Hi folks. This is the first time I've come to History with an out and out modding thread. It's pretty interesting stuff history wise and I'm sure it will be useful for people's scenarios and mods.

I'm developing a Medieval scenario and have been discussing it with Plotinus. It's Mid-Dark Ages > Early Renaissance, Euro and Arab World centric. Rough dates would be c.1000AD - 1500AD or thereabouts, although dates are not so important for this scen. First ideas on the tech tree are being discussed and now's the time to get some expert help. We're good on all the magic, religion, civics, pseudo-science etc but military needs to be addressed. (Military will probably take a back seat in favour of lots of Pagan, Christian, Muslim, Magical, Psuedo-Scientific civilian type units).

REQUEST: Below are a bunch of links, some of which I've read through. This is with a view to organising the following techs, units and resources into some kind of realistic (and fun!) order. Lengthy discussions and articles welcomed (a juicey 'pedia will have to be written) but ultimately these need to be ordered, so please help with your suggested chronologies:

--------------------------------------
TECHS:
Chain Mail
Plate Mail
Stirrup
Horse Breeding
Chivalry
Professional Arms
Military / Religious Orders
Siege Weaponry
Gunpowder
Others?

UNITS:
Foot Knight
Mounted Knight
Longbowman
Crossbowman
Pikeman
Maceman
Other Medieval Infantry types
Artillery? (not so important as there won't be many of these units)
Cannon
Musket
Others?

STRATEGIC RESOURCES:
Horses
Thorough Breds
Smiths (Plate/Chainmail?)
Skilled Smiths (Plate/Chainmail?)
Saltpeter
Metals?
Other Smithing techniques as resources?

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LINKS:

Richard Jensen's Web Sources for Military History

http://tigger.uic.edu/~rjensen/military.html#C (http://tigger.uic.edu/%7Erjensen/military.html#C).

within which >

Main Page of a good collection: http://www.hyw.com/Books/History/Medi0000.htm

Sections:
Evolution of Medieval Warfare (http://www.hyw.com/Books/History/Evolutio.htm)
Recruiting, Organization, Tactics (http://www.hyw.com/Books/History/Recruiti.htm)
Pay for the Troops (http://www.hyw.com/Books/History/Pay_for_.htm)
Logistics (http://www.hyw.com/Books/History/Logistic.htm)
Just War (http://www.hyw.com/Books/History/War__jus.htm)
Ransom for Those Captured in Battle (http://www.hyw.com/Books/History/Some_Agi.htm)
Siege Warfare (http://www.hyw.com/Books/History/Sieges.htm)
Chivalry (http://www.hyw.com/Books/History/Chivalry.htm)

History of the Longbow
http://www.o-r-g.org/~azaroth/university/longbow.html (http://www.o-r-g.org/%7Eazaroth/university/longbow.html)

What made it particularly welcome, until in the later twelfth century the Iberian kingdoms caught up with certain more advanced trans-Pyrenean resources and techniques for warfare, was its three-fold contribution: ships for transport, for blockading and attacking fortified ports, and for engaging enemy fleets; heavy mailed cavalry trained in shock combat tactics, and, in contrast with the light-armed though more mobile horsemen typical of peninsular armies, capable of using massed weight, momentum, and relative invulnerability to smash enemy lines of battle; and improved engines of war and superior ballistic and mining expertise, of manifest utility in a struggle that so often centered about sieges of well-fortified towns and castles.

http://libro.uca.edu/bishko/spr1.htm--------------------------------------
:)

More Techs - Feudalism, Castle Building

Ooo nice! Feudalism is such a fundamental. We're probably going to omit it as a given. But it's worth mentioning for other people's purposes for sure!

Techs: alchemy would fit for your timespan.

Yeah but we know how to deal with that already :D

Units:

Onager? (artillery unit).
Battering Ram. Battering Rambuchan. :D

Tech Tree should include Chivalry. Are you planning to add more buildings? For example adding a `Tournament Arena` to increase the experience for the knights would be good. Units may include trebuchet, culverine, serpentine(all of them artillery).

If you have any questions on the Islamic side of the scenario (buildings, techs, units, Great Leaders) I would love to help you.

Techs: Milling >> improvement Windmill (either increased production as in Middle Ages Scen or increased food production (grinding grain, eh?)).

Resource: Hops (making people happy). :beer:

Don't accuse me of being inaccurate please. I'm just brainstorming here. :)

@ Jeriko: Those artillery contributions are great. I guess a few can get in. Got any pics/links/writeups?

'Tournament Arena' is a good one. We had 'Archery Contests' and 'Jousting' in as initial techs but these could become buildings. Know anything about the role of Squires btw?

There will be lots of new buildings but many of them magic, religion, pseudo-science based. As I mentioned, military will take a backseat to the magic and religion.

And yes, the Islamic civs feature heavily in this, naturally. So what light can you shed on their military development?

@ Trooper: Milling is a good one! And a Mill improvement is pencilled already in place of a granary. The Windmill it seems was first built in Europe around 1300. And thanks for the Ram gag. It was simply smashing!

And thanks for the Ram gag. It was simply smashing!

At your service Sir :hatsoff:

A smashing reply too.

Ealry Knight- Milite (spelling may need to be checked, but I belive its correct; latin for soldire, it was the first name applied to knights in France, Spain, Italy, and England circa the crusades)

Will you include Scandinavia?

Well, I am not exactly the doyen of miltary history around here, but anyway here is a few thoughts.
I wouldn't use muskets in a scenario ending in 1500. Arquebuse is more appropriate. Also culverin ad manum might be worth considering.
You should also include halberdier.
An interesting idea could be to include the moat as a city defence.
And finally, IMHO saltpeter should not be a strategic resource.

@ Trooper: Scandinavia is definitely in. It is a global scenario (although once you get east of Persia it gets more and more fantastical).

@ Xen: 'Milite' will be looked into. Thanks.

@ Luceafarul: Nice one on the gunpowder distinctions. Arquebuse and halbadier will most probably make their way in. When and where do you place their use, from Western Europe right through to Iran during this rough time frame? Moats! Brilliant!

Luceafarul: Nice one on the gunpowder distinctions. Arquebuse and halbadier will most probably make their way in. When and where do you place their use, from Western Europe right through to Iran during this rough time frame? Moats! Brilliant!
The arquebuse came into prominence in the 15th century and as far as I know it was mainly used in Europe (I might be wrong on this one).
The halberd was usual among the Swiss armies in the 14th century. Later they added pikes, better against knights.
And yes, moats are very cool.:mischief:
What about my saltpeter suggestion?

Thing about arty:
The medieval view of this was that all missile weapons go into the category of artillery. So, if you'd like to be true to at least the European view of the time, archers and crossbowmen count as "artillery".;)

And I'm dying to see what you'ce come up with by way of magic, religion, civics and "pseudo-science"!:D

Ever played "Defender of the Crown"?

Some wonderful things to hurl over city walls. Decaying cattle? Artillery department.

Scandinavia is definitely in. It is a global scenario (although once you get east of Persia it gets more and more fantastical).

OK! Another q then: will you segregate a Scandinavian research path as they did in Middle Ages Scen.?

One last wild idea before I need to occupy myself with something completely different: what about including Leonardo's tank?
It is available here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=90014

@ Luc: Thanks for those pointers. I'll sift through a bit more but that's good guidance. As for saltpeter, well I don't know. The thing is there are some big advanced Islamic civs and they are encroaching on Europe. They were using this stuff early. Gunpowder came into use at the end of the scenario period and I've read records of early Ottoman policies regarding the maintenance of such saltpeter resources (again in the Mughals 'pedia).

@ Verbose: Nice distinction on the arty but a bit too nice (subtle) I think. There will be very few clues given about the stuff you enquire after. :cool:

@ Trooper: Funnily enough I keep getting all this medieval stuff put in my lap without asking for it or expecting it. For example, I went to an amazing exhibition with a friend in Cambridge, quite by chance. What was it? Loads of 700-800 years old English, Venetian and Flemish illuminated Biblical manuscripts. From exactly the period in question. And here's one you'll love - a friend came round to watch a movie. Guess what it was? Monty Python and the Holy Grail!!! :D

One last wild idea before I need to occupy myself with something completely different: what about including Leonardo's tank?
It is available here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=90014You were beaten to this by about two weeks Luc :p That's been down for ages. :p:p

OK! Another q then: will you segregate a Scandinavian research path as they did in Middle Ages Scen.?Trying to work on one tech tree for about 5 culture groups. It's possible and easier and clearer. Each civ and culture should get their own particular units/wonder/resources etc from each tech. This means you have a comparative approach in the pedia and tech tree between civs and their histories. It should be doable but if you've got some clever suggestions let me know.

What about seafaring? Will vikings get viking longships, N EUrope get saling ships and mediterraneans get large triremes?

Well list the relevant naval units then! There need to be quite a few - more inclined to the exploration and trade than naval warfare though.

This thread was designed to get some historical data down for research material btw. Not for me to start explaining the scenario. :lol:

Trying to work on one tech tree for about 5 culture groups. It's possible and easier and clearer. Each civ and culture should get their own particular units/wonder/resources etc from each tech. This means you have a comparative approach in the pedia and tech tree between civs and their histories. It should be doable but if you've got some clever suggestions let me know.

Okay - I'll skim through some books on medieval Scandinavia for you.

Thanks :love:


(I need some myths also)

Well list the relevant naval units then! There need to be quite a few - more inclined to the exploration and trade than naval warfare though.

This thread was designed to get some historical data down for research material btw. Not for me to start explaining the scenario. :lol:

Just askin' was all...! ;)

To my knowledge, there were two main viking longships:

Snekke: Small (~20m) ships used for coastal defense in fjords.
Dragon-ships: Larger (~30m) intimidating ships, used for raids and major battles.

I don't know too much about galleys, but I think adding those byzantine fire-ships (Dromons?) would be neat. Maybe a stardard trireme could be upgraded to a Dromon after you discover petroleum chemistry...?

Anybody know much about other northern european ships in that time period?

Just askin' was all...! ;)

To my knowledge, there were two main viking longships:

Snekke: Small (~20m) ships used for coastal defense in fjords.
Dragon-ships: Larger (~30m) intimidating ships, used for raids and major battles.

I don't know too much about galleys, but I think adding those byzantine fire-ships (Dromons?) would be neat. Maybe a stardard trireme could be upgraded to a Dromon after you discover petroleum chemistry...?

Anybody know much about other northern european ships in that time period?
Wouldn't say I do, but I'd like too include the Knarr. It was a sturdy, square rigged sailing ship used for trade.
Unlike the sleek longships these things were pretty bulky and high.

http://www.cdli.ca/CITE/v_knarr.htm

Thanks :love:


(I need some myths also)

Need more info: are you going to treat Norway, Sweden and Denmark as distinct nations (forget about unions) throughout the scenario. IOW you start up the scenario ca 1000 AD based on what the political situation was back then.

Nice little link there Verbose, thanks. And that's the kind of info needed Che, perfect. :goodjob:

@ Trooper: Atm I have those three you mention as separate civs.

No one got any suggestions on a way of ordering those techs?

@ Trooper: Atm I have those three you mention as separate civs.

Perfect. Easier to handle that way.

Wouldn't say I do, but I'd like too include the Knarr. It was a sturdy, square rigged sailing ship used for trade.
Unlike the sleek longships these things were pretty bulky and high.

http://www.cdli.ca/CITE/v_knarr.htm

Nice!

A few other ships that may be worthy of having units:

Carrack: 3-4 mast ships, first big ocean going ships of europe, mostly used for explorig and trading. Didn't come along until the 15th century though, so maybe a late unit in the game, once civs discover navigation?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Eertvelt%2C_Santa_Maria.jpg

Maybe before that, N EUropeans could use either...

Hulks: the two-masted, wide keeled banana boats....

http://metamedia.stanford.edu/imagebin/hulk.jpg

or Cogs: single masted variations of Celtic flatboats. Neither seemed too steady for open waters and (as far as I can tell) were used mostly for trading.

http://metamedia.stanford.edu/imagebin/709018.jpg

This is just the result of my few minutes of web-research, please correct me on anything if I'm wrong...

@ Luc: Thanks for those pointers. I'll sift through a bit more but that's good guidance. As for saltpeter, well I don't know. The thing is there are some big advanced Islamic civs and they are encroaching on Europe. They were using this stuff early. Gunpowder came into use at the end of the scenario period and I've read records of early Ottoman policies regarding the maintenance of such saltpeter resources (again in the Mughals 'pedia).
No you misunderstood me. Of course you should have gunpowder units. My point is only that it should be enough to have the gunpowder- tech to build those units, since saltpeter can be made by organic material like manure.
Actually I always found it silly in this game that you could build stone- and bronze-units without any resources, while you needed to hook up to saltpeter.
And about the tank, I am so often ahead of my time that I can live with being beaten at this occasion.:lol:

Another quick question: did you have any luxury resources picked out? Off the top of my head I would say spices, pelts, tea, gold, and maybe some other specific types of gems. Any I missed?

@ Luc: I see what you mean now and you've got a very good point. I'm gonna go for the gunpowder not saltpeter.

@ Che: That ship info is great. What Arab and Islamic stuff do you know of in this period? Don't get me started on the luxuries :rolleyes:

@ Che: That ship info is great. What Arab and Islamic stuff do you know of in this period?

None! :( I'll poke around the internet a bit more when I have some time.

I thought you'd have the luxuries covered....! :)

What I mean is that I have a surplus of ideas for the luxuries.

City Improvement for Norway: Stave Church (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stave_church). Prebuilt in Norwegian cities (not historically correct) or tech-dependent? Your call. Happy/content faces, culture? Your call. :)

Nice!!! Gonna be lots of churches and mosques. Thanks!

But still there is the simple question of the military techs from the OP.

For Muslim troops you might want to include the Mamelukes.

Here are some links about them:http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?historyid=ac85

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mamluks

Units:
Halberdier's
Landsknechts (spelling?)
Highlanders (maybe base it on the Woad Raiders in AOE 2)
Esquires (maybe weaker knights or swordsmen)
Pole Ax man (similar to a halberdier)
Warhammer man
Arquebusier (early musketman or musketeer)
Mounted Crossbowman (but Mounted Archer is just as good)
Janissary
Bashi Bazouk
Iayalars
Brother Seargents
Men-At-Arms
Naphtha Throwers (throwing "grenades" of Greek Fire)
Scorpion (it would be a little late for this, considering the Romans used them)
Basilisk (giant cannons used by the Ottomans during the Sieges of Rhodes and Constantinople)
Boyars
Turcoman Horsemen

Resources:
Spices (only in the Middle East, need to trade, make them very valuable)
Maybe have European and Arabian Horses.

Techs:
Fletching
Steel working
Leather Tanning
Heraldry
Greek Fire (it was used by the Knights Hospitaller of St. John of Jerusalem during the Siege of Rhodes in the late 15th century)
Jihad or Crusade maybe under the category of Zealotry


This is all I can think of at the moment Ram.

@ Evil Tyrant: Well I've had Mamluks in another scenario, which appears in two different sigs on this page ;). They were always going to be in!

@ Tank Guy: These sound good. Got any links or just some brief info on these?:

Landsknechts (?)
Esquires
Bashi Bazouk
Iayalars
Naphtha Throwers
Boyars

What context would you put steel working in? I really need some help with the evolution of different armour and metal types.

I have a class in about 10 minutes, I'll look real quick, but I will be back on in about an hour.

I can give brief info off the top of my head about a few of them:

Landsknecht were German longswordmen that were dispersed inside a pikeman formation, their purpose was to cut the points off of the enemy pikes.

Naphtha Throwers were basically guys with terra cotta pots of Greek fire that they lit and threw at the enemy (they had a slight problem, they tended to blow up when lit).

Boyars are were Russian Cavalry Archers, they tended to be members of the upper class.


More info and links after class.

OK cool. That's great. Thanks. I can google the other stuff.

Who's the CFC guru on medieval stuff again, calgacus? Haven't seen him for a long time now.

Naphtha Throwers were basically guys with terra cotta pots of Greek fire that they lit and threw at the enemy (they had a slight problem, they tended to blow up when lit).
I seem to remember these guys were sometimes referred to as "Naphtalites", specialists in incendiary warfare, used by both late Romans/Byzantines and Persians.

So, I also have the impression they were around a bit earlier than in the time-frame given?

It might not matter much though, as not just the Byzantines but the Muslims as well used Greek fire during the crusades. (There's an account of being at the receiving end of it by Jean de Joinville in his "Life of St. Louis".)

I seem to remember these guys were sometimes referred to as "Naphtalites", specialists in incendiary warfare, used by both late Romans/Byzantines and Persians.

So, I also have the impression they were around a bit earlier than in the time-frame given?

It might not matter much though, as not just the Byzantines but the Muslims as well used Greek fire during the crusades. (There's an account of being at the receiving end of it by Jean de Joinville in his "Life of St. Louis".)

I wasn't quite sure on the name, however I just read a book on the Siege of Rhodes, and they were on the walls throwing that stuff at the Ottomans. It was used well into the Middle Ages. Why abandon something that works.

Ram: For background information of sorts about many things Crusader, who would know them better? Click the link to find out.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/

Also, if you've seen the movie King Arthur, near the end before the battle when the Arthur is alone on the hill and his knights ride up beside him in their Traditional armor, that's kind of what Boyars look like. But, I do also remember that they were not only cavalry archers, when they ran out of arrows, they would put away their bows and charge with swords like any other knight. They were medium cavalry of sorts when in hand to hand combat.

I found a little info on the Bashi Bazouks. They were the most irregular of Turkish Infantry, they were untrained mercenaries that came from Eastern Europe and parts of Russia, and pretty much their main goal was plunder. Because they were so undisciplined, the Ottomans commonly put the Bazouks as their first line of battle followed by more disciplined soldiers with whips, maces and flails to stop them from retreating.

Here's a pic of a Bazouk:

http://www.artunframed.com/images/new_art3/Bashi-Bazouk_and_his_Dog.jpg

Rambuchan, you might perhaps consider an engineer unit/tech/whatever's most appropriate to simulate an increased reliance on engineers in warfare in the 13th c.?

These would build not just the siege engines but design structures for both offense and defense and execute some pretty considerable landscaping stuff — again I refer to Jean de Joinville, who positively hated king Louis IX's engineers in the 1250's crusade:
To the nobleman Joinville these competent commoners had no business in a war. And this was despite the fact that in the middle of the Nile's flood season, the only reason the French army made progress, was due to Master Roger and his collegues, who were damming the Nile in front of the army and diverting it behind it, rinse and repeat. No small scale stuff at all.

And I recomend Joinville's book highly! It's the freshest piece of medieval prose I've ever read. Highly visual in a way most accounts from that time is not. Joinville was a natural at Hemingway's "show'em, don't tell'em".
:goodjob:

How about this for a naval tech tree?


Trireme: The most basic of ships, man-powered, stays close to shore.

Snekke: Warship of moderate capabilities, stays near shore

Dragon-boat: Large warship, can navigate sea tiles

Knarr: trading boat that can also navigate the sea

Cog: small cargo ship, few defenses

Hulk: larger cargo ship, some defense

Dromon: modified trireme with good offensive capabilities

Carracks: large, ocean-going trade ships, good defenses.

I pulled this all out of my bum, so please feel free to correct me on any points.

Maybe have a wonder called "The Courage of D'Aubusson", whereby all units gain one rank in veterancy. Yes, I have a great interest in the Battle of Rhodes. This Hospitaller Grand Master, took an arrow to the thigh, was wounded four times while defending a walkway one of Rhodes' walls, and whilst defended it got stabbed right through the breast plate by a Ottoman Janissary (which punctured a lung). But he did not die of these wounds and led his force of about 2,400 Christians to victory over about 70,000 Ottomans. He then became a Cardinal in the Catholic Church, earned the nickname "Shield of the Church", and was later appointed to create a league whose sole purpose was to retake Constantinople (which obviously he didn't achieve).

This battle of Rhodes took place 1479-1481. D'Aubusson was born in 1423 and he died in 1503.

Here is a link, all I found in my short skimming of the site was Greco-Roman stuff but there might be useful info here:
http://198.144.2.125/Siege/Blueprints.htm

And for a site about the Hospitallers (hard on the eyes after awhile, just an FYI :crazyeye: )
http://www.chivalricorders.org/orders/smom/rhodes.htm

Up close look at some armor:
http://198.144.2.125/Armour/SCA%20ARMOUR.HTM

Also the History Channel is having a series about the Crusade if you want to get extremely in depth.


Ram, sorry if I am inciting another coronary for you by making you read all of this :p .

I'm also making a medieval scenario.

Some of the wonders I came up with

The Venetian Arsenal
la Reconquista
Walls of Constantinople

And some advances

The Lateen Sail
Firearms
The Matchlock
Alchemy

And I also made the Siphai a european knight armed with early wheel-lock pistols known as "pistoleer"

I got alot more ideas. Especially advances and units including some of Aaglo's sea units.

Galleass
La Reale
Cog (Kogge)

I believe that Cogs, at least, came fairly late. They were flat-bottomed ships designed for cargo, since they could hold far more than the Viking-style ships still used up to that time. They were invented by merchants of the Hanseatic League, though I couldn't tell you precisely when. So I'm not sure precisely what their purpose would be in the scenario - perhaps as transport ships?

It's such a shame you can't have trade routes like in the original Civ...

I believe that Cogs, at least, came fairly late. They were flat-bottomed ships designed for cargo, since they could hold far more than the Viking-style ships still used up to that time. They were invented by merchants of the Hanseatic League, though I couldn't tell you precisely when. So I'm not sure precisely what their purpose would be in the scenario - perhaps as transport ships?

It's such a shame you can't have trade routes like in the original Civ...

I use it as a transport/warship to fill the gap between longboats, galleys and Caravels ect.

It seems to work on my advances/time scale. But they don't last long until they upgrade to carracks or which ever that civ can build.

This is all good info guys. Thanks. I'll get back to the particular suggestions later. For now here's a nice account on a squire or un écuyer:It was custom for nobles to send their sons to the court of the liege lord, often an uncle or a great lord, at seven years old to serve seven years as a page. During this time he was cared for by the lord's household and instructed in religion, courtesy, cleanliness and servitude. He was taught manners and how to ride a horse. At fourteen years of age he became a squire, a personal attendant to one of the knights. It was the knight's duty to train him in horsemanship, hunting, hawking, sports and the arts of war. During this time he was taught how to handle weapons and how to look after his knight's armor and horses. He even accompanied his knight into battle, assisting him get into and out of his armor, and sometimes pulling him from the field if he was hurt or unhorsed. He also learned how to shoot a bow, hunt, and carve meat. Successful squires were knighted at about 21 years of age.

The word Squire comes from the French word écuyer, which meant "shield–bearer." Squires trained constantly to keep fit and to gain skill. The practiced with each other, and their knights. They practiced by throwing stones, throwing javelins, wrestling, fighting with quarterstaffs, fighting with sword and bucklers, and aerobatics. They also practiced against a pel, or wooden post. Usually with a heavier weapon than they would use in actual battle. To practice jousting they used a quintain, a pel with a cross piece on top that would spin around to hit them back. In the 13th century it was so expensive to become a knight that many remained squires. Later "squire" came to mean a gentleman who owned land. A squire finally made into a knight at a dubbing ceremony.

This was Training with a Quintainoriginally done with a blow by the hand to the neck, by the squire's knight or even the king. Later this blow was replaced by a tap on the shoulder with a sword. He would be given gifts, such as a sword and spurs and a celebration might follow.

Usually the squire would be knighted in a special ceremony. Robed in plain garments he would guard his arms all night before the altar of the church. The following morning after mass and communion, he received the accolade of knighthood, a blow on the shoulder with the flat of a sword, from either his liege lord or a bishop.

More good medieval lifestyle info:

http://www.getmedievalonline.com/knights.html

I believe that Cogs, at least, came fairly late. They were flat-bottomed ships designed for cargo, since they could hold far more than the Viking-style ships still used up to that time. They were invented by merchants of the Hanseatic League, though I couldn't tell you precisely when. So I'm not sure precisely what their purpose would be in the scenario - perhaps as transport ships?
I think Bugfatty got the military use of the cog.:goodjob:

What it does is give a height advantage over the earlier long-ships. They were used as missile platforms, and the height meant that in a sense they could be used as floating castles in defence against boarding. That's also typical of medieval military thinking - build high and try to defend as efficiently as possible. And since Baltic ships had no rams, these things could dominate.
Which of course meant that ships suddenly tended to built increasingly higher to outdo the other guys. The cog is somewhere at the beginning of the tendency of late medieval ships to have some very high superstructures.

Or at least that's one version of the development of medieval naval warfare I've heard. Generally how fighting at sea in this period actually worked seems a bit murky.:crazyeye:

Does anybody know anything about Fatimid boats? They ruled the Med. for centuries, yet I can't seem to find anything about the style of boats they used to use.

I pulled this all out of my bum, so please feel free to correct me on any points.

Nitpick really and no big deal for me: Chemistry (as a pure science) was poorly developed during the Middle Ages. I would prefer alchemy (as it was too much guesswork and too little scientific method).

That's probably a good call: 'chemistry' does seema little generous... ;)

thanks bud.

Magic and spells were banned by Qur`an. So magic should be limited in the Muslim World. However, Turks in Anatolia used some spells. They were mainly love and sexual spells but there were also spells like `Eye Binding`(not blinding) and spells made with the help of Genies. A helpful magical building can be `Turbe`. Still people are expecting strange things to happen with the help of `Turbe`s.

If you are wondering about Islamic wonders, you can use the `Mesnevi`. Mevlana Celaleddin-i Rumi, a philosopher wrote this book about the unity and happiness of all mankind. This can give some bonusses regarding the conquered cultures and nations.(Make them happy or assimilate them more easily perhaps)

As for the military part of the muslim world, Muslim States relied heavily on cavalry. They are many different types of cavalry for different purposes.
A strange aspect is that Ottomans never used pikeman. So the pikeman and halberdier units should be made unavalible for the Muslim factions.

BTW, are you planning this scenario for Civ IV?

@ Verbose: Regarding the engineers, that's good to know. However, the scenario will be much more 'civilian' and religious in its scope, so going into the military engineers with specialised artillery may be too much detail for the scenario but it's a good point to bring up. Early mechanics was at work with siege developments and, towards the end of the period, this certainly seems to have developed at what they probably perceived to be a break neck pace! :lol: And Joinville's book sounds like a treat. I can look it up but there's a stack of other stuff to work through already. You know how it is.

@ Che: That naval tech tree is certainly useful, thanks. And the brief discussion which followed it was too. Naval exploration will be important and I'll certainly be drawing on some of your suggestions. Unfortunately, I don't know a great deal about pre-gun mounted shipping in Europe, aside from what Verbose posted already about fortified towers on deck. So that's good stuff to read and you must have a big bum if you pulled that out of it! :eek:

@ Tank Guy: That's a great suggestion for a Wonder. Sadly I already have a deluge of wonder ideas, mostly revolving around significant books, people, paintings, maps and ideas of the time. There may be a few military ones and the overall sentiment behind your suggestion would fit the 'character profile' of certain civs in the game. But even if I don't use it, good to see it up there for others to.

@ Bugfatty: I'd be happy to share some ideas with you about all of this. I'm sure we can spill some ideas for techs, wonders, improvements and general research. Feel free to PM me anytime. Your wonder suggestions are very good ones. The Walls of Constantinople being a nice one I hadn 't considered. As already mentioned, military will feature, but not too heavily, so your tech suggestions will probably be passed over but thanks anyway. I agree with Verbose that you're using the cogs in an appropriate fashion btw.

@ Plot: Your post has got me considering some naval (and possibly amphibious) uniqueness for Venice and Kingdom of Naples. And thanks for all your other feedback, all very useful. Don't stop with it! A new tech tree will hit you some time.

@ Jeriko: Good info!!! I'm having some trouble creating an Islamic balance to all of Europe's planned religious, pagan and pseudo-science units. improvements etc. I need to hear more about magic, psuedo-science and notions of heresy in these medieval Islamic states/sultanates. Your improvement suggestion is great. I've read somemore on the Turbe and it's in! Rumi was pencilled in for a wonder already btw. Loads of medieval Muslim poets, philosophers, astronomers, cartographers etc etc already in. But keep this info about the Islamic world around 1300-1500 coming in, it's just what's needed.

Thanks again to all of you.

Seems I missed out some points.As for the military part of the muslim world, Muslim States relied heavily on cavalry. They are many different types of cavalry for different purposes.Yes I'm aware of this. I intend to implement this with two types of horse resource, enabling two classes (eg. Knight > Cavalry) and two qualities of cavalry (eg. European horses and Arabian horses) within those classes.
A strange aspect is that Ottomans never used pikeman. So the pikeman and halberdier units should be made unavalible for the Muslim factions. So what did they use instead?
BTW, are you planning this scenario for Civ IV?No, but the more I do on it the more I see it would be well served by all the extra features in Civ4. However, there have been many great scenarios made on old versions of civ and there have also been many which have been translated from an old version to Civ3's editor. I see no reason to turn away from Civ3's editing just yet. I won't be jumping to get a Civ4 disk and I doubt the majority will in a hurry at least. Long live Civ3!

I see no reason to turn away from Civ3's editing just yet. I won't be jumping to get a Civ4 disk and I doubt the majority will in a hurry at least. Long live Civ3!

I am relieved to hear that.

I probably missed it but you will be using UUs don't you? All civs playable?

And now I want to add something from Rumi to give an idea of the prevalence of alchemy and its spiritual analogies in both the Christian and Muslim medieval world. This very much hits at the heart of what this scenario will be concerned with ~ medieval spirituality.


Sheik Bedr-Ed-Din of Tabriz, the architect of the celebrated tomb in that city, was unique in his era in his skill in alchemy and in many different occult sciences. All day he would dutifully attend the companions in their resolutions; all night he would occupy himself in alchemical operations, through which he was able to procure pieces of silver and gold for his friends.

One day Rumi entered into his lonely laboratory and saw him plunged in work. The Sheikh was so terrified at the Master's sudden appearance that he was unable to move. Rumi took the anvil Bedr-Ed-Din had been using into his own hands and gave it back to him; the sheikh saw that it had changed into gold and shone with a divine light.

Rumi then said: "If you must make gold, make this kind of gold; it is a proces you won't need any apparatus or weaver's combs or anvils for. If you go on giving your whole strength to the work you are pursuing now, then when death comes, all you will leave behind is a reputation of a master forger; when your gold reverts to brass, all the repentance in the world will be of no use. So, devote all your energies so that the brass of your own existence can become gold, and your gold can become pearls; what these pearls are cannot be described in any language."

Rumi then recited: "Jesus will change your brass into gold, and if there is already gold in you, Jesus will make pearls from it. And if there are pearls within you, Jesus will make them even more beautiful than the Moon or Jupiter."

At once Bedr-Ed-Din tore his clothes and gave up his art.
And a simplified version of the same sentiments >
Enter the Furnace

Our Master spoke one day to a nobleman about mystical truth. He said, "In the state you have attained, you have become gold; now you must transform even more of yourself into gold; you have to come to a time when you will enter the furnace, begin to boil, and offer yourself up for hammering on the anvil of mortification by the blows of the Coiner, so you can become a ring worthy of Solomon or an earring that could adorn an Emperor.Notice: - The close parallels with Christian notions of judgement at the point of death, alchemical-spiritual analogies testifying to much the same as Christian notions of salvation and self realisation, and also the idea of divine kingship and divine emperors alluded to in the last sentence.

I am relieved to hear that.

I probably missed it but you will be using UUs don't you? All civs playable?I'm a big fan of making all or as many civs in the scenario playable. Gotta see it from all angles. I won't be turning away from that with this one if I can help it. Ditto with UUs. This one is looking like each civ will get at least 2 UUs - a spiritual and military.

... So that's good stuff to read and you must have a big bum if you pulled that out of it! :eek:

Oh it comes in handy! There was this one time in an airport when...well, that's a little off topic ;)

I was also wondering if you had any wood strategic resources in mind, for ship building in particular. I know at the time masts had to be one solid lodgepole, so maybe temperate forests could be something of a limiting factor when building ships...

I'm planning on using 'charts' as a resource for the different ships, owing to an emphasis on exploration.

European armies during the middle ages usually had alot of peasants in arms, or levies. They usually were armed with typical medieval shield, spear and a cheap sword as side arm. Swordsmen were rather rarely used in medieval armies, I think.

European medieval armies were not the best in the world. As I said, the armies usually consisted of large bunch of levies with poor equipment and training. The few professional troops in the medieval army were usually trained to fight as induviduals, in induvidual fighting methods, not in a group based combat. Knights were not usually numerous and the medieval army often had alot of other types of cavalry. Knights were often over-impentous in the battlefield due to their superior social status.

That's the main weaknesses of the medieval European army, which I've heard.

:)

(first post from my new computer, yay!)

Thanks and grats on the new comp. :)

I know you already have tons of wonders, but here are a few more:

The Forges of Damascus
INFO
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damascus_steel
Maybe have it work like the Iron Works for the Industrial Age.
Can't find a pic.

The Tannery of Fez (Morocco)
Site for pic of Wonder Splash:
http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/jimberryman/morocco_fes_leather_tannery_0096_0032.htm
OR
http://www.bsp.org.uk/morocco/pages/tannery.html
INFO
http://muller.lbl.gov/pages/Morocco%20pages/tannery%20at%20Fez.html

Ooooo! Those are great!!

Ooooo! Those are great!!

As Ram is thinking to himself "what Tank_Guy? Are you deaf(or blind in this case) or are you just trying to be a pain in the a$$, I told you I already have a lot of ideas for wonders."

BTW here are some files I collected for some reason, they MAY be helpful:

I take no responsibility whatsoever for any creation, design or otherwise creation of any of the units listed below.

By: Kinboat

Norman Knight: First Crusade'ish:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=44092

Crusader:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=37402

Robin Hood:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=47735

Cataphract:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=56408

Ranger: maybe as barbarians or something.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=89198

Landsknecht
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=2307049

Janissary: though I was under the impression their shirts were red.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=2830645

-----------
By BeBro

Ottoman Knight: this looks like the Turcoman horse I talked about earlier.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=95492

Hospitaller Knight: Remember Rhodes!!
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=69657

Early Gunpowder Knight: maybe towards the end of the scenario.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=86066

Teutonic Knight
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=66277

Knight Pack
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=74636

Knight Pack II: maybe have the Knight in the very middle be Arab.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=98533

-----------
By embryodead (below)

Arabian Dhow: like he says in the description when Europe gets caravels, let Arabia get this
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?threadid=41777

English Pikemen
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?threadid=54104

English Crossbowman
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?threadid=55865

Greek Archer: I know this is very late for a toxtote but maybe as an poorly equiped barbarian.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?threadid=69594

Mozarab Infantry
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?threadid=78469

Yes but the majority of them are religious or literary in nature. So these are good commercial and military wonder options. Nice!!!

Units cont.:

I take no responsibility whatsoever for any creation, design or otherwise creation of any of the units listed below.

By aaglo:

Golden Hind and English War Galleon
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=79997

Medievil Galleys
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=79551

Galleass
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=75951

Heavy Galleass
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=76036

Corsairs
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=77134

Egyptian Galleass
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=64873

Cog
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=80574

Pirate Frigate
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=110905

Siege Cannon
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=81332

Medievil Bombard
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=83441

Roman/Hellenistic Era Siege Tower: I think this could work for this scenario.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=74993

--------
By MarineCorps:

Resized AoK Tarkan and Cataphract
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=79259

--------
By Dease:

Arqubusier
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=93598

African Pikeman
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=96742

Unit Pack: Pikemen
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=2148424#post2148424

Units cont.

I take no responsibility whatsoever for any creation, design or otherwise creation of any of the units listed below.

---------
By jobiwan7

Ancient Multi-Units: some good units here, worth taking a look at especially the Sassanid Cataphract.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=3220220#post3220220

---------
By Dom Pedro II

Hun: I know its a little late for this guy, but he also looks like the Turcoman Horseman.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=1650124&postcount=2

Mali or Songhai Knight: Arab heavy cavalry?
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=2001246&postcount=2

Arab Infantry
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=93767

Arab Cavalry Pack
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=61630

---------
By CivArmy

A link to his unit site:
http://www.geocities.com/civ_army_1994/unidades-outros.htm

---------
By CamJH

Italian Foot Knight
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=106958

Legion of the Wall: maybe a fixed unit defending Constantinople.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=107395

Kandori
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=109218

Domani
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=109512

Panarch's Legion
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=109799

King's Life Guard: maybe Italian origin knight
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=112797

Medieval Indian (though Arab looking) Swordsman
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=119624


This is all I can get today. If you want to continue the search on your own, I am just starting utahjazz7's units on the second page of the "Unit Artists Library" thread.

Well, rambuchan here is some further info on the wonders I mentioned.
--------------

Venetian Arsenal (or a better name would be the Arsenal Nuovo) was a massive shipyard in Venice build around 1100 and used until the 1600s. At its peak, it could build one ship a day using production line-like techniques, parts and tools.

It was also used to develop other types of weapons like early cannons.

For game use I made it a coastal wonder that basically that gives the same production as a factory in the regular game.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venetian_Arsenal
--------------
The La Requonquista, as you probably already know, was "the reconquest" of Iberia by Castile and Aragon before joining kingdoms to create Spain but is also used as a general term for recapturing lands from infidels ect.

Building it could act as an art of war and put barracks in all the cities maybe or produce a special unit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconquista
--------------
The Walls of Constantinople were probably the best defensive walls ever made for a city. They were only breeched twice in 1000 years of existence. Once by crusaders in 1204 and again by the Ottomans in 1453.

I use it to replace the great wall and its rendered obsolete with the invention of gunpowder or which ever tech you use to allow cannons.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walls_of_Constantinople
--------------

The Transatlantic Voyage would be a good exploration wonder. It could act as a Magellan’s Voyage and increase the movement points of your ships.

--------------
Last but not least, a Trade Route to the Orient could be a small wonder that creates some happy citizens due to the luxuries brought in from the Orient.

Oh, there is one thing that shouldn't be forgotten. The Muslim world was significantly richer, stable and advanced than the medieval Europe.

@ Tankguy: Wow! That is some great stuff. Thanks a lot for the effort, very useful indeed. Most of the units posted I have already bookmarked and shuffled into a rough culture groupings and class layout. But those pikemen and ships were much needed. I had totally missed the Arqubusier and Landsknecht. They are priceless!

@ Bugfatty: Excellent suggestion with the Venetian Arsenal. I am considering having this as auto-producing some amphibious units, to connect with the naval origin. There will be other ship producing improvements anyway. I want to consider these amphibs as I've been reading about crossbowmen on ships used heavily by the Italian states. This would provide good unit distinction and is grounded in quite a notable military tradition. Is this familiar to anyone?

Also, Reconquista was always going to be in and I've picked up Walls of Constantpl from earlier in the thread.

Here is some information I've been sifting through about Islamic hospitals of the time:



The hospital was one of the great achievements of medieval Islamic society. The relation of the design and development of Islamic hospitals to the earlier and contemporaneous poor and sick relief facilities offered by some Christian monasteries has not been fully delineated. Clearly, however, the medieval Islamic hospital was a more elaborate institution with a wider range of functions.

In Islam there was generally a moral imperative to treat all the ill regardless of their financial status. The hospitals were largely secular institutions, many of them open to all, male and female, civilian and military, adult and child, rich and poor, Muslims and non-Muslims. They tended to be large, urban structures.

The Islamic hospital served several purposes: a center of medical treatment, a convalescent home for those recovering from illness or accidents, an insane asylum, and a retirement home giving basic maintenance needs for the aged and infirm who lacked a family to care for them. It is unlikely that any truly wealthy person would have gone to a hospital for any purpose, unless they were taken ill while traveling far from home. Except under unusual circumstances, all the medical needs of the wealthy and powerful would have been administered in the home or through outpatient clinics dispensing drugs. Though Jewish and Christian doctors working in hospitals were not uncommon, we do not know what proportion of the patients would have been non-Muslim.

An Islamic hospital was called a bimaristan, often contracted to maristan, from the Persian word bimar, `ill person', and stan, `place.' Some accounts associate the name of the early Umayyad caliph al-Walid I, who ruled from 705 to 715 (86-96 H), with the founding of a hospice, possibly a leprosarium, in Damascus. Other versions, however, suggest that he only arranged for guides to be supplied to the blind, servants to the crippled, and monetary assistance to lepers.

The earliest documented hospital established by an Islamic ruler was built in the 9th century in Baghdad probably by the vizier to the caliph Harun al-Rashid. Few details are known of this foundation. There is no evidence to associate the construction of the earliest hospital with any of the Christian physicians from Gondeshapur in southwest Iran, but the prominence of the Bakhtishu` family as court physicians would suggest that they also played an important role in the function of the first hospital in Baghdad.

In little more than a hundred years, 5 additional bimaristans had been built in Baghdad. According to some accounts, directions were given by a vizier in the early 10th century to provide medical care to prisons on a daily basis and visits by doctors with a traveling dispensary to villages in lower Iraq. The most important of the Baghdad hospitals was that established in 982 (372 H) by the ruler `Adud al-Dawlah. When it was founded it had 25 doctors, including oculists, surgeons, and bonesetters. In 1184 (580 H) a traveller described it as being like an enormous palace in size.

In Egypt, the first hospital was built in the southwestern quarter of present-day Cairo in 872 (259 H) by Ahmad ibn Tulun, the `Abbasid governor of Egypt. It is the earliest for which there is clear evidence that care for the insane was provided. By the end of the century, two hospitals were also said to have been built in Old Cairo (Fustat), though the evidence on this point is questionable. In the 12th century, Saladin founded the Nasiri hospital in Cairo, but it was surpassed in size and importance by the Mansuri, completed in 1284 (638 H) after eleven months of construction. The Mansuri hospital remained the primary medical center in Cairo through the 15th century. The Nuri hospital in Damascus was a major one from the time of its foundation in the middle of the 12th century well into the 15th century, by which time the city contained 5 additional hospitals.

Besides those in Baghdad, Damascus, and Cairo, hospitals were built throughout Islamic lands. In al-Qayrawan, the Arab capital of Tunisia, a hospital was built in the 9th century, and early ones were established at Mecca and Medina. Iran had several, and the one at Rayy was headed by al-Razi prior to his moving to Baghdad. Ottoman hospitals flourished in Turkey in the 13th century, and there were hospitals in the Indian provinces. Hospitals were comparatively late in being established in Islamic Spain, the earliest possibly being built in 1397 (800 H) in Granada.

Of the great Syro-Egyptian hospitals of the 12th and 13th centuries, we possess a considerable amount of information. They were built on a cruciform plan with four central iwans or vaulted halls, with many adjacent rooms including kitchens, storage areas, a pharmacy, some living quarters for the staff, and sometimes a library. Each iwan was usually provided with fountains to provide a supply of clean water and baths. There was a separate hall for women patients and areas reserved for the treatment of conditions prevalent in the area -- eye ailments, gastrointestinal complaints (especially dysentery and diarrhoea), and fevers. There was also an area for surgical cases and a special ward for the mentally ill. Some had an area for rheumatics and cold sufferers (mabrudun). There frequently were out-patient clinics with a free dispensary of medicaments. The staff included pharmacists and a roster of physicians who were required at appointed times to be in attendance and make the rounds of patients, prescribing medications. These were assisted by stewards and orderlies, as well as a considerable number of male and female attendants who tended the basic needs of the patients. There were also instructors (mu`allimun), possibly aspiring medical students, who trained the non-professional staff. The budget of such institutions must have been considerable, and in fact the budget of the Mansuri hospital in Cairo was the largest of any public institution there. Over the entire staff and responsible for the management of the hospital was an administrator who was not usually trained in medicine. In most instances he was a political appointment, subject to the unpredictable fluctuations of political favor, for the position of controller of a hospital was a very lucrative one. The chief of staff, on the other hand, was a medical man.

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/exhibition/islamic_medical/islamic_12.html

@ Naziass: Oh they will be!!

Anyone know of any Bishop / Mollah type units that have been made? I got the monk, monk with torch (fanatic), am probably going to use some king units for Muslim 'monks'. But things like dervishes, Islamic poets, bishops, cardinals etc would be really useful.

This is an absolute treasure trove:

Online Resources for Medievalists
http://marginalia.co.uk/resources.php

Like I said, I only got to Utahjazz7's units, I may go through the rest of the second page later today, any particular's to keep an eye out for?

I could check CivArmy1994's page for leaderheads if needbe.

Like I said, I only got to Utahjazz7's units, I may go through the rest of the second page later today, any particular's to keep an eye out for?I need monks. Friar type monks. Guys who look like this:
http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/2172/macbr1157ej.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

And Bishops:
http://img488.imageshack.us/img488/5448/bishop4qp.jpg (http://imageshack.us)http://img488.imageshack.us/img488/8006/bishopp5gt.gif (http://imageshack.us)

Any guys who look like this (to be astrologers, alchemists or Arab cartographers):
http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/324/arabastrologersc0gj.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Or guys like this (potential to be a few civilian units)
http://img374.imageshack.us/img374/8149/caspar7aa.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Mollahs, perhaps like this
http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/970/turkmenmollah2io.gif (http://imageshack.us)

Donkeys seem to have been the transport of choice for mollahs. Here's one of Nasruddin (very famous character from Arabic storytelling traditions, funny guy too!)
http://img364.imageshack.us/img364/5044/mullahnasruddin8bu.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

That's it for now.

Monks, bishops, Imams, and Arabian civilians. OK, If they're on CFC I'll have them shortly.

Here are some of the units:

I take no responsiblity for any of the ideas, designs or otherwise creation of any of the units listed below.

Fanatic by Kinboat:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=39260

Mongol Horde by Kinboat: doesn't really fit, but you might have a Mongol Civ far, far to the east.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=67279

Temujin by mrtn: maybe if you take away the magic attack he could be an Imam (Arab priest)
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=71465

Mage by mrtn: also take away the magic attack.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=111158

Priest by Steph
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=59844&page=4

I had seen all but the priest before but that priest is bang on it. Perfect! And what an amazing collection of units Steph has there! Very fine work.

Research of the Middle Ages truly begins...NOW!!! I am doing nothing all weekend, so I should be able to go through my Age of Kings and the Conqueror's Expansion info, and possibly even touch on Medieval Total War before the weekend is over.

Tank Guy: When you're done reading the game histories, I recommend reading through some of the links I've posted through this thread. There is plenty of good content in them.

Tank_guy, just remember that the feudal and chivarlic men-at-arms in MTW are probably not historical since medieval army's swordmen were often light supportive infantry rather than the main bulk.

This is kewl dudes!
y'all going to make a game of it someday?
slowmoving and hard to write but steadily progressing once a month like other forums?

It is great to see Nasreddin Hoca in the forums! He is indeed funny.

You asked me what the Ottomans used as an infantry weapon. I researched it a bit and the winner iiiiissss: Hooked staff. I came across some drawings from that era and saw that Ottoman infantry used `bill-like` weapons against cavalry. They also used axes.

If you are planning to add some Elite units, `Serdengecti`(Head Riskers) will be the perfect choice.

More to come soon...

I don't think anyone addressed the ordering of units, but please don't repeat the Epic game's mistake of having dismounted knights and pikemen come before mounted knights.

Someone asked about Fatimid ships. I believe they used your typical mediterranean galleys.

Can you suggest an ordering of the units presented so far TLC? Forget the monks and stuff, just the military types.

Someone asked about Fatimid ships. I believe they used your typical mediterranean galleys.

They used dhows and baggalas as ships in Medieval: Total War.

btw Aaglo's Corasair unit is a great to play as a Dhow unit.

Here is the order of ships on my tech tree. I can't really give a good foot unit list since I havn't began working on them yet.

Note that a Carrack can carry the most units of any ship here, but a galleon is faster and has a higher attack and defense value.

Curragh - Upgrades to Galley
Galley
Longboat - Upgrades to Cog
Dromon
Dhow
Fusta - Uprades to Galliot
Cog - Upgrades to Carrack
Galliot
Galleass
Heavey Galleass
Mahon (Turkish version of a Galleass)
Carrack
Caravel - Upgrades to Galleon
Galleon
War Galleon

I'll only be looking at the European side - I don't know the Arabs, Persians, etc, well enough.

In the OP, you mentioned these units:
Foot Knight
Mounted Knight
Longbowman
Crossbowman
Pikeman
Maceman
Other Medieval Infantry types
Artillery? (not so important as there won't be many of these units)
Cannon
Musket
These are mostly late medieval types. In the Dark Age, you'd get spearmen, lightly armoured infantry with swords, axes, etc (I suppose the Maceman goes here), and light cavalry with javelins or stabbing spears. Plus archers. The Byzantines also had heavy cavalry.

Ca 1000 AD true knights appear, but they're still fairly lightly armoured - chainmail rather than plate armour. Knight armour gets progressively heavier thru the rest of the middle ages and beyond. From the 14th century on, knights often fight on foot.

The pike was developed as a counter to knight charges. Eventually it came to be used also as an offensive weapon. Like crossbows and longbows, it became important during the high medieval period (ca 1000-1350) - exact ordering should probably be down to research paths.

The late middle ages sees increased use of polearms for infantry, and towards the end of the period effective hand-held firearms - arquebuses etc. The musket didn't come around till the 16th century.

I suppose siege artillery - catapults, ballistae, etc - became important with the epidemic of castellation 900-1100 or so. Cannons become effective siege weapons in the 15th century. Field artillery mostly had to wait for the early modern period.

Rough order could thus be:

start units: maceman, spearman, horseman, archer
knights
catapults
pikemen
crossbowmen
longbowmen
foot knights
halberdier
cannon
arquebusier

You might want to have updates for some of these - a more heavily armoured late medieval knight, frex, or a couple of generations of archers.

I am most grateful to both of you. :worship:

Ca 1000 AD true knights appear, but they're still fairly lightly armoured - chainmail rather than plate armour. Knight armour gets progressively heavier thru the rest of the middle ages and beyond. From the 14th century on, knights often fight on foot.

The pike was developed as a counter to knight charges. Eventually it came to be used also as an offensive weapon. Like crossbows and longbows, it became important during the high medieval period (ca 1000-1350) - exact ordering should probably be down to research paths.
There seems to have been two slightly contradictory trends in the development of military styles prior to about 1300.

You get the feudal heavy horseman, a warrior caste (N. France, England, German Rhinlenad), where the noble knight is surrounded by levied commoners serving for 40 days as per feudal spec., but battles are won by heavy cavalry. It's a nice system for a mainly rural society, fuedalism is.
The noble warrior caste concentrate on honing their skills and constantly upgrade their gear (heavier horse, heavier armour etc.)

The real key to battlefield success was of course the deployment of heavy cav. in tight formation. That was what the original "joust" invented in N. France was all about; teams of knights beating the other guys through group effort as a way to practice warfare. William Marshall, being the most successful team-captain ever and consequently named "the best knight in the world" (Duby, "William Marshall").
Of course the real war was about fortified positions, and that goes all over Europe.

In the feudal areas war was very much a local thing, the typical conflict being between two nobles about land. Barbara Tuchman has a nice little snapshot of one of these tiny wars, which was mostly about ruining the other guys economy by capturing his peasants and hacking their feet off. A brilliant strategy since it leaves them alive (mostly) as another mouth to feed but unable to do much farming (or fighting).

And then you have Italy and S. France where feudalism wasn't on the order. So weaker and poorer nobles, slower adaption of heavy cav, greater degree of urbanisation (and trade) with the burgher fighting for themselves and mercenaries coming into more general use in the 12th c.
Just to illustrate S. French nobility: The land was successively broken up de to the Roman Law inheritence system. What you ended up with were mannors owned by a dozen or so people who chose to live among the burghers in the city and left the land to an employed steward. In one case, a knight's entire estate consisted on 1/200th of the Marseille city wall. Apparently the revenue was enough to for his upkeep. This was very far from the N. French feudal knights and their landowning.
The merc.s mostly came from contested border areas (Flanders, "the men of
Brabant", Basque counties etc.), were lower class, fought in formation and used pikes to bring down horsemen and thin daggers to kill them. Apparently it was a social thing; they didn't play the ransom game of the nobles. Of course the nobles hated them back and "les routiers" were routinely put to the sword if captured. The pope banned their use on several occasions because of their perverse habit of killing men of quality (Duby, "The Sunday at Bouvines").

But then in the 13th c. it was the bloody knights who won the contest. The French heavy cav. rode down the S. French from 1208 to the 1240's (a series of crusades). And in the 1260's they did the same to the S. Italians. Feudalism was imposed, and the S. French cities dwindled (unlike the N. Italian ones they had operated like up until then), the kingdom of Sicily came under foreign rule and also slumped. (Prior to the French conquest Sicily was a centralised kingdom with the principle of equality before the law applied, so no feudal privileges there.)

In the meantime the N. Italian city states of the Lombard League cut more than one Imperial army to pieces, so not much feudalism there, a general "martial spirit" and eventually both capitalism and the Renaissance come out of this area.
(Feudalism spread eastwards through German expansion. It was adopted in Denmark, which had the land and the money to support the system, but never in Norway, that didn't. Sweden ended up in between with a system of nobility in return for armed service to the king by knights on horse, but they were so pitifully few that in battle the commoners on foot still decided the outcome.)

Oh, and then there would be another round of professionalisation and mercenaries used further north during the 100 years war, this time directly involving the N. French and the English and again departing from the doctrine of the noble knight/heavy horseman.

That's great stuff Verbose. That will really help to create the distinctions between civs. Sorry I don't have time to share much atm, very busy at work this week. I'll drop somemore info for others making medieval scenarios a bit later but there is already some good content in the links through this thread already.

I was thinking more of an order like this:

start units: maceman, spearman, horseman, archer
knights
longbowmen
catapults
pikemen
foot knights
halberdier
crossbowmen
cannon
arquebusier

I think I found a site for a wonder splash: for the tech that allows you to create crusades (maybe you can change "army" to "crusade").

http://www.maryevans.com/galleries.php?gall=inform&pic=4&usr=notlogged

IF you were considering adding that wonder about D'Aubusson heres a good pic:
http://www.maryevans.com/cgi-bin/dwsrun?SHOW

None of those links work TG. Check your PMs also.

Hmmmm, they work for me when I try. I'll repost the links. If the links don't work try it the old fashioned way, the directions of sorts are below.

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Crusade: http://www.maryevans.com/galleries.php?gall=inform&pic=4&usr=notlogged

The Crusade one: just go to google, type "Mary Evans" then the first link that comes up should be "Mary Evans Picture Library-Closer to History". Click on "Galleries", then click "Inform Me." you'll see a set of 9 pics to the right and one big one to the left. The pic I'm talking about is in the first column, second row.

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The link doesn't work sorry.

D'Aubusson: Just go to google, type "Mary Evans" then the first link that comes up should be "Mary Evans Picture Library-Closer to History". In the search box type "Siege Rhodes", and its the picture on the Right.

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GI Dustin's File Emporium: http://www.civ3files.com/cgi-bin/Civ3Files.cgi?Page=ShowContributor&Contributor=2

GI Dustin's Scenario List: http://www.civ3files.com/cgi-bin/Civ3Files.cgi?Page=ShowMods

That Medieval European Mod was by Yoda Power (PTW). To get there (the old fashioned way), first go to the "Units Library", get to GI Dustin's section, then click on his link to go to his web page, click "Mods/Scenarios" in really tiny print. Then go almost all the way down the page and you will see it.

If it really doesn't work, even doing it the old fashioned way, let me know and I can email the pic's and post a summary of the scenario. Sorry for all the extra work.