Well this will be a discussion on everything that we need.

Cities aren't a problem...

So, here are the current suggestions.

Leaders:

Saul
David
Solomon
David Ben-Gurion
Menachem Begin
Golda Meir

UU- Mossad, Merkava, Maccabee.

Starting Techs- Mysticism, Mining

Flag- White, with Menorah emblem.

So...what are your suggestions? What should the UU be? What should the 2 leaders be? Traits? Favored civic? Flag?

Discuss here! =D

Unique Unit should be a special spy with better chance for success/cheaper cost/possible other bonuses?

Or

Merkava armour, like Germany's Panzer, a specialized armour unit?

Israel is famed after all for it's armoured corps and it's interlligence agencies.

Do the UUs have any other benefit than being somewhat better than their vanilla counterparts? Since the Indian UU is a fast worker, I don't think so.

The point that I'm coming to is - do Israel really need a UU? Couldn't they have an overall bonus to military in modern time, making all military units somewhat cheaper to reflect them being "sponsored" by the US?

Wouldn't that be an interesting bonus? if not I'd probably go with the improved spy.

Well this will be a discussion on everything that we need.

Cities aren't a problem...

So, here are the current suggestions.

Leaders:

David (Spiritual, Expansive) favors Hereditary Rule
Solomon (Spiritual, Creative) favors Organized Religion
David Ben-Gurion (Spiritual, Industrial) favors Universal Suffrage
Golda Meir (Spiritual, Philosophical) favors Pacifism

UU- Mossad, Merkava, Maccabee.

Starting Techs- Mysticism, Mining

Flag- White, with Menorah emblem.

So...what are your suggestions? What should the UU be? What should the 2 leaders be? Traits? Favored civic? Flag?

Discuss here! =D
Ok.. Leaders that would be greatest:
Solomon (spiritual,industrial) favors organized religion
David Ben-Gurion (Creative, Industrial) favors Universal Suffrage
UU - Merkava tank!
Starting Techs- Mysticism, Agriculture
Flag- the one you suggested could fit

Good ideas....i had another idea for the flag but i can't find it.

I know that the 12 tribes of Israel each had their own flag/symbol....but was there one also for United Israel? During Saul, David & Solomon?

I'm pretty sure the Star of David represents the 12 tribes. And I think it would be a much better flag.

David- Spiritual and Expansionist, favors Theocracy
Solomon- Spiritual and Philisophical OR Economic, favors Theocracy

UU- better spy

Flag- Star of David

UU--Slingshot.
before David became king, he killed the Philistines' champion Goliath with a single shot from his sling.

So...what are your suggestions? What should the UU be? What should the 2 leaders be? Traits? Favored civic? Flag?

Israel. My favorite civ. :D

Leaders- I would go with Solomon and David ben-Gurion, using the above suggestions for their traits.

UU- I would agree with the Maccabee as an early UU, as well as the Merkavah and Mossad as late UUs

Techs- Monotheism (so Judaism could be established right off the bat) and Agriculture

Flag- The current Israeli flag

Israel. My favorite civ. :D

Leaders- I would go with Solomon and David ben-Gurion, using the above suggestions for their traits.

UU- I would agree with the Maccabee as an early UU, as well as the Merkavah and Mossad as late UUs

Techs- Monotheism (so Judaism could be established right off the bat) and Agriculture

Flag- The current Israeli flag

I've heard lots of different comments, of just taking away Judaism as a religion. Not because of it's number, but because it is more of a culture......What do you think?

Replace Judaism with something else...maybe advanced paganism? o.o;

On the other hand, Christianity and Islam did derive from Judaism. Tough call.

In either case, my personal choice is also Solomon and Ben-Gurion.

But i want more comments on what their traits should be.

Anyways on why i think Mysticism and Mining should be the starting techs,

Well...Mysticism is an obvious choice, as we are a religious civ. And i Chose Mining. In relation to Industrialism, Solomon's Gold Mine and the Holy Temple.

I've heard lots of different comments, of just taking away Judaism as a religion. Not because of it's number, but because it is more of a culture......What do you think?

I’m sorry, but I don’t understand how Judaism could not be considered a religion. Where were these comments made?

David should be put in, simply because of all of Israel's famous rulers, he is the only one that all historians, as far as I know, support a a good ruler. Also Golda Meir should be the modern one, although David Ben Gurion would be good also. I think a David-Meir pair would be interesting. David would prefer hereditary rule and be spritiual-expansive, Meir would prefer representative rule and be spiritual-philisophical. I am not sure if you can mode this in or not, but I am pretty sure that youcan adjust if leaders are more likely to fight or be diplomatic. Golda Meir would be much more diplomatic while david would bemuch more prone to war. UU would have to be Macabee. THe Macabees symbolise the Jewish/Israelite spirit of resilience and were also the most famous of ancient Isael's warriors, and while it is good to strike a balance between the modern civ and the ancient one, the ancient one should take prevelance in the case of Israel.

I’m sorry, but I don’t understand how Judaism could not be considered a religion. Where were these comments made?

Various forums.

People suggest this, as we do not prostelyze, discourage converts, and are a very close knit community, of which we have our genes tracked as our own individual culture.

People would rather see, Israel, with only starting off with religion. And having it's own dis/advantages.

1. No Missionaries, can only spread religion via culture.
2. Religious culture is spread slowly and less effective, although borders are not effected.
3. Science and Industrial Boost.

That seems to be one of the many suggestions for an Israel mod.

I guess Israel/Hebrew's/Jew's, ended up being so special as a civilization, virtually unchanged in it's 6000 (on calender) years history, that it requires it's own flavor, that other civs cannot achieve without having a history much like Israel.

Well this is exactly what this topic was for, exactly how to create the Israeli civilization. We have practically unlimited resources, pending modders, on how Israel (one of many) civilizations, should be different.

So yeah.

David should be put in, simply because of all of Israel's famous rulers, he is the only one that all historians, as far as I know, support a a good ruler. Also Golda Meir should be the modern one, although David Ben Gurion would be good also. I think a David-Meir pair would be interesting. David would prefer hereditary rule and be spritiual-expansive, Meir would prefer representative rule and be spiritual-philisophical. I am not sure if you can mode this in or not, but I am pretty sure that youcan adjust if leaders are more likely to fight or be diplomatic. Golda Meir would be much more diplomatic while david would bemuch more prone to war. UU would have to be Macabee. THe Macabees symbolise the Jewish/Israelite spirit of resilience and were also the most famous of ancient Isael's warriors, and while it is good to strike a balance between the modern civ and the ancient one, the ancient one should take prevelance in the case of Israel.

Yes i am pretty sure we can modify the aggressiveness of a leader. I also believe that we should have one ancient and one modern leader.

A new one i suggest is...

Menachem Begin. Pretty much tied with Ben-Gurion for most popular leader. Oddly enough no votes for Meir. Not even 1%.

He was aboard the Altalena, whom many believe Ben-Gurion was trying to destroy because of that, He was the leader of Irgun, Ben-Gurion and Begin hated eachother. =), Made Peace with Egypt, invaded Lebanon to drive out terrorists, And bombed the Iraqi Nuclear reactor. And apparently had good relations with the Religious community. (1913-1992)

Spiritual & Philosophical (favors Emancipation)
The Jewish people have unchallengeable, eternal, historic right to the Land of Israel including the West Bank and Gaza Strip, the inheritance of their forefathers (and he pledged to build rural and urban exclusive Jewish colonies in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

So you can see why i picked Emancipation.

I've heard lots of different comments, of just taking away Judaism as a religion. Not because of it's number, but because it is more of a culture......What do you think?

Replace Judaism with something else...maybe advanced paganism? o.o;

On the other hand, Christianity and Islam did derive from Judaism. Tough call.
My honest opinion? True Judaism is much more than just a feel good religion or a cultural observance. It is a way of life. It affects what you eat, what you say, and how you treat others. So to even suggest replacing Judaism with paganism is repulsive. (I merely find the idea repulsive, not the person who suggested it.) The two beliefs are diametrically opposed and therefore totally incompatible.


And i Chose Mining. In relation to Industrialism, Solomon's Gold Mine and the Holy Temple.
Ah, but the majority of Solomon's wealth came from not from within, but from the distant land of Ophir. So how could we fit that into the game? I do agree that the Beit HaMikdash should be included, but I think that it should be represented as a Great Wonder (which would involve extensive editing).

David should be put in, simply because of all of Israel's famous rulers, he is the only one that all historians, as far as I know, support a a good ruler.
David is a good choice, and I have used him in Civ III, but this time I chose Solomon simply because he was the one to build the 1st Temple.

People suggest this, as we do not prostelyze, discourage converts, and are a very close knit community, of which we have our genes tracked as our own individual culture.

People would rather see, Israel, with only starting off with religion. And having it's own dis/advantages.

1. No Missionaries, can only spread religion via culture.
2. Religious culture is spread slowly and less effective, although borders are not effected.
3. Science and Industrial Boost.
This is all true.

However, the 1st Cent. P'rushim (Pharisees) were apparently well funded enough to send out emissaries (sort of like missionaries) throughout the earth. This was likely stopped after the destruction of the Temple in 70 CE. So, we were actively seeking converts at some point in our history. As for our modern practice of discouraging converts, I belive this practice to be in grave error.

So, with all that being said, I believe we can leave things as they are with Judaism as valid, full-fledged religion.

Good Points Nate.

I am generally so accustomed to the laws...that they feel second nature to me. Although i would find it weird to see say...Mongolia adopt Judaism, it is possible. After all look at the Khazars. They were Turks themselves. And they converted to Judaism, and allowed freedom of religion. Those Turks sure are liberal....

In either case, the Khazars were probably the first non semitic nation ever to convert to Judaism, create a kingdom, and become a regional power, up until it's collapse from Barbarians.

Although i digress.

And yes the gold did come from ophir but still, the great Beit HaMikdash, was a great wonder, that was made possible due the Mining...which gives Masonry...and gold.

Wasn't the walls made up of gold? Eh? Eh? Talk about a golden opportunity to make a joke! XD

Sorry.

David is a good choice, and I have used him in Civ III, but this time I chose Solomon simply because he was the one to build the 1st Temple.

true.

But who for the modern? Technically there have only been like 7...

David Ben-Gurion
Moshe Sharett
Levi Eshkol
Golda Meir
Yitzhak Rabin
Menachem Begin

Those are all the dead modern israeli leaders. Oo

What's your pick? As said Ben-Gurion and Begin are the most famous in Israel. Although Ben-Gurion is also famous internationally...so is Begin.

Can you please suggest a list of Israeli cities as well? I have found some lists on the forum myself but I believe you guys are more passionate about accuracy. :) I would like to place the info on my Missing Civs Database for future modding reference along with others. Some great people would also be nice. Thanks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_in_Israel

and any cities in the bible, that aren't mentioned as they were destroyed.

But here are a few noteable ones.

Jerusalem
Haifa
Tel-Aviv
Megiddo
Hebron
Jaffa
Ashkelon
Rishon L'Tzion

Im thinking Soloman as the ancient leader, and Gurion for the modern one because he is better known then Golda Meir.

The flag should definitly be modern Israels flag and change Judaisms symbol to a menorah.

Heres an Idea, maybee Gurion could favor State property to show sort of early Zionism and Kibutzim wich were basicly little comunist towns. I dont know if this reflects Gurion very well.

for the UU i think a Macabee becuase it will probly prove more useful than the Merkava, wich would also be pretty cool.

But who for the modern? Technically there have only been like 7
Someone who was passionate about the land, actively involved in defending it, and not willing to give it away at the drop of a hat. My nomination would go to David ben-Gurion...

And yes the gold did come from ophir but still, the great Beit HaMikdash, was a great wonder, that was made possible due the Mining...which gives Masonry...and gold.
True.

Can you please suggest a list of Israeli cities as well?
Gogf actually put together a list of cities that I used for Civ III. Let me see if I can dig it up.

Well...early Israel was Socialist. So i can see why.

Plus our form of communism, was the only one that ever worked. Bet that pissed the Soviets off. ;)

What about the IAF?

They are supposed to be the best-trained airforce in the world.

F-16I could be their special unit?

This is good stuff.

But we still need a consensus on the 2 leaders, and their traits.

Maybe i should petition the mods to put a poll of a list of leaders, and ask people to pick the 2 they think it should be?

I assume the mods can do that right? X_X

some more cities:

in no particular order.

Elat
Ashdod
Netanya
Bat Yam
Beersheva
Holon
Petach Tikvah
Safed

some less notable ones:

Hadera
Herzilya
Raanana
Kfar Saba
Bne Brak
Ramat Gan
Rshovot
Ashkelon
Kiryat Gat
Nazareth
Tiberias
Carmiel
Kiryat Shemona
Metulla

The flag should definitly be modern Israels flag and change Judaisms symbol to a menorah.
I would not be completely opposed to this idea, although there is evidence that the Magen David (Star of David) has ancient origins and is therefore appropriate.

Yeah Pilots are treated like gods in Israel, but i would hate to see my Israel stuck with a stupid plane :(

why are you totaly opposed to my flag idea?

How about the Olive Branch and Dove? That's also a famous Jewish symbol isn't it?

I thought those were more just Peace symbols?

why are you totaly opposed to my flag idea?

Who is? I don't think anyone has totally opposed it....

I agree that Israel should have the Magen David. Or in this case the Cohav David, as Goy's call it. ;)

Plus our form of communism, was the only one that ever worked.
That's because in our form of communism we took care of each other and did not try to stamp out religion.

What about the IAF?

They are supposed to be the best-trained airforce in the world.
They are. They've even bested our pilots in combat sims. (And we have some well-trained pilots).
Maybe i should petition the mods to put a poll of a list of leaders, and ask people to pick the 2 they think it should be?
An excellent idea.

I thought those were more just Peace symbols?

Well yes, but i believe it is also a Jewish symbol.

Remember the story on Noah, he sent the Dove to go search for signs of life and it brough an olive branch back.

o wow i misread that he was saying i would NOT be compleatly opposed to this idea as i would be compleatly opposed to this idea

my bad.

why are you totaly opposed to my flag idea?
I'm not. I said,"I would not be completely opposed to this idea..."

Ok Here's the list i will ask. (Pick one Ancient and one Modern)

Saul (Ancient)
David (Ancient)
Solomon (Ancient)

David Ben-Gurion (Modern)
Menachem Begin (Modern)
Golda Meir (Modern)

That fine?

we need a poll with multible options that you can check off, one set for the leaders, some more for the flag, and some more for the UU.

I'm not. I said,"I would not be completely opposed to this idea..."

Which means you would be a little opposed then. ;)

we need a poll with multible options that you can check off, one set for the leaders, some more for the flag, and some more for the UU.

Is that possible? I'd probably have to create like a different thread for each...

yeah that would be easier

I have a better idea...and if the mods allow it, we only need this one thread.

We start off by choosing the 2 leaders. Keep it up for like a few days, there should be enough votes by then.

Then the UU...and if by then we still don't have a consensus, then ask them to make a poll for the flag.

What would you think? =D

no....probably won't work. Some people might vote just once, unless it's a new thread. hmm...

I guess we'll have it.

Is anyone one willing to make this mod, does anyone know how?

How about the Olive Branch and Dove? That's also a famous Jewish symbol isn't it?
Well, I wouldn't call it famous, but it is a Jewish symbol. However, since it is associated with peace, an enemy may get the wrong idea. ;)

I'm very comfortable with the Magen David, but I do like the idea of the Menorah. You could also do the flag of Jerusalem as an alternate...

Hang on a minute, we don't need different threads to do a poll.

All we need is for Xineoph to pm a mod (Chieftess, Civrules, etc...) and ask them to add a poll to this thread. Also, make sure when you pm them to include full details of what you would like in the poll.

Is anyone one willing to make this mod, does anyone know how?
I propose that we approach CivArmy and Gogf with a merger proposal to work together on the Israeli civ in their mod.

As an Israeli listen to me. Golda Meir was probably one of the worst prime ministers of Israel. Menahem Begin was indeed a good one, but Ben Gurion is like a founding father for israel. His traits should be Industrial and creative and I still dont know enough about civics to say what he preffers.
As for an ancient leader - the only two really great ones were David and Solomon(Shlomo actually. Stop distroting our names! :) Since Shlomo is more associated with the Temple we can have him. Industrial and Spiritual is good. He will prefer thoecracy.
Starting techs - Mysticism of course and agriculture. The israelites were no miners, but farmers.
UU - Maccabees, well, lame. And there are enough swordman UUs. Merkava, OTHO, is the best tank in the world. And what is that nonsense about F16? It is an american product! O_O So what if we use them really good^^

Well that's abuot it for now:)

but Ben Gurion is like a founding father for israel I thought Abraham(distrotation?) was the founding father of Israel... :p

Seriously though, has the Merkava, being the best tank in the world alongside all other modern tanks depending on who you ask, seen any battle?

Other than that I'd vote for Ben Gurion and Shlomo :) . There are no good UU:S for Israel so I think they should get a penalty to their relations toward their neighbouring civs but get cheaper military equipment. Atleast in singleplayer it would work and be interesting.

Shlomo actually. Stop distroting our names
Of course Shlomo is the correct pronunciation, but few people over here would understand who you are talking about.

The israelites were no miners, but farmers.
Agreed. I also suggested agriculture.

UU - Maccabees, well, lame. And there are enough swordman UUs. Merkava, OTHO, is the best tank in the world. And what is that nonsense about F16? It is an american product! O_O So what if we use them really good^^
Considering what the Maccabees represent and their contribution to our history, I think they make a very appropriate UU. In reality, you could give Israel many UUs (the Maccabees, the Jewish Legion of WWI, Modern Tzanchanim, the Rascal, Heyl ha'Avir, and Mossad)

I didn't pick mining, because the Israeli's were miners, i picked it in regards to industrialization and it leads to masonry, which relates to the Beit HaMikdash (Solomon's Temple).

BTW, to those that have Civ 4 right now, what Jewish wonders are there?

I've been thinking of possible wonders...here are the only ones i thought up off the top of my head.

Beit HaMikdash
King Solomons Mine
Knesset HaGedolah (Great Assembly)


I'll look up more and post later.

But yeah Solomon and Gurion should be fine.

Although just to note, a poll was taken at February 2005. Begin and Gurion were tied (Although Begin had 1% more votes) on a poll asking who was the Best Israeli Leader.

;p

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/monarchy.html

I knew Saul wasn't a very good king...but Solomon as well?

The only one they do paint in good colors is David.

What do you think?

Solomon may have been a wise king, and did build the temple....Then again, every leader did have a bad trait.

Read the link regardless and give your comments.

calling "shlomo" "soloman" is not distorting! its simpily using the english name of a hebrew name, not distorting.

Wow. For the Jewish virtual library to make such mistakes about our history is surprising.
When Saul kills himself
Shaul did not commit suicide, he was killed in battle against the Philistines with his son Yonatan.
until he commits a crime greater than any Saul had committed: he murders a man in order to marry his wife.
Not entirely accurate. David first committed adultery with Batsheva and got her pregnant as a result, then he arranged for Uriah's death.

Bible....history or first soap opera? ;)

Anyways i'll go contact the mods on putting the 3 leaders of the United Tribes of Israel. ;), and the 3 best known Modern Israeli Leaders.

Anyways i'll go contact the mods on putting the 3 leaders of the United Tribes of Israel. ;), and the 3 best known Modern Israeli Leaders.
Sounds like a plan.

Make the leader Ariel Sharon. It would be much more fun to defeat Israel in the game that way. Make a Palestinian one while youre at it to, with Yassar Arafat as the leader, so it can be fun defeating Palestine in the game too lol.

I think to be a leader in Civ, you have to be dead for like 10 years at least? or at the very least dead.

BTW Nate, i contacted civrules and unfortuantly he cannot add a poll after a thread has been created, would you like me to make a new thread with a poll?

Wow. For the Jewish virtual library to make such mistakes about our history is surprising.

Shaul did not commit suicide, he was killed in battle against the Philistines with his son Yonatan.

Not entirely accurate. David first committed adultery with Batsheva and got her pregnant as a result, then he arranged for Uriah's death.

Actually he did commit suicide after losing that battle ^^

Menachem Begin - 32.8%
David Ben-Gurion- 32.0%
Yitzhak Rabin -14.0%
Ariel Sharon - 7.0%
Shimon Peres - 3.0%
Bibi Netanyahu - 2.0%


Channel two did some TV survey in February asking Israeli's who they thought was the greatest leader.

I'm surprised Meir, Eshkol, Sharett or Shamir, did not receive any votes whatsoever...

Still as said, it is something to ponder about.

And makes me consider to use David & Begin as the leaders.

But still, just to ask again, do you want me to make a new thread this time with the leader poll?

Menachem Begin - 32.8%
David Ben-Gurion- 32.0%
Yitzhak Rabin -14.0%
Ariel Sharon - 7.0%
Shimon Peres - 3.0%
Bibi Netanyahu - 2.0%


Channel two did some TV survey in February asking Israeli's who they thought was the greatest leader.

I'm surprised Meir, Eshkol, Sharett or Shamir, did not receive any votes whatsoever...

Still as said, it is something to ponder about.

And makes me consider to use David & Begin as the leaders.

But still, just to ask again, do you want me to make a new thread this time with the leader poll?

Well as I siad Meir was the worst PM. She had let the 73 war break out.
The others just didnt do anything significant.

They all did noteworthy things, just Ben-Gurion and Begin did the most noteworthy.

Anyways your vote was for Ben-Gurion & Solomon

Right now mines are Begin & David...After all even though Ben-Gurion was the first PM. Begin was the head of the Irgun, which makes him also a founding father of Israel.

Both are great in their own rights.

And it is hard to pick from them.

Still, i guess we should have votes in.

David:
Solomon: 1
David Ben-Gurion:
Menachem Begin: 1

So as a confirmation, tell me who your votes are at this moment, you can change your vote at anytime. =)

Xineoph, go ahead and create another thread with a poll if you want.

some more cities:

in no particular order.

Elat
Ashdod
Netanya
Bat Yam
Beersheva
Holon
Petach Tikvah
Safed

some less notable ones:

Hadera
Herzilya
Raanana
Kfar Saba
Bne Brak
Ramat Gan
Rshovot
Ashkelon
Kiryat Gat
Nazareth
Tiberias
Carmiel
Kiryat Shemona
Metulla

I'd like to see more ancient names in the list. Such as Jericho, Hebron and
Bethlehem...

why always Maccabi? why not a special missioney that can convert and stay (the Mishkan)

how about the Lavi plane?

im for Merkava tank.
perhaps you can add more leaders? I would suggest Izhak Rabin and Ariel Sharon.

Has anyone mentioned the Israeli Air Force and a UU as an aircraft unit? Although the planes themselves weren't unique to Israel, the pilot were unmatched. Also, reflecting that every Israeli citizen serves in the army, could it work to give worker units some extra combat ability? Or extra defense to cities or abilities to combat units guarding cities?

Also, what about the prophets in the Torah? Maybe there's some use for a "prophet" unit? Just random thoughts.

I am an Israeli native who has lived in both the USA and Israel and am now currently studying in Istanbul. I have 1st hand knowledge of many of the items in questoin.
Perhaps a good leader would be Ariel Sharon, the one in a coma right now. Was the best General Israel had and the last leader who served high in the army ranks.
Special units can range from Shayetet 13 and Sayeret(israeli commandos), to F16i modified israeli fighter jet of the IAF, mossad, merkava tanks,
Your choice of white menorah on flag is good as it looks like the israeli national emblem.

i think it should be more politically correct as in a israelli-palestinian civ
the palestineans have been there for a longer period of time and more recently and it is still very culturally arab
i would put the flag as the palestinian flag with the star of david over it
leaders david and some palestinian leader
i like the idea of the sling shot

No I don't think having a Palestine-Israeli Civ makes any sense. They have two very different cultures and have been fighting over the land for ages.

As for the leaders, I strongly suggest the Solomon and Ben-Gurion combo. They're both very different and both very important to the history of Israel. Or perhaps Sharon instead of Ben-Gurion, seen as he is generally more famous today. And the Merkava Battle Tank is probably the best choice for UU.

I have a citylist you're free to use. I did some extensive research to find the names and put a lot of though into the order. Basically, it's a balance between historically important cities and famous / well-known cities. You can find it in my city list thread. Any feedback appreciated, and good luck with the modding! =)

I agree, we should have a seperate Palestine civilisation, with the suicide bomber as UU. :D