I don't know what the LotR series will hold for Civ4. In Civ3, this series was one of the more challenging and daring series. For Civ4, well, it depends on how good the host player will be at the game! :lol: I think/hope it will eventually get to the same crazy level of variants as the Civ3 version, but only time will tell.

All games in the LotR series will be hosted by me, Arathorn. I generally run 0-2 games at a time. Anyone is welcome to sign up. Most games fill first come, first served, but it all depends on the game (the first LotR Civ4 game, for example, will be different in that regard). Please use this thread for sign-ups and/or rules questions before the game(s) begin.

General rules -- maximal ethics. Do the right thing at the right time. Have fun. Do your best. Be courteous. Etc. etc. etc.

The first Civ4 game will be something very similar to this....

LotR16 -- Happy Halloween
Version: Civ4 out-of-the-box
Civ: Random
Difficulty: Noble (or one level above)
Win condition: Anything goes
Variant(s): NONE
Participants: For the first LotR Civ4 game, priority seating will be given based on the number of previous LotR games played in. Sign-up time will break ties. YOU MUST HAVE THE GAME IN HAND BEFORE SIGNING UP!!! Also, no beta-testers allowed. This rule is on the honor system, but all of us in LotR16 should be playing the game with very few preconceptions (just what we've gained from games on our own)
Start Date: October 31
Sign ups so far: None

Hope to see everybody around!
Arathorn

For those who are interested, here is the history of the LotR series.

LotR1 – Daring Deity
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=17438
Version: Vanilla 1.17
Civ: Egypt
Difficulty: Deity
Variant: None
Roster: Arathorn, Sirian, Toecheese3, Jaffa Tamarin, Charis
Dates: February 28, 2002 - March 20, 2002
Result: Diplomatic win in 1070 AD
Score: 7189
Reasons to read: First deity SG at CFC, see weed by some later greater players, highest scoring LotR game to date, back in the screaming fast tech days

LotR2 – Zealous Zulus
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=19001
Version: Vanilla 1.17 - 1.21
Civ: Zulu
Difficulty: Monarch
Variant: Always war
Roster: Arathorn, Jester, Sirian, cpp1, Toecheese3
Dates: March 25, 2002 – June 11, 2002
Result: Domination win in 1840 AD
Score: ???
Reasons to read: Very first always war game (starting a fun variant), long LONG periods of no front change, almost a 20K culture victory

LotR3 – Emperor Training
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=21176
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=21474
Version: Vanilla 1.21 – 1.29
Civ: Iroquois
Difficulty: Emperor
Variant: Training
Roster: Arathorn, Architect, Brian J, charliehoke, LKendter, D9Phoenix, JMB, JollyRoger
Dates: April 25, 2002 – July 25, 2002
Result: Abandoned in 250 AD in a solid position
Score: N/A
Reasons to read: Few – some discussions of city specialization, micromanagement, and scouting practices

LotR4 – 5CC Conquest (5CCC)
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=26358
Version: Vanilla 1.21 – 1.29
Civ: Japan
Difficulty: Monarch
Variant: 5CCC
Roster: Arathorn, meldor, Jaffa Tamarin, T-hawk
Dates: July 2, 2002 – September 19, 2002
Result: Conquest win in 1645 AD
Score: 2460
Reasons to read: An early 5CCC, some fun city names

LotR5 – Tactless Darius
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=49590
Version: PTW 1.21
Civ: Persia
Difficulty: Deity
Variant: Tactless – no initiating diplomacy or bargaining
Roster: Arathorn, Gothmog, Charis, JMB, T-hawk
Dates: April 3, 2003 – May 22, 2003
Result: Cultural loss in 1824 AD
Score: ???
Reasons to read: Successful early aggression, worker migration, how much no trade hurts, which type of loss will it be, final desperate gasp failing badly

LotR6 – Progressive Paranoia
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=54625
Version: PTW 1.21
Civ: Ottomans
Difficulty: Deity
Variant: Worse diplomacy each age, from no limits to AW
Roster: Arathorn, Gothmog, Skyfish, T-hawk, JMB
Dates: May 29, 2003 – August 4, 2003
Result: Conquest victory in 1854 AD
Score: 5620
Reasons to read: Early dogpile successfully beaten, dry start, the power of sipahi, craziest beachhead in the LotR series, nukes, race to finish

LotR7 – Passive Culturalists
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=59054
Version: PTW 1.21
Civ: Babylon
Difficulty: Deity
Variant: Passive, going for 100K culture victory on deity
Roster: Arathorn, JMB, Skyfish, Gothmog, Bam-Bam
Dates: July 18, 2003 – November 4, 2003
Result: Spaceship loss in 1760 AD
Score: 2800
Reasons to read: Limitations of cultural warfare, the power of a runaway AI

LotR8a – Crazy Celts
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=60779
Version: PTW 1.21 – 1.27
Civ: Celts
Difficulty: Monarch
Variant: Wild, unpredictable roles for each leader
Roster: Arathorn, TriviAl, Snaproll, meldor, Karasu
Dates: August 6, 2003 – November 19, 2003
Result: Domination win in 1882 AD
Score: 5362
Reasons to read: Just for the roles, some good write-ups, a number of hilarious quotes

LotR8b – Irrational Iroquois
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=60782
Version: PTW 1.21
Civ: Iroquois
Difficulty: Regent
Variant: Wild, unpredictable roles for each leader (open game)
Participants: Arathorn, ControlFreak, Sirian, Sullla, Coffee, Puzzlinon, cgannon64, JMB, Northern Pike, Grimjack, JustBen, Shadowfax, T-hawk, LKendter, Skyfish, hotrod0823, Brewster, a space oddity, Dark Savant, Reagan, KELLO, KotatsuNeko, jack merchant, Rik Meleet, ChrTh
Dates: August 6, 2003 – September 27, 2003
Result: Domination win in 1768 AD
Score: 3799
Reasons to read: For the roles, the “camping out” to grab the game, the number of participants, the extreme builder phase at the end

LotR9 – Open eXtreme Variants
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=66265
Version: PTW 1.27
Civ: Persia
Difficulty: Regent
Variant: OCC, AW, Infantry, Despotic, Conquest
Participants: Arathorn, Belisar, T_McC, Deatvert, 6thGenTexan, LKendter, Coffee
Dates: October 17, 2003 – October 21, 2003
Result: Conquest win in 110 BC
Score: 6529
Reasons to read: Quick and fun, lots of variants, IMMORTALS

LotR10 – Scouting Sid
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=67720
Version: C3C 1.00 – 1.12 – 1.13
Civ: Netherlands
Difficulty: Sid
Variant: (see difficulty)
Participants: Arathorn, Bam-Bam, Skyfish, Speaker, Reagan, Gothmog
Date: November 5, 2003 – January 13, 2004
Result: Diplomatic victory in 1585 AD
Score: 6532
Reasons to read: First successful Sid game recorded anywhere to my knowledge, complete early Sid dogpile, Sid victory with no bonus food at start, Sid victory without building the Great Library, nuking the UN site to win by diplomacy, ultra-bombers, breath-taking final 22 turns

LotR11 – Mayan Menace
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=67724
Version: C3C 1.00
Civ: Maya
Difficulty: Demi-god
Variant: Maximum Aggression opponents
Roster: Arathorn, LKendter, Arizona_Steve, Coffee, Belisar
Dates: November 5, 2003 – December 9, 2003
Result: Domination victory in 1395 AD
Score: ???
Reasons to read: Combat, buying armies with cash from captured cities

LotR12 – In AWE of Rome
http://forums.civfanatics.com/archive/index.php/t-75983.html
Version: C3C 1.15
Civ: Rome
Difficulty: Emperor
Variant: Always War (AWE)
Roster: Arathorn, Arizona_Steve, (Ridgelake, T-hawk, Aggie)
Dates: January 19, 2004 – January 20, 2004
Result: Conquest loss in 2800 BC
Score: ??? (very low)
Reason to read: Very short and fast

LotR13 – Schizo SGers
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=86752
Version: C3C 1.15
Civ: Custom (Japan)
Difficulty: Monarch
Variant: Passive Always War
Roster: Arathorn, Kylerean, T-hawk, Arizona_Steve, T_McC
Dates: April 29, 2004 – June 22, 2004
Result: Domination win in 1878 AD
Score: ???
Reason to read: Propaganda, city names, culture flips, resource battles

LotR14 – RAW (and uncut?)
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=92212
Version: C3C 1.22
Civ: Aztecs
Difficulty: Regent
Variant: Always war – 32 civs on a small map, limited armies
Roster: Arathorn, Kylerean, Reagan, T-hawk, Speaker
Dates: June 25, 2004 – July 30, 2004
Result: Domination win in 720 AD
Score: 4570
Reason to read: Earliest SG city sacking, 31 foes in AW, extremely early combat

LotR15 – Open Regent with a Twist
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=92599
Version: C3C 1.22
Civ: China (random)
Difficulty: Regent
Variant: 100 turns of shift-enter at the beginning (LATE start)
Participants: Arathorn, Zwingli, Kylerean, microbe, 6thGenTexan, grs, LKendter, Coilean, SesnofWthr, T_McC, Foresight
Dates: June 29, 2004 – August 1, 2004
Result: Domination win in 1772 AD
Score: 2201
Reason to read: Recovery from a huge hole

Arathorn

Edit: Links fixed, I hope.

Hey Arathorn. Looking forward to "Scouting" Civ4 with you and the rest of the fellowship.

Great list Arathorn :goodjob: I'll have to peruse these SG's and hopefully I'll be equipped to run with you on Civ4!
EDIT: Some of the links are to the wrong threads, ie LotR10-14 all lead to LotR10.

hopefully I'll be equipped to run with you on Civ4!
From what I've seen, Civ4 looks like a whole new ballgame. We'll all be walking a bit before we run. Some general tenets of good play will always hold, and hopefully I've ingrained those, but walking will be the order of the day. Heck, some of us even remember when Charis irrigated deserts before cows! :)

Links should be fixed now. Some fun reads in there. Good memories. Hopefully Civ4 will provide as many or more!

Arathorn

Good stuff Arathorn, hopefully I'll be considered for LotR16 if Civ4 arrives in the UK in time :goodjob:

Daring Deity and Zealous Zulus... Some of my most memorable games.

"Always War" is now a standard game option. :thumbsup:


- Sirian

Sirian, I did note you'd be pretty high on the priority list by virtue of having participated in a number of LotR games....

I feel very humbled, proud, and excited (at the same time) that always war is now a standard option. How cool is that?

Arathorn

In Daring Deity, building the great lighthouse at the beginning startled me. I never thought great players like Sirian, Arathorn, and Charis would get addicted by wonders :eek: .

I feel very humbled, proud, and excited (at the same time) that always war is now a standard option. How cool is that?

When you're ready to try an AW SG, please let me know! I'd be happy to sign up. Nothing like a throwback to the past! Maybe we can get other participants from the original AW game, too.


- Sirian

I wasn't in the original AW SG but I played some quite memorable ones with you Arathorn, I would be thrilled to play again with you my friend !
Looks like I played in 4 LotR SGs as well :)

Alas, in Europe we can not get the game before November 4th at the earliest so that pretty much rules me out for LotR16 :(

I will definitely be lurking. :D

In Daring Deity, building the great lighthouse at the beginning startled me. I never thought great players like Sirian, Arathorn, and Charis would get addicted by wonders :eek: .

Own, that was the first Succession Game win EVER on Deity. The strategies that became cookie-cutter later on Deity didn't come out of nowhere. It was people like Arathorn and Sirian who pushed the envelope, discovered what WERE the best moves to make, and blazed the trails that everyone else would follow later. I always felt sorry for everyone who came along later with Civ3, those who missed out on those first couple months of exploration before certain tried and true strategies developed. We reverse-engineered the entire game eventually; heck, we even found out stuff the Firaxians didn't know about! :lol:

And now we've got a blank canvas again to work with - that's what makes this such an exciting time. The next couple of months are going to be a lot of fun for everyone involved. :D

It was people like Arathorn and Sirian who pushed the envelope, discovered what WERE the best moves to make, and blazed the trails that everyone else would follow later. I always felt sorry for everyone who came along later with Civ3, those who missed out on those first couple months of exploration before certain tried and true strategies developed.

I feel sorry for myself for that reason, though happy that I made it to winning consistently on Monarch without ever getting outside. That excitement of the beginning exploration is invaluable, and I hope I have enough time to really get to take part in it all. And maybe, if I am really lucky, see something, even if it is one little thing, that no one really caught before and changes the way it is played. At least I wouldn't feel as though I was always playing on borrowed ideas, as I do in playing Civ3.

OK, I'm back. Haven't gone out and bought the game yet. I'm sure people will be posting their initial impressions of the game, and hopefully it won't go the way of MOO3. If first impressions looks good, I'll sneak out of work today and try to find it (and probably take the afternoon off!).

Arathorn, we still need to get together for a game. :) I never did play with you in a LotR game, just in some RB games IIRC, but I do remember that we had always meant to get together again and never got around to it... and then I didn't pick up the Civ3 expansions. I doubt I'll be able to sign up for LotR1, but when I do get around to getting Civ4, I'll be sure to look you up.

@Skyfish -- glad to see you back around. I hoped you'd be keeping up on Civ4, even after it went to Take2. I have some very tentative plans for LotR17, but I need a bit of time to adjust to the game first.

@Arizona_Steve -- another "blast from the past" -- good to see you around again, too. I hope your Civ4 copy arrives promptly. Mine's looking pretty good for ~10:00 Central Time tomorrow (but who's counting? :))

@Zed-F -- Definitely! I look forward to it. I don't know if I'll get as many years of gameplay out of Civ4 as I did Civ3, but I think/hope/expect to be here a while.

@the rest -- Happy to have lurkers and I hope the series grows in participants over time!

Arathorn

Own, that was the first Succession Game win EVER on Deity. The strategies that became cookie-cutter later on Deity didn't come out of nowhere. It was people like Arathorn and Sirian who pushed the envelope, discovered what WERE the best moves to make, and blazed the trails that everyone else would follow later. I always felt sorry for everyone who came along later with Civ3, those who missed out on those first couple months of exploration before certain tried and true strategies developed. We reverse-engineered the entire game eventually; heck, we even found out stuff the Firaxians didn't know about! :lol:

And now we've got a blank canvas again to work with - that's what makes this such an exciting time. The next couple of months are going to be a lot of fun for everyone involved. :D

That's why I'm upset I won't be joining the party for a few more months (MBA finished in December, then I have to upgrade the PC at Xmas before I can get the game) ... but I guess reading all the LK and LOTR threads will keep me going until then :goodjob: ... and then we'll be ready for some Training Day Games! :D

I have some very tentative plans for LotR17, but I need a bit of time to adjust to the game first
Just keep a warm place for me in your first Always War SG, we know who the original warriors are ;)

Well, I can officially sign up for LotR16 now. I have Civ4 in my hot little hands. No playing for LONG hours at work first, though. Patience may be a virtue, but I'm craving my vice right about now.

Arathorn

Sign me up too please, Arathorn. :D

Looks like Civ IV is a little slow making its way into the desert wastelands of Arizona. The local gamespot should be getting eight copies in this afternoon, but seven of them have already been reserved. Delivery is also expected this afternoon at Best Buy.

I refuse to shop at Walmart.

I'm going to wait until I get off work this afternoon before I take a drive around my part of the World. I fully expect to have the game in my hands before this evening, but will hold off from signing up until then.

Now that I have the game in hand, I'll sign up please, that is if I don't get bumped by someone. (well, I have an ATI card, so maybe I need to verify it actually works :( )

Working isn't a prerequisite to sign up -- just game in hand! :)

Signed up so far (# of LotR games recorded):
Arathorn (16)
Speaker (2)
grahamiam (0)

Sign-ups will close Oct. 30th sometime. Probably about 5:00 central time.

Additional restrictions probably to be used:
- No worker automation (despite what the manual says, we need to learn to do this right)
- No governors

OK, not so restrictive, but these rules might not hold true in all games.

Arathorn

I've got an ATI card as well. Hopefully this issue will be solved in the next day or two and we can get on to other matters.....

I have the game (nVidia card here, so there should be no problems). Signing up...

nVidia card here, so there should be no problems
"Shocks, pegs, lucky!"

- No governors


That's going to be rough. Not that I use the governors 100% of the time, but if an SG host INSISTED that I micro everything all game long, I'd withdraw my signup. (Er... hypothetically speaking!) :)


- Sirian


EDIT: I do micro my workers, though.

ati card here, and no problems :D running this beautiful game for about 2 hrs with no problems at all.

using catalyst drivers, i think version 5.7. will give a full report to ainwood @ tech in a few minutes

Which ATI card Grahamiam?

ATI Sapphire Radeon 9600 PRO 128MB (Ultimate Edition, the one with the heat pipe instead of a fan)

Grahamiam, check your PM.
(Sorry for the threadjack Arathorn)

A message delivered by cleft stick brings rumors of a new Civ game.

If it ever shows up on store shelves here I might even consider joining in for a game or two.

And hello everyone, btw. Been a while since I had a look round these forums :)

More old home week! Jaffa Tamarin. Good to see you. I do hope to play a game or two with you. Seems like most of the US, Canada, and good chunks of Europe have the game available, with the rest of the world looking like sometime next week being the most likely. Shouldn't have to wait too long!

Signed up so far (# of LotR games recorded):
Arathorn (16)
Speaker (2)
grahamiam (0)
Arizona_Steve (3)

That's enough we'll play for sure.

BTW, my first game (on regent, whatever they're calling it now -- Noble?) is going so well, I'm thinking one level up more strongly at this point. For having little to no clue about the game (haven't even read the manual yet), leading in score nearly the entire game and having had one successful war (and one successful tie), leading in tech, etc., I think it's time to move up! :)

Arathorn

I'm planning to purchase the game today after work. I fear my video card isn't going to be very cooperative, but I hope to be proven wrong. While I'm fully involved in the player-versus-player side of Guild Wars, the opportunity to explore Civ4 with my comrades from previous LotR and RB games is too good to pass-up. If the game works on my machine, you can count me in.

BTW, my first game (on regent, whatever they're calling it now -- Noble?) is going so well, I'm thinking one level up more strongly at this point.

:thumbsup:

The jump to Monarch is the most significant one, as that is the level where the AIs begin with a free worker.

Sulla and I are playing on the level above Noble, too -- and it's a variant.

You won't be long for that level, either, but it's a good choice for Civ3-Deity-capable players with zero to one games under their belt.


Hey Jaffa, Reagan! :wavey:


- Sirian

BTW,

according to this thread

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=133788

there is a fix for all those ATI graphics card users. Seems to be successful. I don't know more than the link.

Arathorn

This just in: go here for a quick fix from Firaxis http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...threadid=140859 . What a great company--fixes a tough problem like this in less than 30 hours! Who's ready to have some fun?!

EDIT- Oops, cross-posted with Arathorn. It worked for my Radeon 9550 card, so I'm going to check it out now.

Reagan's back too! Is another game of the Naked Vikings brewing down the road? :mischief: :cool:

Signed up so far (# of LotR games recorded):
Arathorn (16)
Speaker (2)
grahamiam (0)
Arizona_Steve (3)
Reagan (3)

Roster of 5. Barring an entry in the next ~58 hours, this will be the team. For the one game, though, I want to encourage "old home week", though, so priority seating is still available. (Sorry for semi-offering your spot, grahamiam, but there'll hopefully be lots of opportunities.)

Arathorn

The game of Civ IV, she is mine! :woohoo:

Aside from some strange graphics glitch on the first map I tried, it seems to be working okay. Is it too late to sign up for LotR <whatever number we're at> ?

Will the Monkey Cult ride again? :D :hammer:

Signed up so far (# of LotR games recorded):
Arathorn (16)
Speaker (2)
grahamiam (0)
Arizona_Steve (3)
Reagan (3)
Jaffa Tamarin (2)

grahamiam is the odd man out at this point -- sorry, the next game will be open to all. Roughly 30 hours until sign-ups close.

Update on my first game. Diplomatic victory won the race. I was less than 10 turns from cultural and space as well. I was SO FAR ahead I'm thinking about jumping up 3 levels for my next solo game. LotR16 will run Prince (one level above the even difficulty). I think we'll all be fine.

My opinions on automation... The governor isn't quite as dumb as he used to be and I might allow him some in later games (though I would tell him to emphasize production and still see 3/1/6 squares picked over 1/4/0 squares (food/hammers/commerce) -- and I had excess food). The workers on the other hand, are still stone cold idiots. Irrigating everything in sight -- over towns I had grown to 7 commerce and destroying pastures (WHY?). Killed production and grew my cities to bad health (not a big deal) and unhappiness (a very big deal). I experimented with that and NEVER AGAIN!

@Jaffa -- Nice to have you on board! Not quite "Daring Deity" this time, though. Not yet, anyway....

Arathorn

Just confirming -- I was very persistent yesterday and finally got the guy at Circuit City to go in the back and get me a copy of the game. So . . . I have it now.

LotR16 roster:
Arathorn
Speaker
Arizona_Steve
Reagan
Jaffa Tamarin

Game will start on Halloween (but Oct. 31st where?). Everything will be random, but standard size, continents, Prince, and Raging Barbs, just for something to do.

Arathorn

The workers on the other hand, are still stone cold idiots.:eek: another of the glorious claims has gone done the drains

It's available at:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=135506

News on LotR17 still unavailable....

Arathorn

:eek: another of the glorious claims has gone done the drains

I never claimed the workers were brilliant. I control all of my own workers manually. It's the city governors that have made huge strides.

(Actually, the workers -are- better, too. But they have a certain strategic lean, which is generally commerce-heavy, while human players can choose more widely.)


- Sirian

I never claimed the workers were brilliant.I don't think I ever read claims from you, I was refering to those preview guys from gamespot etc. and IIRC Firaxis developers themselevs

grahamiam is the odd man out at this point -- sorry, the next game will be open to all. Roughly 30 hours until sign-ups close.

News on LotR17 still unavailable....

Arathorn

ok, good luck! i'm sure i'll be interested in the next one :)

LotR16 is started. We're on an island by ourselves, but we have some resources. I think we'll be OK if we don't get TOO far behind in tech vs. the larger continent. Anyway, it's a game going. My current solo Monarch game is won; it's just a matter of how -- I'm probably going to play around with more modern military, to see how it goes. Emperor looks quite doable, but....

LotR17 Dueling Deity
Difficulty Level: Deity

(all the below is my thoughts as of now, but I'm quite flexible -- it's a starting proposal, not a ruleset)
Map size: Small
Map features: Mirror, Reduced Peaks
Mirror Type: Random
Start Separated, but I don't think that will matter -- no teams will be set.
Landmass type: Random (I'd prefer Oceanic for safety, but I want to leave the fear of the AI in our early builds)
Civ: Random
Opponent Civ: Random
Most other things: Default settings
Win Condition(s): All enabled

This is not "Daring Deity"...not yet. This is "Dueling Deity" -- a 1v1 game to get feet wet, to see a deity foe, to get a feel for being way behind, etc. I'm suggesting we go with a small map (instead of tiny or smaller) to give both civs room to expand. I think that's possible anyway. We might choose to limit our expansion before all the land is filled -- that'd be nice in a way.

If we want to make it a bit easier, we could make Conquest the only win condition. But I kind of want to see how they all play out.

Sign-up requirements:
- Any Civ4 win at any difficulty level (honor system)
- A willingness to get smacked around (hopefully, only potentially)
- Thick skin -- all moves will potentially be questioned. This is a learning game and we'll all be out to explain not only WHAT we did, but WHY.
- Ability to consistently meet 24/48 to claim/play.

Roster:
Arathorn
<open>
<open>
<open>
<open>

Arathorn

Hi,


LotR17 Dueling Deity
[...]
This is not "Daring Deity"...not yet. This is "Dueling Deity" -- a 1v1 game to get feet wet,

Is a 1v1 Deity game really easier than a Deity game with more AIs? You cannot trade as well if at all; you won't have friends to drag into wars; and if you are at war you might lack vital resources and cannot trade for them. On the other hand, the tech pace will be slower, and you can found more religions/get key techs/wonders easier - but I don't know if that will be enough compensation.

Not sure if it's easier or harder, just wanted to bring this up...

-Kylearan

It was easier in Civ3. It was the inter-trading that propelled the AIs so far ahead. I don't know whether that will hold true in Civ4 or not. Diplomatically, we won't have to play a guessing game on whom to support. We won't have to worry about two civs hitting us at once. The "total" AI strength is less. I'm not sure whether it will be easier or not, but it's the plan....

Arathorn

It was easier in Civ3. It was the inter-trading that propelled the AIs so far ahead. I don't know whether that will hold true in Civ4 or not. Diplomatically, we won't have to play a guessing game on whom to support. We won't have to worry about two civs hitting us at once. The "total" AI strength is less. I'm not sure whether it will be easier or not, but it's the plan....

Arathorn

Deity has only been beaten thus far in Civ4 by attacking early, on tiny or small maps, with at most two opponents starting on the same landmass. One was a conquest win, the other a spaceship win by a single turn, after wiping out one civ early and befriending the other who started on the same continent.

Don't even fire up Deity on large Highlands with nine civs. (Seriously. Don't. :lol: It... will... get... UGLY!)


- Sirian

this is far over my head (only win was noble but it was a breeze and I really just wanted to familiarize myself with the tech tree), but I'll give it a go. I've thought about this for a bit, and I think it'll be a good learning experience in regards to developing civ4 tactics wrt to war and tech research, even if it gets ugly. plus, me and ugly go a long ways back ;)

As for a civ, instead of Random, should we try an agressive one? (well, we could use something in our favor :lol: )
That would be:
Aztecs - Monty, Spritual
French - Napoleon, Industrious (could fit well)
Greece - Alexander, Philosophical (another possibly good fit)
Inca - HC, Financial
Japan - Toku, Organized (would prefer to avoid)
Mongolia - Genghis, Expansive (additional health would be good at this level)

Subscribing. Not skilled enough in Civ4 for deity play, so don't know if I'd be a good match for game #17. Keep me in mind if you need that last player. I'm certain I'll make the game a challenge for the others involved.

I would be willing to give this a try but to be realistic I would say pick an Archi Map and a finacial civ which should be powerful. Also I'd suggest cutting out barbs (not important but I've always hated them and it would help with expansion). But really I just beat emperor in a space race and it felt like diety/Sid hybrid in civ3 (on a side note I should have lost this as Ceaser was ahead in techs and should have launched, of course I did have more powerful production cities:D ).

Signed up so far for Dueling Deity:
Arathorn
grahamiam
Mark1031
<open>
<open>

Requests for Financial and Oceanic heard. I'm fine with that.

Do we want to allow Conquest as the only victory type, too? Once the tech tree is done, it'll all be about units and units. I've been able to keep a better than 3:1 kill ratio in my games so far, so we'd probably win if we could finish the tech tree, but it'd be a long slog.

One other thing to note. I don't expect to win this game! Back in the Civ3 days, I beat deity solo (a few times) before playing a deity SG. Not so in Civ4. This game will probably be an exercise in public humiliation. If you don't want that, I understand. But "It's way above my head" shouldn't be an excuse. It's way above MY head and I'm sponsoring the game, for crying out loud. :)

Arathorn

I'd prefer all victories enabled. We will need to keep up in research anyway (main reason for financial) or the AI will come crush us with more advanced units and I think we might be able to eek out a space victory. Taking out the diety AI militarily scares me as they are quite improved in battle although it would be fun to try out naval warfare.

Put me in the last position if you need me.

Arathorn,

I'm a long time fan of the LoTR series. I would love to get involved in the Civ4 edition.

I have a Civ4 Prince win as Germany (Frederick), and I'm fresh off of Rat 07 - English Role Play (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=128572).

I'll self-identify my weaknesses in Civ4 as balancing depth/breadth of research (I always feel like I'm on the verge of falling behind in techs), and knowing what to do with workers once all the obvious improvements are done (I still don't see value in cottages/hamlets/towns until much later in the game).

The Deity level is certainly intimidating, but it must be explored, and an understanding that a win is not expected is crucial to making this fun. I think the 1v1 option could open up strategies that would otherwise be impractical.

Frankly, I'm not sure we understand the intricacies of the various leader traits (especially at Deity) to make an informed decision. Same goes for any other setting. So, I'm game for anything. But logic seems to dictate we don't want to share a landmass with our opponent, or else we'll be quickly overrun.

Well, I am not afraid of public humiliation, so sign me up. With exams, I may have to request a skip here and there, though, so if that is a problem, I understand.

Well, looks like I'm too late...

I did do somewhat well on the one Deity game I've tried--pretty much as Sirian said, going as the Mongols and attacking early. Eventually I overextended myself in Medieval and got whacked in early Industrial...but go for it. All your learned heads on it could mean a win.

Dueling Deity roster:
Arathorn
grahamiam
Mark1031
Vol
bed_head7

Random responses:
it would be fun to try out naval warfare
I'm doing a lot of that in my current game right now. Attacking from the sea is kind of nice, because you don't have to worry about your stack (of doom?) being artilleried to death while it's getting into position or after the attack. I've been marining cities, razing them, and then moving on. The cities are rebuilt but they're much smaller and not developed, so I think it's a win. A transport makes round trips to get new suicide artillery for each new city. It's actually pretty effective, although I've not gained land because of it yet. Picked up a bunch of relative population, though, and killed the opponent's research capabilities.

With exams, I may have to request a skip here and there, though, so if that is a problem, I understand.
Requesting a skip is very rarely a problem. It's when people disappear completely that there's a problem. As long as you can monitor the thread enough to know when you're up and keep us up to speed on your ability to play, I'm happy.

Taking out the diety AI militarily scares me as they are quite improved in battle
Yes, they are improved. I still think my personal strength is in this area, though. The AI was SO BAD at military before, even a 100% improvement (roughly what I've seen so far) makes them still well below my tactical ability. That's always been my greatest strength as a Civ player and it doesn't seem to have changed for Civ4.

I will start the game once I have a bit of time. LotR16 takes priority tonight, so it might well be tomorrow. It was a bit late last night (*cough, cough* -- darn Aztec sneak attack in the middle of my Egyptian campaign), but I still feel the itch 24/7 at this point.

Arathorn

LotR17 possibly started at

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=137333

Read the thread to find out more. Something ain't right.

Arathorn

Hi, is it to late to sign up for this (whenever the next available game is?). I've never played succession games before but I've been playing Civ since the original. Please let me know, thanks :)

Hi, is it to late to sign up for this

Too late for LotR16 and LotR17, and still too early for LotR18, which hasn't been announced yet! :lol: Watch this thread -- whatever it is, it'll be announced here first. And, then, it's a free-for-all.

Arathorn

Sign-ups and discussion for LotR18 are now open! Please only sign up if you are willing to discuss the game in some depth before we even begin.

LotR18: No Cottage Challenge
Difficulty: Prince (up to negotiation, but "feels" right to me)
Map type: Custom -- continents with random number -- pretty random
Civ: TBD -- see discussion below
Map size: Standard
Game speed: Standard
Variant: We may never work a tile with a cottage improvement -- no cottages, hamlets, villages, or towns. This will make commerce challenging, to be sure. We can never build them with our workers. If we capture land, we must be sure to pillage the improvements so our new cities can not work cottages.

Kylerean has mentioned that the regular game is still interesting enough that we need not dive off into variants. While I agree, I find that enforcing variants can lead to new and improving styles of play. Personally, I find that I am greatly struggling with making use of specialists. What better way to learn in that area than by requiring them -- they'll be the primary sources of commerce in the game -- scientists and merchants and .... Can we pull it off?

What I envision -- growing cities rapidly and having them support specialists as soon as possible. Maximizing income from trade routes or from specialists or both. Representation is an almost complete MUST for the extra commerce. Statue of Liberty and/or Mercantilism might help. Caste System seems a plus, but if we can build enough regular buildings to specialize cities for science or gold or production or whatever, it might not be necessary. We'd have to play and see.

Certain techs and Civics become almost valueless. Printing Press is not a big rush. Pottery can maybe wait (but granaries are still good). Universal Sufferage and Freedom of Speech are significantly weakened. Emancipation's bonus to cottage growth is gone.

Civ discussion. Traits are going to be key. I'll give my initial thoughts.

Aggressive -- Always a reasonably handy trait. I do think we'll probably need to go to war a bit more than normal in this game. An extra combat I for our pillagers might help them survive. A reasonable choice, in my opinion.

Creative -- Widespread cultural power. I don't see synergy with the variant, but I don't see conflict with it either. Free border expansions are always nice. Probably don't need this and spiritual, though.

Expansive -- 2 health is not always useful. With us wanting to grow our cities a bit larger to support more specialists, it may be very nice. Cheap granaries to help that growth, too? Feels like pretty good synergy to me. Definite possibilities here.

Financial -- non-starter. Absolutely requires cottages to be effective. We'll not want this trait.

Industrious -- Wonders help with commerce on occasion. Extra GPPs. Might help us get Pyramids, which could be crucial (Representation will be key, I believe).

Organized -- Cuts the costs for our hopefully large empire. Larger pops cost more. Our probable Civics are middle-of-the-road cost.

Philosophical -- Feels like good synergy to me. Lots of specialists to give lots of GPPs to give us more potential for keeping up in tech. Use 'em for techs or for their specials or.... But I question the value of Philosophical in some respects. It feels underpowered to me, as an extra few thousand GPPs is only really an extra person or two. But they come earlier, so I dunno.

Spiritual -- I don't foresee a lot of Civics changing. But an early religion or two could provide the cashflow we will need to support our empire. A bit of missionary work and we could potentially roll in cash, to help offset our poor commerce production. It's a possibility.

Roster: -- FULL already! (@11:03 a.m.)
Arathorn
ThERat
Speaker
Jabah
Obormot

No requirements to sign-up, except willingness and time to play and discuss.

Arathorn

I have always wanted to participate in one of your game. This variant sounds challenging. If you have me, that is.

I think philosophical and industrious might help here. Is there any such combination in this game?

I'll bite. My specialist-play needs a ton of work and I've been "limiting" myself by using a lot of financial Civs.

I checked and there is no such combination that I wanted, but Greece has philosophical and aggressive, maybe that is a good combination.

Hi,

I'ld like to be member of the team, if you don't mind, of course...

(like probably some others, I will be away and not able to play around the 25th and between the 29th of dec. and 4th of january)

I have to slightly disagree with your comment on the financial trait. it will be not to bad (and even quite good) for coastal cities (and windmill mountains on river and of course special ressources), so depending on the map (not pangea) we might consider it (not saying we have to have it).

Expansive seems a good idea, we need to grow fast and early & cheap granaries are good.

On the research subjet, going quickly to libraries is necessary as we need their ability to put 2 citizen into research...

Ready (kind of, i am at work) to discuss all that!

Jabah

LotR18 Roster:
Arathorn
thERat
Speaker
Jabah
--open--

There is no philosophical/industrious leader. The synergy of the traits is too strong. Too many GPPs.

Something else we might want to consider is the starting techs. I don't know the tech tree too well yet, but I think getting to Writing for libraries fairly early will be important. What techs enable that?

Contrariwise, if we get spiritual for religion, we can get early priests with temples and use those as our specialists, but they don't provide the research we'll need/want.

We had one vote for Greece -- Phil/Agg.

I'm tending to lean slightly Exp/Phil, which is Peter of the Russians, myself. I do think Phil is a good place to start.

Philosophical leaders:
Saladin of the Arabs (Spi), UU: Horse Camel, starts with Mysticism and Wheel
Mao Zedong of the Chinese (Org), UU: Cho-Ku-Nu, starts with Agriculture and Mining
Elizabeth of England (Fin), UU: Redcoat, starts with Fishing and Mining
Frederick of Germany (Cre), UU: Panzer, starts with Hunting and Mining
Alex of Greeks (Agg), UU: Phalanx, starts with Fishing and Hunting
Peter of Russia (Exp), UU: Cossack, starts with Hunting and Mining

Lots of fishing/hunting/mining going on.

Arathorn

I think philosophical and industrious might help here. Is there any such combination in this game?

Check out the audo interview with Soren, at Apolyton. He mentions this issue in the final part. :)


- Sirian

Something else we might want to consider is the starting techs. I don't know the tech tree too well yet, but I think getting to Writing for libraries fairly early will be important. What techs enable that?

Writing is the most accessible tech in the game. It's the only one with a triple Or-Gate. You can get to it via Priesthood, Pottery, or Animal Husbandry.


- Sirian

Can i join? I also like to discuss first, then play :)

Peter and Alex do look like best choices and either one is fine with me. As for the techs, i think best starting techs depend largely on the starting position.

Well, that didn't take long. Roster full.

LotR18 Roster:
Arathorn
ThERat
Speaker
Jabah
Obormot

Continue discussion of civ. Do we want to try to grab an early religion or not? I'm tending to think not, but that potential of 4-20 gpt is hard to pass up. Our capital could be a cash city.

Writing is easy. Pottery seems unlikely, since it hard requires Wheel and only Saladin amongst Philosophical starts with that. Animal Husbandry comes with either Hunting or Agriculture, so all but Elizabeth and Saladin can do that as the first tech (if so desired). Priesthood is the third route in, but that's after Polytheism or Meditation, so second line at best. Bottom line, all the Philosophical civs except Elizabeth can research Writing as their 2nd tech. And we might even go that way.

Other thoughts/ideas/concerns? I mean, obviously, it's going to depend on our opening position. If we have wheat, corn, and rice around our capital, I think I'll go for Agriculture first, regardless. But some plans somewhat survive first contact.

I'm also thinking that we'll want to have some cities with markets, grocers, and banks, running all merchants. But a majority of cities with libraries, universities, observatories running a ton of scientists. At least, that's what I think now. Maybe we'll be best served mining everything and bonking heads, but I tend to doubt it. Philosophical gets us double-speed universities, too, which is great. We'll want to take advantage of that, because universities provide for more specialists, too.

Hmmm....

Arathorn

Neat idea.

Just a data point: I won my first Prince game (as Frederick) without any cottages (well almost none), because I didn't "get" them. They seemed worthless to me at the time, so I didn't build any. In retrospect, I was able to win that game by having lots of land on rivers and having the Colossus and working coastal tiles. Of course, this was all assisted by being alone on a pretty decent sized chunk of land.

Assuming you don't get miraculous land, this should be very interesting to watch. I'd suggest going with at most 2 continents. An archipelago, coupled with Financial, would make cottages completely unnecessary. So to make this variant have teeth, avoid excessive amounts of coastline and obviously don't pick Financial.

I think we would want to adopt Caste System at some point. Libs. markets and the like are pretty useless for us, since our base commerce will be low and 25% of that will only add 1 or 2 beakers. I would only build those in towns with a several gold/gem mines or other commerce bonuses. Wasting so many shields just to support many scientists when we can just adopt Caste System is a waste imho. The benefit of that civic is huge for this variant. So we need to get to CoL ASAP. This also means that we have a shot at getting Confucianism. The question there is how to get there fast. I don't remember the tech tree, but i think there is a more or less short way of getting there. The tech itself is quite expensive, maybe we can use Oracle to get it. This should work good if we have marble.

I would research the farming techs that are apropriate for our staring position first, then maybe BW for chops and axemen to fight barbs. If we don't have copper we may go for archery. After that go for Caste system.

Libraries and other improvements that boost shields, coins, beakers work on specialists, too.

Is the commerce (gold, shields, beakers) generated by a specialist subject to the modifier buildings. If we have a city running 3 scientists, are those beakers then multiplied by 25% with a library?

EDIT- Sirian got there before I could spit it out. That's what I thought.

Libraries and other improvements that boost shields, coins, beakers work on specialists, too.

OK, thanks, Sirian. I assumed that it was like in civ3 and was too lasy to test it myself. Then libs are certainly not useless, but still Caste System looks like a great choice for us.

And i have another similar question then: how abuot money from palace and the religious shrine? I noticed an oddity here, but maybe i am wrong. Coins from palace are allocated towards commerce/scence/culture depending on the sliders, but coins from shrines seem to go dircetly to commerce. And i also haven't tested if they are multiplied by libs/markets are not.

OK, thanks, Sirian. I assumed that it was like in civ3 and was too lasy to test it myself. Then libs are certainly not useless, but still Caste System looks like a great choice for us.

And i have another similar question then: how abuot money from palace and the religious shrine? I noticed an oddity here, but maybe i am wrong. Coins from palace are allocated towards commerce/scence/culture depending on the sliders, but coins from shrines seem to go dircetly to commerce. And i also haven't tested if they are multiplied by libs/markets are not.

Shrine income goes to coins, period. Yes it is multiplied by improvements. (That's the whole point of the Hydra, to put multiple shrines in one city so they all overlap with Wall Street).


- Sirian

One of the least understandable flaws in Civ4, IMO, is the use of the same symbol to mean two different things. One is commerce, which is divided up by the slider and generally goes to beakers. The second is gold, which is the subset of commerce that is not used by science or culture. They have the same symbol.

As I recall, the palace produces commerce, so your starting city is reasonably strong. Shrines produce gold (coins, as Sirian calls them). Markets, banks, grocers, etc. all affect gold, I think, but I'm not sure because I haven't tested and the interface doesn't tell you. It's a critical difference and it baffles me why the difference wasn't made to display clearly.

That said, buildings definitely do affect the input from specialists. A scientist in a city all alone produces 3 beakers. With a library, it's closer to 4. Add in Representation and it's 6 base, libraried to 7.5. That's on a par with town income, which is why I think we have a respectable chance.

Another issue we may have is whether to build up one "super scientist" city with an Academy and all the great people scientists we can merge in, or spread the academies out.

I really anticipate a fair number of interesting strategic questions like this to arise, which is why I'm wanting to run this variant! :) But we're not any closer to picking a civ.

As for Code of Laws, it hard requires Writing and then either Currency or Priesthood. Priesthood can be had fairly cheaply. Writing leads to Math leads to Currency, too. Currency also gives the extra trade route per city, which is generally a breakpoint at which more expansion can occur. A not-quite direct beeline to CoL via Currency might be good, if expensive.

Arathorn

On the religion subject.

If we start with mysticism, we should try (and should manage on Prince) to get one, mainly for the income, as Sirian said these coins are multiplied by all the proper building and will be very welcome.

In my latest games (Monarch level), even while founding a (early or not) religion, I used to wait a lot before converting to it (or in once not at all), as the little benefit it was was not worth the negativ impact on AI relation.... (was 'sneak attack' in the middle age by my neighbour India with same religion and +15 friendly relation out of the blue anyway, but that is another story...).
I am more in favor of trying to get multiple religions to my cities (even if it means money for some AI) and staying in a 'no official' religion.

Caste system is really a must have, otherwie, we will be with 2 scientist at max for quite a long time.

We also should try to get ASAP, the tech that allow to pass irrigation thru farms, as there won't be much improvement to bring to 'dry' grasslands or plains..

On another subject, how do we want to win...
Cultural could be fun without cottage but with lots of GP.
Military, then we should get an Aggr civ.
Launch, just to prove we can research all the techs...

Jabah

Good question, Jabah.

All the cultural wins I've seen (OK, not that many, but still) have relied on cranking the cultural slider WAY the heck up towards the end to get the necessary culture. I don't think we can do that. What we *could* do, though, is pack in a bunch of artists and hope for good multiplication effects. It would probably also require a great artist strategy. To me, this seems like something that has to be decided on too early. I'm open to thoughts on it, though.

Military -- sure! Once composites comes in, the world would be ours for the taking. I'd wager under 50 turns for complete domination. Of course, aggressive doesn't help the later units, only melee and gunpowder. Still, might be the way to go. I tend to think we may have more hammers than typical, so putting those into military might be a good way to go. Also, captured lands get up to speed fast, even after pillaging, if you're not worried about the cottage-type improvements.

Launch -- always good. Much like domination felt like the default victory of Civ III, I think launch is the no-effort win of Civ4. You just kinda fall into it. Not something I would think we necessarily need to plan for early, but....

Diplomatic -- the one you didn't mention. We might have a lot of population, although probably not enough for backdoor domination. BUT, we could try to gain a close ally (or two) and try to use that as a win. The UN tech isn't too ridiculously far into the tree, so it would be a definite likelihood to build it.

I dunno. I tend to think that cultural isn't the way to go. I also think the rest are similar enough that we need not decide now. I've actually found Creative to be one of the best for domination victories anyway. <Shrug> But I'm far from an expert on any of these matters for Civ4.

Arathorn

Cultural victory would be extremely difficult with no cottages. We would need a lot of great artists and that means makinf artist specialists instead of scientists, which means that we won't be able to research fast at all. Any of the other victories are fine with me.

As for an early religion, i am an aggressive player and i like to grab a holy city or two from my neighbours, but maybe we can go of hinduism because with such world settings you can never be sure that there will be a holy city on our continent at all. I think an early religion is good when you are isolated because this is the only way to get one for happiness and the religious civics, but not such a good idea when you have neighbours as going for a religion slows growth and may give AI neighbour an edge over you, also it spoils relations, while you can the happiness and good relations from an imported religion. We don't what will be the case, of course, but i would suggest not to go for an early religion, since we are going to beeline to CoL anyway.

Hi,

interesting game! I know what I've said about variants, but I would have joined anyway if I hadn't been in 2 SGs already... :rolleyes:

It will be interesting to see if you will really use more specialists. Somehow in my games, there's always a building in production which would do a certain job better than a specialist (uni vs scientist, forge vs engineer etc.), and putting all citizens to work is normally better to complete the building fast than hiring a specialist. That's especially true for the first two thirds of the game; I use specialists there mainly for GPP accumulation, with the odd scientist maybe being an exception. So I might learn something lurking in your game...

I'm not sure if Prince isn't a bit too easy for this, but maybe I'm wrong. :)

I guess you will use windmills and watermills more often than usual, and the techs which upgrade them (especially giving them +commerce) might become a valuable goal.

All the cultural wins I've seen (OK, not that many, but still) have relied on cranking the cultural slider WAY the heck up towards the end to get the necessary culture.
In my Monarch 3CC culture win I used the culture slider only very late in the modern age, and only because there was nothing more to research for me. I would have won with great artists alone as well, so without the 3CC restriction I'm sure you would do fine without touching the slider. But yes, you would have to go for that from the beginning, and it might distract you from your main goal (learning how to use specialists).

-Kylearan

What does LoTR stand for? I looked through some of the old strains under CIV3 never saw an explination. Lord of The Rings jumps in my head, thanks for clarification!

LotR= Lord of the Rings

"That is no mere Ranger. That is Aragorn, son of Arathorn (the Civilization 4 player)!"

Hi,

"That is no mere Ranger. That is Aragorn, son of Arathorn (the Civilization 4 player)!"
Yep, Aragorn had to learn the art of war from someone, right? :lol:

-Kylearan

Good question, Jabah.

Military -- sure! Once composites comes in, the world would be ours for the taking. I'd wager under 50 turns for complete domination. Of course, aggressive doesn't help the later units, only melee and gunpowder. Still, might be the way to go. I tend to think we may have more hammers than typical, so putting those into military might be a good way to go. Also, captured lands get up to speed fast, even after pillaging, if you're not worried about the cottage-type improvements.


Arathorn

Strangely enough, modern infantry (AFAIR) are getting the bonus, they might still be gunpowered units (or were pre-patched)...

For the cultural victory, the one I had were quite the reverse of what I read, mine were almost buildings and cultural slider only (NO GP). So I wanted to see if you could do it the other way :-) ...

Jabah

Mechanized Infantry are Gunpowder units, oddly enough.

Well I am jealous how fast this one filled up. ;)

OTOH, not being able to browse at work bites and I didn't even have a debate about the opening.

On the subject of religions: I am using the following slingshot strategy a lot: If you start without mysticism, early religions are pretty hard to get. So, I aim at CoL (which gives Confucianism).
The way to get there, is to build the Oracle with priesthood (via mysticism + meditation) and choose the free CoL tech. On prince level, this can easily be achieved. Before I go for that, I would go for BW to be able to chop forests. With chops a lot can be sped up. In fact the first build I chose is a worker and research BW. The worker will then chop forests to churn out 1 more worker and eventually a settler. The times in between are used to grow the city and get warriors. Since writing is needed for the CoL slingshot, archery is taken as an intermediate step. This helps to fend off barbs.

Of course, this strategy needs some allowance for the starting positions (depending on cows/horses or maybe wheat). there is enough time to get some optional techs with this strategy and it almost 100% works on prince.

@Arathorn's complaint:
I recommend suporstar's mod (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=3370089#post3370089) which replaces the coin with a stack of coins for gold (as opposed to commerce, which is still the gold coin).

Sign-ups and discussion for LotR18 are now open! Please only sign up if you are willing to discuss the game in some depth before we even begin.

LotR18: No Cottage Challenge
Difficulty: Prince (up to negotiation, but "feels" right to me)
Map type: Custom -- continents with random number -- pretty random
Civ: TBD -- see discussion below
Map size: Standard
Game speed: Standard
Variant: We may never work a tile with a cottage improvement -- no cottages, hamlets, villages, or towns. This will make commerce challenging, to be sure. We can never build them with our workers. If we capture land, we must be sure to pillage the improvements so our new cities can not work cottages.



I feel that this is hardly a variant, because I am developing the same strategy in my solo immortal game. :)

Assuming equivalent usefulness of engineer and scientist, we can deduce that 1 hammer is worth 1.5 gold. With representation from pyramids, a specialist is worth 6 beakers or 2 hammers + 3 beakers, generally 6 gold. A pop needs 2 food, so 1 food is worth 3 gold. Therefore, if a tile generates f food, h hammer, and c commerce, its value is 3*f+1.5*h+c gold. To determine whether we want a citizen to work the tile, we compare this value with the 6 gold and 3 GPP from a specialist (without considering happiness and health issues). The conclusions are:

1. A tile with >=3 food is always worthy to work.

2. A resource tile with approriate improvement is in most cases worthy to work, but not always. For example, a fur on tundra generates nothing but 4 gold, which is too few.

3. A normal (no resource) tile with 0 or 1 food is in most cases not worth working.

4. A normal tile with 2 food becomes interesting. It can sustain a citizen by itself, so would we like to put a citizen there and let city grow faster, or let city grow slower or be stagnant and get 3 GPP? My current idea is: if besides the 2 food, the tile generates just 1 gold or 1 hammer (e.g., ocean, grassland forest), then it's not as useful as 3 GPP. Otherwise, working the tile is better.

Therefore, some general ideas about strategies:

1. Early on, farm every riverside tile. After learning civil service, farm non-river grassland tiles.

2. If a city exceeds its happiness or health limit, do pop rush. Pop rush becomes amazingly efficient in civ 4, because it only makes 1 unhappiness. For this purpose, expansive trait is nice thankful to cheap granary. :D

3. Build watermill after it's available, just note to keep the fresh water network for inland farms. This makes financial trait still useful for no cottage, since waterwill and sea tiles generate 2 gold. Even not financial, the 2 gold and 2 hammer from watermill is still nice.

4. State property? A non-river non-tree flatland tile can only have 2 improvements: cottage and workshop. Since cottage is no-no, the only option is workshop. With best techs, it makes 3 hammers but -1 food. However, under state property, the -1 food is recovered, therefore a workshop is as good as a lumbermill (both +3 hammer). State property also adds 1 food for watermill, and eliminates distance maintenance, and has no upkeep, -- just too cool! Well, pity for the free specialist from mercantillism ...

5. If you really want to stay at mercantillism, then you should keep most non-river trees for future lumbermills.

All in all, I think that emphasizing specialist and pop rush over cottage is a very viable strategy. Well, if you insist zero cottage, that's a bit variant, but probably not too much. :)

Arathorn, maybe you roll a start once we decided which Civ to choose and then we can discuss the opening strategy depending on the situation.

It really depends on which type of resources we have closeby (+ how much forest)

Go with Peter.

Go with Peter. :eek: hey this is unfair, influencing our decision when I wanted Alex :gripe:

anyway, both are fine with me ;)

Interesting analyses, Heroes. However i am a bit confused. You say that specialists are more effective then cottages? But let's say we have 2 grassland tiles: we can either build 2 farms and support one specialist - 3 beakers, 6 with representation or have 2 cottages - 8 food eventually, 10 with commercial civ. Cottages seem to be more effective, not to mention that you can only build farms near fresh water in the early game and that you need more pop (which is limited by happiness) with specialists then with cottages. And comparing beakers to shields doesn't make sense because their relative value depends on the circumstances. But you made a good point about the pyramids. I think we may want to build that wonder. Actually with representation specialists are almost as effective as cottages. Maybe we can bump the level up by a notch or two.

Just a quick update, I will be away this WE going early saturday morning and back sunday late (western europe time).
If might be able to check if there is any news tonight and participate in any discussion at this point, but don't wait for me during the WE.

Regarding the civ, I have no problem neither with Peter nor Alex (I have never played them). If possible I'ld like to avoid Saladin as i am playing him on a private game right now.

Jabah

Will roll a start with Peter tonight (after the kids are in bed, probably) and post it. We can then discuss. If the approach looks obvious, I may just play my turns, too.

If time permits, I'll roll and post the start earlier and play later in the evening, though.

Arathorn

Slot me in toward the end of the roster, if you don't mind. I have a hectic weekend as well.

LotR18 is started at http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=145463

Please comment. I plan to play later tonight, after LotR16. But I'll read before I play.

Arathorn

Interesting analyses, Heroes. However i am a bit confused. You say that specialists are more effective then cottages? But let's say we have 2 grassland tiles: we can either build 2 farms and support one specialist - 3 beakers, 6 with representation or have 2 cottages - 8 food eventually, 10 with commercial civ. Cottages seem to be more effective, not to mention that you can only build farms near fresh water in the early game and that you need more pop (which is limited by happiness) with specialists then with cottages. And comparing beakers to shields doesn't make sense because their relative value depends on the circumstances. But you made a good point about the pyramids. I think we may want to build that wonder. Actually with representation specialists are almost as effective as cottages. Maybe we can bump the level up by a notch or two.

I think the comparison should be like this. Say there are 3 grassland tiles, you can either farm 2 and support 1 specialist, getting 6 beaker and 3 GPP, or cottage 3, getting 3 gold in the first 10 turns, 6 gold in turns 11-30, 9 gold in turns 31-70, 12 gold from turn 71, and more when you learn some techs and adopt some civics. Well, when you learn biology, farm becomes more efficient too, so you can get 1.5 specialists from the 3 tiles, making 9 beaker and 4.5 GPP. But the key stage is the early eras, so let's forget about those advanced techs and civics. We see that in term of production, 1 specialist is better than 3 cottages in the beginning 10 turns, becomes equal in turns 11-30, inferior from turn 31, -- while to make up the disadvantage of 3 cottages in the first 10 turns, total production of the 2 options becomes equal only at turn 40. From turn 41 3 cottages are surely better than 1 specialist in production, -- but how to value the 120 GPP accumulated in this period?

-- but how to value the 120 GPP accumulated in this period?

Indeed. :D

Sid's classic style of "interesting choices", which Soren has a good hand at crafting.


- Sirian

*twiddles thumbs, waiting for LotR19*

Can I sign up in advance? :)

Here's the deal. I can't decide exactly which game concept I want to do for 19. And I'm thinking about 20, too. Plus, I'm actually at work and it's taking time today. I hope to make some decision over lunch.

Arathorn

LotR19 Epic Immortality
Map: Inland Sea, standard size, temperate
Game speed: Epic
Civilization/leader: Victoria of the English (Fin/Exp) and redcoat UU
Win goal: Yes, we want to win
Difficulty level: Immortal
Variants: Map and difficulty only, plus Epic speed
Other notes: Might be a major length of time commitment. First round will be 20 turns/player (I'll take 30-40 to open the game) but then we'll go back to 10/player.
Demonstrated Expertise: None required but only sign up if you'd play an Immortal game solo

Roster:
Arathorn
-open-
-open-
-open-
-open-




LotR20: Wild War
Map: TBD between hub, maze, and ring
Game speed: Normal
Civilization/leader: Napoleon (Agg/Ind) of the French (UU: musketeer)
Win goal: Yes, I'd like to (Conquests first choice, but...)
Difficulty level: Prince
Variant: Always war
Other Notes: My first Civ4 AW game. The map choices above provide a very small, limited front, which should allow for good concentration of forces. When Astronomy becomes known, though, more routes will open up and we'll have to worry about backlines more again. I think it should be an interesting way to start my Civ4 AW career.
Key note: If signing up for LotR20, you must specify a map preference. Attempted sign-ups without a map choice will be ignored. See http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=134226 for more info on the map types.
Demonstrated Expertise: Must have read "Combat Explained..." (honor system) before first round. Else, none required.

Roster:
Arathorn
-open-
-open-
-open-
-open-


With both games, please be reasonable about signing up. :smoke: is not clear, but let's try to avoid it. I don't think either of these will be easy games. But I do think both are reasonable.

Arathorn

Think I'll just spectate both. Should be very entertaining.

What timeframe are you expecting to start these games? I'd like to join the AW game but I am not expecting to get Civ4 until Christmas. If you slotted me in on the last spot and if I skipped the first go-around, would that work? Or would you prefer to pick up another player who'll be ready sooner?

Obviously I have no Civ4 experience yet but was a Deity-capable Civ3 player, have been following the forum games, and have read the Combat Explained thread.

Hi,

I'd like to join the immortal game. I've playing immortal solo at the moment; first try ended in a conquest (...loss, not win :p ), current game goes better, but I'm not sure how it will end eventually. One declaration of war can change a lot on immortal... :eek:

In my solo games I'm not nearly as careful playing as in SGs, so this might be a good time for my first immortal win. :)

-Kylearan

LotR19: Demonstrated Expertise: None required but only sign up if you'd play an Immortal game solo

Well, that rules me out. I don't play Civ solo :)

Anyway, an AW game seems more appealing at this point, so count this as a sign-up for LotR20. And I promise to have read the Compat Explained thread before I play. Monkey's honor!

Oh, and map choice: Maze.

I expect a LOT of turbulence over the XMas holidays. Being around, with game, during them, is NOT a requirement at all. Heck, I know people who are taking off for XMas vacation during this week. The slotting and skipping is not a problem.

My concern, Zed, is whether Civ4 will play on your machine. Civ4 seems to be reasonably finicky. My machine ain't top-notch, but it runs like a champ (better than Civ3 ever did). But, Reagan, with an ostensibly better machine, had crash problems, black terrain, and all kinds of things. Do you know that Civ4 will run? That's a major concern.

I was planning on starting these once sign-ups fill. This afternoon, actually, after work (and after LotR18), would be ideal. Wife's taking the kids to practice so I'll have a bit of time alone. Plenty to start a game or two. And I've finished Epic 1, now, so there's nothing competing for my Civ4 time. I'm taking a wait-and-see approach on sign-up volume, though. Never can predict it. Of course, Zed, your sign-up is incomplete. There's no map preference stated. :)

LotR19
Arathorn
Kylerean
-open-
-open-
-open-

LotR20
Arathorn
Jaffa Tamarin -- maze (I hope the Monkey's honor is good)
-open-
-open-
-open-

@Kylerean: I tend to pay more attention in SGs, too, but there's a coordination issue that's greater in Civ4 than in Civ3. Not sure where my overall "better" turns can be found, in fitting a larger goal.

@Jaffa: Did you ever read the "Monkey Cult" civ3 games? LotR8, as I recall. Your ideas were blatantly stolen and made into a really fun pair of games! I recommend 'em for you (after "Combat Explained...")

Arathorn

I'll say maze as well, though I won't pretend my opinion on which map to pick is an informed one! :D

I should think my system will run the game as I don't have any unusual components or bleeding edge tech therein. I actually have the game now but as it's supposed to be wrapped and waiting under the tree, it's not installed yet... I could give installation a go I suppose and make sure it works. (One step further along on the path of temptation!) ;)

I'm up for LotR20. I think the hub map would be interesting although any choice will do, since I've not tried any of them in my solo games yet.

Hi,

I'd like to sign up for #19. I play mostly mp games and some single player and wanted to try out a succession game. Fairly familiar with inland sea because it is a very nice MP map and I have played and beaten immortal difficulty before though my personal preference is emperor just because immortal and deity games tend to be more about military confrontation early and often whereas at emperor I usually have the whole gamut of choices on how to pursue early development.

I would like to do LOTR19. I haven't beaten immortal yet but I do well on emperor.

LotR19
Arathorn
Kylerean
Islandia (Welcome to the SG community!)
Shillen
-open-

LotR20
Arathorn
Jaffa Tamarin -- maze (I hope the Monkey's honor is good)
Zed-F -- maze
Arizona_Steve -- hub
-open-

Still one spot open in each game!

Arathorn

I will sign up for Lotro20.

Maze sounds interesting, but all are fine.

LotR20 is full. Map will be a maze (ing). Will hopefully generate today yet.

Roster:
Arathorn
Jaffa Tamarin
Arizona_Steve
Greebley
Zed-F (skip until 12/26 or so)

I hope we have minerals nearby.

Arathorn

If you don't have minerals nearby, at least you know who's to blame for the map script. :D

Arathorn, with some games ending soon, I'd like to try immortal difficulty if you have me

LotR20 is started. It's at

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=3443208

Jaffa is up.

LotR19 roster is full. Game will hopefully start tonight, but not until later.

LotR19
Arathorn
Kylerean
Islandia (Welcome to the SG community!)
Shillen
ThERat

Arathorn

Epic Immortality started!

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=147428

Looks challenging, to say the least.

Arathorn

If you don't have minerals nearby, at least you know who's to blame for the map script. :D

:eek: I didn't know I was going to get audited by the Interior Department, Office of Surface Mining. :lol:

How about blame the dice instead? :cool:


- Sirian

Ooops, 2 SGs full in 4 hours hey ?
Why didnt the subscription email work...
:(

Arathorn, any new game planned? Your games are the most enjoyable I played for Civ4.

Would love to try another if you come up with a great idea. :)

I'd be up for another game as well. I'd like to try another immortal game but try for a different victory condition. I don't think we're ready for deity unless we played it on a smaller map.

Sign-ups for LotR22 are now open. I don't accept pre-sign-ups (too complicated for me to keep track of).

LotR22 Insane Izzy
Difficulty: Prince (Noble?)
Map Script: TBD (Pangea? Terra? I dunno)
Civilization: Spain (under Isobella)
Opponents: Random (6)
Map Size: Standard
Variant: Religion Fanatic (see below) We all know Izzy is a religious fanatic -- now we'll take it to the extreme!
Start Date: Jan. 27th, probably.

Roster:
Arathorn
-open-
-open-
-open-
-open-

Religion Fanatic (subject to modification/clarification) –

One religion to rule them all, one religion to find them,
One religion to crush them all, and to the Light bind them.

- The first religion in any of our cities becomes The One True Religion. It is best to be the founder of this religion, I would think.
- All other religions are evil and must be exterminated. The goal is 100% following of The One True Religion (TOTR). Any city following any religion other than TOTR must be razed to the ground.
- Cities following only TOTR must be allowed to live in peace and harmony. If they choose to flip to the player, that’s fine, but they MAY NOT be attacked.
- We may never spread any religion other than TOTR.
- We may never be in the Free Religion Civic.
- Any victory condition where TOTR is 100% in F7 is fine.
- We may only militarily ally with nations following TOTR. We may ally with them even if they have some cities following things other than TOTR (but we’ll have to attack them later, note).
- All Prophets follow TOTR. The first prophet must either discover the tech for TOTR (e.g., Theology to found Christianity) or build the Shrine for TOTR. Any later Prophets must be joined to the Holy City as super-specialists.

Tactical notes:
- If one of OUR cities starts to follow something other than TOTR, we will have to find a way to have it razed. I think giving it away and then attacking will allow us to raze it, but that should be verified before the game starts.
- Theocracy (for no spreading of non-state religion) and/or Organized Religion (to allow missionaries to be built in any city) would seem to be the Religious Civics of choice.
- Late religions spread naturally more easily than early religions, but I think we’ll want an early religion, to get a head start on things.
- Hydra is very VERY bad. If the holy city for TOTR gets another religion, we will have to raze it! :eek:
- Founding more than one religion is an interesting dilemma. In one sense, we can limit its spread, but, in another, we’ll have to raze one of our cities because of the abomination. And, if it becomes a hydra situation – YIKES!

Arathorn

Well I finally get an Arathorn game that is at a level I can handle. This is totally warped, but fun. At least I fell I can contribute hear, unlike dueling deity...

Sign me up.

Sounds quite interesting, especially knowing that even in Theocracy, other religions might spread on their own, resulting in nightmare situation, (religious bloodbath inquisition inside Spain, you must be joking...).

One minor rule point. Do you have to raze other religious cities, but do you have to do it ASAP (declare war and all, which might almost be always war with civil war as well), or just when you happen to be at war and 'capture' them.

For flavour, I would add the next rule: as soon as you know of another holy city, declare war and raze it.

I am in 2SG already, but probably could manage 3 if you want me in the team.

Regarding level, noble might be a problem in the way that if we want only ONE religion, we will have to do 'strange' research to avoid founding another one...

Jabah

Sounds quite interesting, especially knowing that even in Theocracy, other religions might spread on their own

Only if the city doesn't already have a religion. We can send out settler trios (settler, defender, missionary) to hopefully avoid that situation. It would make sense to me to do so, anyway. Theocracy prevents missionaries from hurting us, though.

Do you have to raze other religious cities

Well, they can't be captured, if that's what you mean. You must raze them, but...

do you have to do it ASAP

No, it does not have to be ASAP. You can see other religions and just put them "on the list", as it were. Occasionally, speed might be a benefit (if we can squash a religion before it starts spreading, that could be very helpful), but it's an end-game goal of 100% of TOTR, not all game, necessarily.

For flavour, I would had the next rule, as soon as you know of another holy city, declare war and raze it.

I debated this, but I decided against it, initially. If the team thinks it's a good idea, we can add it. I'd maybe change it to, as soon as we know where a Shrine is, we must go raze that city.

I am in 2SG, but probably could manage 3 if you want me in the team.

Is that a sign-up or not? Of course I would like to have you on the team, but that's true of a LOT of people at CFC. Please clarify your intentions.

@LK: You're in.

Roster:
Arathorn
LKendter
Jabah??
-open-
-open-

Arathorn

Hi,

sounds crazy. :crazyeye: If this game will be on Prince or above, sign me up! If it's below Prince, not.

What about game speed? Lots of war would suggest Epic speed, although I'm not sure what kind of problems 1.52 has introduced for that speed, as Sirian suggested.

If it's normal speed, I'd prefer a pangea map.

-Kylearan

Is that a sign-up or not? Of course I would like to have you on the team, but that's true of a LOT of people at CFC. Please clarify your intentions.

Arathorn

Yes, it is a sign-up even if it was not as clear as I thought :D

Jabah

I'm glad you don't accept pre-signups since I really don't have the time for another SG and I'm not sure why I posted that I would be up for another one. I guess I was too excited about our LOTR19 win at the time. I wish you luck with this SG, I don't think it will be easy at all. I would make sure to found one of the early religions instead of a late one, as you might get one spread to you before founding your own and then you're stuck with using that as the one religion. When founding new cities make sure to send a missionary with the settler always, because brand new cities always get natural religion spread to them, provided there's a trade route of some sort.

edit: As for getting religion spread to you naturally in a theocracy, I think natural religion spread can only occur in a city that has no other religion. So you should be safe once you're in a theocracy.

Roster:
Arathorn
LKendter
Jabah
Kylearan (Prince only)
-open-

I think this will be very tough, if we try to go above Prince. Looks like Prince is the choice then.

Thoughts on speed? I hadn't said. I was thinking Normal, but I prefer Epic. Normal games just allow more to be played, and I'm still really experimenting with Civ4. I feel lost as often as not, still, so I'm trying to get more games in.

What do the other players think?

Arathorn

I'd like to sign up. Sounds like a SG I might be able to handle.

Question: can later great prophets not be used for golden ages?

Not likely a signup, but still a question:

If another civilization has a different state religion--but one of its outlying cities has only TOTR--does that mean you can't liberate it? It sounds like the 'peace and harmony' clause forces you to go around it.

Pls sign me up for this one - if space available

This is definitely the wrong thread for posting my RB9 save. Wonder what happened? Apologies, all.

And the save.

Um, I think this is in the wrong thread...

I think I'm too late, but I'll sign up if there is more space.

edit: As for getting religion spread to you naturally in a theocracy, I think natural religion spread can only occur in a city that has no other religion. So you should be safe once you're in a theocracy.

Only problem is getting into Theocracy without discovering Christianism :crazyeye: and before having too many other religions 'polluting' your cities (resulting in commiting suicide, razing most of your own cities).

Of course I don't think you have lots of chance going straight to Theocracy (theology) without getting any early religion, or maybe that will be the challenge...

Jabah

Only problem is getting into Theocracy without discovering Christianism :crazyeye: and before having too many other religions 'polluting' your cities (resulting in commiting suicide, razing most of your own cities).

Of course I don't think you have lots of chance going straight to Theocracy (theology) without getting any early religion, or maybe that will be the challenge...

Jabah

Go archipelago, hope you have no one immediately next to you. Wait until Buddhism, Hinduism, and Judaism are found before researching those respective techs, and then shoot straight for Theology.

Roster:
Arathorn
LKendter
Jabah
Kylearan (Prince only)
MadDogTrebonius

Game is full.

Please, all, comments on game speed? I think I'll go Normal unless I hear an outcry for a different speed.

Question: can later great prophets not be used for golden ages?

No. Great Prophets belong in the Holy City, enlightening the masses. They may not be used for a Golden Age. (In the rules as written. If the team wants to discuss rule modifications, I'm always willing to listen before the game starts, but I retain the final say.)

If another civilization has a different state religion--but one of its outlying cities has only TOTR--does that mean you can't liberate it? It sounds like the 'peace and harmony' clause forces you to go around it.

Yes, we can't "liberate" a city which is already liberated! :) The "peace and harmony" clause may indeed require us to go PAST a city with just TOTR to reach cities to raze. Such is the life of Izzy.

@ruff_hi and Snaproll: Sorry. The game closed fast. I don't have the personal time bandwidth to start another game right now. If the variant is popular, I am always happy to see my ideas run with in other games, so please feel free to copy the idea, if you'd like.

To the Team:

When starting the game, I will have the option of pursuing an early religion. Do I want to do that? Do we want to be the Buddhism jerk (we'll have a good shot at it)? Take the safety and Hinduism? Worker techs first and THEN shoot to found Christianity? What's the plan?

I personally like the idea of a very early religion and then as early a Shrine as we can manage to hopefully lessen the need for a hundred zillion missionaries. If we have stone around, Stonehenge very early could be great. I lean towards going for Meditation, as an early temple could give us a priest, if we need/want, to help get the Shrine built faster.

I can't play today, but I could hopefully post a start position, if we can agree on game speed and map form.

Arathorn

Go archipelago, hope you have no one immediately next to you. Wait until Buddhism, Hinduism, and Judaism are found before researching those respective techs, and then shoot straight for Theology.
Better yet, pick several Spiritual opponents who will snatch up the early religions, then beat them to Theology via the Oracle.

No preference for Speed.
Not sure Archipelago is much better for religion spreading as I saw (in LK116) our religion "jump" to an AI capitol in a far away island...

I think I would prefer avoiding the earlier religions, but preventing any from coming to us will be difficult. Maybe mixing Speaker and ChrTh ideas would work.

Getting the 'island' map (with only 1 medium island per civ) with options 'no tiny islands' and 'no extra (medium islands)' and 'high sea level' might do the trick to avoid the earlier spreading.

But do we want that or do we want to try to live dangerously :lol:

Jabah

I think not founding an early religion IS living dangerously. Do we really want TOTR to be in a foreign capital, which we can't capture? That's a distinct possibility with avoiding the early religions. That seems worse to me than having to give away a core city (that we can later raze and rebuild).

Arathorn

The safest way will probably then be something like:

- island, no other island/+high sea -> probably no contact before astronomy
- lots of spiritual opponents (so we don't have to wait too much)
- get a early religion (Monotheism for Judaism seems better as it is also a mandatory tech for Theology), still not sure about that.
- don't explore (except our island)
- get as much into theology without discovering it
- wait for christianism to be found, then finish theology and adopt theocracy

But maybe the island kind of map where you have to have astronomy to make contact is a bit cheating... (IF religion can't 'jump' oceans early that is).

If we go for another kind of map, getting a early religion is probably right, but we have to make sure that the AI will research up to theology pretty fast.

Jabah

With seeing the comment about LK116 you have to remember a key factor - *open borders*. I have seen several comments that confirm these ease the spread of religions. It will be hard on the economy, but we must avoid open borders until we can establish a theocracy. At that point we can open them up with a provision that *all* of our cities have our religion.

I think a very early religion is a key. What I can't recall is which tech gives organized religion. If nothing else, we need to build our monasteries early and IIRC both goals come from the same tech.

Religions can "jump" oceans. They can spread pretty much anywhere. I don't think they spread without trade routes or a shrine, but early shrines can pop religion up all over the place. I don't think we want to risk that, do we?

I do think we want Monotheism pretty early, though. That allows Organized Religion, which allows Missionaries to be built without the expensive Monastery first. While it doesn't REALLY protect us, most AIs are reluctant to use missionaries to spread religion in the early game. If we make sure our cities follow TOTR immediately, they're not likely to get a second religion. If we have a neighbor with a religion that we think he might push, we can just close borders to prevent missionaries. Closed borders don't prevent natural spreads, but closed borders and a religion already in place do (I'm pretty sure).

Mid-game, I'm thinking we'll want to encourage our allies (those following TOTR) to adopt Theocracy. That will keep them locked into TOTR and minimize the number of cities we'll need to burn later. I think, anyway.

Arathorn

Given that oceans do help in spreading religion due to easy trade routes, I think we ought to have a pangaea-ish map. How about Great Plains? Although that does have a ton of rivers, also providing easy trade routes. But I like the Great Plains map script and I haven't seen anyone play that one yet.

So either we avoid early religion until we can get a 'clean' Theology, or we get an early one and research "one behind" all other civs. I think religion the earlier the better, personally. I leave the specific choice up to Arathorn, though I agree with your Buddhism reasoning.

And I don't care on the normal vs. epic choice. If we're going to be at war a lot, I think that epic might be easier in that it will be easier for us to plan ahead than the AI.

One trick that might help us is that we can research religion techs up to "1 turn left" and then switch, allowing us to research the religion tech in 1 turn after the religion is founded. This would help us not miss out on religion wonders.

Is there research beaker decay?

Normal game speed is fine with me. I've only raised the question about game speed because I expect us to do a lot of warfare, and depending on map layout/type, time could become an issue.

I'm all for founding an early religion, and would vote for Buddhism. After founding our religion, we will want to avoid the other religious techs until their respective religions have been founded elsewhere, and Buddhism is the cheapest religious tech, so we can focus on worker techs etc. sooner.

An alternative would be to research Masonry first, then Polytheism. If nobody has founded Hinduism one turn before we discover Polytheism, we switch to something else until Hinduism got founded, then switch back to Polytheism->Monotheism at full speed, founding Judaism. That's the fastest way to get to organized religion, with only a minimal risk of Buddhism or Hinduism spreading to us before we found Judaism. But this plan would slow us down economically, so I'd prefer to simply found Buddhism instead.

-Kylearan

I am not sure I understood the Buddhism grab. We then will have to WAIT for someone to get at least Judaism (Monotheism) then Christianism (Theology) before we can go respectively into Org. Relig. and later Theocracy. delaying and risking having religion getting into our cities.

I could be wrong but going for Masonry then Monotheism (then gifting it to everyone - after alphabet) seems to be faster.


I am not sure (ie I have no idea) about religion jumping ocean (before astronomy), but I am pretty sure it can spread (obviously on its own) while you have closed borders.

Map with lots of rivers are probably asking for trouble...

Jabah

PS Epic might be easier indeed as we have to do some cleaning before ending the game.

Hi,

I am not sure I understood the Buddhism grab. We then will have to WAIT for someone to get at least Judaism (Monotheism) then Christianism (Theology) before we can go respectively into Org. Relig. and later Theocracy.
I don't think we will have to wait long for Monotheism to be researched by somebody else; Judaism falls rather quickly in my experience. But see my alternative plan if we'll find that too risky.

Regarding Theology and Theocracy, we can't do much to speed that one up either way, and have to wait for an AI to research it first. Only if we want Christianity to be our religion can it be sped up, but I find that way too risky.


I've seen my shrine-empowered Hinduism jump to the capital city of an AI in the middle of another continent before Astronomy, by the way. In fact, because it had jumped to the other continent, contact between that civ and me was established! No idea how exactly that did happen.

-Kylearan

I'm playing Great Plains in LotR22 right now, so I don't want two of the same. I also want a wrapping world for this game, so we have a bit of flexibility on movement direction. We might need to hit in different directions and I want to be able to go around, instead of just across, to do it.

Pangea sounds fine to me.

If everybody's OK with Epic, I'll do that. It'll make the game longer, but more of a good thing is still good, right? Probably 40-20-20-20-20 for the first round (and then 10/player after that). Those first 100 turns aren't always that exciting. Important, yes, but not necessarily exciting or time-consuming.

but I am pretty sure it can spread (obviously on its own) while you have closed borders.

Yes, it can, but only to cities that have no religion already. Once we put TOTR into a city, it won't acquire a second religion "naturally". A second religion would have to come via missionary. THAT we can avoid with closed borders.

I agree with Kylearan that waiting for Christianity is too long. His plan on founding Judaism is quite interesting, but I think we'll have plenty of beakers required for worker techs, metals, etc. Judaism usually falls fairly quickly and I think getting Agriculture and/or Mining and/or Animal Husbandry and/or Archery (depends on what (or who) is near us!) in the meantime will be fine. We'll just have to be really careful about Open Borders and to be certain to send missionaries with our new city defenders (the settlers can follow a bit later in time, since they move faster).

In fact, because it had jumped to the other continent, contact between that civ and me was established! No idea how exactly that did happen.

Act of God, obviously! :)

Oh, BTW, Monty Python "Spanish Inquisition" jokes/comments are highly encouraged. I'd start if I could come up with any good ones.

Arathorn

Well, since I'll be watching closely ... FETCH THE COMFY CHAIR! :crazyeye: ... ah, thank you that's much better. :coffee:

For all heretics ...

... THE RACK!!!!
http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00006NWA1.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

And if then the heretics still won't confess their sins, I've brought...

...THE CUSHIONS!!!

http://www.embroiderersguild.com/stitch/project