View Full Version : Currently unimportant cities which used to be capital/important cities
brachy-pride Oct 30, 2005, 10:15 PM Aachen in Germanay, now unimportant, used to be the Chalemagne´s capital.
Ravenna in Italy, now unimportant, was Capital of the Western Roman Empire in the V century, Capital of the Ostrogoth kingdom, and capital of the Byzantines in Italy.
Braga in Portugal, now unimportant, used to be the capital of the Suebic kingdom in Galicia and Northern Portugal.
Toledo, in Spain, former capital of the Visigoths, before the islamic conquest.
It was very important during the muslim period, it had the school of translators which introduced many greek classics to the rest of europe.
Declined after the reconquista.
Can you think of more examples?
Post them here!:)
I guess there are many examples from east asia , but I dont know much about their history.
ps: I know important-unimportant is relative, but you get the point.
Mongoloid Cow Oct 30, 2005, 10:43 PM Sparta and Corinth in Greece (although admittedly the ancient cities were abandoned / destroyed and later rebuilt)
jonatas Oct 30, 2005, 10:56 PM Toledo, in Spain, former capital of the Visigoths, before the islamic conquest.
It was very important during the muslim period, it had the school of translators which introduced many greek classics to the rest of europe.
Declined after the reconquista.
Hmm, well if you're going to bring up Toledo, I think Cordoba should be mentioned as a far greater example of the same thing, since it was probably the richest and most opulent city in Europe during the Cordoba Caliphate, before centralized Islamic power in the Iberian peninsula broke up into petty taifa-states.
blindside Oct 30, 2005, 11:00 PM Lucknow in India is one I can think off.
Dr. Yoshi Oct 30, 2005, 11:05 PM Salinas, California: The capital of the 2-week California Republic, now the garlic capital of the US.
Avignon, France: Where the second Pope lived during the Great Schism.
Timbuktu: The great trading center of the Mali Empire, a state so wealthy that it deflated the price of gold all across the Eastern Hemisphere when Mansa Musa went on his pilgrimage.
Oak Ridge, Tennessee: Where all the research was conducted for the Manhattan Project.
Wotan Oct 30, 2005, 11:13 PM Paris, France. A great city before petty protectionism and the European Union "Common Agricultural Policy" strangled Europe.
Varwnos Oct 30, 2005, 11:35 PM -Thessalonike was more important in the past, at least as far as capital status goes. It was capital of Macedonia, post alexander the great's death. Also capital of the roman tetrarchy. It became capital another two times, briefly, first in the "empire of Thessalonike", formed by the despotate of Epiros after the conquest of Thessalonike, in the 13th century, and then during ww1, for diplomatic reasons.
-Constantinople also ofcourse used to be capital, to the byzantine and ottoman empires.
-Knossos (minoan palace city) today is in ruins, near Heraclion, in Crete.
-Rodos (Rhodes) was capital of the knights hospitaler.
-Thebes has been levelled by phillip II, and modern thebes has nothing from the ancient times. It was important after its victory over Sparta.
-Corfu (Kerkyra) was capital of the ionian republic, for iirc 7 years, after being a french protectorate and before becomming a brittish protectorate.
-Adrianople was once capital of the ottoman empire, and before that an important byzantine city, although less important than Constantinople and Thessalonike.
Mongoloid Cow Oct 30, 2005, 11:43 PM I don't think Constantinople counts as a currently unimportant city which used to be a capital/important city ;)
Other cities include: Merv (Turkmenistan), Hamadan (Iran), Latakya (Syria/Lebanon), Herat (Afghanistan), Urgenj (Uzbekistan), Dunhuang (China), Turfan (China), Kashgar (Kashi; China), and Khamil (Hami; China).
DBear Oct 30, 2005, 11:50 PM Samarkand--former capital of Tamarlane's empire, now just another city in one of the former Soviet republics--Uzbekistan.
blindside Oct 31, 2005, 12:07 AM Samarkand--former capital of Tamarlane's empire, now just another city in one of the former Soviet republics--Uzbekistan.
Add Bokhara/Bukkhara (however you spell it) to that list.
How about Adrianolple. Some fifteen battles/sieges in and around it but its hardly a major city now (its known as Edirne now).
Mongoloid Cow Oct 31, 2005, 12:12 AM Samarqand and Bukhara aren't as fallen as many of the others I mentioned, but yeah they're not in good shape nowadays. Varwnos already mentioned Edirne.
I suppose I better add to this list in this post, so: Brandenburg (Germany), Luxembourg (Luxembourg), and Gneizno (Poland).
Varwnos Oct 31, 2005, 01:12 AM Yes i didnt say that Constantinople is now unimportant, but it is just not a capital :)
Pristina iirc was capital of Serbia for a while, and it might become capital of a new country (Kossovo) in the future, infact currently this is a UN issue.
I am surprised that no one mentioned Venice yet :)
Although if the thread is just about cities which once were clearly great and now are clearly insignificant then most of my examples are not really good.
Dann Oct 31, 2005, 03:41 AM There's a ton of them here in China. Some are now still doing well as tourist destinations. (Hangzhou, Xian etc.) Some are regional centers. (Nanjing, Chengdu etc.) Some have become just ordinary cities. (Kaifeng, Zhengzhou etc.) And there are those who have disappeared, and are now just archaeological sites. (Qin's Xianyang, Niya etc.)
Dann Oct 31, 2005, 03:44 AM Other cities include: ....Dunhuang (China), Turfan (China), Kashgar (Kashi; China), and Khamil (Hami; China).
These are all along the Silk Road, right?
silver 2039 Oct 31, 2005, 03:48 AM Fatwar Sikri former Mughal capital of Akbar
Hampi capital of the Vijaynagar Empire
Patna capital of Gupta, Maurya, and Bengal
Mongoloid Cow Oct 31, 2005, 04:21 AM These are all along the Silk Road, right?
Yep. :bounce:
And to legitimise this post...
Bamiyan (Afghanistan), Ammonium (Siwah Oasis; Egypt) and Tema (Saudi Arabia).
Varwnos Oct 31, 2005, 04:27 AM There is also Trapezous (Trebizond). It once was very important, and capital of the empire of Trebizond (1204-1464 iirc).
Also Ikonion/Iconium/Konya was capital of the sultanate of Iconium.
Antioch was capital (i think) of the seleucid empire (or was the capital at Seleucia? possibly it had capitals in different cities at times).
MCdread Oct 31, 2005, 04:43 AM Cartagena in southern Spain was the New Carthage of the II Punic War. Not so significant today. Merida in the spanish province of Extremadura was the capital of Lusitania and the most important city in the region in the roman and early muslim times.
Naples was capital of Kingdom of Naples and later Kingdom of the Two Sicilies, and in the XVIII century it was one of the largest cities in the world. Nowadays it's still somewhat important, but really just another big italian city.
Kyoto was of course the Imperial capital of Japan. Nowadays is a bit lost among all those huge and vibrant japanese metropolis.
Novgorod would be another one.
Lübeck was the unofficial capital of the Hanseatic League, and today it is not much important in Germany. It's not even the most important city in her länder.
Antioch was once comparable only to Rome or Alexandria in the western hemisphere. Not anymore.
Most of the italian northern towns in the middle ages and Renaissance. I wouldn't say Venice, Genoa or Florence aren't important anymore, but Venice and Genoa used to have empires in the mediterranean and the genoese were the bankers of the spanish monarchy and their wars and conquests in the XVI century.
storealex Oct 31, 2005, 05:21 AM Roskilde in Denmark used to be the Capital from which the Viking Kings ruled. It was later moved to Copenhagen, and Roskilde is small city today.
~Corsair#01~ Oct 31, 2005, 05:59 AM Quite a few towns in Northern Ireland became important during the war (WW2), and then went back to being insignificant after. Londonderry, for example.
Lepcis Magna used to be one of the richest cities in Africa, although I suppose that doesn't count since it doesn't even exist any more...
The Last Conformist Oct 31, 2005, 07:23 AM Antioch was capital (i think) of the seleucid empire (or was the capital at Seleucia? possibly it had capitals in different cities at times).
It was the capital during the later part of the Seleucid empire. It subsequently became one of the Roman empire's most important cities. It's now a rather forgetable Turkish city, called Antakya.
Cuzco used to be the capital of the Inca empire - today it's one mid-sized Peruvian city among many.
TheDervish Oct 31, 2005, 07:30 AM Persepolis (a/k/a Takhti Jamshid) used to the head of the Persian Empire. Now you can see the ruins with tourists from all over the world. I didn't have to pay because it was Friday. There is ample parking. Not really an unimportant city. It's a world heritage site, but not really populated.
Dark Khan Oct 31, 2005, 07:53 AM Don't forget İsfahan.Capital city of Seljuks and Safavids.
Che Guava Oct 31, 2005, 08:50 AM Kingston was the capital of Canada for all of three years. It's still a pretty big city, but certainly not as important as back then.
Zany Oct 31, 2005, 10:01 AM State capitals are a great example. They used to move around a lot, appaently to the biggest city in each state. But then they just stopped.
Frankfort, Kentucky - This is probably the best example. A city no one heard of.
Springfield, Illinois - Come on, more important than Chicago? I think not.
Albany, New York - Not too small of a city, but nothing compared to New York City. The mayor of the city has more power than the governor IMO.
Sacramento, California - It is still a pretty big city, but what about Los Angeles, San Francisco, San Diego, Oakland, San Jose (it is bigger than everyone thinks)?
I could think of more but this forum is running so slow long posts are torture to wait for.
Marla_Singer Oct 31, 2005, 10:08 AM Paris, France.
People always make fun of me when I see it but I'm still sure about it. It used to be an important city in the past. It had even hosted the Olympics in 1900.
Aion Oct 31, 2005, 10:20 AM Germany has actually quite a tradition in strange capitals:
Aachen (capital of Charlemagne's empire) was already mentioned.
Regensburg was the nominal capital of the Holy Roman Empire.
Weimar was the capital of the first German republic from 1919 to 1933.
Bonn was the capital of West Germany from 1949 to 1990 (and the governement stayed there until 1999).
Technically speaking, there are dozens of other examples from Germany. As you might know, Germany was united only in 1871. Prior to that it consisted of dozens of independent states, some of which were extremely small. So for example Sondershausen (today 22,000 inhabitants) was capital of the sovereign Duchy of Schwarzburg-Sondershausen.
Mongoloid Cow Oct 31, 2005, 02:51 PM You mention Schwarzburg-Sonderhausen without mentioned Solms-Baruth upon Klitschdorf and Wehrau? :nono: tsk tsk ;)
And some more: Mainz (Germany), Nisibis (Nusaibin; Iraq), Nishapur (Iran), Novgorod (Russia); Vladimir (Russia).
Irish Caesar Oct 31, 2005, 04:44 PM Oak Ridge, Tennessee: Where all the research was conducted for the Manhattan Project.
Well, it still has a DoE nuclear lab based there, USA just isn't developing weapons like it was during WWII and Cold War.
I'll mention York, Pennsylvania, briefly the capital of the United States.
Plexus Oct 31, 2005, 05:04 PM Salinas, California: The capital of the 2-week California Republic, now the garlic capital of the US.
Sonoma was the capital of the California Republic and Gilroy is the garlic capital of the US. Thanks for playing. ;)
sydhe Oct 31, 2005, 05:51 PM Bursa, capital of the Ottoman Empire until they took Adrianople.
Palmyra (or Tadmor)
Cracow, formerly capital of Poland, still a substantial city.
Esztergom, capital of Hungary before Buda
Winchester, capitol of Alfred the Great, and later of Saxon England,
Rambuchan Oct 31, 2005, 05:59 PM Not so much capitals:
Machu Pichu ~ now in Peru, former Inca glory spot. Building on a large scale in a desolate, high altitude location. The Egyptians had it easy.
Cuzco ~ Inca capital - great functional, modernist architecture, well before its time, in both cities.
Thebes ~ Greek and Egyptian commerce, culture, arts, powerhouse city / capital.
Isandlwana ~ former southern African trading 'Mecca', sad to see first 5 pages of google littered only with references to the Anglo-Zulu war.
Calicut ~ former trading powerhouse on the south west Indian coast. Vasco's first landing in India was here and he got into a bit of difficulty over a deal with the local Zamorin, Chinese and Arab fleets flocked to here to sell / exchange their goods.
Dar E Salaam ~ now capital of Tanzania, was a major trading hub for the Indian Ocean, to almost rival Calicut. Slaves, hookers, gems and other funky stuff. Great animated film, a rare example of good African history for kids, was "Hugo the Hippo", strangely made in Romania in the late 60s.
And let's face it.....Rome just doesn't cut the mustard like it used to.
PS. Props for those who pulled up Timbuktu, Isfahan, Trebizond, Cordova et al. Oh and great thread!
Mongoloid Cow Oct 31, 2005, 06:05 PM Agra (India), Balasaghun (Kyrgyzstan), Turkestan (Kazakhstan), most cities on the Crimea (Ukraine), Urfa (Turkey).
sydhe Oct 31, 2005, 06:10 PM And let us not forget Versailles.
Rambuchan Oct 31, 2005, 06:47 PM Freetown just doesn't have the trade it used to.
luiz Oct 31, 2005, 06:59 PM Vila Rica(now named Ouro Preto) was the capital of the state of Minas Gerais and by far the richest city in Brazil. Nowadays it is tiny a city of around 40,000 people. It is a succesful touristical city, but it's modern significance pales in comparisson to the one it had in the 18th Century.
sydhe Oct 31, 2005, 07:33 PM Targoviste, capital of Wallachia under Vlad the Impaler and presumably the preceding princes.
Ghazni, in Afghanistan, the capital of a great medieval empire
Firouzabad as Kūh Ardeshīr was capital of Sassanid Persia, although that may not count since it was destroyed at one point. (Ctesiphon, the Parthian capital, is completely gone.)
Kahran Ramsus Oct 31, 2005, 09:18 PM Rouen. It is still a decent-sized city (and provincial capital), but it is nowhere near as important as it was as capital of Normandy in the Middle Ages where at times it was more important than Paris.
Mongoloid Cow Oct 31, 2005, 09:31 PM You said Ghazna, so I might as well add Ghur, Qalat and Balkh :)
Pasi Nurminen Oct 31, 2005, 09:58 PM Galveston. Prior to the Hurricane in 1902, it was the premier city in Texas, and on track to be what Houston is today. Then, of course, it was destroyed, and Houston took its place.
Steph Oct 31, 2005, 10:35 PM Paris, France.
People always make fun of me when I see it but I'm still sure about it. It used to be an important city in the past. It had even hosted the Olympics in 1900.
It's still famous, Marla_Singer is even from there, and everybody knows her on CFC!
DBear Oct 31, 2005, 11:23 PM I guess we should add to the list Konigsberg, capital of Prussia. It is now Kaliningrad, in a small 'Russian' enclave cut off from the rest of Russia by Lithuania.
taillesskangaru Oct 31, 2005, 11:38 PM Sukhothai. Was first capital of Thai kingdom. Now a small province. Even tourists don't paid much attention to it, most went to Ayutthaya, the second capital.
Aion Nov 01, 2005, 02:27 AM Nauplia, the first capital of independent Greece from 1830-1834. Today it's a lovely small town of 15,000 inhabitants and a popular tourist location.
Verbose Nov 01, 2005, 03:52 AM Alexandria...
Still around but nowhere near its former glory.
It even had it's own Great Wonder for Chrissakes!;)
And its Library should have been another one.
Verbose Nov 01, 2005, 03:55 AM Palermo.
Capital of the Norman kingdom of Sicily in the Middle Ages.
A city of 250 churches and 300 mosques according to one Arab travel writer, with 150.000 inhabitants at a time when Paris, London, Cologne etc. big European cities were languishing around 30-50K.
Varwnos Nov 01, 2005, 03:57 AM Also the village of Asterix. It was once capital (and sole part) of independant Gaul. Now it has been diminished to the status of a theme park.
Rambuchan Nov 01, 2005, 04:20 AM Oh yes Verbose, Palermo was quite a hotspot under King Roger.
Marla_Singer Nov 01, 2005, 04:54 AM And let us not forget Versailles.Well, it's true that Versailles isn't the centre of the French Monarchy since it's been more than 200 centuries there's no more monarchy in France. But anyway, Versailles is today a suburb of Paris it's totally part of the city... it's just that it doesn't exist really anymore on its own, it's today more a district than a city properly. By the way Versailles has never been a big city in the past, it has always been a town beside Paris. Now that Paris has grown bigger, it's a suburb of Paris.
Marla_Singer Nov 01, 2005, 04:56 AM Alexandria...
Still around but nowhere near its former glory.
It even had it's own Great Wonder for Chrissakes!;)
And its Library should have been another one.Alexandria is still today the largest city on the Mediterranean Sea. ;)
Xen Nov 01, 2005, 04:56 AM Syracuse, SIcilly; used to be a magnifencent city but never recoved from when they resisted Rome.
Varwnos Nov 01, 2005, 06:03 AM Delos was one of the sacred capitals of the ancient greek world.
Also Melos (another island city) was among the biggest in the era, but declined after the "melian conflict" (Athens vs Melos).
Smyrna was briefly capital of a byzantine successor state, post 1204, before it was annexed by the empire of Nikaia.
speaking of which, Nikaia (Nicaea) was capital of the empire of Nikaia, from 1204 to 1263 iirc, and today probably is not important at all. It was also where the first panchristianic forums took place. Its loss to the seljuks triggered the first crusade.
MaisseArsouye Nov 01, 2005, 07:02 AM Actually, Charlemagne had not only one capital but several and moved form one to another. Aachen is probably the most important, Tournai is the second one.
Liège was an important city during the middle-age. Between Xth and XIIIth centuries, Liège was called the Athens of the North because of its influence in philosophy, theology and technology. Liège never was conquered by Burgondy, Spain or Austria as neighbouring regions. It was an independant principalty from the IXth century to 1793.
BTW, Charlemagne's familly is from Herstal, a city next to Liège and now in its suburbs. Pepin of Herstal is Charles Martel's father, Pepin the Short's grandfather and Charlemagne's grand grandfather. He started the unification of Austasia and Neustrasia, the core of Charlemagn's Empire. Today, Stargate's P90 are still made in Herstal :mischief:
sydhe Nov 01, 2005, 10:54 AM Salem, Massachusetts was one of the 13 colonies' largest cities, and was the sixth largest city in the US in 1790 (which doesn't mean it was large by today's standards). It hasn't grown with the times, and now has about 40,000 people and is remembered mainly for witch trials.
Mongoloid Cow Nov 01, 2005, 02:42 PM Cambrai (France), Autun (France), Nancy (France), Bordeaux (France).
MCdread Nov 01, 2005, 03:50 PM Évora in Portugal. In the XV-XVII century it was pretty much the winter capital of the country, stage of the great Royal Weddings with the spanish/austrian Habsburgs, full of monumental architecture (for which it is today a UNESCO world heritage site), and had the second oldest university of Portugal, from where professors and students were very active in the anti-spanish propaganda that ultimately led to the revolt and regaining of independence in 1640. Ironically, the new dinasty, the Braganças, had a huge palace in a small town not far away where they lived and spent long times after they became kings, and from then on the city never regained her importance, although the university remained important until today.
Also Reims, where the french kings used to be crowned and the home city of the legendary football club Stade Reims ;), now, like the city, in the bottom divisions.
Many of the cities where medieval universities were founded also fell a lot in importance. The early universities were built in small country towns (except Paris) because the Church felt that the temptations and novelties of urban busy life weren't apropriate for students (how damn right they were, I'm the living proof of that :D). However, with time those cities earned a lot of importance, but then, after the mercantilistic and industrial revolutions, became smaller cities, living from tourism that come to visit the old architecture and the university, which normally never lost importance in the academic world. Some examples are Bologna, Padova, Salamanca, Louvain, Heidelberg, etc. Of course, others remained important, but typically cities that had political importance as well, like Paris, Köln, Vienna or Cracow.
The Last Conformist Nov 03, 2005, 11:58 AM @Ram: I already mentioned Cuzco. :p
Nippur. Once one of the greatest cities of Babylonia, now a little Iraqi village no-one cares about. Called Niffer in Arabic.
Visby. Once a leading trade centre in the Baltic Sea, now a little sleepy town mostly famous for having Sweden's only perserved medieval city wall.
Nara. Japan's first capital, now one city among many others.
Marla_Singer Nov 03, 2005, 12:12 PM Cambrai (France), Autun (France), Nancy (France), Bordeaux (France).How those cities have been more important in the past than they are currently ??? :confused:
What about Newcastle (Australia), Adelaide (Australia), Darwin (Australia), Perth (Australia), Cairns (Australia), Rockhampton (Australia) ?
Marla_Singer Nov 03, 2005, 12:13 PM Visby. Once a leading trade centre in the Baltic Sea, now a little sleepy town mostly famous for having Sweden's only perserved medieval city wall.I've visited Visby, it's a wonderful island ! :)
Varwnos Nov 03, 2005, 12:36 PM Marseilles (Massalia) probably was more importan in some past eras. Although in ancient times it was less important than the other main greek city in modern France, Emporion.
Btw Emporion means Trade ;)
Kafka2 Nov 03, 2005, 12:53 PM In Roman times, the English city of Colchester was a capital. In Saxon times, Tamworth was the capital of Mercia, while such Wessex backwaters as Cheddar and Frome were major royal centres. Kingston and Winchester were also capitals at one time or other.
Marla_Singer Nov 03, 2005, 01:12 PM Marseilles (Massalia) probably was more importan in some past eras. Although in ancient times it was less important than the other main greek city in modern France, Emporion.
Btw Emporion means Trade ;)Massilia was important as a greek colony/city, during the Ancient times, that's true. However Marseille is more important today than it was during the Middle Age. It's all relative. ;)
Mongoloid Cow Nov 03, 2005, 03:08 PM How those cities have been more important in the past than they are currently ??? :confused:
- Cambrai used to be one of the most important cities in the Frankish domain, due to the fact it was both a royal capital and an important bishopric.
- Autun used to be the capital of a key and important county of Burgundy (Autunois) and was an important and politically active bishopric in the ancient and mediæval eras
- Nancy used to be the capital of Lorraine, which made it one of the most important cities in northeastern France
- Bordeaux was the ancient capital of the Kingdom of Aquitaine, an extremely important kingdom before the Frankish era, during the Frankish era, and after the collapse of the Carolingian Empire. It also became one of the greatest cities in Europe during the 16th - 18th Centuries through trade with the Americas.
What about Newcastle (Australia), Adelaide (Australia), Darwin (Australia), Perth (Australia), Cairns (Australia), Rockhampton (Australia) ?
Have any of these cities ever been important? :confused: ;)
Marla_Singer Nov 03, 2005, 06:12 PM - Cambrai used to be one of the most important cities in the Frankish domain, due to the fact it was both a royal capital and an important bishopric.Today Cambrai is known as the capital of candies in France... and how are you so sure there's no more bishops over there ?
- Autun used to be the capital of a key and important county of Burgundy (Autunois) and was an important and politically active bishopric in the ancient and mediæval erasMaybe... it's never really been that much a big city anyway...
- Nancy used to be the capital of Lorraine, which made it one of the most important cities in northeastern FranceNancy is still today the capital of Lorraine and one of the most important cities in Northeastern France (It's the second largest after Strasbourg if I recall correctly).
- Bordeaux was the ancient capital of the Kingdom of Aquitaine, an extremely important kingdom before the Frankish era, during the Frankish era, and after the collapse of the Carolingian Empire. It also became one of the greatest cities in Europe during the 16th - 18th Centuries through trade with the Americas.Bordeaux is still one of the major cities in France today.
Have any of these cities ever been important? :confused: ;)At the scale of Australia yes. At the worldwide scale, certainly more than Autun ! ;)
mrtn Nov 03, 2005, 06:53 PM Sigtuna in Sweden. :)
The only Swedish city in the tenth/eleventh century. The first Swedish coins were minted here. One of the first Swedish stone churches was built here too.
Current population is 6050. And no, this does not put it among the biggest cities in Sweden. ;)
Varwnos Nov 03, 2005, 07:29 PM Wasn't Barcelona capital of Aragon? Possibly not?
Mongoloid Cow Nov 03, 2005, 08:01 PM Today Cambrai is known as the capital of candies in France... and how are you so sure there's no more bishops over there ?
I think there are still bishops at Cambrai, but they don't have the wide-ranging power and influence they used to have.
Nancy is still today the capital of Lorraine and one of the most important cities in Northeastern France (It's the second largest after Strasbourg if I recall correctly).
I thought Metz became the capital of Lorraine 50 years or so ago?
Bordeaux is still one of the major cities in France today.
But not on the world stage like it was.
At the scale of Australia yes. At the worldwide scale, certainly more than Autun ! ;)
At Australia's scale, Rockhampton, Newcastle and Cairns aren't that important. :D :king:
Steph Nov 04, 2005, 06:23 AM Bordeaux is still one of the major cities in France today.
I'm not sure Akka would agree, but in Toulouse we are used to say "Bordeaux is were all the dumbass the Toulousains have thrown in the Garonne arrive"
Kosez Nov 04, 2005, 07:09 AM Salona - where Diocletian build his palace. This palace was latter used to establish a city known today as Split.
Dubrovnik (Ragusa) - for some time competed with Venice. It was independed city for quite some time, although as vassal of Hungary and Turkish empire.
Dubrovnik was one of the cities where manufacturies first appeared in Europe, in middle ages it was important trade center. Today it is famous tourist destination, something like "Adriatic Monaco".
Opatija and Bled are not really big or famous cities, but in 19th century and in belle epoque they were famous tourist destinations among the rich and noble.
kronic Nov 04, 2005, 07:24 AM Germany has actually quite a tradition in strange capitals:
Weimar was the capital of the first German republic from 1919 to 1933.
It's so sad that even many Germans make that mistake. Weimar wasn't the capital. It was Berlin. Don't let you fool by the term "Republic of Weimar".
Aion Nov 04, 2005, 08:10 AM It's so sad that even many Germans make that mistake. Weimar wasn't the capital. It was Berlin. Don't let you fool by the term "Republic of Weimar".
Okay, you're right. Weimar was the seat of the governement. Just like the Netherlands have Amsterdam as their capital, but the governement is in Den Haag.
Princeps Nov 04, 2005, 08:15 AM Wasn't Barcelona capital of Aragon? Possibly not?
No it was Zaragoza, IIRC.
Varwnos Nov 04, 2005, 10:11 AM What about Trieste?
It used to be the main port of the austrian-hungarian empire, and it was given the status of a "free city" so as to boost trade and be competitive with Venice. Today it is part of Italy, but very much near its absolute edge, and is a small town.
Rambuchan Nov 04, 2005, 10:15 AM Good one there varwnos.
Did I mention Mombasa?
kronic Nov 04, 2005, 10:16 AM Okay, you're right. Weimar was the seat of the governement. Just like the Netherlands have Amsterdam as their capital, but the governement is in Den Haag.
No. The seat of the government was in Berlin, too.
Weimar only was the seat of the National Assembly that passed the new constitution (1919).
The government had to flee from Berlin to Stuttgart for a short time wenn Kapp and Lüttwitz tried to take over the power (1920).
BorgeoisBuffoon Nov 04, 2005, 11:10 AM I suppose Marietta in Ohio can count-it was actually one of the more important towns in the midwest after America just won independence, but didn't really grow in the same vein other places like Cincinatti and Louisville did. Now it's just a small town with an (semi) interesting footnote in U.S. history.
sydhe Nov 04, 2005, 03:16 PM Pamplona (Navarre), Leon and Grenada were capitals of kingdoms in what is now Spain. Valencia used to be much more important and the capital of the Kingdom of Valencia under the Aragonese crown.
Yoda Power Nov 04, 2005, 04:08 PM No it was Zaragoza, IIRC.
Actually it shifted at one point, so in the end it was.
Barcelona is still a pretty important city though.
Lund in Scania used to be a pretty important city. Christianity litterally spread to Scandinavia from it.
Pavia in North Italy used to be a capital in the dark ages and medieval times.
Hue in Vietnam was once the capital of the emperor, now only a mediocre city.
The Last Conformist Nov 05, 2005, 03:28 AM Lund's problem is it's been overshadowed by the nearby trade centre of Malmö.
Still, the University of Lund is still one of Sweden's best.
Varwnos Nov 05, 2005, 07:54 AM No one mentioned the capital of Lydia ;) Sardeis
Thorgalaeg Nov 05, 2005, 08:21 AM Pamplona (Navarre), Leon and Grenada were capitals of kingdoms in what is now Spain. Valencia used to be much more important and the capital of the Kingdom of Valencia under the Aragonese crown.
Dont forget Toledo. It was the capital of Hispania (all iberian peninsula + south france) in Visigoth times, an important city in An-Andalus (dont if you know about "The City of the Three Cultures") and it was the capital of Castile and later of Spain until 1561 when Felipe II transferred it to Madrid. Today it is a minor city-museum a bit like Kyoto i think.
Mongoloid Cow Nov 05, 2005, 02:48 PM Kyoto is by no means a minor or unimportant city though, last time I checked anyway :smug:
Thorgalaeg Nov 05, 2005, 04:29 PM Did i say it was unimportant? However it is a minor city since even in his own prefecture Kobe and Osaja are bigger and economically much more relevant. Lets no compare it with Tokyo.
Plotinus Nov 05, 2005, 06:16 PM Also the village of Asterix. It was once capital (and sole part) of independant Gaul. Now it has been diminished to the status of a theme park.
Ha! I like it. Of course, the cheapening of France's most important historical and cultural site in this fashion is an outrage. But they do serve remarkably good Boar Burgers.
I'm surprised that no-one has mentioned Axum, once the capital of Africa's most advanced civilisation and home to the largest navy on the planet, now a small town with lots of obelisks.
Also Malacca, where I was just a couple of weeks ago - capital of the most powerful sultanate in Southeast Asia, until the Europeans turned up and transformed it into a sort of depot for missionaries - now basically the Asian answer to New Orleans, but without the projects.
PrinceScamp Nov 05, 2005, 11:42 PM Memthis- in Egypt, and other egyption capitals, I'm not sure but Luxor used to be an important town once or twice in history.
Mogadishu in Somalia is now a free market with no one in charge.
Gold rush towns (yukon)
Dawson City, Yukon, Skagway and Dyea, Alaska,
BC gold rush:
Barkerville, a great historic site, the town was partialy rebuilt and is a big tourist destination that the provincial gov't has tried to privatise twice, so come see it before they try again.
Not quite as important but both ex-mining towns:
Faro, Yukon,
Cumberland, British Columbia
Cuchullain Nov 06, 2005, 01:30 PM I think Antwerp would fall into this category. Antwerp was once the financial capital of the (very rich) Duchy of Brabant.
Also, I don't know if it would qualify as a city, per se (more of a capital fortress), but what about Tara, ancient capital of the largely figurehead Irish Ard Ri (High King)?
Or better yet, Samarkhand, on the old silk road?
shahreevar Nov 06, 2005, 03:05 PM susa (now shushtar), the capital of Ilam, one of the Persian Capitals, now a town in northern khuzestan province in sothwestern Iran.
magritte Nov 06, 2005, 07:53 PM Avignon - site of the papacy for a good while in the middle ages
Cordoba, Sevilla and Granada were all rather important cities in Moorish Spain, not so important today.
Siena--Florence's rival, but far less important than Florence today.
Siracusa - the most important ancient Greek city in Sicily
Sparta
Sur (the ancient city of Tyre in Lebanon)
Patna - known as Pataliputra under Asoka the great, it was one of the world's largest cities at the time
Timbuktu
Zanzibar
taillesskangaru Nov 07, 2005, 03:26 AM Important cities on the silk road: Merv, Bactra, Khotan, Turfan, etc
Mongoloid Cow Nov 07, 2005, 04:00 AM In the past two posts, probably the only one not mentioned previously was Siena. :smug:
Anyway, to make it not seem like I'm SPAMming here: Astrakhan (Russia), Kazan (Russia), Kasimov (Russia).
Mr. Blonde Nov 07, 2005, 09:43 AM The first capital of Austria (became independent 976) was Neuhofen an der Ybbs, later on Korneuburg and then Klosterneuburg until finally 1146 Vienna became capital.
Israelite9191 Nov 09, 2005, 07:54 PM Benin City- Formally capital of a powerful trading kingdom, now a minor dity in Nigeria
Cahokia- Now Collinsville, Illinois, once the center of a trade network spreading from the Rockies to the Atlantic, now a small down-state town
Anchorage- Former center of porfitable Russian fur trade, now at the corner of American civilizaiton
Glasgow- Former major industrial center, now a moderate city in Scotland
Edinburough- Former capital of Scotland and center of Scotish philisophical movement, now second largest city in Scotland
Allepo- Important Muslim and Crusader fort city, now relatively minor Turkish port
Palembang- Former capital of Srivijaya trade empire, now regional population center on Sumatra
Marrakech- Former capital of two Berber empires, now one of several cities in Morrocco
Kumasi- Former capital of Asanti kingdom, now provincial capital in Ghana
Trondheim- First Norwegian capital, now minor city
Bergen- Temporary Norwegian capital, now second largest city
Gao- Former Songhai capital, now minor Malian city
Cuchullain Nov 10, 2005, 03:32 AM Paterson, NJ - Once a major industrial center, focused on the textile industry (and a major player in the anarchist movement in the U.S., circa 1900); now just a run down, black hole for politicians to throw money at, instead of putting any real effort into solving problems, and rebuilding.
The same goes for Asbury Park, NJ, which was once an important resort city, and summer retreat (especially for New Yorkers). Asbury Park is now little more than a ghost town.
Varwnos Nov 10, 2005, 06:05 AM One could fill pages naming important ancient greek cities than now are reduced to ruins.
I will only mention Metropolis. Where Superman came from, and today no one cares; the only relatively large town in the region (southern Epiros) is Agrinnion, with Preveza being the second largest there.
The Last Conformist Nov 10, 2005, 02:04 PM Cities that reduced to ruin are legion. The trick is naming ones that are still around, but have lost most of their importance.
Xi'an - still a city of note, but hardly compares favourably to when it was the capital of the most powerful state on Earth.
Novgorod. Once the capital of a principality that stretched to Barent's Sea and a major trade centre, now a provincial Russian city.
sydhe Nov 10, 2005, 02:37 PM Tyre is still around. I think Byblos is also. Sidon is currently the third largest city in Lebanon.
Plotinus Nov 11, 2005, 01:37 AM Edinburgh *is* the capital of Scotland.
Yellowbelly Nov 11, 2005, 03:01 PM The 'Cinque Ports' of South-East England.
Israelite9191 Nov 11, 2005, 03:02 PM But Scotland isn't independent.
Israelite9191 Nov 11, 2005, 03:04 PM Bath- Important Roman frontier town, important medieval town with, if I am correct, the highest medieval structure in Europe
AxiomUk Nov 12, 2005, 05:22 AM York, in England.
Previously the capital city, now reduced to a tourist resort. If that doesn't make it unimportant, I don't know what does.
Pyotr Veliky Nov 12, 2005, 05:39 AM The "Golden Ring" cities. Suzdal, Vladimir and such. Moscow was founded as a military outpost by the Prince of Vladimir, only to dwarf all other Russian cities in size and importance a few centuries later. Most of the "Golden Ring" cities are now small provincial cities of little importance.
bigfatron Nov 17, 2005, 05:55 AM I don't think anyone has mentioned Troy (apologies if I've missed i).
Also I would offer Sunderland, a medium sized provincial UK city, but 100 years ago half the world's shipping had been made in that one town.
SonicX Nov 17, 2005, 08:22 AM I think Antwerp would fall into this category. Antwerp was once the financial capital of the (very rich) Duchy of Brabant.I must disagree. Antwerp still is the center of the financial world and of the diamond industry. It's port is extremely important for Europe and continuously expanding.
It may not be a capital of a country no more, but it is keeping it's region filthy rich :goodjob:
taillesskangaru Nov 17, 2005, 01:48 PM Rashid, or Rosetta. Once the largest port in Egypt. Rosetta stone found here. Today a small fishing town.
(have someone already noted this. If so my sincere apologies)
Warman17 Nov 17, 2005, 07:40 PM Albany, NY. Although still capital, the governor lives in NYC, it's strategic value has diminished since the end of the war of 1812, it's port has diminished since airplanes.
Albany's population is continuing to decrease. Sad really
(Though to tell the truth, the size of the capital region as a whole-thats the entire Albany-Schnectady-Troy area has actually risen)
Squonk Nov 23, 2005, 01:38 PM I don't know if these were said before:
Antiochia/Antioch/Hatay: one of the most spectacular declines. One of the residences of Seleucid kings and Roman emperors and one of the biggest cities of the world, allegedly even of a million citizens, undoubtly over 200000; the historical capital of Syria, capital of a christian patriarchate, one of the first cities to be illuminated in the nights, later a capital of a crusader duchy; now one of many cities over Turkish boarder, not even a capital of its small region. Patriarchs have moved to Damascus long ago
Ani, once a capital of Armenia, now a bunch of ruins over Turkish boarder
Aszka/Acca/Acco/St Jean d'Acre: once the biggest city of Greater Syrian coast, the true capital of Kingdom of Jerusalem and entire Outremer; now an unimportant city
Gniezno, the first capital of Poland and sit of Polish primate, now not even a capital of its region; of other Polish capitals, Krakow remained an important city.
Lubusz/Lebus; once a very strategically located city ("the key to the Polish kingdom) and a capital of its region, now a village on German boarder
Wolin, once the allegedly biggest port on this side of Baltic, now a small city.
Carthago - once a great city, capital of Africa, now just ruins in the shade of its former suburb (just like Salona and Split or Aquilea and Venice)
Palmyra - just ruins
Amalfi and Gaeta; once two of the most important trading cities in Mediterrean, now small cities.
etc
Squonk Nov 23, 2005, 01:47 PM I guess we should add to the list Konigsberg, capital of Prussia. It is now Kaliningrad, in a small 'Russian' enclave cut off from the rest of Russia by Lithuania.
Actually, Lithuania has no other boarder with Russia but with Kaliningrad exclave.
Oh, I see someone's already mentioned Antioch, Krakow and Gniezno.
Oh, and there are also ex-capitals of Bulgaria: Pliska and Tarnovo (Tyrnowo in my language) and Vidin (Widyn).
Also, Mistra and Selymbria (Slilivri) and Dracz/Durres/Dyrachion
Xen Nov 23, 2005, 01:58 PM Ravenna would be a good one to add.
Xen Nov 23, 2005, 01:58 PM Ravenna would be a good one to add.
Mongoloid Cow Nov 23, 2005, 02:33 PM Ravenna good to add... twice :smug:
Aegium (Greece), Homs (Syria), Hamath (Syria)
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