Finally we have met them and thus every team is known to us and everyteam knows everyone. Consider the embassy open for business. :hammer:

Here is a draft letter that I will send before the turns gets to TNT so could our dimplomats to KISS and Donuts ask them to wait along as possible before playing the save so we can have enough time get this right and hopefully we can get TNT talking. Here is a quick note that I could send, but I need some advice first.

My name is classical_hero and I am your ambassador.

Our teams are the last to be in contact with each other and we would like get or teams talking because two teams with a goal is better than one team working by itself.

The weather in Athens is absolutely perfect, I do hope that in dancing Banana that it is fine also.

You can contact me via PM or via IM. Here are my various chat personas
AIM:classicalhero7
MSN: classical_hero7@hotmail.com
YAHOO: classical_hero7@yahoo.com
ICQ: 218053601

If KISS have not used 1+1=3 on them, then perhaps we could use that on them. One thing we must do is try not be condecending to them, which would be vetry easy to do, since they have made enemies of the other two team and seem to be very explosive.

EDIT. I have sent that to TNT. A more inclusive emaill will come latter.

KISS are still waiting for a reply from them ... is it permitted to give KISS details about our dealings with TNT ???

Yes, since it it very limited. Actually, what dealings?

Basically a progress report on correspondence sent and possible answers that TNT send us

Thought this would be interesting to post here as well

Techs we have that they don't
>The Wheel
>Warrior Code
>Ceremonial Burial ... Mysticism
>Writing ... Philosophy ... Code of Laws

Techs we both have
>Bronze Working ... Iron Working
>Alphabet
>Masonry
>Pottery

:confused: Doesn't look as though they are going for a specific Government ... are they going for Maths or MM ???

KISS said they were going for Monarchy, if memory serves me, and it usually doesn't

Ken - you sure you meant KISS? Dnut would make more sense, but this is the TNT thread.... I'm confused...

i meant KISS said that TNT (they) were going for Monarchy lol, sorry for the confusion

TNT got Mathematics on the most recent turn. I checked last save as received and after duplicating General_W's moves with the curragh to make contact with TNT - Math was 240 beakers (monopoly cost). This turn it is down to 206 beakers, so someone learned it this turn, and it has to be TNT because they are the only ones (besides us) with Masonry.

Now, if we could get them to talk to us, maybe we could work out a deal - Math for a couple techs that everyone else already has...

i meant KISS said that TNT (they) were going for Monarchy lol, sorry for the confusion

When?

Doesn't make sense ... TNT have not gotten Warrior Code nor Ceremonial Burial which are the prerequisites for Monachy

and

TNT don't have Writing needed for Republic

Maybe we can help steer TNT to Monarchy?

Give them Mysticism and WC for Math?.... I Don't have the tech costs here at work (I'd look them up but the forums are a little slow this morning)

If they ever get back to us ... (me thinks they are in isolationist mode)

Perhaps a strategy to try could be to bombard a number of prominent TNTers with a PM message to tell them to check e-mail ... and send an informative letter to them in g-mail.

Outline suggestions for a proposal ...
1. say we know have a number of techs they may be interested in (don't be specific) ...
2. mention our suspicions that other teams (no-names) maybe in cahoots or at least actively trading ...
3. and therefore invite them to either respond in writing or chat.
4. maybe even be so bold as to say we do not trust anyone, so a straight mutually beneficial trade swap is all we want at the moment.

That way we are up front and they may respond to this no nonsense approach ...

NO reply will once and for all tell us if we are wasting our time.

I am sick of waiting timewise and service-wise on these warring pillocks to act ...

I will now PM TNT hierarchy and see if they will reply.

Send the PM with that x-ray of Homer's head ... that will go down nice as an ice breaker :lol:

I have sent a PM to vbraun.

TNT got Mathematics on the most recent turn. I checked last save as received and after duplicating General_W's moves with the curragh to make contact with TNT - Math was 240 beakers (monopoly cost). This turn it is down to 206 beakers, so someone learned it this turn, and it has to be TNT because they are the only ones (besides us) with Masonry.

Now, if we could get them to talk to us, maybe we could work out a deal - Math for a couple techs that everyone else already has...

FYI: I trust you guys, but when doing these actions, DUPLICATE EXACTLY WHAT THE TURNPLAYER DID. If you are unsure of what you are doing, DO NOT DO IT. Ask the turnplayer if he remembers, or if he kept a log (good idea). Follow the rules about reloads (this would constitute as one if some thing wasn't followed exactlty)... thanks, you did nothing wrong here as far as I can tell, it is up to you to police yourselves.

you did nothing wrong here as far as I can tell, it is up to you to police yourselves.

I know we all want to stay as far away from cheating as we can.

Just so you know GA - as the turnplayer, I DO keep a log of what I do (posted in the the "TERM 3 (Presidential Updates)" thread.

Thanks for keeping us honest!

FYI: I trust you guys, but when doing these actions, DUPLICATE EXACTLY WHAT THE TURNPLAYER DID. If you are unsure of what you are doing, DO NOT DO IT. Ask the turnplayer if he remembers, or if he kept a log (good idea). Follow the rules about reloads (this would constitute as one if some thing wasn't followed exactlty)... thanks, you did nothing wrong here as far as I can tell, it is up to you to police yourselves.

Thanks for the trust (and the warning!). Quite honestly, there are already enough units so that duplicating a move entirely would be hard so in this case I just cycled through units until I got to the one relevant curragh and was careful to move it just as General_W did. It was easier not to move anything else than to duplicate his entire move.

Fortunately, now that we know everyone, I can't think of any reason why anyone would need to duplicate any part of the turnplayer's move ever again.

Shock, Horror, I have recieved correspondance from TNT. Here is what greekguy had to say to me.
Greetings Greeks! We, the strong people TNT, are very happy to meet you. We would like to share the fruits of this world with you and enjoy its bounties. Now, to get off on a good foot, I would like to propose a trade deal between our two nations. We are currently lacking the knowledge needed to accomplish several basic things. We seek the knowledge needed to create "wheels", the wisdom of ceremonial burial, and the words of the "Warrior Code" If you were to teach our people these valuable secrets, we would be willing to teach your people how to build great buildings with Masonry. You should realize that these secrets are known only to us Persians and only you are being offered this trade deal. I believe this trade to be just and fair. Please respond soon. Farewell.

greekguy, TNT Greek Ambassador

This came to me yesterday but I dd not go on the net yesteryday so I only recieved it now.

Interesting...

Are they trying to trick us into trading for a tech we already have?..

Are they sincerely ignorant of our techs?...

They are at least smart enough to know a helpful friend when they see one! I hope it is easier to deal with these Persians than it was with the Iroquois.

I don't understand ... I suggest a swift reply indicating an interest in trading, but confusiion as we already know how to make bricks ...

Aside ... I was thinking they may have made a mistake and possibly ment maths but they went into such a poetic description I am genuinely confused ...

I agree with fe3333au - both about the confusion and the reply.

I would like at least to have a chat with them as the very least and then we will be able to see what is going on. I think we might be the first team for them to have diplomatic relations with.

Friendly relations ?? ... Dubious, I suspect that we are their only choice (and chance) to get some of the pesky level one techs and that this deal is a one off only ...

With this in mind, I thought this may assist the analysis ... it is based on our confirmed knowledge from Tech Trading Screen ...

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/Techno.JPG

Following on, the ONLY Techs that they could possibly be researching for so long is ONLY Mathematics

So I can only assume that the potential trade offered bt TNT is
>Mathematics for Wheel, Warrior Code, Ceremonial Burial and Writing

I unfortunately cannot find the article or reference to the cost of techs ... could someone do the sums and also post a link to this site in the Player Resource Thread (stickied)

EDIT ... :blush: No need to say anything guys :cringe: the original picture says it all :lol: ... maybe I should be known a Richard Craniumand not Provo :shakehead: ... just in case it is too early or late or you are at work and must take care else you lose your job ... I thought that TNT had Mysticism ... impossible :rolleyes:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I think if a chat is not readily forthcoming ... send a note to ask for clarification ...

My take on letter

Hello MIA ... We are Strong <blah> <blah> ... We have taken a certain tech strategy <blah> Don't take us for fools <blah> ... Just remember ... We are strong <blah> :D

Good letter if they hadn't stuffed up the actual trade deal :lol:

I want to tell KISS about this ... however await directions from Emp and rest of team ...

btw ... C_H when you do send a note to TNT, attach that humourous Small Brained Homer with it :D

I have the tech costs, and hopefully C_Hero could add these to each of the technologies in the Tech List thread:

BW 3
Mas 4
Alph 5
Pot 2
Whl 4
WC 3
CB 2

IW 6
Math 8
Writ 8
HBR 5
Myst 4

Const 20
Curr 16
Phil 6
CoL 10
Lit 10
Maps 12
Poly 12

Rep 28
Mon 24

OKay so Maths is worth ... 8

CB (2) + WC (3) + Wheel (4) ... less now cos everyone else has it ...

Are we happy with this or ... ??? ... I'm thinking hardball it ...


BTW ... I am deputy FM as Emp is very busy with study ... I have said Ken, C_H and myself can hold the fort until elections :) ... i will also keep Emp in the loop when I see him around ...

Diplomacy will have to wait a bit because greekguy is on holidays ATM.

I'd still send a note so it is waiting for him ... the note sounded urgent from their POV ...

Another option is to send the requested techs but not with an accept ... it will be upto TNT to send the deal back to us with the Mathematics attached ...

Don't know what are everyone's thoughts ...

Also Unless I hear otherwise I will indicate that TNT has contacted us to our KISS friends ...

I agree that we should tell KISS about all of this business...

I think it's OK to go ahead with this deal, or, more accurately, I can't think of a reason not to go ahead. They will get the dregs of the tech tree, excepting Wheel. Wheel, though valuable to their neighbor (Dnuts) does nothing for them immediately.

The only objection I have is that they do not have Mathematics right now. I don't think we should execute the trade until they have completed the research.

Had a chat with a very drunk Skippy ... later Whomp surfaced ... so repeated and extended chat with Whomp only one I will post


Da Da Da Daaaa <melodromatic music>
fe3333au: hey ... Guess What wrt MIA
bawhomp: what is happnening?
fe3333au: We got mail
bawhomp: from tnt?
fe3333au: yep

The Crux of TNT Note
fe3333au: confusing tech trade offer ... they want CB, WC and wheel ... in return for Masonry ... Problem is we already got
bawhomp: you have masonry
fe3333au: so I assume they mean Maths
bawhomp: lol
fe3333au: as it is the only possible tech thay could have been researching ... We are awaiting confirmation
bawhomp: that kinda knocks out the GLib talk
fe3333au: yes
bawhomp: they would beeline to lit
fe3333au: So we await TNT to get back to us ... I read the proposal as a one off ... no big lets be friends ... So we are seriously contemplating yes

Nut Front
fe3333au: Nuts are yet again not following up their offer ... so we have decided to wait them out and basically **** them off
bawhomp: we are up right now
fe3333au: we as in Green Alliance?
bawhomp: yeah if they won't make the deal then we can tell them we couldn't get masonry ... from either you or tnt
fe3333au: yes

Ultimately Nuts may have stuffed themselves though
fe3333au: Don't get me wrong ... we would prefer to deal with Nuts ... but will not now ... because they have been rude ... and condescending
bawhomp: i understand ... We can't give them republic ... too valuable
fe3333au: We feel getting Maths for 3 first level techs is a good deal
bawhomp: military techs
fe3333au: sure ... keeps war going ... You said Nuts feel confident to beat TNT atm
bawhomp: that's what they say but who knows
fe3333au: But atm Nuts are up on techs to TNT ... We will see if any trading happening b/w TNT and Nuts very easily
fe3333au: So what your thoughts ?
bawhomp: It gets us another tech.
fe3333au: yes
bawhomp: I just wonder if the deal could be expanded.
fe3333au: and not tangled into another tech swap scenario
bawhomp: I think we'd like them to research for us somehow....either TNT or donut
fe3333au: yes

Odd Swap for tech but probably No Tech Agreements
fe3333au: nothing stopping Nuts from trading us HBR for something ... I prefer the one off swapping deals ... maybe with cash added if we feel like it ... that way we feed them like ducks ... for our entertainment ... which is the war :D
bawhomp: It would nice if we get them both on separate paths.
fe3333au: I agree

Refugees Issue
bawhomp: catching up...my goodness
fe3333au: in KISS? ... What's going down in the world of KISS ?
bawhomp: I missed a lot so mostly talk about refugees ... and bugs missing the save ... duh
fe3333au: refugee is interesting discussion ... I see spoiler info not working ... If they end up as Military Minister ... they will of course create tactics based on previous knowledge
bawhomp: Yeah that's weird ... not sure how I feel about others joining a team.

fe3333au: If MIA got wiped ... I would seek asylum in KISS
bawhomp: See that's what is weird ... I would want most of your players ... Some from Donut ... Not many from TNT
fe3333au: It would have to be mutual

Musing on How it would Work
fe3333au: I would open a new thread in UN and call it Refugee Centre and add name and maybe experience (bio) ... then wait for people to contact me ... Then I choose ... But I would come with memories ... but nothing in hardcopy ... so I'd know city X which was once ours, is sitting on a resource ... or has potential to be settler factory
bawhomp: See I'd just want to lurk all the threads I think
fe3333au: A ghost ... Yes good option

Joining Team Option
fe3333au: But if I were to choose to join the game in another team ... I would have to lose access to MIA
fe3333au: It is difficult ... but if we work a good system the game will benefit
fe3333au: ultimately needs to engender fun and fair gaming environment

C-H ... was greekguy a PM or e-mail or chat?

Need you to post what you receive and send ... so we are all aware and in the loop :D

Please send the request for clarification again ... send it as e-mail ... and also PM active players to ensure they are aware they have mail ... say you are being hassled (which you are :mischief: ) by your team to get clarification of what the deal is ... but will await Greekguy for negotiations ... all you have to do is point to the Wonder Screen to show them that we don't need Masonry ...

Also send my AIM and tell them I am MIA Deputy Foreign Minister ... only reason for this is not to take your role ... but i may be available when you are not ;)

Please send this ... if Greekguy has not yet responded


Dear TNT

It was exciting to hear from your great peoples ... exciting yet strangely confusing.

You indicated a willingness to trade Masonry for Warrior Code, Wheel and Ceremonial Burial. You also proudly informed us that TNT were the only team thus far to have this knowledge, your Trade advisor would have informed you prior to approach that we already had Bricks and Mortar. However since your approach, and unless you are trying to dupe us, D-Nuts only very recently must have popped a Hut.

We can only assume that you ment to say Mathematics ... we would like clarification ... if you indeed made a mistake then that would explain much.

If the deal proposed is Mathematics for the 3 stated technologies ... then we are agreed and will send the documents for your signature.

Please respond

Classical_Hero - TNT ambassador
Feaurius III - Acting Foreign Minister (AIM - fe3333au)

I dont' think we should mention ANYTHING AT ALL concerning Dnuts and Masonry. We have Masonry, and that is reason enough to assume TNT meant to trade Math.

All of the hard intel we got through Whomp in that chat MUST not be accidentally revealed. It could be very inconvenient if the other teams suspected that KISSMIA exists.

Reason to discuss Masonry and D-Nuts is that we are not actually revealing anything that TNT don't see in the trade screen.

We all know that KISS don't have it ... so TNT may suspect that we traded it ...us blaming them is good psychologically ... it will also tell them that we did not trade it to their enemy! ...

Classical_Hero has sent it ... I don't want to procrastinate as we did with Nuts ... we should have gotten HBR from them ...

Also getting Maths could also be a way of assisting Nuts to hold out against TNT ... if given through KISS and then us getting HBR ...

But ultimately I am going to try to get as many techs from the warring continental players as we can ... and exploit their respective paranoias :evil:

We all know that KISS don't have it ... so TNT may suspect that we traded it ...us blaming them is good psychologically ... it will also tell them that we did not trade it to their enemy! ...



Ahhh.. Very smart. I didn't understand the intent when I read the letter the first time through. Sometimes it is difficult to listen with the ears of your adversary ;)

To be sure, a trade for Mathematics is a very good one, it really opens things up to us. Once Dnuts see that we have mathematics, as well as TNT, our stature will rise.

Also, we can hold onto math for a while, and trade it with MapMaking to KISS for Republic. No one else will be able to give them that kind of a deal, so the trade will appear completely legitimate.

This came in with the Save


Greetings Classical_Hero - TNT ambassador and Feaurius III - Acting Foreign Minister!

We did not make a mistake in our offer to you. We did not know how close your glorious people were to discovering the secrets of masonry. We are pleased that you and your loved ones will no longer have to live in houses made of straw or sticks. At the time of our dispatch my people were indeed the only ones able to live in houses made of stone. I assure you the Iroqi did not learn techniques in masonry from us. We are in no position to teach those barbarians such 'fine technologies' though we will soon be giving them other more practical lessons.

Along with this dispatch my people are offering to teach your people about math. We know your offer of cermonial burial, warrior code and the wheel for math was made in good faith but math is worth more than this. I'd explain this to you further but I'd have to teach you math for you to understand and that would make the trade moot, wouldn't it? If you threw in writing and / or a fair amount of gold we would surely accept such a trade. We realize that time is short so we invite you to make us an official (in game) offer (and accept it) and if we deem it to be fair we will surely accept it ourselves (next turn).

We look forward to working hand in hand with you in the future and hope that your nation prospers.

donsig
Grand Vizier of the Ironic People


Hmmm ... that changes everything ... not sure I want to add Writing to the mix ... but will await discussion at a less rushed pace ... and we will send them an e-mail (possibly with a chat involved)

We had had Masonry for sometime when they approached us ... so this Donsig, the Grand Vizier of the Ironic People ... is mistaken ...

However I think playing ultrapolite with them would pay off ... and we send them the Homer Xray as well ... :D

I agree with being ultrapolite, but the answer is pretty clearly "No thank you." Their original offer was Masonry (4) for The Wheel (4), Warrior Code (3), and Ceremonial Burial (2). We may not know Math yet, but I'm pretty sure 4+3+2 is much greater than 4. Now their offer is Math (8) for The Wheel (4), Warrior Code (3), Ceremonial Burial (2), and Writing (8), (plus gold?!). I understand Math is a monopoly tech and ours are not which makes the beaker cost closer, but it is still not the least bit appealing.

So, yeah, we can be ultrapolite instead of being insulted/offended by their ridiculous offer, but unless they are going to be a little more realistic, I don't even see the point in a counteroffer.

I also just notice the line about sending with ACCEPT the offer ...

Have mentioned to KISS (Whomp)


Just incase Tubby hadn't posted our chat
fe3333au: Reason i contacted was to also stress that the reason I was a subtle as a fist into a newbie prisoner was that I thought that there was only 1 resource of dye and spice ... so I know that MIA will be happy to be left at least 1 source for each ... the rest is fair game for KISS to get
bawhomp: i saw your conversation
fe3333au: also should I write a letter ... or is that OK
fe3333au: Want all of KISS to get back to defcon ... Groovy
bawhomp: no your fine
fe3333au: :D

<during chatter ... turn was sent>

Mail In ...
fe3333au: Nuts just sent their save
bawhomp: i think war is on
fe3333au: i must check in team inbox for mail ... and I'm not talkin' chain :)

<connection dropout> :angry:

TNT proposal
fe3333au: What you know about Donsig?
bawhomp: only from what he's written
fe3333au: He representative for TNT officially Grand Viser of the Ironic People ... Wants more for Maths ... either Writing or substancial Gold
bawhomp: for all three techs? ... is he nuts? ... I thought it was too much to begin with
fe3333au: This added to WC, CB, Wheel
bawhomp: he's nuts ... let them research
fe3333au: no he's TNT :D
bawhomp: they're <F-word> stupid
fe3333au: I feel similar ... but at least we have dialogue
bawhomp: WC and Wheel are very valuable to them
fe3333au: yes ... CB is good too ... but not as much ... I feel they are asking for too much ... Will play ultrapolite ... unless they become outrageously annoying and rude
bawhomp: beaker costs ... simple ... doesn't have to be exact but in the ballpark
fe3333au: yes Maths for Wheel, WC. CB is similar 9 to 8 ... in their favour when virgin techs
bawhomp: they lowered the cost by researching it
fe3333au: yes
bawhomp: as well as the others ... are cheaper ... But still

How to get present value for presents ;)
fe3333au: so don't know what value is now ... I don't know how to calculate ... guess I need CivAssist or something
bawhomp: civassist is good for that
fe3333au: But other more adept members of MIA will answer

Musings on Trade Policy
fe3333au: At the most I would go for equal deal ... no way to go for unequal ... when not in our favour ;)
bawhomp: i wonder what you could get maths for from donut ... it's valuable for them ... hbr?
fe3333au: Thinking the same ... but waiting for them to reply to last message ... but thinking exactly like you are ;)

Draft of response


Hail and well met donsig, Grand Vizier of the Ironic People.

You honour us with your communiqué, we trust your sport with the Nutters was not interrupted too long attending to our previous request for clarification. We found them to be an uppity bunch and full of bluster, much like our neighbours who are equally boorish.

We send this image that was produced by a gift machine from the Great Meleet :worship: ... It was taken when we met the Nutters in diplomacy and shows the inner working of the slow Doughnut mind ... we trust you will find use for this intelligence, excuse the pun :D ...

<REMOVED ... see later Draft>

Unfortunately the person in charge of the device had an accident and it now lies broken ... He then also suffered an accident ... a extended painful one. :evil:

Now to business, you mentioned that we did not mistake your offer to trade Masonry for the three other technologies ... hmmm ... I fear that we must have strict words with our pigeon postal service, and perhaps have them train ones that can swim :lol: ... but seriously we have been building brickworks for some time prior to your message.

We felt confident that you obviously meant Mathematics and therefore tailored the deal to be fair ... see for yourself

Mathematics (8) ... while Masonry (4)

Our offer - Wheel (4) + Warrior Code (3) + Ceremonial Burial (2) = 9

:nono: Now we understand that the value lowers slightly but not to the degree of Writing (4) ... nor to the requirement of substantial gold top up ... so we can only think that you have set a test for us :lol: ... and that we have passed :D

Happy Hunting and may you gather many scalps, that should irritate the irony


MIA

<REMOVED ... see later Draft>
Feaurius III - Foreign Minister - (No Longer Acting)
Points if you can tell me the actor, character and series the image is from

Please also send the contact details of your people or state the preferred method of communication ... I shall send you the details of my staff ...



So feedback time ...

Also let us take into account the potential of getting Maths eventually from Nuts ... or trading it on for HBR when Nuts have 7 ish turns to go ...

In lieu of this development perhaps adding some small sum of gold to the deal maybe in order ... That way we get for 3 first level techs + gold ... Mathematics and Horse Back Riding

Any feedback on letter?

Can someone inform the Foreign Department how much the techs we are offering are worth ...

I need current values for
Mathematics
Writing
Ceremonial Burial
Warrior Code
Wheel

We need an accurate picture of relative values ...

It would be preferable if we can get values in dollar terms ... as we may have to add gold.

However we could also add something about us behaving as a pseudo-Great Library ... thanks Gen_W :clap: ... and that the outstanding value is the membership fee for the said institution ;)

I see no need to scrape and grovel with these war mongers :smug:

Tech prices - base cost/monopoly beaker price on Emperor lever (in-game beaker price based on who knows it so far):

Mathematics - 8/240 (205)
Writing - 8/240 (137)
Ceremonial Burial - 2/60 (34)
Warrior Code - 3/90 (51)
Wheel - 4/120 (68)

I think the letter looks good (after correcting Writing's price of course ;) ).

Draft with input from Chamnix el Prezidente


Hail and well met donsig, Grand Vizier of the Ironic People.

You honour us with your communiqué, we trust your sport with the Nutters was not interrupted too long attending to our previous request for clarification. We found them to be an uppity bunch and full of bluster, much like our neighbours who are equally boorish.

We send this image that was produced by a gift machine from the Great Meleet :worship: ... It was taken when we met the Nutters in diplomacy and shows the inner working of the slow Doughnut mind ... we trust you will find use for this intelligence, excuse the pun :D ...

<REMOVED ... see later Draft>

Unfortunately the person in charge of the device had an accident and it now lies broken ... He then also suffered an accident ... an extendedly painful one.

Now to business, you mentioned that we did not mistake your offer to trade Masonry for the three other technologies ... hmmm ... I fear that we must have strict words with our pigeon postal service, and perhaps have them train ones that can swim :lol: ... but seriously we have been building brickworks for some time prior to your message ...

Therefore we felt confident that you obviously meant Mathematics and thus tailored the deal to be fair ... see for yourself our thinking logic ...
The tech prices - base cost/monopoly beaker price on Emperor level (in-game beaker price based on who knows it so far)

Your request from MIA - Wheel 4/120 (68) + Warrior Code 3/90 (51) + Ceremonial Burial 2/60 (34) = Total 9/270 with current value (153)

In return for - Masonry was 4/120 (68) ... hmmm ... :crazyeye: ... while Mathematics 8/240 (205) and therefore obviously the proposed technology.

:nono: Now we understand that the initial technology values lower slightly but not to the degree of Writing 8/240 (137) ... so we can only think that you have set a test for us :lol: ... and that we have passed and indeed graduated from Haggle University with honours :smug:


So to business, there are three serious options for you to consider:

Mathematics (205) in exchange for Writing (137)
or
Mathematics (205) for the pseudo Great Library pack valued at (153)
or
Mathematics (205) for the Knowledge Quartet (290) :eek: which would require much compensation in gold from you.

The slight weight in our favour from the first two options, will be considered the Happy Hunting Fee which alleviates the tedium of researching those pesky commonly known basic skills, thus allowing you the freedom to concentrate on gathering as many scalps, that should irritate the irony, that you can from the Nutters.


May you and yours prosper ... we eagerly awaiting your responce


MIA

<REMOVED ... see later Draft>
Feaurius III - Foreign Minister - (No Longer Acting)
Points if you can tell me the actor, character and series the image is from

Please also send the contact details of your people or state the preferred method of communication ... I shall send you the details of my staff ...



Chamnix could you check the Masonry value please (for 2 other teams knowing)

I intend to send this off to them soon, before there turn

Great work Fe! (and Chamnix)

TNT seems really unlikely to want to give up any gold (a la option 3). Maybe we could offer 25 gold lump sum along with the "pseudo Great Library pack"? They get 3 techs and some money to upgrade units to go Kill D'nuts.

Besides - I think TNT will be hurting more than the D'nuts in this war. Highly mobile MW in their home territory are going to kick some serious poopy out of the invading Immortals.

Anyway - those are my thoughts!

:goodjob:

Anyone else think that we should throw some cash in?

Please answer as I want to send it off in 8 hours ... (Nuts have received their turn already)

Also please comment to the sum of gold to send ... those that choose silence have no right to be pissed off later ...

I will also add some line about blah blah ... before trust has been built between our two nations we will not expect any SEND + ACCEPT when technology is exchanged between us ... blah blah .. as they did instruct us to do :rolleyes:

If gold then I would send 10gp ... worth 10 turns of revenue at +1 per turn

yeah - totally start at 10 gold. They may want to haggle anyway.
I'd be comfortable going higher - but no more than 25 gold.

(remember - we're hopefully going to turn around and trade Math for HBR from D'nuts)

Incorporating the ex-President ... you know ! ... Yes the one who sells puppies to the meat factory ... yummy anyone else getting peckish ??


Hail and well met donsig, Grand Vizier of the Ironic People.

You honour us with your communiqué, we trust your sport with the Nutters was not interrupted too long attending to our previous request for clarification. We found them to be an uppity bunch and full of bluster, much like our neighbours who are equally boorish.

We send this image that was produced by a gift machine from the Great Meleet :worship: ... It was taken when we met the Nutters in diplomacy and shows the inner working of the slow Doughnut mind ... we trust you will find use for this intelligence, excuse the pun :D ...

<REMOVED ... see later Draft>

Unfortunately the person in charge of the device had an accident and it now lies inert and broken. The responsible person also suffered an accident, an extendedly painful one.

OK frivolity over, onwards to business, you mentioned that we did not mistake your offer to trade Masonry for the three other technologies ... hmmm ... I fear that we must have strict words with our pigeon postal service, and perhaps have them train ones that can swim :lol: ... but seriously we have been building brickworks for some time prior to your message (I would have discussions with your foreign advisor for issuing outdated intel).

Therefore we felt confident that you obviously meant Mathematics and thus tailored the deal to be fair ... see for yourself our thinking logic ...
The tech prices - base cost/monopoly beaker price on Emperor level (in-game beaker price based on who knows it so far)

Your request from MIA - Wheel 4/120 (68) + Warrior Code 3/90 (51) + Ceremonial Burial 2/60 (34) = Total 9/270 with current value (153)

In return for - Masonry was 4/120 (68) ... hmmm ... :crazyeye: ... while Mathematics 8/240 (205) and therefore obviously the proposed technology.

:nono: Now, we understand that the initial technology values lower slightly but not to the degree of Writing 8/240 (137) ... so we can only think that you have set a test for us :lol: ... and that we have passed and indeed graduated from Haggle University with honours :smug:


So to business, there are three serious options for you to consider:

Mathematics (205) in exchange for Writing (137) and a medium purse of 12gp.
or
Mathematics (205) for the pseudo Great Library pack valued at (153) and a small purse of 10gp.
or
Mathematics (205) for the Knowledge Quartet (290) :eek: which would require much compensation in gold from you ... in a large purse of 19gp.

The weight of the purses are the issue ...

These trade options all are designed to alleviate the tedium of researching those pesky commonly known basic skills, thus allowing you the freedom to engage in Happy Doughnut Hunting and concentrate on gathering as many scalps, that should irritate the irony, that you can from the Nutters.


May you and yours prosper ... we eagerly awaiting your responce ... and your thoughts to the weight of the respective purses ...


MIA

<REMOVED ... see later Draft>
Feaurius III - Foreign Minister - (No Longer Acting)
Points if you can tell me the actor, character and series the image is from

Please also send the contact details of your people or state the preferred method of communication ... I shall send you the details of my staff ...


1. Thoughts on gold value ...
>Medium Purse = 205-137 = 68 = 6*2 = 12gp
>Small Purse = 205-153 = 52 = 5*2 = 10gp
>Large Purse = 290-205 = 85 = 9*2 = 18gp

2. Chamnix could you check the Masonry value please (for 2 other teams knowing)

I intend to send this off to them soon, before their turn

I'm not sure how many people had Masonry at the time of their "offer". The 4/120 is definitely right - the in-game cost is times 6/7 if 1 civ knew it, times 5/7 if 2 knew it, and times 4/7 if 3 knew it. The price you have is right if everyone but us knew Masonry at the time.

I liked the letter better without any counteroffers just yet. Let them come back to us with something reasonable before we bargain. Another thing to remember is the techs we are offering are known by everyone else already and will not get any cheaper. Donuts are researching Math, so the price of that will drop for us once they complete it. Also, I would prefer not to give them Writing under any circumstances - it opens too many options for them. Possibly we could offer Mysticism instead if we need something more from our end.

Bottom line to me - they start with absolutely ludicrous offers, and although we are trying the polite approach, I wouldn't even try to bargain unless they show reason.

Fixing Masonry value ...

I think we are very near if not there ... I would prefer to get the ball rolling ... will remove specific money references and slightly change wording ... I leave writing option in because it is an option ... one we will not necessarily take.


Hail and well met donsig, Grand Vizier of the Ironic People.

You honour us with your communiqué, we trust your sport with the Nutters was not interrupted too long attending to our previous request for clarification. We found them to be an uppity bunch and full of bluster, much like our neighbours who are equally boorish.

We send this image that was produced by a gift machine from the Great Meleet :worship: ... It was taken when we met the Nutters in diplomacy and shows the inner working of the slow Doughnut mind ... we trust you will find use for this intelligence, excuse the pun :D ...

<REMOVED ... see later Draft>

Unfortunately the person in charge of the device had an accident and it now lies inert and broken. The responsible person also suffered an accident, an extendedly painful one.

OK frivolity over, onwards to business, you mentioned that we did not mistake your offer to trade Masonry for the three other technologies ... hmmm ... I fear that we must have strict words with our pigeon postal service, and perhaps have them train ones that can swim :lol: ... but seriously we have been building brickworks for some time prior to your message (I would have discussions with your foreign advisor for issuing outdated intel).

Therefore we felt confident that you obviously meant Mathematics and thus tailored the deal to be fair ... see for yourself our thinking logic ...
The tech prices - base cost/monopoly beaker price on Emperor level (in-game beaker price based on who knows it so far)

Your request from MIA - Wheel 4/120 (68) + Warrior Code 3/90 (51) + Ceremonial Burial 2/60 (34) = Total 9/270 with current value (153)

In return for - Masonry was 4/120 (86) ... hmmm ... :crazyeye: ... while Mathematics 8/240 (205) and therefore obviously the proposed technology.

:nono: Now, we understand that the initial technology values lower slightly but not to the degree of Writing 8/240 (137) ... so we can only think that you have set a test for us :lol: ... and that we have passed and indeed graduated from Haggle University with honours :smug:


So to business, interpreting your letter, we see that there are three serious options to be considered :

Mathematics (205) in exchange for Writing (137) and a small purse.
or
Mathematics (205) for the Initial Knowledge Trinity valued at (153) and a small purse.
or
Mathematics (205) for the Pseudo Great Library (290) :eek: which would require much compensation in gold from you ... in a large reinforced purse.

Which option and the weight of the purse are the issues ... we also do not expect you to send with accept trade items, since we will not until a trusting relationship has been formed, which is the first rule learnt at Haggle University.

These trade options all are designed to alleviate the tedium of researching those pesky commonly known basic skills, thus allowing you the freedom to engage in Happy Doughnut Hunting and concentrate on gathering as many scalps, that should irritate the irony, that you can from the Nutters.


May you and yours prosper ... we eagerly await your responce ... and to reading your thoughts as to the trade option chosen and the weight of the respective purses ...


MIA

<REMOVED ... see later Draft>
Feaurius III - Foreign Minister - (Official, No Longer Acting)
Points if you can tell me the actor, character and series the image is from

Please also send the contact details of your people or state the preferred method of communication ... I shall send you the details of my staff as we aim to be available in all timezones 24/7.

EDIT ... Double post

Turn Save sent so I have as well ... and spell checked

Cut and paste friendly document for your convenience


Hail and well met donsig, Grand Vizier of the Ironic People.

You honour us with your communiqué, we trust your sport with the Nutters was not interrupted too long attending to our previous request for clarification. We found them to be an uppity bunch and full of bluster, much like our neighbours who are equally boorish.

We send this image that was produced by a gift machine from the Great Meleet :worship: ... It was taken when we met the Nutters in diplomacy and shows the inner working of the slow Doughnut mind ... we trust you will find use for this intelligence, excuse the pun :D ...

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/simpbrain.jpg

Unfortunately the person in charge of the device had an accident and it now lies inert and broken. The responsible person also suffered an accident, an extendedly painful one.

OK frivolity over, onwards to business, you mentioned that we did not mistake your offer to trade Masonry for the three other technologies ... hmmm ... I fear that we must have strict words with our pigeon postal service, and perhaps have them train ones that can swim :lol: ... but seriously we have been building brickworks for some time prior to your message (I would have discussions with your foreign advisor for issuing outdated intel).

Therefore we felt confident that you obviously meant Mathematics and thus tailored the deal to be fair ... see for yourself our thinking logic ...
The tech prices - base cost/monopoly beaker price on Emperor level (in-game beaker price based on who knows it so far)

Your request from MIA - Wheel 4/120 (68) + Warrior Code 3/90 (51) + Ceremonial Burial 2/60 (34) = Total 9/270 with current value (153)

In return for - Masonry was 4/120 (86) ... hmmm ... :crazyeye: ... while Mathematics 8/240 (205) and therefore obviously the proposed technology.

:nono: Now, we understand that the initial technology values lower slightly but not to the degree of Writing 8/240 (137) ... so we can only think that you have set a test for us :lol: ... and that we have passed and indeed graduated from Haggle University with honours :smug:


So to business, interpreting your letter, we see that there are three serious options to be considered :

Mathematics (205) in exchange for Writing (137) and a small purse.
or
Mathematics (205) for the Initial Knowledge Trinity valued at (153) and a small purse.
or
Mathematics (205) for the Pseudo Great Library (290) :eek: which would require much compensation in gold from you ... in a large reinforced purse.

Which option and the weight of the purse are the issues ... we also do not expect you to send with accept trade items, since we will not until a trusting relationship has been formed, which is the first rule learnt at Haggle University.

These trade options all are designed to alleviate the tedium of researching those pesky commonly known basic skills, thus allowing you the freedom to engage in Happy Doughnut Hunting and concentrate on gathering as many scalps, that should irritate the irony, that you can from the Nutters.


May you and yours prosper ... we eagerly await your response ... and to reading your thoughts as to the trade option chosen and the weight of the respective purses ...


MIA

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/Feaurius.JPG
Feaurius III - Foreign Minister - (Official, No Longer Acting)
Points if you can tell me the actor, character and series the image is from

Please also send the contact details of your people or state the preferred method of communication ... I shall send you the details of my staff as we aim to be available in all timezones 24/7.

Looks good, Fe. Of course, all that math shows them we know how to work an abacus as well ;)

I just checked the gmail (which I NEVER do, but I was bored, and no one had posted anything lately), and it seems TNT are biting at the Initial Trinity offer, plus requesting 50g from us to round out the difference in Tech Values. But the Initial Trinity would come with a small purse, not an enormous one.
This all doesn't seem to jive with what Fe posted above:
1. Thoughts on gold value ...
>Medium Purse = 205-137 = 68 = 6*2 = 12gp
>Small Purse = 205-153 = 52 = 5*2 = 10gp
>Large Purse = 290-205 = 85 = 9*2 = 18gp

Unless I'm misreading these calculations (so difficult on my abacus!) we should only give TNT 10g. If we want to be a little generous, to give our relationship some future karma, we could offer 10 in a lump sum or 11 over 11 turns.

Official TNT Reply with save ... perfect timing :smug:


Greetings Feaurius III,

Love the pictures you sent. You look positively stunning. I've always wondered what a Greek looked like. There are legends in our land about a people called the Romani and you Greeks remind me of these legendary people. It is well that you included pictures as we cannot decipher the other scribbles on your message. It was a good idea to send a courier that could tell us what the message says. We have designated one of our people to be an *official* official to handle communications with your great people. We have dubbed him greekguy. Please feel free to send messages directly to him. You may also, of course, continue to send messages the old way.

We would love to choose the Great Library option but, alas, we cannot afford to send gold to you. We have spent all our gold on Doughnuts. We will accept the Initial Trinity of ceremonial burial, warrior code and the wheel along with a little gold from you (for our doughnut hunting). All that remains to be settled is the amount of gold. According to your figures the difference in value is 52 gold. Once the trade is made you will see that this is true since you will be able to do the math yourself. :) In the interest of goodwill we will begin the Haggling by asking that you include 50 pieces of gold in the deal.

We look forward to hearing from you soon regarding our latest proposal and we do hope to keep the haggling to a minimum so that we can seal a deal. :)

May your neighbors be weak.

donsig
Grand Vizier of the Ironic People


So they used the word haggle ... I feel that we can get something happening with this ... well ... it has potential.

I have no ideas what the gold to beaker exchange rate is ... so I'm open to the 7ish active citizens (and the shy one :p to input on the haggling.

My calculations of gold = 10% Beaker value ... has absolutely no basis in any economic rationale. ;)

I'm kind of dissappointed they like that offer. We will get Math one way or another, probably without researching it ourselves. I don't mind giving outdated techs to get it sooner, but I hate to give up gold because that costs us something real. It would be very bad faith not to continue negotiations, so we have to come up with something.

Here is my thinking - the 3 techs they want are worth 153 and are never getting cheaper. Math is worth 205 now, but we are in no hurry for it, and if we wait, then the price will drop to 171 then to 137. Donuts are currently researching it, so it will definitely not be more than 171 by the time we get around to it.

I'm not sure what that means exactly in terms of what we offer - 18g? I hope they don't accept that because I don't even want to give them that much. Mathematics is not useful to us except to get to Currency. The Wheel is useful to them so they know where Donuts horses are to pillage them.

That was just a lot of babbling with no conclusion...

I will be sending a PM to Greekguy in 10 hours-ish ... so open for discussion ... I will be stepping out to pub later ... but will post when home.


Hi Greekguy

What a wonderfully noble name, when Classical_Hero mentioned that you were the contact with the TNT ... our team did celebrate in your honour and raised a glass to your health :beer:

As the newly elected Foreign Minister I would like to inform you of changes to our diplomacy system.

We no longer have teams assigned to specific diplomats ... each member of the foreign staff are available to be contacted by any of our neigbouring teams ... this is designed to ensure swift responses to international issues ... and affairs :blush:

I will send you the list of brave MIAers, complete with contact details, when they have been employed into service ... why brave ?! :mischief: in addition of the cut and thrust of the quill and tongue our diplomatic warriors must undergo a small ceremony of initiation (that involves a goat, herbal remedies, feathers, flame and honey)

Also I would like you to consider getting AIM ... it is the only chat programme I have on my computer and due to slooow dialup DLing others is a hassle :( ... So I would like very much if you were AIM capable and ready to chat :D

Like the Twain quote ... he was an amazing man, a futurist and contemporaty and firend of my personal hero Nikola Tesla.

>>>

Enough banter ... to business

50gp is considered a kings ransom to us ... it equates to the risky business of cleansing two barbarian nests ...

We are of the view that 1 gold piece does not equate directly to 1 beaker of research.

Therefore we would suggest that since gold goes to the upkeep of buildings and units, that the accumulation of spare coinage is a process taking many turns ... Similarily, we prefer to look at the time taken for researching a technology as the meter of it's value ...

Bottom line and cutting the crap ... we offer 10gp ... as it would probably take us that many turns to research it ... In other terms a Small Purse.

This figure is also close to those of us who cavort with numbers and try to understand the beauty of the numerical dances ...

Definition of a Small Purse ... from the Logic of the Numerialisters :banana: :crazyeye:
= Maths (205) - Initial Trinity (153)
= 52 ... bigger by how many fingers
= 52/10 ... what is that in hands
= 5
= 5 *2 ... same again please
= 10gp
So this formular may give us turns of gold value for technology :wow:

There you go ... this is very near ... not yet concrete, may be raised a turn of gold or two ... but doubling this figure is not an option.

At your service

Feaurius III
MIA Foreign Minister

btw ... anyluck in the picture challenge I sent in the last post? :D



So feedback time ... how much we want to spend ... I need a limit !!!

Looks good to me - should I send the offer (with or without accept?), or do you want me to wait?

EDIT - sent the offer with 10g. I just had another thought - we need KISS' approval to make this deal since it "goes beyond monopoly beaker price". I don't think there will be any problem getting approval (especially since we will end up giving them Math, no doubt), but let's confirm - we definitely don't want KISS to be able to claim that we broke our deal

I may be late in weighing in on this, but I just had a thought, having read Robi's chat:

Screw the gold. We have hard data on Dnut's current research schedule. That should more than compensate TNT! I hope they don't go for the Initial Trinity cum Small Purse, so we can try our hand at intelligence brokering.

Have just sent ... titled Introduction and Gold

Sorry got home wonderfully drunk and keyboard uncapable :cringe: ... Shhhhh ... Not so load :D

Don't want to mention Nuts yet ... these guys are mega paranoid ... any mention of a Simonesque name will send them into twitching fits.

We want to sell Maths on for HBR.

Excuse to TNT would be confusion and suggest that it may be a coincidence or popped Hut.

Have PMed Greekguy

Titled - MIA/TNT Offer

Hi Greekguy

Just quickly

What is the status with our offer?

Are you going to get AIM ... if not could I respectfully request that I be sent a TNTer's with AIM.

I feel chatting is quicker to finalise written correspondences.

Feaurius III
Foreign Minister
(AIM - fe3333au)


I have also e-mailed it to their mailbox

This just in ... chalk up another victory to the Foreign Offices :clap:

Here is message and responce

MIA-TNT Diplomacy


Greetings again Greeks!

My nation has discussed and I have come to a decision. We will gladly trade the Initial Trinity for Mathematics. We are getting bored of discussing caculus and algebra all by our lonesome. Your participation in these discussions would be greatly welcome. But the matter of the gold payment to us is still an issue. As compensation for teaching you of the numbers, we would like to be given an extra 2 gold in addition to the 10 gold you proposed earlier. Thus, using mathematics, that comes to a total of 12 gold bars. We hope you will be willing to accept this fair offer. Our people badly need this for Prince Strider, who needs the money for his allowance. He's building a Starbucks, so if you give us the money, you will get a discount at Strider's Coffee Shop. :)

Please also include in your response the names of all your Diplomats, so we can contact them with future messages. Also, my AIM screename is Tidalwave178, although I'm on very rarely. I will only use that diplomatic channel in extreme emergencies.

Please respond soon. Talking with you is quite entertaining. Goodbye.

greekguy, TNT Greek Ambassador

Excellent I will send offical responce in due course (busy with RL this weekend :beer: ) ... but we agree :salute: to 12 gp

Cheers Mate

:goodjob: excellent work!

If our Foreign department keeps up this quality of work - thing may get rather boring over at the Defense Department...

Thanks for looking after things while I was away. :goodjob:

TNT sent (with accept), we give 10g. I'm not sure of game mechanics, so I need a little help here. Do I:

1. Accept the deal as is, then send 2g with accept?

2. Change the deal to 12g (will that remove their accept?), then send with accept?

I'm wondering if #2 might be better so we do not get Math this turn. As long as we have a promise to trade Math for HBR, we might be better off making Donuts waste another turn researching Math instead of getting it right away. Of course, we might end up delaying ourselves out of another deal, but let me know what our Foreign Department recommends I do with TNT's offer.

Congatulations are due to the Foreign Ministry! Great work.

@Chamnix: If no one else posts before you need to make a decision, if you follow your option 2, and we don't get MATH this turn, and there is a delay, we could always explain that there was a game-mechanical error, and thus everything will be fine for the following turn. I like stalling DNUT's research. They were such jerks. Anything to keep them in the dark ages for another turn or two is fine by me ;)

Send them without accept ... the Maths when we have it as a trade option ...

@Classical good to see you back ... have altered MIA's approach to diplomacy ... NO One is to be a specific diplomat ...

I want us as a team to be able to react to all foreign matters ... so if I'm not available then our rivals can at least make contact ...

All correspondence and chats are to be posted ... all chats are to be editted for easier reading ...

No-one can agree to deals without Foreign Minister being informed first ... the role of Foreign Office is to inform team of developments and proposals and to engage in haggling the small details of already agreed to Proposals.