This is the second succession game being played by a group of folks from Realms Beyond Diablo. :satan: Well, this is certainly beyond Diablo, so here goes. :cool: Game arranged by Zed. These are the parameters he chose:

Players (in turn order):
Sirian
Carbon Copy
Charis
Zed
Jaffa
Ionpure

Turn submission:
24 hrs to accept/decline your turn, up to an additional 48 to play it (obviously promptness is a virtue, however)

Turn duration: 10 turns
1st round turns: 30-20-20-20-15-15

Civ: Japan
Map: Small, random landmass, random climate, restless barbarians
Difficulty: Monarch
Opponents: max random opponents
Victories: all

Other rules:
No worker automation
No save & reload

I'll start the game with the specified settings and post the result of my turn shortly.


- Sirian

Just checking in :)

Eagerly awaiting my turn :goodjob: - hope we'll have fun

Sayonara

Ion-san :king:

In the Year 4000BC, the Great Mother sent forth her call to the people of the earth. As Her Prophet, She chose a strong young bard named Siriansan :jesus: who spoke her Truth and was known by our people as as the Wisest. Siriansan did write many verses, and these are recorded in our great Rituals of the Sun, passed on from generation to generation through our tribal elders and shamen, and sung around campfires all across Nippon.

Siriansan did reveal that our people should cease to wander the lands, hunting, foraging, gathering. Rather, we should settle down and work the earth, bringing forth bountiful crops, and tend herds, which when bred properly could be sustained indefinitely. This was the Vision of the Great Mother :queen: that Her people should grow fruitful and spread across the face of the earth. So Siriansan did lead our people on the Trek to the Promised Land. Fifty Years we did wander, until reaching our beloved sacred valley here at Kyoto. The flower of our civilization was planted here, and according to the Mother's vision as told by Siriansan, we have come to tend our crops and herds.

Siriansan did age and perish :( for though he was the Prophet who spoke for the Great Mother :queen: he was not himself divine, but only a man. His wisdom and his verses guide us still, and so does the love of the Great Mother. For we are a religious people with deep faith, united by dedication and favored of the earth. A great Ritual was conceived by Siriansan's successor, as the Prophet was laid to rest. A day of Thanksgiving and Song shall be held on Midsummer's Eve each year, and our people shall feast on the bounty of our land and revel in the richness of our culture and sing praise to the Mother and Her Wisest.

Our people flourished in the rich lands of the Kyoto Valley. As our numbers multiplied, a war party from a neighboring people came into our lands. Many of our people feared, but the Verses guided us. Our leaders traded knowledge of the Wheel and two cartfuls of gold for knowledge of Masonry. This war party of people calling themselves "Egyptians" then wandered past our city to a minor tribe in the mountains overlooking our valley, and convinced them to pick up and serve Egypt as nomadic warriors. This frightened and disappointed some of our people, who knew of this tribe and had urged that we train our own war party to negotiate with them, but the current warlord insisted that we focus all our efforts on adhering to the Verses, which directed us to spread our people across the earth. For who needs to train so many warriors when the hand of the Great Mother Herself shields our people here in our sacred valley? And so it came to pass, to the marvel of all our people, that the Verses were true, and the hordes of Egyptian warriors passed peacefully through our lands and then returned south, without making war upon us, despite our seeming vulnerability. Surely only the Mother Herself could enact such a divine miracle.

As rapidly as possible, our workers irrigated our richest farmlands, built roads to them in and out of Kyoto, while our prophets and shamen directed the outfitting of Nipponese settlers, who did venture south to the shores of the Mother's River, where our settlement of Osaka was founded. This established our border with mighty Egypt, near their capital city of Thebes, and we did secure more rich farmlands. Nearby there are large herds of horses which we may train to pull our chariots, if we can tame them. Truly the Verses have sustained us and the Mother's own Hand guides our leaders, for if the Egyptians had seized this land first, the horses would belong to them.

"Now we must train our army", some said, but the shamen insisted that we needed no army. For did not the Egyptian warriors pass us by, turned away by the Great Mother? No one can harm us here in Kyoto. "Ah, but what of Osaka?" some said, and this did confound the Keepers of the Verse. There was great debate over whether the Mother's Protection shielded us only in our sacred homeland, or indeed everywhere our people should spread out to live. Though some called it blasphemy, our warlord decided that armed forces should be trained to defend Osaka, even as Kyoto continued to farm and grow, and prepare to send forth more settlers. At times our people grew so fruitful, we did have to spend some of our resources to pay for luxuries to keep them happy. Far better to open the Royal Treasury to satisfy our people, than to ever betray the Verses of Siriansan by removing workers from our fields to dance and frolick as entertainers, or harass our people with the collection of extra taxes.

So it became the Law: all citizens of Kyoto shall work the fields, there will be no idle loafers. Our warlords are charged with maintaining order, and they may do so by whatever means are necessary, so long as all our people in Kyoto are allowed to work and to farm. Only the wisdom of the Verses and Traditions, and the good sense of our warlords, can determine how much, if any, of our taxes in any given era should go to luxuries, but there shall be no dissent at their spending, for the Law must be kept in Kyoto. Our leaders may decide whether to work more in the fields, forests, hills or mountains, as they see fit, but all in Kyoto must work. This is the covenant laid down on us by the Mother, whose rich blessings shall be ours if we keep her charge.

As our shamen discovered the secrets of working clay into pottery, so our people set to unraveling the mysteries of metal working -- bronze. For even as we outfitted more settlers, and whilst no defense would ever be needed in Kyoto, our warlords did foresee a time when our people would grow so numerous, we would need armed forces in our sacred valley just to keep order among our OWN people! Yes, as incredible as that may sound, our people will one day grow that numerous. So sayeth the Verses. Yet shall we train our fighters in Kyoto with the lowly axe? With tools of stone? No! We shall shall know it is time to train armed forces when our knowledge of weaponry has improved enough to train warriors so mighty, they will be worthy of Her Approval. :ninja:

So our settlers set forth to the west, founding Tokyo on the coast, on a great plain amidst roaring herds of elephants. Our shamen discovered the wonders of elephant tusk, and Tokyo was made rich with fine ivory.

Our warlords approached the Keepers of the Verse, complaining of the amount of luxuries necessary to keep all our people content. The shamen did consult the Verses, and scanned the heavens for Signs from the Great Mother. When a brilliant shower of falling stars was seen, the Keepers directed the construction of a grand temple in Kyoto, which should become the site of the heart of our noble religion, where any Nippon citizen might be welcomed to devote themselves to the Mother. So it was decided.

As Kyoto continued in its perfect safety, our army in Osaka was commissioned and set to exploring. The warlord there, jealous of the piety and superior airs of the shamen from Kyoto, decided that Osaka should build the first Temple of the Mother. And so he rounded up all his citizens and forced the men to construct a temple. Many Osakans perished in the brutal and dangerous task, and whips cracked night and day. The Temple was built, but the citizens threatened to riot, and so our army in Osaka was hurriedly called home to keep the peace. Citizens in Osaka grumbled about the brutality of their warlord, but they did hold great pride in being the first Nippon city with a grand Temple, and their piety in following the visions of Siriansan is said to be unrivaled.

When the warlord in Kyoto heard of the plans of the Osakans, that they were going to complete their temple sooner through use of forced labor, he did draw up a plan to do the same. When the Keepers heard of these plans, a crisis befell our people as for the first time, a warlord was determined to be acting counter to the Verses. For was it not the Law of the Mother, as handed to us through the Covenent of Kyoto, that all in Kyoto must work the fields and forests? Bringing them home to force them to work on the temple instead, and to treat them harshly, that might be fit for the frontier, but not our sacred valley. The warlord was found guilty of Heresy, and he was skinned alive as a sacrifice to appease the Mother and assure her that her people had not broken her Law. For we in Kyoto must work the land. So it is sung in our songs, so it shall be. That no disasters befell us after this incident was taken as proof of the correct interpretion of the Verse by our shamen.

Tokyo, too, longs to build a temple, but first they need an army. :ninja: Will the whip crack in Tokyo some day? Many believe it is inevitable, as they long to gain the status and cultural influence of the other great cities of our people, and yet their farmlands are not as rich. Their army shall be trained in the use of superior weaponry, for our people finally did learn the secrets of Bronze. There is even talk of irrigating the lands around Tokyo and plans for construction of a great Colossus of bronze, but whether these are True Visions is not yet known.

The Verses of Siriansan have led us to great prosperity. We have three grand cities, two wondrous Temples to mark the glory of our Mother, and a mighty army stationed in Osaka. Our people carve many holy relics from the fine ivory of Tokyo, although we need roads to better cart these goods around our empire. Our scouts have reported that fine spices grow in the jungles to our north. Our shamen believe this is a Sign, that we should send forth settlers to this area to harvest this bounty in the name of the Great Mother. :queen:

Our warlords hunger for more troops to command, and the Keepers of the Verse have finally given permission to train an army in Kyoto -- strictly for the purpose of keeping order, of course, since no enemy will ever dare attack the sacred valley.

Our people prosper :love: and we have much hope for the future.


- Sirian

I've attached the initial save from the first turn. We got a brilliant starting location, with two wheat, a cattle, and on a lake! What a bounty. No gold bonus from river, so our early research will be a tad slowish, so some extra priority needs to be put on building roads near the capital, in all our good squares.

I decided to take the risk of the Farmer's Gambit. We started on one of the wheat, and rather than waste this wheat by settling there, I moved a square. This also got the cattle into play immediately, and I started in on first irrigating the wheat, then building a road there. After four turns at 3 surplus food and 2 shield, I swapped to the irrigated wheat and got to 4 surplus food with 1 shield -- but only for a single turn at 1 shield, as when you grow, you DO get the extra shields from the extra population added to your project. So the shields went like this: 2 2 2 2 1 2, as we grew to size 2 on turn 7. I built the road next, then moved through the city onto the cattle square, irrigated that, then built a road there. It was nervous time as the Egyptians moved around us to steal the goody hut to the north. I was QUITE glad to see a conscript warrior pop out for them, rather than tech or gold. No big loss to us, then, and I felt vindicated. If the Egyptians had set their mind to it, they could have waltzed into our city and defeated us, as we had no army. I built a settler, then another, running max science the whole time on Pottery, and running luxuries at whatever was needed to get one into entertainment, whenever our city was size 3. (You can't pull this off on Emperor, you have to build a military unit first, as you go into unhappy people starting at size 2, not 3).

So this is what we built in Kyoto: a settler, a settler, a temple. That's it, folks, no military. Big gamble, but our land looks small and there has been no hint of barbarians. By doing the growing part first, consolodation second, we massively improve our growth curve. Huge risk I wouldn't try if I weren't going first, because if it failed, I could start another game for us. If someone else had gone first, and I was coming later, I'd feel obligated to play it more cautiously.

Anyhow, after 30 turns, this is where we stand:

http://sirian.warpcore.org/civ3/succession/rbd-japan-2550bc.jpg

The red dot marks the likely site of our next city, unless that region is uninhabitable. Our city should try to get both spices in range, as there does not appear to be a lot of land up there. However, if there is more land, and the warlord in charge of the expedition so decides (after consulting the Verses, of course), another site may be chosen. We need to grab the spice area soon, lest the Egyptians boldly send someone up there to seize control of it. If the red dot area is a mountain or sea square, and all that lies beyond is more sea, then settle on the northern spice.

The blue dot marks a preferred city site, unless there is more land up there than I believe. We should get some kind of city up there sooner rather than later, as it looks like decently fertile lands. Do build all future cities on the coastlines, please, as our first two are landlocked.

The white dot marks a definite city location of moderate priority. The yellow dot marks a likely city site of lower priority, perhaps depending on what explorers find in the area of the green question marks -- and on what the Egyptians do. We cannot see their second city, so there must be more lands to the south, but on a small map, corruption is so large of a problem, we can't afford to be roaming too far. Better to secure all the land near us and get as many useful cities going as quickly as we can manage.

Whether or not to try for an early wonder in Kyoto is up to future leaders. The city can grow beyond six and has a TON of food, so we could run luxuries as high as necessary. We CAN start the pyramids at any time, but judging by what I see so far, the Lighthouse may be the most useful wonder, and we can't build that in Kyoto. :( Tokyo could try for it, or the Colossus, but it would need a lot of land improvement in a hurry to pull that off. Kyoto could crank workers out like nobody's business if they built a granary, grew to size 7, and churned workers every 1 or 2 turns at the "100% food conservation" threshold growing from 6 to 7 over and over again. Lots of possibilities here. We could even, I suppose, get the horses going and try to build an army to overrun Egypt. I'm not too fond of endless whipping whipping whipping in permanent despotism, and the only fast growing city we have is our capital, which can build units faster than we can whip them if we let it grow, but I've done almost zero exploring and we need to know more about our situation before making any final decisions about the sort of game we may try to play here.

Good luck, Carbon Copy. May your reign be prosperous and secure.

I've attached the original save from 4000BC here, for any spectators who want to try their hand at this start and see what they can make of it.


- Sirian

Sirian, excellent start :)

Before looking at where you founded I took a look at the 4000 save and thought where I would settle. I didn't realize that was a nice fresh water inland lake, and would have chosen a worse spot.

I think we're off to a very rapid start, ***if*** we don't get
simply wiped up by Barbarians or the Egyptians. Sorta have that
"if things look rosy, look more closely, something is dreadfully wrong" feeling :P With Osaka our "border" town I would change the worker to Spearmen immediately. Looking at the mini-world map in the corner, Egypt may just have almost no room down there. **if** the land to the north, dark regions, are for us also sea, then we might be stuck on a smal island with room enough for only one civ. That civ shall be us!! I'm probably being paranoid, but that's about the only thing I can think of early on that would mean a big problem. If there is room up north, the spot NE of your red dot might be a little less 'packed'. Hmm.... do you in fact TRY to moderately densely pack your capitol suburbs to keep corruption down? I tend for more of a '5 apart' strat, which seals in on first expansion and overlaps zero squares, but then again I have more corruption probs. (Nevermind, I just reread your comments below and saw the 'small map corruption issue'. I would tend to settle out-to-in, going for green before yellow dots.

Japan. Religious and militaristic. Cheap barracks and temples and extra leader chances. Throw in the fast Samurai with stronger defense than a Knight, and it's a good combo. A Samurai based golden age crusade would be fun.

Should be an interesting game. Better get some weed :lol: Good luck to CC on this upcoming turn, it could be rather important even though early yet.
Charis

:eek:
wow, this game got off to a fast start. I'll do my best. If you don't see my writeup and file at some ungodly early hour, then it will arrive sometime early next evening (both times EST).

Charis: the AI is simply not that aggressive early in the game. They WILL waltz into a completely undefended town from time to time after 3000 BC, and maybe the Aztecs (who have immediate access to their UU) would get bold, but that's about it. Now come Circa 1000BC may be another story, but that one warrior down in Osaka will deter the Egyptians for a bit longer, presuming we build units in the other towns. Barbarians, on the other hand, are madly aggressive, making a beeline for the nearest means of wreaking mischief on you, but we've passed the danger point of that problem -- and likely won't ever see any barbarians, as our land to the north doesn't reach far into the blackness (I could see partial shorelines that aren't completely clear in the compressed jpeg I posted).

Far better to build the worker and improve the land, as that city is dragging in just one shield per and this situation needs to be corrected ASAP, otherwise it doesn't matter WHAT you build because it won't be finished on your turn anyway. :p In fact, the growth curve of a second worker (then barracks and units) will likely outpace the plan you outlined, the only question being how soon the Egyptians MIGHT attack. Well, with room for at least one of their settlers down in the green area, I'm confident they won't make war on Osaka during Carbon's turn. The AI, sadly, has only one modus operadi in the early game, and that's to expand expand expand. Come your turn... well, maybe by then a little larger army would be a good idea. :) Once the horsie goes online, their interest in taking Osaka from us will be increased.

Kyoto could do all kinds of things, but unless it's building a wonder soon, one thing that should happen is to build cheap barracks before any more units (after the first one, which is needed soon just to deter aggressors). These first three units should be the ONLY nonveteran units we ever build, IMO. Nonvet units could squander our chance of an early leader, and there's just no reason at all with a Militaristic civ not to plan well enough to avoid building more than a couple early crappy untrained units.


EDIT: one more thing I forgot: militaristic civs build all things military on the cheap: barracks, walls, HARBORS, airports, coastal forts, SAM batteries. Building walls in Osaka, at some earlyish point, even though they will go obsolete once the city grows the size 7, might help calm some of Charis's anxieties. :) At only ten shields and no maintenance, I prefer that to building an extra regular warrior. Build walls, and veteran spearmen that can be upgraded on a regular basis. Warriors dead end in the early middle ages.

With so many of our cities going to be on the coast, and packed more than I would like (I prefer at most two squares of overlap per city, under normal conditions) simply because the choices are either to pack or to not build (and that's no choice)... it seems like those cheap harbors will play a vital role in our growth. I urge a rapid progression on toward mapmaking, for the harbors as well as an early chance to expand to any nearby islands before they are grabbed.

Generally on small maps (especially TINY maps) it is wise to build fewer cities of higher quality, because the biggest corruption factor is number of cities, and the penalty for extra cities gets much worse on smaller maps. Thus, I'd rather minimize overlap and look longer term, whereas on huge maps, it hardly matters, and most of what you do to win or lose will ultimately happen before Sanitation on those huge maps, so even bad overlap in some cases just doesn't matter. Well, it matters on small maps, but if your capital is at the heart of a smallish island, like this, what choice do you have? You build cities as far apart as you can, but you don't waste land, because you don't have enough to afford to waste any, and it's usually better to have a square or two of overlap, and be one square closer to the capital, than not. Overlap of modest proportions doesn't become a draining factor until Sanitation, which is QUITE late in the game. Coastal half-cities may never become powerhouse production centers, but they can build a library and all that sea trade racks the economy up a notch. In effect, you use the sea as "extra land" when you don't have enough land to suit.


- Sirian

Nice start Sirian :)

I checked the starting position too. Just one question: Is there any reason not to build the first city ON the starting position with wheat?

- all resources within the city radius
- you still get the wheat food bonus even if the resource is not displayed --> means one extra food right from the start
- saves one turn

Do I miss something :confused:

Edit: OK, found Sirians comments on the starting position and rechecked it. I could grew to size 2 two turns earlier when I settled ON the wheat (saved one turn, one extra food) but lost one turn on my way for the first settler because of the lower production- cattle comes later into play. Both starting positions seem quite equal for me ... just seems to be a matter of personal preferences :p

Yes, there absolutely is a reason not to build on wheat or cattle, unless there is no palatable alternative. The square will be forever stuck at three food, while otherwise it could be irrigated to four food and a railroad could take it to five. Building on wheat is not a complete waste, but usually there is a better alternative.

If not for the oddities of despotism, it wouldn't matter. After a change of government to something, ANYthing better, there is no more reason to try to avoid building on wheat or cattle. Here's the math:

No matter WHAT kind of terrain you build on, you get two food and one shield. (Wheat bonus would be added, but wheat is one of the few squares you can get to the magic 3+ food benefit from under despotism). It is thus desirable, in a sense, to build on deserts or on grassland without a shield, as you get either a free food or a free shield out of a location you otherwise would not. Building on hills can be desirable for the same reason: extra food, plus the defensive bonus doesn't hurt. Of course, this kind of bonus is not worth passing up a more ideal location, but it is something to keep in mind, especially if you have multiple options that otherwise seem like a tossup decision.

So now we have three squares which, when irrigated, yield 4 food each. That's a LOT of food under despotism, and the faster your city grows, the more trade and shields the extra population brings in. Being on Fresh water means extra growth, too. If we built on the wheat, that wheat would have been limited to 3 food, lowering our despotism food supersurplus from 2 2 2 to 1 2 2, and robbing us of access to that cattle for the first several turns, which would have slowed our growth curve by MORE than the one turn lost in moving before settling. Our worker would have taken longer to irrigate, taken longer to reach Osaka, and Osaka itself might have been built in a less desirable spot, either losing access to the horses, or squeezing one of our potential city locations right off the map -- certainly giving up the contest with Thebes for some of the disputed lands -- and it just gets more complex from there in trying to evaluate. Of course, I didn't know all this at the time, but the position I moved to turned out to be MUCH better strategically, even than my initial reasons for moving there. That I got a free shield out of that grassland was just a bonus.

Considering how close the shore to the west turned out to be, Tokyo would have been badly overlapped if I had plunked down right on that wheat. Do you realize that with its early rushed temple, Osaka could potentially catch up to Thebes in culture and take control of the dye? We need to get a library there asap and pour on the heat, unless Thebes completes an early wonder, thus assuring its dominance. Thebes has a palace, which was worth 1 culture per turn, but rose to 2 after 3000 bc. That's a total, by the end of my turn, of 40 culture. Osaka had 4 culture, after two turns of temple. So it's only 36 behind, and its temple will hit 1000year double-culture bonus in 1630BC! So it all depends on how quickly the Egyptians build their temple in Thebes (they, too, are religious), and how soon we improve Osaka, and whether or not either builds any wonders. I think we have a legit chance to take cultural control of the three disputed squares, including the dye. Of course, if Charis builds a spearman at one shield per turn, and another 2000 years pass without any more cultural improvements in Osaka, then Egypt will win that conflict. It's not really a major deal, and not worth taking any serious risks or costs to pursue, but there is a luxury hanging in the balance.


- Sirian

Yes your math is correct under the oddities of despotism, but there is still a kind of momentum since you could start with 6 food instead of 5 (7/6 when first wheat is irrigated). The momentum stays alive when the city grows to size 2 (cattle comes into play at this time if we build on wheat) - you get 9 food instead of 8 (11/10 when irrigated). Things change when you reach size 3 and after that there will be 1 food more (as you described, until the government is changed).

Anyway - the worker will need a bit more time for irrigation (you can still irrigate the wheat next to the city right from the start). And of course the spot you chose really turned out to be MUCH strategically better.

Very good start :)

Getting closer, but you still overlooked one thing. If we build on the first wheat, the cattle does NOT come into play when we grow to size 2. Borders expand based on culture and would take ten turns. So we'd be stuck with a grassland or forest for several turns as our second production square, pending the growth in cultural control range, and there goes the surplus in food you're calculating. We'd probably be size 4 before the settler was built, or else slow the extra food to trade it for shields anyway. A forest would give us the shields we'd be missing but drop the food rate down to 4 surplus. To get the cattle online sooner, the worker would have to cross the grassland without building a road, then double back to get the road before moving on to Osaka, muchly delaying land improvement at Osaka, with implications that start to mount past my ability to enumerate entirely.

Still, it IS a close call. Where it won't be as close is down the line, with the city at size 8+, all the grassland taken, and able to get one extra forest or mined hill in the mix and still maintain the highest available growth rates. Despotism lasts a long long time, and as vital to the growth curve as early efficiency is, it's not the only consideration. This is why it's never worthwhile to whip in your capital unless all you have is floodplains with no hope of decent shield output. It's more valuable to be larger sooner. The more corruption, the more useful forced labor -- also useful in cities in pitiful shield counts but lots of food, regardless of corruption. I'm not entirely sure if I can spell it all out, but even ignoring the larger picture of strategic positioning and looking just at those first 30 turns and the three cities involved, you could try playing it out different ways just as an exercise, and see where the total package stands in 2550, to see whether it really is a tossup or not. It's difficult to project ahead more than about ten turns, but there is the growth curve of all three cities, based on their land, proximity and likely results of workers, etc etc. The main strength of my move as compared to the other would be how soon irrigated plains and wheat come online at Osaka, and the position of Osaka itself. That still doesn't come into play on my original decision to move a square, but it would factor in your evaluation of any alternative results you achieve by way of trying other options.

Efficiency options in the early game are perhaps the easiest to examine, and still there are a lot of variables to account for, including luck, and also including "intuitive" understanding of the terrain creation engine in seeing how it lays out terrain, to have a better sense from the lay of mountains, rivers, lakes, etc, as to what the LIKELY shape and quality of nearby lands may be. I say intuitive because I have developed such a sense but can in no way explain it yet, because I'm leaping across missing or incomplete data to conclusions of "probable" situations, knowing that more often than not, I'll do better thereby.

I've actually tried the build-on-the-wheat option, you see, in my first game -- and concluded, as with many other things in that game, that my leftover impressions from Civ1 and Civ2 were largely faulty in regard to civ3. I won't build on wheat or cattle early in a game any more unless I'm convinced that all other options are markedly inferior in some regard.

It's a Virgo thing, paying so much attention to minutiae. :) My friends just put up with it, and maybe let me know gently if I'm getting out of hand and annoying them with too much talk about it. :)


- Sirian

I've been under some ridiculous time restraints. But here it is, my 20. No time to write any chronicles, so here's just my notes, almost verbatim

2510 BC
-Nothing

2470 BC
-Nothing

2430 BC
-Osaka cultural expansion, horsie now in our borders
-Kyoto to size 4, luxuries increased to 20% to avoid rioting

2390 BC
-Kyoto finishes spearman, trains settler, luxuries backed down to zero
-The worker by Osaka finishes irrigation, starts building a road

2350 BC
-Nothing

2310 BC
-2(!!) Barbs appear from the northwest, heading for Kyoto. Briefly consider changing production to a second spear, but decide to risk continuing with the settler.
-Tokyo finishes a spearman, he is sent to the north to investigate

2270 BC
-3rd Barb seen heading towards Kyoto from NW
-Osaka completes worker, begin moving him to irrigate the second wheat.
-Road to Osaka finished, the worker sent to build a road to the horsie

2230 BC
-Civil Disorder in Kyoto (oops), luxuries to 10% to stop rioting, no laborers taken out of production
-Irrigation/roads by Osaka started
-Spearman in Kyoto kills both of the first two barbarians easily, becomes a veteran.
-Palace expanded for the first time. I plant a lawn in front of our stone hut
-The spearman from Tokyo spots the barb camp to the northwest

2190 BC
-3rd barb by Kyoto killed, spearman becomes elite :)
-Settler in Kyoto finished, sent down to Osaka to eventually settle in yellow dot
-The red dot is seen to be mountains with only those two spices as the only two habitable squares. A hill directly adjacent to the barbs is also spotted (along with another spice directly to the north of it), spearman will sit on that hill and farm the barbs while it's convenient.

2150 BC
-Road to the horsie is complete, we can now build chariots
-2 egyptian warriors cross our border heading towards Osaka (!!), I contact them, but am only given the option of demanding their withdrawal or declaring war. Probably hopeless, but maybe they're after something besides Osaka. Probably not.
-Kyoto dispatches elite spearman to Osaka, but won't get there until 1 turn after the Egyptians. I can't move my settler out of Osaka without leaving it completely undefended versus the warriors (Why was Osaka built on the far side of the river from Kyoto, anyhow?)

2110 BC
-Egypt declares war (big surprise)
-Osaka captured (but not razed due to the temple, thank you Sirian-san!), but the settler is also captured (DAMN DAMN DAMN). Spearman from Kyoto will take another turn to reach Osaka due to its capture.

2070 BC
-Tokyo completes a spearman, begins another. I start to move him cross-country towards Osaka.
-Only one of the two warriors is garrisoned in Osaka and he's injured, good news. The other one is currently one square NW of Osaka
-Osaka retaken by elite spear, the settler-turned-2 workers are also recovered, but due to the river situation can't escape far enough to avoid recapture, so they are fortified.
-Our two workers are teamed up to start building a road to Tokyo.

2030 BC
-Road to Tokyo started
-Spearman finished in Kyoto, sent towards Osaka

1990-1950 BC (forgot to mark what dates correspond to what events)
-Alphabet learned. If we weren't currently at war, I'd start on Writing, but as it is, I started on Iron Working.
-Kyoto's cultural influence expands
-Osaka reinforced by the second spearman. Egyptian warrior remains 1 NW of Osaka.
-The spearman from Tokyo arrives 1 square away from the warrior. Won't risk an attack, a defensive victory would be preferable.

1910 BC
-Great news, MORE BARBS!! This one comes out of the southwest and is headed for Osaka (exactly what Osaka needs right now)
-Kyoto finishes a spearman, fortifies him, and begins on a chariot
-Tokyo spearman decides to try to go around the warrior by Osaka and reach the town proper, as more egyptian units are starting to approach the town.

1870 BC
-Tokyo spear reaches Osaka
-Workers finish a section of road, decide to build the final section of the road through the plains with the elephant instead of through the forest.

1830 BC
-One of our problems is temporarily solved, the approaching Egyptian warriors kill the approaching barbarian. One is slightly wounded, the second doesn't fight.
-Third spearman fortified in Osaka

1790 BC
-The uninjured warrior from the earlier barb attack attacks osaka, gets killed by the elite spear. The injured one retreats over the border.

1750 BC (last turn)
-The warrior NW of Osaka is tempted by the two workers building the road to tokyo, moves NW
-Kyoto finishes Chariot, places itself between the egyptian warrior and the two workers
-The road to Tokyo is complete, the two workers retreat to Kyoto
-Tokyo completes a spearman, fortifies it, starts another.
-Toyed around with research rates. 90% has us at -1 gold, but we finish Iron Working in 6 turns compared to 9 at 70%


Wow, what a hectic turn! I didn't get much done, but it is much worse that it could have been (especially when the barbs started popping up by Kyoto). I don't have much in the way of advice for the next Shogun except to figure out why the hell the Egyptians were so aggressive. They MUST be stuffed in there pretty tight to be so jumpy. Somewhere in that fighting they started the pyramids, but one can only wonder if they are very far along with them and what it will do to their military-producing capabilities. We should think about settling that land to the southwest first before the spice town, as there doesn't look to be a whole lot of land left on our rock and we could probably bottle the egyptians up pretty well with another well-fortified town along their border.

Another cultural expansion by Osaka might also net us the luxury sitting right across their border, as well. Once the fighting settles down we should make a road to it in anticipation of it happening.

Fight, team, fight! Goooo Nippon! :goodjob:

A war with Egypt isn't great news, but being militaristic, we may be able to turn it to our advantage. If we go a bit more offensive (judiciously) we may be able to get a Great Leader out of it and either get an army or Pyramids...

edit: fix grammar problem...

Got it. (Will probably finish tonight in next couple of hours,
if not, expect it tomorrow eve)

Egypt declared war???? :eek:

Gosh, that's too funny -- I was convinced after recent posts that I was being way too paranoid and that we were safe. Gotta get they're clear out of expansion room and see it as do-or-die. Well, it will I hope be die (for them)! ;) It's too bad -- had we been left alone we had a major jumpstart and the strongest beginning I've seen. That's why they call it a gambit, eh?

I'll see what I can do...
Charis

We don't know which cities are where or how many there are on the egyptian part of our island. The city to the southeast of Osaka has a pretty big cultural border for an AI city (such that we can't see what it is w/o violating Egyptian territory), could it be that we plopped Osaka down directly next to Thebes? I'd get nervous, too, if my capital city suddenly turned into a border town.

I smell weakness in Egypt's aggression (especially since their opening wave of aggression was two regular warriors and they haven't shown us anything besides regular warriors after that), and if we can assemble a strong enough force to hit that town to the southeast until it falls, we can probably wipe out all those uncouth gaijin soon after and Osaka will be avenged! :soldier:

Who could have fortold the vile Egyptians would declare war on us??
They have attacked the sacred valley!! The Emperor must go! A search
was made, and in fact a seer, all thought crazy, had fortold this.
They set out to search for the seer, they wanted him to lead in this time
of crisis...

1750 BC (0) - Charisgawa, the seer, is found and placed in power! His
first thoughts were... "Thank heaven they recaptured Osaka immediately!"
His second thoughts (after consulting Tokuhistogram) were "They will pay
for attacking the sacred valley. NO ONE insults Japan this way. We will
conquer them or die trying. This patch of land is ours, and it shall be
ours alone! Spearman production? Nay! We're going on the offense, boys!

Ah, the horses! Their special unit, available NOW, requires them. This
must be why they are so fierce. We have the horses, and will keep them.
In six turns, we get swordsmen, *triple* our offensive power, IF we have
access to iron. This may be key, Charisgawa thinks. Well, we have 3-4 turns
to decide if any production changes can be made, and if we can go forward
with Settler.

1725 BC (1) - Very first action is combat. The Spearman up North takes out the
Barbarian and his entire camp, with 25 gold in the process, and veteran
status. We cannot have two fronts, says Charisgawa. The second action is
also combat, as the foolish Egyptian warrior takes on our mighty chariot.
Without losing a single hp, we become veteran! (Wow, something to be said for
a military civilization!)

Stronger on defense than offense, the spearman of course fortify and wait.
Right? No!! "That is conventional thinking! Conventional thinking is how
we got in this mess! How can the Verses not protect those who defend the
sacred valley?!" Two spearman attack, and losing 1 pt each, slay the warriors.
Besides, it is rationalized, maybe they would ascend the hills and not
attack directly?

1700 BC (2) - Another warrior appears to the SW. The elite spearman climbs
the hill to intercept. The other drives forward into the dye, and the
Chariot ascends the hill, and finds... he's right next to Thebes, size 5!

1675 BC (3) - Do they attack? No! The dogs start a war, but will not fight it!
We shall show them how to wage war! "So sire, we press the attack??"
"No, we fortify." "What??" Charisgawa slaps the general hard. "Think man,
think. Let them come to us, fortified on the hill. Soon a Swordsman may
join us. Or when they think we will not attack, THEN we shall attack!

1650 BC (4) - The confused warriors attack, and die to the spearmen.
The settler is dispatched up north, 5 squares from Kyoto, knight's move from
the spice, and on the coast. We'll have some jungle clearing to do. There's
enough room east for a fishing village at some point. Hmm... if they will
not attack the chariot out of fear, let him scout the area! He finds the
situation to the SE is grim for the Egyptians, coast line and odd land
formation RIGHT below them. No room at ALL!

1625 BC (5) - Movement and scouting, healing.

1600 BC (6) - We learn Iron working, and study Warrior code. Woo! Two sources
of Iron, one on the hill next to Osaka, the other in the mountains just
above Kyoto. Production moved to Barracks, and might switch to Swordsmen
if we complete roads quickly. SW of Osaka, we hit coast quicker than
expected, AND a goodie hut.

1575 BC (7) - Stone cold silence on the Egyptians turn. Hmmm, do they even
have more than one Spearman in Thebes? What does the hut give us? Mysticism.
Up north we found Edo, a nasty jungle area, but that can be remedied with
time. SE, the chariot hits a tiny city with a spearman. The spearman is
destroyed, but there's one more (at least) -- the city stands.

1550 BC (8) - Great victory! After our Spearman at Edo takes out a Barbarian,
the Chariot rider, Tokobengawahur, destroys the last defender at the site
of Hieropolis. It is not sacred, and is razed to the ground. Tokoben is
now our most 'elite' troop :P Wouldn't a leader be nice?! Two more workers.
A settler pops out of Kyoto. Where to? (Which color dot?! :P) He's leaning
toward the yellow or green dot, and heads to the Osaka area. From what I can
see, their only two cities left might be Thebes and Memphis (SW of Thebes).

Cleopatra, now softened up, is questioned. "You are ruthless and bloody,
Tokugawa. What do you want with me?" (His advisors choke down a snicker)
"We are ruthless and bloody??? We were happy to be peaceful, but you attacked
the Sacred Valley. For this you must die." In the process he noted they
were studying Warrior Code. Too bad, we may have otherwise had a chance to
learn something before they go extinct.

1525 BC (9) - Kenjisan, our spearman in Edo, got bold and attacked the Barbarian
camp. He almost died in the process, but prevailed. We stick with settler
production. The roads won't bring in the iron in time, and there is no 'rush'
for Barracks.

1500 BC (10) - Barracks is finished in Osaka, then another Charioteer is
trained. Beating the Egyptians with a "sub-optimal" version of their
special unit seems just and good. Tokoben finds a barbarian camp, and in
his warlust, attacks it, hoping for glory. (Victory, but no leader)
Another barbarian comes in from the west -- is it from a jutty or a land
bridge to another continent?

1475 BC (11) - Memphis sends an archer OUT of the city to stand next to me,
instead of attacking. Truly there is dread of our great nation!!
Hmmm... that's our elite spearman. Do we go with our weak offense against
his weak defense? Or let his strong offense go against our strong defense.
Charisgawa says "Attack!!! For the glory of Japan!" Indeed!!! It was for
glory, for we get...

A great leader, Tojo!! (This is the first milataristic civ I've played,
and can't believe how much better the experience gain is. Or maybe this
has been lucky?) Hmmm, he's not too safe this deep in enemy territory,
I'm glad their so passive so far ;P

The spearman on the hill on the iron, however, fortifies vs the approaching
barbarian warrior. A spearman near Thebes parks on their cattle.

1450 BC (12) - Cleopatra wants a meeting. She begs. Two words: "Sacred Valley."
The barwarrior charges the spearman on the hill is slaughtered like a pig.
No veteran-ness (ok, now I've come to expect it too much)
Never did take Tokyo off Settler, so out popped another city-to-be-born.
It is decreed that Temples must be built very soon in all cities to commemorate
how we were watched over! Warrior Code finishes, now we get to study Writing.
It should take about 12 turns. Tojo and the spearman backup a step, into
neutral territory, to fortify and heal.

1425 BC (13) - The road to the iron is complete, and Osaka switches to a Swordsman.
The West edge where the Bar came from is now seen to be a tiny jutty. If it weren't
just outside the reach of the game it would be the perfect spot for a fishing
village. (Maybe there's fish there?) Our two captured workers are now on the
run from a restless bar. It will run around the lake until Tokoben can help.

1400 BC (14) - Move back next to Memphis, with Tojo's father spearman and Tokoben.
An archer goes for the fortified spearman on the cattle, helping him
become a veteran :P

1375 BC (15) - Satsuma is founded in the spice village near the mountains of
Kyoto. Not prime ground, but a good spot near Kyoto. Kagoshima is founded
west of Thebes, NW of Memphis, SW of Osaka. (Green dot spot)
Nara is founded not far NW of that (yellow dot). In a nerve wracking
battle, Tokoben the Charioteer defeats a Memphis spearman (going down to 2 hp).

1350 BC (16) - "Our people want to build the forbidden palace sire!"
Gasp? Already? This is sad news to Charisgawa, for he forsees several more
cities to be built by the sacred kingdom. The Eastern jutty camp is cleared
for another 25 gold. No fish.

1325 BC (17) - Our elite spearman easily defends vs a barbaric horseman and
warrior, as they've stepped back to heal up.

1300 BC (18) - Another horseman barbarian impales himself (although knocking
3 hp off our spearman) Our leader Tojo, takes the chance now to make a
break for it, toward Osaka. An army of Swordsmen is one choice,
or hurrying something nice. I'll leave that to the next leader,
perhaps with thoughts from others in game before committing ;P
Saving for a long time is a bad choice, as we can't get a second leader
at one time, and we have several elite units in frequent combat. (If
nothing else, those bar invasions might spell more leaders before long)

1275 BC (19) - Movement and healing.

1250 BC (20) - Not much, Swordsman gets into position on hill over Thebes.
After one last round of healing, Tokoben chariot and spearman can move
into the forest next to Memphis and put and end to that city.

With this, Charisgawa grows weary and says it is time for another to lead.
He cautions the next leader not to be weak. Cleopatra shouts "Horse Riding for
Peace!" Do not allow peace. They attacked the sacred, undefended valley.
They must die. (If they first give us gold and Horse Riding... well... I
leave that up to you.) With swordsmen production and a barracks in Osaka,
and no Iron for them, victory is assured.

Good luck! (especially to Zed, who is up next!)
Charis

Below is a pic of the Southern lands, when the great
leader Tojo emerged. To the East in the picture you'll see a
road and two workers. That was where Hieropolis was, and
they're preparing the land for our future cities down there :)

Charis

Firstly, a big Kudos to the great warlord Charisgawa for his success versus the Egyptians.

Now, as to what we should do with Tojo (raised from the first regular spearman we trained, IIRC), I don't think we're going to need (or want) an army right now. We're alone on this island now, for all intents and purposes. Memphis is scheduled to fall on the next turn, and we won't need an army to just take Thebes. We've just about explored the width and breadth of our rock (and once our vision radius encompasses it, barbarians will stop appearing), so it's high time we quit this joint and discovered what the rest of the world is up to.

So which wonder should we rush? I think we should pick between the Great Library and the Lighthouse, leaning towards the Lighthouse. The Pyramids are still not built, but they won't be terribly useful to us except as culture (we have plenty of time to build granaries now, there's not much room left for expansion at home and it helps us not at all for overseas expansion if we were so inclined). The Hanging Gardens are also a choice, but the people of Nippon have access to no fewer than three distinct domestic luxuries (or will once Thebes is gone), and the effect of each grows once we build marketplaces. The Library will give us free tech (and denies it to the AI civs who would otherwise have it), but the Lighthouse will help us get off this island and into the greater world community (and who knows, with the current research line, it might still be possible to build one normally and rush the second, but we won't know for sure until we meet some more of our neighbors ;) ).

Besides, if we're going to make an army, why bother with swordsmen? If we want an army, save him and build an army of Samurai. :ninja:

Let us sit by the campfire and sing the song of Shogun Carbon Copy, Warlord of Vengeance, Protector of the Empire. His wisdom in recognizing the betrayal of our treaty by the cowardly Egyptian Gaijen and moving to reinforce (then, out of necessity, to retake and avenge) Osaka, did show him to be the Second Prophet, long awaited, to bring balance to our great civilization and Reveal the Other Truth of the Mother to our people.

For while we praise Her Name, let us also manifest Her Strength in human form upon the earth. We must strike down all who would blaspheme Her by making war upon her chosen people, which is an unholy act, and to prepare ourselves for such holy war by the training and arming of our strongest men in the arts of warfare. So it is sung, so let it be known.

The Verses are again witnessed to be the Truth! For was it the vision of Siriansan that led us to trust the Egyptians too far? No! We had not even met these wicked people yet at the time of Siriansan's passing. Some of our later warlords, interpreting the Verses in their religious fervor to appease the Great Mother and expand our population, did not yet know the Other Truth, that the ways of Righteous War are as vital to our people as those of pious worship, gentle farming, and hard work. Their assurances of the safety of our people outside the sacred valley have been shown to be false visions by the Second Prophet!

But surely the liberation of Osaka from its brief sufferance at the hands of wicked Egypt is manifest proof of the glory of the Second Prophet and his status as chosen of the Mother. And yea, though he did not compose poetic Verses for us to sing in his name, as did Siriansan, the music of his half of the Truth can be heard in the song of bronze, as the clash of axe on shield, and spear into flesh, sings to the hearts of all Nippon!

Many have questioned our defeat at Osaka. Does blame lie upon warlords who urged peaceful tilling of our lands at the expense of military preparation? Does it lie in the failure of our outnumbered forces to hold off the sneak attack of the Egyptians? Or does blame lie not with us at all, but upon the head of Egypt, whose greed did lead them to covet our lands and make violence upon us? We must not trust the Gaijen! This is the lesson, as spelled out by the great warlord Charisgawa, whose songs of the Second Prophet shall be sung in our temples for all time! For it was Carbon Copy himself who led our elite warriors in the raid to liberate Osaka, whose military brilliance did save the day. Who but Nippon might recover from such a blow? Who might suffer wrongs so great, losses so terrible, yet only be angered to pour forth in rage from their sacred valley to instruct the treacherous Gaijen in the true meaning of warfare? Who is made stronger by defeat? Who prevails in the end? Who is favored of the Mother??? Nippon!

By Verse and by Arms, the Sun rises on Nippon. :queen:

Sleep now, and tomorrow we will sing of the glories of our war upon the Gaijen.

I agree with Carbon that a wonder should be rushed. The advantage of a leader THIS early is simply too good to pass up, as 400 shields "for free" so early is staggering.

Consider the Pyramids. Consider them for three vital reasons:

Firstly, by small map standards, this is a large continent. We have room for what, nearly a dozen cities here? That is already beyond pushing the number easily sustainable on a small map, without tripping over into high corruption. So it's not as if we will find another large continent, fill it up, and not benefit from the Pyramids there.

Secondly, the growth curve impact would be enormous, on an already strong game. All but two of our cities now are still extremely small, and we haven't built granaries in any of them. Even as we have made war, we've kept building settlers, we've got seven cities going and about to get an eighth, not counting ones we may capture. Mad population explosion! Even at 60 shields per (and remember the maintenance cost, also saved, thus speeding our research) and corruption plaguing future cities to the south, how many thousand years would pass before we had all those granaries built. Ten granaries is 600 shields. Using our leader NOW, we can get the benefit of that, without any maintenance cost, get it NOW and woo, the math of that compared to the minor details of my writeup about pros and cons of building on a wheat just pales.

Thirdly, and perhaps most importantly, is the impact of denying the pyramids to the AI's. That's the best reason ever to build the pyramids, as more often than not, the civ who does rises to be the prime contender -- witness Persia in RBD1, built the Pyramids and was able to build TWO IMMORTALS PER TOWN extra instead of granaries (on average, not even counting growth curve benefits). And remember, the AI's usually all spend shields on building the pyramids, and one of them gets it, while others may get runner-up wonders. The benefits of denying the Pyramids to the AI shocked me in my large map expansionist game, prototype of the one I'm contemplating at RBD forum.

The Pyramids are not the end all, and we don't know how the other four civs in the game are faring, but the choices are Pyramids, Oracle, Army, or sit and wait. We could build the Heroic Epic if we had a successful army, but we don't need the army militarily speaking, and it would take too long to build the Epic to benefit from it vs the Egyptians anyway. Maybe if there were other civs around to make war against, an army of three swords would be quite tempting (and unstoppable), but as this looks now, I would go Pyramids, and do it in Kyoto where they would be the most secure.

There is even, I suppose, a chance of finding the rest of the civs once we get mapmaking, and go ahead and poprush horsies and swarm over them all and conquer the world in the ancient age or early middle ages. The Pyramids would certainly aid any despotic whipping fury -- unless we are comfy in building up our island, and don't want to end the game that quickly even if we have the chance. Moot point unless we can reach all the other civs without having to cross any ocean, though.

Good luck, Zed. Your desire to play Japan on a small map, and assigning me to go first (with this rich starting spot and our ambitious gambit) has shaped all that has come since. We have faith in you! (Now if only your computer holds up... :eek: )


- Sirian


EDIT: Charis: players can only get leaders fighting the AI civs. Barbarians are a good way to get some early elite units, though, or upgrade regulars to veteran -- at the occasional cost of some losses, albeit.

Phew! I think we have been very close to get on a losing road after the capture of Osaka ... but thanks to the two great leaders of the C-Dynastie our position now looks better than ever. :)

Tojo?

Yes I agree, he should be used to rush a wonder whithout waiting forever.

Lighthouse: Would have been top priority if our island was as small as I thought in the beginning ... aiming at the high seas doesen't seem that important now that we found out that we have a good amount of land for expansion.

GL: Nice to have and nice to take away from the AIs :cool: -

Pyramids: In most situations simply THE BEST anicient wonder ... I second Sirian ... it seems still VERY strong even here on a small map and island setting.

There is not a big chance to build the pyramids on a regular basis (without the help of a leader) in this game, since this wonder seems top priority of the AIs. On the other hand chances for building the GL "regular" are quite good (especially with another boost of our position from the Pyramids). Trying to get both of these beautys seems very tempting.

Hmm ... on the other hand waiting a few turns to rush a Forgotten Temple maybe an alternative too.

"Die Qual der Wahl"

Interesting discussion...

Should a wonder be rushed? In the words of the Civ 2 advisors,
"I concur."

> players can only get leaders fighting the AI civs.
Aha! VERY good to know, tnx.

There seem to be two divergent paths ahead of us...
(Well, not only two, but two strong ones come to mind, in fact I'll change my mind to 3 in a minute. I'ld like to leave future propositions like this uncommented/unqualified, so don't take them as 'this is the only way' :P)

I. Religious isolation. Take our land as the only land we'll ever need. Defend it to the death. Go for Great Library to not get behind on techs, get to democracy asap, and build, build, build.

II. Military expansion. ("Regular" expansion in the sense of building a strong network of cities is out on this small map. We're already extended. Any cities off the contitent will be utterly useless except for rushing, meaning we would have feeble cities or would stay in despotism most of the game)
Take the assault on Osaka as something so terrible to the psyche of Nippon that it snapped us into a militaristic nation convinced of their heavenly right to rule. Rush Pyramids, found an obscene number of cities, and built up a military machine, pushing to Samurai, then popping them out like madmen.

Ok, those are the two poles -- full isolationist vs rapid destroyers. Already a third in-the-middle strat comes to mind, likely what Pyramid proponents had in mind. Go Pyramids to jump start our great continent. Do not neglect the seas and get to know others asap, setting up trade routes and making friends. With the Pyramids, grow up a strong nation that can respond militarily if needed. Being religious as well as military, we can achieve blissful happiness in times of peace, and switch with no anarchy to despotism (to whip cities in OTHER lands) to exact vengeance on our foes.

I had first thought Great Library, but I would now agree that Pyramids would be a solid choice, and an unusual wonder to actually get in a Monarch or higher diff game. Getting so early even makes Kyoto a candidate for a 20K win (?!)

Question: Does the Forbidden Palace mean no chance of flipping? Or just as good: Since the civ will be wiped out, is it safe to take Thebes and not raze it, as the last Egyptian city to go?

Charis

PS Although victory is assured, it might not come instantly. We just have one attacker at Mephis and Thebes, and bad luck there will cause pain and delay us. If we rush Pyramids right away we could even get a chance for a second leader in the sacking of Thebes (!)

Just thought I would share a thought that cleopatra would call "Sick, Devious, and Cold-Blooded" :mad:

Build Pyramids, then slow-roast Thebes. Set peace, demand their techs, then break as needed. Attack it only as fast as it can produce a new unit, and only attack with Elite attackers. Punish them until a second Great Leader arises! He will be the shining star that finishes them. With NO resources and surrounded, they'll never get better units than spearmen and archers. They have horseback riding technology, but no horses, for example. On the off chance that Thebes is too big and pumps out too fast, we camp on the wheat, cattle and good food squares and starve them down.
Would this be i) dumb with a capital 'D', ii) not be effective due to something I'm missing, iii) highly exploitative? On the latter there is that feeling, and yet... this circumstance seems so rare, to have time to torture one civ with little concern for a second front opening up, is it just 'good strat' ? And of course it could backfire wildly.

Ok, enough ruthlessness and back to work :)
Charis

A great game so far guys. I'm having fun reading the exploits.

As I've just finished a succession game (LK4), I would love to join another. I'm adept at Monarch level, so if someone has to bail on your team I'd love it if one of you could PM or email me and let me know if I could take their place.

In the mean time, I'll just enjoy the write-ups.

And by the way - I agree with the Pyramid-building fans. Remember, the Library will only give you techs from civs that you have contact with. Given your location and the pending obsolesence of the Library with Education, you may only have a very small window to actually USE the Library. Assuming you all have patched versions, the Lighthouse is not all it's cracked up to be any more as well.

Enjoy!

Ok, ready to go. Will get it this evening. I think farming Egypt for another great leader is a good idea & will endeavor to do so; I'd like to get at least one more out of them if possible. Rushing another wonder (forbidden palace sounds good) would really cement our starting position.

As far as strategy for future victory goes, I guess it depends on how advanced the other civs are by the time we encounter them; I expect we ought to be relatively advanced (infrastructure-wise and maybe tech-wise) compared to most of them. If so, I certainly think we should take advantage of our good starting position, our Militaristic civ advantage, and our Samauri to attempt some off-shore conquests, and make a stab at a Medieval age domination victory. I don't necessarily want to go despotic whipping all the way, however, as we don't want to fall too far behind the times. I think we ought to set our civ up for victory in the early Industrial era (once we get cavalry/rails/etc.) even while we pursue adventures in foreign lands in the Medieval age. An early domination victory attempt would be great, and I'd love to see victory before 1500AD, but only if we're confident that victory is ultimately inevitable anyway. :king:

Anyway, that's my opinion on the direction the game should be heading, assuming that our start is better than that of the other civs.

Kev, thanks for chiming in and especially for pointing out that the Great Library only considers civs you know. Key point which rules out the 'Isolationist+GL' strat ;p

Zed, you should have a fun turn. While our start is strong, it's rather likely indeed when we make contact we'll be far behind. If there is another continent with 4-5 civs, they will be trading tech and be FAR ahead in that respect. Also, as far as infrastructure, several towns need a TON of work, jungle clearing and all, to be even to outgrow a tiny knoll. It would be fitting and fun to go for a Shogunesque Samurai domination victory, and small map with an early fight-to-the-death ties in nice with that. Maybe I'm off, but think that heavy rails favor the foes. The fighting will not be on our home turf, and when in enemy territory, no bonus for the attacker, and (if the AI were smarter) advantage in shifting to defend.

I'm thinking we have nowhere near the shield production to benefit much from Foreign Palace for a long time, but that the Pyramid granary bonus would double shields by doubling the population. Also, can anyone confirm -- Foreign Palace operates to cut corruption due to distance from capital -- will it do anything at all to cut corruption due to overcrowding (too many cities).

In the medium term, we might like having a set of 'whipping' cities in the south that figuratively are made up of our one-time-agressor-foes, and do not bring the whip at ALL to the "Sacred Valley" of Kyoto, Tokyo, Osaka.

On the Great Leader hunt, good luck if you do that. I have NO IDEA if it will be successful, and was curious if that was something others had tried or had an opinion on.

Charis

I think the Pyramids fans have convinced me. Reflecting on my earlier endorsements of the Lighthouse or Library over the Pyramids, it's because I still feel like we're playing on a little island in a big map. This is the first time I've played on any size map smaller than Standard, and the scale is throwing me off (especially since I'm playing a 5-civ game in a Huge map when I'm not reading or participating here, in that game it's 500 AD and there are still enormous gaps between my American civ and the next-door neighbors).

However, regarding the Egyptians, I'm not too comfortable with them lasting much longer, especially once we start out to sea. Keeping them as a vassal state when we enter into international politics (esp. once our maps start circulating) might get us entangled with problems that would outweigh another possible Leader (if we don't manage to get a second one by then). I could just be paranoid, but paranoia seems to be in vogue this game.

The year is 1250. The beloved leader Charisgawa has left us, and the people are bereft. In a fit of holy madness brought on by mourning, an unknown rutabega farmer named Zedrick (later known as Zedrick I) is proclaimed ruler.

As a farmer, Zedrick is of course concerned that the land be properly worked. He sees that there are a number of workers throughout the land but a few more would be beneficial in assisting the colonies to grow. He is also concerned with ensuring our colonies have plenty of food to eat. One of his first acts as ruler is to assign the Great Leader Tojo to initiate a massive construction project in Osaka to build a granary complex sufficient to provide for the needs of the entire continent. Tojo turns out to be a miraculously gifted engineer, and under his guidance work teams are able to complete a massive set of Pyramids in only 25 years! Once these are complete, Kyoto continues to build exclusively settlers and workers for the remainder of Zedrick's reign.

Seeing how good an engineer Tojo turned out to be, Zedrick decided to allow the gaijin Egyptians to continue to exist a little longer. He wanted to see if any more Great Leaders would emerge from battles with the Egyptian scum! In the south, our lone chariot scours the land in search of barbarian incursions. During Zedrick I's reign, it discovers no less than 4 such encampments, eliminating 3 of them. Meanwhile, an elite spearman watches over the city of Memphis.

Several of the colonies completed defensive spearmen over the course of Zedrick's reign, and several began construction of temples in homage to the Great Mother who gave us the Sacred Valley. A new colony, Nagoya, was established south of Thebes, via a spearman-escorted settler from Kyoto -- the spearman would eventually be killed by an archer from Memphis and need to be rebuilt via whipping. :( Our scholars also discovered Writing and Mapmaking during the course of Zedrick's reign. At the discovery of the latter, Tokyo began construction of a galley so that we will be able to discover lands and peoples beyond our own shores. Travellers have reported that one of these, known as the Iroquois, have constructed a Great Lighthouse, but none know what this might mean.

The main focus of Zedrick's reign was the war with the Egyptians. For the first portion of his reign the Egyptian front was mostly quiet and the gaijin were well-contained. However, the reason for the calm was soon discovered to be that the people of Thebes were using the respite Zedrick had given them by not pressing the attack to build an Oracle! :lol: Zedrick was both pleased and displeased by this; the latter because that Oracle should rightfully be ours as she would help greatly with the interpretation of the Sacred Verses, but the former because she would soon be under our control once the gaijin Egyptians were eliminated. For a time, Zedrick maintained his efforts to subdue rather than eliminate the Egyptians, in the hopes that a Great Leader could be found, but this proved considerably more difficult than he expected. Once the Oracle was completed, Egypt once again became warlike, and produced many an archer from the large city of Thebes. Our swordsmen gallantly held them off, but each time at terrible losses, such that only one swordsman unit was able to become elite. :eek: Frequently our units would be forced to withdraw to Osaka to replenish their numbers.

Finally, Zedrick decided enough was enough. Thebes could produce troops significantly faster than Osaka, as it was both the Egyptian capital and larger than Osaka; a war of attrition was in Egypt's favour rather than our own. Zedrick ordered the army to advance to within striking distance of Thebes. As soon as he did so, however, a new voice was heard from the elite swordsmen unit, a voice like none since great Tojo himself, and as the first assault on Thebes was begun, his was the voice that sounded doom for the gaijin Egyptians - the voice of the Great Leader Hirohito! Under his leadership the elite swordsmen lured the first Thebian defensive unit to the city outskirts and crushed them, while another unit of veteran swordsmen advanced into the city proper, destroying all resistance. Thebes, and the Oracle, were ours! :D Finally, Hirohito returned to Osaka for consultation with our seers there as to his next task.

The year is 800 BC, and Zedrick I has taken the appearance of great Hirohito as an omen that his tasks are done. He has left the appointment of his successor with the great war hero.

-----------------

Note, there are 2 settlers south of Osaka that couldn't really venture too far south due to the massive number of archers Thebes was pumping out, but soon we should be able to wipe out the Egyptians and let them settle in the south. The Egyptians still have Memphis for now, but there are several swordsmen in the area so it shouldn't be too hard to move a couple down and smack it. We just need to make sure to keep some units near Thebes in case it revolts before we wipe out Memphis. Right now Kyoto is building a barracks but it could be changed to something else easily enough. Osaka is building a temple as it is about to go into unrest if it grows any more.

Another leader! Brilliant stuff. A gambit as bold as our nonmilitary start, and once again it has paid off! With a second leader, saving him to rush a Forbidden Palace in a city just to the south of Thebes, once the Egyptians are wiped out, would assure our tech and production dominance for all time. At first I thought a city east of Memphis would be good, but after taking a look, I believe Memphis itself would be the best choice for the FP, whether we rush it now or not. It's the most central location in the south, and a good choice for the no-corruption city, being built on fresh water with lots of grasslands. As soon as we take Memphis and all Egyptian cities are captured, worries about revolt end, and Memphis could even perhaps be set to try to build the Colossus. Alternatively, we could save Hirohito for the GL, but we can probably get that one anyway if we start on it now. Osaka would be a choice site with all its shields, and it could use a Palace placeholder, but a small map has such bad corruption, even cities right next to the capital are affected significantly.

A fully decked army requires a boat with four slots to move it across water, so I would not expect that to be as useful in this situation. Pangaea, running a 15 hp elite sword trio running across all opposition would be tempting. Never are armies more useful militarily than the ancient age, but we've just about won our war now.

Here are some city site suggestions. The white dot is particularly keen, even though it wastes one game square, because its on fresh water and grabs otherwise to-be wasted grasslands, and is still on the coast. Grass beats tundra game. Red dot gets the grassland that Memphis misses, and may get some kind of fish at sea, but at least maxes sea coverage, which is where most of its food will come from, with harbor help. Yellow Dot would be just a fishing village. It misses the game, but picks up the fish off-screen to the south, which is better, and maxes sea coverage, with some hills available.

I should mention, I didn't really do any diplomacy or fiddling with science rates on my turn. We are currently researching Code of Laws, but we just started so if we need something else urgently we can get it. I leave it up to whoever's on deck (Jaffa?) to decide if we want to try to get Egypt's tech before we wax Memphis -- be warned that Thebes might revolt if we leave it alone too long. Right now it's being starved of dissenters, but once they get brought down low enough we could use workers or even one of the settlers to boost friendly population in Thebes.

Back in the RBD-Forum Jaffa asked if it would be OK for the rest if he could skip his turns until Wednsday 9th (holiday). Since I have free time on my hand tonight and no time tomorrow I think it would be the best to interchange turns between me and Jaffa for this round to keep things running.

I will start playing tonight (CET) if I don't get a "stop" from Jaffa (or anybody else)

OK for you ??

Sounds good, Ion.

I say capture Memphis asap. Delaying on Thebes to get another leader worked out great, but now it's time for Egypt to die out. If we capture Memphis, we can stop starving Thebes. And we can't rush an FP in Memphis if the Egyptians are still holding it. It's got the Palace in there now, it does have culture, so I believe it won't be razed when captured, which is just what we want... although it may be suffering from whip-itis.

With a granary in Thebes, there should be no need to add precious workers/settlers to it. It will regrow quickly enough.

- Sirian

Go for it, Ion. I'm back in the USA now, but not having to think too much until tomorrow suits me just fine :)

Young Ionsan stood nervous in a quite corner of his palace. He was decided to be the next leader of the great Japanese empire. He knew since he was very young that he would be the leader one day, but was he ready yet? Ionsan looked at the gallery of his ancestors ... Siriansan Fouder of the Empire, Carbonsan Rescuer of Osaka, Charissan Father of Tojo and Zedsan Father of Hirhoito - would he be able to match the standards of those great leaders? Still, he had no choice - he had to do what was expected - and so it all begun.

800 (0): Changed Code of Laws to Literature - still dreaming of the Great Libary - maybe all other nations sit on one big continent and have a big advantage in science ...

775 (1): Nagaya finishes spearman builds temple / defeat of barb-camp in the south for 25 gold / swordsman moved to Thebes to quill resisters

750 (2): Satsuma finishes temple builds harbor

730 (3): Edo finishs worker builds temple

710 (4): Kyoto finishs barracks builds workers (and keeps on building workers/settlers until end of turn) / Nara builds temple starts galley / Osaka builds temple and starts palace as Placeholder for the Great Libary (or any other wonder íf needed)

690 (5): Resistance in Thebes has ended! Memphis is attacked - the last spearman in Memphis kills 2 Swordsman and elite spearman before he is overrun from the last attacking swordsman with 1 HP left (Pheew!!) - Memphis is destroyed (autorazed) - 30 gold is all what was left from the Egypts

670 (6) Izumo is build on the place where Thebes was / Forbidden Palace started in Izumo and rushed immediatly with Great Leader Hirhoito !! Tokyo builds galley and starts another one - galley is used to explore lands in the north - since there are lots of pirates the gally is not stocked / our palace expands

650 (7) FP build in Izumo ... temple is next

630 (8) Finished Literature and changed to Code of Laws --> changed Osaka from palace to Great Libary / founded Nagasaki on white spot

610 (9) quite

590 (10) quite

570 (11) Galley build in Tokyo - since the first galley found an unoccupied island north of Japan this one will try to bring settlers to the new island / I don't know if it will turn out to be worth to settle on the second island ... but I couldn't resist

550 (12) Palace expands again !!

530(13) Spearman and settlers are loaded in galley and shipped over to new island

510 (14) Code of Laws is researched by our scientists - changed to Philosophy / landed settlers and spearman on second island

490 (15) Iroqouis have finished Collossus / founded Yokohama on second island

I was very uncertain if (and where) to build city on the new island - hope it turns out to be wise choice

Here is a picture of the island in the north:

http://www.stammtischohnename.de/civ3/northb.jpg

P.S.: Sorry for any spelling mistakes - it is 2am here - I have to work in a few hours and english is not my first language

I have not whipped anything during my turn - temples (that's what I have build most of the time) are cheap for a religious society anyway ... so whipping may be used to build courthouses for the full 40 shields in many cities now ...

Ion, your save file is corrupt. Seems to be an issue on this forum that you HAVE to upload with (a fairly current) version of Microsoft Explorer. Netscape won't work :(

You'll need to re-upload, using Explorer, or mail it to Jaffa directly.

Good job though, from your report :)
Charis

Ionpure: I don't know what info you had when you settled Yokohama, so I can't really critique the choice. Looking at it now, though, with the whole island visible, it is in an impoverished location, with no land that can offer more than one food until we get to electricity.

Still, it's not in the way of any other cities, so it could whip a harbor and then churn workers for the island every five to ten turns. Here are my settlement thoughts:

Two factors to keep in mind: distance from capital on a small map is very important, so the closer to the capital the better. The FP's in the south and of no help to this land -- which is fine. The other factor is making best use of the land.

I'd urge yellow dot as top priority, because it's on fresh water and those lands are rich. All overlap with Yokohama, except the lake itself, would be claimed by yellow dot, with Yoko to become a half-city fishery. White dot next priority, grabs remaining irrigatable lands, plus one wasted jungle from mainland. Green dot goody hut might offer us a settler! If not, it's a good site for city anyway, grabs all grassland (jungle) plus the whale. All three of these city sites put their respective cities as close to Kyoto as possible. Red dot is leftover location, hopelessly corrupt location but what the hey. Better our corrupt city than somebody else's.

With this plan, one forest, two mountains, one gold hills, and some potentially useful coast wasted, but cities making use of 95% of the island, plus close as possible to Kyoto. Irrigation access does pass through cities, so no worries about Yellow dot on that score.

Hmm, I uploaded from Netscape 6.2, seemed to work fine for Ionpure...

Strange ... I did use Internet Explorer 5

Anyway - you can download the file here (http://www.stammtischohnename.de/civ3/rbd490bc.zip)

Some more notes:

Placing Yokohama on the place where it is was mainly about getting a foothold on the island without ruining further city sites and it also claims the iron (and takes it away from other civs). The land in the northeast of the continent already looked quite promising (even without the knowledge of the complete island map) when I shipped the settler over. Problem was heavy pirate activities around our lands. I couldn't risk to lose a ship manned with a settler and a spearman, and decided for a landing place within the radius of the galley. "Walking" up there would have been possible but I decided to start a city on that island asap.

Whats next? Still some room left to expand on our main island and new city-sites on the next islands. Most cities are only defended by a single spearman at the moment, so more military will be needed soon. We should make contact to other civilizations soon (next island already visable on the image), and they have to be anywhere.

As our foreign advisor says "make more friends" ... I hope those nations will never find out what happened to the our last "friends" - the egyptians :lol:

This turn brough to you earlier than expected courtesy of jetlag. Yay?

Building. Lots of building. Also, we made contact with the outside world :)

470BC Kyoto produces settler. Settler and Kyoto spearman start north to be shipped to island. This leaves Kyoto without any defence, but I think at this point it's safe to do so. Our galley explores towards the land sighted to the northeast. Rearrange Osaka for quicker growth.

450BC Northeast land seems to be just another small island.

430BC Thebes finishes spearman, starts courthouse. Philosophy done, start on Mathematics.
Our galley exploring the northeast island sinks after I accidentally leave it too far from the coast :(

390BC Kyoto finishes another settler. Izumo finishes temple, starts harbor. Tokyo finishes harbor, starts galley. Settler and spearman land on island near yellow dot site.

370BC Spearman sent to investigate fungal growth on mountains (goody hut). Finds it deserted. Too many happy mushrooms? :)

350BC Satsuma finishes harbor, starts courthouse. Kagoshima finishes settler, starts worker. Mathematics done, start Republic. One of our galleys sights the southern polar ice cap :) Yellow Dot City founded.

330BC Kyoto finishes another settler. Nagoya finishes harbor, starts courthouse.

270BC Galley finished in Tokyo. Worker finished in Kagoshima. Nagasaki finishes temple, starts courthouse. We make contact with an Iroquois galley! Pay 175 gold for contact with Romans and Greeks. Romans give world map + Horseback Riding + 90 gold + 1 gold/turn for our world map. Iroquois give us 47 gold to trade world maps. Greeks give 59 gold + 1 gold/turn. Can just see the edge of the Germans (?) on the Greek map. White Dot City founded.

250BC Nara finishes harbor, starts courthouse.

230BC Unrest in Osaka. Ack! Institute 10% luxury tax. Iroquois annoyingly land a settler team on the northern island and steal the goody hut :P Shimonoseki founded.

210BC The Iroquois start on the Great Library. We are 20 turns from finishing it. Dispatch a couple of workers to help with improvements on the northern island.

190BC Thebes finishes courthouse, starts barracks. Tokyo builds a spearman. Edo finishes temple, starts courthouse. Green Dot City founded.

We get Republic next turn. Science rate has been turned down to save gold.

Our empire is HUGE compared to everyone else we know about.

Our ship to the northeast with the spearman aboard is heading toward the goody hut location outside of Tonawanda.

Our empire ought to be huge relative to the others considering our starting location. :) Maybe we should rename Kyoto to Baby Factory? ;)

On a side note, I'm curious how we stand tech-wise compared to the other civs, as well as what the map looks like now that we've traded to upgrade it. Anyone care to post a screenie of it? I'm not sure exactly how to capture one, PrintScrn doesn't seem to generate an image file in Civ3 like it does in D2.

Techwise, the Iroquois are slightly ahead (they have everything we have, and Construction). Greeks and Romans are behind.

In the year 200BC, a boy from Nagasaki was playing on a frozen lake. The ice cracked, the boy fell in and disappeared. His playmates ran to fetch help. Strong swordsmen from the royal barracks rushed to the lake. They broke through the ice and pulled the boy's body to shore. His warmth was gone, his breathing stopped, his heart no longer beating. The other children wailed and mourned, and the town was sorrowful. A ceremonial burial was scheduled and the entire community gathered to grieve at the loss. As the bonfire was lit beneath the boy's pyre, a wondrous and frightful thing happened: THE BOY SAT UP. He cried out in pain as flames licked up all around him, and he coughed and choked on the smoke. Men rushed to pull him from the fire, but not before his right arm was badly burned and most of his hair singed away. The men rolled him in the snow, then wrapped him in blankets. He passed out, and slept for three days, during which many believed that he had again died. Others said no, for he breathed and his heart did beat again, but who had ever returned from a Long Sleep? No one. To sleep forever was the same as death. So said the Verses.

But the Verses also said of the Third Prophet: "Twice resurrected he shall be, a man who walks with Death as his companion. His face will bear the scars of the Mother's burdens. Of fire and ice, the shards of his soul, rent asunder by the might and glory of Her. He will talk to spirits, and they to him. And his Vision shall reveal the Truth That Binds."

When the boy awoke from his Long Sleep, after three days, his hair began to grow gray on his right side, where he had been burned the worst. His face was scarred. His mother wept both from joy and sorrow, for it was a miracle that her child had been returned to her from the land of the dead, yet she grieved still for the pain he suffered. His father had been slain in battle, fighting barbarians on the tundra -- yet he spoke to the air as if to his father, and word spread across the countryside faster than a horse can ride. Silversan, he would come to be called, in honor of the silver hair that grew only on his right side.

Some ten years later, as Silversan had grown into a man, the temple elders found him wandering one night, talking to the spirits in a daze. They watched him from afar, not daring to disturb him, but then he fell to the earth, into the snow, and did not pick himself up. The elders carried him back to town, and again he slept the Long Sleep. This time when he awoke, he was mad with urgency. He babbled so quickly, no one could understand him, much less record his ravings. The next morning, he approached the Elders. He asked them to record a Vision he had of a place, a place, he claimed, that the Mother Herself had shown to him. "Now I must go and find this place."

The Elders thought they knew where the place would be, but they secretly consulted the Verses, which proscribed a Test for determing False Prophets. So they led Silversan around the land, to various cities, showing him places similar to what he had described -- yet purposely avoiding traveling to Osaka. At each such stop, Silversan scanned the land intently, wandering for days in a fevered search, only to return quietly and say, "This is not the place." Nagoya, Izumo, Thebes, Kagoshima, Tokyo... on and on they went, and always Silversan would search and search, then make his pronouncement: "This is not the place."

Finally they came to Osaka, and the Elders confidently led Silversan to the site of the ruins of the First Temple, which had been destroyed eons ago by the wicked Egyptians. All expected him to pronouce this as the place, for the shamen had agreed for centuries that this must be the site referred to in the verses foretelling of the Third Prophet. Yet Silversan said again, "This is not the place," and the priests were confounded. While they made plans to burn Silversan as a witch and False Prophet, and held him in chains, a handful of black clad men slipped unseen and unheard into the city. All that is known is that those few who witnessed the raid and lived to tell about it spoke of Running Death, as metal stars flew from the hands of these attackers, felling warriors in a single strike. Mighty iron swords would sweep from their sheaths, cleave a man in two and return beneath the black robes of the Ninjas in one smooth motion. Two hundred and seventy-one of the lord's guards and temple protectors were slain by a mere dozen Ninja, without harming one of them. They rescued Silversan and led him away.
:ninja: :ninja: :ninja:

It is written that when the Ninjitsu Masters led Silversan past mount Fuji and into the heart of the sacred valley, that he fell to his knees and wept, saying, "This is the place!"

"When I drowned, and was taken to the Land of the Dead, I saw a woman so lovely she could only be the Mother. She showed me her two hands, and in each she held a place dear to Her heart. In the one hand, I saw this valley, shielded by a great wall of stone that men had built. In the other hand, I saw a wondrous temple, decorated by divine works of art. The woman said to me, "You will build these things, that the truth in them will reveal itself to all who Seek. The gentle hearth shall be girded by a wall of might, while the iron fist shall be tempered by the artist's hand. The wife nurtures the husband, the husband protects the wife. Both are the same. Together, they are the One truth."

So it was that Silversan wandered the sacred valley and spoke of his vision, and the Truth that he revealed was so plainly elegant, that all the people followed him gladly, and the entire city of Kyoto set to work upon building The Great Wall. What better symbol of the Mother's divine hand of protection, here where the flower of devotion to Her first bloomed?

So it was also that Silversan journeyed to Osaka and ordered the disbanding of the great library project, for the Third Prophet foresaw that the Mother required perfect balance. Kyoto, the city of the First Prophet, devoted above all else to religion, should build the mightiest and greatest military fortification of all time, and so must the city of the Second Prophet, devoted to marking the rigors of war and serving to remind of the perils of weakness, should build the most grand religious Chapel to Her Glory. So would these great monuments be held in Her Two Hands, and the marriage of them bring the age of wonderment to Nippon.

While the wall would seem the more difficult task, requiring the labors of hundreds of thousands of lifetimes of hard work, its progress is marked and readily visible. One day it will be completed. Yet the Pristine Chapel eludes the people of Osaka, who struggle to figure out the proper way to construct this grand chapel and have not yet found it. Even as the Royal Treasury opens wide and wise men ponder the problems in the houses of learning in every city in the land, still we are unsure of the final nature of this chapel, what it shall be like. All we know is that the Verses, they are true, and the vision of the Prophets will guide us.

Shamen and Elders have sought to understand the cryptic prophecies and visions of Silversan. The Great Wall is easy to understand, and you need but travel to Kyoto to see its progress for yourself. The Pristine Chapel remains a mystery. We do not yet know and understand enough about the construction of such a glorious building, nor is our expression of art sufficiently refined to be worthy to decorate it as yet. Surely we must bend all our research efforts to puzzling this out.

The sacking of the Great Library caused much consternation at the time, as this grand repository was supposed to house all knowledge of the world in one location, and greatly enhance the pace of learning by eliminating redundancies and offering our scholars definitive works on any subject they may have need to inquire over. Many have claimed that only the threat of the return of the Ninja kept detractors from taking bolder action to stop Silversan from disbanding the Great Library project. That he did, in fact, walk with Death by his side frightened many, and whether the Ninja were men or angels is still unclear. Yet as time has passed, the wisdom of abandoning the library has come to be understood. The nations of the earth are few, and so widely scattered that relying on the crafty sea-demons, the Iroquois, to give us all the knowledge of other lands, seems folly now. By the time we might construct the Library, it should already be obsolete.

Far better to turn away from building monuments to the Truth of Men, and build instead the Truth of the Mother, the works that She could hold in her hands, to be proud of how Her people have kept the Covenant. For Silversan was the Third Prophet, who revealed that there is no Third Truth, but only the One Truth, which is a marriage of the nurture and growth of the Verses of Siriansan with the strength and protection of Carbonsan. Nippon must always balance both, lest we fall from the Mother's grace.

So did Silversan order the construction of many barracks across the land, and the training of vast armies, even as he devoted the heart of the empire to his religious monuments. Will the completion of these two monuments indeed bring about a golden age of prosperity, as Silversan promised? Or will it take the training of our men not just in the art of war, but of the holy war of Ninjitsu, to bring about that golden age? The widespread training of whole armies of such samurai lies yet beyond our grasp, even as does the mystery of the Chapel. We must learn more. We must find a way to control and organize such warriors, as well as to teach them. We need traditions, systems. And then we need ships as seaworthy as those of the crafty Gaijen, the Iroquois. All our vessels that have sought to cross the vast oceans to reach the lands of the west have been lost at sea.

What can be made of these visions? Time will tell.

I stayed in Despotism through my turn. Republic would cut corruption, and perhaps break even on income, but would require luxuries. Most of our larger cities have some wheat or cattle, so they are growing quickly enough for the moment. The whip was cracking as I could crack it in cities plagued by dismal corruption or low production. Spicetown got a library, Ego got a harbor, Yellow Dot got a temple, Yoko got a granary, Nagoya got a courthouse. There is more whipping to do, I think, because the despotism curve starts to hit diminishing returns.

A few turns in, Greece made contact with the Germans. I bought embassies with everyone on earth and, because they all have less territory than us, got back all I spend and more from Right of Passage agreements. Every 20 turns, somebody needs to check in on them, see if the price can be increased.

The first thing I did when I opened my inherited turn was scan the sea for paths to the AI continent. Sadly, there are none, we are STUCK in isolation until the arrival of Navigation, but for whatever colonies the Iro squeeze out on our side of the divide. They can barely get across the ocean, even counting their extra movement point AND the ability to safely navigate sea squares. I am pretty sure the AI actually "cheats" in that regard, being able to "see" its way from one landmass to the next, if there is a legal path for it it to take without have to pause its ships in waters that are dangerous to its current tech level.

So knowing that we're isolated means we can't make this an early finish. Just not possible. Maybe early-ISH, but not until we have Navigation or Magnetism. Likewise, we are shielded from all but the Iro's. So for a while this will be a building game.

As I researched Construction, still some twenty turns from being able to finish the GL, I realized that it was going to come too late to matter. The Iros are ahead of the other AI's in tech, or at least they were until I traded Construction and a hefty chunk of gold to Rome for Polytheism. (It would have cost us more to research it, I checked the science bar carefully). With Rome having Poly and Iro having Currency, they were just going to trade with each other, so I brokered it. I held on to Republic jealously, but the rest of the techs got brokered around, because the AI's collectively had too much cash-on-hand, and I had to do something. And just like that, we're in the middle ages, still 7 turns to go on the GL. Well, heck, beelining to Education, we could let the AI's build the GL, get zero from it, and we could swap out to Sistine Chapel, using the Palace as a placeholder. We have to run a hefty negative cash flow for a while to get to Sistine in time, but we can more than absorb it with 500 in the treasury.

Small maps, the research needs less total science to make a breakthrough -- yet we have a normal-map kind of civ going here, with tons of cities cranking the growth curve, and with the rushed Pyramids and FP, not even harsh corruption is much slowing us down as yet. So our research rate is ahead of the curve, and we neither need the GL nor do we need to stop the AI's from grabbing it. It's a nice cultural item, but so is the Chapel. The GL is a wash. So I started Great Wall, to grab that (because we can, and it fits nicely with the theme of our civ here). I settled the last two spots on our mainland, and grabbed the "Isle of the Verses" before the Iro's could. I set up a naval blockade across the narrows between our islands, and have been postponing aqueducts in favor of training more troops.

The Great Wall may seem like a useless wonder, but it DOES double the effect of walls, which are ultra-cheap to build for a military civ, and lasts until metallurgy. It's not a bad wonder to have for a scattered archipelago empire that would have troubles reinforcing quickly. No need in cities size 7+, but those ones that need aqueducts might improve survival odds if they build a wall. I did so in a couple spots, and set a couple others up so they can build a wall (no need to build troops, as those were provided) and then can whip a temple, harbor, or whatever the next warlord may decide.

Oddly, I inherited the game on 190BC? Did somebody not take all their turns? Did a couple of you count the inherited turn as one of your turns? (It's not). I went ahead and took 12 turns to round us back out to even numbers. The next player will last until 250ad with his ten turns, then the turns will drop to ten years each, and we'll each play 100 years for a while.

It will be necessary to run a deficit until Theology has been researched. How much of a deficit may be variable. With little chance of war until Navigation, we MAY risk missing a golden age entirely, so that's one more reason to build Sistine in Osaka: it's a religious wonder. We may want to have switched to Republic before the wonder is completed, in case it does kick a golden age, we won't waste a turn in anarchy. If that doesn't work, we may have to attack local Iro colonies with Samurai and HOPE. :)

Racing ahead in tech, instead of pausing to build the GL and ride that out, is certainly a radical shift in the game plan, but this is a small map, and the GL here starting looking overrated to me.

Whale of a Town has some lore to it, something about Silversan waking and mumbling about "giant fish", and pointing in some random direction, and settlers head out that way and lo and behold, there's a healthy society of the Mother's Own Giant Dolphins out there, who sing and moan. Some folks say those whales could be hunted some day, if the town was properly outfitted. Sounds like a plan, but make sure to build a Temple to the Mother in the town first, before any whale hunting takes place. ;)


- Sirian

When the great and fearsome Silversan slept the Long Sleep for the third and final time, the search began for a new leader (though his honored body has been preserved and lays yet in state inside the palace, as nobody quite trusts the formidable old man to not wake up again), and forthward came a young Osakan to take the throne, claiming to be the heir to the second ruling house of Nippon, the house of Carbon-sama. This caused quite a buzz of curiousity amongst the learned of Japan, as claiming lineage to Carbon-sama the Forgotten (also sometimes called Carbon-sama the Tardy, as it was his delay in sending reinforcements to the town of Osaka that caused it to be taken by the barbaric Egyptian gaijin) is a somewhat dubious honor. His successful retaking of Osaka after his error is all that kept his ruling house from falling into complete dishonor. And while the line of Sirian-san, the Father of Japan and Revealer of the Sacred Verses, and the Shogunate of Charisgawa, avenger of the Sacred Valley (and his great general Tojo) are all known and revered in turn-of-the milennium Nippon, Carbon-sama remained largely unknown except as the first and only ruler of Japan to suffer the dishonor of defeat.

Nonetheless, his claim of lineage was verified by the scholars in Kyoto, and despite the minor objections of the lesser nobility and some grumblings of the people, his claim to the throne was the strongest (the line of Sirian-san appears to have lain dormant or vanished entirely, the lack of a sufficiently fearsome foe has brought the houses of Charisgawa the Shogun into relative disfavor, and the other ruling lines have all diminished during recent times, bad genetic draws in recent history have found many of them without male heirs), and thus a new Emprorer, Carbon-Sama II was crowned.

His first few years were quite peaceful, much like the reign of his forefather. He mainly completed the work started by the great Silversan, and under the prosperous and peaceful new reign, the people rejoiced, to the point that the people in Tokyo greeted the arrival of a newly-mustered regiment of horsemen with celebrations of affection and love for the new Emperor. Carbon II then decided to add some spires to the courtyard of his palace, overlooking the lawn built by his forefather.

The year 150 AD is a year to be remembered by all the Japanese, as in that time two great events happened at once. Firstly, a monotheistic cult of the Great Mother rose to religious dominance in Japan, signalling a religious changing of the guard and the passing away of the old tribal deities. Secondly, and most importantly, however, was the completion of Silver-san's Great Wall, protecting the Sacred Valley forever from all gaijin who would try to claim it. The Imperial scholars, upon poring through the old histories, agree that never before in Nippon's history has the country been so prosperous as it was now, going as far as calling it an "Age of Golden Prosperity". Politically, it caused the growing Republican movement to die still in the womb, for though the philosophers and the ambitious agreed that perhaps a representative form of government was theoretically superior, nobody wanted to do anything to disrupt the reign of the House of Carbon-Sama the Golden.

While all this was going on in the Sacred Valley, in the northern Island provinces Carbon-sama was known as Carbon-sama of the Iron Fist, as he ruthlessly oppressed these far-flung lands to speed their production. For while there was no immediate threat, the gaijin Iroquois settlement on the Island of Many Dots troubled him, and remembering his progenitors' troubles with gaijin, he vowed not to be taken off-guard by foreign devils again. There he sent a handful more workers and a few military regiments that had lain idle in Edo during the protracted peace to connect and shift the balance of power in the region, while his overseers cracked their whips and forced out many civic improvements, though at a great cost of Japanese lives. Even the hallowed Isle of the Verses was not safe from the cracking of the whip, as the idlers and the loafers had dawdled too long on their temple to the Great Mother in the eyes of Carbon-sama.

Turning his eye briefly to monitor the various sorts of gaijin and their uncultured peoples, he heard somewhat troubling news from the ongoing war between the Iroquois and Romans. The Iroquois devils' town of Grand River has changed hands during the fighting and now is possessed by the Roman gaijin. And about the same time Imperial messengers hear more about the Iroquois culture from their colonies to the northeast. This worries Carbon-sama, as he does not want to see Japan becoming a close neighbor of the uncouth gaijin chief Hiawatha should the Romans take adjacent Salamanca.

During the final years of the House of Carbon-sama, there has been a great surge in the formal study of religion, and it is felt that the full truth of Silversan's vision for a Pristine Chapel is about to be realized within the decade. And even as the preliminary excavations for a chapel are begun, the line of Carbon-sama is cut short with the surprising and premature death of Carbon-sama's grandchild before he could produce an heir. In mourning, the people of Japan planted trees in the lawn of Carbon-sama I in memory of the Great Carbon-sama the Golden, who restored his formerly infamous (or even notorious) House to glory and honor.


Okay, here's the scoop:

We're 1 turn away from Theology. I've started a Cathedral in Kyoto as a placeholder (though only one turn into it, I completed a Library in Kyoto on the turn before my last). I believe all the towns in dotland and the Isle of Verses have temples now (i built a temple instead of a granary in green dot since it was stuck at size 2 until i could clear jungle or raise its culture, so I raised the culture first. It's now building a courthouse though you can change it at any time to whatever w/o losing shields since its production sucks so badly).

The Golden Age was begun with the completion of the Great Wall in 150 AD, five turns into my reign. I perhaps should have gone to Republic before that, but I still had a lot of whipping I wanted to do in Dotland while I could. Now that all of our towns are growing culturally, it might be worth wasting a Golden Age turn on anarchy to get better production under Republicanism (or they could all be hopelessly corrupt under any government). I'm glad I don't have to make that choice. As long as we're on this research track, we might even be able to just jump straight to Democracy (with maybe a pit stop in Chivalry for some Samurai or Music Theory for J.S. Bach's).

Also, the Iroquois give me a bad feeling. They lost a city right next to their capital to the Romans, and I can't tell whether Salamanca will fall, and if it does fall, whether the AI will chose to relocate to another mainland city or to one of the settlements near us. We might want to consider war on the Iroquois to rout them off of Dotland (and to perhaps exploit the Romans out of a few more gold for an alliance). In related news, the Romans canceled the RoP agreement for 3g/turn, but I was able to get it back at 2g/turn). The rest of the agreements are still in force, but I don't know for how long.

Taking a look at the histogram, we're kicking butt and taking names in all the categories. Methinks that this game is all over except for the shouting. Here's hoping for more good times ahead, Charis.

I forgot that the chapel was supposed to go into Osaka instead of Kyoto. It doesn't make a difference, as Osaka still has got quite a long ways to go on that palace it's building, and Kyoto could still use a cathedral.

As for what I did with the workers during my turn, I did a lot of road building. I got the two tundra paradise cities connected to the roads, and in Dotland White Dot got connected to Yellow Dot and a slightly augmented team of three workers is churning away in the mountains towards Yokohama and eventually Green Dot. On the mainland I managed to connect the rest of the luxuries to roads, though they're all redundant ones, I can't remember if we can trade them or not until there are roads built on them. In any case, it might be a while until we can trade those away as we seem to lack the appropriate trade routes.

Some comments:

- We're already getting to the point where we want to be ultra-stingy in what techs we give to the AI empires, if any. We could easily bust open a big tech lead if we go directly for Education followed by Banking and Democracy and/or Economics.
- The alternative after we get Education (and probably Banking, need to fund the army) would be to get Navigation, build Magellan's, get Chivalry, and start pumping out Samauri & Caravels... but odds are the others will all have Knights by then anyway. Maybe not in quantity, but enough to slow us down to the point where a sea-borne invasion would probably be impractical.
- Is there even anything worthwhile attacking, other than the pathetic local Iro colonies? Corruption effects will be brutal on the other continents. We might need to go to Democracy just to get any kind of reasonable use out of foreign colonies, and hence before we start thinking about building up for an offensive war. Unless Republic is better at squelching corruption than I expect, the only way I see us getting into a wartime situation before Democracy is if the Iroquois get pissed off at us, or we decide to take out their nearby colonies.
- If the Iroquois capital does come out our way, we shouldn't worry too much about wiping out their local colonies. Their mainland colonies will become hopelessly corrupted if that happens; we should just be able to beef up our military a tad and take over their local colonies (capital last) while Rome (or whoever) wipes them out on their mainland. Failing that, Mauch Chunk (what kind of a name is that!?!) should culture-flip to us anyway.

Very nice to start the working day with a cup of coffee and those great storys of Sirian an Carbon Copy :)

Looking forward to check the savegames tonight.

... back to work-mode :(

I'll be able to play this tonight, should be a quiet turn, but the question of the hour is, what is the next path. I'm leaning more toward the Education, Bach's, Democracy route, and tech rush to a cultural (or early space) victory. While the Samurai are great units, trying to get enough overseas for a decisive advantage seems impractical, and as pointed out, what do we gain?? I'm thinking more that we have all the land we ever need (except for the doomed-to-flip Chauk) and no is going to have any chance, ever, of taking us on in war. (If they do however, they can expect a fierce, fierce, retaliation.)

That's just my prelim thought, I'll look closer tonight, and see if others chime in.
Charis

I'd rather hold off on the decision as to what victory path to pursue for a bit. Right now it looks like we could pretty much pick whatever we want. We probably won't be able to make good use of Samurai, unfortunately, but one possible alternative to space/cultural would be to zip up to Democracy/Bach's/Adam Smith's, get Chivalry & start cranking out Samurai & Caravels, get Leonardo's, get Magnetism and Military Traditions, upgrade everything, and blitzkrieg the world for a Domination victory. There's no way they'll have anything better than musketmen (at best) by then, and we could easily build up a massive army by the time we get Military Traditions.

Regardless, it all starts with going towards Democracy/Bach's/Adam Smith's. We should probably wait and see what the state of the AI empires is when we get those before we make a decision.

Even if we don't go for a Domination win, I'd like to make some use of our Militaristic attribute, so as to potentially get some Great Leaders going. For instance, one thing we could potentially do is conquer some cities and then sell them back, to drain the AI of cash & keep them focussed on military rather than science/economy, or go on pillaging & slave capturing expeditions -- once we can get to them in the first place, of course. Or else we could just wait for Privateers...

The year was 250 AD, and it was a glorious time for the Empire of Japan.
The hearts of the people were full of faith, their bellies full of rice,
and their barracks full of strong warriors. A golden age had truly begun.
Sadly, there was a dispute for power, and the mighty Carbon-sama was displaced.
That vicious leader, he who has no name, was spoken against by the prophets.
Anarchy arose! Yet, with the guidance of the verses, anarchy had no foothold,
and Charisan, descendent of the great and mighty Charisgawa, was chosen
unanimouisly to lead the great people of Japan.

250 AD (0) - The last turn for despotism, as we learned the secrets of theology.
While we had the chance, whipped a harbor in Whale town. (And next turn a
Cathedral in Sasuma)

260 AD (1) - The arrival of Theology renders the old ways of the Oracle in Thebes
obsolete (much like their civilization.) This is what finally kicks off the
anarchy.

270 AD (2) - The anarchy is over as soon as it begins! We're now a Republic,
and seeing a nice increase in production, compounded by the Golden Age.
All across the land, people are self-motivated to push production. Although
Feudalism is tempting to head to Samurai, Education is chosing, towards Bach
and democracy.

280 AD (3) - Osaka is due for Sistine in 6 turns. Minor worker movement, and
careful watching of shields, production, science, and happiness. The taste
that anarchy left in our mouths calls for a time of precise leadership in
this Golden Age.

290 AD (4) - The Iroqouis are building the Great Library, we are told. We will
likely let them have it, unless we run out of improvements to make in a city
and are still in the Golden era. Several cathedrals and libraries are finished,
and cultural borders expand, putting more pressure on Mauch Chunk.

300 AD (5) - The arrogant Romans want an alliance vs the Iroquis. We tell the
gaijin that the Verses are not aligned with their quest for conquest. We show
them our map, full of bright yellow and white dots, and tell them where,
one day, it is fortold, we will settle. Caesar is dismayed to see several
dots in his homeland. The Palace is expanded as well.

310 AD (6) - We discover the secrets of education, and press for...
Music Theory! A wonder which goes along with religious civs and golden ages,
and which decreases discontent by two per city on the great continent.
We even find a new source of iron, in the South just outside of Matsuyama.

320 AD (7) - More aqueducts finished, more cathedrals started. With three turns
left to learn Music Theory, Kyoto switches from marketplace to a University
placeholder, and we can switch to Bach's just before it completes.

330 AD (8) - The people want to read more, and some library projects begun.

340 AD (9) - The people of Osaka complete the Sistene chapel! This glorious
news spreads throughout the Valley like a sacred bonfire, and the people are
just delighted!! Osaka starts a University, to study Theology.

With the Chapel in place, and the golden age in full swing, Charisan decides
it is a time to celebrate. He allows, in some cities that have never seen them,
dancers and entertainers. He runs at no federal luxury spending, the people
are so happy. (This switch saved almost 30 gold per turn vs 10% luxuries)
The only places that needed the entertainment, btw, were those building
cathedrals - they're just a few turns away from that.

350 AD (10) - ROmans and Iroqouis sign a peace treaty. We learn Music Theory,
and Kyoto takes up the building of a *great* cathedral, the likes of which
has never been seen! We choose Astronomy, not for the ships, but due to the
rumor of a great Observatory by Copernicus! Charisan is QUITE happy on his
own island and has no interest whatsoever in exploring lesser gaijin lands.
(Should the next king differ, we just started this turn, so he can switch
without penalty.) Kyoto switches and will complete Bach's in 14 turns (if
the Golden Age holds out). Thebes is put on Palace placeholder, but the next
leader may prefer not to do this, and could build a Colliseum in Thebes instead.

Charisan gets reports back from his envoys, who give our map as a love token,
who find out we have a two tech lead on everyone, and equal military to all
(except Iroqouis, who we exceed.) That's sad, as we've spent not a dime on
military in so many years Charisan cannot remember.

Best wishes to the next leader, whomsoever the Verses may choose...

I'm up next but I'm not sure when I'll be able to get my turn in. Will let you know...

Can't sleep, so I guess I'll take my turn now...

During the time between 350 AD and 450 AD, Japan's Senate came under the leadership of Zedrick II the Somnambulent, so named because it was often said by later rulers that he did nothing but sleep through his term of office. He was afforded this luxury on the basis of the admirable work done by the previous several rulers, such that nothing needed substantial changes during his term, and by the continued isolation of Japan from the various petty conflicts that occurred across the rest of the known world.

360 AD: Nagasaki builds Cathedral & starts Library, Greece declares war on Romans

380 AD: Tokyo completes Cathedral & starts Library, Kagoshima completes Library & starts Harbour, Nagoya completes Cathedral & starts Library

390 AD: Astronomy discovered & start research on Banking, Thebes changes from Palace to Copernicus Observatory

400 AD: Golden Age ends, Whale of a Town completes Library & starts Aqueduct

410 AD: Osaka completes Cathedral & starts Library, Edo completes aqueduct & starts Cathedral

420 AD: Kagoshima completes Harbour & starts Marketplace, Nara completes aqueduct & starts Cathedral, Matsuyama completes Harbour & starts Courthouse.

440 AD: Nagasaki builds Library & starts Harbour, Banking is discovered and research changed to Printing Press. Zedrick II wakes up from his morning-noon-afternoon nap one day and notices that the treasury is running low and has fallen below 200 gold; all those Cathedrals are expensive! Since we still can't trade our surplus luxuries with anyone, there's no real way to make money off the other Civs yet (short of selling them tech, which is unlikely,) Zedrick reduces the science rate from 70% to 40% to get some positive cash flow going again. Need more Marketplaces in the smaller towns and Banks in the larger cities.

450 AD: Nagoya completes a Library & starts a Marketplace. As Zedrick's term of office ends, he takes a quick look at the world political situation; it looks like the Romans are doing fairly well in their wars against the Greeks and Iroquois, having taken Salamanca (and the Great Lighthouse) as well as Sparta. A Roman galley is spotted off the west coast of Japan, but is studiously ignored by the people.

Advice from Zedrick to the next leader -- pretty smooth sailing, though keep an eye on the cash flow with an eye towards bumping science back up when possible. Also keep an eye on cities that have recently built aqueducts (like Edo, for instance) that may be growing past size 6 but have not yet built Cathedrals; some worker management may be needed to prevent unrest. The same applies in the island colonies, which were pretty much left to their own devices during Zedrick's term of office.

Now that Rome has the lighthouse and not the Iros, I think the time is ripe for the next ruler to kick the Iroquois out of this hemisphere, since they can't send any sort of reinforcements.

And now that we have Astronomy, we can safely use sea squares as well, right?

If so, then we should have what passes for a sea route to the other countries (or at least to Rome), unless the ability to reach the other party's ports needs to be bilateral. I've never ever been able to figure out exactly what it was that creates "sea routes" to other civs.

The Iro capital is in Allegheny, on their main continent. So, yes they can't really retaliate. OTOH, we don't have much of a military to hit them with either. Are they worth the bother? Up to the next leader (Jaffa I believe.) If we still have any swordsmen around, they're expendable...

As for trade routes, nope, don't have them -- I would have been happy to trade some luxuries for cash but no can do. We have 3 ocean (not just sea) squares between us & the other main continents; hence we need Magnetism. Trade routes don't benefit from the Lighthouse or Magellan's either. :(

EDIT: Someone in another thread suggested Navigation would also let us trade over Ocean squares; I checked it out and it allows both that and Caravels to travel the ocean, so if we really want trade we could check that out... might be good to deplete the AI of their cash & bolster ours. I vote we go for it. :)

EDIT: Incidentally, speaking of trading, I neglected to shop Republic around to the 2 civs that don't yet have it. Since the other 2 AI civs already do, the next leader might want to try to get some cash for it.

Everyone please post your opinion as to whether you would prefer to go towards a cultural/tech victory or a Domination/Sole Survivor victory... we will be getting Democracy soon and need to start deciding how much production to switch from city improvements to military. Are we building a defensive/harrassing military force or an army large enough that, after upgrades, it can take on the world? We will probably need to come to a consensus in the next 10-20 turns so get your votes in now!

Charis: I'm assuming you'd still prefer a cultural victory.
Zed: I'm leaning towards blitzkrieg while still working toward a long-term cultural victory. That would mean our core cities (Kyoto, Osaka, Thebes, ?) would primarily focus on Wonders and city improvements in general while secondary coastal cities like Tokyo would build up some cultural improvements then concentrate on military. It seems to me that all we need to do to win a cultural/space victory is keep building city improvements and hit next turn for about 1000 years, as we're pretty much unassailable so long as we don't completely neglect military -- too easy, and we won't learn as much. :)

There's no way this game will last to a cultural victory. Spaceship, maybe. The followers of the Second Prophet, Carbon the Liberator, will surely organize their own expeditionary force at some point, and justify it with references to the Two Hands, even as religious leaders build their cathedrals and great projects.

I vote for war. When have any of you seen this kind of production and territorial lead at this point? Two ancient leaders put us over the top. We can finish this thing early, without even doing the whip-o-rama loophole that invariably identifies early conquest games. Yes, we need navigation, for the ability to cross the ocean, and we need feudalism to train our hordes of samurai. We would have to devote the whole empire to the cause, but samurai are fast units, meaning they don't much die against most foes. Retreat, heal up, go at it again. That sort of war would take long enough for most everyone in the rotation to get a taste of it.

Of course, waiting won't really hurt us. We collectively beat this map by the end of the first round and Egypt's demise, the rest is mainly a matter of deciding our path to victory and enjoying the ride. We could wait and build more infrastructure, which is what I would do on a larger map, but I smell blood. ... Don't you?

:jesus: :ninja: :ninja: :queen: :ninja: :ninja: :satan:

If we can plunk down nine or twelve samurai onto the shores of the gaijen at one time, that will be all She wrote.


- Sirian

If we go for an immediate Domination victory using Samurai we may not need nor want Democracy, as the war will be relatively long and war weariness will become a factor, and we really don't need enhanced worker speed since we don't have a big rail net to build. In that event we might want to switch right away to Navigation.

I still think we ought to keep Kyoto, Osaka, and Thebes concentrated on development before military, to ensure our finances and research efforts remain healthy. Once we get to the bottom half of the tech tree there really isn't anything in the way of improvements or Wonders (besides Leonardo's Workshop) that we might want to build, so there will be plenty of time to build military then. Kyoto and Thebes just need Universities and Banks to be in good shape, while Osaka has a bit further to go. As far as the coastal cities go, in my view they should all at least have Aqueducts, Cathedrals, Marketplaces, maybe Libraries, and of course Barracks and Harbours, before they start on military units. Several of them are close to being in this position, and Izumo is already building a University, which we should switch to a Bank (more useful and done sooner) if we decide to go military.

The concept of building up a massive, irresistable army of Cavalry, and taking the world in one fell swoop, appeals to me... but I can smell blood too. :)

The followers of Charis are this time divided...

Charisgawa, father of Tojo, is convinced that Samurai should bring swift and potent retribution to all who do not pay homage to the verses!

Charisan thinks that our mission is to flourish in, and protect the valley, and let others share in that golden vision by culturally persuading them.

I think we have our choice. The more 'fun' one will be to acknowledge the smell of blood in the air and go for it. Alas, the ocean and the need for Navigation is not good. The unit we would want to do this with, the Samurai, has a major advantage pre-Pikeman. Once they get Musketmen, the next advantage as large is Cavalry. 8-\ I would really hate to see us do THIS well early, then never see Samurai enter glorious battle. So what we must do, do quickly. Techwise, beeline Feudalism, Chivalry, Navigation, then crank out a dozen Samurai and four Caravel.
If the city with the Great Lighthouse, Salamance, were closer, we could cross fingers and sail across ocean to take it quickly.

Charis

Look at the map, Salamanca is 13 tiles away almost due east from Satsuma, which (assuming we have Navigation and won't sink into the ocean) is 4 turns and change without the Lighthouse, and if we capture it only 3 and change for subsequent voyages until we get Magnetism. Also, Allegheny is only 11 tiles away from Whale town, should we decide to launch "expeditionary forces" over there after booting the Iroquois from what are rightfully Japanese lands.

And yes, I have much doubt that Charisgawa will find Mauch Chunk in Iroquois hands the next time that he plays. :soldier:

Looks like the consensus is... war! :hammer:

We should get Navigation first off before going for Chivalry so we can trade with the AI empires and bleed their cash reserves before we go to war. Also our coastal towns need a bit of time to build infrastructure depending on the town, but if they get done before we research Chivalry we can always start pumping out Caravels.

We could build Magellan's Voyage in Thebes but it is probably not worthwhile. Capturing the Lighthouse should suffice.

"What's that? Speak up, will you. My ears aren't what they used to be. What? It's war, you say? Very well, to war! Summon my chariot!"

"But, my lord emperor, I fear there is to be no actual fighting. The Greeks have paid us handsomely to declare war upon the Romans, but we are not yet able to cross the seas to their land. Our scientists promise that the new navigational instruments will be ready soon."

"Bah! This phoney war is unfitting for our great nation. But, if that is the way it must be. Summon our armies to Satsuma and conduct some training exercises, or something."

"Yes, my lord."

So the armies were gathered in Satsuma, aboard the great Japanese fleet. Three mighty ships sailing back and forth in the tiny harbor. The citizens were so impressed, they came to the Emperor's palace and built new extensions upon it while he slept. Three times :)

The scientists delivered the new navigational instruments, as promised. But the army was still being collected, so the royal fleet has not yet left Satsuma. However trade ships have been able to sail, though they find the rest of the world to be very impoverished. New wines from Germany were delivered to the citizens. There was much drunken celebration in the streets, which further impeded the gathering of the imperial army.

Reports from overseas tell us that the Greeks are not doing very well in the war with the Romans.

On his deathbed, the old Emperor demanded the fleet be launched immediately, without waiting for the new samurai warriors that will soon be available. However the last two pikemen are still in transit, so this order has not yet been enacted. Who knows what the new Emperor will decide...

And I think I played one turn more than I should have :P

There's no need to rush. Certainly not to risk our royal troops on uncertain navigation instruments when we are one tech away from completely secure sea travel. If a leader rushed the attack and lost whole armies at sea, he might not be remembered fondly.

It's going to take time to build up samurai, but there is PLENTY of room for error in any war we conduct. One thing we could do while waiting for feudalism is to build a number of catapults. We can build three for the cost of one samurai, so if six of them save two samurai, they pay for themselves, and we could launch, say, six samurai and six catapults for an earlier initial assault. We WILL have to continue to send reinforcements, even if we burn down every gaijen city. If we capture more than a couple, to go for Domination instead of Conquest, we're going to have to ferry massive garrisons over there.

I see the Lighthouse/Magellan as a nonissue. Capturing the Lighthouse would shorten the trip by a few turns, but we could also just build a couple extra ships. Think of it in terms of running a rail system. If the trains all travel at 60 miles an hour, and hold 100 passengers, on an express line where the two stations are 30 miles apart and attract 300 passengers per hour, you would need three trains per hour arriving in the station to pick up all the passengers. At 60 miles per hour, each train could make the round trip in one hour, so only three would be needed. However, if the trains were only able to average 40 miles an hour, it would take them 1:30 to make the round trip, meaning you would need 4.5 trains total to handle the passenger load. And since you could not run half a train, that would mean 5 trains would be needed, running every 20 minutes with a 5 minute layover for loading at each end of the line.

The point being, that you can haul the same volume at the same rate with slower travelling ships by building a couple of extra ships. Once we start to pour on the heat, there can be no letting up. If war weariness grows too high, flip back to monarchy, end of that problem. All we'll need cash for at that point anyway is to pay the troops, pay maintenance on the buildings, and have some for rushing barracks in strategic locations (occasional captured cities or razed-then-resettled locations) to have a base from which to heal up wounded units.

As for Charis's fears about pikemen, pssh. Charisan frets too much. :) Charisgawa knows that fast-unit retreat mostly renders the whole point moot, since unless the defenders are STRONGER than you, as well as bolstered by large-city defense bonuses, then losses from being unable to retreat from units with only one hp left will be moderate to light, easily overcome by a steady stream of reinforcements. And if losses are too heavy, you slow the pace, add more catapults, and cut down on exposure of your samurai.

In any event, the greatest danger is trying to take too much too swiftly, dividing forces too thinly and exposing wounded troops to counterattack, or taking losses and then not having enough troops on hand to press to victory, and letting defenders regroup. These AI's are already torn by war, they've spent most of their extra units fighting each other. A steady, unrelenting campaign is sure to doom them.

We might even want to switch to Monarchy as we declare war, to gain the advantages of martial law, rather than wait for weariness to set in. We get won't lose all that much cash, since we won't have to raise luxuries to counter war weariness, unit maintenance will drop, and we're going to have a LOT of units and build more as we go. Monarchy kind of sucks early on because all the settlements are too small, but later it actually comes back as a good option for religious civs going to extended war. We won't suffer the despotism penalties, so no starvation at cities stretched for food, and we can still rushbuild anywhere we like, with cash, at no unhappiness penalty, rather than having to have population on hand to whip.

I actually prefer Monarchy to Communism as a wartime government later on. Get out from under endless war weariness, but otherwise continue to function smoothly. Communism is probably stronger in most regards, but the whipping is a double edged sword, which erodes your longer term potential. The spread out corruption helps boost distant colonies, but those get used just for whipping anyway, and strength at home is eroded in the strongest power centers. Then again, I mostly just make sure to build Suffrage and Police Stations, and rotate wars from democracy while extending a tech lead. The AI's vulnerability and the speed of rails means blitzkrieg: the war can be ended as soon as the enemy will talk to you again. In the middle ages, it is certain to take longer to win, and without the weariness reducers... I doubt a Republic can stand up to it.

But honestly, what would we need or want from more tech?? To build muskets? Bwahaha! :rotfl: For 10 more shields, get a samurai with the same defense, double the attack, double the movement, retreat option, no need for saltpeter, etc etc. Longbows? Democracy? Wonders? What for? :) Cavalry would be nice, but that's a gazillion more techs away, the war and the game should be over by then, I would think.


- Sirian

Got it :)

... will play in the next few hours

Nothing special ...

... preparing for war. Building barracks, catapults and samurai while leaving the decision when to start war for a greater leader ;)

The Germans finished the Great Libary and someone else started Sun Tzus.

I don't think the issue with Lighthouse is so much whether we need it (obviously not) but, since we can get it easily and it will help some with logistics, why not? It also prevents any enemy civ from launching any retaliatory strikes against Nippon itself -- not that that's a cause for concern, but why not make it impossible to begin with? :)

Kyoto is building Sun Tzu, and Nagoya is building Magellan's... not sure we want either of those. Maybe we could switch Kyoto to Leonardo's Workshop when we get Invention, and Nagoya to a Bank or something, and get it working on Samurai. Thebes and Kyoto still need Banks and Universities -- especially the latter in Thebes since it has Copernicus's Observatory...

I agree that Monarchy is probably a good plan. We will lose the extra trade per square bonus, but the free units should take up the slack. I don't think we will need to worry about martial law in our own towns since Sistine and Bach's will take care of them, but it will be useful in conquered territory.

We could probably have taken out the local Iroquois colonies while waiting for Samurai... but it's not a big deal. :)

Originally posted by Zed-F
We could probably have taken out the local Iroquois colonies while waiting for Samurai... but it's not a big deal. :)

We could .. but I figured trading with them would be more useful. They were the only Civ to give us anything approaching a decent deal for our luxuries, when I checked after getting Navigation.

The Germans gave us wines, but demanded all three of our luxuries in exchange. The Greeks offered like 6 gold and a world map :rolleyes:

... preparing for war. Building barracks, catapults and samurai while leaving the decision when to start war for a greater leader ;)

While Nippon searches for this elusive "greater leader", a few ships quietly slip out of the harbor...

:goodjob:

... well they might not know yet ... but they are doomed :soldier:

And I did SO want to raze that ridiculous Mauch Chunk off of Dotland. But if we're getting good deals from the downward-spiraling Iroquois, I can tolerate that blight upon our land for a bit longer and work on culture-flipping it, instead. :lol:

In the year 650AD, a group of eleven children from Whale of a Town disappeared. Two mothers of the vanished reported tearfully of their young sons excitedly describing to them an encounter in the woods. The boys claimed to have come upon a secret meeting of ninja discussing something heatedly. Among them, or so said the boys, was a frail old man with jet black hair on the left side of his head, and snow white on the right. The mothers wept as they confessed to dismissing these reports as the fancies of children. Their sons, and the other eight who had been playing with them in the woods, were gone now, with no trace, no witness, no explanation.

Warlords across the heartland scoffed at this tale, too, but one brave soul from the line of Charisgawa got nervous and decided to check the crypt of Silversan at Kyoto, which had been sealed with the mummified body inside some centuries ago. The body of Silversan was not there.

:ninja: :jesus: :ninja:

Told-You-So's from all over the empire rose up out of the woodwork to proclaim that the Third Prophet had arisen, claiming that the second long sleep he endured was not a true death, as many had long argued, and therefore he was due another resurrection before the prophecy could be fulfilled. Many who had scoffed or quietly disagreed now began to wonder.

And then the Ninja returned.

A force of hundreds of fierce-looking ninja, dressed not in black but in traditional Nipponese war garb, arrived (from where? who knows) at the docks of Spice Town, as it was known locally.

"Prepare these ships. The time of armageddon has come."

Huh?

None dared argue, and so the Ninja, leading all of the garrisons of swordsmen from the nearby countryside, and outfitted with many bulky engines of siege warfare, did set sail to the east, out into the vast ocean, without so much as a word of explanation, and the soldiers followed them. It is said that so many ships sailed, that watching them in the sunrise was like watching a nest of ants marching off to make war on hapless termites.

Over the next thirty years, ninja appeared in every city in the land and opened new military barracks, which they called "Dojo". New arts of warfare were taught in the dojos, training warriors so skilled and so fierce, that none could stand before them. One by one, each city completed its current projects and changed over its focus solely to that of training fierce warriors in the dojos.

One conversation was recorded in Thebes, where the ninjitsu master who ran the new Dojo was taken on a tour of the great Observatory. It is written that when he looked through the lens of the great telescope, that he rose with a most unimpressed expression and said, "This is useless. I cannot see Rome from here, nor Greece, nor Germany."

The sage in charge of the observatory told him, "But Master, it is from this great instrument that we have learned to chart the stars. This is how we have deciphered the true nature of the Mother's Eyes in the night sky, and learned to safely navigate across the oceans."

"Oh? Hmmph!" grunted the ninja. "That is a good thing then. But we have learned this now." He waved his hands to his guards. "Shut this place down. We have need of these men in the Dojo."

So it was that all scientific inquiry and research was halted completely across Nippon in the year 670 AD. The entire economic production was shifted over to the training of fierce samurai, and all the taxes collected were dedicated to the military budget, save those essential for maintaining city infrastructures.

In 680 AD, the most glorious Hanging Gardens of the Great Mother was completed in Kyoto, and on this very site, a new and wondrous dojo was opened: Silversan's Dojo. The Third Prophet himself was not seen -- nobody had yet seen him anywhere, but surely he must be alive again, for who else could direct such a massive effort among our people and be obeyed? Surely the ancient one must live again! It is even said that his ninja had eyes and ears everywhere, for it certainly was true that ninja came in the dead of night to execute any who spoke too loudly for too long against the idea of the Prophet's return.

Silversan's Dojo was the undisputed best, churning out the most fierce warriors in the least amount of time. The graduation rate was triple that of many other dojos, and certain none could even pretend to rival it. Only the best and brightest were given to train at Silversan's Dojo. An entire fleet of ships was needed to carry the warriors of this one dojo across the sea! Truly, it was the envy of every other city.

Yet for all that the greatest dojo trained warriors so efficiently, still the bulk of our armies swelled from the total effort, as every city on the mainland contributed to the war effort.

In 690 AD, after a lengthy and brutal bombardment by our siege engines, our elite swordsmen all but walked into Salamanca and took it over, capturing the great Lighthouse and the Colossus. The Final Campaign to take control of the whole of the earth, in the Mother's glorious name, was begun.

In 710 AD, Grand River was besieged, then burned to the ground, once again with all but no losses from our elite expeditionary force. Excitement spread across the land, and predictions of our samurai sweeping the earth clean of all gaijen resistance within the next generation spread like wildfire across Nippon.

Just a few months later, these whispers ended as stark reality set in. A single army of the Roman Legion, which had bypassed our assault force at Grand River and penetrated behind the lines, toward Salamanca, was engaged by FOUR Nipponese armies and TURNED THEM ALL BACK! Three forces of samurai WERE DEFEATED and sent retreating back to Salamanca, while an entire brigade of swordsmen were routed and wiped out, unable to escape the debacle.

Then our reinforcements arrived, well enough in time to secure the defense of Salamanca, but not before our warlords learned the humility of combined arms. Forsooth, when bombarded by a steady rain of rocks and fire from the sky, the fierce Roman can be shaken and demoralized, and routed from the field, albeit still at some cost. The Legion is their elite force, and it is the only worthy threat they pose, or so our warlords believe. Their other troops are softer, less well trained, less well armed. Our samurai are more than a match for the Legion, on the whole, but we must take care lest our arrogance lead us to another such defeat as that of Osaka. The Second Prophet, Carbon the Liberator, would not be pleased if He too had to rise from the dead, as Silversan, to come and Liberate cities we have lost to the enemy out of ill preparation and complacency.

In 720 AD, with proper support from siege engines, our reinforcements routed the vanguard of the Roman Legion and took control of the area around Salamanca and former Grand River (now Empty Plain). But then more Roman forces advanced on our positions. The Ninja cancelled our diplomatic treaties with the Iroquois, offering neither them, nor us, any explanation.

In 730 AD, another unit of the Legion met our elite swords in battle AND DEFEATED THEM! This, after our swords had won a battle against another Legion force just the year before. The war in the West is surely going well for us, but the costs are higher and the pace of gains slower than some had forecast. After routing the advance Roman units, our Samurai marched on Sparta and captured it in a fierce but brief battle. Scouts report that Caesar's own Palace Guard, his most elite Legion, sits garrisoned in the mountains above Sparta, daring us to advance any farther. Our warlords have decided to dig in and Sparta and wait for the Ninja to take control of the Iroquois lands, so that we may then be able to fight on a single front. For some reason, the difficult battles with the Romans have led them to conclude that "a two front war is a bad idea", and thus to sieze all of the Far West now, before our force becomes divided.

In 740 AD, Nippon declares war on the Iroquois. Our glorious forces attack the offending Gaijen at Red Dot City (which in Iro Speak translates to "Mauch Chunk"). What demons were unleashed, we do not know nor understand. Our force of swordsmen was routed, slain without so much as setting foot inside the city, and our Samurai were defeated and pushed back. It is said that we were Cursed, for some reason, and that only minor losses were inflicted on the Iroquois. This defeat is most ignominious, and the warlord of that area has been beheaded, and will be replaced with a new commander at the dojo in Yokahama. This defeat simply defies explanation, for we outnumbered the foe, and were better equipped. Apparently, the gaijen Iro are not as soft as some had thought. Not even the Mother could overlook their bravery and skill, as surely we have done something to displease Her on Dot-Sun Island.

In 750 AD, Allegheny was burned to the ground. The Iro are on the run, despite their glorious stand on Dot-Sun. Once the warlords up there regroup, vengeance will surely be ours. All of Nippon now trains our people to fight these bitter foes, Rome and Iroquois, while the Greeks fawn at our feet with admiration, and the Germans quietly buy our trade goods. They seek to curry our favor, but as to whether they shall be allowed to live in peace or not, is a question for another generation to answer.

Also in 750 AD, our expeditionary force has landed a surprise assault on the eastern Roman island. It is hoped that this area will be lightly defended, as the Romans speed their forces westward to meet our vanguard, the instrument of their doom.

Silversan's Dojo can train an entire force of Samurai in just 30 years, IF the city is managed well, pulling workers from one of the wheat fields two turns out of three, to work in the forest. Our people can eat grain from stores during these years, then work the wheat field again for a short time to replenish the granary.

Although the Gaijen have been found to put up fierce resistance to our holy crusade to ascend to control of the entire world, in the Mother's name, they are less numerous than we are, and they cannot possibly be as relentless once we commit, as we have. Many glorious battles await! Perhaps some will even be so wondrous as to be worthy of writing an epic history! Surely if a great leader emerges, he must be put in charge of a vast army, to lead a force that no gaijen Legionary might resist!

Cities where we want to locate barracks, strategically, can be preserved, the rest may be burned down. We can resettle them later if we so desire, to begin to work the lands. All of the cities have suffered brutal oppression at the hands of their masters, and the citizens there are warped with much bitterness, not only against us for enslaving them, but even against their own leaders. In some cases, better just to wipe away these corrupt sites and move on.

Our people have not had to switch to Monarchy, as public opinion has remained favorable so far, but surely the Ninja will install their own Shogun to run the nation if the elections start to go against them. Our surplus taxes are running over 200 gold per turn, almost enough to pay for a rushed samurai EACH TURN, in a location of our choice, or a building or two, or to save for an emergency. No great leader has emerged, as Ionsan predicted, but the Ninja and the ghost of Silversan have swept us into the Final War, seeing us through victory, defeat, advances and setbacks, and many worthy battles. Yet this is only the beginning, for surely it will take much labor to subdue the entire earth.


- the Order of Siriansan

The reason I have halted research is threefold:

1) We have all the tech we need.
2) The gold is useful for speeding our war effort.
3) Being the first to research a tech, takes longer to make the breakthrough. Why speed AI research by paving the road for them? If they do manage to get Gunpowder, it will slow our victory a little.

I went ahead and finished researching Invention, because my forebears had set that in motion, even though it may speed AI access to longbows, which would not be a good thing. Still, that might spice things up a bit in the endgame. We shall see. In the mean time, I converted everything to the war effort. The team voted for war, so to war I have led us.


- Sirian

Charisgawa can expect the new save file either very early this morning or sometime next evening.

Mauch Chunk shall be mine!!!! :soldier: :soldier: :soldier: ...if Silversan hasn't already razed it yet.

And as for GLs, my guess is an almost certainty that Charis won't find any to work with, either, since I NEVER get Great Leaders (just like I NEVER find Tarnhelms or Gulls...it just doesn't happen :mad: )

Even in the shadows of an apparently still-walking legend, politics must be politics, and in the year 750, the Japanese legislature appoints a charismatic and popular junior statesman to the position of Prime Minister. Charismatic because of his great smile and persuasive voice, popular because he was a bona fide heir to the House of Carbon, and though titles of nobility were officially abolished hundreds of years back, the Carbon family, such as it has survived, continued to be a political dynasty throughout the new Nihongo Republic. It is often speculated how good of a PM Carbon would have made on his own, but that is a matter for historians to speculate. It was no secret to anyone in Japan that the strings of government were still being pulled by the hands of Silver-san's ninjas and possibly still even the old man himself, as nobody has seen the body of Silver-san since its disappearance from the Royal Crypt in Kyoto a full hundred years ago.

While still the junior Senator from the Osaka district, PM Carbon had opposed the war with the Romans vehemently, maintaining that the true gaijin thread lay much closer to the Sacred Valley than Rome: The Iroquois. While the fighting versus the Iroquois continued to gain his full support under his administration, his efforts at aggression versus the gaijin Romans were half-hearted, at best, and only attempted under open protest to the counsel given by his Ninja-controlled cabinet.

As soon as he ascended to PM, the Romans and the Greeks made peace, leaving the Greeks with two meager towns sandwiched between Rome and Germany. The Romans were no longer fighting on two fronts, and to make morale even worse, nearly every military excercise executed under PM Carbon's first round of orders failed except for the seizure of a gaijin settler trying to refound the burnt town of Allegheny. Alas, the Impatient Carbon-san had not waited for troop placement to grant him the advantage, and was careful to make sure of this point in the future.

The next round of the Japanese offensive went much better, with the razing of Cattaraugas in the east, but more importantly with the razing of the Gaijin Iroquois town of Mauch Chunk on Dot-Sun Island. A settling party was rushed in nearby Yokohama to found a glorious city upon the ashes of that backwards gaijin campground. The settlement was named Promise Town, in memory of a promise made by his forefather, Carbon-Sama the Golden, that the Japanese should one day be rid of the gaijin desecrating the Great Mother's Dot-Sun Island.

Also during this time was Carbon-san's most successful expedition versus the Romans, the taking of the town of Pompeii, a Roman town just on the opposite side of a narrow strait from the city grounds of Rome, itself. Funds from the bottomless Japanese treasury were spent in Pompeii to quickly erect a dojo and a harbor in that town over the course of the Carbon administration.

In the year 790, the Roman campaign took a turn for the worse when an elite Legionary unit caught a badly wounded detachment of samurai along the Roman border. During the battle a Great Leader emerged from the Roman ranks to easily dispatch the ambushed samurai, only to then rush off towards the Roman interior beyond hope of pursuit like the dishonorable gaijin devil he was. :mad: Soon after, a grudging peace was granted with Rome, costing the defending gaijin the contents of their treasury, plus the greater part of their annual tax revenues and their most recent maps of the known world. And thus, the Roman Campaign ended in victory, such as it was, but the war versus the Romans is undoubtedly far from over.

While peace was being negotiated with the Romans, Japanese forces were landing by the boatful near the final city of the Iroquois homeland, Niagara Falls. When the combat engineers had rolled all the available catapault units into range, the battle for Niagara falls had begun. Once the city's defenses had fallen, the invading forces of roughly a dozen samurai divisions plus a handful of swordsmen, horsemen, and the last division of the venerable Japanese Chariot Corps rushed the town. All samurai coming from the south were rebuffed, but from the west the invasion was successful, with the only total casualty taken during the battle belonging to the obsolete but proud Charioteers upon the last wounded Iroquois defenders of the city. The Iroquois' only territory remaining were their island holdings to the northeast of the Japanese homelands, and those would be wrested from them in a matter of time. Already the focus of the Japanese war machine turned to nearby Oil Springs, rerouting several caravels to land just outside the new Iroquois capital, and in the declining years of Carbon-san's lengthy reign (The old man lasted to the astonishing age of 130, the longest span of years in Japanese history save perhaps that of immortal Silver-san himself, and he died in office), the second-to-last Iroquois City, Oil Springs, was taken. The (now extrememely) elder statesman, however, regretted that he might not live just a bit longer to see his family's foes vanquished, and died of old age even as the invasion force to dispatch the gaijin Iroquois forever drew within landing distance of the devils' last city. He left no official heir (though there was a brief scandal involving a member of his secretarial staff, but that ceased to be an issue when several of Carbon-san's political rivals in the Senate were found dead under mysterious circumstances :ninja: . Carbon-san himself denied any direct involvement and nobody really had the guts to investigate the matter further), his only companions in life were a burning hatred of the Iroquois and his handlers, the omnipresent Ninja of Silversan.

Info:

Currently at peace with the Romans, we took all their treasury and rake in most of their taxes in tribute so they should be more or less the same as I left them. EXCEPT they have a Great Leader from when i left a wounded samurai on border patrol. There are eight samurai garrisoned in Niagara Falls, and the rest of my military might, including all the catapaults, are fortified in Sparta. Captured workers are clearing away the jungles around Niagara and bulding a road from Sparta to Thermopylae.

War weariness only became an issue during the last three turns or so of my reign, and the war should only last two more turns, one to land caravels, the other to take the last Iro city. However, we will probably want to pick up with the Romans where we left off, so a switch to Monarchy could possibly be in order.

After razing Cattaraugas and moving east to Niagara, a barb camp sprung up almost immediately in that area. We want a settler down in that area somewhere, the hill southeast of the old Allegheny seems as good a spot as any.

We still want to be friends with the Germain gaijin, at least for the time being. If we polish off the Romans and the Greeks, it could be possible that we score a domination victory without even stepping foot in their territory. At the very least, war with the Germans is going to be more of a nuisance than it's worth. However, the Greeks are so weak that we might as well just march over their last two towns on our way to Rome (I suggest conquering through Thermopylae, as that will net us two incense, a luxury we don't currently possess).

I mostly built whatever the town last built, which is mainly ships, catapaults, and samurai. It seemed to work okay, as those are pretty much all we need to conduct business. I did rush-build a few buildings in towns overseas, but I'm almost gaining more money than I know how to spend. A military win definitely seems in the bag now, Roman army or no. :soldier:

Got it, will play early to mid eve. Took most of the afternoon
for the india game :)

Charis

Much had occurred since the last time the lines of Charis had seen power,
and the state of glorious Japan was at a crossroads. Many urged that the next
leader come from the line of Charisan, the wise and religious builder, while
others cried out for the sons of Charisgawa, father of Tojo. While the cabinet
was sitting at a table, trying to decide, a man (yea, though he looked like far
more than a mere man), a tremendous Samurai strode into the room. "Who are you?
Get out of here!" cried the secretary, Ginsan. The Samurai drew his Katana and
before anyone knew what was going on, the head of Ginsan had been severed from
its body and was bouncing off the table onto the floor. "This man is a Roman
spy." "WHO ARE YOU?!" "I am Charisgawaji, great-great-grandson of the master.
I am now taking charge." "What?" "It is done. We are now at war, and I have come
to reverse and put an end to foolishness as well as disrespect to our country."

"A nation that is not learning is a nation that is dying. Lack of knowledge does
not please the verses." With that he demanded that the knowledge of Gunpowder
be learned, so that we, and we ALONE might know, and hence secure, ALL worldly
occurrences of Saltpeter.

"There is no partial war. A nation is friend, or foe. If it is foe, it is foe to
the death. I am abhorrently appalled and ashamed of our behavior towards the
Iroqouis. They sought not war with us, but peace, and they were betrayed. I
hereby decree peace with them, not to be revoked unless they attack us."

"Two front wars are a losing battle. We will now face one enemy, and we will
swiftly sweep across their lands and take control. Their very hearts will melt
before our Samurai warriors. I have seen that another Great Leader will emerge.
It is simple. Great Leaders emerge when you do great things. Leaders are born
against you when you betray friends and when you let Gaijin dictate peace."

There was no further "discussion", and no more heads rolled...

850 AD (0) - Massive redeployment of Samuari, from ordered to sleep in their
barracks to the very doorsteps of Athens, Thermopolyae and Pharsalos.

860 AD (1) - The INSOLENT Romans demand we retreat. The head of a Roman envoy
is returned with a note "You have displeased the verses, prepare to die."
It is decreed that no new Catapults will be made beyond those already in
production. They are just too slow to keep up with our Samurai. We shall
rely on concentration of force and SPEED, not attrition!

Sun Tzu's Art of War is started in the Isle of the Verses. As a tribute to
them, a great leader will one day see this completed!

Apparently an Army was made with the murderous Roman leader. Rather than
defend his city of Athens, he... fled to mountains!

"So, he thinks he can let us take it then recapture? RAZE their city!"

870 AD (2) - HA!! The so-called-great leader came down from the mountain and
attacked Tojosanjitsan, a fortified elite samurai... the latter took one
single scratch of damage, and parried a devastating 12 times to slay the
puny excuse for an army. This was too pitiful for words to fully describe.
Our hope had been to lure him off the mountain then slay him, yet he was
not even strong enough to make it down off the mountain!

Unbelieavably insane moves by other nations. The Iroquis, who we gave
peace, had the nerve to call us SCUM as we sailed our ships past Tonawanda.
Charisgawa does not accept insolence, and the mighty armada of four ships
halt, turn around, and decide to bring an end to the Iroqouis nation.
In the same turn, Germans with whom we have shared our map land a single
Swordsman and a settler on the Roman Isle. What insolence?! Do they realize
who they are dealing with. May the Verses help them if they decide to settle
on our new continent!

Yet more foolishness! Barbarians show up on the Western coast of the Roman
continent. These are mere jars of clay to train veteran and elite Samurai!

The spearmen of Pharsalos are stronger than expected, and we rush a Samurai
in Pompeii at no little cost. A look at the domestic screen shows the people
very weary of war. Charisgawaji decides this is no time for democracy, but
for action. He institutes Marshall law, declaring himself as Emperor, the
sole and undisputed leader. With such confidence, the ararchy period is
quite short. Amazingly, the very choice to put aside Republic principles
for the good of the nation itself brings much much happiness. (ie many
uncontents became content, and many content happy, DURING the anarchy)

880 AD (3) - The big downside to the new order is that research slows to
a crawl (this must please the old order ;p). However, happiness is
rampant, and the people are ready to stick with war for the duration,
as long as mighty Japan prevails! A second German settler appears, this
time near Niagara falls and incense and horses. Will they still our
precious incense? Do they have any idea what this will lead to?!

Tonawanda manages to defeat one Samurai, but then falls. The remaining
Iroquois people bow to the superior ways of Nippon and join us. They are,
as a people, no more.

Thermopylae, home of the dreaded weed, is razed, as the last defender, a
mere archer, falls. We sent the elite samurai vs Cumae and... nothing. Well,
except the razing of Cumae of course.

As for Corinth... huh? It's now Greek?? How did that happen? Was it... Sold??
No Greek ships or troops seen at all? Ah, perhaps a reversion? Interesting.

890 AD (4) - We ask remaining peaceful countries to aide us in our war effort
with a 'gift' of gold. They refuse. Quite nastily in fact. charisgawaji makes
a note of this! A Legionary impales himself on a vet samurai, making him elite.
German settles Nuremberg on the ex-Roman continent. Bismarck must be crazed!!
Veii is razed.

900 AD (5) - Bismarck is MAD! He... cough... DEMANDS "Music Theory" from us. Yet
another envoy comes back with head severed from neck. The crazed man declares
war. That will be his last bad decision he ever makes! Nuremburg is added to
the "Raze me" list, and that roaming settler is toast! War weariness? Nay!
The people are frenzied with bloodlust, "We love the Shogun day" is celebrated
spontaneously throughout the land. Bismarcks timing is as bad as his judgement.
His declaration of war comes RIGHT as a fully loaded Caravel is crusing past
Nuremburg! An elite samurai mows down the roaming German swordsman as if a toy,
and captures two german workers. (Still, no GL)

910 AD (6) - The people cheer even more loudly, and build onto the palace.
Nuremburg falls (autoraze), sinking a German ship in dock. Pharsalos
finally falls. Gawaji respects their great prowess in defense, and
in suprising moves, spares the city. Now the people chant "Gawaji!!
Bane of gaijin dogs, merciful to those the Verses bless!"

Neopolis is razed, led by an elite samurai. A colony is built on the iron
deposits that lay under Neopolis, formed by one of their own workers.
The doubters of Gawaji wonder when/if Tojosanjitsan will arrive?!

920 AD (7) - Gunpowder is discovered, as are the secrets of Saltpeter deposits.
There are NONE found in the valley, a sure sign we are to rely on Samurai,
and not explosive powders. There is one deposit on the island of the
Verses, which also proves the mother is not ignorant of saltpeter, yet
wishes to keep it AWAY from the gaijin. There is a supply in our control
outside of Sparta, and one outside Niagara Falls, where one Samurai is
already standing guard. The Greeks have it next to them in Knossos, and
the Germans at Frankfurt and Konigsberg. We have much to do, and soon!
A temple in Niagara Falls is rushed to honor the Verses. The building
order for Nippon is simple: Samurai, Temple or Cathedral. Whale Town is
now the sole producer of Caravels. Rome is surrounded by Elite units. Will
this be the end of the Roman era and the start of a new almost Golden Age
for the bold men of Nippon? They defended as cornered dogs, but were
defeated. There was found to be no culture in Rome (!) and so it was not
seen as worthy of keeping. "You razed Rome?!" "But of course," answered
Charisgawaji. This made several in the government very very nervous, and
plans were laid in secret to try to remove him from power at first chance.

930 AD (8) - Ambush!! Off the coast of Niagara Falls, a Barbarian trireme
assaulted our galley. It was the height of insolence, and their last
mistake. Pisae is defeated and autorazed, leaving only Antium. The last
healthy Elite Samurai gathered outside the city. There were about eight
other units in the area if they failed, or if resistance was steep.
Hah! Steep resistance? ONE vet spearman, and it folded. A colony of Silk
was built on its ashes. The Romans were no more. The gunsights turned now
to Germany. Nippon is now a steamroller that cannot be stopped. We seek
to taunt Bismarck but he won't even listen (he fears the loss of another
envoy's head.) Alexander again refuses to provide a gift for our great
cause. Seeing how we singlehandedly protected him from Rome, this is seen
as most rude!

940 AD (9) - There is a goody hut just steps from Pisae that they didn't
have the boldness to investigate. There a vet Samurai disturbs the
barbarians and finds an ambush! He grows elite on the first of the
three foes, but a nearby worker is likely doomed. A ship sent long ago
to Konigsburg arrives. This is good - it will be a diversion opposite
the armada of about five ships due to land on the WEST shore of Germany
in a half dozen turns :) Also, we plop ourselves right on their
Saltpeter :P

950 AD (10) - The saltpeter road is pillage, and one stray spearman is
picked off near Konigsburg. We lose a worker but slay the second barbarian.

With the war against Rome over, Charisgawaji is adored by the people, and yet...
he feels the Verses no longer wish for him to rule, as the promised son of
Tojo has not appeared. Somehow, we lacked valor. He leaves it to his successors
to rid the evil German threat and to bring Greece to submission...

(Note, any seeming criticism in the above is PURELY the notion of Charisgawa,
who sees things in black and white. Charis finds no real fault in any actions
leading to this situation ;p)

Charisgawaji

Rip roaring hoot of a verse! Much LOL-ing and ROTFL-ing!

:rotfl: :lol: :rotfl:

The Iroquois! Now that was just too funny! :suicide:

Very good game from turn one!

Now, for the minor nit. Nihongo means literally "Japanese language" (and can only be used by outsiders, the Japanese call their own language something else, which escapes my memory presently). Nihon is Japan!

It's time to nuke the evil Gaijin off the face of the planet!

I mean, we're a bit of a ways away from the Manhattan Project. I think we're doing okay with just skewering them and chopping their heads off :ninja:

As for the Nihongo thing, bleh. Crazy foreign people, why bother having more than one word for such slightly different things when it's just gonna translate into "Japanese" in English at the end ;)?

Why, of all our cities, is Isle of the Verses building Sun Tzu's? Couldn't we just rush-buy a barracks there cheaper for the same effect? Nothing like a free barracks in every city on the landmass when the landmass is only large enough for one city! :eek: I smell pungent weed. [pimp] [pimp] [pimp]

Probably the BEST place for us to have Sun Tzu's would be on the formerly Roman continent, but we'd almost have to have a great leader rush it for it to be of any use to us.

And if we want to score a domination victory instead of a conquest, shouldn't we start building settlers somewhere? Or at least stop razing cities?

Domination is possible, but requires building cities (or quelling them), then rushing one or more culture per city, then waiting for borders to grow. In this case, it might be quicker just to sweep them all off the map.

- Sirian

Ok, got the ball. Will try to take a turn this evening.

Greece is toast. Germany is about to fall.

Jaffa, you will have a very short turn. If you don't annihilate Germany within the 1st decade I will be amazed. There are at least a half-dozen Samurai poised to take each of Germany's 2 remaining cities, and plenty of reinforcements around. The only reason Frankfurt hasn't been razed already is because it is behind some hills which slowed up our Samurai a bit.
Write-up to follow...

After the departure of Charisgawaji, the people looked to the new Shogun, Zedrick III, for leadership. Zedrick III was zealous regarding the duties of the Shogunate and mindful of the war against the gaijin, but he was also conscientious of his duties toward the people. In his day, the Japanese Senate was largely a powerless body, as he held the true reigns of power; nevertheless Zedrick III continued to allow it to exist, as it occasionally would come forward with a useful suggestion, and he foresaw a day when it would be needed again.

950 AD (0): Harbour purchased in Tonwanda to bring luxuries to the people of that island.

960 AD (1): A lone contingent of Samurai have claimed a mountain east of Konigsberg in Germany, in defiance of the gaijin swine. A unit of archers and a unit of warriors attack, and are destroyed. Tonwanda starts constructing a temple to the Mother. A Samurai on the tundra Island north of the Roman continent defeats an uncouth barbarian warrior. 2 more Samurai attack Konigsberg and are repulsed, they withdraw to the Mountain. 2 Samurai and a catapult land near Heidelberg.

970 AD (2): Two more units of gaijin warriors attack the Mountain Samurai and are again defeated - by this time all the Samurai on the Mountain are gravely depleted in strength and reduced to living off the land, but their determination remains as strong as ever. 2 Samurai attack Heidelberg and are repulsed. 2 more Samurai and a catapult land near Heidelberg.

980 AD (3): Zedrick III decides the time has come to remove the pitiful Greek presence from the Mother's earth, and declares war. Samurai move into position to attack Corinth, while 3 catapults and 3 Samurai land near Delphi. The assault on Heidelberg is stalled waiting for fresh troops.

990 AD (4): Corinth and Delphi are sacked and razed. A Caravel defeats a Greek Galley, defeating it but becoming heavily damaged in the process. Reinforcements consisting of 6 Samurai contingents land near Heidelberg.

1000 AD (5): The Mountain Samurai again defeat an attempt to dislodge them, destroying an archer brigade. They then spot an archer in the open, march out to destroy it, and withdraw to the safety of the mountain. 2 Samurai and a catapult land near Leipzig and prepare to attack. The Konigsberg survivors decide to make a break for it and attempt to link up with the Leipzig attackers. Our glorious Samurai finally overwhelm the defenders at Heidelberg and capture it. Heidelberg begins construction of a Barracks. Our wounded withdraw to the city while some of the Samurai and our catapults continue towards Berlin. Our catapults and Samurai move toward Knossos, while the damaged caravel moves toward the former location of Corinth to pick up the troops waiting there.

1010 AD (6): The Mountain Samurai defeat another archer brigade. Our Samurai assaulting Leipzig capture the city; production of a Barracks is begun. Resistance is ended in Heidelberg, and the barracks is purchased. The Konigsberg survivors arrive at Leipzig, and the Mountain Samurai decide that the time has come to withdraw there as well. Knossos repulses an attack by elite Samurai.

1020 AD (7): The Mountain Samurai are ambushed while en route to Leipzig! They fight valiantly and slay many of the enemy archers, but they have been fighting so long on the mountain that they cannot remember how to fight well on the plains, and are eventually destroyed. In retaliation, one of the conquerers of Leipzig moves out and mows the archers down like so much wheat, then returns to Leipzig. Resistance ends in Leipzig and a barracks is purchased. A preliminary assault on Berlin destroys 2 defenders while reinforcements land at Heidelberg. The latter completes the barracks and starts a temple. The conquerors of Corinth arrive to reinforce the siege of Knossos.

1030 AD (8): Knossos is captured, and Great Leader Fujiwara emerges during the fighting! His orders are to form an army and set sail for Germany as soon as the troops in Knossos are healed at the captured Barracks. The army will only be able to hold 2 Samurai in order to fit on the Caravel. Berlin is captured. Zedrick III cannot bring himself to destroy the Great Library, even though it is obsolete. It will be used to hold the history of the victory of the Nipponese forces against the gaijin tribes of the world! The captured barracks at Berlin will be used to heal our wounded, and the city starts production of a temple, as does Leipzig, which just completed a Barracks. The temple at Heidelberg is purchased. Samurai from Leipzig destroy 2 contingents of archers in the field near the town, then muster toward Berlin for replenishment. Attackers at Berlin move toward Hamburg. Samurai land near Konigsberg on the mountain and prepare to assault the city. They shall know vengeance for the destruction of the Mountain Samurai!

1040 AD (9): More Samurai reinforcements arrive in Heidelberg. Resistance in Berlin is ended! Our Samurai move in towards Hamburg and Frankfurt. 6 Samurai attack Konigsberg from the slopes of the mountain and raze it. There is a gaijin Caravel patrolling the waters near Heidelberg -- looks like the Germans have discovered Astronomy. Zedrick III does not bother to check what advances they have made recently, as they are soon to be destroyed anyway.

1050 AD (10): The German Caravel is sunk, after sinking one of ours (which was empty.) Hamburg is assaulted from the slopes of a nearby mountain and razed. Wounded troops withdraw toward Berlin, while fresh troops press on toward Munich. This includes the conquerors of Konigberg, and Fujiwara's army also lands near Munich. Several Samurai take up positions in the hills above Frankfurt in preparation for an assault on that city.

At this point, Zedrick III feels his work as Shogun is done. He has left the army in a situation where it impossible that it should fail in destroying the gaijin. Instead, in his old age, he begins to work with the Senate, weeding out those that are corrupt or ineffectual, and replacing them with intelligent and decisive men, many Samurai among them. For he knows that the people will require strong leadership in times of peace as well as in times of war, and that in times of peace the people do not wish to be led by the Shogun. Nevertheless, the office of Shogun is maintained, for there will ever be a need for vigilance, and that will be the hallmark of the position of Shogun from this point onwards...

We are literally one turn away from a conquest victory, no real need for anyone to actually take a formal "got it/play it/post it" turn over the sacking of those last two German towns. Just download that file, kill the germans, and add the game to your hall of fame. And give yourselves a pat on the back for an amazingly smooth and early victory for such a rocky start.

So, when's RBD3 going to begin?

Well done guys :)

Any chance for a Civ2 succession game? No, didn't think so.

*Goes back to lurking*

He shoots.... he scores!!! Japan routes the opposition, as was
written in the cards the day the Egyptians dared attack the sacred valley.

Sirian, would you do the honor of a paragraph or two describing the victory/game wrap up? :cool:

rbd3? Definitely! Good job with this one Zed. Suggestions from folks? Carbon or Jaffa, whoever feels themself a strong starter, should take a turn with setting up the game parameters (with input would be nice). I have yet to play a game where naval opertations dominated, or where there 21st century war with all those fancy late units -- something to foster one of those would work well for me. (England in a large watery archipelago, or Germans on a large or huge map with fewer than max opponents, for example) The victory is less than one full round of turns away, so I'll be looking for a '4' game soon as well. :)
See also the rbd forum for some game questions/thoughts.

Charis

All bear witness to the Truth of the Verses, that the Revelations of the Three Prophets -- Siriansan, Carbonsama, and Silversan -- have come to pass. The Great Mother holds the whole of the earth in Her hand, and her chosen people shall forever keep the Covenent of the Sacred Valley: to work the earth with our hands, to spread out and fill every plot of land with our sons and daughters, who shall bring glory to Her name.

Learn the Great History, of the Before Time, when gaijen walked the earth and stood in opposition to us, until their final defeat in 1070AD with a "rating" of 5205, for yea these are not myths, but the records of what befell our people. Read all about the Sacred Valley and our Covenant with the Mother, about the Father of our People, who set us on the path of Truth; about the Egyptian Betrayal at Osaka, and the bravery of the Liberator, who brought balance to our ways and Revealed that we must become dominant warriors as well as industrious workers and devout worshippers; about the heroic victories of Charisgawa and Tojo, the great projects of our people -- the Pyramids, the Forbidden Palace, the Oracle of Thebes, the Great Wall of the Sacred Valley, the Pristine Chapel, Charisan's Observatory, the Grand Music Cathedral, and the Hanging Gardens of Silversan's Dojo -- about Zed the Trainer, Dot-Sun visionary Tamarin, and Ion the Organizer. Read the Verses and learn the Truth. Never lose sight of what the ancients have done for us, as we embark now, in the year 1455AD, into the reaches of deep space, in search of new worlds where we of Nippon might work the land, train in martial arts, and honor the beauty of the Mother's whole creation.

:queen: :jesus: :ninja: :ninja: :ninja:

Here's a screen that cracked me up (taken after I sacked the last German town)

And as for what we should do for RBD3...how about a large/huge sparse archipelago map with only six or so opponents? 3 billion year old earth, cold and arid climate, RAGING barbarians, making things as difficult to find the other civs as possible. We should probably play as the English, since they get a leg up on Map-making.

This crowd seems to have Monarch in the bag, do we dare try for a win on Emperor?

I'd go for that (cold/arid/3billion/fewer players/raging barbs/monarch or emperor), though I'd prefer standard (or at most large) to huge, as my comp is fairly slow and I tend to prefer smaller games. I'd also like to keep a turn length of 10 turns.

We might want to pick a different Civ than England if we're playing England in Sirian's Infantry game. Charis's preference for naval engagements should be satisfied in that game (low land mass archipelago), but perhaps not his desire to play with modern ground forces other than infantry. We don't have to pick archipelago/low land mass for this game... perhaps pick some Scientific civ and go for late industrial/modern era Domination or Space Race? Germans get Panzers, but the militaristic bonus will probably not be terribly useful as we won't be competing for land so much early on. Regardless of what Civ we pick, we'll have to pay attention to what wonders we build as well so as not to trigger a Golden Age too soon. (see http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3infocenter.shtml#wonders and http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3infocenter.shtml#golden ages ) Russians are a possibility, being expansionist as well as scientific, on a map with lots of empty space... could get out of the ancient era quite quickly. :)

BTW, the Verse of Zedrick III is complete above

Emperor is a rough road. On paper, it doesn't look much harder, but it's a real step up from Monarch. There's not much room for error in the first 100 turns. After that, depends on your situation. On Emperor (and deity), the AI's start with more free units, and can start in on settler building right away, while the player, forced to cope with more unhappiness, MUST build some military. The AI's with their extra units can explore more quickly, will grab the goody huts and smash more barbarians, and jump out in front much stronger. They are more aggressive with wonders, while the player is more tied up than lower difficulty just trying to grab a stake in the land before its all grabbed. The most brutal thing of all is more intense corruption, which alone shaves a large margin off the player's economic potential. Even a good game, unless you are blessed with paradisial lands, will see you playing catch up for a long long time, unless by fortune and daring, you manage to become the middle man brokering maps and tech back and forth between two pockets of civs. All this with the AI more aggressive in attacking cities with resources.

My fast starts on Monarch are what passes for "just getting by" on Emperor -- lots of fun, but some of my gambits do fail, and some games where I've failed, I've either had to scrap (if playing ironman), or to back up a couple of turns and experiment with a different game plan (if just practicing/experimenting).

Now on Deity, the AI's will make your head spin with their expansion rate. Emperor's not quite that bad, but a succession game with its fragmentation of styles, tendencies, diversity, adds some difficulty in itself. I'd be up for playing it -- it might be LOADS of fun -- but nobody should go in with the illusion that we've mopped up Monarch and are ready to lay waste to Emperor. We might be playing with a siege mentality from start to finish.

I have plenty of ideas for what might be fun for future RBD succession games, but I suggested most of the circumstances for the India game and will sit back awhile and see what others come up with, unless there is a dearth of fun things to try.


- Sirian

Not having played on Emperor yet, I'll have to take your word about the discontinuity between that and Monarch. Your arguments certainly seem reasonable. The difficulty we choose might well affect our choice of Civ, as different attributes should be valued differently based on what we expect both the AI empires and the Barbarians to be capable of.
I think we're pretty confident that as a group we can defeat the AI on Monarch most of the time. So, the question is, do we want a challenge on Emperor, with a risk that we may not be able to overcome it, or a fun game with some challenging moments but mostly straightforward play on Monarch?

A succession game may have a variety of styles which may slow things down somewhat, but it also makes it less likely that inattention or bad judgement in one area of the game will become a long term problem. I guess it's a sort of averaging effect, so we will perform less well than the single best player among us, but if all of us are capable of handling Monarch, then we oughtn't to lose too much ground based on that. Plus, it will help the weaker players to play in a challenging environment with the assistance and advice of stronger players. Emperor may be more than we can collectively chew, but that doesn't mean we can't try, and if we get our butts handed to us, we'll be that much better for lessons learned next time we make the attempt.

I'm comfortable with either Monarch or Emperor, whatever people want to play...

I'd just like to say congratulations to you guys, I've been following this game (and the India game) with much interest. I've only just recently gotten into Civ3 (I got a copy for christmas), having only played Civ 1 years ago.

These succession games are great, Although I'll be pretty useless at joining them yet (I can't even win on Warlord level :( ). Still, I'll be following them with interest.

One thing I do when I play as the Japanese (which I do all the time; I love the samurai), is rename foreign cities into the Japanese style. It's a pointless thing to do, but it adds some amusement to the game for me. I suppose if you were familiar enough with the language of any other civilisation you could do it there too (I only know Japanese though). Just a thought for future Japanese succession games.

I had no time to check this thread for 24h ... and when I come back the war is already over. :king:

I would have really liked to play around a little more with those samurai (more than build one and move him to Whale ;) ) ... but anyway ... good game ... and I learned a lot :)

Of course It was great fun too :D

Gratulations to all :goodjob:

The game was really won in Zed's first turn: Rushing the Pyramids with Tojo and producing Hirohito just before capturing Thebes. After that it was no longer a question of if we would win, but how long it would take us and in what form that win would come.

Well, maybe you DID miss out on a whole lot. :crazyeyes My apologies. There's talk of RBD 3 starting soon, maybe you should join that one. I believe it's a builder game, it might take us till the year 1500 AD just to have all the land settled. :eek:

Well, it was a good game, even if I never got to see any combat :)

If RBD3 is going to be Sirians massive building game, and RBD1 is likely finishing soon, what's on for RBD4? Does Carbon want to start off his large archipelago idea (I would suggest also disabling everything except the military victories -- domination/conquest -- so it doesn't just become a sit-back-and-wait-for-UN-or-spaceship-or-20K-city game).

Or, for the benefit of those who don't like dealing with huge armies of unautomated workers ;) , something like a five-city-challenge game, with cultural and diplomatic victories disabled?

--
Jaffa

You two who missed out on the late combat action could open up one of the saves and play around with it, for practice, kicks, and the joys of those wav files attached to samurai activity. :)

HAI! :ninja:

Well, I guess we have several games to start in the near future:

- Sirian's infantry game: England, standard 80% water archipelago, can't use fast land attackers. Still open for joining if anyone's interested, but expected to close soon.

- RBD3: Sirian's massive building game... I won't likely join this one since the turn length will balloon much larger than I'd be interested in.

- RBD4: Go ahead and start this thread up CC. Pick whatever parameters seem reasonable to you, I don't think anyone will object! Just about everyone's had a chance to comment on this by now. :) Please post your reasoning for choice of civ & comments on strategy if you have any. We can plan to start when RBD1 finishes up, unless people want to start earlier.

- RBD5: A 5 city challenge works for me, I like short turns (hence why I usually prefer smaller maps. :) ) We could potentially even start it soon as well since any given turn might not occupy enough time to conflict with other games. Jaffa, do you want to start this one up now, or collect more input and wait until later?

I've done the first turn for the game described below, and would like input here on if it should be:
- a private game (ie no interest ;)
- RBD3? (I did use the game options for size and arid and 3 billion that others was suggested for this)
- rbd4? (something in ADDITION to CC's game and Sirian's building game. His Infantry game is independent and "on" afaik)
- Slots will be open first to those here who show interest, and if short, opened up for other CF fans (hence the post in this thread, not making a new thread quite yet)
-------

Artillery. BOOM? I've not been using that element effectively at all.
So what to do when I'm lousy at something? Force myself to use it :)
I've been wanting to do this since seeing how some other folks were using
artillery to great effect in a succsion game, but Sirian's "Infantry" game
prompted some of the specifics of the 'extra rules' here. (The game play is envisioned as quite different, I'm certainly not trying to copy it or horn in on it, I just want to have an artillery focus game where Musketeers play a key role ;)

Basic premise: No city may be taken without the direct support of artillery.

Civilization? What is needed for the catapult? Alphabet and Masonry to reach
Mathematics. Who starts with those? Commercial industrious. Ah, the French.
Some would find it appropriate that the French play a game in which they are
scared for their infantry to fight without first have their foes softened up,
but I leave such judgements to the reader. The workers extra speed will help
make roads, which are required to move artillery in rough terrain.

French? Well there's a UU I've never used, even in my two French games! This
must be corrected too. Simple: for Cannons and later, a Musketeer is required
to operate and coordinate fire! Plus what better companion for these vulnerable
units than these Musketeers. While we're at it, might as well let Paratroopers
(the other worthless unit) have a special role.

Game parameters: Continents, large land mass, random climate.
Size: Large, Number of Opponents: only 7 (not max 11). Would be good
to get to Muskets before all the fighting was over.
Opponents: Random, except the Germans and Russians will be there.
Difficulty: Monarch sounds about right.
Victory conditions: Diplomacy, Cultural, Conquest. (No space or domination)

Turns: 40-30-25-20-15 then 10 for each turn. #players: 5 would be good, +/- ok.
(These long turns in first round due to size of map, and the first turn in
particular to found 3 musketeer cities. We may need to adjust those.)

Normal rules:
- No reload
- No automation of workers
- Use 'Save', not 'Autosave' to recover from crash until Autosave bug is fixed

Extra rules:
- No city may be attacked on any round until artillery support has fired on
the town (catapult, cannon, artillery, radar artillery, or any bombardment)
- The only exception is that Paratroopers do not require artillery support.
- Paratroopers are suggested to be made and used, and should pillage key supply
lines and special resources as a key part of their mission.
- Cities need artillery garrisons. For a captured city, one artillery unit must
remain as garrison. For a built city, an artillery unit should be produced or
imported (AFTER that city builds/gets an infantry defender)
- For cannon, artillery, radar art, a Musketman is required in the same square
to operate the equipment. (This goes for city garrison as well)
- Note that a Marine attacking a city after naval bombardment is another
option opened up nicely ;P

A side effect of these rules is that we won't get to crush the AI in massive
blitzreigs due to the artillery movement speed (further making paratrooper
deployment behind enemy lines more useful).

BTW, I think the patch changed the paratrooper range to 6, up from 4. Nice?

Charis

PS I'm hoping there's interest, but this is as much a training exercise for me
in effective use of artillery as anything else, so I will proceed even with
a small number of players. For those already using artillery routinely in
your campaigns, there won't be much change except elimination of blitzs.

PPS I wonder if Helicopters can carry artillery? (Airlift)

Ack! More good ideas popping out of the woodwork than you can shake a stick at! RBD6 anyone? :)

Charis, the artillery game sounds like something I'd be interested in joining.

Do cruise missiles count as artillery? Who's used them? They're definitely bombardment, but they're single-use, and they can kill defenders. Also I discovered I couldn't put them on my transport ships, so is there any way to get them off the landmass they're built on? Can they be airlifted?

If Carbon wants to start an archipelago game thread, I think I'll hold off on the 5CC unless there's overwhelming immediate interest :)

--
Jaffa

Heck, I knew it was an error to start games with those variant scums :p ... too many good ideas :)

I would like to sign up for the artillery game please :rocket2: