9. Time wasting message system.

10. No real scenarios

11. No ZOC

12. No MP

13. No future techs the recreation of history end in the near past

14. No sea cities

15. Under 30 city names per civ in the default version

16. Less than 42 civs in the original version of Civ3


Come on Firaxis if I buy a successor of a great game than I expect more, new and better and not less, something new and not better at least for 50?. You mean Civ3 is something like back to the roots, maybe but if I want to get back to the roots than I keep me to the original. Actual no game costs 50?. If a game is new than 45? are ok and if it 5 month old than maybe 35? and not 45?.

-Martin

What I enjoy most of civ3 over ctp2: railroads. In ctp2 your units had to scroll over the whole screen (maglev), in civ3 they're where you want 'em without all the movement thingy. That's good.

At first, I was a bit disappointed in civ3. Compared to civ2 it rocks, but qua units, techs and improvements ctp2 is plain BETTER! But then I found that the diplomacy (read: extortion) of civ3 if better developed and I like the strategic resources a lot. That gives a nice twist at the game. I doubt I will revert to ctp2.

Oh yeah, one last thing: people saying ctp2 s*cks really don't have a clue. (like those people addicted to unreal saying quake s*cks, it just doesn't make sense).

GRTNX

Originally posted by Shabbaman
What I enjoy most of civ3 over ctp2: railroads. In ctp2 your units had to scroll over the whole screen (maglev), in civ3 they're where you want 'em without all the movement thingy. That's good.
Well, you can speed up the process a *lot* by disabling animation, but I agree an instant-move feature would be nice.

I doubt I will revert to ctp2.
Out of curiosity, have you ever played CtP2 with mods? (Cradle, MedMod)

Oh yeah, one last thing: people saying ctp2 s*cks really don't have a clue. (like those people addicted to unreal saying quake s*cks, it just doesn't make sense).
Damn straight! :goodjob:

MP says it for me. But also i think modded CTP2 is probably a more 'finished' game than Civ3(judging by the forums), and that from a game that was also rushed to the shops! What have they done to our beloved tbs 'civ' games :(

well, in CTP2 i had the problem that the AI only attacked my cities in the very beginning of the game.
after that, the AI refused to do so.
id there a solution for this problem?

thanx in advance :)

Yes, download one of the mods. There are many of mods and they all improve the AI a lot but Cradle and World at War have the most aggressive AI. See this thread (http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=48361) on Apolyton for a list of the most important mods for CtP2.

thx alot :)

I would say Civ3 is much better. It's nowhere near perfect, but CTP2 had some major, MAJOR flaws. Examples:
1. Terrible Diplomacy, even if you where three times more powerful, the AI would not agree to any type of treaty.
2. Highly unrealistic combat, 10 tanks losing to one spearmen just because he's in a city is stupid.
3.PW, this is the dumbes idea ever.
4.Way,way,way too much micromanagement. All the cities were like fussy babies.
5.Turns were like 10 minutes long, and that was early game if you didn't know anyone else.

Originally posted by archer_007
I would say Civ3 is much better. It's nowhere near perfect, but CTP2 had some major, MAJOR flaws. Examples:
1. Terrible Diplomacy, even if you where three times more powerful, the AI would not agree to any type of treaty.


True, un-modded diplomacy is crap. We found very early on that by default CTP2 rejects everything. This is now changed in every single mod. Diplomacy is actually very good now. Yes, Civ3 has some better options in diplomacy, but I think CTP2 diplomacy is now more realistic.


2. Highly unrealistic combat, 10 tanks losing to one spearmen just because he's in a city is stupid.

This has been fixed in all the mods too. Balance is achieved. :)


3.PW, this is the dumbes idea ever.

This is a personal issue. I prefer PW to having 200 workers to move every turn.


4.Way,way,way too much micromanagement. All the cities were like fussy babies.

I've never found it to be. Pretty simple really.


5.Turns were like 10 minutes long, and that was early game if you didn't know anyone else.

Geeze, what machine do you play on? An XT? My turns fly through with 16 civs on ultra-gigantic maps till at least 1500AD. And this is only on a P3-666.

All up, my votes on CTP2. At least we got MP and proper MODability. :goodjob:

Originally posted by archer_007

2. Highly unrealistic combat, 10 tanks losing to one spearmen just because he's in a city is stupid.

Actual it is highly unrealistic, too if one spearman kills one tank, too.

Originally posted by archer_007

3.PW, this is the dumbes idea ever.


Actual moving 250 settlers (1 per city) around the world is the dumbest idea ever.

Originally posted by archer_007
4.Way,way,way too much micromanagement. All the cities were like fussy babies.


Hey you have build queues just fill the build queue with a bunch of items and leave the city alone until the build queue is empty. Mayors in Civ2 were stupid so this way I can automate my cities. I don't have to care on them actual this is rather grown up like instead of baby like.

Originally posted by archer_007
5.Turns were like 10 minutes long, and that was early game if you didn't know anyone else.

Ten minutes do you mean watching the AI's unit moves, you can disable this. By the way ten minutes for one turn is nothing if you ever played Civ2 on a gigantic map customized for your advantage. I exploited the non random hut bug and got pritty fast a lot of cities, as I had to move all my settlers I needed to move them one hour including all the caravans. But that wasn't all additional my 486 needed to cycle through all my cities half anhour with disabled popup messages, so I had to check over the city manager if my cities were empty, that is baby like if you have to select everytime when a city nothing has to build and select the new item. In Civ3 settlers were replaced by workers, so this need longer than CTP2 it has a not as powerful city management system as CTP2 (popup messages for everything), so Civ3 is definatly slower than CTP2.

-Martin

Originally posted by archer_007
1. Terrible Diplomacy, even if you where three times more powerful, the AI would not agree to any type of treaty.
As Dale, pointed out, modded CtP2 diplomacy is better (more realistic) than Civ3's diplomacy.
2. Highly unrealistic combat, 10 tanks losing to one spearmen just because he's in a city is stupid.
Are you sure you're not confused with Civ2? In both CtP1 and CtP2, modded or unmodded, it's mathematically impossible for a single Spearman to defeat an army of 10 Tanks. I bothered to do a little test for you: in unmodded CtP1 (which has the most 'unrealistic' combat system of the entire CtP series), in a mountain city with all possible defensive improvements and wonders AND with a fortification even in a pikeman vs 4 tanks battle the pikeman consistently couldn't do more than moderate damage to one of the tanks. I can assure you that Civ3's combat system is a *lot* less realistic than that. In fact, in a recent interview (see Apolyton Column 204), one of the Firaxians admitted they had deliberately made Civ3 combat unrealistic because otherwise strategic resources would be too unbalancing :rolleyes:
3.PW, this is the dumbes idea ever.
What Martin said.
4.Way,way,way too much micromanagement. All the cities were like fussy babies.
:lol: Either you're joking or you never played Civ2. Either way, you obviously haven't discovered the empire manager screens and build queues yet, to name but 2 examples...
5.Turns were like 10 minutes long, and that was early game if you didn't know anyone else.
Hmm, even modded CtP2 (the 'heaviest' game in the CtP series) runs smoothly on my old P200, even with some of the animations enabled and TSRs running in the background. Civ3 even with all fancy extra's disabled on the same system optimized for gaming (no TSRs or anything of the kind) barely runs at all, turns take many minutes... What are you talking about? :confused:

No offense, but it sounds to me like you're just trying to justify to yourself the fact that you actually wasted money on Civ3... :rolleyes:

heh, I've played all the Mod's now and I gotta say that you people rock!!:goodjob:

Med Mod(ver.2.2 i think) : Pretty cool with its new* units and support thing but very annoying sometimes when i pay 50% of my production for those units. Another thing was 30-60 turns to build a settler, in Cradle I can push it up to 15 to 30 turns and still have a decent PW.
Otherwise awesome MOD.

And World at War(ver.1.04) : Wow! Awesome thing, very agressive, I got my ass kicked first 2 times I played it, I heaven't been beaten in this game for a long time.
Some units seems to be over-powered but thats about it.

Now I'm gonna check out Super Apolyton Pack and if I have time play that Game of the Month thing you have on Apolyton.:)

cheers

edit: it seems that I posted in the wrong thread...lol...I need sleep

Originally posted by dalla_boo

edit: it seems that I posted in the wrong thread...lol...I need sleep

Actual you just posted some thoughts about CTP2 and told us something about the modding ability of CTP2, that is a great feature of CTP2 and in this way it isn't in Civ3. So right thread. :)

-Martin

Civ 3 is a horrible slow game that is not worth buying and Call to Power 2 is much faster and much more realistic that civ3 or civ2.

One thing I don't like about Call to Power II is that is I choose to play against 2 civilizations, they WILL be the Americans and the Scots. To see others, I must add more civilizations, but you can't play a game without americans or scots unless they are beaten.

And about diplomacy, I notice that in the early stages of the game they refuse everything, but when time goes on and I am more powerful the americans agree changes or agreements, but the scots remain saying "no". I think it's just they give a little personality to each AI leader.

bwahahaha, the americans your friendly and understanding neighbors, but the scots are evil and aggressive.
right, its a u.s. american game i take it?

If you want to be patriotic, try to make yourself a bit more presentable. You wouldn't like to make me think that Americans are ignorants that don't know how to write, right? Then, correct this details of yours

1) "the americans your friendly and understanding neighbors". That sentence has not meaning. Perhaps it can have if you add an ARE between "americans" and "your"

2) "its a u.s. american game " If that "its" is supposed to be a contraction of "IT IS", then you must write "It's".

3) "i take it?" What did you mean there? If I understand? Then, you should have to say "you", not "I" (and I'm not sure if the verb is correct), and when used to talk about the first singular person "I" always go in a capital letter. And you also should have placed a "," between this question and the sentence that was before.

What a shame, an ignorant indian teaching you how to write your own languaje.

I don't think Morbius is american. I think he's poking fun at the american gaming industry making america the "good guys" all the time. I think...
oh, and 4) you spelt bwahahaha wrong. Its either "Bwuahahaha" or "Mwahahaha"

You can get random civilisations by playing at the third difficulty level or above, the first two will give you non-random civs.
The other way is to open userprofile.txt, find the line NonRandomCivs=Yes and make it NonRandomCivs=No. Then save the file and make it write-protected.

the fan boys and girls of Civ3 have such a hard time playing the CTP series because they are generally aged in that nasty pubesant stage of development and hate people pointing at them saying that they are different... :)

CTP is far removed form Civ3... modded CTP that is.. it is a far more mature and celebreal game that is not affraid to tackle historic subject matter that the mainstream wishes it could pretend never happened..

The mods that are available for CTP2 are works of art!... the sheer work that has been put in to them by the modders is something else!... what champions they are..!

Yeah Civ3 introduces a few good odds and sods.. but it still feels like it was made for teenagers.. i want my meglomania taken seriously!

200+ workers per turn???.. ah good, its time for my root canal work..

Manuvering my large ungrouped invasion army through an enemies territory???.. no no take your time with those plyers mr torturer its not like ive got anything better to do!

If you havent played CTP with any of the mod communities work installed, you havent played CTP.. start with the Apolyton pack v2.0... and you tell me if the A.I doesnt crush you like a worm..

Out-of-the-box civ3 is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY!!! better than out-of-the-box CTP, I hate CTP. That said i can't compare Civ3 to modded CTP as i haven't played a modded CTP.

Edit: I now realise that you meant CTP2 which I haven't played, so no comment there.

Civ 3 is better IMHO

Originally posted by Raw is War?
Out-of-the-box civ3 is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY!!! better than out-of-the-box CTP, I hate CTP. That said i can't compare Civ3 to modded CTP as i haven't played a modded CTP.

Edit: I now realise that you meant CTP2 which I haven't played, so no comment there.

Civ3 may beat CTP2 out of the box, but at least I could play MP with CTP2. With Civ3 you have to buy a whole new game (PTW) and then it's STILL buggy!

So, MP civ playing:
CTP2: $5 bargain bin
Civ3 & PTW: $80 + $45 = $125.

Read the maths!

Then:
CTP2 + Mods (I play SAP2 & WAW) = AI not cheating obviously and a good game (WAW AI still kicks my but)
Civ3 + Mods = What mods? Oh..... you mean those puny little mods that you can write with the "editor"? :lol:

Oh, and MP still works with CTP2 + Mods. Where's Civ3 + Mods MP? :confused:

Dale, actual he is talking about CTP1, but nevertheless you points are also valid fo CTP1 and Civ3. When it comes to MP CTP1 is the game to go. But even the MP features of CTP2 out of the box are much better then the ones of Civ3 out of the box.

And finally to all of you out-of-the-box-players don't tell me Civ3 is much better then CTP2 while you are using the latest patch. A patch is a file out of the internet and not out of the box if you want to compare out of the box games then CTP2 is much better then Civ3. If you start using patches then, you have to accept that you can also use mods to improve a game.

-Martin

Originally posted by Dale


1) Civ3 may beat CTP2 out of the box, but at least I could play MP with CTP2. With Civ3 you have to buy a whole new game (PTW) and then it's STILL buggy!

2)So, MP civ playing:
CTP2: $5 bargain bin
Civ3 & PTW: $80 + $45 = $125.

Read the maths!

3)Then:
CTP2 + Mods (I play SAP2 & WAW) = AI not cheating obviously and a good game (WAW AI still kicks my but)
Civ3 + Mods = What mods? Oh..... you mean those puny little mods that you can write with the "editor"? :lol:

Oh, and MP still works with CTP2 + Mods. Where's Civ3 + Mods MP? :confused:

1)PTW is quite bugfree with latest patch
2)Civ3 was about 40€ for me and PTW less than 30€;)
3)Some great mods for Civ3: DyP, TAM, MEM, TETurkhan ToT, Balancer etc.

I still say that Civ3 is better[civ3] + [ptw] = :worship:

Ville, consider this. Only a year after the Civ 3 release, MP appeared - and it took two patches after that to work right for most people. Geez.

Yes, there are good mods for Civ 3, but people don't play modded MP. Besides, you can't imagine how greater CtP2 mods are. Those can change ANYTHING. Civ 3 players are raving that there's no fixed diplomacy. Hah. CtP2 mods can do (and there are mods that have done) things like radiation after nuke blasts (units lose health in range), migration (well, migration), and many others.

ville:

1)PTW is quite bugfree with latest patch


We've been talking "out of the box" not patched. "Quite bugfree" still implies there's more bugs after the patch. Both CTP2 and Civ3 fail in that respect.


2)Civ3 was about 40€ for me and PTW less than 30€


That's still 70 euro for one game. CTP2 still kicks its but for price. Oh, and my prices are Aussie prices. :)


3)Some great mods for Civ3: DyP, TAM, MEM, TETurkhan ToT, Balancer etc.


You can't do a tenth as much modding as you can in CTP2. Can you rewrite an ENTIRE model from within the game using the built in scripting language? Well? Was that a very tiny sheepish "no"? ;) CTP2 it's very easy to rewrite an entire model in the game, I had the first diplomacy rewrite out a few months after the game was released so I know how easy it is.

Right... to Dale goes the credit of the first mod I've installed for CtP2 I guess... made diplomacy MUCH better.

Originally posted by Ville

1)PTW is quite bugfree with latest patch


And I thought you talked about Civ3 out of the box.

Anyway with the release of the CTP2 source code the fans will make shure that CTP2 is finished and bug free. Yes it is confirmed it is just a question of time.

-Martin