View Full Version : Mature Players Association
elderotter Oct 24, 2005, 09:02 AM Hey, started this thread from the Multiplayers behaviour thread.
I and Nuclear Elephant are gathering names of multi-players who would like to enjoy games played at a easy-going pace.
1) if someone gets a real bad starting place - we start game over.
2) We can disagree without being disagreeable.
3) if you just have to cheat, please refrain when playing us
4) Quitting consistently without a good reason is frowned upon(not going to kick you but please be responsible - dont start a 13 hour game when you only have 1/2 hour to play.
5) this isnt an elitist thing - just come to our games for a more relaxed style - which is not to say don't be aggressive in your game play - just dont be aggressive in your attitude towards the other players. It is just a game.
6) I, myself, would prefer it if we kept it to members of this forum - for simplicity's sake.
Now, lastly - 1) I hope that this is not against the rules of this forum. And if it is my apologies.
2) this Thread is just an info thread... please do not flame, troll, insult other players or commit any other rude or offensive behaviour while posting here.
3) all are welcome - but if you flame, cheat etc don't be suprised if you are not asked to join a game.
PS: also if someone joins a game and doesn't follow the guidelines - explain them to him/her, lets all be nice.
I also wish to point out here something I said below. the easiest way to do this is to decide to play this way and If you host note that the MPA guidelines will be followed. When you are going to join a game look for that statement or MPA approved ...Just because someone is not on this ever growing list is not a reason to not let them play. Let everyone have a chance...those who can't abide will become known and weed themselves out.
Above all remember We Share 1 thing Our Love of Civilization gaming.
chriseay Oct 24, 2005, 09:08 AM I'd be willing to be in on something like that when I have time to play MP. I'm not sure when that's going to be, it will depend on how long the games take mostly, because while I would like to play epic games, I just don't have the time to play for 10 or more hours in one sitting. That being said, this group idea is a great one. :)
Sparrowhawk Oct 24, 2005, 09:08 AM Sounds good to me. Of course, this is all both pending arrival of the game and enough time to play it.
You might want to ask a mod to move this to the "Civ IV: Multiplayer and PBEM" forum instead of "general discussions" though.
Alistic Oct 24, 2005, 09:09 AM They are supposed to have eliminated the "bad starting place" issue.
Varelse Oct 24, 2005, 09:10 AM I'd probably join in so long as mature does not equal snotty or condescending. The game is supposed to be fun after all! Some respectful smack talk is a good thing in the right circumstances. It won't be often I'll be able to play a game at one sitting though. I can usually find 3-4 hours to play on evenings when my girlfriend is working or sometimes on the weekends. If a game takes longer than that, hopefully I can find people to agree to split the game over a period of a few days.
After a while I'd like to start(or join) an alliance that hunts down bullying clans the same way that they hunt down newbies. A balancing force so to speak. ;)
Jecrell Oct 24, 2005, 09:13 AM They are supposed to have eliminated the "bad starting place" issue.
I did hear about that. Supposedly everyone starts off at a fair position now. However, who's to say that some will have more barbarians/animals than others?
Personally I think it's a good idea to have a group of players to associate with with the same ideas. I'm rather thrilled with the idea personally. Otherwise I would have mostly played with my close friends, but I don't think they'd quite fit any of the pre-requisites of this group (they're fairly fond of driving people mad on the internet you see). So I won't be referring them.
King Jason Oct 24, 2005, 09:13 AM I say leave it in general.
Sign me up, I won't be into MPing right away but I'll definately give it a try and I'd like to get some games in with people of this community.
crazybeard Oct 24, 2005, 09:16 AM I'm all for it. Unfortunately, I never know my availability until the day of.
ChrisChua Oct 24, 2005, 09:18 AM Yea! I'm interested too... but soon after my first game, ya? Hahaha
elderotter Oct 24, 2005, 09:19 AM lol well maybe we will be having more than 1 game at a time. seems to be an attractive idea.
southafrica Oct 24, 2005, 09:24 AM lol well maybe we will be having more than 1 game at a time. seems to be an attractive idea.
Good idea, though I can only commit as a casual player (family responsibilities ;) )
-SA
Fobok Oct 24, 2005, 09:29 AM I think I'd be very interested in something like this. Like a few others, though, my schedule is incredibly unstable, and so far off the norm I'm not sure the majority of players would be able to match it. (I'd mainly be free to play before 6:30am in the mornings, sometime from midnight on but sometime wouldn't be available until 4am, often with no advanced warning.)
King Jason Oct 24, 2005, 09:30 AM lol well maybe we will be having more than 1 game at a time. seems to be an attractive idea.
were you expecting the majority of the community to be for the "zomgpwn!" gamestyles? :king:
which again brings me back to my age ole' thought of the fact that 70% of the community is mature and we won't need to worry about MP so long as we keep it amongs ourselves.
Of course we get the occasional troll on the boards, but I find it humorous some people classify the typical online mannerisms of these boards with those of say, WoW general? When it's so far from it.
in any case, I've already compiled a personal list of people on these boards to throw on my Civ4 buddy list, so pardon me if I PM you sometime. :king:
jkp1187 Oct 24, 2005, 09:32 AM I also am interested. Work and girlfriend permitting, of course.
AlecTavi Oct 24, 2005, 09:33 AM I am very interested as well. May I suggest that it be extended to be a "Relaxed Players Association?" As Varelse commented, the term mature could be misinterpreted, and relaxed play seems to be the focus of our interest. I am sure there will be plenty of organized groups for very competitive play, and it would be nice to have a group to find games that are less cutthroat. On a similar note, a group like this would be a good place for new players in the future, people who are new to Civ in general.
Kaene Oct 24, 2005, 09:39 AM Count me in. :)
One of the only reasons I never played MP in previous Civ games was that I dislike aggressive and demanding games.
What about the difficulty setting? I could easily beat the 3rd difficulty level, never tried the 4th one because I thought it would get too tough. :cool: Are ya looking for more seasoned gamers or are we newbs accepted to play too? ;)
Anyway, this kind of thing is just what I was looking for - I was going to start a similar thread when the game was released anyway. :)
elderotter Oct 24, 2005, 09:40 AM I am very interested as well. May I suggest that it be extended to be a "Relaxed Players Association?" As Varelse commented, the term mature could be misinterpreted, and relaxed play seems to be the focus of our interest. I am sure there will be plenty of organized groups for very competitive play, and it would be nice to have a group to find games that are less cutthroat. On a similar note, a group like this would be a good place for new players in the future, people who are new to Civ in general.
No problem with me - I have quite a list so far, am going to check with the moderators before I post any names tho - but hey it doesnt matter what we call it as long as we follow the basic guidelines I started this thread with - seem to be reasonable guidelines from the response.
Jecrell Oct 24, 2005, 09:41 AM Count me in. :)
One of the only reasons I never played MP in previous Civ games was that I dislike aggressive and demanding games.
What about the difficulty setting? I could easily beat the 3rd difficulty level, never tried the 4th one because I thought it would get too tough. :cool: Are ya looking for more seasoned gamers or are we newbs accepted to play too? ;)
Anyway, this kind of thing is just what I was looking for - I was going to start a similar thread when the game was released anyway. :)
Since you'll be playing with real people the difficulty is automatically beyond anything you've ever experienced before. It is literally as leniant as you can imagine and as impossible as you dare question. However, I'm sure that there will be some slack to those who need it during multiplayer games of this type, and plenty of challenge for the hardened veterans.
CdGGambit Oct 24, 2005, 09:41 AM Seems like a good idea, however, might I recommend the use of IRC to get organized?
I personally like irc.gamesurge.net :D
falloutboy14 Oct 24, 2005, 09:43 AM I'd be interested in this as well, once I get my feet wet.
elderotter Oct 24, 2005, 09:45 AM Seems like a good idea, however, might I recommend the use of IRC to get organized?
I personally like irc.gamesurge.net :D
I am kinda new to this: so please pm me about the IRC thing and we will see about it.
Note: am still having problems with EB games about my credit card - not sure when exactly I will get game...I will get it but when exactly I am not sure.
Corbeau Oct 24, 2005, 09:46 AM I would very much be for it. I'm not as old as many players on these boards, but I do try to act in a mature fashion at all times.
Unfortunately, I probably won't have the game as soon as most of you. A couple weeks, at the earliest. :(
Stuie Oct 24, 2005, 09:48 AM I'm interested. I usually avoid MP because of the "attitudes" that seem to come with the anonymous players - but your rules/expectations should eliminate that and I can enjoy playing.
elderotter Oct 24, 2005, 09:49 AM I would very much be for it. I'm not as old as many players on these boards, but I do try to act in a mature fashion at all times.
Unfortunately, I probably won't have the game as soon as most of you. A couple weeks, at the earliest. :(
I anticipate playing Civ 4 for a long time both mp and sp dont worry if you miss a game or two.
BlueMagic Oct 24, 2005, 10:02 AM Count me in...
Will mostly be free on weekends, and probably be interested in trying out all the multi player options.
tcjsavannah Oct 24, 2005, 10:05 AM Count me in as a 'relaxed' multiplayer. In fact, I might have to use the in-game alarm clock to make sure I don't fall asleep during my turn. :)
CdGGambit Oct 24, 2005, 10:08 AM I am kinda new to this: so please pm me about the IRC thing and we will see about it.
Note: am still having problems with EB games about my credit card - not sure when exactly I will get game...I will get it but when exactly I am not sure.
IRC stands for internet relay chat. It's a server that people can join and create permanent channels. Organizing a game is far, far easier through IRC then a forum.
You can get mIRC (the most popular IRC client) at www.mirc.com
edit: For instance, at the moment I am in #mpa , a channel on the irc.gamesurge.net network. If you were to join irc.gamesurge.net and then type /join #mpa in the status (main) window, we'd be in the same channel and could talk.
Darwin420 Oct 24, 2005, 10:08 AM Real life permitting, this is something I wouldn't mind doing every so often.
elderotter Oct 24, 2005, 10:09 AM the Moderators never got back to me on the names thing so I will just go ahead and post them - they can delete it if they want to.
people interested in this to date: 18d, elderotter, knupp, jecrell, nuclearelephant, oxonian2001, rupe, chrismdp, king jason, chrieseay, crazybeard, chrischva, southafrica, fobok, jkp1187, alectavi, kaene, varelse, corbean, stuie, bluemagic. that is 21 to date. I would appreciate pm's about who would be willing to host games.
Also this is open to all - not just those on this list - keeping in mind the relaxed style of gameplay the above listed are seeking. Thanks.
Matte979 Oct 24, 2005, 10:12 AM Sounds great, I would be up for this when life and wife allows.. :)
I seen a trend of these so called mature groups forming, and I am all for it. I was playing Battlefield 2 on public serves for a time but got fed up with some of the younger generations maners. Now I am member of a group called tactical gamers for battlefield 2 which is exactly a mature group of gamers. Have to point out its all ages just a little heavier on the past 20 side.
agar Oct 24, 2005, 10:23 AM I am willing. I am sure I can learn a lot being pasted to the wall and used for target practice by you experienced types.
Stuie Oct 24, 2005, 10:30 AM I am willing. I am sure I can learn a lot being pasted to the wall and used for target practice by you experienced types.
:lol:
That's my expectation as well, seeing as I've stuck to SP all these years.
homersheineken Oct 24, 2005, 10:31 AM I would most defaintaely like to joing this :crazyeye:
Jecrell Oct 24, 2005, 10:37 AM I'm assuming that quarelling among members isn't tolerated? I hope it doesn't come to that, but how is that going to work?
RED1 Oct 24, 2005, 10:43 AM This sounds a real good idea. Ive never played civ against a human opponent b4 and love the idea. Especialy against opponents who are playing for the fun of playing, not just to win. (thats going to be my excuse for a long time i think!)
How did you get arround the time diference between europe and the u.s in earlier versions?
tristangreer Oct 24, 2005, 10:45 AM Count me in.
elderotter Oct 24, 2005, 10:46 AM well it will it would depend who is on when - hopefully there will be people in those timezones who will host according to the basic guidelines.. I guess if you say when you host a game something like the Mature(or relaxed) Players Assoc guidelines apply then it would be cool.
This is more of a guideline than a league or anything - those who join but don't follow the guidelines just won't be asked to play alot. I don't intend to take complaints or ban people I'm just trying to get a bunch of players playing together to adopt certain guidelines don't have to adopt them but we would prefer that you play in the groups that like in your face comments and cheating and flaming...
Varelse Oct 24, 2005, 10:46 AM This sounds a real good idea. Ive never played civ against a human opponent b4 and love the idea. Especialy against opponents who are playing for the fun of playing, not just to win. (thats going to be my excuse for a long time i think!)
How did you get arround the time diference between europe and the u.s in earlier versions?
I'm thinking there will be enough people interested in this type of game that there can be separate games for US players and Euro players.
King Jason Oct 24, 2005, 10:50 AM Using the rules of the MPA.
King Jason Oct 24, 2005, 10:50 AM I'm thinking there will be enough people interested in this type of game that there can be separate games for US players and Euro players.
Why would you want to do that?
a space oddity Oct 24, 2005, 10:53 AM Convience wrt time zones. :)
King Jason Oct 24, 2005, 10:54 AM Well right, but I figure, if there's people online when you want to set up a game. Set it up, so long as if you're playing a 2 hour game, people have 2 hours, or a 12 hour game, people have 12 hours.
a space oddity Oct 24, 2005, 10:57 AM Agreed, this probably will all happen quite naturally. :)
Varelse Oct 24, 2005, 10:59 AM Why would you want to do that?
So that all the players in a particular game will live in approximately the same time zones and be able to play at the same hours. I've got nothing against playing with Euro players, I just think when all US or all Euro games can be arranged it will make things simpler to schedule.
The Great Apple Oct 24, 2005, 11:24 AM You can shove me on that list of yours! I won't be playing until December when I get home, but I personally find playing against a group of people who you actually know in some degree far more satisfying than playing random people. It's also a bit more fun, and, once everybody knows each other, you don't get insanely miss-matched games.
About the reset after bad start - although I haven't played MP much I thought this had been the standard since Civ 2 MP. As in, in the first few turns (I think it was 3), any player can call a restart if they wanted to, however, each player can only do it once, to save time, and to make it hard to abuse.
As for communication. I've never really got into IRC. A friend of mine uses a program called Teamspeak, where, if you have a microphone, you can log on and talk with other people who are on the same server. However, I think that it costs money to run the server - I'll have to ask him. That would also be quite cool for games with alliences, as it would make explaining plans so much easier!
Myzenium Oct 24, 2005, 11:44 AM Good idea, elderotter! :goodjob: Put me on the list. I'd like nothing better than playing well-behaved people.
darkdude Oct 24, 2005, 11:51 AM Count me in :)
Sailsa Oct 24, 2005, 11:55 AM Count me in as well.
Xemu Oct 24, 2005, 11:56 AM Hi! I'm new to the forum but casual Civ 4 MP games sound like exactly what I'm looking for! :)
ChrisMDP Oct 24, 2005, 11:58 AM Elderotter...
For some pointers on how to set up a community in this way, have a look at www.tacticalgamer.com (I used to play bf2 there until I ebayed it to preorder civ4 and stay within gaming budget :D). They class themselves under a loose selection of guidelines and certain playstyles will get you kicked/banned. It'll take some adapting to Civ4 but it's worth it for the immensly satisfying play experience.
Slightly OT, but I find it very interesting that as we gamers have got older, these sort of groups seem to be forming around many different online games. Many of these groups seems to be centered around anti "metagame thinking" (a D&D term to describe play decisions taken because the player knew they were playing a game).
This group sounds a little different (relaxed rather than "realistic"), but it's an interesting development in gaming in general, and one that suits me perfectly, which is nice :)
-Chris
Atlanto Oct 24, 2005, 12:00 PM im interested, although i have no idea when civ 4 will hit the shelves here in australia!
doronron Oct 24, 2005, 12:16 PM Elder, just PM'd you. I'd like to join, as well.
minger Oct 24, 2005, 12:18 PM i'd like to join as well -- if by mature gaming you mean that you don't get a "u SuCk n00b i r0x0rzzZ!!" 13-year old spoiled brat message within the first 1 minute.
King Jason Oct 24, 2005, 12:20 PM I really don't see the need of having any official structure to this, we don't need to form a guild or anything. We all like civ4, we all would like to try MP, and we all want to play with like-minded mature players such as ourselves.
Leaving it at that is enough, pass around names and get together.
"memberships" and playstyles that could get you "kicked out" are not needed. If someone's a jerk the name will be passed around and people won't play with him, likewise, if someone's cool, the name will get passed around and people will play with him.
this was mainly in regards to ChrisMDPs post.
elderotter Oct 24, 2005, 12:22 PM all of you are welcome. how is this for an idea? - when you host a game put down mpa guidelines or mpa approved. If you are playing look for that description. like I said earlier all are welcome just try to abide by the guidelines. and here is a guideline - before you kick out someone for not following them explain to them whats up and give them a chance to reform.
Would hate to have to pword lock the games.
also am not trying to start a league or a guild I did think about it but my time is fairly full and I don't want to be an arbriter, would rather just play the game. just use MPA guidelines maybe stick a mpa decription if you are hosting. I am sure the majority of us are mature/relaxed players and the rest will weed themselves out. lol when they are only invited to games involving trash talking cheating etc maybe they will rethink their position.
ChrisMDP Oct 24, 2005, 12:24 PM all of you are welcome. how is this for an idea? - when you host a game put down mpa guidelines or mpa approved. If you are playing look for that description. like I said earlier all are welcome just try to abide by the guidelines. and here is a guideline - before you kick out someone for not following them explain to them whats up and give them a chance to reform.
Would hate to have to pword lock the games.
Sure - all then you'd need would be a link to a forum post with the guidelines laid out. You could even use a tinyurl and perhaps manage to get the guideline link in the game subject ...
I really don't see the need of having any official structure to this, we don't need to form a guild or anything. We all like civ4, we all would like to try MP, and we all want to play with like-minded mature players such as ourselves.
Fine, whatever suits everyone best... <--- Part of being a relaxed gamer :D
-Chris
Bolgard Oct 24, 2005, 12:28 PM I definitely want in on this - I'd love to be able to sit back with a steaming cup of coffee, and maybe a pastry or two, have some Mozart playing and heaps of snow falling outside, and play Civ IV with other like minded adults in a relaxed, no-pressure environment.
Add me to the list!
UglyElmo Oct 24, 2005, 12:29 PM Agar and Stuie: I like to call getting "pasted" by the more pleasant sounding term: "Playing the Professional Victim." :)
I enjoy taking overpowering, unbeatable forces to see just how fast I can lose with them. Sometimes I even amaze myself! :D
Elderotter: Sign me up as well and you have my permission to post my name on your list. I am now always known as UglyElmo in most games I play.
mabellino Oct 24, 2005, 01:45 PM Signing up...just don't destroy me too fast! My stupid ISP meant I couldn't play Civ3MP before but have just changed to a far less restrictive (and cheaper) one.
I'd prefer a Euro type game at first since you Americans (and others) will have had an extra week's practice!
The Great Apple Oct 24, 2005, 02:03 PM Hmm, well, the way I see it - if there isn't some sort of way to stop bad people from joining games, there is no point to this idea. Reputation alone isn't enough, IMO.
I used to play Dawn of War online quite a bit, in public games. Most of the people there were reasonable people, although there were a few prats. Usually you didn't know who they were until about 5 minutes into the game, when you noticed they hadn't built anything, or they started being randomly abusive. This made the whole experience very frustrating, as it takes the point out of the game if people just quit, or don't make any attempt to play.
What compounds the problem is that people can make multiple accounts, and probably will be able to do so in Civ 4 - if there are accounts at all, there weren't in Civ 3 IIRC. Often you can find youself with the same fool as you just played with, and not realise until you've started up the game.
I think if this is to work it has to be slightly more controlled, maybe, if it is possable, with a separate channel in the chat for people to meet up in before playing (the best way, IMO - there are quite a few groups for Diablo II, another game I used to play, who do this), and/or with password protected games.
I prefer the first of the above methods, as you get to know they group who hang around in the channel, and can start a game when there are enough people, maybe with a password which can be typed in the channel. You also get to have nice chats with other Civ folk without being interupted with nonsensical blabber. Of course this way may not be possable, in which case I think just a commen password for games would be best - otherwise the system just won't work at all.
prscormier Oct 24, 2005, 02:08 PM Sounds like something I want to be part of.
Zelgadis75 Oct 24, 2005, 02:10 PM Count me in!
ironhive Oct 24, 2005, 02:15 PM Sign me up as well.
I'm totally new to the series, but looking forward to getting started and learning some tricks from the veterans :) Pre-ordered so should have it by the weekend.
Good idea!
civaddict098 Oct 24, 2005, 02:22 PM I would love to be a part of it, im afraid though i will have very little time play multi player.
Might i suggest making a quick little web site, it can be some thing free from freewebs or what ever that lists all the players who are "members" and players to look out for that are no fun to play with.
magicshane Oct 24, 2005, 02:26 PM Sign me up. :goodjob:
DeathsHead Oct 24, 2005, 02:28 PM Count me in, sounds like a great idea for finding like minded players. :goodjob:
kandalf Oct 24, 2005, 02:32 PM Sign me up! I'll be playing a few sp games in the beginning, but I should start playing some mp games later on. I think I'll have about 3 hours per session.
Also, at some point I would like to team up with someone so they can teach me to play better. I really sucked at civ3, and can only beat it on warlord and chieftan, so if someone was teamed with me I could probably figure out what I have been doing wrong all this time.
remconius Oct 24, 2005, 02:38 PM I am up for it too.
I'll be playing single player for the first games, but will definitely try MP and joining with rules like these sounds great to me.
With regard to the bad starting place. Apparantly the seeding is more balanced in civ 4, and I like adjusting strategies to the starting location. In my most recent civ 3 game I had no luxuries, so I was forced to build coloseums and the likes, but am still doing quite well. Part of the fun.
And who decides what is a bad starting location?
sela1s1son Oct 24, 2005, 03:07 PM Count me in also.
I like the occasional casual game, and with real people behind it it'd be more dynamic and fun, plus the ability to joke around while doing so would add so much. :) It'd be more like a wargame (As in minatures). :-D
Yeah, sometimes less cutt-throaty games are great and/or even more challenging.
Coffee Oct 24, 2005, 03:52 PM Yes, pen me in. I was hopeful someone would organize this.:goodjob:
Ethyn Oct 24, 2005, 03:55 PM Sounds great, I'm in!
Jecrell Oct 24, 2005, 04:53 PM We've rounded up the forums!
Now to make a list... O.o
Red Door Oct 24, 2005, 04:54 PM Man this would be awesome. Count me in.
Chopperhead Oct 24, 2005, 04:56 PM Count me in as well, I have never played any civ MP other then hotseat before so im anctious to see what it's like. It'll be nice to play against an actuall person. make things interesting and unpredictable. should be fun look forward to seeing everyone in MP.
Nanocyborgasm Oct 24, 2005, 04:58 PM Hey, started this thread from the Multiplayers behaviour thread.
I and Nuclear Elephant are gathering names of multi-players who would like to enjoy games played at a easy-going pace.
Above all remember We Share 1 thing Our Love of Civilization gaming.
I am interested in this league, but I don't expect to buy Civ4 for quite a while because I'm in the market for a new computer. My current one is rather old, and frail.
civaddict098 Oct 24, 2005, 05:16 PM lets see we got....
im asuming that because you posted on a public form you wanted in its ok to list you.
elderotter
chriseay
Sparrowhawk
Varelse
King Jason
crazybeard
ChrisChua
southafrica
Fobok
jkp1187
AlecTavi
Kaene
falloutboy14
Corbeau
Stuie
BlueMagic
tcjsavannah
Darwin420
Matte979
agar
homersheineken
RED1
tristangreer
The Great Apple
Myzenium
darkdude
Sailsa
Xemu
ChrisMDP
Atlanto
doronron
minger
Bolgard
UglyElmo
mabellino
prscormier
Zelgadis75
ironhive
civaddict098
magicshane
DeathsHead
kandalf
remconius
sela1s1son
Coffee
Ethyn
AlCosta15
Chopperhead
wow, that was alot, if you want off the list contact me and if you want on contact me.
elderotter Oct 24, 2005, 05:19 PM lets see we got....
im asuming that because you posted on a public form you wanted in its ok to list you.
wow, that was alot, if you want off the list contact me and if you want on contact me.
seem to have left off nuclearelephant, jecrell, knupp,oxonian, and rupe.
Varelse Oct 24, 2005, 05:34 PM :p Dibs on Rome or America! :p
100th post! lol
knupp715 Oct 24, 2005, 05:37 PM Hi everyone, sorry for not posting sooner.
I have been helping out elderotter organize who is in this little organization of his so he is not totally overwhelmed. This is the complete list of people I have at the moment. Elderotter, Knupp715, 18D, Jecrell, Nuclear Elephant, Matte979, Agar, Darwin420, Homersheineken, Red1, tristangree, the great apple, myzenium, darkdude, sailsa, xemu, atlanto, doronron, minger, oxinian2001, rupe, chrismdp, King Jason, Chrieseay, Crazy bear, chrischva, southafrica, fobok, jkp1187, alectave, kaene, verelse, corbean, stuie, blue magic, uglyelmo, prscormier, zelgedis75, ironhive, magicshane, deathhead, kandalf, remconius, sela1s1son, coffee, ethyn, alcosta15, and copperhead. If you wanted to join just PM me so I can add you to the list. If I had your name down and you didn't want to join just PM me and I will take you off the list. Sorry for any spelling mistakes, I was trying to type the names fast. Did I miss anyone Elderotter?
Edit:I forgot CivAddict098 sorry
knupp715 Oct 24, 2005, 05:44 PM Anyone who is interested in hosting please either PM me or just post on this thread saying you are interested. If you are not interested that's fine.
I have hosted Civ3 MP games before and it's not a problem for me. You said you would be able to everyonce in a while too elderotter right?
elderotter Oct 24, 2005, 05:50 PM Anyone who is interested in hosting please either PM me or just post on this thread saying you are interested. If you are not interested that's fine.
I have hosted Civ3 MP games before and it's not a problem for me. You said you would be able to everyonce in a while too elderotter right?
Yes I did, am still checking your list lol ton o names it is.
elderotter Oct 24, 2005, 05:52 PM Hi everyone, sorry for not posting sooner.
I have been helping out elderotter organize who is in this little organization of his so he is not totally overwhelmed. Did I miss anyone Elderotter?
Edit:I forgot CivAddict098 sorry
Oldstatesman pm'd me also.
apatheist Oct 24, 2005, 05:57 PM I'd be up for some game with looong deadlines, since I won't be able to get a lot of time to play. I've got maturity out the a** ;-).
knupp715 Oct 24, 2005, 05:59 PM Oldstatesman pm'd me also.
OK. Just started making a "hoster" list. Me and elderotter are on it so far.
Also, one last thing. I have been adding everybody who has joined to my CFC buddylist and it wouldn't let me add nine names because they "aren't members of CFC." I must have made spelling errors. Can anyone please help me correct them. Here they are: oxinian, chrieseay, crazybeard, chrischva, alectave, verelse, corbean, blue magic, zelgadic75. Thanks
knupp715 Oct 24, 2005, 06:00 PM I'd be up for some game with looong deadlines, since I won't be able to get a lot of time to play. I've got maturity out the a** ;-).
would you like me to add you to the list?
elderotter Oct 24, 2005, 06:05 PM oxonian, bluemagic,chriseay, alectavi, corbean might be corbeav hard to read my own writing. the rest either matched mine or in 1 case wasnt one mine
knupp715 Oct 24, 2005, 06:10 PM OK, I have fixed crazybeard, chrischua, and alectavi, and oxonian. I'm looking at all the members of this site to fix the other ones. (there are like 1000 pages of members)
knupp715 Oct 24, 2005, 06:20 PM All are fixed except corbean/corbeav. Neither of them are members. If you are reading this corbean/corbeav please tell us how to spell your name. One last guideline that needs to be included or issue that needs to be adressed is your sreen name. I usually use just "Knupp" for online games but I am changing it to "Knupp715" so that my screen name for CFC is the same as my screen name for online play. I think everyone needs to have the same screen name or specify what their online screen name will be so we will know who is who. Just PM me if your MP sn is different from you CFC sn.
Edit: P.S. (It would make it a lot easier if you used the same sn)
cemsity Oct 24, 2005, 06:31 PM Note: am still having problems with EB games about my credit card - not sure when exactly I will get game...I will get it but when exactly I am not sure.
use cash it is easer unless you are in a big city and 50 bucks=:sniper: :sniper: wallet gone :joke:
and yes count me in
RabidMonkeyMan Oct 24, 2005, 06:31 PM even though im not a member, im always a good host, i usually host games for me and my friends on all the games we play, if you guys need hosters id prolly be willing to help out
knupp715 Oct 24, 2005, 06:41 PM and yes count me in OK
even though im not a member, im always a good host, i usually host games for me and my friends on all the games we play, if you guys need hosters id prolly be willing to help out
So would you like to join and volunteer to be a host? Or do you just want to join only if we need more hosts?
RabidMonkeyMan Oct 24, 2005, 06:45 PM So would you like to join and volunteer to be a host? Or do you just want to join only if we need more hosts?
yes......:)
I guess i could become a member.
knupp715 Oct 24, 2005, 06:47 PM Just did another count of everyone, I won't bother writing them all down. Anyways, it looks like we have 50 people including corbean/corbeav but not including RabidMonkeyMan. I also want to state one more thing. For all our younger civvers, don't not join just because this is called "mature." We are not talking about age. We are talking about the way you conduct yourself in a MP game. If you can follow the guidlines (first post of this thread) of this little organization (we really need to find a name for this) then you can join.
Edit:51 Including RabidMonkeyMan
Daniel Jackson Oct 24, 2005, 06:52 PM Looks like you've got 52 now. :) Sign me up.
knupp715 Oct 24, 2005, 06:55 PM Looks like you've got 52 now. :) Sign me up.
Done, you are now part of the MPA!
THARN Oct 24, 2005, 06:55 PM erm- Make that 53.
I'd like to be placed on the list.
:P
knupp715 Oct 24, 2005, 06:57 PM erm- Make that 53.
I'd like to be placed on the list.
:P
AH...I'm running out of paper!!! :lol:
You are now a member of the MPA
King Jason Oct 24, 2005, 07:00 PM Can't I just be a guy that wants to play civ4 online with a bunch of people that aren't jerks?
I mean if you want to call me a member of the MPA.. then fine. Still think it's getting too structured.
Entrinzikyl Oct 24, 2005, 07:04 PM I just registered on the forums after a couple months of lurking because this sounds fun. Relaxed multiplayer is all I can stand.
knupp715 Oct 24, 2005, 07:08 PM Can't I just be a guy that wants to play civ4 online with a bunch of people that aren't jerks?
I mean if you want to call me a member of the MPA.. then fine. Still think it's getting too structured.
I'm not trying to make it structured by saying "member". And I don't think anyone here is wants it to be structured. (any Civ3 MP player will know what I'm talking about here) - This isn't like the Civ3 ladder league.
We are just trying to get a good idea of who is playing so we can add them to our buddy lists, and how many people are playing. Maybe I'm just too organized, but from now on, I won't use the word member. As for the "guidlines" those are just little "manners", so to say, that you should use when playing in the MPA games.
I just registered on the forums after a couple months of lurking because this sounds fun. Relaxed multiplayer is all I can stand. Would you like to join?
RabidMonkeyMan Oct 24, 2005, 07:08 PM i have a couple friends that make it so you never hear the end of it when they win in a mp game of anything....i think this should be a relief from the frustration of not winning
SirKillalot Oct 24, 2005, 07:43 PM Count me in, im looking forward to a good MP game :king:
Padma Oct 24, 2005, 07:46 PM Thread moved. The obvious place for this thread is in the new Multiplayer forum.
ChrisChua Oct 24, 2005, 07:50 PM As much as i am interested, do consider the guys (like me) in Australia:
1) game won't arrive till earliest 31stOct or latest 4th Nov.
2) the time zone difference!!! While it may be 1pm 29th Oct in America, it's 1am 30th Oct in Australia.
But any how, i'm a Civ fanatic and i've gone 48hrs straight to finish the game. So, BRING IT ON!
knupp715 Oct 24, 2005, 07:50 PM Moved, it was inevitable. However, I don't think we are going to get as many people reading the thread now.
@sirkillalot - I got you in
elderotter Oct 24, 2005, 08:20 PM yeah I guess they think they did the right thing, but posts get more reads in general well at leats it got over 100 posts first so alot of people know about it
pls note - I am not flaming the moderators...just don't agree burying it in mulltiplayer is good idea - my opinion.
Padma Oct 24, 2005, 08:24 PM I understand your concern. But consider our position - this thread is specifically about MP. ANyone interested in Multiplayer *should* be able to find the MP forums, without too much difficulty. "General Discussions" is admittedly kind of a "front door" into the Civ4 forums, but for that very reason, we need to make sure it doesn't get flooded with threads that belong elsewhere.
FattyLumpkin Oct 24, 2005, 08:27 PM I love this idea but hope for some shorter games. Online gaming absolutely rocks my clock but a general issue for me is that I can’t often sit down for 4 hour games. Do you think people are willing to do some 2-hour games, or whatever?
UglyElmo Oct 24, 2005, 08:48 PM Don't worry Elderotter. In the Total War forums the MTW MP forum section was added and became the most participated forum section for quite awhile, until the new add-ons and new games were released. :) I am sure this one will grow as well if Civ IV MP is as good as it appears to be and from what all the beta testers have stated. :)
If you need help setting up a website or CIV IV MP-specific forum, let me know and I will help you. I already have a community (The Ugli's: Notice I did not say "clan.") I founded for playing only for fun, but this was your idea and I want you to get the credit for establishing it. I will just help you from the sidelines. :) Just PM me if you have any questions. I can provide a link to the Ugli site for you to use as an example for your efforts as well. I do not want to provide it here and possibly take away Civ IV players who like your idea.
Good luck and a great idea to help promote CIV IV MP and a good way of introducing the game to new players without them having to go through an overly competitive MP lobby. Once I get proficient at the MP game, I am always willing to teach someone the ropes and give them hints. I also have played 100s of Total War MP practice games with new players, to help them learn quicker and get into the more competitive clans.
You will find, the more you help out new players in MP, the better the MP community is as a whole and the better-behaved the MP lobby is. It always makes me feel good to see someone I have trained, go on to establish a well respected clan of their own.
UglyElmo Oct 24, 2005, 08:51 PM Fatty Lumpkin: If I am reading the future "Pit Boss" feature correctly, you will be able to play with others and save the game, then come back to it later to finish. Everyone does not have to be there to play either (except probably the host) and the one's who could not make it will just have the AI play their turns for that night. This would allow you to play sporadically yet still finish a game.
Phoenix_56721 Oct 24, 2005, 08:58 PM Finally a MP forum, you can count me in on this! :D If I can play over a dial up connections that is :sad: , I don't want to slow down anybodies server.
P.S. Why don't members of this group put the link to this thread in their Signatures, so it can be visible in other CFC forums? I would put it in my Signature if you guys want!...:goodjob:
UglyElmo Oct 24, 2005, 10:22 PM Looks good phoenix. :)
I don't believe your connection speed will effect the game speed much. I have played other turnbased games over the internet and any lag is due more to your PC configuration than any connect speed slowness. We will just have to wait and see. :)
MjM Oct 24, 2005, 10:28 PM This looks really good. Count me in.
LiquidSword Oct 24, 2005, 11:18 PM I've been checking out all the posts for about two months now but never felt like joining the discussion. But since none of my friends are planning on getting Civ4 and I'm a big MP I want to say hi.
I'd love to join any game and I'd be happy to plan my schedule around other people if you wish to get an epic game going where we play 5-6 hours once a week on a set day.
Of course Ill be playing solo for a good week to two first before I even bother trying MP.
Phoenix_56721 Oct 24, 2005, 11:28 PM I've been checking out all the posts for about two months now but never felt like joining the discussion. But since none of my friends are planning on getting Civ4 and I'm a big MP I want to say hi.
I'd love to join any game and I'd be happy to plan my schedule around other people if you wish to get an epic game going where we play 5-6 hours once a week on a set day.
Of course Ill be playing solo for a good week to two first before I even bother trying MP.
Welcome to CFC [party] (I will need a week or so also to get the hang of Civ4)
TheBB Oct 25, 2005, 03:18 AM I'm interested, but more or less restricted to playing with europeans I suppose...
Daze Oct 25, 2005, 04:14 AM This sounds great. Does this include PBEM. I think it's the only sort of multiplayer I'm going to play. Anyone want to start up a game when civ4 is released (in UK)? I kind of fancy playing a PBEM while learning the single player game.
FattyLumpkin Oct 25, 2005, 07:24 AM Thanks Ugly. All the more reason to put my hat in the ring!
Shigga Oct 25, 2005, 07:45 AM hey this could actually convince me to try human vs human matches... I usually play humans vs AI because the games and the ppl are so much nicer and, well- civilized ^^
eatomhoch Oct 25, 2005, 08:11 AM Add me to the list please. I'm so psyched about this game....
Coffee Oct 25, 2005, 09:05 AM yeah I guess they think they did the right thing, but posts get more reads in general well at leats it got over 100 posts first so alot of people know about it
pls note - I am not flaming the moderators...just don't agree burying it in mulltiplayer is good idea - my opinion.
I had no problem finding it. What would work well now is a planning thread. A forum for different game variants, time zone concerns, team play, etc. Perhaps elderotter could set it up. :goodjob:
krzysp Oct 25, 2005, 09:12 AM Always played till the bitter end :) Though I'm not the best player out there I really enjoy playing with other good guys. And I like the overall idea of such an association :goodjob:
elderotter Oct 25, 2005, 09:58 AM I had no problem finding it. What would work well now is a planning thread. A forum for different game variants, time zone concerns, team play, etc. Perhaps elderotter could set it up. :goodjob:
Lol well I was in the Navy and they taught me about being a leader there. So as leader I hereby delegate the duty to you, Sir Coffee, arise and go forth to set up said forum. Thanks for the good job. :)
Coffee Oct 25, 2005, 10:28 AM Many thanx elderotter, but would seem that kittenOFchaos has won the contest. Find it here http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=132748
elderotter Oct 25, 2005, 10:36 AM Many thanx elderotter, but would seem that kittenOFchaos has won the contest. Find it here http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=132748
What contest - I stated several times that my intentions were to set up guidelines for a more "mature and relaxed" style of play. If I had wanted a league - I would formed one before now. My hat is off to KOC for Her efforts(or his). I will be playing by my guidelines regardless. If I join/am allowed to join - for there are requirements - I will still follow those requirements. I am going to school, eengaged in recovery from drugs and the service that involves and other things. I have no desire to run a league - thats hard work, to which I am Allergic - lol.
KittenOfChaos - Good luck to you, and those who you recruit to set up your league!
Envy Oct 25, 2005, 11:40 AM I haven't played MP before but id like to sign up for this, I have time on weekends mostly, if we are talking more than 5-6 hours strait
The game isn't out here until next week tho
IglooDude Oct 25, 2005, 11:40 AM I'm mature (in both senses) and relaxed. In fact, I'm so relaxed that I hypnotize people through osmosis. :)
I haven't played any Civ MP before, but with the new engine (and a more stable home life nowadays) I'm figuring on entering the fray. Please list me in whatever mature players listing you have.
Crimso Oct 25, 2005, 11:43 AM It would seem that anyone looking for a game on this forum has signed up already or will sign up eventually, making this a bit moot. Perhaps you could make a new thread, describing the ideals and such of the MPA and make it clear that by default anyone looking for a game at this forum abides by these rules. Get a mod to sticky it and you're done. Just a suggestion, elderotter.
Sign me up, btw.
Coffee Oct 25, 2005, 12:29 PM What contest - I stated several times that my intentions were to set up guidelines for a more "mature and relaxed" style of play. If I had wanted a league - I would formed one before now. My hat is off to KOC for Her efforts(or his). I will be playing by my guidelines regardless. If I join/am allowed to join - for there are requirements - I will still follow those requirements. I am going to school, eengaged in recovery from drugs and the service that involves and other things. I have no desire to run a league - thats hard work, to which I am Allergic - lol.
KittenOfChaos - Good luck to you, and those who you recruit to set up your league!
Humbles elderotter, "contest" was the wrong choice of words. From my read the foriegn legion thread will function in the manner we have both proposed. That was my intent. Best wishes on your recovery, it took me an entire year to regain my health after an interferon treatment. Bin there done that as it were.
elderotter Oct 25, 2005, 01:09 PM I wish to note here that Myself and others will be hosting MPA games - games that stick with the guidelines outlined in the first post of this thread. I, for one, am not sure that games in a competitive situation be it as part of a clan or part of a league will necessarily reflect a "relaxed" style of game. Which is not to say that competition games are bad/immature/or anything else.
Perhaps - after polishing my skills, I might want to take on a CFL clan member in a game, to see if I can win. I do know, upon reflection, that I am not yet mature enough, in my opinion to play competitively and by mature I mean as far as multi player in the Civ series goes. I have never played mp with a civ game. I played mp with Age of empires and I have never seen so many people so devoted to cheating. I don't understand cheating - it aint a win & and you have earned nothing no respect/no self respect/ nothing but a reputation of cheating. So I avoided Civ 3 mp since I didnt know anyone. Now I belong to this forum have in a sense met many people, and we will play oh yes. But I prefer to play according to the guidelines.
Kind of rambling so here it is summed up. MPA is a loose coalition of players who love playing but wish to play according to guidelines, and with people who abide by them. If you want to host a MPA game do so make sure those in the game know what they are - put MPA guidelines used in your descrition and have it. If someone joins start over and don't let that person re-join, unless they agree to behave. Constant bisbehaviour - 3 times or more just post their name in an MPA thread and they won't get many invites from MPA players. that would be 3 times for each report so someone reported twice would have disrupted a game 6 times.
Lets just have fun, play a mature and relaxed game. Those people who belong to a clan - you can join us and play according to our guidelines. KOC's CFL clan please remember if we beat you that meets a requirement to join CFL(Civfanatics Foreign Legion). Hope yto start playing a civ 4 MP game soon. Players start your gaming! lol
Arturus Oct 25, 2005, 01:49 PM I am quite interested this. I always found it hard to find relaxed games in Civ III. As a result, I didn't play many multiplayer games a result. Hopefully this will yield much more positive and relaxing games.
knupp715 Oct 25, 2005, 03:54 PM MPA is a loose coalition of players who love playing but wish to play according to guidelines, and with people who abide by them. If you want to host a MPA game do so make sure those in the game know what they are - put MPA guidelines used in your descrition and have it. If someone joins start over and don't let that person re-join, unless they agree to behave. Constant bisbehaviour - 3 times or more just post their name in an MPA thread and they won't get many invites from MPA players. that would be 3 times for each report so someone reported twice would have disrupted a game 6 times.
Lets just have fun, play a mature and relaxed game. Those people who belong to a clan - you can join us and play according to our guidelines. KOC's CFL clan please remember if we beat you that meets a requirement to join CFL(Civfanatics Foreign Legion). Hope yto start playing a civ 4 MP game soon. Players start your gaming! lol
This is exactly what I was thinking. Everyone should know that this is not a formal League or clan (yet). Forming a league requires a lot of time, a lot of help, and a lot of hard work. As elderotter stated, this is just a small multiplayer community and the people in it are just interested in having fun, relaxed games, without the negativity, immatureness, flaming, and other rude aspects of a game you may find in regular MP games. For now, we are just getting an idea of how many people would be interested in such a group. And who they are. As soon as I get my game (tomorrow in the mail) I will be going on MP just to add the people who have signed up so far to my buddy list. Eventually (maybe later today or within the next couple of days) a list will be posted of people who are interested in following the MPA's guidlines so that we can all enjoy multiplayer civving to the full extent.
Here is basically what I was thinking about the actual playing of the games aspect of this group:
1. Follow the guidlines (Post #1) so everyone involved can have the most fun possible.
2. Add the list of people to your buddy list so that you can play with them on MP
3. Anyone should be able to host. Any hosters should be aware however that they need to name their room MPA. The next part of number three is up to the hoster. Hosters - you can decide if you only want MPA groupees to join or if other people who are not involved can join too. If the person you let in who is not involved in the MPA is not being "good" (for lack of a better word) then just boot them or tell them what they did wrong and ask them to stop
4. Hosters - If you are planning to host at a certain date please feel welcome to do so by posting the date on this thread. This is if you want all MPA members to join and you want them to know when.
5. If someone is not following the guidelines tell them what they are doing wrong and if they continue to do it repeatedly just post their name on this thread so people can spot them out.
6. Please use your same name on MP as you do on CFC so it is easier, and more simple. If you can't then just post and specify what your new sn for MP will be. Thank you
P.S. I will post a list of all the names so far either tonight or tomorrow so you can add them to your Buddy List
elderotter Oct 25, 2005, 04:01 PM I endorse(lol) Kupp715's post.
ffej Oct 25, 2005, 04:07 PM Consider me interested in this. A friend and I love playing long lasting, easy paced epic games, where everyone has fun. Building your empire, helping your friends, destroying your enemies, especially teaming up together and taking on a larger foe. Your empire is your creation, and we always show off how your cities are setup, which ones pump out military units, which is a cultural zenith, etc etc. We get lost in it.
Our games we ususally play go one for at least 15 hours, slow play, unlimited turn times, turn-based. This was from Civ2gold, since Civ3 multiplayer was just abysmal.
Smidlee Oct 25, 2005, 04:29 PM Civ 3 multiplayer was a pain so didn't play multiplayer that much. SO I hope to join in some interesting MP games with Civ4.
Torgo 3000 Oct 25, 2005, 08:14 PM Good job setting this up! And count me in!
:goodjob:
I haven't played Civ online yet, but this is a fantastic framework here. I'll be looking for MPA servers. Word.
Phoenix_56721 Oct 25, 2005, 09:27 PM I was just reading through the CFL clan thread and it seems as though they are going adhere to similar guidelines as MPA, but way too intense for me (taking a written test and beating a CFL player to qualify to join...:sad: ). I think anybody should be able to join MPA as long as they follow the set guidelines for conduct (right?). I wouldn't mind MPA turning into a "clan" as long as we don't start saying who can and cant join based on their skills as a player! We might not win that many tournaments as a (Clan) but we will have a lots of fun playing "Mature games" of Civ4....:cool:
RabidMonkeyMan Oct 25, 2005, 10:12 PM well, i cant and will host a game of civ 4, heres what i plan: get off work and pick the game up around 415ish EST, get home by 445ish EST, eat maybe, then install and hope to have a game up at 530pm EST
im not sure how you will go about finding online games, but here are some information if you want to join me in my game
IP: 68.61.215.118
name: RabidMonkeyMan
name of game: MPA hosting - Civfanatics
im not sure what else there is, but my xfire name is Rabidmonkeyman1 if you want to add me to xfire, i dont use AIM or any other chat program. you can PM me if you wish and ill prolly answer that.
Phoenix_56721 Oct 25, 2005, 10:41 PM well, i cant and will host a game of civ 4, heres what i plan: get off work and pick the game up around 415ish EST, get home by 445ish EST, eat maybe, then install and hope to have a game up at 530pm EST
im not sure how you will go about finding online games, but here are some information if you want to join me in my game
IP: 68.61.215.118
name: RabidMonkeyMan
name of game: MPA hosting - Civfanatics
im not sure what else there is, but my xfire name is Rabidmonkeyman1 if you want to add me to xfire, i dont use AIM or any other chat program. you can PM me if you wish and ill prolly answer that.
Well if my copy shows up tomorrow (fingers crossed) I will look for your server! But I didn't pay for overnight shipping, so I'm guessing that I will receive it on Thursday.
EDIT: My name will be (Phoenix-MPA) or something like that!
Snall Oct 25, 2005, 11:39 PM Well, this is good.
Daze Oct 26, 2005, 05:07 AM I played mp with Age of empires and I have never seen so many people so devoted to cheating.
I've never played MP games and have been worried about this part of it. We all know it's pointless but the cheaters out there will probably want to get into games like these so that they will be the only cheaters in the game (as they're not willing to learn how to be the best players to win I doubt they'll want to learn how to be the best cheaters to win either), so how do you tell if people are cheating?
classical_hero Oct 26, 2005, 05:26 AM As much as i am interested, do consider the guys (like me) in Australia:
1) game won't arrive till earliest 31stOct or latest 4th Nov.
2) the time zone difference!!! While it may be 1pm 29th Oct in America, it's 1am 30th Oct in Australia.
But any how, i'm a Civ fanatic and i've gone 48hrs straight to finish the game. So, BRING IT ON!
I'll assume from that that you are fellow sandgropper. It seems that we in the other side of the world get's ignored.
elderotter Oct 26, 2005, 05:54 AM As far as I am concerned all those from oz can join any game I'm on if using MPA guidelines is ok. On weekends I might be willing to stay up real late...let me know and I will take a nap so I am rested up. Once played a mmorg for 30 straight hours so I can do it - just dont want to do the 30 hour thing often lol 1/year maybe. In fact why not have Austrailian/NZ MPA games it is only a loose coalition of players using the MPA guidelines.
chronicreality Oct 26, 2005, 07:38 AM I will be picking up Civ VI today, and, once I get a handle on it, I would love to participate in the MPA.
Sign me up, Scotty!
Daze Oct 26, 2005, 10:01 AM I will be picking up Civ VI today, and, once I get a handle on it, I would love to participate in the MPA.
Sign me up, Scotty!
Woo, I've got to wait till 4th november for civ 4 but fraxis have already released civ 6 in Texas - gutted
elderotter Oct 26, 2005, 01:17 PM ATTENTION! I have to write 1 more 1 page paper today. when done I will be looking to join and/or host a game between 4-6 players and maybe 2 or 3 AIs.
So I am setting a time of 8pm EST - to start setting it up. check me then on site or whatever in MP
Snall Oct 26, 2005, 03:41 PM I think I don't like idea of AIs in multiplayer for some reason.
knupp715 Oct 26, 2005, 05:35 PM I haven't gotten the game yet :( EBGames e-mailed me and said they mailed it but it's not here. No worries though, I should be getting it tomorrow YAY
doronron Oct 26, 2005, 07:22 PM I will be picking up Civ VI today, and, once I get a handle on it, I would love to participate in the MPA.
Sign me up, Scotty!
Darn it! I've only got Civ IV!!! :lol:
Seriously, I've got my copy, and it runs fine with my ATI card. I'll start looking at MP games in a week or two after I've gotten the hang of the new gameplay mechanics.
elderotter Oct 26, 2005, 07:50 PM yeah no game tonight - didnt see any mpa plaers so I played a while...too tired now got up at 6am and now its almost 10pm. Doing a good sp game on cheiftan - Aztecs. Spiritual seems to be very good but the AI keeps telling me to build settlers and now I have 9 cities going to stop building playing archipelago(SP?) and am leading in score. am trouncing in culture AI on agressive and now wars yet it is about 200 ad.
TheDervish Oct 26, 2005, 09:21 PM I'm a supernewb. I'm bad at Strategy games in general, and I've never played a civ before. Would be glad to hook up mature players of either same skill level or high patience :P
knupp715 Oct 27, 2005, 01:05 PM EEERRG
I haven't recieved my game yet. I even payed for the extra $8 for the one day airplane shipping. If I don't get it by tomorrow, I'm just going to have to complain! Anyways here is the updated list of members. Tell me if I forgot about you:
Elderotter, 18D, Nuclear Elephant, Jecrell, Knupp715, Matte979, Agar, Darwin420, Homsheineken, Red1, Tristangreer, The Great Apple, myzenium, darkdude, sailsa, xemu, atlanto, doronron, minger, oxonian2001, rupe, chrismdp, KingJason, chriseay, crazybeard, Chrischua, southafrica, fobok, Tharn, jkp1187, aletari, kaene, verelse, stuie, bluemagic, uglyelmo, prscormier, zelgadis75, ironhive, magicshane, deathshead, kandalf, remconius, sela1s1son, Coffee, Ethyn, Alcosta15, Copperhead, Oldstatesman, cemsity, RabidMonkeyMan, DanielJackson, Sirkillalot, Phoenix56721, MjM, LiquidSword, TheBB, eatomhoch, Envy, IglooDude, Crismo, Torgo3000, and chronicreality
Looks like 65!
diamond geezer Oct 27, 2005, 01:20 PM Please add me. When I get my game delivered (my own fault for buying cheapest not fastest). UK, and I am mature (as in old and have kids/wife) so no 30 hour games for me (nor 20, nor 10). :whipped:
apatheist Oct 27, 2005, 03:14 PM Hi, me too, please.
Kolyana Oct 27, 2005, 06:05 PM knupp, please add me: 37 and as mature and honest as they come. :goodjob:
doronron Oct 27, 2005, 06:15 PM knupp, please add me: 37 and as mature and honest as they come. :goodjob:
Honesty might not get you very far. ;)
Kolyana Oct 27, 2005, 06:21 PM HA! Good point, but would I profess to be anything else as I sign that treaty with you? ;)
Shigga Oct 28, 2005, 02:57 AM Perhaps you should consider different time zones when ordering the list. Surely it will make things easier if the ppl are in the same time zone. :)
Question: Will there be coop-games (Humans vs. AI)?
Mr Angry Oct 28, 2005, 04:59 AM Yeah sign me up, tired of playing Mp games with screaming kids constantly declaring how good they are and how their going to do this that and the other. just want to play nice friendly slow games that actually get finished.
Anyway don't be put of by the name, i'm fairly placid really
Smidlee Oct 28, 2005, 05:05 AM When are we going to get together on this? I live on the eastern coast of America so it's EST for me.
Viper1812 Oct 28, 2005, 05:05 AM Knupp, please sign me up.:goodjob: I an fed up of immature players ruining MP games!
jkp1187 Oct 28, 2005, 08:14 AM EEERRG
I haven't recieved my game yet. I even payed for the extra $8 for the one day airplane shipping. If I don't get it by tomorrow, I'm just going to have to complain! Anyways here is the updated list of members. Tell me if I forgot about you:
Elderotter, 18D, Nuclear Elephant, Jecrell, Knupp715, Matte979, Agar, Darwin420, Homsheineken, Red1, Tristangreer, The Great Apple, myzenium, darkdude, sailsa, xemu, atlanto, doronron, minger, oxonian2001, rupe, chrismdp, KingJason, chriseay, crazybeard, Chrischua, southafrica, fobok, Tharn, jkp1187, aletari, kaene, verelse, stuie, bluemagic, uglyelmo, prscormier, zelgadis75, ironhive, magicshane, deathshead, kandalf, remconius, sela1s1son, Coffee, Ethyn, Alcosta15, Copperhead, Oldstatesman, cemsity, RabidMonkeyMan, DanielJackson, Sirkillalot, Phoenix56721, MjM, LiquidSword, TheBB, eatomhoch, Envy, IglooDude, Crismo, Torgo3000, and chronicreality
Looks like 65!
So how's this going to work? We going to post when we're interested in playing a game?
elderotter Oct 28, 2005, 09:03 AM or look for a game that says MPA on it - I will start hosting in a bit...still feeling out game lol my Diplomatic victory strategy from Civ 3 needs some work lol. I am still on chieftan want to be at least at warlord before I start. Am playing single player epic game on chieftan if I win I'll move up then rinse and continue.
Goosey Oct 28, 2005, 09:49 AM I'm also looking for a MP game, asap, the gamespy is awful, people dropping out like flies, so longterm games or long gaming sessions really needed
- I'm hosting right now if anyone is interrested
4.2x2 AMD - Raptor - 2gig ddr
msn : g54_goose@hotmail.com if anyone is game
Silver Oct 28, 2005, 12:00 PM Add me to your list as well, inside the game I go by Imitation Pollack. I will be regularly hosting multi player games, usually under the moniker of 8+ hour game, so as to keep out those not inclined to finish.
I played with another two players for 10 hours straight last night, and had, quite possibly, the best multi-player experience of my life.
if anyone want to get in touch with me personally, you can always contact me here, and I'll almost always be willing to set something up, if I'm not playing already, that is.
MSN: pug2500@yahoo.com
AIM: SylvaintheGreat
email: pug2500@yahoo.com
I'll start hosting my games under the MPA label as well
knupp715 Oct 28, 2005, 12:51 PM So how's this going to work? We going to post when we're interested in playing a game?
Add all the people to your MP buddy list. If anyone is going to host an MPA game then they should post on this thread telling what time and when. All games hosted should have "MPA" in the name so we can point out fellow MPA games. If no one is hosting then you can host or just play MP and look for other MPA players to play with. If you don't want to do an MPA game then don't, just join a normal game. But if you are playing a normal game and a fellow MPA member is playing the same game as well, I would team up. Just a suggestion.
P.S. My game came literally minutes after I posted saying it wasn't here yesterday. I played my first game, just me and Ghandi, and I won a domination victory. I am currently playing on a huge map with 17 AI's as France. I'm just getting used to the game. It's great! I'll be playing some MP games in a week or so when I get the hang of it.
Silver Oct 28, 2005, 02:24 PM A week? pfft, you should play one with me. Now.
Smidlee Oct 28, 2005, 09:52 PM I had my first multiplay experience today. I got a bad start but stuck with it to the bitter end . I lost connection once but it was easy (it was a pain to actually chase down the game "name" in the lobby) to logged back into the game with only a few turns controled by the AI. We started with 11 but only 4 including myself was lefted when I was destroyed. Only one other was destroy the rest left with warning. I was in the game for almost 6 hours and still had three big human empires with AI's playing those who lefted. I did learn some points though:
First I stink. Need more practice.
Second even with the timer set on fast, turns can become long especially with more players and bigger maps. With 11 players there will be someone who uses almost all the time on the clock.
Third Even though normal speed is faster then Civ 3 it still too slow to finish a serious game in one sitting ( even if 8-10 hours). It would help to keep maps very small with at most 5-6 players on this speed and still lucky to finish them. The quick game with smaller maps is probably the ideal game.
It would be nice to get together and play a long game with more than one sitting but that's very hard to get everyone back together at a later date. That was the problem with HOI which we were lucky to get over half of the ppl back.
whb Oct 29, 2005, 08:03 AM Please add me to the list (although being in England, I won't be able to play until sometime after Nov4)
Coky Oct 29, 2005, 02:15 PM I didn't read all the pages because well.. Look. But I am definately Interested! I want long games, friendly people, minimal profanity ;). So sign me up! I'm not sure how the system works or if it was describe on page 1 (which it probably was) but ya. If there is a list, put me on it. And is there a way to make an updated Text document for people in the MPA? If someone does something wrong and has no excuse for it or something, they can get taken off the list so people will know. But it should be fair and reasonable. But anyway, list me up! Cya all around.
UniKorn Oct 29, 2005, 03:03 PM Count me in too, but I live in Finland and I have many exams soon so I'll have to wait a week or two before I can start playing MP. Also I think I could host games allthough I usually play "only" max 4 hours straight.
elderotter Oct 29, 2005, 03:16 PM I didn't read all the pages because well.. Look. But I am definately Interested! I want long games, friendly people, minimal profanity ;). So sign me up! I'm not sure how the system works or if it was describe on page 1 (which it probably was) but ya. If there is a list, put me on it. And is there a way to make an updated Text document for people in the MPA? If someone does something wrong and has no excuse for it or something, they can get taken off the list so people will know. But it should be fair and reasonable. But anyway, list me up! Cya all around.
understandable but read post #1 so that you know the guidelines. If you see a game tagged MPA join it. I am going to host a game tonight - after dinner so maybe 6:30 -7pm EST It will have a pword of MPA. Join if you like the guidelines. Just for a note it will be an inland sea map and probably set at warlord because that is what I am playing now - haven't won a game at it yet SP, lol darn Barbarians are tougher than the actual civs...and yes Barbarians will be present - not raging tho.
Reuhka Oct 29, 2005, 03:43 PM I love the idea, I'm in.Count me in too, but I live in Finland and I have many exams soon so I'll have to wait a week or two before I can start playing MP. Also I think I could host games allthough I usually play "only" max 4 hours straight.As a fellow Finn I hope we can play together in a near future. But I've to get through my conscientious objector training first, and that will eat the whole next month. :sad: No CIV4 for me in a big while. :mad:
elderotter Oct 29, 2005, 04:37 PM aint letting me host a game so far will keep trying but if you see me on and I don't have a game going beep me.
UniKorn Oct 29, 2005, 04:40 PM Originally Posted by Reuhka
As a fellow Finn I hope we can play together in a near future. But I've to get through my conscientious objector training first, and that will eat the whole next month. No CIV4 for me in a big while.
Yeah sure, just add me to your buddy list when you go MP or I'll add you, if I remember :)
elderotter Oct 29, 2005, 04:49 PM apparently there are a lot of people in the MP tonight I cant seem to stay in it. About 1 1/2 minutes after I get in I crash it has happened 4 consecutive times ...guess saturday night is not a good night for my computer.
InfamousNato Oct 29, 2005, 07:44 PM Hey elde, I play as Nato in game and would like to sign up for the MPA as well.
Did you guys ever get around to setting up an IRC channel anywhere? It would definitely be a great way for MPA members to find other people to start up games.
Silver Oct 29, 2005, 07:49 PM Anyone here up for a longer builder-type game tonight?
Smidlee Oct 29, 2005, 10:24 PM apparently there are a lot of people in the MP tonight I cant seem to stay in it. About 1 1/2 minutes after I get in I crash it has happened 4 consecutive times ...guess saturday night is not a good night for my computer. I also seemed to crash out of games tonight unlike lastnite as well as crashed three times trying to reenter the game from the lobby. You got to love gamespy.
P.S in order to have a serious long game it would be nice to get a team that can play an hour or two every nite (like Mon-Thurs) around the same time. If not on the weekdays maybe meet a few hours ever Sat. It's near impossible to play a long builder-type game in a single sitting.
Vilgan007 Oct 29, 2005, 10:46 PM Add me to the list please. Getting late tonight but I'll be looking for a game tomorrow if anyone is interested.
Vilgan
Shigga Oct 30, 2005, 07:17 AM Question: Will there be coop-games (Humans vs. AI)?
Still hoping for an answer :)
Smidlee Oct 30, 2005, 07:46 AM One of the biggest mistake I find most host is doing is picking way too big of a map for multiplayer. A small map from multiplayer is huge for multiplayer especially when you usually end up with 2-3 ppl lefted in the game after a few hours. Last nite the host pick small with 4 players. In a short time the host was destroyed which lefted 3 then when the player on the right side of me saw how much distance between him and us (two of us was beside each other) he quit. I quickly lost interest since the game quickly became a 2 ppl game with one AI.
esdawg01 Oct 30, 2005, 08:17 AM I hope its not too late but ive had similiar problems with multiplayer games i think this is a great idea.
elderotter Oct 30, 2005, 12:38 PM Still hoping for an answer :)
sure why not?
Marquis Mark Oct 30, 2005, 12:58 PM This seems very tempting, but I have a question:
I'm all for helping out newer players by answering questions on mechanics and strategies, but I don't like a set of artificial "honor" rules. Taking it easy on new players is a disservice -- they can learn by watching, especially if you'll discuss with them why they lost or mistakes you've noticed. As an inexperienced civ4 MP player myself, I prefer to be smacked around while I learn, it helps.
What do you guys think of this subject?
Coky Oct 30, 2005, 02:10 PM I kind of agree. As long as you answer their questions, be mature and nice to them, then I think you can do what you want with them.. Treat them like any other player. I joined a game last night where I started out in a terrible spot and france had me cornered. This was my first game and It was a good learning experience.. I was rome and grabbed some iron.. Pumped out some Praetorians and took france out completely. It was a great learning experience ;) :D. But I agree with Marquis Mark.
Stevenpfo Oct 30, 2005, 05:46 PM Throw me on your list. I had a pretty fun first MP game tonight. But it sucked cause people kept joining and leaving and we even had one person join, declare war, then log off.
Mat777 Oct 30, 2005, 09:06 PM Ok can we follow that thread with the number of post .
Please made a new one and explain what kind of agreement you guys made .
iluvc2oh6 Oct 30, 2005, 10:54 PM I am kinda new to MP civ but I played my 1st game today was 2nd eliminated outta 5.
But I am competitive and wanna get better, I dont quit, I am a good sport.
If it seems like someone you want to play with you look me up.
I would like to play online games on the weekend when I have time for a long game or an ongoing Email game would be great....how do you play an online game I still dont know.
elderotter Oct 30, 2005, 10:59 PM hey i just wanted to let you guys know I aim to play this week hopefully tuesday - tomorrow night being halloween here. Need to placate the ghosties and ghoulies. Weekends seem to have too many people playing on gamespy for my computer and I get in and then spit out. hope to see some MPA games tues later
Shigga Oct 31, 2005, 02:01 AM sure why not?
Well, sign me up then :) I don't have cIV yet due to amazon :rolleyes: but when I get it I want some MP experience with some nice ppl.
Timeszone's CET
TheeLord Oct 31, 2005, 03:29 AM Sign me up.
People who want a mature player who wont quit email me at Stankiem@hotmail.com with the gametime.
Old Jubilee Nov 01, 2005, 01:16 PM Hey, this sounds great. I'm in!
I've had a couple of MP experiences, some good and some bad. Not a good player but an average one who just plays for fun.
Marquis Mark Nov 01, 2005, 06:44 PM A good idea would be to list your gamespy login here so we can effectively add each other to our lists and find games easier.
Mine's EnriqueTDL
TheeLord Nov 02, 2005, 12:11 AM Why dont we just get a list of emails going and we can feel free to email the group when someone has a gametime coming up. Thatd be awesome I think.
Silver Nov 02, 2005, 01:02 AM Sure, sounds good.
I tend to like longer, less agressive, more builder-type games.
Civ4 Name: ImitationPollack
email: pug2500@yahoo.com
AIM: SylvaintheGreat
MSN: pug2500@yahoo.com
LabMonster Nov 02, 2005, 08:16 AM My Gamespy login is LabMonster count me in the MPA
Varelse Nov 02, 2005, 10:12 AM I played an MPA game the other night. Didn't recognize the names from this thread but everyone in the game was pretty normal. No FPS clanners threatening to own the newbies or anything like that. Only problem was the game crashed just as it was getting good. lol I tried to log back on but none of the other players hooked back in.
skalapunk Nov 02, 2005, 11:00 AM I am also interested, I usually play from 5:30pm MST - midnight, on weekdays. On the weekends I'm pretty much available all the time! :)
Anyways, for some reason NONE of my friends are interested in it, or they aren't "into" it as much as I am. I am seeking someone to play with on a regular basis in the evenings. If you are in the same boat as I am, or are interested at all, please reply to this message or send a message to "skalapunk" on AIM.
Thanks, hope to talk to someone soon!
Marquis Mark Nov 02, 2005, 11:29 AM I played an MPA game the other night. Didn't recognize the names from this thread but everyone in the game was pretty normal. No FPS clanners threatening to own the newbies or anything like that. Only problem was the game crashed just as it was getting good. lol I tried to log back on but none of the other players hooked back in.
Hey now, I'm primarily an "FPS clanner." We're not all snot-nosed script kiddies :)
Email: ryanmscott23@gmail.com
XFire: EnriqueTDL
Gamespy: EnriqueTDL
AIM: armthehomeiess
I won't be able to play for a couple weeks, but after that it's on :D
LabMonster Nov 02, 2005, 03:55 PM We need a 'definitive' list of players with their GS name and/or location or whatever necessarily. makes a printable list to type into the buddy list if you ask me.
pyropsyc Nov 02, 2005, 07:26 PM For PBEM that is...
Marquis Mark Nov 02, 2005, 07:42 PM I thought this was an internet gaming group as opposed to PBEM?
pyropsyc Nov 02, 2005, 07:48 PM I thought it was PBEM too, accordding to the subject title...
*shrugs*
Asterothe Nov 03, 2005, 11:16 AM Count me in. Pasific time zone. Gamesspy ID = AsterotheCIV.
T100 Nov 03, 2005, 06:02 PM Ill play too, Eastern Standard, GS id=T100
Varelse Nov 04, 2005, 12:39 PM Hey now, I'm primarily an "FPS clanner." We're not all snot-nosed script kiddies :)
Email: ryanmscott23@gmail.com
XFire: EnriqueTDL
Gamespy: EnriqueTDL
AIM: armthehomeiess
I won't be able to play for a couple weeks, but after that it's on :D
No offense meant, Mark! I've played my share of FPS myself, although I'm not good enough to be in a clan. You probably know the type I'm referring to though. They tend to be young and obsessive and they tend to know all the latest cheat codes. lol
Edit: BTW my Gamespy login name is the same as my CivFanatics name, Varelse.
elderotter Nov 04, 2005, 03:46 PM Imight have to play pbem because I still get kicked out from multiplayer while looking at the names. pm me if you are going to start a large map pbem - not sure how to do it, but will join a gaame and find out, sorry guys gamespy and my computer dont seem to play well together or we could do an ip address game again pm me if you want
TheeLord Nov 04, 2005, 04:57 PM My email is Stankiem@hotmail.com Gamespy name is TheeLord
bobbobjack Nov 05, 2005, 12:36 PM Is there an official list yet? I'd definitly want to be in!
ahottev@hotmail.com - email and msn
gamespy : bobbobjack
elderotter Nov 05, 2005, 07:15 PM I want to apologise for myself - I can't stay in gamespy so I guess I will be able to only play IP and PBEM games. I dont know about the rest of the people who started this. In the beginning and still it is more of a loose organization - just label you r games with MPA and look for MPA games. Good luck
Marquis Mark Nov 06, 2005, 05:24 PM No offense meant, Mark! I've played my share of FPS myself, although I'm not good enough to be in a clan. You probably know the type I'm referring to though. They tend to be young and obsessive and they tend to know all the latest cheat codes. lol
Edit: BTW my Gamespy login name is the same as my CivFanatics name, Varelse.
Hehe none taken, just had to say it :)
swashbuckler Nov 07, 2005, 01:02 PM count me in...would love to get involved.
SlayerofDeitys Nov 08, 2005, 01:50 PM I have had a similar problem Elderotter but I would be interested in playing games via direct ip with others. Seems easier that way to me anyway since you don't have to worry about finding the game in that horrible list.
elderotter Nov 08, 2005, 03:05 PM I have had a similar problem Elderotter but I would be interested in playing games via direct ip with others. Seems easier that way to me anyway since you don't have to worry about finding the game in that horrible list.
pm me and we will discuss it
Jazzer Nov 09, 2005, 12:31 AM Last night I tried my first multiplayer game of Civ IV. The first game I entered was being run by two buddies who evidently didn't take too kindly to having strangers on their patch. Makes you wonder why those kind of people don't password their games.
Having left Cheech and Chong to it I decided to host my own game. I remembered this post and titled the room 'MPA', more in hope than anything else. Well, I was lucky enough to encounter Bizong and OverKill who proved excellent company for newb trying out the game for the first time. I know at least one of them mentioned this site.
So it works, folks! And thanks for the game, fellas.
DustCounter Nov 09, 2005, 01:10 AM Count me in, Dustcounter.
I have all the free time in the day to play since i'm working nightshifts so i'm available and looking for serious players also that doesn't quit in the middle of the game. Thanks.
knupp715 Nov 09, 2005, 01:12 PM Last night I tried my first multiplayer game of Civ IV. The first game I entered was being run by two buddies who evidently didn't take too kindly to having strangers on their patch. Makes you wonder why those kind of people don't password their games.
Having left Cheech and Chong to it I decided to host my own game. I remembered this post and titled the room 'MPA', more in hope than anything else. Well, I was lucky enough to encounter Bizong and OverKill who proved excellent company for newb trying out the game for the first time. I know at least one of them mentioned this site.
So it works, folks! And thanks for the game, fellas.
This makes me happy. For a little while there, I thought everyone forgot all about the MPA. It's good that it's working. Once everyone starts playing MP I'm sure we will have a great little community to play with.
niffweed17 Nov 09, 2005, 01:56 PM having now gotten a couple of single players off my belt, i'm ready to jump in to some serious MP. i will be able to play mostly on weekends.
email: niffweed17@yahoo.com
yahoo messenger: niffweed17
AIM: niffweedXVII (try yahoo first)
gamespy: niffweed17.
Mr Angry Nov 10, 2005, 10:48 AM looking for a long game to play over the weekend. Nice and chilled and civilized would be great, let me know if anyones up for it?
Email + msn messenger- james_st_2001@yahoo.co.uk
gamespyid - zaphod278
NationalKato Nov 10, 2005, 04:15 PM Looking for a game here. Mature player.
GameSpyID: NationalKato
StefanoDiMera Nov 11, 2005, 04:52 PM Hi all
I'm quite new in this forum (just signed up) but I love the CIV-games and I've been hook'ed since CIV2.
I'm 29 and would love to join your "fellowship" and play som MP-games. Like the most of you - honestly, I haven't read the whole thread - I'm available on weekends.
I will go online (gamespy) and look for MPA-games, hoping to find some of you to play with. Usually I play at huge maps with max numbers of AI's and sometimes with my wife, who also enjoys CIV-games (and yes, sometimes she wins).
See you there, I hope.
BTW - anybody looking for players to a PBEM-game soon, just write me; k o g t AT e m a i l . d k.
/Kim
elderotter Nov 11, 2005, 05:05 PM just so you newer people know some of us can't play gamespy and are hoping the patch addresses this problem. Meantime we are PBEM'ing or IP'ing.
StefanoDiMera Nov 12, 2005, 03:11 AM just so you newer people know some of us can't play gamespy and are hoping the patch addresses this problem. Meantime we are PBEM'ing or IP'ing.
oki, so you just exchange the needed information here in the forum? I just have to check out this site/forum on a regular basis ;)
Elleshar Sep 28, 2006, 05:02 AM I'm desperate to play against intelligent adults that are prepared to devote at least a few hours to this great game...
Gamespy ID: Elleshar
email: mathgrayuk@yahoo.co.uk
Feel free to mail me for more info on availability times...I'm happy to IP or Gamespy.
knupp715 Sep 28, 2006, 12:42 PM Since Civ came out and I've played multiplayer I've found the best way to play MP games is by joining the ladder. You should all check it out.
www.myleague.com/civ4players/
Bassman345 Sep 28, 2006, 04:12 PM I would like what join as well
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