A Comprehensive Guide to The Cumulative Values of Terrain, Improvements and Resources.

My new, more complete and updated, guide for terrain can be found HERE! (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=144029)

Contents:
1. Terrain Values
2. Worker Improvements
3. Resources and Improvements
4. City Placement

Here is a complete breakdown of the types of terrain and their food, production and commerce values. There's a lot more to it than what was in the manual. Having a more in-depth understanding of these terrain values can really help your strategy when deciding where to build your cities. I've also made a list of worker improvements and their value modifications for each type of terrain. I've included the bonus value of resources as well, even though it's already in the manual, for completeness sake. There are five factors involved when using terrain effectively: terrain values, terrain feature values, improvement values, bonus resource values, and civics and tech bonuses, all of which accumulate.

1. Terrain

Base Tile Values:
F = Food : P = Production : C = Commerce

Peak = 0 impassible
Ice = 0 impassible
Desert = 0
Snow = 0
Tundra = 1F
Ocean = 1F 1C
Coast = 1F 2C
Inland Coast = 2F 2C fresh water source
Grassland = 2F
Plains = 1F 1P

The following types of terrain, or terrain features, modify the base terrain values:
Jungle = -1F (-0.25 health)
Hills = -1F 1P
Forest = 1P (+0.5 health)
Floodplains = 3F (-0.4 heath)
Oasis = 3F 2C fresh water source (+2 health to adjacent city)
River = 1C fresh water source (+2 health to adjacent city)
Rivers give no commerce bonus to Snow, Jungle or Forest tiles.

*Note that when it comes to fresh water adjacent to your cities, you only get a total +2 health bonus to your city. It is not cumulative as it is with forest tiles.

Cumulative Tile Values:
The base terrain types have a cumulative value when terrain features are added to them.

Grassland/Jungle = 1F
Snow/Forest = 1P
Tundra/Forest = 1F 1P
Plains/Forest = 1F 2P
Grassland/Forest = 2F 1P

Desert/Hill = 1P
Snow/Hill = 1P
Tundra/Hill = 1P
Plains/Hill = 2P
Grassland/Hill = 1F 1P

Grassland/Hill/Jungle = 1P
Snow/Hill/Forest = 2P
Tundra/Hill/Forest = 2P
Grassland/Hill/Forest = 1F 2P
Plains/Hill/Forest = 3P

A hill with a forest has just as much production as a hill with a mine, but with added health benefit, which leads me to...


2. Worker Improvements:

Terrain Specific Improvements

Desert: Nothing
Grassland, Plains, Floodplains: Farm (only by river until civil-service/biology), Cottage, Workshop, Watermill (by river)
Hills: Mine, Windmill (all), Cottage (except desert, tundra, snow)
Forest: Lumbermill, whatever you can build on the base tile (and remove forest)
Tundra (with river): Farm, Workshop, Cottage, Watermill
Snow (with river): Watermill

You cannot build improvements except roads/railroads on: Desert, and Snow or Tundra (without river, hills or forest)

A detailed breakdown of how improvements modify terrain values:

Farms: flatlands - can build on resources
Tech: Agriculture, Civil Service (can spread irrigation), Biology (can build farms without irrigation) +1F
Farm = 1F
Best income: 2F (Civil Service)
Best possible food: 5F 1C (Floodplains)
Best possible food with resource: 7F 2C (Wheat +2F 1C + Floodplains)

Agriculture:
Farms can only be built by rivers.
+ Tundra = 2F 1C
+ Plains = 2F 1P 1C
+ Grassland = 3F 1C
+ Floodplains = 4F 1C

Civil Service:
Farms can be irrigated and "chained" away from river tiles.
Farm (irrigated) on river = 2F
+ Tundra = 3F 1C
+ Plains = 3F 1P 1C
+ Grassland = 4F 1C
+ Floodplains = 5F 1C
Farm (irrigated) not on river = 2F
+ Plains = 3F 1P
+ Grassland = 4F

Biology:
Farms can be built anywhere without irrigation, but do not get the +1F irrigation bonus.
Farm (not irrigated) not on river = 1F
+ Plains = 2F 1P
+ Grassland = 3F
It's better to just chain your irrigated farms, however it may be useful if you are on a particular landmass that just has no way of reaching fresh water and desperately need to increase your food production.


Cottages: any workable tiles except Snow or Tundra (Tundra with river being the only exception)
Tech: Pottery, Printing Press +1C for Villages and Towns
Cottage = 1C
Hamlet = 2C (10 turns)
Village = 3C (20 turns)
Town = 4C (40 turns)
Printing Press:
Village = 4C
Town = 5C

Civic: Universal Suffrage (Democracy) +1P for town, Free Speech (Liberalism) +2C for town, Emancipation (Democracy) +100% growth for cottage, hamlet, and village
Best income: 1P 7C (Printing Press, Universal Suffrage, Free Speech)


Mines: any Hill tile - can build on resources
Tech: Mining, Railroads +1P if a railroad is added
Mine = 2P
+ Snow, Desert, Tundra, Grassland = 3P
+ Plains = 4P
Best income: 4P (with rairoad)
Best possible production: 5P 1C (Plains + railroad + river)
Best possible production with resource: 7P 2C (Aluminum +2P 1C + Plains + railroad + river)


Workshop: flatlands
Tech: Metal Casting, Guilds +1P, Chemistry +1P
Workshop = -1F 1P

Metal Casting:
+ Tundra (must have river) = 1P (1C)
+ Grassland = 1F 1P
+ Plains = 2P

Chemistry and Guilds:
Workshop = -1F 3P
+ Tundra (must have river) = 3P (1C)
+ Grassland = 1F 3P
+ Plains = 4P

Civic: State Property (Communism) +1F
Best income: 3P (Guilds, Chemistry, State Property)
Best possible production: 1F 4P 1C (Plains + river + State Property)


Windmills: any Hill tile
Tech: Machinery, Replaceable Parts +1P, Electricity +1C
Windmill = 1F 1C

Machinery:
+ Snow, Desert, Tundra = 1F 1P 1C
+ Plains = 1F 2P 1C
+ Grassland = 2F 1P 1C

Replaceable Parts and Electricity:
Windmill = 1F 1P 2C
+ Snow, Desert, Tundra = 1F 2P 2C
+ Plains = 1F 3P 2C
+ Grassland = 2F 2P 2C

Best income: 1F 1P 2C (Replaceable Parts, Electricity)
Best possible production: 1F 3P 3C (Plains + river + Replaceable Parts, Electricity)
Best possible food: 2F 2P 3C (Grassland + river + Replaceable Parts, Electricity)


Watermill: flatlands near river
Tech: Machinery, Replaceable Parts +1P, Electricity + 2C
Watermill = 1P + 1C from river

Tech: Machinery
+ Snow = 1P 1C
+ Tundra = 1F 1P 1C
+ Grassland = 2F 1P 1C
+ Plains = 1F 2P 1C
+ Floodplains = 3F 1P 1C

Replaceable Parts and Electricity:
Watermill = 2P 2C + 1C from river
+ Snow = 2P 3C
+ Tundra = 1F 2P 3C
+ Grassland = 2F 2P 3C
+ Plains = 1F 3P 3C
+ Floodplains = 3F 2P 3C

Civic: State Property (Communism) +1F
Best income: 1F 2P 2C (Replaceable Parts, Electricity, State Property)
Best possible food: 4F 2P 3C (floodplains + State Property)


Lumbermill: any forest tile
Tech: Replaceable Parts, Railroads +1P if built
Lumbermill = 1P
+ Snow = 2P
+ Tundra = 1F 2P
+ Grassland = 2F 2P
+ Plains = 3P
+ Snow/Hill = 3P
+ Tundra/Hill = 3P
+ Grassland/Hill = 1F 3P
+ Plains/Hill = 4P
Best income: 3P 1C (1C from being near river, 1P from railroad, 1P from forest)
Best possible production: 5P 1C (Plains/Hill + river and railroad)

To chop or not to chop...
(The ability to clear a forest comes with the bronze working tech.)

As you can see, keeping the forest will give you better production in the long run than if you chop it down to replace it with farms or cottages. On a forest/hill tile you only stand to gain 1P from replacing it with a mine, which you would eventually get back when you can build lumbermills. However that extra early production + the 30 or so hammers you get from the chop is something to consider in exchange for that later equal production and added health benefit.

As for deciding on the 30 hammer chop (30 hammers being average - not sure what modifies the amount) or waiting for lumbermills, note that forests will grow only on unimproved tiles as long as there is a forest square nearby. Whether they grow over roads (they seem not to - I seem to remember someone mentioning that they use roads to curb jungle growth) or the chance of regrowth being calculated by the number of adjacent forest/jungle tiles is still up for debate. There is currently no way to plant forests later in the game as there was in CivIII.

The last thing to consider is the defense bonus and whether or not it is of strategic value to chop a forest or jungle. The defense bonus for both is 50%, and if that's on a hill (25%) you get a cumulative 75%!

An excellent guide for chopping can be found here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=138682


Summary: a breakdown of which terrain improvements maximize income/production/food best would be:

Best Food
Farm +2F (5F 1C best terrain) (+2F 1C with resource)

Best Commerce
Cottage +1P 7C

Best Production
Workshop +3P (1F 4P 1C best terrain)
Mine +3P (5P 1C best terrain) (+2P 1C with resource)
Lumbermill +3P (5P 1C best terrain) + health bonus from forest

Best General
Windmill +1F 1P 2C (2F 2P 3C best terrain) (1F 3P 3C best terrain)
Watermill +1F 2P 2C (4F 2P 3C best terrain)


3. Resource Improvements and Tile Bonuses:

These improvements can be built wherever the resource is found. The improvements are non-terrain specific, though on a random map the resources tend to generate only on certain types of terrain. All these terrain values and bonuses are cumulative. This means that the 2P bonus with the improved resource iron, copper, coal or aluminum + 2P for the mine + 1-2P on a hill can equal up to a maximum of 7P on a single tile.

You will notice these values are different from the manual. The manual seems to calculate what is added to the base bonus (so corn = base 1F and improving it adds and additional 2F rather than just stating that improved corn = +3F on top of the base terrain). I've recalcuated the values so that the base bonus is calculated into the improved value and reflect what you will actually get added to the base terrain. In the case of mines and farms I have NOT included the added value from the mine or farm because they can be modified by tech/civics.

Farm
Tech: Agriculture
Resources:
Corn = Base 1F : Improved 3F +1 Health (base bonus 1F + improved 2F)
Wheat = Base 1F : Improved 3F +1 Health
Rice = Base 1F : Improved 2F +1 Health
*not included is the value added by the farm, so what you will actually see is that improving corn, wheat or rice adds an additional 1-2F on top of the improved value given.

Pasture
Tech: Animal Husbandry
Resources:
Horse = Base 1P : Improved 3P 1C
Cow = Base 1F : Improved 2F 2P +1 Health
Pig = Base 1F : Improved 4F +1 Health
Sheep = Base 1F : Improved 3F 1C +1 Health

Camp
Tech: Hunting
Resources:
Deer = Base 1F : Improved 3F +1 Health
Fur (obsolete with Plastics) = Base 1C : Improved 4C +1 Happiness
Ivory (obsolete with Industrialism) = Base 1P : Improved 2P 1C +1 Happiness
*note, when these go obsolete you still get the tile bonuses from them.

Fishing Boats
Tech: Fishing
Resources:
Fish = Base 1F : Improved 4F +1 Health
Clam = Base 1F : Improved 3F +1 Health
Crab = Base 1F : Improved 3F +1 Health

Quarry
Tech: Masonry
Resources:
Stone = Base 1P : Improved 3P
Marble = Base 1P : Improved 2P 2C

Mine
Tech: Mining
Resources:
Silver = Base 1C : Improved -1P +5C +1 Happiness
Gems = Base 1C : Improved -1P +6C +1 Happiness
Gold = Base 1C : Improved -1P +7C +1 Happiness
Copper (Bronze Working) = Base 1P : Improved 2P
Iron (Iron Working) = Base 1P : Improved 2P
Coal (Steam Power) = Base 1P : Improved 2P
Aluminum (Industrialism) = Base 1P : Improved 2P 1C
Uranium (Physics) + Base 0 : Improved 3C
*these values do NOT include the added 2P from the mine, so what you get from improved copper, iron, coal or aluminum is actually +4P. Silver, gems and gold are an unusual case since they actually reduce the production from a mine by 1, however they do NOT reduce the production of the base tile, so adding a mine will only give you +1P.

Well/Offshore Platform
Tech: Combustion/Plastics
Resources:
Oil (Scientific Method) = Base 1P : Improved 3P 1C

Winery
Tech: Monarchy
Resources:
Wine = Base 1C : Improved 1F 3C +1 Happiness

Whaling Boats
Tech: Optics
Resources:
Whales (obsolete with Combustion) = Base 1F : Improved 1P 2C +1 Happiness
*note, when whales become obsolete you still get the tile bonuses from them.

Plantation
Tech: Calendar
Resources:
Banana = Base 1F : Improved 3F +2 Health
Dye = Base 1C : Improved 5C +1 Happiness
Incense = Base 1C : Improved 6C +1 Happiness
Silk = Base 1C : Improved 4C +1 Happiness
Spices = Base 1C : Improved 1F 3C +1 Happiness
Sugar = Base 1F : Improved 2F 1C +1 Happiness

4. Some notes about City Placement and Resources:

A city square always gets 2F 1P 1C. There seems to be ONE exception. You get an additional 1P when you build a city on top of a plains/hill. This seems to be the only time you get any bonuses for city placement. You get no bonus for any other kind of hill, and no bonus for a flatland/plains square. It must be a plains/hill. The other major advantage to building on a hill is of course the defense bonus. Hills get a defense bonus of 25%

When you build a city on top of a resource, you can, under specific circumstances, get a small bonus for that resource. That bonus is not equal to the value you would get by improving the tile, but it can be worth it strategically or used to get an early boost in production. You will be able to use that resource once you research the appropriate tech. If you build a city on top of stone, you will not be able to use it until you discover masonry, but once you do, it will be immediately available to that city.

Here is a breakdown of the types of terrain and bonuses you get for settling on top of a specific resource. Much thanks to Brokguitar for finding this out (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=138526):

Food Resources: When Bananas, Rice, Sugar, Sheep, Corn, Cows, and Pigs are on Grassland Tiles Only (no hills) you are able to produce One Extra Bread Slice more than normal when you settle on top of them.

Production Resources: When Coal, Copper, Iron, Marble, Oil, Stone, Aluminum, Horses, and Ivory are on Plains Tiles Only (no hills) you are able to produce One Extra Hammer more than normal when you settle on top of them.

Now if these same resources are on a PLAINS/HILL tile you can produce Two Extra Hammers more than normal.

Commerce Resources: When Dye, Gold, Gems,Incense, Fur, Silk, Silver, Spice, and Wine are next to a river, you will receive One Extra Commerce more then normal when you settle on top of them.


Other things to consider when placing a city:

Jungle/Floodplain: Health value is can be a big deal when placing your cities. A city surrounded by jungles or floodplains will get unhealthy very quickly. Researching Iron Working will give your workers the ability to cut down jungles. The other advantage/disadvantage to building on a floodplain is the very rapid growth. In the early game, this will lead to unhealthiness and unhappiness very quickly. Consider not building farms on floodplains right away in order to control your growth. In the later game, these cities will make great GP generators.

Rivers: Building on a river will not only give you extra health (+2 for a city adjacent to fresh water), but will automatically connect any cities on that river. You won't need to build roads to get that essential trade route early on. Oasis also count as a fresh water source and I assume also give a health bonus, though it is not specifically stated in the manual. Another benefit to rivers is the defense bonus (+25%) and you may find some cities have rivers on three sides, almost surrounding it like a moat. This on top of a hill can make your city nearly impenetrable. Also consider though, if you are going to ride out on the offensive from within your city, your units take the same penalty for crossing that river.

Coastal Cities: There are a number of factors to consider when building a city on coastal terrain. The first is of course access to the sea and an extra trade route. A coastal city can also become an economic powerhouse, especially with the Colossus wonder, which provides an extra commerce for every cities' water tiles. Building a lighthouse will also provide an extra food for every water tile within that city's borders. Though water tiles provide no production value, this can usually be balanced with worker improvements on the surrounding land tiles.

Roads: I'd also like to make a final note about roads. I'm sure everyone has figured out that roads do not generate gold the way they did in CivIII, but there is something more. A resource tile directly linked to a river does not need a road built on it in order to connect it to your trade network. The only requirement is that the river somehow links directly to your trade network.
Remember, Rivers = Roads.
Also, as mentioned before, railroads add 1P to both mines and lumbermills.

I hope people will find this guide useful. I will continue adding/correcting info as it comes. Special thanks to Heroes for his best income breakdowns and added civics. For more information, you can refer to Brokguitar's Photo Guide to Terrain, Improvements and City Placement. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=138526)

Thanks! This helps a lot as I couldn't find this info in the manual, and although some of this can be deduced from the civilopedia it's much easier and more informative to read the above. Is there a cIV War Academy yet? This one needs to be put there I think.

This is very good. It gives ma a good idea what to build where. Currently I'm building at random. Didn't know about forest on hill with a lumbermill being better as a mine. I was deforestering my entire empire. I also never even noticed that forests next to a river don't give the commerce bonus.
Thank you.

Great job in pulling thin information into an easy to read format. It will definitely help in the early/expansion phase of the game.

LIER!!!! WHY???? :nono:

why do you people keep doing this:
As you can see, keeping the forest will give you better production in the long run than if you chop it down to replace it with farms or cottages. On a forest/hill tile it is not worth replacing it with a mine early in the game because you will only get that 1P back and lose the health benefit in return.
from your own pages:
Grassland/Hill/Forest = 1F 2P
Plains/Hill/Forest = 3P

a mine takes away the forest, (and its one production) but it adds 2 production.
so a mined hill is BETTER then a forested hill.
the grassland hill mined has a food and 3 production (instead of a food and 2)
and the plains hill mined has 4 production (instead of 3)

untill you get to lumber mill, then it EVENS OUT (lumber milled is not BETTER then mined)
except you lose the health bonus.
but when chopping down teh forest you get 30 production in the city, so that's a bonus for mines that leaving forested doesnt give.

(edit: the post sounds angrier then it is. i'll add a smily face to make it read as intended)

Thanks, this is just what I was looking for.

Questions..

1. Cutting down forest in your own or neutral territory, gives you somewhere between 25 and 60 production in my experience. Anyone knows what it depends on? (Seemed to me like the distance from the city; but not sure.)

2. Forests regrow sometimes. Anyone knows how often? And what it depends on (e.g., no improvements, I assume)?

3. When you build a city, the terrain and yields change. What are the rules for that?

4. When you set worker to "auto", what rules they use? In my experience, they cut down all forests, and build somewhat random things. Any better description? :)

1. biggest difference seems to come from game speed. on nomral they give 30 hammers. on epic they give less, on quick more. i think it may also depend on map size (i've played mostly same size maps so not sure). have not noticed a difference from distance. though the forest does have to be inside your cultural borders to give hammers to your city.

2. yes to the "no improvements" assumption, other then that i dont know. not very often though.

3. yes, it always changes to 2 food, 1 production and 1 commerce. i have not yet built a city on a bonus so i dont know what happens to them when you build a city on them.

4. sorry, have not yet automated anything except "build roat to..."

a mine takes away the forest, (and its one production) but it adds 2 production.
so a mined hill is BETTER then a forested hill.
the grassland hill mined has a food and 3 production (instead of a food and 2)
and the plains hill mined has 4 production (instead of 3)

untill you get to lumber mill, then it EVENS OUT (lumber milled is not BETTER then mined)
except you lose the health bonus.
but when chopping down teh forest you get 30 production in the city, so that's a bonus for mines that leaving forested doesnt give.

You're absolutely right. I was thinking it was better to have a lumbermill on that square later on because the health bonus makes it marginally better, but to say it has better production (unimproved) was completely wrong. I don't know how I came to the conclusion that taking away the forest -1P and adding a mine for 2P equals out when it's actually +1P. LOL boy do I suck at math sometimes. :crazyeye:

Anyway, thanks RoddyVR. I'll fix that.

Oh and you don't get any bonus from building a city on top of a resource that I know of. I know you used to in CivIII, but I built a city on top of stone once and all it did was give access to that resource once I researched masonry. I know that building on a hill will not only give you a better city defense, but will also add 1P to your city later in the game. It does not do this in the early game though. I haven't yet figured out what tech research or civic adds that 1P to a hill city.

*edit I've updated the guide with some of these additions/corrections. I've also recalculated the resource bonuses because in the game they actually appear differently from what the manual claims. I'd like to point out particular attention to the bonus resources that need the mining improvement. I only just noticed that you only get 1P from mining gold, silver and gems. This is actually 1P less than you would get from mining a regular hill tile!!! Once I noticed this I decided to have a very very close look at all the resources to see what they actually do.

Edits: Added a list of contents to the tops as well as more info about health and a small section on city placement.

Windmills: any Hill tile
Tech: Machinery, Replaceable Parts +1P, Electricity +1C
Windmill = 1F 1C

Machinery:
+ Snow, Desert, Tundra = 1F 1P 1C
+ Plains = 1F 2P 1C
+ Grassland = 2F 1P 1C

Replaceable Parts and Electricity:
Windmill = 2F 1P 2C
+ Snow, Desert, Tundra = 1F 2P 2C
+ Plains = 1F 3P 2C
+ Grassland = 2F 2P 2C

Best income: 1F 1P 2C (Replaceable Parts, Electricity)
Best possible production: 1F 3P 3C (Plains + river)
Best possible food: 2F 2P 3C (Grassland + river)





Is this correct?
I see the figures correlalte with either 1F 1C or 1P 1C...

Which one, then?

Good info here. Thanks for putting it together.

Just to add on what could be a difference for production yield from chopping down a forest, I also believe it depends on what you are building, improvements in the city, and what civ traits you have. For instance, given base line for everything else, if you have a Drydock in a city building a ship and you chop the trees down, you get 45 production out of the tree.

Oh and you don't get any bonus from building a city on top of a resource that I know of. I know you used to in CivIII, but I built a city on top of stone once and all it did was give access to that resource once I researched masonry.

I don't believe you get the bonus unless you build the associated improvement on the tile (Quarry, Mine etc et al)

The only real bonus to building a city right on top of a resource is that you don't have to wait for a worker to road+improve that tile to gain access to that resource - it's yours instantly. (Even better is if your new city is connected via river to your capital :goodjob: )

It also means you don't have to station units to defend that resource to prevent pillaging by AI later. (Something I've found that the AI absolutely loves to do. :mad: )

I think those benefits are worth the lost +1P or whatever the proper improvement would have provided otherwise.

Cities founded on plains/hill tiles get two food and two hammers in the city square.

A really excellent overview and analysis of terrain and improvements! :goodjob:

Two minor points: I miss the Financial Leader attribut as a factor.The effect is another commerce, if the tile already produces two commerce.

For the sake of completlyness, you could also add the coast and ocean terrain, including the effect of the lighthouse building and the Collosus wonder.

A really excellent overview and analysis of terrain and improvements! :goodjob:

Two minor points: I miss the Financial Leader attribut as a factor.The effect is another commerce, if the tile already produces two commerce.

For the sake of completlyness, you could also add the coast and ocean terrain, including the effect of the lighthouse building and the Collosus wonder.

Thanks Pfeffersack! I've added a section about coastal cities to the city placement section of the article. That also reminded me that I forgot to include inland coastal tiles (which give 2F 2C rather than 1F 1C) and added that to the terrain section. I think I'm going to leave off on the Financial trait bonus though because it's been better discussed in trait articles.


[quote]Originally Posted by Stuporstar
Windmills: any Hill tile
Tech: Machinery, Replaceable Parts +1P, Electricity +1C
Windmill = 1F 1C

Machinery:
+ Snow, Desert, Tundra = 1F 1P 1C
+ Plains = 1F 2P 1C
+ Grassland = 2F 1P 1C

Replaceable Parts and Electricity:
Windmill = 2F 1P 2C
+ Snow, Desert, Tundra = 1F 2P 2C
+ Plains = 1F 3P 2C
+ Grassland = 2F 2P 2C

Best income: 1F 1P 2C (Replaceable Parts, Electricity)
Best possible production: 1F 3P 3C (Plains + river)
Best possible food: 2F 2P 3C (Grassland + river)

Is this correct?
I see the figures correlalte with either 1F 1C or 1P 1C...

Which one, then?[\quote]

I do see an error there, and it has been corrected. Under Replaceable Parts and Electricity the base modifier should be 1F 1P 2C not 2F 1P 2C. The rest is all calculated correctly. The difference between the best food and best production is the terrain.

Klyden: I'm not sure what all the modifiers are when chopping down a forest, which is why I didn't go too far into it. Thanks for that additional info. I'm going to have to test out different factors and see what you get for chopping. I wish I knew what the game was basing all its calculations on for that.

Vizzini: The main advantage to building on a city can also be a big drawback though. If your enemy take that city, then suddenly you are at the same disadvantage. If they take your city that's right on top of iron, then suddenly they have your iron and you can't pillage either. So, I guess I wouldn't say that advantage outweighs the production loss. What they really need to do is make it so that you can build a fort ON TOP of an existing improvement. Then maybe forts will be more worth bothering with.

I haven't yet figured out what tech research or civic adds that 1P to a hill city.

I have a very slight suspicion that it could be once you discover railroads.

Mines: any Hill tile - can build on resources
Tech: Mining, Railroads +1P if a railroad is added
Mine = 2P
+ Snow, Desert, Tundra, Grassland = 3P
+ Plains = 4P
Best income: 4P (with rairoad)
Best possible production: 5P 1C (Plains + railroad + river)
Best possible production with resource: 7P 2C (Aluminum +2P 1C + Plains + railroad + river)

And since as people have mentioned "the only benefit of creating a city on a resource is access to that resource" I would make a connection that it functions as like a mine/farm etc. And hence CivIV reads it as a "mine" and gives you the +1P for it.


My wasn't that convoluted :p

Yes, No? Well out? Give me some feedback on that idea.

Actually, I have figured that out, and the extra 1P on a hill has nothing to do with railroads or mines. You get an extra 1P for building a city on a Plains/Hill and it has nothing to do with tech, civics, resources or anything else. This extra 1P is inexplicable, it just is. I think it could have do with the fact that a Plains/Hill has the greatest amount of natural production that a bare tile can have, but why other types of terrain wouldn't have modifiers as well is beyond me. Perhaps it is a bug? Anyway, I have added this note to the guide in the City Placement section.

Yes i just realised, i was reading another article and it reffered to hill/plai nas always, whilst you had said up their civic/tech. :crazy:

Good article though, I actually however prefer blindly tumbling through my games.

A Comprehensive Guide to The Cumulative Values of Terrain, Improvements and Resources.
The following types of terrain, or terrain features, modify the base terrain values:
Jungle = -1F (-0.25 health)
Hills = -1F 1P
Forest = 1P (+0.5 health)
Floodplains = 3F (-0.4 heath)
Oasis = 3F 2C fresh water source (+2 health?)
River = 1C (+2 health, city must be adjacent)
Rivers give no commerce bonus to Snow, Jungle or Forest tiles.

Have you found proof of a health bonus from oasis? I was unable to get a health bonus in testing city placements.

Great overview!!! Really.

I'd like to point out some aspects I observed:
1- Your Guide is absolutely useful. However, I think it might be more useful a "terrain-type approach" rather than a "process approach". Actually, when I play I ask myrself "which improvement can I build here?" rather than "Where can I build this (any) improvement?".

2- As pointed out in the fine brokguitars's photo guide to terrain, improvements and city placement (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=138526&page=1&pp=20), buildin cities DO actually grant some boni (one extra commerce or one extra food or one or two extra hammers!!!). This may represent a significant production boost...I didn't analysed it yet, but there may be a resource whose improvement is not rentable (in FPC terms)/available and therefore justify the foundation of a city in its tile...any suggestions?

3- The chopped-forests hammer bonus varies indipendently of (or at least does not depend only on) the game speed setting. I've only played normal speed so far and I've experienced juicy 56 hammers boni!

4- In my last game I wasn't able to build a watermill on a floodplain...quite strange..and annoying


Thanks a lot and comments are highly welcomed!!

Great review!

awesome guide, thanks a lot!!!

The other advantage/disadvantage to building on a floodplain is the very rapid growth. In the early game, this will lead to unhealthiness and unhappiness very quickly. Consider not building farms on floodplains right away in order to control your growth. In the later game, these cities will make great GP generators.

In the early game the rapid growth is an advantage instead of a disadvantage. Cities close to flood plains are perfect for the production (by food that is) of settlers and workers. I love it when my first city is amidst flood plains. Unfortunately flood plains mean often that there is unproductive desert close by. And that is the real disadvantage (in the late game). But in the early game flood plain are very strong!

I made sure I mentioned that building on a floodplain is both an advantage and disadvantage. I think the point being that you sometimes need to do some balancing when you find your cities growing beyond your capacity to keep them healthy and happy.

Great overview!!! Really.

I'd like to point out some aspects I observed:
1- Your Guide is absolutely useful. However, I think it might be more useful a "terrain-type approach" rather than a "process approach". Actually, when I play I ask myrself "which improvement can I build here?" rather than "Where can I build this (any) improvement?".

2- As pointed out in the fine brokguitars's photo guide to terrain, improvements and city placement (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showth...&page=1&pp=20), buildin cities DO actually grant some boni (one extra commerce or one extra food or one or two extra hammers!!!). This may represent a significant production boost...I didn't analysed it yet, but there may be a resource whose improvement is not rentable (in FPC terms)/available and therefore justify the foundation of a city in its tile...any suggestions?

3- The chopped-forests hammer bonus varies indipendently of (or at least does not depend only on) the game speed setting. I've only played normal speed so far and I've experienced juicy 56 hammers boni!

4- In my last game I wasn't able to build a watermill on a floodplain...quite strange..and annoying


Thanks a lot and comments are highly welcomed!!

Thanks for some of the insights Kalder!
1. I decided to approach the improvements this way because when you click on a worker and (I forget, I think it's a left-click and drag) hover the mouse over a tile without moving him there, it displays a list of all the potential improvements the worker can build there. Since that info was readily available in the game, I decided to take the other approach in my guide.

2. I've added some of Brokguitar's info about settling on resources to the guide, with due credit and a link. :goodjob:

3. I've experienced varying numbers of hammers from chopping, but so far haven't figured out the modifiers yet. Perhaps this will become clearer as everyone has a chance to play the game more. Perhaps a thread about it should be started in the parent strategy forum.

4. That is quite strange. I haven't experienced that myself.

Have you found proof of a health bonus from oasis? I was unable to get a health bonus in testing city placements.

I haven't yet figured this out myself. I'm really not sure if there is a health bonus.

I've read the interesting thread "Worker first, then settler" in Civ4 Strategy & tip, in particular post #33 by woundedknight. He thinks that the chop bonus depends on the total production boni granted to the city where the bonus goes.
Ex.: If you have organized religion you get +25% to building production; if you have stone/marble you get +100% on some wonder production. Those increases should reflect on your hammer bonus...
Unfortunately I'm at work and I can't test this solution in the game...

Amazing, thank you :D

The Guide mentioned Floodplain Wheat. I have yet to see a Floodplain Wheat. I assumed that was taken out. Can anyone confirm that?

I've never seen wheat on a floodplain. I think they've rigged the map generator so that you don't get food on a floodplain because it's too overpowered.

I haven't been able to really check, but do you get the bonus production if you build a farm (for example) on a forested tile? The improvement makes the forest go away, but is that the same as chopping it down then building the improvement?

If not, then this is a critical thing to keep in mind. I've gotten into the habit of just building over jungles, but chop-building over forests.

You get the bonus production from chopping a forest if you build any kind of improvement over a forest that replaces it. You are probably just wasting turns chopping before you build the improvement.

I just wanted to mention that yes, you DO get a +2 health bonus for building a city next to an Oasis. I just checked this and found out. However, the +2 bonus from fresh water is not cumulative as it is with forests, so if you build near a river and have an oasis somewhere on the other side of your city you still only get a total of +2 health from a fresh water source.

Thanks for all the information, discussion and refinement. In reading along I double-checked in a saved game so can also confirm that cities by an Oasis get +2 heath.

You get the bonus production from chopping a forest if you build any kind of improvement over a forest that replaces it. You are probably just wasting turns chopping before you build the improvement.

I'd have to check, but I thought the # of turns was the same whether you chopped then farmed, or just hit 'farm' while the forest was still there. Also, when do you get the hammers when you go straight to farm? Is it at the very end when the farm is built, or after 3 turns like a normal forest chop?

...

On a slightly different note, does anyone understand exactly how irrigation is chained? Sometimes it seems to pass through a city, and sometimes not. What I mean is this: If you've got 3 tiles, the first is a farm beside a river, the second is a farm that has been chained, and the 3rd is a city. Sometimes it seems I can farm the tile on the far side of the city, but other times I can't.

I also had an instance when I swore that a windmill was passing the irrigation along. There were simply no other fresh water sources around the square. I haven't been able to reproduce that in later games though.

I found out the same thing in another thread somewhere, and so must retract my previous statement about chopping first being a waste of time. When you build an improvement on a forest you only get the chopped forest production after you finish the improvement, so it is well worth chopping the forest first in order to get the hammers faster.

I'm going to have to further look into how (or if) irrigation is chained through cities. I'm currently working on a pdf version of this guide now that most of the info has been corrected and verified.

I've just figured out that farms should be chained (not sure if there's a bug that makes it not work sometimes) through cities no matter what. The only exception is on Tundra which cannot benefit from irrigation.

I'm now almost finished a complete pdf version of the guide, which conatains a lot more info and pictures. Though I'm having a problem getting the file size down to under 500K so I can attach it from the CivFanatics server. I may wait for the patch before I post it anyway.

Edit: 100th post! :king:

Can someone sticky this?

I need this as a reference guide.

Actually, I have figured that out, and the extra 1P on a hill has nothing to do with railroads or mines. You get an extra 1P for building a city on a Plains/Hill and it has nothing to do with tech, civics, resources or anything else. This extra 1P is inexplicable, it just is. I think it could have do with the fact that a Plains/Hill has the greatest amount of natural production that a bare tile can have, but why other types of terrain wouldn't have modifiers as well is beyond me. Perhaps it is a bug? Anyway, I have added this note to the guide in the City Placement section.

It's not "inexplicable" or "bug". It's just like previous versions of Civ. Your city center gets the basic production of the underlying tile (not including any forest, which is removed when you settle), except that it always gets at least 1 hammer. Most non-forested tile types only have 0 or 1 hammer when unimproved, so the city center gets 1 hammer. The plains/hill starts with 2 hammers so it still has 2 hammers when you build the city.

I believe that a city on floodplains should generate 3 food in the center, for the same reason. And a city on an oasis should generate 3 food and 2 commerce in the center. I haven't checked those yet, though. Most often, it would be more useful to build the city in the desert next to the floodplains or oasis, rather than on it.

Thanks DaviddesJ, what you said made something finally click into place for me!

Actually, it does not generate 3 food on a floodplain or oasis. I was originally confused by this myself, which is why at first thought the plains/hill bonus "inexplicable" because it didn't work that way for floodplains and such (and this was also before I figured out you got a bonus for settling on resources as well). But since that last post you quoted I've figured it out. This seems a little counter-intuitive at first, but it makes a kind of sense; Because floodplain and oasis are terrain features, like forests and jungles, they are removed when you settle on top of them and are left with the base tile of desert. They have made a special case for hills which, is the only terrain feature type that remains when you settle. Your theory is indeed correct. :goodjob:

I confirmed that if you build a city on floodplains/desert, the floodplains feature is removed. So that explains why you don't get 3 food.

The situation with the oasis is different: you can't build a city on an oasis, at all! I guess the game considers it water, and doesn't allow cities on water (even though you can walk there).

By the way, something else that surprised me is that oasis/desert costs 2 movement points to enter.

I believe you get +2 health for having access to fresh water in the city radius. So the +2 health from rivers + 2 from Oasis would not be cumualtive. +2 the from oasis would only be noticed if there wasn't a river or lakes in the city radius.

I've been trying to figure out exactly how farms/irrigation work. Here are some observations/guesses:

1. You can build a farm on any irrigated tile. You can also build a farm on a non-irrigated tile which has a resource that requires a farm, but you don't get the +1 for the basic farm until you irrigate the tile (you do immediately get increased food from the resource).

2. Only flatland tiles that are grasslands, plains, floodplains, or tundra can be irrigated.

3. Eligible tiles with access to Fresh Water are automatically irrigated. Tundra can only be irrigated with Fresh Water. If you build a city on an irrigated tile, then other eligible tiles adjacent to the city (including diagonally) become irrigated, even without Civil Service. With Civil Service, any eligible tile adjacent to any irrigated tile (including diagonally) becomes irrigated.

Does this all seem right?

I believe you get +2 health for having access to fresh water in the city radius. So the +2 health from rivers + 2 from Oasis would not be cumualtive. +2 the from oasis would only be noticed if there wasn't a river or lakes in the city radius.

Yep, this is correct. :)

DaviddesJ: This all seems right to me, except you forgot to mention that you can't chain irrigation on Tundra, you can only build irrigated farms on Tundra when it is near a river.

Btw, I have a big update for this guide in the works. I've kind of put it on hold for the patch, and then work got in the way of me finishing it, but it will be ready very soon. I just need to find a way to make the pdf version smaller (and not sacrifice all the visual aids in the process), or break it up into seperate files so that I can upload them here.

DaviddesJ: This all seems right to me, except you forgot to mention that you can't chain irrigation on Tundra, you can only build irrigated farms on Tundra when it is near a river.

I meant to say that, but I edited my post to make it more clear.

I believe you get +2 health for having access to fresh water in the city radius. So the +2 health from rivers + 2 from Oasis would not be cumualtive. +2 the from oasis would only be noticed if there wasn't a river or lakes in the city radius.

Does the city have to be directly next to the river to get the health bonus or does it just have to be in the city radius?

Does the city have to be directly next to the river to get the health bonus or does it just have to be in the city radius?

The city tile has to have "Fresh Water" in its description, which basically means it has to be adjacent to a river (or a lake or oasis).

My new, more complete and updated, guide for terrain can be found HERE! (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=144029)

I didn't want to make a new thread if I could help it, but the new guide was just too huge to fit into a single post.