This post has now been edited appropriately. If you wish to edit some world sizes I've made this a little easier to understand than of having to read through the entire thread. :)

To edit XML files:

1. Make a backup of the original file.

2. Open up the file with either Wordpad or Notepad.

How to change/add map sizes...

To edit existing map sizes:

1. Open "CIV4WorldInfo.xml" file located in your "C:\Program Files\Firaxis Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 4\Assets\XML\GameInfo" folder.

2. Choose the existing map size you would like to change and find the appropriate tags to edit the grid heighth and width:

"<iGridWidth>32</iGridWidth>
<iGridHeight>20</iGridHeight>"

*Each grid cell consists of 4 tiles (plots), so a 32x20 map grid is actually 128x80 plots.

3. Enter desired grid values. I would recommend keeping the ratio to or around 1:6. Some people have not had problems throwing in random numbers, however, I have experienced crashes and lockups when trying to load a map that strays too far from this ratio.

4. Save the file and test it out.

Creating your own map from scratch involves a little more editing if you want it to appear a little more authentic.

To create a new map size:

1. Open "CIV4WorldInfo.xml" file located in your "C:\Program Files\Firaxis Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 4\Assets\XML\GameInfo" folder.

2. Copy an already existing map between the worldinfo tags (<worldinfo>bunch of text</worldinfo>)...


<WorldInfo>
<Type>WORLDSIZE_HUGE</Type>
<Description>TXT_KEY_WORLD_HUGE</Description>
<Help>TXT_KEY_WORLD_HUGE_HELP</Help>
<iDefaultPlayers>11</iDefaultPlayers>
<iUnitNameModifier>0</iUnitNameModifier>
<iTargetNumCities>6</iTargetNumCities>
<iNumFreeBuildingBonuses>7</iNumFreeBuildingBonuses>
<iBuildingClassPrereqModifier>100</iBuildingClassPrereqModifier>
<iMaxConscriptModifier>75</iMaxConscriptModifier>
<iWarWearinessModifier>-50</iWarWearinessModifier>
<iGridWidth>32</iGridWidth>
<iGridHeight>20</iGridHeight>
<iTerrainGrainChange>1</iTerrainGrainChange>
<iFeatureGrainChange>1</iFeatureGrainChange>
<iResearchPercent>150</iResearchPercent>
<iTradeProfitPercent>30</iTradeProfitPercent>
<iDistanceMaintenancePercent>100</iDistanceMaintenancePercent>
<iNumCitiesMaintenancePercent>15</iNumCitiesMaintenancePercent>
<iNumCitiesAnarchyPercent>5</iNumCitiesAnarchyPercent>
</WorldInfo>

...and then paste it below the one you copied:


<WorldInfo>
<Type>WORLDSIZE_HUGE</Type>
<Description>TXT_KEY_WORLD_HUGE</Description>
<Help>TXT_KEY_WORLD_HUGE_HELP</Help>
<iDefaultPlayers>11</iDefaultPlayers>
<iUnitNameModifier>0</iUnitNameModifier>
<iTargetNumCities>6</iTargetNumCities>
<iNumFreeBuildingBonuses>7</iNumFreeBuildingBonuses>
<iBuildingClassPrereqModifier>100</iBuildingClassPrereqModifier>
<iMaxConscriptModifier>75</iMaxConscriptModifier>
<iWarWearinessModifier>-50</iWarWearinessModifier>
<iGridWidth>32</iGridWidth>
<iGridHeight>20</iGridHeight>
<iTerrainGrainChange>1</iTerrainGrainChange>
<iFeatureGrainChange>1</iFeatureGrainChange>
<iResearchPercent>150</iResearchPercent>
<iTradeProfitPercent>30</iTradeProfitPercent>
<iDistanceMaintenancePercent>100</iDistanceMaintenancePercent>
<iNumCitiesMaintenancePercent>15</iNumCitiesMaintenancePercent>
<iNumCitiesAnarchyPercent>5</iNumCitiesAnarchyPercent>
</WorldInfo>
<WorldInfo>
<Type>WORLDSIZE_HUGE</Type>
<Description>TXT_KEY_WORLD_HUGE</Description>
<Help>TXT_KEY_WORLD_HUGE_HELP</Help>
<iDefaultPlayers>11</iDefaultPlayers>
<iUnitNameModifier>0</iUnitNameModifier>
<iTargetNumCities>6</iTargetNumCities>
<iNumFreeBuildingBonuses>7</iNumFreeBuildingBonuses>
<iBuildingClassPrereqModifier>100</iBuildingClassPrereqModifier>
<iMaxConscriptModifier>75</iMaxConscriptModifier>
<iWarWearinessModifier>-50</iWarWearinessModifier>
<iGridWidth>32</iGridWidth>
<iGridHeight>20</iGridHeight>
<iTerrainGrainChange>1</iTerrainGrainChange>
<iFeatureGrainChange>1</iFeatureGrainChange>
<iResearchPercent>150</iResearchPercent>
<iTradeProfitPercent>30</iTradeProfitPercent>
<iDistanceMaintenancePercent>100</iDistanceMaintenancePercent>
<iNumCitiesMaintenancePercent>15</iNumCitiesMaintenancePercent>
<iNumCitiesAnarchyPercent>5</iNumCitiesAnarchyPercent>
</WorldInfo>

3 Edit the grid & heighth values:

"<iGridWidth>32</iGridWidth>
<iGridHeight>20</iGridHeight>"

As mentioned earlier, cach grid cell consists of 4 tiles (plots), and I recommend keeping the ratio to or around 1:6.

4. Change the first three tags to the desired name of your map size. Example, change this:

<Type>WORLDSIZE_HUGE</Type>
<Description>TXT_KEY_WORLD_HUGE</Description>
<Help>TXT_KEY_WORLD_HUGE_HELP</Help>

to this:

<Type>WORLDSIZE_OMG</Type>
<Description>TXT_KEY_WORLD_OMG</Description>
<Help>TXT_KEY_WORLD_OMG_HELP</Help>

5. Other tags are optional if you want to change them or not. I would suggest making a few small changes to keep them proportionate to the other map sizes. Just glance through at the map sizes and take note of what tags increase or decrease, while keeping the size of your map in mind.

6. Save file and close.

7. Now navigate to your "XML\Text" folder and open the "CIV4GameText_Help.xml" file.

8. Scroll about 1/4 of the way down until you see this:

<TEXT>
<Tag>TXT_KEY_WORLDSIZE_HUGE_HELP</Tag>
<English>If you are looking for a truly epic experience, this map size is for you. It has room for you and 10 opponents.</English>
<French>Si vous voulez vivre une véritable épopée, cette carte est faite pour vous. Elle est immense et oppose 10 adversaires.</French>
<German>Wenn Sie eine unvergessliche Erfahrung suchen, ist diese Karte Ihre erste Wahl. Immerhin treffen Sie hier auf bis zu 10 Gegner!</German>
<Italian>Se sei alla ricerca di un'esperienza davvero epica, la dimensione di questa mappa è quello che fa per te, poiché oltre a te c'è posto per altri dieci rivali.</Italian>
<Spanish>Si queréis una experiencia épica de verdad, el tamaño de este mapa es lo que andáis buscando. Tiene espacio suficiente para vos y para otros diez rivales.</Spanish>
</TEXT>

Copy the above and then paste it right below it.

9. Now edit the line:
"<Tag>TXT_KEY_WORLDSIZE_HUGE_HELP</Tag>"

and change the name of the map to your new map name (as in this example "OMG"):
"<Tag>TXT_KEY_WORLDSIZE_OMG_HELP</Tag>"

10. Save file and close.

11. Now open up the "CIV4GameTextInfos_Objects.xml" file (located in XML\Text).

If you don't want to scroll all the way through this large file to find the right thing to copy, I'll just tell you what to add. I don't believe it will make a difference where the new code is added, just as long as it's in there.

12. Add the following to this file (without quotations of course and remember "OMG" is an example):

<TEXT>
<Tag>TXT_KEY_WORLD_OMG</Tag>
<English>OMG</English>
</TEXT>

13. Save and close.

Finally, this last bit will make it things much better looking when setting up a game. ;)

14. Navigate to your "XML\Interface" folder and open the "CIV4WorldPickerInfos.xml" file.

15. As you scroll through this file you'll see these lines of code added under a few of the different world types:

<Sizes>
<Size>1.0</Size> <!-- Random -->
<Size>0.3</Size> <!-- Duel -->
<Size>0.6</Size> <!-- Tiny -->
<Size>0.8</Size> <!-- Small -->
<Size>1.0</Size> <!-- Standard -->
<Size>1.4</Size> <!-- Large -->
<Size>2.0</Size> <!-- Huge -->
</Sizes>

The "<Size>x.x</Size>" tag just tells you how big (or small) the world will appear on the world setup screen. So all we're going to do is add one line for our "OMG" map which we'll assume bigger than huge. So...

16. Add in the size, like this:

<Sizes>
<Size>1.0</Size> <!-- Random -->
<Size>0.3</Size> <!-- Duel -->
<Size>0.6</Size> <!-- Tiny -->
<Size>0.8</Size> <!-- Small -->
<Size>1.0</Size> <!-- Standard -->
<Size>1.4</Size> <!-- Large -->
<Size>2.0</Size> <!-- Huge -->
<Size>2.4</Size> <!-- OMG -->
</Sizes>

Add this new line for each time you see this list of sizes under each map (aDebugMap, Archipelago, Continents, Lakes, Pangaea, Ice_Age, and Terra)

17. Save and close.

It's now complete. It seems like a lot of work for a simple thing, but it's easy and quick once you know what you're doing. Start a game to make sure it all works correctly and that you have an option for a new map size. Keep in mind that the bigger the map you make the longer it will take to load and enter Worldbuilder.

:king:

low, i'm trying to figure out your issue, but i haven't reproduced it yet -- i just tried 38 x 24, and it worked no problem... (replacing the numbers in the existing Huge)

can you try these, and theng ive me an example of numbers that don't work?

There might be a certain ratio we have to meet...

addendum: 38x24 may have issues with Worldbuilder, need to test further...

So far I've tried 40x28, 40x30, 38x28, and a few others.

I'll try out 38x24 and see what happens.

I've done a little more research into the world sizes. I'm paying particular attention to the ratio between width and height:

10 6 1.666666667
13 8 1.625
16 10 1.6
21 13 1.615384615
26 16 1.625
32 20 1.6


So the default game maps never stray from about 1.6.

With this in mind, 40 / 25 = 1.6, so if ratio is an issue, 40x25 should work. I'm giving it a try now.

Nice, Rayanth. I just tried 40x25 and played a few turns. Takes a little bit to load at start, but at least it worked. It did freeze up when I tried to access the World Builder though.

well, 40x25 loads the map, but WorldBuilder won't give me access to the whole map - I don't know if that's by a design flaw in world builder, or if it's the standard for a brand new Huge-ish game... input?

Meanwhile, this 40x25 game put me in an awesome spot, so i'm gonna actually play it out =)

Started on a 1-square jut-out into teh ocean, with a river on one side, my warriors one step away from a goody hut, deer adjacent to my city spot, and crabs also adjacent to my city spot.... wheat is two squares away.

it's definitely running slow. Civ4 is taking up PM of 300 megs, and VM of almost 600 megs with this 40x25 map loaded, and this is still turn 1. NOT for the faint of heart (or lacking in computer power)

OK I just built stonehenge to center my worldmap and tried WorldBuilder again -- the whole map DOES show up in worldbuilder... you just have to know (in game context) how big the worl dis before worldbuilder will show it all. I suspect the cheat-code posted in a sticky by Soren will fix this... dunno for sure.

However, for a 40x25 map, everything works. Worldbuilder IS giving me full access to the map, after i discovered stonehenge. it is beginning to run QUITE slow, hoever, so I would not say doing maps this huge is wise.

My basic system specs:

Athlon 2800+
radeon 9600/256mb
512mb of memory

as of right now, this Civ4 game is taking up 650 megs of virtual memory, and just shy of 300 megs of physical memory. it's HUGE.

Also, the zoomed-out Globe view of the map is somewhat distorted. it's possible we'll have to modify the zoom levels for this somehow, or something. the world looks like kind of egg-shaped.

Thanks for your detective work Raynath, I'll certainly be trying that configuration for myself.

Having any slowdown in the standard huge size? Seems a bit odd that performance would deteriorate so quickly with an empty world map. I think the 1.6 ratio is right though. Try 22/35 and 23/37, see how they perform.

Well, I've tried every suggestion you guys have given and they all run fine for me. Even at the 40x25 I experienced no slowdown, but then again I only played 50-60 turns. My only complaint would be that it takes longer to load at start. :p

(Ahtlon64 3400+, 6800 Ultra 256MB, 1GB DDR RAM)

I think it's safe to assume that map sizes must stick to or near the 1:6 ratio. Great call on that Rayanth.

I have decided to create a new world size called "Gigantic" instead of editing the huge map, and I went with the 37x23. It isn't a whole lot bigger than huge, because I anticipate it being a little slower 200-400 turns down the road so I didn't want to create a trully 'gigantic' map just yet. I created the strings in the other text files so it looks and feels a little authentic when choosing it when starting a game.

However, there is still a problem when trying to enter Worldbuilder (without building Stonehenge of course). I predict that's a problem we won't be able to fix until the SDK comes out. Maybe I'm wrong, I don't know. Also, one other minor thing I'm looking into is changing the size of the world that's displayed when choosing "Gigantic" on the setup screen. I haven't found anything relating to that yet.

Ok, I figured out how to change the size of the world when selecting map size on the setup screen.

You would have to edit "CIV4WorldPickerInfos.xml" file located in the "interface" folder and you'll find a section like this:

<MapName>Archipelago</MapName>
<ModelFile>Art/Interface/Screens/WorldPicker/Globe.nif</ModelFile>
- <Sizes>
<Size>1.0</Size>
- <!-- Random -->
<Size>0.3</Size>
- <!-- Duel -->
<Size>0.6</Size>
- <!-- Tiny -->
<Size>0.8</Size>
- <!-- Small -->
<Size>1.0</Size>
- <!-- Standard -->
<Size>1.4</Size>
- <!-- Large -->
<Size>2.0</Size>
- <!-- Huge -->

All I had to do was add another size for the bigger map at the bottom, like so:

<MapName>Archipelago</MapName>
<ModelFile>Art/Interface/Screens/WorldPicker/Globe.nif</ModelFile>
- <Sizes>
<Size>1.0</Size>
- <!-- Random -->
<Size>0.3</Size>
- <!-- Duel -->
<Size>0.6</Size>
- <!-- Tiny -->
<Size>0.8</Size>
- <!-- Small -->
<Size>1.0</Size>
- <!-- Standard -->
<Size>1.4</Size>
- <!-- Large -->
<Size>2.0</Size>
- <!-- Huge -->
<Size>2.4</Size>
- <!-- Gigantic -->

This would have to be done for each map type located in the XML file. It's not a major find. But it does make it look a lot better when you're setting up the game.

EDIT: It seems after these changes to the Worldpicker file that I'm able to go into Worldbuilder without any problems now. I've tried it a couple of different times and it works fine. :)

awesome, good find =) But does it fix the egg-shaped-world when fully zoomed out during a game using that map size?

If you guys want to try it out here you go...

I've put the 4 files in the appropriate folders for now, but leaving it up to you whether you decide to overwrite your default files and do it as a mod. If you do overwrite, remember to make a backup. :D

EDIT: File removed. Moving it to the correct folder.

awesome, good find =) But does it fix the egg-shaped-world when fully zoomed out during a game using that map size?

I didn't really take note. I just tested to see if I could get into Worldbuilder. I'll go try it now though.

EDIT: Looks fine to me.

Meanwhile, this 40x25 game put me in an awesome spot, so i'm gonna actually play it out =)

Started on a 1-square jut-out into teh ocean, with a river on one side, my warriors one step away from a goody hut, deer adjacent to my city spot, and crabs also adjacent to my city spot.... wheat is two squares away.
You've got crabs!! :eek: :crazyeye: :lol:

"I have decided to create a new world size called "Gigantic" instead of editing the huge map, and I went with the 37x23. It isn't a whole lot bigger than huge"

isnt the huge map 128plots X 80Plots?

isnt the huge map 128plots X 80Plots?

I don't know. I didn't count 'em. :p

I'm just going by the grid size.

oh, well looking at the map file in note huge map is 128X80

oh, well looking at the map file in note huge map is 128X80

I haven't poked at actual tile sizes yet, i was gonna count when i explored my 40x25 -- it should be noted that in the map sizes XML, the dimensions are not measured in tiles, but some other unit of measure.

in Civ3, Huge was 128x80 I think... I seem to recall hearing that Huge in 4, was bigger than Huge in 3.

If I remember correctly, I believe I seen that each grid square consists of 4 tiles in one of the .py files. So, if we do the math, this appears to be true and Liquid-Fire is correct.

Huge: 32x20 So... 32x4=128, 20x4=80

anyone try other map size which bigger than 40*25?

You're probably not going to want anything bigger, especially if you plan on sticking around to play the 1800's, 1900's and beyond. Things are gonna get slow, I can assure you.

But to answer your question, I haven't tried anything bigger. I don't think I'm going to either. I don't want to play that long of a game just to experience the 3-minute wait in-between turns that I predicted would happen 6 hours earlier when I started the game. :p

I recently attempted to create the largest map possible by incrimenting the <iGridHeight> by five and using the 1.6 ratio given by Raynath. I was able to get my maps working up to 35 x 56. At that point, the game would crash about half way through the loading process. I should also add that the load took about 15-20 minutes before crashing on my computer.:sad:

I would be interested to know if this is only my computer causing the game to crash or if this is in fact the maximum size the game's engine is able to handle.

This is somewhat dissapointing because the map size is well below the maximum map size of Civ III. Multiplying the map ratio by 4, this size comes to 140 x 224. The Civ III max size was 362 x 362.:p

I recently attempted to create the largest map possible by incrimenting the <iGridHeight> by five and using the 1.6 ratio given by Raynath. I was able to get my maps working up to 35 x 56. At that point, the game would crash about half way through the loading process. I should also add that the load took about 15-20 minutes before crashing on my computer.:sad:

I would be interested to know if this is only my computer causing the game to crash or if this is in fact the maximum size the game's engine is able to handle.

This is somewhat dissapointing because the map size is well below the maximum map size of Civ III. Multiplying the map ratio by 4, this size comes to 140 x 224. The Civ III max size was 362 x 362.:p


actually, Huge, if low is correct, is the same as Huge in Civ3, 128x80 tiles (32x20 * 4)

The "Mega" i played with was 40x25, so a whopping 160 x 100 tiles, and i've played that game up to 200 BC so far. No issues. However tabbing out of the game for more than a few seconds will result in a swap dump, which take supwards of about 10 minutes to bring back to memory for the game to run again!

Anything larger than huge is NOT recommended on lesser hardware. I'm starting to get a little annoyed at how long my 40x25 takes to load up, and that's with the following system specs:

Athlon 2800+
512mb of memory (the 40x25 took 300 megs physical memory, and 600 Virtual! nearly a GIG of memory for one map!)
Radeon 9600/256mb video card.

on ANYTHING lesser than my system specs I do NOT recommend any map larger than Huge. If you have something more powerful, particularly in the processor and memory quota, then give larger games a shot. I suspect crashes are a result of memory issues during map generation.

using the gigantic (37x23) map from low (thx btw), with a longer gameplay, well...

my A64 3200+ - 1Gb mem - 6800GT is very slow since the modern era... I mean not only a 3mn wait between turns, that I can handle with a good book at hand, but even on the normal view it's slow...

I'm playing windowed, maybe it would be better to play full screen WITHOUT alt-tabbing at all :D

Hi all. Quick question.

I want to create a slightly odd shaped map. Long and thin, not dis-similar to the shape of the British mainland. Can this be done? I'm thinking it will be a ratio of 5:1 (so for example 100 tiles in height, 20 tiles in width). If it can be done what's the highest I can go on the height? Ideally if i can go 500:100 that would be top...

I tried to use the tilt_axis map type but this does not give the right ratio and the poles are on the sides instead of at the top and bottom so this is no good to me.

Thanks for any advice you can give.

Just to let yall know all that ratio stuff isn't necessary. I've been running 80x60 maps for several games now. Works great and 14 civs can get near 7 cities each easily, I average 8 to 10 cities on this map. The first number is the width and I think it could push 100 or a little more. The 60 is pushing the height, but, I still think it could take 20 more points also. I'm guessing 120 x 80 is near max size map. I also play PANGEA maps, so, that makes a difference also in land mass vs water. Rather have lotsa land than water anyways in my games.

You guys having lag issues and all probably have some system issues. I just have a 2.4ghz Intel processor with 1gig ram and sound blaster 5.1 gamer sound card and Geforce Ultra 5900 video card. My virtual memory is 2500 and I've only seen the game hit around 880mb used so far on the chart. Works great and runs smoothly, I haven't seen any slow down at all. But, I'm using single unit graphics and health bar as far as my only graphics option change.

actually, Huge, if low is correct, is the same as Huge in Civ3, 128x80 tiles (32x20 * 4)

Actually, I am referring to the hard limit of 362 x 362. This was the largest size map the Civ III editor would allow you to build. Since I have scenarios I was hoping to convert from Civ III to Civ IV that are at this limit, if I cannot find a way to up the map size this will not be possible.

I also tested a few maps disregarding the ratio of 1.6 to 1. This works fine. However, if you scroll to the world view, and roll around the map you will notice a few graphic glitches in the clouds and how the terrain is drawn. However, I haven’t noticed any negative affect on the game by disregarding the ratio.

Since each grid cell in Civ4 consists of 4 plots, then 362/4= 90.5

Go ahead, someone make a map that's 90.5x90.5. :lol:

Hi, I haven't have the game yet so my question may appear stupid. :p

Can someone explain why in WorldPickerInfos.xml, gigantic map is keyed in as 2.4 times that of standard map; yet, CIV4WorldInfo.xml, the size is 40x25 (which is not 2.4 times that of standard)?

How do the two things correlate?

The "2.4" setting in the WorldPickerInfos file makes the map appear bigger on the setup screen in relation to the other map sizes. It has nothing at all to do with the actual gameplay or the actual 40x25 size of the map.

The "2.4" setting in the WorldPickerInfos file makes the map appear bigger on the setup screen in relation to the other map sizes. It has nothing at all to do with the actual gameplay or the actual 40x25 size of the map.

Thanks for the clarification. It makes sense now. :D

I'm looking at creating a 150X180 scenario map. There's a lot of mountains and ocean, though, and I want to make forests unsettlable. Any idea if these will effect how long the scenario will take to load... I'm hoping all of the unusable terrain will make this large map act like a much smaller map in loading... Or does an empty super-gigantic map load as quickly as a normal one... Anyone notice this when using the maps? I don't have the game, yet, that's why I'm asking...

Thank you.

It will still definately take longer to load. The more plots you have, the longer it's gonna take.

However, it might be a little quicker in regards to the time it takes in between turns to other larger maps later in the game, since there's a lot more unsettlable land.

First post has now been edited for simplification.

Ok well if you want to read this thread I made over at Apolyton I have found out through trial and error that the max number of tiles you can have on the Y axis is between 125 and 127.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=141652

This means that theoretically you should be able to have around 180 on the X axis, though obviously I'm just guessing this.

180 x 125(ish) then. Definately the Y axis is correct anyway. :)

Ok well if you want to read this thread I made over at Apolyton I have found out through trial and error that the max number of tiles you can have on the Y axis is between 125 and 127.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=141652

This means that theoretically you should be able to have around 180 on the X axis, though obviously I'm just guessing this.

180 x 125(ish) then. Definately the Y axis is correct anyway. :)

Interesting. Thanks for the info.

Anyone know what this line actually represents?

<iNumFreeBuildingBonuses>7</iNumFreeBuildingBonuses>

I have a new PC thats a AMD fx57 with 2gb Ram & 7800gtx and takes about 5 min to load the 40x25, I also made a 48x30 and it worked ok but took like 15min to load and WB worked ok but changing terrian types takes a LONG time and for some reason the world is 99% of the time all square and the top and bottom are 10% of the map (ICE) is all. No water at all. I tried all settings and wanted a 1 land mass map.

And tips on this
Fenryial

map-gen scripts might need some work for larger maps....

in the meantime, generate a large map, then edit it. the WorldBuilderSave files I hear are plain-text. You might be able to manually build the world map you want that way.

Due to the plain-text-ness, I'm sure someone's working on a more intuitive worldmap editor, so keep an eye out for such a thing as well

Low (or anyone else) - Where does the added text show up in the game? I don't see any Civilopedia references for game map sizes...

You guys - I just discovered this totally screws up several map types - most notably Pangaea. Try your new map sizes with Pangaea - and you'll discover there's no ocean zones whatsoever.

Low (or anyone else) - Where does the added text show up in the game? I don't see any Civilopedia references for game map sizes...

I honestly don't know. I just copied all the text for the map size to match the rest of them. :p

You guys - I just discovered this totally screws up several map types - most notably Pangaea. Try your new map sizes with Pangaea - and you'll discover there's no ocean zones whatsoever.

Interesting. I just started a Pangaea map and I haven't quite got to building Caravels or other ocean-bound ships yet. But I'll look into it now. As for other map types having problems I wouldn't know. I only play Continents, Acrhipelago, and Pangaea (my first time now) and haven't seen any problems yet. I assumed there would be no problem with other map types. Maybe I was wrong. So...

Anyone else confirm this? Anyone having problems with other map types?

Yes Pangaea is no water what so ever when I increase the map size! I think maybe 2 makes out of 20 so far were more normal looking but it was the same exact map twice with a LOT of water when I had ocean set to low.

Fen

This is worrisome. There's a problem with the random map generator. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=135551

Thanks for the post jpinard :) I will play some more. Ive been trying and getting the same exact map 5 times in a row. I never changed the ini file yet.

Fen

I've discovered the random seed generator isn't the problem. It's a scripting issue. The best I can tell, is the data from the CIV4WorldInfo.xml is failing some checks when its sent to the random map generator file CvMapGeneratorUtil.py and the ocean squares are all being overwritten with land tiles as a consequence. I think that's why it takes so long to generate the game... it keeps going back over and over again.

As another test, Ice Age works great and generates quickly... so it's definately due to the python script. I'll go through each map type and see what works and doesn't work.

Hi there. I had a thought that perhaps the limit of map size is not defined by the scale (1.6:1) or even by having a maximum Y axis (125ish) or a maximum X axis (not sure yet) but in fact by the number of tiles\plots the map contains.

In the WBS file there is a line as follows,

num plots written=7875

That's the map for the mod I'm currently working on.

Perhaps the maximum size is determined by this value rather than by any other factor?

That could be true Feet. I will look at that. What is that file called ?
It says Num Plots written=7875. What map size is that?
So a 32x20 map would be?

Fenryial

It's a Civ4worldbuildersave file (WBS, all scenarios will have one). Open it up in notepad and you can see the line there.

The map I've made (and it works) is 63 (X axis) x 125 (Y axis) (that's tiles btw).

So a 32x20 would only be 640 tiles. :) Quite small.

125x80 map = 10000 tiles. I might try that later on and see if it works.

Actually, I think that's wrong Feet. I think he was referring to the grid size of the default Huge map. Remember each grid cell consists of 4 plots. Since that's true then the Huge 32x20 map is more than 640 plots.

32x20 grid cells = 128x80 plots = 10,240 total plots. Though that sounds like too many.

Ahhh I didn't know that. My apologies. Why are we talking in grids instead of plots? :p

There's an easy way to check the huge map low. Start a huge map game, then enter worldbulder. Save it straight away then exit th game.

Browse to the WBS you just created and open it in Notepad adn look for the line I posted. It will tell you how many plots it has there.

I always say grids because that's the number I would enter into the WorldInfo file when creating or editing map sizes.

I just checked out the WBS and got this:

"world size=WORLDSIZE_HUGE
climate=CLIMATE_TEMPERATE
sealevel=SEALEVEL_LOW
num plots written=10000"

So I guess I was close. :p

Low is right, I remember the HUGE map (32x20) is much larger than 640. I get 10,240 as well :) So on a huge map if I count each single square I should count 10,240?

Fenryial

So on a huge map if I count each single square I should count 10,240?

Fenryial

In theory, yes. Go ahead, count 'em and report back. I'll wait. :D

So if thats in the WBS file, that I assume means thats after you generate the map. So if I did a Larger like (48x30) map. It should read about 23,040. If it doesnt I guess I should change. But that wont fix or make fixes to the no water effect I get when making Giant maps.

Fenryial

Yeah, give me a few hours on that one low.. Ya know I was kinda kidding. I think I was. lol

Fenryial

Ok well has anyway managed to make a map with more than 10,000 plots on it?

I might see if I can make a 120 x 100 map, see if it works.

I'm interested to see what's gonna be fixed with this map generation issue...I certianly hope it gets patched and the problem with missing ocean tiles gets corrected. Until then, using larger maps with certain world types will remain pretty much pointless. I hope it corrects the load times as well.

Feet, I haven't. Maybe 10,000 is the maximum limit.

Maybe that is correct... If 10,000 is the max size. When I/We make these maps over 10,000 squares it kinda messes up the random map generator. I hope that is fixed. I hope they are aware and want to fix it. I love GIANT maps and want to see it work well. I just could never understand why a map just 1% larger than huge would take so long to load???

Fenryial

I have just made a flat map (no globe) of Great Britain and Ireland...

It has over 15000 plots on it (122 x 125 plots, or 30.5 x 31.25 grids if you swing that way).

:D

I have also been playing making maps at 48-25. The random thing always makes them with no water for Pangea maps. I went in the ini and changed the map generator from 0 to other numbers to test. I found that 3 and 38 gave me a good map but about 15 others I tried were all bad. If I made a huge map (32x20) with map 3 it looks the same but with only 10000 plots compared to the 19200 with the other map size. Can anyone else try this and see if 3 and 38 gives a good GIANT map or is it just me. It still takes a while to generate. When I tried a 64x40 map it just crashes to desktop after 20min or so. But when Im on a large map thats 19200 plots it takes a long time to change or add land types for some reason. I can add things like units and resources no problem?

Hey Feet where can I get your map?

Thanks
Fenryial

It's just a tester really so I'll upload and post it in the Maps folder above, it's not very detailed either really. It only has Welsh and Scottish mountains as defining features. Apart from that it's completly flat grassland the rest of the way.

I haven't tried modifying it in the world builder, I just opened it so I can't report if it takes a long time to edit resources\terrain etc.

Look out for it in a bit.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=138946

There you go Fenryial. Just for you. ;)

Thanks alot, I got it :)

Fenryial

You guys - I just discovered this totally screws up several map types - most notably Pangaea. Try your new map sizes with Pangaea - and you'll discover there's no ocean zones whatsoever.

This is because Pangaea uses "custom" grid sizes. Every map in the game that is not using the default grid sizes is hardcoded to whatever custom sizes are in place.

You guys are probably going about this the hard way. What I would recommend is for you to go for larger map sizes from the map script end, and not from the XML end.

For instance, for Pangaea, open the script in your Python editor (IDLE will do, and it's free with Python itself, which is also free -- www.python.org) and then save a copy under a new name, such as "Pangaea_Enormous.py". Then go to the map grids block of code, shown in the attachment, and edit the grids to whatever sizes you want.

If you are hungry for gigantinormous maps, you'll never play Duel and Tiny anyway, right? So no loss if you simply increase the numbers for all sizes. So put in the values you want, save the map, and launch. No XML work, no "loading of mods", just go to Custom game, choose your new script, set the number of players, map size, etc, and launch.

You will have to do this for every map that you want to play on altered sizes, but it's easier than messing with the XML when it comes to the map scripts. You don't even have to overwrite the default maps. You can make as many extra maps as you like, as long as each one has its own name.


- Sirian

Here, I threw one together for you as a sample.

Ok Sirian, what file is that you edited and where is that one located. I will get the editor, thats not a problem.

Fen

All the map scripts are in the PublicMaps folder.

Thanks Sirian. I knew there'd come a day when I needed to learn something besides Notepad :lol:

Sirian, I do have to ask though. In increasing the size of our playable world, don't 6you think we need to adjust these values accordingly?

<Type>WORLDSIZE_HUGE</Type>
<Description>TXT_KEY_WORLD_HUGE</Description>
<Help>TXT_KEY_WORLD_HUGE_HELP</Help>
<iDefaultPlayers>11</iDefaultPlayers>
<iUnitNameModifier>0</iUnitNameModifier>
<iTargetNumCities>6</iTargetNumCities>
<iNumFreeBuildingBonuses>7</iNumFreeBuildingBonuses>
<iBuildingClassPrereqModifier>100</iBuildingClassPrereqModifier>
<iMaxConscriptModifier>75</iMaxConscriptModifier>
<iWarWearinessModifier>-50</iWarWearinessModifier>
<iGridWidth>32</iGridWidth>
<iGridHeight>20</iGridHeight>
<iTerrainGrainChange>1</iTerrainGrainChange>
<iFeatureGrainChange>1</iFeatureGrainChange>
<iResearchPercent>150</iResearchPercent>
<iTradeProfitPercent>30</iTradeProfitPercent>
<iDistanceMaintenancePercent>100</iDistanceMaintenancePercent>
<iNumCitiesMaintenancePercent>15</iNumCitiesMaintenancePercent>
<iNumCitiesAnarchyPercent>5</iNumCitiesAnarchyPercent>

Thanks Sirian. I knew there'd come a day when I needed to learn something besides Notepad :lol:

Sirian, I do have to ask though. In increasing the size of our playable world, don't 6you think we need to adjust these values accordingly?

If you do, that will affect all of your maps. It's up to you.

I did what you gave us Sirian and it works great :) I got Python and edited my own .py files to how I liked and 100% of the time I got good maps now. HUGE but good. It did crash to desktop 5% of the time and I have 2gigs of ram with a AMD FX57 so I guess that doesnt matter much. If you know of a way to reset the high scores that would be great or the file to delete them. With your fix I can just edit the .py files and its much easier for BIG maps.
It still takes a while for a map to load but once it does the WB works fine, just takes long to change plots is all. But I can live with that.

Thanks again for your help :)
Fenryial

If you do, that will affect all of your maps. It's up to you.

Actually I've made additional sizes so it doesn't change the Firaxis defaults. I just used the "huge" script as an example. So I'll ask again... for maps larger than huge... do you think its'necessary to adjust some of these variables (noted above) to compensate for the larger map size? Or do you think it's actually better ("larger than huge" map with "huge' map's settings)?

Actually I've made additional sizes so it doesn't change the Firaxis defaults. I just used the "huge" script as an example. So I'll ask again... for maps larger than huge... do you think its'necessary to adjust some of these variables (noted above) to compensate for the larger map size? Or do you think it's actually better ("larger than huge" map with "huge' map's settings)?

There are some things that do not translate well to larger and larger maps. If you don't increase some of the math, the gameplay will be distorted. Some distortion is inevitable, though.

"Beyond Huge" maps are modders' territory now. You guys will have to sort out these questions on your own. Whatever is fun, that's a right answer. :) There may be more than one right answer available. :cooool:


- Sirian

I've been gone a couple of days and it's good to come back to some good news.

Thanks a lot Sirian. I (we) appreciate the info. :cool:

After trying this new method out, I'm not entirely happy with the results. I've tested this out with custom Pangaea, Archipelago, Continents, Custom_Continents, and Tilted_Axis map styles and I'm getting crashes during loading 80% of the time, no joke. To be exact, it's crashed 10 out of 13 attempts. :(

The previous way of doing it may be more work and make things a little more jumbled but it's a lot more reliable for me. And since I've already done all the XML work anyways, I'm gonna stick with it.

Yes it does crash.. Ive cleaned the cache out and seems to be better chance but still happens. This was on a 52,32 map I did. It was like 25,000 plots or so. I did get a few to work! And each one did look right, but the crashing I dont like :(

Fenryial

After trying this new method out, I'm not entirely happy with the results. I've tested this out with custom Pangaea, Archipelago, Continents, Custom_Continents, and Tilted_Axis map styles and I'm getting crashes during loading 80% of the time, no joke. To be exact, it's crashed 10 out of 13 attempts. :(

The previous way of doing it may be more work and make things a little more jumbled but it's a lot more reliable for me. And since I've already done all the XML work anyways, I'm gonna stick with it.

You probably have introduced Python errors in your editing. The syntax has to be exact.

In your config file, enable Python error messages. (You should do this for -any- kind of modding -- it would have told you where and why you were getting those "all land" maps, for instance.)

You are simply not going to affect map sizes on scripts (like Pangaea) that use custom grids via XML editing. One way or another, you have to touch Python to make those do different map sizes.

I recommend "Learning Python" by Lutz and Ascher as a textbook -- everything you need to know about Python programming to do about anything you want in Civ4.


- Sirian

You can definitely go above 10k total tiles. I build and run maps that are 125+ x 125 frequently. The issue with such massive maps really becomes one of unit movement rates. When a map is 125 tiles across, think about how long a unit with a 1move/turn capability takes to cover distances.

125 turns? ¬_¬

You probably have introduced Python errors in your editing. The syntax has to be exact.

In your config file, enable Python error messages. (You should do this for -any- kind of modding -- it would have told you where and why you were getting those "all land" maps, for instance.)

You are simply not going to affect map sizes on scripts (like Pangaea) that use custom grids via XML editing. One way or another, you have to touch Python to make those do different map sizes.

I recommend "Learning Python" by Lutz and Ascher as a textbook -- everything you need to know about Python programming to do about anything you want in Civ4.


- Sirian

It is exact... it has to be. How do I know that? Because I followed your instructions- the Pangaea map- I just copied the existing .py file, renamed it, and threw in a couple of new numbers for the Huge map, selected it in "Custom Game" options, just as you had described earlier and it still crashes at least 4 out of every 5 times. :confused:

I have touched no other .py files (other than the seperate ones for other map styles) and am using all default XML files at the moment. I get zero Python error messeges after enabling it.

THe only thing I did change with the Python editor in (only) Pangea map was the HUGE map to 52,32 from 32,16. That was the only data I chaged. And only to that map and I put the file in the custom directory. But mine doesnt crash 80% but maybe 15 to 20% of the time. Should I still keep them at that 1.6 ratio?

Fenryial

Ok, so I finally got a Pangaea map to load. Then I entered Worldbuilder and saw this...

http://webpages.charter.net/sgoessel/civ4pangaea.jpg

:eek: Any explanation as to why almost half of this "Pangaea" map is tiny islands? :confused:

There's a pangaea in the middle of that. :)

Pulling tiny islands on both sides is rare but possible. There aren't supposed to be that many, but there AREN'T that many on the normal map sizes.

I did warn you that some things won't translate perfectly to larger and larger maps. The only thing you can do is to keep modding until you are satisfied.


- Sirian

It is exact... it has to be. How do I know that? Because I followed your instructions- the Pangaea map- I just copied the existing .py file, renamed it, and threw in a couple of new numbers for the Huge map, selected it in "Custom Game" options, just as you had described earlier and it still crashes at least 4 out of every 5 times. :confused:

I have touched no other .py files (other than the seperate ones for other map styles) and am using all default XML files at the moment. I get zero Python error messeges after enabling it.

Well then there may be a ceiling, past which your machine will crash. I don't know. Some players are running maps even bigger than that with success, so I have no idea why yours would crash. I've tried to help point you in the right direction, but if you want to mod, you have to figure out most of this on your own, especially when you are venturing in to areas I haven't explored.


- Sirian

I do also get some islands kind of like that. I dont have a pic to show you but I do. If I want them to be in one I just use the world builder to link them. But its not a big deal. I just did 10 maps (52,32) and out of 10 it crashed 2x. It never crashes while making the maps only when loading after I saved them. But still like and average of 10% to 20% of the time. I have 2 gigs of ram so I am not sure what causes the crash.

Fenryial

There's a pangaea in the middle of that. :)

Pulling tiny islands on both sides is rare but possible. There aren't supposed to be that many, but there AREN'T that many on the normal map sizes.

I did warn you that some things won't translate perfectly to larger and larger maps. The only thing you can do is to keep modding until you are satisfied.


- Sirian

That's the first time I've seen a map that messed up. I do expect some oddities here and there and I have from the beginning. As long as they don't show up like that on a regular basis I'll be happy.

Well then there may be a ceiling, past which your machine will crash. I don't know. Some players are running maps even bigger than that with success, so I have no idea why yours would crash. I've tried to help point you in the right direction, but if you want to mod, you have to figure out most of this on your own, especially when you are venturing in to areas I haven't explored.

I've also run larger maps with a lot of success, but that's before I started taking your advice and changing values in the .py files. :p

Seriously though, I appreciate the insight. At least I'm learning something here. :)

I'll just keep playing around with values and see what happens.

Well then there may be a ceiling, past which your machine will crash. I don't know. Some players are running maps even bigger than that with success, so I have no idea why yours would crash. I've tried to help point you in the right direction, but if you want to mod, you have to figure out most of this on your own, especially when you are venturing in to areas I haven't explored.


- Sirian


Actually i think the problem is that maps bigger then 53x33(grids) requires about 2gb of ram. and if you dont have enough(more ram) then it crashes. it doesnt seem to like swap memory much. So basicly the limit is in the game(it requires extreme amount of resources for something that civ3 didnt require much resourcers for). I guess in 4-5yrs we can also play aprox 365x365(tiles) maps in civ4(like we could in civ3 through the civ3 editor) :(


Ive seen that sooome say they have 100x80 or similiar grids set in their xmlfiles. but from what ive discovered it seems like they have just started a game with maptypes that doesnt use that xmlfile for mapsizes(which isnt effected by that setting in the xml). so i would assume that the few others that "socalled have made it far beyond 53x33" ,that i havent spoken with, also have played on maps that doesnt used the edited gridsizes from xml.

However ive come across ALOT of users that have been sucessfull UPTO about 53x33, beyond that everyone have had crashes as far as ive know.
but maybe someone have 3-4gb of ram, and can test it:) (i can almost bet some money that 99% of ppl that have 2gb of ram wont get far beyond 53x33 or equal sizes).

That's the first time I've seen a map that messed up. I do expect some oddities here and there and I have from the beginning. As long as they don't show up like that on a regular basis I'll be happy.


If you never want to see a tiny island, you have to avoid the Natural and Pressed shorelines. Only Solid shoreline will avoid ever producing regions of tiny islands.

- Sirian

If you never want to see a tiny island, you have to avoid the Natural and Pressed shorelines. Only Solid shoreline will avoid ever producing regions of tiny islands.

- Sirian

You learn something new everyday! Thanks :)

Fenryial

I will try this, I didnt know. And I have only tried max with a (52x32) map. hehe not (53x33) or higher. Like I say I have 2 gigs and not many crashes with that. It just takes FOREVER to change land type and such in the WB.

Thanks again :)

I already posted this in the Europe Map, Please thread but here is an example of a Europe map which is 125x116. 52x33 definitely shouldn't be the size your game is maxing out at.

can you please either add the map in your post, or even better add a link to the thread so i can find it easier? i dont like rumors, so would be nice to have the full picture.(ALOT of users reach the limit just a litle over 50x30).
and remember that the default 32x26 grids(is actually 128x104 tiles).
It would actually surprise me if someone have made a map larger then about 53x33(which is about 212x132 tiles) and it actually works!(and even more weird that people havent reacted to it (almost) always crashes).

But if someone have made it past that problemarea then very fine, if just someone can find out WHY;) (it would be nice for everyone(else) to get even larger maps also:)

But there are more ways to make maps.(if i dont remember wrong you can make a map from a bitmap file). so for all we know the problem could be in the "generating" maps when you try to start a game(which is larger then XXxXX).

ppl need to give more fedback on what works or not(before one can find out 100% where the problems lay).

My bad forgetting the difference between grids and tiles. :)

yes i tried to go through all the custom maps thread subfolder at this forum. only found those small maps.(yes i do consider such maps small!:/

feel like civ4 is a giant step backward and not forward. as a strategygame player, fancy/nice 3d is about the last thing on my list of "wanted features".
for each civ i only wish for the maps to be bigger, more civs, better ai,etc.
3d doesnt just waste resources, it actually made this game even more limited then civ3. and thats sad. but maybe we can have just as big maps,etc in civ4 as in civ3 in about 3-5yrs;)
(since 2gb ram,3ghz+ intel cpu,geforce 6800 ultra just doesnt cut it for this game, while a cheap internal graphic card,512mb memory,2ghz cpu was more then strong enough for 5!x bigger maps in civ3 then civ4).

Well 3D is a feature wanted by quite a few people. It's simply the nature of the marketplace to expect new games to be in 3D. Computers continue to get faster, bigger video cards, hd etc. It seems logical for them to give the consumer something with new and exciting eye candy.

*Each grid cell consists of 4 tiles (plots), so a 32x20 map grid is actually 128x80 plots.
...
As mentioned earlier, cach grid cell consists of 4 tiles (plots), and I recommend keeping the ratio to or around 1:6.

Wait a minute, I'm confused... do you mean that each grid is 4 plots (in a 2x2 arrangement) or 16 plots (in a 4x4 arrangement)?

Actually i disagree. Turnbased strategy game market is the WRONG market for 3d. yes 3d can be "cool", but most turnbased strategy gamers dont want 3d if its sacrifices everything else. (there has been more then one survey about this topic, and it usually always says the same). 3d is NOT the main focus on turnbased strategy game market. 3d is the focus on MAINstream market. so the question is: did they want to launch this game more into mainstream or to satisfy the turnbased strategy market. the product speaks for itself.
3d is all good, as long as it doesnt downgrade the game 3-5 years back in time. civ4 isnt the first turnbased strategygame that added 3d, and failed. there are other turnbased strategygames aswell that added 3d and made the game so extremly hungry for resources that it lost alot of players.

turnbased strategy games in itself(without 3d) is a type of game where you can NEVER get enough memory or cpu. there doesnt exist enough memory or cpupower in a modern pc to be able to get a REAL notch game. and it wont for maaaaany years. so instead of wasting resources on 3d, they should give those few resources to better ai, bigger maps, etc.

well well... maybe i should make my own civ game;) i guess its the only way... i would have liked features as take use of multiple cpu`s, take use of cluster networks/home networks(to reduce the resourcehog on main computer- nice option to have:) etc
(and not load the whole map into memory, it is not 100% necesary. it is almost like a fps game would want to load up the complete map all at once).

its actually kinda scary that i found over 70 bugs&abnormalties in the first 5 hours that i played civ4. ok most were minor bugs, but still that is alot imo. (but the game works, and in some years one can take advantage that most things arent hardcoded in civ4 compared to civ3;) now they are just even more "limited" by the use of extreme hardware requirements instead.

1 grid equals 4 tiles(or what you may want to call it).
(2x2=4).

(ok, Sirian. is that the correct word for it?(tiles).

Well you can think what you want about TBS games. The niche wargame TBS can get away with an outdate look. A modern game put out by a well-known and highly visible production team such as Firaxis, Sid Meier etc is not going to simply ignore the evolving technology and incorporate it into their game. Imagine if Maxis released the next Sim City with Sim2K graphics and merely said in response "well the simulation, formula, and AI is really advanced over SimCityIV". That would be unacceptable to your average consumer shelling out $50 here in 2005 soon to be 2006.

Civilization is a mainstream game my friend. Do you think it continually tops the list of Best Games Ever and isn't considered mainstream? Noone wants to play a sophisticated game full of depth if it has the graphics of NetHack. You might like it but it would flop in the marketplace and thus would be a failure. The fact is CivIV isn't a failure despite you being annoyed with it not meeting your lofty expectations. It's almost guaranteed to sell well and has gotten plenty of positive reviews.

1 grid equals 4 plots(or what you may want to call it).
(2x2=4).

No. One grid cell is four plots wide, four plots tall, sixteen total plots.

civ has never been a mainstream game. it has been a "mainstream" in the turnbased category. with other gametypeplayers taking part in the gameplay. but still it has been a turnbased strategyworld, not for the big mainstream market.
and good that you took sim city 4 in your post, because that was a big f*ckup.

as i said 3d is nice, but the turnbased strategymarket isnt a market for 3d. first priority is the ai and gameplay NOT 3d. offcourse 3d and visual effects are nice, but turnbased strategyplayers are alot more demanding then other gamecategory players. in other types of gamecategories you often want something nice to watch,etc. while in turnbased its basicly all about good algoritms(ai,etc),maps,etc. which all takes ALOT of resources in itself.
where 3d is no must at all, but its nice. but its like buying a superluxery car just because it looks good. and then after buying it you realize that you cant handle the loan, because it just costed to much. so you would have to sell out your house etc.
3d is no high requirement in strategy games, gameplay is!. 3d is a bonus(as long as it doesnt cost your "house"(gameplay) to buy that fancy "car"(3d)).

we do agree that civ4 has reached the mainstream market long time ago, through it beeing a very good turnbased strategygame of its time. but the gamestyle is still not that mainstream. adding 3d makes it more mainstream yes. but then the question comes down to if its going to focus on beeing a mainstream game or a turnbased strategygame. (turnbased games do require alot of resources, but thats usually in memory and cpu, without even 3d. add 3d and ....well).

and as you said, it will sell good anyway. but that doesnt justify everything. it has become a brandname loooong time ago, the civ series however havent involved much.(actually the civgames seems to just get more and more incomplete for each release. and thats sad. one should think that when they earn so many millions that they would care about making a game more or less complete).

No, the whole point is that you're sitting here crafting an argument which is so utterly biased that one can't help but conclude that CivIV shouldn't have been done in 3D.
as i said 3d is nice, but the turnbased strategymarket isnt a market for 3d.
Rubbish. People in the RTS arena were arguing the same thing when the conversion to 3D started occurring. The simple fact is that the time of 2D for major titles is over more or less. Get used to it. Maybe you don't appreciate the improved graphics but plenty of people out there do.

On top of all this, do you really think 3D is a larger stress on a game engine operating in turns vs one operating in real-time? Right!

you really dont get how turnbased games operates. and yes there are ALOT of users who do NOT appriciate the 3d, when it comes on the cost of the gameplay!.
(everyone likes 3d, its just the cost that is not appriciated).
so yes plenty of ppl like 3d, but even more couldnt care less about 3d when they play the games for its gameplay(strategy!) and not how nice trees blows in the wind,etc.

Well, I have to throw in the towel here. My system just can't handle these larger maps. Even if I raise the values in the .py file by just a couple, it chugs so bad around the time world maps can be traded that I'd rather watch grass grow. I'm a little past half-way through the tech tree in my current game and it's already around 30-50 seconds in between turns, with a crapload of choppiness, with other unexplainable pauses here and there. Hell, sometimes I have to keep hitting the Num Lock key to see if my system froze. Anyways, I've tried adjusting graphics options, clearing cache, doing restarts before loading games... nothing has really helped. Yet, I can run default huge maps all the way through without any problems. I find it a little odd, that performance drops like a rock just by raising the map size up a notch or two from huge... :confused:

Athlon64 3400+
GeForce 6800 Ultra
1GB Corsair XMS PC3200 DDR400 RAM

I've thought about adding more RAM, but I'm not sure the cost right now would be worth the gain (if any). Besides, if I throw any money at a PC, it's gonna be the next one I build when the new generation of video cards come out.

Im playing now on a 22000 plot map and it works ok so far. Ive played around 300 turns so far. This size loads ok but if its any little bit larger it crashes a lot at load time. So Ive been keeping it here. I havent had much lag but Ive only played 4 AI's so far. But what Low was saying is true, why when making a map just a tad larger than default HUGE it slows by a HUGE noticable way. Im running which may help for the lag anyways
AMD FX57
Geoforce 7800GTX
2GB OCZ PC3200 Titanium

You think it wouldnt lag at all!

Fenryial

fantastic post. how do you "save" posts so i never forget how to find this again?