I surely must be doing something wrong... the Diplomacy seems like an exercise in futility... nothing I do can please the AI, the few options there are to bind an AI civ to me seem worthless if they're even present at all... the AI gives out Open Borders like its candy... so that's no way to separate friend from foe... I can give any AI civ the left side of my empire and every tech I have and they're still unimpressed...

I'm being invaded by a country that's using a "friendly" country to pass their troops, and I can't even ask them to cancel their Open Borders agreement with the aggressor... and it's not because they refuse to. The option is not even there! Neither is the option to form a defense pact or a permanent alliance in spite of the fact that I've discovered the necessary technologies.... (And even given them to the civ I'm trying to establish such an agreement with). Not only that, but I can't make any offers such as declaring war or stopping trade with their enemies. There simply are no options in those categories...

What am I doing wrong? Am I doing something wrong? Or is this system just completely fubar?

There should be some option to cancel all trade deals with such and such, this probably includes 'open borders'.

However I am dissapointed that a so-called "friendly" civ can demand a tech and then get mad when I don't comply, they should at least try to trade or give me gold first...

It just takes time, I got to the point where 3 of the 6 civs I knew were "Friendly" and the other 3 were "Pleased." Because of this, I asked one of the friendly civs for a tech for free, and they actually gave it to me!! That NEVER happened in Civ 3. So I think you just need to keep trading, and keep up good relations. Just a little note here:

Cautious: -4 to +4
Pleased: +5 to +9
Friendly: +10 and up

I'm not sure about the lower ones, but I assume they go in 5's as well.

I also found that when I was at war I couldn't get my friendliest ally who was "Pleased" with me to go to bat for me. The option to War on the "Other Guy" was not there. Is there a tech I need to unlock?

This is really strange, i have those options but my "ally" just doesnt want to go to war with my enemy.

This is really strange, i have those options but my "ally" just doesnt want to go to war with my enemy.

maybe they just don't want to be manipulated into a war from which they have nothing to gain or alot to lose.

I'm having trouble dealing with the AI myself so far. But I'm thinking I'm doing something wrong and I just need to learn how to do it in Civ4. I'm playing a game on noble right now where I lead by a good margin in score and I'm the tech leader by a few techs. Most of the time the AI is unwilling to trade with me for reasons unknown. Even the backwards civs won't give me 1 techs in exchange for 5 techs. At first I thought they just had a deal with another civ telling them not to deal with me, but this goes on for hundreds of turns. And meanwhile I can't get any AI's to ally with me in wars or even to sign a "stop trading with" agreement. They're always redded out, even with civs that are "Pleased" with me. So now I'm thinking it has something to do with what civic they're in. I'm not really sure.

Hi

From what I have read, religion might be the root of your problems. They don't like trading with the heathen on infidel. Look at the game walk through by sula.

Other pre release info has suggested that the old ways of CIV III won't workout in the new God fearing world of CIV IV.

I don't have the game let in the Scotland and will have to shell out on a new machine to run it. :confused: Jealous or what. enjoy!

1. Allies won't go to war for you unless they are next to the enemy and they are stronger than them and have land to gain in the process.

2. Only countries with same religion as you do will be your true ally. Others could always flip sides.

This is yet another instance of old Civ III ideas not working in Civ IV.

Welcome to a better diplomacy system.

You can ask the "friendly" country to end its open boarders agreement, but only by asking them to end all trade with the other country. Even if there was an option to simply close borders, the act of closing them would close trade as well.

Feel free to ask but don't blame the game if they tell you to shove off. What would you do if some other Civ demanded you break a trade agreement with a Civ that was giving you Dyes or Gems for absolutely no reason and with no compensation?

I also enjoy how people are complaining that "Pleased" Civs wont go to war with them. Why would they? Would you?

In my most recent game the Greeks and Egyptians (Christian, to my east) are headed toward a war with the Aztecs and Chinese (Buddhist, to my west). All four of them trade with me. I'm Hindu, but I also control the Christian and Buddhist holy cities, so part of this is my fault for not doing a better job controlling religion.

So, I've got a brewing political war, and both sides regularly ask me to stop trading with the other. I keep trading with both sides and they're fine with that for now. If war breaks out, they'll ask me to join them. I don't want to join them. I just want to trade with them. Why would I start a war with someone who's providing me with two happiness resources and not even near me?

Why should I expect the AIs to do it?

Take a look, people. This is a vast improvement in diplomacy. I shouldn't be able to buy wars for a song. I shouldn't expect everyone who doesn't hate me to be willing to let their people die in a war that can't possibly benefit them. I shouldn't expect Civs who are prospering from trade with a country to lop off their hand because I don't like who they're trading with.

Yeah I love it - I am being consistantly voted as UN chair 3-4 times now. They will pass resolutions - lol except environmentalist. But it wasnt until recently that I was even in front of Alexander for the Diplo win. Got 404 vote needed 671.
I love that it is harder to keep people pleased - in fact while trying to do this my Aztec neighbors to the south are getting more and more annoyed at me...lol So I, a peaceloving peoples, have started modernizing and building up my armies. O btw the anti nuke rez passed first thing.
Meanwhile my culture is building and time is counting down - this game is chieftan so i am well out in front score wise. I was going for Diplo win because that was my Civ 3 speciality. Lol guess I need more Civ4 practice.

Ok, maybe I'm the only one or maybe my circumstances made me the victim.
I was Persia on Prince. The year was 2011, I had finally crushed the Inca, The Aztec were my brothers since the beginning and I had made good friends with Kublai Khan.
(both at Pleased)

Khan goes to war with Mali to stop him from completing his spaceship, which he does...amazingly well, about a city lost each other turn.

I'm about to complete the Internet...when the Mongolians appear out of nowhere with...Modern Armor and Gunships, I just had tanks. My guess is because the Mongolians were about to win and me being the only one within striking distance of taking his victory, he used his superior tech and army to squash me flat. Which, after getting over being pissed at the betrayal, is a very human thing to do.

Hi

From what I have read, religion might be the root of your problems. They don't like trading with the heathen on infidel. Look at the game walk through by sula.



Can someone link to this game walkthrough... i'm being retarded and can't find it!:sad:

go to general discussions and find the walkthru thread first post has the link.

Can someone link to this game walkthrough... i'm being retarded and can't find it!:sad:


http://www.kalikokottage.com/civ3/sullla/civ4SP.html

It's a great walkthrough. I haven't bought the game, but I feel like I've played along with Sulla. I will get the game on Monday....good bye sleep.

I've had civs that were willing to go to war with me vs other civs, its just not a common thing because as mentioned earlier would you just randomly go to war over nothing because someone asked you to? Occasionally though if you watch for it the opportunity for a 'partition' of another country will be there.

Just randomly giving another civ stuff doesn't help that much either. Things to do if you want to improve your relations with other civs:

1. Convert them to your religion. Requires a lot of cities of your religion in their country.

2. Open borders with them.

3. Start a trade/trades with them. The more stuff the better.

4. Give them stuff when they ask for it. Gives a nice +1 every time you do it.

5. Go to war with enemies that they are at war with.

6. Start using their favorite civic.

7. Don't encroach on their borders anymore than you have to.

Note that refusing to stop trade with an enemy hurts you, and that stopping trade at someone's request not only hurts you but the other guy will usually get mad enough not to talk to you for a while.

Its a bit hard to get permanent alliances going, but then again it should be. You're probably going to have to go out of your way going to bat for a civ to get them to like you enough.

Also some civs are more enthusiastic about some things than others. For saladin for example just being the same religion is generally enough to get you close to an alliance.

I think diplomacy is much improved in this version. I have had no trouble forming an early alliance with my brothers of the Buddhist faith, the Germans and trading with them. Eventually we got a defensive pact and joined forces twice against the Greeks who were sandwiched between us. I found it impossible to get the Romans to do anything for me though. They were Pleased, but also Confucian which seemed to make it difficult. I don't think the AI will form alliances or attack your enemy unless they are at Friendly level.

I've had civs that were willing to go to war with me vs other civs, its just not a common thing because as mentioned earlier would you just randomly go to war over nothing because someone asked you to? Occasionally though if you watch for it the opportunity for a 'partition' of another country will be there.

Just randomly giving another civ stuff doesn't help that much either. Things to do if you want to improve your relations with other civs:

1. Convert them to your religion. Requires a lot of cities of your religion in their country.

2. Open borders with them.

3. Start a trade/trades with them. The more stuff the better.

4. Give them stuff when they ask for it. Gives a nice +1 every time you do it.

5. Go to war with enemies that they are at war with.

6. Start using their favorite civic.

7. Don't encroach on their borders anymore than you have to.

Note that refusing to stop trade with an enemy hurts you, and that stopping trade at someone's request not only hurts you but the other guy will usually get mad enough not to talk to you for a while.

Its a bit hard to get permanent alliances going, but then again it should be. You're probably going to have to go out of your way going to bat for a civ to get them to like you enough.

Also some civs are more enthusiastic about some things than others. For saladin for example just being the same religion is generally enough to get you close to an alliance.


Thanks, Dracleath. I'll try to play diplomatically by those guidelines and see how it goes.

I also noticed... the AI never gives me anything as a gift. I'm not asking for big shiny new techs or citeis or heaping piles of gold, but maybe an AI that wants to be friends might thow a little gold my way, or hand off an old tech that I didn't bother to research. the only time they ever give you things is for a peace treaty when you're about to smash their capital.

This is yet another instance of old Civ III ideas not working in Civ IV.

Welcome to a better diplomacy system.

Better... I will reserve judgement, different, sure.

So, I've got a brewing political war, and both sides regularly ask me to stop trading with the other. I keep trading with both sides and they're fine with that for now. If war breaks out, they'll ask me to join them. I don't want to join them. I just want to trade with them. Why would I start a war with someone who's providing me with two happiness resources and not even near me?

Why should I expect the AIs to do it?

Exactly. I expect an ally to ask me for help, someone who is at least pleased/friendly. But why would an annoyed civ ask ME for help against a Friendly civ, then dock my relations even further when I say no. No logic, no rhyme, no reason. Friendly Civs, same religion... declare war for no apparent reason, has happened several times. Think of us waking up in the morning and going, hey lets invade England! There should be a HUGE penalty for doing that, to the point the rest of the AI's hate the perputrator making it easier to gain allies against the backstabber.

Overall, the AI's ask to often for things they know your never going to give, further lowering your relations. They can ask to trade with you for a tech, you can decline, in the same turn do the agreement, and you still get docked.

The new diplomacy system has issues. It is better in some respects then Civ III, but lacking in others.

The ONLY way I have found so far to avoid unwanted wars is to have a decent to massive sized army, otherwise anyone, friendly to annoyed will just declare war on you to take what they want.

The AI will gift you things if you ask for them and they like you.

And of course the ai is going to war with you if you just have like 1 archer defending your cities in the modern age. Wouldn't you?

I think one of the big things people are encountering is that the AIs gang up on anyone that gets too powerful or far ahead. I've had this happen to me twice; everyone is fine while power is being shared equally, but as soon as I pull ahead in terms of techs, diplomacy with the other major powers goes down the crapper.

Another thing is that it was said a lot pre-release that the devs wanted the AIs to drag the player towards one politcal bloc or another. What people may be doing - and I'm certainly guilty of this - is trying to play on both sides of the game, and you end up just pissing everyone off.

On the other hand, I think that there's an oversight in the diplomacy system; the AI doesn't take into account what the player thinks of them. I've never had the AI gift me something to try and get on my good side, so they'd have some leverage later on. And they're not prepared to try and pull themselves out of an obvious downward spiral, or let the player pull them out of a downwards spiral.

On the other hand, I think that there's an oversight in the diplomacy system; the AI doesn't take into account what the player thinks of them. I've never had the AI gift me something to try and get on my good side, so they'd have some leverage later on. And they're not prepared to try and pull themselves out of an obvious downward spiral, or let the player pull them out of a downwards spiral.

yes it would work with players who actually remember these things but to most people (read: warmongers) it's far too easy to accept gifts and backstab later when the opportunity arises. You can't pretend the AI are humans, they still have to be programmed so the human player won't take advantage of their sense of fairness, which frankly works against them.

Another thing is that it was said a lot pre-release that the devs wanted the AIs to drag the player towards one politcal bloc or another. What people may be doing - and I'm certainly guilty of this - is trying to play on both sides of the game, and you end up just pissing everyone off.

I think this is very true, azurefx. I've been trying to avoid the conflicts between the various civilizations (In addition to being the most powerful civilization) and my friends are lukewarm and my enemies crop up everywhere. I've been in a series of wars none of which I started and one following on the heels of the other. Every time I force one civilization to make peace, another declares war... sometimes they'll do so right in the middle of their war with another player...

I was in a war against the Greeks along with the French and the Egyptians. I'd captured one Greek city, and the French were passing on their way to the next one, and I guess decided they liked me even less than the Greeks and declared war on me and immediately began attacking my captured Greek city... (And then took it down in spite of its being defended by SAM Infantry with longbowman and cavalry... but that's another complaint).

So yes, I could see this being that they've already basically divided the AIs from the get-go and you have to pick a side... That said, the decisions are made far too early on... I was still getting snubbed by rejecting proposals made two millenia earlier when I had a much greater need for their enemy. Secondly, the combat system is such that you really don't even want to be the number one player because it just doesn't pay to be both diplomatically isolated and using modern units that seem to be about as effective as the ancient ones.

Still, I think the idea of two groups emerging is more fun than the Civ3 Grab Bag where whenever a war broke out, the stronger power immediately got all of the others to declare war on the weakest guy, dismantle him... wash, rinse and repeat with the next weakest guy.

I almost never had a situation where you had two rather equally balanced alliances unless I was one of the members and had orchestrated it that way.