M60A3TTS and Obormot have the option to play since they are participants in Handy 21, the others have already indicated an interest. If either declines then a spot or two may open up. :)

Roster (may change depending on who has the game when we start)
Roster
1. Greebley -
2. Mark1031 -
3. Handy -
4. ThERat -
5. Sir Bugsy -
6. Obormot - crash issues



Always War Boilerplate from C3:
You may only trade when you first meet a civilization, and must declare war on the same turn after trading is complete. If you see a new AI unit, you must make contact & declare war that turn. Absolutely no GPT trades allowed. If you see a new face on F4, you are obligated to declare war that turn (after trading). Players must declare war if they are exploring and see AI units, but are not required to actually attack the units they come in contact with. No peace treaties, ever. You may check F4 as often as you like to spy on the AI's tech, resources, luxuries & city count.

Discuss any move that seems exploitive before doing it with the team. Although there are not too many exploits available in AW, we’ll follow the forbidden blatant exploits banned by GOTM and RBCiv such as no "Free Wealth". Other normal game exploits such as "Baiting the AI" with an empty city to create a kill zone are an AW tradition and are allowed. Also, you ARE allowed to initially keep a city, move a settler to the same spot as the city, and then abandon and immediately resettle. This is considered an exploit in RBCiv rules, but is okay in our AW games. In addition if you need to build a city one square deeper into enemy territory just to move borders to steal a resource, go for it. We may keep or raze cities, and can keep slaves. You may whip at will, including captured cities or cities where all citizens are unhappy.

SG Stuff
You have 24 hours for an "I got it" and 72 to play. If you need a one day extension, then mention this before the 72 hours are up. Players can work out skips between themselves, just post a message to the thread. If you can't play within 72 total, switch places or ask for a skip. We will play 10 turns at first, and possibly fewer later (5) if the turns begin to take too long.

Lucky candle to light the way.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/HNDY02_luckycandle.gif

There is an always war flag in Civ4. The question is whether that means the AI are at war with one another or it is the game we normally play?

I would also like to play the "no initial trade" (make it official in Civ4). Like Lee, I don't think the initial trade is right for AW. I don't know enough about Civ4 to even know if Initial trade makes sense actually.

You guys might want to read the manual on the Always War game option before you begin. :)

checking in.

Agree with Greebley, that we need to fidn out the conditions of AW for Civ4. I wouldn't want a game where everyone is at war with each other. i mean that sounds like a new variant all together

I really wanted to play a normal non-variant game first, but i just cannot resist to join :) I won't propably get the game before the 4th of november though.

...
I would also like to play the "no initial trade" (make it official in Civ4). Like Lee, I don't think the initial trade is right for AW. I don't know enough about Civ4 to even know if Initial trade makes sense actually.

No trades is fine by me. See 'em, declare.

This official qualifies as going in totally crazy.

Nobody knows how to play, and AW already. My LK series will seem tame and boring compared to this.

This official qualifies as going in totally crazy.

Nobody knows how to play, and AW already. My LK series will seem tame and boring compared to this.

Your series is awesome. Never boring, and AW with no armies remains one of my alltime favorite lurks.

We got an open spot if anyone wants it.

This official qualifies as going in totally crazy.
:lol: well, you can learn a lot about a game playing AW. We will start it easy. Hopefully Civ4 will be much more versatile in gaming style. No armies will make it much tougher for sure.

I'll give it a try if you'll have me. BTW Noble is just above warlord so pretty low and maybe doable.

I'll give it a try if you'll have me. BTW Noble is just above warlord so pretty low and maybe doable.

Welcome to the team! :D

If we are really feeling masochistic we can use fixed alliances with the AI allied against us :lol: That might be better for a later game though.

I'll give it a try if you'll have me. BTW Noble is just above warlord so pretty low and maybe doable.

Low by Civ3 standards. Conquests has 8 difficulty levels, with Monarch being #4 of 8, but "no handicaps" being at Regent(Prince) #3 of 8.

Prince is now #5 of 9, and "no handicaps" is at Noble, a level between Warlord and Prince with no Civ3 equivalent.

Always War was worth one or more difficulty levels in Civ3. Even assuming it's the same here (is that really a safe assumption?) there's the question of whether the AI has been improved.


I'm just thinking back to my First Game of Civ3 (http://sirian.warpcore.org/civ3/game1.html) and how very many of my assumptions carried forward from Civ2 turned out to be no longer the way of things.

Part of what makes Civ4 exciting (at least for me!) is that it's not just another Civ3 expansion pack. Be prepared for a few surprises. :cooool:


- Sirian

Part of what makes Civ4 exciting (at least for me!) is that it's not just another Civ3 expansion pack. Be prepared for a few surprises. :cooool:


I feel the same way and am looking forward to it. We probably will make some major goofs in the first game. It won't be the first game that has taken several tries to win. Most of my 24 losses have come from Handy's games. It should be humorous if nothing else :lol:

I'll in. Hopefuly my copy will be delivered soon after release.

I think we should all get the game and read up a little. Or is that too conservative? :crazyeye:

I think we should all get the game and read up a little. Or is that too conservative? well, I am in this part of the world, that Firaxis somehow forgot, how could they :(
Won't be able to play until end next week. So, put me at the end of the roster. This way I will also avoid the worst of blunders maybe

Well good luck with this one. It should be another fun read from the AW gang. :)

I just got news that my copy of Civ4 was shipped. I should have the game in 2 days.

After reading the bug reports, we might need a playing requirement that you have the game actually working on your machine. I have an ATI chip, so this may be interesting.

at least I have a graphics card someone confirmed compatible with the game. Now, if only someone would ship the game over here. :cry:

The first one to get a working version of the game can kick this off.

Officially signing [lurking] in.:drool:

Copying Methos' lead. :D You guys better be training with a game on the side so you don't get owned. This is gonna be a good one.

The first one to get a working version of the game can kick this off.that might be Greebley

If I do get the game, I may try a few Noble AW starts just to get some idea of what we need to build first. Otherwise we will likely be doomed at the starting gate.

I was thinking it nice that we have totally new "initials" for AW games at least at the level of where we will be playing for the forseeable future.

AWN, AWP, and AWK. (noble, prince, king).

Not sure what the other 6 are would be. It is nice that they are independent of AWR, AWM, AWE as it makes it clear which game you are playing.

I am guessing some outside the N/P/K range will collide (is there an emporer?), but still its nice that some are unique.

Awesome lineup here, I will definitely be following this one. Good luck!

Well I have it working beautifully so this could be a Got it. But who are we going to be? My choice? And I would suggest we do 2 continents which you can choose now. Everything else standard.

Well I have it working beautifully so this could be a Got it. But who are we going to be? My choice? And I would suggest we do 2 continents which you can choose now. Everything else standard.

Okay by me if you select the Civ. Two continents on a standard map size sounds okay also.

actually we should try and get a Civ that suits AW, whichever that is. I haven't got a clue actually :lol:

But, maybe some trait that favors unit promotions. What choices do we actually have. We can afford some discussion here before we start. It will take still 1 week until everyone can grab hold of the game anyway.

I just got news that my copy of Civ4 was shipped. I should have the game in 2 days.

I actually wasn't planning on picking up the game until it showed up at our local Walmart in a few weeks. Who knew they would be sitting on the shelves this afternoon. :D No tech issues, runs like a champ on my Dell.

So I'll be lurking on this one. Good luck, guys! :goodjob:

Mine has shipped as well, but Amazon is saying early next week for delivery.


Edit - I have no idea about a civ. I was thinking all random for a start would be very interesting.

I played my first game yesterday.

I think playing Noble will be tough, but winnable given a decent position. I was able to wipe out one civ though I wasn't trying AW yet.

I played the Mongols, and they seemed a decent AW civ (I picked them looking for one). They get Keshiks which were strength 6 horsemen instead of 4. They are Aggressive and Expansive IIRC. They also ignore all terrain movement costs.

We could try them first. Horses seemed reasonablely plentiful and it is a very decent UU.

The biggest problem was that the Keshiks were not good at taking cities. Not sure if that was bad luck or not understanding the rules well enough.

I actually tried a bit of AW with Rome and it looked pretty good. The Pretorian is very powerful for taking cities which will be critical:D . The Start I had was nicely defensible and had iron so if people want I could go with it. I do think we need a good city taking unit early.

So I played a start. Here it is.

I played the Mongols (Keshik move 2 over all terrain).

Its biggest advantage is very small chokes. Mountains are impassable.

There is one AI to the south.

The red lines to the SE are the length of the choke with the Purple AI (to the south).

We have a built a worker and also horses right next to the Capitol. I went for the worker early so we could build pastures as we have both the horses and sheep (this will give us more shields).

Horse riding/keshik can be learned - it is 25 turns to do so.

With only 1 AI to the South, I think we can win vs him/her using our Keshik. That will give us a big chunk of land to claim as our own - big enough for our city needs in the near and moderate future.

The picture is big so I will post a link

The picture (http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a251/Greebley/HNDY22_BC3000.jpg)

We also got 2 tech a free Scout and free warrior from huts as well as cash.

Wow that is a very nice AW start location. Lots of nice space to expand in. Am I the only other person with the game working? If so I can take it.

I think so. Why don't you go ahead and take it.

I would play to 2000 BC (almost typed AD which would have been wrong :D ). The first turns are slow.

Note that we may want cottages to speed reasearch. We have the 3 food floodplain that would be good for that.

For anyone that doesn't know, you build a cottage and get an extra gold. After a number of turns that cottage grows to a town and is worth 4 gold and more with techs we will get in the future.

Not too much to report in detail. The early game is rather slow.

We do meet the purple people and they are the Romans. War is automatically declared. That is a nice feature. I guess we don't have to discuss the issue of weather we will allow an initial trade.

After Animal Husbandry I went with mining first and then Mysticism:eek: and finally HBR. I built an archer and started another but switched to Stonehinge when Myst came in.

So you might want to know what the hell I'm doing building Stonehinge in an AW game. We have plenty of time for war. Stone hinge is a cheap and great wonder. It gives automatic obilisk (ie culture) in every city. It will be great for allowing us to put cities where we want and not worrying about getting expansion for the resources. We can go straight to Rax.

Grumpus is a worker/settler pump. It cannot go above 6 until we get a lux. Gold is the only one we can hook up until calander. So don't let it go above 6. When it is on settler/worker do high food (helps build these units). When on military go to no food/starvation (always use the FP as it has a cottage). Going above 6 is a total waste. I did a bit of a dot map. I don't think we can do CXXC but need spaced fully developed cities with plenty of cottages for support and research. Don;t forget gold is a lux here and needs a mine and road to hook up. On this level and at this distance we have plenty of time for Rome. We need settlers/workers then keshics.

It looks like I may not get the game until Tuesday, so if anyone else has it feel free to take the game. It certainly sounds like a whole new game to learn. :)

Does Stonehenge ever expire?

Is the AW variant in C4 pretty similar to the way we play it? (Can other AI still be at war with each other, or just us?)

Greebley You are up in our C3 Swan Song (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=130862), which is looking pretty good at the moment.

Stonehenge expires with calendar.

Gaah, I don't even have the game yet, and I am butting in in other people's games.

Stonehenge expires with calendar.

Gaah, I don't even have the game yet, and I am butting in in other people's games.

Thanks for the info. Lurkers with infomation are always welcome. :D

I guess I'll get a tech tree and finish Sulla's walkthrough while I wait for my game.

After Animal Husbandry I went with mining first and then Mysticism and finally HBR.how many turns did you play, this sounds like insane research speed.

well we still have only 1 city.:lol: Research for some is 3-4 turns at nobel.

Mark and I played 25 turns each I believe. The first techs are relatively fast but they increase a good bit.

The mouse-over for Always War option was that the AI declares war with the Human right away. I am trusting that over the manual that says everyone is at war. It is possible we are playing the wrong game and everyone is at war, but I don't think so.

BTW, we are playing "continents". There were some more interesting options, but I thought something simple at first.

We may also have to worry about barbs. I think I left them on.

The manual says that everyone is at war? That's true in MP, but not SP. AIs have normal relations with one another. (They may fight amongst themselves, but don't count on it!)

- Sirian

Henge is really like a mini-wonder, as its only 200 shields and goes obsolete fairly quickly. The great thing it does (that never goes obsolete) is give you a source of great people points from the get go. I recommend using the first two or three for permanent specialists to really beef up the capital and give you a better shot at a later key wonder or two.

Smart on the cottage - long term, they are the only way to get serious commerce from your tiles. Farms, mines, and roads yield no commerce in Civ IV! You might get a random coin from being on a river, but otherwise you've gotta work hard for the money!

:p

Getting cottages up to speed takes some patience, but pays off big-time in the long run. One implication for AW is that you may not want to pillage enemy villages and towns, even though doing so gives cash, if you're planning to conquer the relevant city for yourself.

As for barbs, they'll probably help, as they're akin to another weak civ playing AW too.

The manual says that everyone is at war? That's true in MP, but not SP. AIs have normal relations with one another. (They may fight amongst themselves, but don't count on it!)

- Sirian

It was probably talking about MP. It was unclear to me. I don't even remember where I read it, I could even be wrong about it being the manual.

In any case, I am glad to hear that we are playing a real AW game. :D

Wow, can't believe you already started. I hope to join you in a later game once I have settled in my new home.

I don't think we can do CXXC but need spaced fully developed cities with plenty of cottages for support and research.
Also, even with roads, 1 movement units will be not be able to reach the next town over with CxxC until Engineering. I think it's also worth noting for AW that hurried units are ready right away, not the next turn. Good luck. :goodjob:

I guess I'll get a tech tree and finish Sulla's walkthrough while I wait for my game.If anyone hasn't done this yet, I highly recommend it.

:thumbsup: to Sullla for a great write up and a great tutorial.

Another technique we can use is to build all but 1 turn of a unit. That way if we suddenly need a unit we can switch production.

Another technique we can use is to build all but 1 turn of a unit. That way if we suddenly need a unit we can switch production.this strategy came to my mind months ago when I first read about the way production works. Actually strictly speaking this can be way exploitive.
Imagine, you don't know whether you need a unit for defense, so you build it, but don't complete. Now, for better units, you build a rax, but sudddenly the enemy shows up. A quick change back and the unit is done on time to face the opponent.
It would also enable you to save unit costs a lot. Actually the new concepts leave a lot of room for exploitation IMHO.

The shields saved for unfinished projects decay over time. Does anyone know how fast it decays?

Actually, couldn't you could take it one step further and have multiple different units 1 turn from completion waiting in the queue until they are needed? Obviously it's too early to decide if this is an exploit, but to me it doesn't seem any more exploitive than pre-building was in civ3. And the shield investment will eventually decay.

Back to lurking...

Edit: I see microbe beat me to mentioning the decay.

Got the game but it won't work on either desktop or my sony laptop. I'm 0 for 3 on the PC's I've tried so far. Not happy. Anyway, I'm off to the tech problem forum.

EDIT Disk 1 is 2 and 2 is 2 in my set. I have to use the "install" disk to "play"

Here is a primer on the combat system. Probably a worthwhile read for all AW players.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=140622

Got the game but it won't work on either desktop or my sony laptop.

I am curious what model the laptop is. I just ordered a Sony as I am going back out on the road, and will be quite annoyed if I can't play the game.

I am curious what model the laptop is. I just ordered a Sony as I am going back out on the road, and will be quite annoyed if I can't play the game.


It's a company PC, I just installed the game to see if it would work. :mischief: Anyway, the PC says "S Series" VGN-S460P if that means anything. Sorry to be so :crazyeye: dense, but I didn't order the thing, and I'm not sure what model it is. If you tell me where to look on the PC, I'll tell you what it says.

EDIT: It is working on the Sony. I got one of the sets with mixed up disk #'s. It appears that 2 is 1 and 1 is 2.
Works on the desktop also.
EDIT2:Spoke too soon, not working on desktop. It works on the laptop (which is a company PC, no games :mischief: ahem allowed), but not the desktop. Back to the tech forum...

maybe we should all ask Sullla or Sirian for their exact specs since the game has been optimized for beta testers it seems. feel sorry for you handy.
But here, now it says 7th Nov is shipment date. some claim tomorrow and sat though. This kind of distribution system is horrible to say the least

Another thing to remember in AW, is that hills are no longer the defence power it was, with forests being better.

Another thing to remember in AW, is that hills are no longer the defence power it was, with forests being better.

Yea, but with guerilla upgrade they still rock. But imagine hill with forest..

Well, i got the game, but it crashes frequently (every 5 turns or so) and i also have the bug with tile yield not displayed correctly. I got to 1000BC in my first, but it is quite frustrating to play like that, so i stopped. I'll try to find some help in the tech support forum, and if i don't find any solution i'll have to wait for the first patch :(

There are some significant break points in the formula that give you a step change in the probability of the units to win.

(This is all based on the analysis of the formula given in the link higher in the thread.)

These break points are equivalent in Civ 3 terms to getting an extra hit point or the defender losing one.

attacker higher than defender (attaker 6HP to defenders 5HP)

attacker 40% higher than defender (may be as low as 38%) Attacker 7HP to defenders 5HP

attacker 60% higher than defender

Attacker more than 80% higher than defender.

There are others higher up but the next one is around 150% more (i.e 2.5 times) so by that time its pretty much a done deal

Well, UPS tracking says my copy is here in town. Hopefully I'll have it tomorrow.

Go ahead Bugs. I'm waiting for a new video card to arrive.

just to update you guys...heaven knows which date we will finally get the game here in Singapore. It was stated 31st/2nd/4th/5th/7th but we hear news that it might even be delayed further.
Maybe by the time we would finally get the game take2 has folded already :crazyeye:

I am sorry to keep the team waiting, but I would love to participate. Anyway, I can see this particular SG is seriously stalled at the moment.

I can honestly say, if it weren't for the legacy of Civ, I would not even bother about this any longer. They have gone overboard and I don't care what beta testers tell us. :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

I am sorry to keep the team waiting, but I would love to participate.

Just let us know when you are ready. I have bribed my tech department with beer and pizza in an effort to get my game working.

not sure i want to get away from cxxcxxc out of the box :)

turn 1 1960
explore

turn 2 1920
sheep are hooked up
move to a mine

turn 3 1880
stonehenge done

turn 4 1840
start settler - (then archer I suppose sine they have good defense from a city. I guess we will select city defense as the promotion)

turn 5 1800
-

turn 6 1760
-
turn 7 1720
-
turn 8 1680
-
turn 9 1640
-
turn 10 1600
HBR -> Meditation (i have not read much on religion, so we can switch to masonry if that is better)

err...stuck in the tech screen. save coming up

save uploaded

Just so the team knows what is up with me: I received my game yesterday. Of course I'm having the ATI problems. I followed the instructions on the 2k games site and now my screen looks like I'm in safe mode the whole time. I can't get any of the ATI drivers to load. I may have to do what Handy did, bribe one of my IT techs to help me.

(then archer I suppose sine they have good defense from a city. I guess we will select city defense as the promotion)
well, if what I read is true, we might face an enemy that rather pillages than attacks cities. So, we need a good mix of attacker and defenders.


and as for Civ4 update: latest is 7th Nov now, hope to finally get it on Monday, ironically it's sold online as a download only in the countried that sell it OTC already :crazyeye:

not sure i want to get away from cxxcxxc out of the box

This would be not that usefull at all, because roads in cIV only allow movement at the cost of 1/2 movement point. So a standard unit with one movementpoint can only move 2 spaces. After the tech engineering roads are back to civ3 status, allowing movement at 1/3 movementpoint.

Roster
1. Greebley
2. Mark1031
3. Handy

I guess we could go another round while the others wait for the game.

Play when you get the game (soon I hope).
3. Sir Bugsy
4. ThERat
5. Obormot

This would be not that usefull at all, because roads in cIV only allow movement at the cost of 1/2 movement point.Thanks for the info. :)

maybe wider spacing is necessary due to the maintenance factor that seems so steep in Civ4.
But I do not like the 1/2 movement factor. Well, maybe considering the all maps are so shrunk in size, it's understandable :sad:

maybe wider spacing is necessary due to the maintenance factor that seems so steep in Civ4.
But I do not like the 1/2 movement factor. Well, maybe considering the all maps are so shrunk in size, it's understandable :sad:There is a tech you get (mid Middle Ages?) that gives the standard 3 movement roads.

I think we want a wider spread. If we go for CxxC everywhere we will get few resources before we cannot expand anymore.

Remember that combat will be less intense. We are only playing "regent" AW.

I am not sure if we should go for CxxxC or just go for the best city sites and have each city defend itself. I think I would rather try the latter first.

In other words, lets NOT make city distances the primary criteria. Rather, we can place closer cities only when it makes sense and doesn't cost us anything.

In other words, lets NOT make city distances the primary criteria. Rather, we can place closer cities only when it makes sense and doesn't cost us anything.

:thumbsup: Okay - I am not up to speed at all on C4 yet, so I'll follow your and Mark's lead. C4 seems a good bit different from what little I know. I plan to play and read this weekend. :D

From a little reading I get the impression that there are larger defensive bonuses for archers and otehr units in C4 versus C3. Do you have thoughts about which units will be the best to build?

Tech tree - where do we go?

Religion for AW?

I and probably some lurkers could benefit from any lessons you and others have learned from the manual, or the school of hard knocks.

We definitely want a religion or 2. It will hopefully spread (or we will spread it by force) and give us lots of $$. The best civics are going to be Monarchy, Vassalage, serfdom, I think, a real Medieval holy war. Got to get to construction fast too for cats they are just way powerful in this game but the AI can use them too to good effect:eek:. Collateral damage can be a killer on a long march and if you don't soften up a city forget about it. Unit mix is also critical as there is a counter for everything. Axe men (5HP)were chewing up my powerful Pretorians (8HP) in one game as they get a 50% bonus vs Melee units. I needed to bring my own axe men for cover got to get over building just what appears to be the best unit. At this level and distance one thing we do have is plenty of time to develop before we march off to war. Definitely no CxxC we want each city to stand on its own. There is absolutely no ICS possibility.

Thanks for the Info Mark. I'm getting a better understanding of why no cxxc in C4.

I was a little :blush: embarrassed to be playing AW at such a low level, but this sounds like a whole AW lock for us to pick. :D

Combined arms seems to be important. I agree that city sites seem to be more important as well.

BTW - still no joy on getting this thing to work for me. :mad:

FYI - having good success with early pillaging in a solo game using horse archers.

Those Keshik should be really great for pillaging if they have 2 movement over all terrain. Wisely moved, your opponent will have a very hard time catching up to your pillagers.

if everything goes well, by tonight I should have my copy installed. Well, I don't know for sure if it will work then, but I hope for the best.

If everything is fine, I will play 10 turns to get this game going.

Agree Vol. That was one of the reasons I chose the Mongols. The flexibility of the Keshik. They are not so great at taking towns (though they can), so pillaging is an excellent role for them.

There's no reason to have a UU that takes towns well, when Swordsmen are already so great at it (mmm City Raider III). Take a UU that boosts some other military need. And thats exactly what you've done.

ok, have been playing some game for about 30minutes without crashes, so I'll proceed to play now

sorry if there were any :smoke: moves, but it's still pretty new to me

Pre-Turn
ok, after playing some turns at SP, I feel I should try and get some practise in AW :lol:
by the way, the tech tree is ridiculous
scout has some movement left
check map for best location and decide on NE direction to grab 3 bonus tiles

1. 1560BC
settler done, another archer taks only 1 turn, send archer and settler NE
worker to connect roads

2. 1520BC
our capital is unhappy already, one worker refuses to work
archer is done and starta keshik done in 4, scout spots a barb

3. 1480BC
settler reaches destination with archer following

4. 1440BC
found Karakorum, that needs to expand borders to work something useful

mediatation is in, have a hard time to select bronze working or a tech for a religion
check which religion is done already, can't find any hints, but bhuddism is taken as well already
go for masonry in 5

5. 1400BC
see that I forgot to promote archer which gets city defense

6. 1360BC
go for another worker, since we have only 1, promote keshik with flanking and send him out after the barbs

7. 1320BC
spot barbs east fo karakorum, so send warriors to help out

8. 1280BC
barbs disappeared

9. 1240BC
we have another worker, go for granary for the health (takes 3 turns)

10. 1200BC
road to Karakorum connected, ocne the border expands in a few turns, we can work those bonus
tiles, hamlet will grow to village next turn
once we have granary, we should get another settler out, karakorum is building a rax, then could build mil units

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/handy221200.jpg

IT a lux deal is up with the Celts, too cheap and we need to go to war, so cancel it we get the all important MT, next is flight in 7 at -147gpt


Up to flight already? :eek: I guess you must have mixed up your notes somehow :lol:

ok ok, edited, had some noted from another game in there :lol:

Roster
1. Greebley -up
2. Mark1031
3. Handy
4. ThERat - just played
5. Sir Bugsy - game not running yet
6. Obormot - game not running yet

I got it.

I may work on the pillaging part of the game.

I may work on the pillaging part of the game.my problem was, I didn't even know where the Romans are, somehow it wasn't really clear from the turnlogs, but I guess somewhere in the south

Could someone else try loading the game? Every time I try I get a crash when loading. I want to see if it is the game or my computer.

ThERat, maybe you could provide a new save?

We should keep the old save if it always crashes in case we can get it to Firaxis (and they have interest).

Could someone else try loading the game? Every time I try I get a crash when loading. I want to see if it is the game or my computer.

Loads fine for me.

me too....

now, this spells trouble, it seems to work for others but not you, Greebley??? I will test it out tonight again and maybe save after changing a little bit and then you try again.

This save game thing is also a bit funny, since for Gr9, the name completely changed to some weird nick I guess.

What's the way to prevent this? I opened the save from within the game though...:confused:

I tried downloading it again and this time it worked. I am guessing the download failed in some manner. First time I have had that problem, but I know one reason some ppl like zipped games is that it catches problems like this (bad downloads)>

In any case, it looks like I am all set to play.

ThERat,
I am curious why you were building a granary. We are already over max size in terms of happiness, so the Granary will be of little use.

Since I too am new to the game, I ask because there may be a reason a granary is good that I don't see. The way I see it though:

We are already at Max size - in fact I will stopping our growth.

Building settlers and workers doesn't shrink our town so we will not have to grow until we get more happiness - perhaps from Monarchy.

My plan is to switch the granary to start on Keshiks. I want to do hurt to the Romans.

BTW, if you look very closely you can see purple borders to the far south. I should have mentioned that in my first report. This is where Rome is located.

I will play tonight.

Greebley, forget about that granary, it was a great :smoke: noobie move

I simply mistook health and happiness and thought it would help us grow, but obviously it doesn't. You can send it to the backburner for a while and produce something more useful...sorry for that

No problem. We are all learning. Please point out any moves that I make that are sub-optimal. I am sure I will make them :D

Preturn: Turn off growth since any new citizends will be unhappy. Switch Granary to a Keshik.

Early: Build a Keshik - I put the Keshiks on "repeat" it will start building the next one right away (use ALT when you select the unit to do this).

Spot a Barb.
Also see a Purple city closer to us. I have to get used to borders that do not appear until you see them. It still suprises me.
Get Bronze Working (we have copper to the NE) and start Iron Working.

Mid: We connect the gold. Gold is a Lux resource that makes the last citizen in our capitol happy.

We attack and Auto-destroy the first Roman city of Cumae with two Keshiks. By taking flanking first we can put increased visibility on the second. With the ability to see an extra square and to move through all terrains freely, our Keshik will be hard to catch if we are careful. The other one gets flanking twice (Negates First strike and 20 chance of retreat).

Late: Capture Antium (size 4)

Kill 2 archers guarding a Settler and get a free worker (some things never change :D )

We see 7 Iron total - 5 on our side of the border.

Notes:
I wasn't sure if I was to play 10 or 20 turns, so I just played to a logical breaking point. We have had our first victory over the AI and are poised to continue the attack next turn. We have 4 Keshik near Antium with another a turn and a half away. I suspect we can take out rome. I think we also want to do so before Rome gains its attack 8 UU. I would keep building Keshiks for a bit longer. Rome might be a tough nut. Spearmen may also be bad for us, so we want to try to hit before their copper is hooked up (if they have any). Note that our capitol has 18 hammers/shields and can build Keshiks in 3 turns.

We are building a settler in our Second town. There is a forest chop occuring that will build it quicker. We can choose either to go for Copper, Iron, or neither. I am thinking Iron because a swordsman is good where the Keshiks are weak.

Be aware of which Keshik have the extended vision range, which retreat, and which have higher attack. Also some have more promotions than others. Keep this in mind and use the enhancments to maximize their benefit.

Going after Barbarians is well worth it as it gives us the last experience to get a second promotion.

I would also go for Rome last unless it is clear we can win. We want to hurt them as much as we can if the attack on the capitol fails. Remember to use the right mouse button to see the odds before the attack. if our attacks are not going well then pillage instead.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a251/Greebley/HNDY22_BC600.jpg

great turns Greebley :goodjob:

I wonder to which point it will be beneficial to keep enemy towns. With the increased upkeep for them it might be better after a while to simply raze them. This is something we need to establish while we play AW. I guess nobody really knows yet, what is best.

I just thought of something. I think some civics cause war weariness, some don't, and some to a level in between. I could be totally wrong, or this is something you all should check out.

I would keep good towns and get rid of bad ones. The distances aren't large enough to make distance corruption too large and we can choose how many towns we want based on how many we settle.

I see no reason to raze the towns actually, unless they are far away. Anything on our island seems reasonable.

Another thought is that since we are building Keshik instead of settlers - by keeping the towns we are staying closer to the number of towns we should have. I think razing will put us under the number of towns we want to be at.

[Edit: I am guessing that we will be keeping early and late (if we want domination) acquisitions and razing middle ones as a general pattern in AW.

Roster
1. Greebley - Just Played
2. Mark1031 - up
3. Handy - On Deck (if not still away)
4. ThERat -
5. Sir Bugsy - game not running yet :cry:
6. Obormot - Are you working now?

I read somewhere a patch is coming soonish.

Going after Barbarians is well worth it as it gives us the last experience to get a second promotion.

I would also go for Rome last unless it is clear we can win. We want to hurt them as much as we can if the attack on the capitol fails. Remember to use the right mouse button to see the odds before the attack. if our attacks are not going well then pillage instead.
Couple of lurker notes: Holding [alt] while having one of your units selected and hovering over an enemy unit also displays the odds without the risk of accidentally attacking. And barbs only give up to a certain amount of XP, I think 10.

600BC: Move Keshiks forward and see Rome is defended by only 3 archers.

575: Priesthood->writing

550: Barbs showing up around home front. 4 mighty Keshiks cross the Rubicon.

525: Loose 2 Keshiks to kill 2 archers and leave 1 HP archer defending. Clean up some barb warriors on the home front.

500: We take Rome with no losses and Caesar is no more. Also capture a worker. Romans are listed as 0 power but not eliminated?? I have never eliminated a civ, does this mean he has a settler?

475: Grumpus Keshik-> settler

450: Writing in -> Code of laws to get a religion. Karkoum Settler->Library.

425-350: Found new city and fend off barbs. It appears we have cleared our continent and will have only barbs to contend with. We should try to spread out as much as possible to suppress barb activity. Settler in Grumpus I would head west which is where the primary barb action is coming from. Make sure you move that Keshik into undefended Beshbalik as a barb is approaching. The barbs will continue to be a pain for some time. We will hopefully get Confusinism with CoL. Make sure you use the prophet that is coming in Grumpus to build our shrine.

Romans are listed as 0 power but not eliminated?? I have never eliminated a civ, does this mean he has a settler?
Check the event log, as it's easy to miss the announcement that someone has been eliminated.

any eliminanted Civ will be listed with a 0 score. Maybe someone can mod that feature.

Anyway, there is an alternative way to get towns up, let the barbs create them and then we take them, that way we can also promote our units. Fighting barb towns gives ex points beyong 5exp.

By the way, who is up now, since handy is still away until Friday night. Obormot, is Civ4 running for you?

Anyway, there is an alternative way to get towns up, let the barbs create them and then we take them, that way we can also promote our units. Fighting barb towns gives ex points beyong 5exp.

If they use good placement that will work. Much better than civ III but still I don't think the AI placement is optimal. Also I hear that barbs will only promote you up to a certain point not sure what that is. I will have to see what we need to get overseas wars going (optics I think) and we should try to circumnavigate first the globe for the +1 ship movement.

Barb animals up to 5 exp. Barb people up to 10.

By the way, who is up now, since handy is still away until Friday night. Obormot, is Civ4 running for you?

If no response and you are ready to play then I would post your "I got it" and play. Obormot could play after you. The time you play the game tends to be rather unique given your time zone. :D

[Edit: We have another peaceful AW on our hands. Our early attack was almost too successful. How can we learn about the AI expert tactics when they are dead before they get any meaningful units?

As an aside, I think the early attack is going to be strong at least for AWN. If we do win this, I think we should try a Pangea next so we get a better idea of the AI's early moves before moving up. One opponent is clearly not much of a challenge - This isn't suprising, if the AI threw all its resources into units early and attacked, it would kill a normal human start in the same way.

The time you play the game tends to be rather unique given your time zone.that's the nice thing, I can always play after the US and before Europe :)

I agree with your analysis. This game is too weird now, no opposition means also no way to promote our units, which would have been nice. Witht the fact that promotions are kept when upgrading units, we can get some units on steroids, that are so valuable that we don't want to use them :lol:

Maybe, after this, a pangaea is needed at this level. By the way, with AW checked, all victory conditions still apply?

And finally, I will post a 'got it' tonight, if Obormot doesn't have it by then.

IIRC, choosing the victory conditions is distinct from choosing AW. I didn't turn any off, so I suspect they are all on - if any are off - it is by accident.

I think we set up our empire to claim the island the best we can and then go off and search for foes (if they haven't found us already).

The game is not running yet for me. Maybe after the patch. Sorry that i didn't make it clear earlier.

I am about to throw my Civ IV and my laptop right out the window. This very depressing :cry:

save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/GreebleyBC-0100.Civ4SavedGame)

Pre-Turn
MM and can reduce research by 1 turn due to Rome tile assignments to water (2 gold each)
so, it's 7 turns to CoL at -18gpt
change capital to library as well sicne it will boost science
we need more workers badly and could hook up stone for wonders
keep the prophet to rush a temple if we get a religion

1. 325BC
kill 1 barb with keshik and move one into Beshbalik to fight off barb (odds to fight it were not good)

IT Keshik defeats the barb axeman attacking the town

2. 300BC
keshik takes out another warrior and barely survives
send out settler south to clse the gap with Roman towns

3. 275BC
worker at Antium starts on quarry

4. 250BC
this is tricky, 2 barbs near capital and we have only 1 keshik

IT lose a warrior that covers a mine in capital, but it finishes library and will finish a keshik next turn

5. 225BC
move in another keshik to help out, can attack next turn

IT one barb pillages a mine, revenge, but more brabs sighted, this is getting a bit out of hand

6. 200BC
defeat both barbs at capital that wanted to pillage further, but there are 2 more in the east threatening us
also promote on keshik to flanking 2, since we could get additional movement with next promotion
due to the barbs the tile assingments have been changed and capital grew to 8 and is unhappy now
move archer out of Karakorum to help since it will get another archer next turn anyway

IT warrior defends against barb in Beshbalik
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/handy22200.jpg
revolt to get state religion as soon as possible

7. 175BC
our founding city is Antium and not Grumpus prime. Well...
found Turfan in the jungle next to sugar

IT we adopt the state religion

8. 150BC
we have way too many towns at this level, income is horrendous
have to reduce science to 50% and still have -3gpt
we need more money, thus currency, so go for maths next
send our Great Prophet towards Antium and the missionary towards capital

IT our religion spread to Rome already, this give us 1gpt more :)

9. 125BC
zzz

10. 100BC
defeat another barb near capital
missionary and propht moving, but they have a long march
MM again for maximising of coins
we can now run at 50% and make -1gpt
I suggest to swap Grumpus prime to a wonder after keshik next turn, with stone connected it's half prize
we should make use of that
we should also get some courts in Antium and Rome to reduce maintenance cost

by the way, we could also consider hiring a scientist in Grumpus Prime, this would help research and great people generation
of course we slow down production, specialists seem powerful here

our land at the moment
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/handy22100.jpg

Consider a courthouse in Rome. It will have the highest maintanance. Antium could do the same after the library.

I think Courthouses are pretty important in Civ4. 1/2 maint cost + we can later build the FP when we have 6 or so.

Wondering: do you guys have a plan for dealing with war weariness? It seems like it can get pretty substantial even without AW. Might want to consider going for Pyramids so you can get Police State civic early...

Greebley, you are right, we should build courts there.

Next player, make sure you send the missionary and prohet into the right directions, since they are both somewhere near Turfan.
Missionary to Grumpus to spread our religion faster in the north, prophet to Antium to rush that temple there.

Roster
1. Greebley - up
2. Mark1031 - away until 16th I think
3. Handy - back this weekend
4. ThERat - just played
5. Sir Bugsy - game not running, laptop in the trashbin
6. Obormot - waiting for the path

Wondering: do you guys have a plan for dealing with war weariness? It seems like it can get pretty substantial even without AW. Might want to consider going for Pyramids so you can get Police State civic early...

Well our first plan is to not have enemies... :mischief: :lol:

To answer your question - no - I have no idea how WW works in Civ4. It is something I personally need to research. It is probably an important topic though.

For example, do we suffer WW if we have all the base civics? I do not (yet) know.

I see we are still alive :thumbsup:
I'll play a little solo now so that after Greebley is done I'll have 1/2 a clue what to do.
I read the manual some on the trip (and played a few solo turns on the laptop) and I do not like what they have done to cats and cannon at all.

Roster
1. Greebley - up
2. Mark1031 - away until 16th I think
3. Handy - back home
4. ThERat - just played
5. Sir Bugsy - game not running, laptop in the trashbin
6. Obormot - waiting for the path

I got it. Get to play a lot this weekend :D

Early: We build the Kong Miao - Confucian World Wonder and spread conf to the capitol.

Mid: Conf Continues to spread. We see Barbs W of the Capitol

Late: Lose a Keshik on Defense vs an Axeman.


Notes:
I think we need to grab Iron and Copper ASAP so we can start building unti variety. I started settlers for this.

There seem to still be some nice sites letf. I think we can build some if we prioritize courthouses in cities that need them.

Sorry for the lackluster log. I am a bit tired.

until we meet someone from the other continent, this will be fairly quiet and we will miss those promotions.

Just as a sidenote. I am playing a little AW to test things, especially war weariness and I am a little puzzled.

I got some WW (1 unhappy face) while on organized religion and slavery. However, after I took out a capital that was closeby, the WW disappeared. I think the manual is totally useless in this respect. We need someone to tell us which civis can produce WW and under which conditions. I suffered WW in a normal game even under police state together with nationhood. Well, they should have provided some info since you can even flag AW games.

Maybe some beta tester would know better. I would really appreciate any tips.

As for the comment about cats/cannons. They are still very powerful. In order to take any city in the middle/latter game, they are essential. They are pretty useless on defense but to clobber down the defense bonus and maybe sacrifice some for collateral damage, they are a must.

Roster
1. Greebley - just played
2. Mark1031 - away until 16th I think
3. Handy - Got It
4. ThERat - on deck
5. Sir Bugsy - game not running, laptop in the trashbin
6. Obormot - waiting for the patch

Agree on the need for cats and cannon to take cities, but the fact you cannot use them in open terrain without attacking with them (risking their loss) is a big change. And the inability to capture them is also a drag. I suppose they were so over powered in C3 they decided to change then dramatically to force us into a tactic change. They also don't need an escort anymore, which also requires a mindset change.

I won an AW noble yesterday [ holiday no work :D ] and will write a bit more about that as we go. It was an underwhelming win, but very instructive. Rat I became very bogged down by WW in my solo game, and wound up building a lot of happy buildings and using some MP to solve the issue. Surprise - you can grow past size 12 with no hospital, and past 6 with no aqueduct. Both improvements provide "health", but you can grow without them.

Lurker Comment:
If you are still wondering what civics have an effect on WW, from Civ4CivicInfos.xml the only one that does anything is Police State and that has a value of -50, maybe a percentage?


<CivicOptionType>CIVICOPTION_GOVERNMENT</CivicOptionType>
<Type>CIVIC_POLICE_STATE</Type>
<iWarWearinessModifier>-50</iWarWearinessModifier>

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/Civ4ScreenShot00041.JPG

Pre Turn
We should consider a beeline to Optics so we can train Caravels and make our move on the other continent. BTW - writing is required for caravels. I plan to choose the cheap techs to get us caravels.

Turn 1 125 ad
Kill barb

Turn 2 150
Math -> Metal casting (On the way to Caravels)
Start a farm on the sugar. We need a plantation after we learn Calenadar.

Turn 3 175
Grumpud – Keshik – Settler

Turn 4 200
Kill barbs
Rome – settler – court

Turn 5 225 ad
Kill some barbs

Turn 6 250 ad
Found Ning-hsia -> Granary

Turn 7 275
Keshik dies attacking archer in the barb city of Illinois.

Turn 8 300
Karkorum – setter – settler
Turfan – rax – Keshik

Turn 9 325
Grumpus – setter – settler
Antium - Court – settler

Turn 10 350
Found Old Sarai – rax
Settler is in a spot on the coast where he can get flood plains and the iron after borders expand. We will want coastal cities to build ships for the assault on the other continent

save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/GreebleyAD-0580.Civ4SavedGame)

Pre-Turn
ok ,first our tech tree, we are currently going for metal casting
In order for optics we need sailing, compass and machinery
I'd go for sailing next since we can at least build a galley first to sail our continent

we currently have stone and horses, but iron and copper are available outside our territory
we're spamming settler that will kill our economy, will see about that
stop the settler in Rome and switch to a court, it costs us 8gpt maintenace
also go for keshik in the capital, someone got to accompany all those settlers

1. 375AD
kill 1 archer in barb town, only one left now

2. 400AD
promote keshik to strength 2 and attack again taking out that town for 16g, now we have made way for another powerful
city. Thus found New Sarai, that gives us iron, good food and some hills for productivity
our income drops to -9gpt

3. 425AD
spot a barb sword close to New Sarai

4. 450AD
the barbs are now coming from the north, we better get some keshiks there
do not attack the sword since the odds are against us
MM again to optimize for commerce rather than shields and income improves to -3gpt at 50% research, metal casting still in 3

IT barb sword decides to attack but loses against keshik

5. 475BC
kill another barb warrior, now there is only 1 warrior left that the keshik, that is ready next turn in Grumps Prime can handle

6. 500AD
Antium gets a settler, we need to improve the hills there for shields since it can't grow that much, go for a worker
a new barb town has popped up and cut our empire in half, that's not good at all
nothing much I can do at the moment, pull keshiks south

IT we get metal casting, detour for currency, without markets we run bankrupt soon

7. 520AD
take out the first of 2 archers in that town
destroy another warrior in the north

8. 540AD
found Samarqand and our income is totally down at -12gpt
it starts a work boat for the clams
promote the keshik and attack town, take it out and our empire is 1 again, we get 8 gold for that
reduce science to 40% and income is at -4gpt

9. 560AD
zzz

10. 580AD
population grew some last IT and income improves a little
kill an axeman that popped up in the west

Grumpus Prime will finish another keshik next turn, suggest to go for forge for added happiness and science beakers
the rest badly needs courthouses, especially the south
there is 1 settler parked in the capital, found cities now costs us dearly, so be prudent about that

Karakorums hamlet will turn into a village next turn, more income that way as well

iron is connected and copper in now inside our borders at Old Sarai

our land at the moment
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/handy23580.jpg

Good call on the courts Rat. I played shadow turns, and the early expansion really kills the economy - the opposite of C3. You also make a good point about sailing - it is a good tech and perhaps one I should have chosen for galleys [and sailing also gets you 2 food per coastal tile in each city].

Roster
1. Greebley - UP
2. Mark1031 - away until 16th I think
3. Handy -
4. ThERat - just played
5. Sir Bugsy - game not running, laptop in the trashbin
6. Obormot - waiting for the patch

Bugs and Obo - let us know if your game starts working.

I got it.

I will work on the economy I think.

Preturn:
I speed up Rome's Courthouse by 2 turns. We were growing which is useless - we are at the happiness limit.

I am concerned by our lack of using built and building cottages. We have too few cottages in the first place I think. In some cases it looked like we were using water squares over cottage squares - sure that gives us +1 gold now, but longer term it is a bad decision. We need to work those squares so that they will grow in Money. We need to build more of them. I know they look like junk (often a 2 food, 1 gold square), but if we had been working on them we would be a bit better off in terms of economy. Try to use all cottage squares a city has unless there is an emergency.

Switched some cities to Courthouses. BTW, I think we should go for the FP in Rome to reduce distance costs. Our island will remain our main source of cities so I don't think waiting until we get off continent cities is a good idea.

Early: Work on getting 6 Courthouses

Mid: We get Aristotle and build an Academy in Grumpus Prime

Late: Build Tabriz to grab Iron and Pigs using a settler we had lying around. Use forest chops to speed some courthouses.

Notes:
We currently have 4 out of 6 Courhouses we need for the FP. I would switch Rome to FP when we get them in about 5 turns.

I really think we want the Monarchy Tech next! Our cities are hitting max happiness everywhere and I had to work inferior squares to stop growth. Once we have Monarchy units give us Happiness (MP's). Since we have huge health bonus but terrible happiness one, we should have probably gotten this tech a while ago. I even set Monarchy to the next tech (to remind the next player).

When cities grow, make sure they work good squares (and readjust all towns when getting Monarchy to allow growth). I have built a few cottages for towns to grow into. Not sure if they will be automatically picked. I would keep the cottages as being worked when possible (a short term adjustment to grow before using cottage may make sense in some cases).

So the most important points I think are :
1) Pay attention to cottages, courthouses and FP for getting science back up. We need to work cottages so the grow to towns with 4 or 5 commerce.
2) Get monarchy so our cities can grow past size 6-8 using MP. It will also provide and incentive to build units. I don't think our towns are safe from Foreign Invasion.

We are number 1 in everything but gold (number 5) and Approval (number 6)

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a251/Greebley/HNDY22_AD800.jpg

Greebley - I DON'T SEE A SAVE
Since Mark is away I will start playing this now and try to follow Greebley's advice.

Roster
1. Greebley -
2. Mark1031 - away until 16th I think
3. Handy - UP
4. ThERat - just played
5. Sir Bugsy - game not running, laptop in the trashbin
6. Obormot - waiting for the patch

Bugs and Obo - let us know if your game starts working.

Ok, I added it above. I am not sure how I missed it, I thought I had checked it. That means that I probably forgot the upload button AND didn't notice when I checked. Blort!

Turn 1 820
Rome – Ax man – forge
Kill 2 barbs
I suppose it is best to build cottages on grass and irrigate plains where possible (river allows it). You need the biology tech to be able to bring water via irrigation away from a river tile, so placing cottages on plains will limit growth.

Turn 2 840
Samarqand – workboat heads to the fish for a health point- court.
New Sarai granary –court
Lose 1 Keshik killing a barb sword

Turn 3 860
--

Turn 4 880
Beshbalik – court – forge
Karkorum is 7 unhappy 6 happy. Monarchy should help.

Turn 5 900
Antium - Monastery – Forbidden Palace.

Turn 6 920
Ning-hsia – court – forge
We get a health point for the fish.
Economy looking better, so we can start building settlers again

Turn 7 940
Revolt to Monarchy
Select Sailing since it allows us to build the lighthouse (2 food from coast ) and galleys
Old Sarai – rax – Keshik

Turn 8 960
No more happiness problems in the short term due to the use of MP
MM to get cities growing again since we have the health and happiness to support it.

Turn 9 980
-

Turn 10 1000
Kill barb axe man
In position to kill a barb archer with a Keshik near Grumpus next turn.
Several forges in progress. Then we can build a balance of settlers to grab the rest of the land, MP for happiness, markets for cash and library / monasteries for research.
Turfan needs mines
Remember lighthouse makes sea tiles give 2 food.
Research – I set it for Alphabet (6)-> Literature (5) so we could build the Heroic epic (+100% Military unit production). We need Calendar (7) to build sugar and silk plantations, but calendar also obsoletes Stonehenge. At this point we can defer the silk and sugar plantations I think. I thought we might want to delay on calendar and milk Stonehenge for the cultural border expansion. You can switch research if we want something else.

http://static.flickr.com/33/63372278_44186ea6d9_o.jpg

http://static.flickr.com/29/63372277_0a0334acf1_o.jpg

http://static.flickr.com/33/63372275_d561c68e51_o.jpg

http://static.flickr.com/32/63372276_473a152379_o.jpg

Roster
1. Greebley -
2. Mark1031 - away until 16th I think
3. Handy -
4. ThERat - up
5. Sir Bugsy - game not running, laptop in the trashbin
6. Obormot - waiting for the patch

The research path looks good, I agree on delaying obsoleting stonehenge.

I noticed during my turns already that Beshbalik is a shield powerhouse. Should we build the Heroic epic there for military production while keeping the capital and Antium free for other stuff?

I think we can now fill the rest of the land while keeping a check on the economy and going for caravels at some point.

got it, play tonight

Should we build the Heroic epic there for military production while keeping the capital and Antium free for other stuff?

Okay.

The forge is a nice build, like an ancient factory. Turfan will have a ton of shields also, but needs mines first. It has plenty of food to pair with mines.

I think a town to the North and Northwest to keep an eye on the whole island makes sense.

We will want more than 1 unit in coastal cities pretty soon.

W may be okay for a while longer. Caravels cannot transport any troops, and galleys cannot enter the ocean.

save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/GreebleyAD-1100.Civ4SavedGame)

Pre-Turn
change tile assignment in Rome and settler goes from 4 to 3 (working the valuable fish now)

1. 1010AD
Beshbalik forge -> rax, after all the heroic epic will be there
also realise that we do lack workers in the south

2. 1020AD
grumpus Prime: forge -> settler to cover the north
killa barb warrior in the north
incareas research to 60% at -2gpt

3. 1030AD
Rome settler -> worker
Beshbalik rax -> keshik

Sistine has been completed elsewhere

4. 1040AD
Beshbalik keshik -> archer for coastal defense later on
Taosim has been founded in a distant land as well
a sword is close to our borders however with forrest bonus I let him come closer first

IT we get alphabet, however need polytheism before literature

5. 1050AD
use an exp 5 keshik to finish off the barb sword

IT poly is in, literature next in 3

6. 1060AD
Grumpus settler -> colossus in 8, it's not bad a wonder
Beshbalik archer -> sword
defeat a barb in the north for a 10/10 promotion

7. 1070AD
Karakorum forge -> galley
Rome worker -> lighthouse
Old Sarai keshik -> court

by the way, we can spot some Island east of Old Sarai

8. 1080AD
Karakorum galley -> lighthouse
Beshbalik sword -> keshik for 1 turn

defeat another barb

IT we get literature go for compass next on the way to optics

9. 1090AD
New Sarai rax -> forge
Beshbalik changed to Heroic Epic
kill barb archer

10. 1100AD
we get the message that the colossus can't be built any longer
at least we get 119g for that
change Grumpus to Great Library, this can be changed maybe to National Epic

found Tiflis in the northwest

doing deficit research at the moment, the FP is done next turn and should improve things
I would go for optics in a direct way, maybe churn out a few more settlers soon
One settler is on the way north to grab the whale spot

This game has zero AW feelings at the moment, hope something will happen here

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/handy221100.jpg

Ok, I got it.

change Grumpus to Great Library, this can be changed maybe to National Epic I have not yet gotten a handle on pre-builds in this game. What is switchable and what is not? Perhaps I am missing something, but the city screens suggest to me that some shields are not tranferrable from one unit to the next as they were in C3.

I have not yet gotten a handle on pre-builds in this game. What is switchable and what is not? no hammers can be transferred, but since I only started on this build on turn 10, we can swap to any build without losing a thing.

In fact, the no transfer of hammers isn't very nice for SG games where people have different preferences and sometimes change builds. Now, you can't really do that anymore.

You keep the shields (for a while at least) so you can prioritize something ahead of something else. It is true if you swap something out long enough, you do lose the shields.

So if I think a Courthouse is more important than barracks, I simply put the Courthouse in front of the barracks. When the Courthouse finishes, the barracks start up where they were left off.

So if I think a Courthouse is more important than barracks, I simply put the Courthouse in front of the barracks. When the Courthouse finishes, the barracks start up where they were left off.

Okay. That's what it looked like (Have not read the manual yet of course :lol:). But unlike C3 where you could switch a rax to a granary and use the same shields, in C4 you cannot prebuild or "switch" a build and use shields accumulated for a rax for a granary. They are 2 separate builds with their "own" shields.

That is my understanding, Handy.

Additionally, waiting loses hammers in some manner after a certain amount of time (not sure how or how long before losing somethinge - I have just heard it is true)

Also if a World Wonder is built, then you get gold for the shields spent on that wonder - no idea how much gold you get but it seems about 1 per hammer or so.

Also if a World Wonder is built, then you get gold for the shields spent on that wonder - no idea how much gold you get but it seems about 1 per hammer or so.We should be able to establish that formula, since we were building the colossus for 4 turns and got 109gold for that. I guess your estimate must be about right, actually not a shabby amount since you won't get that when you set the city on wealth.
Someone should also fogure out how many turns it takes for the hammers to start dropping. I have yet to notice any effect.

Ya, I am curious. It doesn't seem to decay right away which would make sense. I also wonder if keeping it as the "next item" would keep it from decaying.

lurkers comment: I believe the hammer overun of the previous build goes into the next one, so they aren't lost. Same goes for research.

Good luck on finding some battles to fight in the AW game.;)

ya, that is also true. Keeps one from needing to MM to match shields - something I am glad for.

I have not yet gotten a handle on pre-builds in this game. What is switchable and what is not? Perhaps I am missing something, but the city screens suggest to me that some shields are not tranferrable from one unit to the next as they were in C3.

There are no more prebuilds.

You guys seem to have worked that out on your own, but I'm confirming it. :)

This doesn't affect SGs as much as you think. Yes, you inherit more mass*inertia from the previous turn, but you also pass on more. This may require players to work more as a team, but players will adapt. :)


- Sirian

I will be out from Nov 18th through Nov 28th. Computer access will be limited. I plan to finish my current turn before I go. Skip me if my turn comes up.

while playing this game, I wanted to bring up 2 issues that concern me

1. WW, as we have discussed already. Now, once emancipation [edited] is available it will actually cause unhappiness if you do not adopt that. But, in AW you can hardly switch to that due to WW. I would really like to know which combination of civics causes NO WW. I mean there simply has to be an equivalent of despotism/monarchy/communism. Else, the game needs to be modded to be playable.

2. Artillery: I think is really a broken concept in Civ4 IHMO. Yes, I know they can reduce the defense of a city to 0%. But, with the amount of defenders put into a city now, it is painful to attempt to take towns in the core of a Civ. It takes a lot of suiciders to be thrown at the city. And once the city defense is down to 0%, the artillery sits around unless you don't mind suiciding them. Also, beware that with the fast tech pace, while you are sieging a town, the defenders might snuggly be upgraded.

Well, maybe this game is odd since we are at peace now for so long, but it will be interesting to find out how playable AW is in Civ4. So, far my experience is that this game was designed for AC wins. Other options are painful in comparison.

I don't mean to intrude on your thread, but point #1 is not true. Universal Suffrage has no effect on war weariness - in fact, none of the civics affect war weariness at all except for Police State, which reduces it by 50%. The unhappiness effect from Emancipation (if that's what you were thinking about) is an entirely separate issue. :)

With regards to #2, I will respectfully disagree. You can take cities without high losses - and without the need to use suicide units - if you pick the right promotions and be careful with what you're doing. Siege units work very different in Civ4 compared to Civ3, but - I'd argue - they are much less broken than before, IMO. In our Cuban game, we've been able to take tons of cities with relatively light losses due to careful management of our forces. Just my 2 cents, of course. :D

thanks for the clarifications Sullla. I seem to mix up US and emancipation, my bad :blush:

none of the civics affect war weariness at all except for Police State, which reduces it by 50%.
If this is true that means that in AW you would definitely face WW until you switch to police state, which only reduces the effect by 50%. That would be truly bad news.

Siege units work very different in Civ4 compared to Civ3, but - I'd argue - they are much less broken than before, IMO.Well, I think the only reason why they were broken was due to the fact that the AI didn't know how to use them properly.
Of course, I am able to take down cities as well, but it's a long process that seems to take up huge resources and in turn allows the AI to run away technologically. Hopefully, I am wrong here.

Artillery comes at the same time as Flight. So you can use bombers to knock out city defense and then cause collateral damage.

Earlier I find it is not a problem to bring 1 or 2 extra bombardment units to sacrifice. In fact they may even survive.

Late game you can use collateral damage promotions for tanks and let them take on the role.

will be interesting to find out how playable AW is in Civ4.
So far (in this and solo games) AW is less fun for me than it was in C3. It is a combination of things I like less about C4 than C3. I don't like the artillery changes at all, nor the penalty for expansion of your empire. Two moves versus 3 seems to make the game drag. Perhaps I will like it better as I play it more, but so far it is less fun than C3 to me. Perhaps they were trying to make the game more balanced by taking away armies and "fixing" artillery,but they took the fun stuff away.

I have managed to scam a older laptop from work that I am loading right now. We'll see if this one works. Pray to the Civ gods. :worship:

Edit - Nevermind....(throw both laptops and his Civ IV box set in the trash...again)

I'll have to wait for the patch.

(Digs computers and box set out of trash ....again)

oh no, Bugs, hopefully the patch will help you, we need you to participate in this game!

So far (in this and solo games) AW is less fun for me than it was in C3. It is a combination of things I like less about C4 than C3. I don't like the artillery changes at all, nor the penalty for expansion of your empire. Two moves versus 3 seems to make the game drag. Perhaps I will like it better as I play it more, but so far it is less fun than C3 to me. Perhaps they were trying to make the game more balanced by taking away armies and "fixing" artillery,but they took the fun stuff away.Unfortunately I have to agree on this one. I also find the slow movement very annoying (it makes game play very slow, in combination with slow expansion it feels even draggier).
Actually the whole game plays very slow with a lot of attention on buildings and specialists, culture etc. It might be more balanced, but it's less fun.
The reason why people think the game is very exciting is because they read Sullla/Sirian's threads, but it's their way of writing that makes the game look exciting.

I wonder how you can counter massive AI attacks without artillery defense. What will happen now is that the AI will pillage your land and you need to fight in the open I guess. People might say it's a different concept and very fun in itself, but I have yet to see that.

Slowness is not much of an issue, to me. Combine stacks moved slow in III over enemy lands.

Pillage is going to be a tougher nut to crack, but they cannot bombard tiles from the sea at least. You will just have to defend the core improvements and take your lumps outside of that area.

Cats (read cats/cannon/arty) will be more important to do collateral on stacks to keep your kill ratio up. You just have to keep replacing them.

I forgot to mention Mt. Rushmore and Jails. Rushmore is 25% WW reduction and coupled with the civic goes a long way.

Jails are only going to get the 25% if they are the only thing you have. Otherwise it is 25% of the remainder of WW. So if you have the civic it will yield 12.5% in any town that has the jail.

So you cannot get 100% reduction in any event. Best case is 50 for civic, 25 for Rushmore and 6.25 for a jail, but you have to have a jail in all towns and that may be too expensive.

Cats (read cats/cannon/arty) will be more important to do collateral on stacks to keep your kill ratio up. You just have to keep replacing them.

Thanks for the excellent info vmxa.

That's the way I have been playing it so far. The WW and the inability to bombard the AI without risking the loss of your cats may limit us to 1 level up from AWN. We lose too many units to compete with AI production bonus. I agree with you Rat about the slow game play. I do not really like the graphics and animation. The graphics make it hard to tell friend from foe without the color uniforms of C3. "Builders" and people that like animation will probably love C4 though. [edit - yes I turned animation off where I could, and set the display for 1 unit instead of three]. Still it is hard [for me anyway] to tell a cottage from a workshop, and tell friend from foe unless you zoom in and out a lot. I hope one of the graphics mod packages comes up with more obvious unanimated units and improvements.

I miss the armies alot, and I don't understand why they took them out since they were so much fun. Limit their movement as in the original C3 and program the AI to attack armies if need be. I was looking forward to the fun of figuring the game out, but the more I understand it, the less I like it. The changes to artillery, armies, and the loss of the excitement of leader farming have taken away much of the fun of war in C4. :(

Oh well, to each his own...

Did you go to Options, Graphics and select No Combat Zoom? That stops the animation for the fights. Then you can leave on the 3 member units animation.


I like that as it is easy to see how much damage was done, without the health bar.

I played last night but the forums went down.

Not that much happened.

We formed a city in the north.

I took a small detour for Drama and Monotheism, because they were fast to get and because I like the cheap theatres. Otherwise am working toward optics.

changed civics to organized religion and caste system. That is more expensive, but we can have have specialists when we need them. We may want to make a few.

I agree that Civ4 is less suited to AW compared to Civ 3. This comes as no suprise to me. However, there is a lot to explore that is new which is interesting in its own right - I think we will have fun exploring it. I also don't think we will be dropping playing Civ3 for Civ4 any time soon.

Unfortunately, this game has little to do with AW at the moment.

I played last night but the forums went down.

Unfortunately, this game has little to do with AW at the moment.

Sorry to butt in again, but I have enjoyed all the SG's you all played in III, at least the ones I read.

If you want to have AWN play like AW, turn on raging barbs. That made my game almost too lively. Otherwise you may have a fair distance to the next civs and then it will be a big wait for them to show up.

Of course when they do, it will put pressure on you to protect your workers and improvements, let alone your towns. Just be sure to not have very many turns from the time you start dealing with barb axes and the time you clear their ability to spawn.

Axemen are tough even for Horse Archers. I was counting on the AI to settle enough to forestall so many barbs, but war must have made them slower to expand.

I'm back and have got it or more accurately will get it tonight. I must say that I find civIV much more fun, but then again I did not play that much AW. Civ III had become very formulaic. The ability to get 30 or 40:1 kill ratios (and then complaining when a knight loses t0 a 1 HP spearman after killing 100) when at the same tech level or even behind is a sign to me that something was broken and really made it rather boring just slogging through 100s of units to an almost certain win. I think there is a ton of strategy to explore in this game for AW as well as for the other win conditions. I think your enjoyment of civIV is inversely related to how bored you were with civIII. I find the civIV AI greatly improved, the possibility for exploits almost eliminated (I'm sure we will eventually find some) and the balance and strategic considerations also much improved. It does have a very different feel but for me at least that is part of the fun.

If you want to have AWN play like AW, turn on raging barbsNo thanks for me, I am usually quite annoyed with too many barbs, some more thyey give units promotions until exp10 only.
I rather have more AI's on the same continent.

Welcome back Mark. :D
Thanks for the encouraging and positive words about C4. I still miss armies though - they were so much fun.

Roster
1. Greebley - [gone 11-18 to 11-28]
2. Mark1031 - has it
3. Handy
4. ThERat -

5. Sir Bugsy - game not running, laptop in the trashbin
6. Obormot - waiting for the patch

The lack of a monarchy govt. equal in Civ4 has me with ZERO interest in trying AW. AW with WW just plain sucks.

I do understand some of the negative comments on Civ4. Some of my fears have come true in that it would get obsessed with being "pretty". I will take ugly any day of the week if it is more fun.

As for going back to Civ3, it won't happen for me as I already threw the CD in the trash as the burnout was 100%.

[delurk] The lack of a monarchy govt. equal in Civ4 has me with ZERO interest in trying AW. AW with WW just plain sucks.

I do understand some of the negative comments on Civ4. Some of my fears have come true in that it would get obsessed with being "pretty". I will take ugly any day of the week if it is more fun.


I am wondering why none of the beta testers caught this WW issue? Heck, the game even has an AW option yet it missed this basic flaw???

I never criticized beta testers before, but I am afraid this one IS a beta tester problem. I'd be happy to be corrected.

On a side note, anyone knows how OCC plays in CIV4? Would it be able to achieve cultural victory which requires 3 cities? Please don't let me know that it has the same irony as AW.

AW with WW just plain sucks.
I have to agree with this. Instead of fighting you wind up playing an AW builder's game where you build jails and temples and theaters and anything else to keep the sheeple happy, while you garrison an insane amount of unit in your cities. It makes the game a lot longer and less fun IMHO.

AW on a duel map is more fun than a standard map.

As for going back to Civ3, it won't happen for me as I already threw the CD in the trash as the burnout was 100%. :) Not burned out yet, but getting a little warm.

I am not sure why the major concern about WW. It is not a killer as far as I can tell.
I am able to keep on fighting and it is 1260AD. Remember you lose citizens to unhappiness, but if have enough food it is not an issue.

I am not sure about +happiness as I am not counting what I have, but it seems that the AI is really struggling with improvements.

I do not know if the barbs were hurting them or not, but did the best I cold to get sentries out to stop them from respawing. I doubt they did.

It has been much like AWD (C3C) in that you have so many chances to get hurt and cannot always cover all bases. I have a lot of land now and had to cut way back at times on research, but used GP to get some techs and massive chops for wonders. Ind and Agg traits help for extra promotions and hammers.

It really freaks me out if someone releases a game with AW and no suitable government. This has to be patched. Beta testers did not play AW of course.

microbe, I think OCC plays with 3 city culture win, if that's correct it leaves you with conquest (in Civ4 with 1 city :lol: ), so UN and AC is possible, yucks

I think it depends on how bad AW gets. Does anyone know what the Max WW is? If you need only a few more happiness it is not a big deal - If you get double or more normal unhappiness, then it is a problem.

I am wondering why none of the beta testers caught this WW issue? Heck, the game even has an AW option yet it missed this basic flaw???

Runaway speculation in progress. I don't mean only microbe and ThERat, but the thread itself.

First, a question:

* Why did you guys launch an AW game as your first event? Didn't you expect to need to learn a bit more about Civ4 to be successful here?


---------------------------------------------------
I posted this in the general forum, in the "fun for warmongers" thread. I'm reposting it here. It's in reply to something Handy900 wrote.

8. What can you say about a game where AW is a custom selection but there is no government suitable for AW. I guess there were no beta testers who liked to play AW.

What an odd thing to say. :crazyeye:

Civ3 AW is what it was because the AI was completely incapable of playing under those conditions. That it happened to be fun was just a matter of luck.

In Civ4, the AI is no longer SLAVE-CHAINED to *your* choices. Just because you declare war does not force the AI to train units and throw them at you in an endless trickle (the way it works in Civ3).

Now the AI will actually ignore you, sometimes, and do its thing.

Like, "Oh yeah? You and what army? Let me know when you get serious. Maybe we'll bother with your sorry self when you're worthy of our attention." And on they go with their own interests.

When they do decide to invade, they'll actually try to measure what they need to be successful, and not move until they think they can gain something from it.


The new Always War is harder. The enemy is more thinking -- or at least, we put a lot more thought in to how it should behave. That doesn't mean it won't do stupid things, but at least now it tries to be smart. The Civ3 AI in an Always War situation was absolutely and unequivocally brain dead.

You will not get the exact same (old) flavor of gameplay out of Civ4 AW, but I was there with Arathorn for the very first AW game. If you dislike Civ4 AW, you can blame me straight away. It's my responsibility. Adding AW to Civ4 was my idea, and the upgrades to the AI to make it a smarter AW opponent were done at my urging -- within the limits of our resources.

If you don't think we did good work, that's your call. The Civ3 AI and its ready supply of beeline suicide units will always be there waiting for you if that is what you enjoy the most.


Civ3 AW is something that came together by accident. It flew in the face of how the AI was designed and which assumptions were ingrained in to its behaviors. Civ3 AW, to the extent that it was fun, was fun by the grace of God alone, because there was no design intent behind it.

Now in Civ4, we've tried to learn the lessons of Civ3, including Civ3 AW, and carry the game (and especially the AI) to the next level.

If after a fair outing of both, you should still prefer the Civ3 version, then you are (in effect) declaring that successful game design is more a matter of luck than intent or analysis or evolution. ... The jury is still out, and will be for some time yet, but I'm not a big believer in the power of luck. Destiny makes its own luck. Fortune favors the bold.
---------------------------------------------------


Now a few tips.

* War Weariness only builds when you fight outside your own borders.

* By the time you can fund a high number of cities, you'll be closing in on the ability to negate the War Anger.

* Don't overexpand. Expansion is something that you will have to manage through the course of the game. This includes city captures.

* The thing with Jails not covering the last 25% is a bug. I know the reasons why this bug slipped by (and it's my fault) but I can't discuss them. AW had more impact on Civ4 as a whole than you'll ever know, but this was one of my pet concepts and I had also several other (higher priority) responsibilities.

* Even assuming the Jails are fixed to work correctly, you will have to keep your WW within survivable ranges until you can negate it in the late game.

* You may want to prioritize building the Pyramids. (Early access to Police State).

* Get used to dealing with pillagers. Cutting off your resources and undercutting your economy is the smartest thing the AI can do to hurt you, in the strategic sense.


This isn't Civ3 AW, and I expect it may take some of you longer to adapt than others. Some of you may not like fighting less-stupid opposition, but I hope that most of you will embrace the challenge and give it a fair outing. If you turn up something that really is broken (like the Jails) I'll try to see that it gets fixed. I also hope that we see some mods -- but it would be a good idea to actually learn more about the defaults first, maybe? :)


- Sirian

Thanks Sirian for that answer about WW. But this means there isn't an option to go for no WW throughout the game.
Now, the rush will be for the pyramid to be able to get police state for a 50% reduction.

Fascism is a while into the game to be able to get rushmoore, to equip every city with a jail is costly.

* Why did you guys launch an AW game as your first event? Didn't you expect to need to learn a bit more about Civ4 to be successful here?
one can learn a lot about a game by playing a variant. Besides we all play SP games I guess.

War Weariness only builds when you fight outside your own borders.Well, if you want to succeed in an AW game you need to expand and thus, fight outside your territory. The real question is, how far does the WW build up be (e.g. how many unhappy faces can you get for it, is there a limit?)

There's no limit.

It is per-opponent, though, so you can reduce it if you eliminate a rival. It will also fade slowly over time if no new pressure is added. (Stop attacking if it starts to hurt. Turtle for a while.)

The AIs suffer a lot less WW than the player, but it's not zero, so they too will stop and turtle for a while if their WW climbs too high.


Well, if you want to succeed in an AW game you need to expand...

You are going to have to rethink some of these assumptions and guesses, or you are literally at risk of guessing your way out of a good time.


one can learn a lot about a game by playing a variant.

You will learn the wrong lessons from a variant if you don't yet know and understand the defaults.


I'm sure there are ways to improve Civ4 Always War, but at the moment, all of the feedback is heavily colored by clutter from Civ3 mechanics. If you want to read something that may give you some insight in to how my perspective on Civ4 differs from yours, and why, please Read This Report (http://sirian.warpcore.org/civ3/game1.html) and compare what I knew then about Civ3 to what you know now about it. Maybe this will help you (or someone else) to transition to Civ4 more smoothly.


- Sirian

You are going to have to rethink some of these assumptions and guesses, or you are literally at risk of guessing your way out of a good time.
- Sirian

For me, this is what makes Civ4AW interesting. Whether Civ3 or Civ4 is better in the end doesn't matter - Civ 4 will offer opportunities to play differently. A lot of the issues here is exactly what we need to learn how to best handle. This is the part that I like best. Unelss the game is seriously broken (which doesn't sound like it is the case) then I think we can have fun with it. That for one is why I wanted to dive right in rather than learning the game thouroughly first.

Whether Civ4 AW has the same lasting power as Civ 3 isn't as important to me at the moment though I can (and do - part of the 'analysis' that helps improve the game) make guesses. It'll be the learning that is fun. I am willing to wait to make a final call (whether to continue to play Civ4 AW) when I do become an expert and know the ins and outs.

Besides in this game we are doing decently :D

One other comment, I am very glad to hear WW is only accrued via offensive actions. WW is one thing I really disliked about Civ3 - the ways you got it seemed very broken - successfully defending for example.

I am glad to hear that AW was payed attention to during developement. You have my thanks for that Sirian :) It makes me feel more confident that it will have some lasting power.

Sirian,

Thanks for the response. However, I don't think most of your points addressed my compaint: that is there is one AW option (which means it IS designed) but no suitable civic combination (no WW).

You confirmed that there is no option to eliminate WW altogether. Maybe (managing) WW is not that bad, but it's still an annoying burden for people who play AW. It's not fun.

I still prefer a government that really fits the design of AW in CIV4. I don't know which one makes me feel better: knowing it was an oversight from beta testers or a misfeature that was designed by the developers.

Rest of what you said, although not really related to this compaint, is OK. I am all for a smarter AI or change of strategy.

FYI - this is where we stand.

Roster
1. Greebley - [gone 11-18 to 11-28]
2. Mark1031 - has it
3. Handy
4. ThERat -

5. Sir Bugsy - game not running, laptop in the trashbin
6. Obormot - waiting for the patch

What an odd thing to say.
Well, I don't think of you as an AW player. I see you as a "well rounded I can beat any variant at high level player". I'm sorry if I offended, that was not my intention. I miss C3 monarchy [no WW], but I'll have to get over it.

Sirian - I hope will find the time to read this (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=3336445&postcount=68) and this (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=3336733&postcount=77).

This isn't Civ3 AW, and I expect it may take some of you longer to adapt than others. Some of you may not like fighting less-stupid opposition, but I hope that most of you will embrace the challenge and give it a fair outing.

I will try to embrace the challenge, and will try to adapt. So far [through SP and SG play] AW in C4 seems less a combat game and more a builder's game compared to C3, so adaptation is