Why do we have a clause that allows refugees? I believe that since this is a same site MTDG that once a team is killed in game that the team members are no longer part of the game anymore. I believe that once you are part of one team, you should not be able to join another team.

I would say that this needs to be removed.
0.3 - Team Switching

0.3.1 - Membership retention after Defeat

Description: Members of teams that were defeated in the current game are allowed to join the team that conquered them, if the team will have them. They may also join neighboring teams that they had contact with at the time of their defeat.

Definition: Neighboring does not mean specifically teams adjacent to them in game, more specifically it means teams they would have had the capability to travel to with their current technology.


Verdict: Switching teams is allowed if your team is out.

0.3.2 - Refugees

Description: Upon becoming a refugee according to rule 0.3.1, refugees may join another team provided that their team had in-game contact with the team they wish to join or the team they wish to join has/had in-game contact with at least two teams that had in-game contact with the eliminated team.

0.3.3 - Spoiler Info

Description: Upon joining a new team, you are not allowed to give out spoiler info to your new team that the new team you are on would not know about if you had not joined. If you have to give out spoiler info to prove your case, then do not post / vote in the thread.

Verdict: Red (Personal)

What is your argument? Because this is a same-site game?

I think allowing them to lurk should be ok - that won't do any harm, and it is fun for them. An argument for posting could be more acceptable, but still, they can't even give out spoiler info.

Is it up to the team how they handle lurkers?

You can't deny them the right to post ... as per the rules, it says any person who was on a team that was knocked out can join another team and post as long as they do not post spoiler info. Unless someone provides an argument against this, it seems fine.

I would suggest team continuity and culture. Every team has invested an enormous amount of time developing these. Call it bonding.
I'm sure there are some teams who would care less about my .02 regarding their team strategy.
I would prefer any lurker show they can be a positive member in a separate team lurker thread before they're able to post in the teams main threads Just my .02...

We have in our constitution, that for a refugee to hold an official position, then they must be nominated by a founding citizen ...

However for those of us who prefer a ... ummm ... shall we say "less structured" approach to their team ... then unfortunatelty this will not work ...

However I do not understand how refugees cannot bring intel with them ... think Germans WWII Rocket technology being secured by both US and USSR.

I would imagine that these refugees would still have access to their private forums after all ... or does it become the property of the defeating team?

I would imagine that these refugees would still have access to their private forums after all ... or does it become the property of the defeating team?
I would hope that once a team is killed off, that the private forum now becomes public.

I would hope that once a team is killed off, that the private forum now becomes public.
I am heartly against that.

Personally, I believe that any refugee should be able to share whatever information they want, be it spoiler or not. Teams could "bribe" people to get them to join their team, and thus get their valuable information. However, we have Rule 0.3.3 where refugees can't post/vote in anything that is even remotely spoilish. Alas, the teams voted yes to that amendment, so the point is moot.

Again, this is just my personal opinion.

Does that mean that a team has to accept a refugee?

I would hope that once a team is killed off, that the private forum now becomes public.

I don't think any of the private forums should be made public while the game is still going.

I'm a bit fuzzy on the whole spoiler thing though. If Team A conquers Team B and refugees from B join Team C does this mean the refugees can't tell their new teammates anything about what went on between teams A and B? Just what is the definition of spoiler info?

Perhaps we should allow those who become homeless the option of lurking all the remaining teams forums. Some might find that more appealing than joining another team as a refugee. I'm not saying we don't allow refugees if someone really wants to join another team, just suggesting we give those unfortunates a choice.

I agree with keeping the team forums locked until the end.

If a refugee joins another team then the old team forum should be locked to them as well ... that way any information given to the new team is from memory only ... Maps and other stuff would be prohibitted and policed by GA and RM.

EDIT ... this is a personal opinion not MIA :D

I would be for giving them a sort of "angel" status; since they are dead they are not active anymore, but able to see everything. So, access to all 4 fora, but not teammembers anymore.

Unless this means I have to ask Thunderfall to grant those teammember access. TF is too busy for that.

I don't think any of the private forums should be made public while the game is still going.

I'm a bit fuzzy on the whole spoiler thing though. If Team A conquers Team B and refugees from B join Team C does this mean the refugees can't tell their new teammates anything about what went on between teams A and B? Just what is the definition of spoiler info?

Perhaps we should allow those who become homeless the option of lurking all the remaining teams forums. Some might find that more appealing than joining another team as a refugee. I'm not saying we don't allow refugees if someone really wants to join another team, just suggesting we give those unfortunates a choice.

What is spoiler info? Something that an individual (from a different team who is a refugee on another team) knows because of being on another team, yet his new team doesn't know. He can't share this info and use it in discussions until his new team finds out.

This is to prevent teams 'auto' losing so they can share info together when they are out - a team's knowledge should be their own they find out, not others.

Rik: I can get them all access to the forums if they apply in their User CP, but I can't restrict their access for posting (that would be a good idea).

Sore losers can always give away info... being able to post or not has no effect on that.

I think it should be up to the teams whether or not they accept refugees or lurkers and if they do, they can device a procedure to do so.

Personally I'd lean towards allowing a refugee to join a team or lurk everywhere, with the obvious limitation on revealing information learned from their former team or another team they lurk. If mods have the capability to ban specific forums, then enforcement is simple and we don't need to trouble them to restrict all refugees from posting, just the ones who can't restrain themselves.

I like the idea of giving any refugees a choice…

"Angel" = lurker access to all forums. No posting allowed (except in the UN thread and their old team thread perhaps?)

"Refugee"= Can join a new team. They aren't allowed to post anything relating to their old team (except maybe procedural things… ie "we used to do it this way…" or "we found that doing this worked well…")

(This is essentially exactly what we have now in the rules – with the addition of the "angel" option... which I think could be very fun. Maybe the Angels could even use the defeated team's forum – which would still be locked to everyone still playing - to continue to comment on what's going on in the land of the living?)

This is not an MIA official opinion – just my personal take on it.

I like those ideas General W. I think there's another option of letting refugees participate if the team feels they can contribute in a positive way.

I may be the sole voice of dissent here, but so be it:

I look forward to welcoming new members to our team, if it comes to that. There is an accomodation in MIA's constitution for refugees, and it is well thought out. Refugees who join MIA will not be subjected to discrimination based on their immigration status, nor will they be precluded from having an active voice in civic life. Of course they will not be permitted to reveal anything that MIA could not otherwise know from in-game intelligence, but that holds for all teams and all refugees.

If teams have not yet discussed how to integrate refugees, I urge them to do so. Until this thread popped up I didn't realize that we were unique in having a well-defined system for integration. If anyone would like to work off our guidelines, I'm sure the Game Administrators could give the inquiring team a push in the right direction.

Standard Disclaimer: I speak for me and no one else.

Bloody computer :mad: ... other draft was better

I see a problem

As mentioned by Peter, MIA and I assume others have discussed how refugees will be treated by the host team.

It will be difficult to actively encourage a refugee to enter discussion and vote in polls and at the same time having a gag order placed on them.

A No Comment is answer in itself ... especially when the new player has been commenting on other topics ...

What happens when a refugee eventually holds an official position ? ... A player who knows the lie of the hidden land ...

Examples

Opinions of the other teams.
> We trust them, they have proven to be honest
> Watch them they are good negotiators
> Don't trust them ... they shafted us

Hazzards
> Don't go up north, we were wiped by barbs and suspect a hut
> Knows what lies under the black shroud

War Intel
> City XXX was defended by artillery
> The last attack when they wiped us out, was led by tanks
> We saw evidence to suggest aircraft

Other
> That hill will give you <resource> when you discover <tech>
> Our original city of XXX will become a settler factory and sits on a lux
> We were going to settle on this spot because ...
> There is an island in this direction.


Are these ALL spoilers ??

For these above (and a miriad of others) ... I see that there are too many grey areas for a refugee and host team to be aware of ... and if the refugee becomes a Minister, they will be constantly second guessing themselves due to the intel they may have with them.

So if we want a refugee to eventually become a full citizen there should be no gag order ... A player has a memory ... but cannot bring any hard copy with them ... access to previous team's forum is denied.


Easy Options for a player in a defeated team

1. Floating Angel ...
> UN and silent access to all forums

2. Specific Lurker ...
> UN and silent access to chosen team forum

3. Chosen Refugee...
> Mutually agreed access to a specific team and UN
> Locked out of previous RIP Team's forum
> Depending on the host team, has ability to become a decision maker and turn taker
> Has memory and can use it

4. RIP
> Un only

If the option of a gag order is still an option, I can unfortunately see the debate degenerating into a tediously endless legal definition discussion.

The above is simple and easy to administer ... keeps the fun factor.


Thoughts are Personal and not necessarily MIA

We could do something where they can only lurk and not post - you can't have them do nothing with no forum, honestly. Team reps can discuss this in their forums...

If teams have not yet discussed how to integrate refugees, I urge them to do so. Until this thread popped up I didn't realize that we were unique in having a well-defined system for integration. If anyone would like to work off our guidelines, I'm sure the Game Administrators could give the inquiring team a push in the right direction.

Standard Disclaimer: I speak for me and no one else.



Standard disclaimer; I speak for igor only

based on where we are now, any refugees aren't going to have much spoiler info so I'm not too worried about it

igor's concern is that the PM's will be flying to the old team members to screw the new team. thus the previously posted modest proposal

Now that we all are discussing this matter within our teams' fora, it is important to be clear about how the desired rules should be applied. Are we discussing the general ruleset or is this about each team's preferences?
http://civfanatics.net/uploads10/finalsig.gif

Well, there's this rule that we have now, so if anyone wants to propose a change, this would be the most opportune time to do so.

with both KISS and the nutters about to meet their makers probably about time this thread was bumped back up...

Hows about refugees have to wait 25 turns after elimination to start posting so any information would be irrelavent?

Well – here's my take…

The main reason we're all playing this game is to have fun. Not that we aren't serious about winning – it's just that winning is more fun than losing.

Whatever is decided, I would like to see it oriented towards being the most fun for the defeated team.

We've enjoyed a very clean game with everyone behaving honestly and honorably (afaik). The only problems that have occurred were legitimate mistakes and handled promptly and ethically – and often with self-policing.
It has been a real pleasure playing with such a great group of people.

I would like to see any defeated team members treated in that spirit.
What does that mean specifically? Only that I'd like to see more focus on what will be fun for the vanquished than on what follows the letter of our MTDG law.

I like our rules – but realistically – I'm not sure that any teams on the verge of defeat have a tremendous amount of spoiler information anyway. Information about relationships… sure. But I don't see why that wouldn't be fair game for discussion anyway. It would be perfectly legal for a losing team to broadcast all their dirt on every team the turn before they die… why is it suddenly illegal for them to talk about it the turn after their last city is gone?
I don't think a losing team should be able to bring screenshots or copies of maps with them to a new team – which is stuff they couldn't legally send to anyone right now either. But if it's all right for them to talk about it now – I think any refugees should be able to carry on with their new team.

If an action would give one team an "unfair" advantage over another team… it should be illegal. If it would be illegal for a team to do while playing – it should continue to be illegal after they've been defeated.
Otherwise – I say give each former team member the freedom to do what they think will be the most fun.

Just my opinion – not speaking officially for MIA in any way.

You do make a good point, General_W...I guess I agree with the part that refugees can share the information they have as long as it fits under the rules (no maps until possible, whatever), but definately the goal of refugees is to find them a new team first, and then deal with what they can and cannot say. People have good judgement.

Let them go where ever they want.

I would also 'lock' the vanquished team's forum until the end of the game ...

All 'legal' intel should come from player recollection ... no refreshing of memory should be possible ... that way a refugee will not be tempted to look through the filing cabinet from turns ago to get information about other teams or where barbarians or luxuries are situated.

Reason I mention the two examples ... a discussion maybe about where to send a scout ... I would think ... "up north is dangerous but ultimately rewarding" or some other such general comment would be acceptible.

It would be too hard to police topics where a refugee could not input ... they just have to remember to be general about locations and other 'illegal' topics ... however, they would have to know who their friends were and which teams they trusted and who used military tactics that worked ... just be vague about specific numbers of units

eg.
Allowed ... They took a city with XX and alot of YY
Not Allowed ... They had 3 regular XX and 1 elite, supported by 11 x YY

I'm fine with whatever you want. I'd rather not ask Thunderfall's time to close/lock/open fora though.

The teams have little knowledge that other teams do not already have or will -legally- know soon. I see no problem with chosing a new team for eliminated team-members. I can understand why specific teams do not want specific members on their teams and as long as they make it clear to me and the game-admins why that is I think that can be accomplished. However, once someone is accepted in the teams; elitism and different rights/duties is something that I don't like...

Well the vanquishing team could get the pick of the players? then the others could be assorted randomly, tbh im not sure

Ive felt the vanquished team members should get to choose where they go.

I have no problem with refugees joining any team but I do have concerns over what refugees can and can not say to their new team members.

There's bound to be some hard feelings and I think the refugees should not be able to speak about out of game activities or their prior lands for a certain number of turns like vind suggested. There is information that each team has that could be very valuable if given to a team that doesn't have this knowledge.
IE diplo views, city locations and its infrastructure, resource acquistion, luxs, rivers, chops, troop levels etc.

I'd say it's fine for a refugee to make suggestions in game regarding mm'ing, builds etc. but I have reservations about anything else. If the other activities are not limited then recruiting refugees becomes important for their knowledge.

thing about saying refugees giving out information once they become one. Well team members could give out that information prior to being defeated. Plus there is only so much people know about other teams that it really isnt that important, imo anyways.

I'm with BCLG. You can't control what information is given out. In RL, if you were a refugee, you would tell your new friends everything you remembered. The same thing works here.

Something also to think about is the fact that those who were active in the old team's forum, could very well be active in the teams that they go to afterwards. This could be very nice for some of the teams where only 5 or so people are actually taking an active part in, haveing more members to take some of the burden that have proved themselves already to be active could be quite nice and bring some of the fun back to those who are overworked. I don't know the activity rate in the other teams, but at least from TNT's forum and refrences by other teams, this could be good if we work out the specifics (Where I would say Memory alone, with disableing access to old team Forum, which would be something that Regent_Man and Ginger_Ale could do, right? This would make it so that there was no gray area that there would be unless we went with the "Angel" idea mentioned a while ago).

Here is what the ruleset currently says about defeated teams:
0.3 - Team Switching

0.3.1 - Membership retention after Defeat

Description: Members of teams that were defeated in the current game are allowed to join the team that conquered them, if the team will have them. They may also join neighboring teams that they had contact with at the time of their defeat.

Definition: Neighboring does not mean specifically teams adjacent to them in game, more specifically it means teams they would have had the capability to travel to with their current technology.


Verdict: Switching teams is allowed if your team is out.

0.3.2 - Refugees

Description: Upon becoming a refugee according to rule 0.3.1, refugees may join another team provided that their team had in-game contact with the team they wish to join or the team they wish to join has/had in-game contact with at least two teams that had in-game contact with the eliminated team.

0.3.3 - Spoiler Info

Description: Upon joining a new team, you are not allowed to give out spoiler info to your new team that the new team you are on would not know about if you had not joined. If you have to give out spoiler info to prove your case, then do not post / vote in the thread.

Ginger_Ale nor I have the power to do anything with a team's forum; only Thunderfall could do that. I personally think that the closing of the conquered team's forum and allowing members to say what they remember is a good idea. However, cutting off access to their native forum will get in the way of going down memory lane/remembering the good ol' days.

just leave the forum open, even if a team can see it what benefeits is it really going to have?

I guess someone could transfer information to another memeber in an other team. EX I am on team A you are on team A. Team A gets eliminated. I join team B you join team C. Team B attacks team C, in team A's forum i could get information from you about team C.

But there isnt really that much extra that people from one team know about the other that the team doesnt already know.

:nono: I totally disagree with BCLG100

I am sure that there have been cases where one team has had a period of friendship and even formal allianaces with another and that during that process information has been exchanged.

I am sure that in most cases this information (which was freely or inadvertantly given) and was relayed under the impression that it would be kept in confidence for the duration of the game ...

I would go on to suggest that if players were aware from the geginning that the defunct forum would be open and that refugees were then freely able to 'visit' and sift through archives ... then information exchange would have been totally different from the beginning.

I therefore request that all possible avenues are explored to 'lock' the forums ...

:hmm: surely if a player is assigned another team, then they automatically lose access to their original forum ... is it not possible to just reassign a player to another team and to revoke their 'membership' to the previous team ???
I recall this has been done when players have been 'removed' from the game for various mod/admin reasons.

Those that do not want to continue are just dropped from the game ... ie. they lose their original classification ... and can revisit the entire game when all forums are opened to the public?

Save 'memory lane' for when the game has reached its conclusion :yup:
... then we all meet in the UN and reminisce about good play and strategies and above all the fun we have all shared :beer:

I was just thinking for eases sake, any information they could pass along will be antiquated really.

Personally, I like the whole angel idea. That way, if one is eliminated, they could look at all the team forums and follow the game, while talking with their old team back in their old team forum about the current events in the game.

That's interesting, but can you trust everyone? I mean, currently, no one can view all the forums except RMx2, myself, and the mods - opening it up to people that have just finished the game who still have an interest and personal feelings (probably) about the outcome of the game could be...troublesome, potentially. The only way I see this happening is if the new 'members' can't post in the new teams' forums, no new members can join the eliminated teams...still, it's a stretch. It's probably the most interesting though. It seems that it'd be sort of unfair to the people still playing because you get to read all the forums while they are stuck with just theirs. ;)

yer, i dont think we should do the Angel thing, could lead to many slip ups.

I say let the refugees go wherever they may. Tell their tales, give their impressions of other teams/players. Their info and experience will make them highly sought after and popular ensuring that they quickly assimilate to idiocy, I mean the culture of their new team.

Besides, the existing teams will have the failsafe of refusing unsavory or suspicious refugees.

I don't like the angel thing. And that cuts against my natural grain :mischief:

Whats wrong with Once a team loses, its players are out of the game?

Whats wrong with Once a team loses, its players are out of the game?

to begin with teams might benefeit from the extra participation but also because maybe they want to see how the game turns out.

Whats wrong with Once a team loses, its players are out of the game?

Personally I'd prefer that ex-Team RIP members have the opportunity to continue with the game. i know from my point of view I have made some ... ummm ... 'real virtual' friends through the team dynamic and would like the opportunity to meet others.

BCLG100 makes a good point ... the more active members a team has is directly proportional to the fun and gaming experience.

Also it would be unfair and cruel for a 'serious' player being suddenly cut off from their gaming fix ... I know I'd have to enter some expesive therapy session if I was unable to either play or discuss the game while it was still going on.

I don't like the Angel idea because it is too susceptible to accidental or deliberate information leakage.


So regarding refugees, isn't it possible for ex-team RIPers to lose their citizenship and be granted another ... isn't that a simple way of locking the old forum until all are opened after the game ends ???

Whats wrong with Once a team loses, its players are out of the game?
I have no problem with that view. Nut this view appears to be the minority view.

So regarding refugees, isn't it possible for ex-team RIPers to lose their citizenship and be granted another ... isn't that a simple way of locking the old forum until all are opened after the game ends ???

since it doesn't look like we're going with the Angel idea, i think this should be how refugees are handled.

Hows about no one posts there and mods delete any accidental posts?

Hows about no one posts there and mods delete any accidental posts?


i think people are more bothered that people may copy and paste info.

I'm confused. Once a player's team is eliminated and he 'emigrates' to another team doesn't his 'citizenship' change therefore his access to the old forum go away?

I say we just allow refugee's to join any team they want to (as long as that team is willing to take them). Let any information they have go with them to the new team, it makes it more realistic. IE: The "looting" of diplomatic/domestic documents and real "refugee's" who escape to a ally.

i dont mind not being able to see the old forums but it would just make things more difficult if we had to get TF to lock/close the forum.

IIRC, navigation is the trade maps tech?

when a vanquished civ falls, it would be expected that the conquerers would have access to their government buildings and papers.

the conquerors should have access to the defeated civ's forums.

let the refugees do as they will

@ Igor ... Not if all the papers were shredded and burnt first :p

But seriously your scenario would then defeat the purpose of having all forums opened at the end of the game ... and would also open up the concept of 'censoring' or deleting entire threads by the defeated ... and maybe even replacing files.

I'd prefer to see all unflattering names that KISS have called MIA, rather than to miss out on that fun matey ;)

Wading through threads after the game will be a riot of fun ... one which will genearate much UN discussion and result in much mirth and congratulations on good play.

It is unrealistic to think that a refugee, upon joining a new team, will not be swayed by experience and knowledge resulting from participation up to that point. Censorship along those lines is unattainable. While ratifying the ruleset, I didn't really think it likely that there would be refugees, (I had no idea the game would last with such vitatlity!), and so I didn't really think too hard about the clause in the ruleset. But realistically, that clause is unworkable, and I'd vote for it's elimination.

If the refugee moves to another country, they obviously should not be allowed to post in their native forum. That 'country' doesn't exists anymore. As for the Angel Hypothesis, I'm not against it. Angels should be able to haunt the empty halls and graves of their former physical realm. But that would necessitate any living refugees to cast off their Group Membership to the dead team, and therefore lose access to their old forum.

I think that's a fair compromise. There is no need to restrict a player from lurking, if they are dead; and there is no need to restrict a player from being born again, on a new team. Group Membership adjustments seem to be the easiest way of controlling refugee privileges.

I just want the refugees to understand that we don't hold with voting and such.

I also don't want the top secret battle plans passed on out of spite.

OT-here's a shout of single malt to irongold

hey, i'm an idiot. I need things simple. so I like to restate what has been said.

If PG is proposing that the refugees may lurk their old threads, ok. I also agree they shouldn't be able to post.

My concern is that certain elements will share our plans with the other teams. How does one address the wolf in sheep's clothing?

I also don't want the top secret battle plans passed on out of spite.

My concern is that certain elements will share our plans with the other teams. How does one address the wolf in sheep's clothing?

Since 'leaks' would occur on MSN or AIM or such the only safegaurds we have are the honor of the teams and the watchful eye of the admins for 'spoilerish' information.

Once the bell is rung it can't be un-rung of course, but I would hope that the MTDG crew would understand that sins committed in this game will be stains on them in any other venture they participate in.

And I don't like the 'angel' idea. I'm with Fe, I would have DTs if I were cut off from the game. It is approaching a year. My how time flies when you are wasting it...

If info is passed between teams (when it shoudlnt be), most people would tell RM or GA. So leaks would cause major problems for the leaker.

:confused: As there have been differing views expressed ... what is going to happen ????

I think we need to set up a poll that each team will vote upon.

should maybe get a move on, KISS'll be dead soon........

should maybe get a move on, KISS'll be dead soon........
I know. I hate facing death like this at every turn. :rolleyes:

I know. I hate facing death like this at every turn. :rolleyes:


we can stop if it'll help ease your pain?

simon, just give in to the dark side, it will ease your pain

Apart from our resident spam merchants :p

Regentman what are your thoughts ?

This is what I am bound to follow and enforce:

0.3 - Team Switching

0.3.1 - Membership retention after Defeat

Description: Members of teams that were defeated in the current game are allowed to join the team that conquered them, if the team will have them. They may also join neighboring teams that they had contact with at the time of their defeat.

Definition: Neighboring does not mean specifically teams adjacent to them in game, more specifically it means teams they would have had the capability to travel to with their current technology.


Verdict: Switching teams is allowed if your team is out.

0.3.2 - Refugees

Description: Upon becoming a refugee according to rule 0.3.1, refugees may join another team provided that their team had in-game contact with the team they wish to join or the team they wish to join has/had in-game contact with at least two teams that had in-game contact with the eliminated team.

0.3.3 - Spoiler Info

Description: Upon joining a new team, you are not allowed to give out spoiler info to your new team that the new team you are on would not know about if you had not joined. If you have to give out spoiler info to prove your case, then do not post / vote in the thread.

My personal view: Allow conquered members to join another team that'll have them. Until they have new membership, they're allowed to view their old forum. If they join a new team, they lose access to the old forum. Upon joining a new team, they can say whatever they want/remember.

Of course, the ruleset comes before my opinion. It will need to be amended if its wording is now unliked by the teams.

out of interest what are we all arguing about?

there seems to be more folk saying that people can join another team if they'll have them.

Some people are saying that we shouldn't have refugees altogether (I.E. ME) some are saying that we should keep it the way we should, and some are proposing a super lurker that has access to all forums, but this does appeared to be shot down though.

Not that it matters a whole lot – but just for the record, I'm still a fan of the "super lurker/Angel" status… at least as an option for any refugees. :D

I think a team vote to settle this matter would be fine… but realistically, the Admins may just need to make a judgment call based on what can be done and what can be effectively policed – balanced against what will be the most fun for everyone involved.
There are just so many different points of view on this issue…

let's not forget that the ruleset already has a clause pertaining to lurkers.

So really, this discussion is about whether or not we want to amend the ruleset.

I'm fine leaving the ruleset as it is (though I believe it's not ideal) for simplicity's sake. However, if we choose to have an amendment vote, I will indeed vote for something other than what is currently in force.

For me it was more a case, which wasn't mentioned in the rules ... what happens to Team RIPed's Forum ?!! ... and my concern that Refugees would still have access to it.

Therefore I am suggesting that

Once a team has been defeated, all members of that team automatically have their original citizenship removed. These players have the option of becoming a 'Refugee' and gain membership to another team which they have had contact with in the game.

This way the forum of a defeated team will remain intact until the end of the game when all forums are opened to the public.

may as well do what fe proposes.

Is that a request for an amendment, fe3333au?

I would ask how difficult is it for the mods or TF to "lock" and "unlock" forums? If it's not a big issue then it seems like a good idea.

Well, what Ginger and myself could do is eliminate all memberships, effectively "locking" the forum (although we and any mods would be able to post in the forum). It would take TF intervention to actually "lock" it, which would still be viewable to old members, who just couldn't post in it.

I cannot lock forums.

OK so

1. If the loss of membership effectively locks the forum away
2. This process is easy to impliment
3. and in lieu of the recent rapid 24 hour turn cycle :eek:

... then indeed I propose the amendment. :)

OK so

3. and in lieu of the recent rapid 24 hour turn cycle :eek:



yup, perhaps some of your spies could see whats going on.

I have posted the amendment here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=174912). I worded it so that it could be stuck into an existing article.

thanks :salute: