Versions
The only versions currently acceptable are:

1.52 New Random Seed on Reload must be disabled (unchecked). No Cheat Mode must be enabled (checked). No mods are to be used with this patch.
Games started under any patch must be finished in said patch.
When future patches are released, the HOF staff must review them before deeming them legal for HOF submissions and play.

Game Type
Single Player only.

Opponents
You may select who your opponents are. The selection must not include any leader multiple times, nor can you choose an AI leader identical to the one you're playing. You must have at least the following number of opponents per mapsize: (will be the same for any game type)

Duel: 1
Tiny: 2
Small: 3
Standard: 4
Large: 5
Huge: 6


Difficulty
Any difficulty may be used.

Map Settings
Any map type may be used. Each map may only be played through once. Each map must be submitted from the turn after your first victory condition.

Starting Era
Any starting era may be used.

Speed
Any game speed may be used.

Options

No City Razing - Any
No City Flipping From Culture - Must not be checked
City Flipping after Conquest - Any
No Barbarians - Any
Raging Barbarians - Any
Aggressive AI - Any
Random Personalities - Any
No Technology Trading - Must not be checked
Permanent Alliances - Any
Always War - Any
Always Peace - Must not be checked
One-City Challenge - Any
Permanent War or Peace - Must not be checked
New Random Seed on Reload (1.52 only) - Must not be checked
No Cheating (1.52 only) - Must be checked


Team Play
Team play is not allowed. The assignment of players to teams must be left as default. For those that are not sure that means the red-ringed settings in the following screenshot:
http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/images/team.jpg


Victory Conditions
All victory conditions must be enabled.

Reloading
You may not reload a save file to play parts of the game again. You may only load a save file to start a new play session. We recommend that you aim to play sessions of at least one hour in duration.

You may not play the game through again with the starting save. You must submit your first attempt at the game, otherwise you are replaying with knowledge of the map.

Map Generation
Only random maps may be used that you have generated yourself. You may not share maps with other players. You may not share maps with other players. You may only use each map once. GOTM maps are not acceptable.

World Builder
The World Builder must not be used.

Post-victory Submission
You may only submit from the turn after your first achieved victory condition. You may not achieve a victory condition, continue playing and then submit.

XML/Python scripts
The only mod you may use is this. (http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/mod.php)

Questions:

What is the Hall of Fame?
Players of any version of Civilization are familiar with their own personal Hall of Fame, a single screen serving as a testimonial to their own individual accomplishments. And yet, while players can view with delight and satisfaction their own monuments, marveling at the games they have filled it with, die-hard enthusiasts can eventually find their own HOF unfullfilling. Because, while there are stories and glories in abundance in personal Halls of Fame, those screens are often only enjoyed and seen by those that fill them.
At it's most basic level the CFC HOF just takes that simple screen to a new level. It is, quite simply, a database, an elite level of tables of the best games. Not the best games of a single player, but of all CFCr's that care to participate. It's an oppurtunity for humans to play standard stand-alone games, and yet submit them into an environment where they compete with other humans at the same time.

At the community level, the CFC HOF exists to serve the players who compete in it. As games are submitted, verified and posted on the tables, it will become clear who is the best. Some players will enter the HOF already the best. Others will compete and become the best. What can be safely said is that most everyone will become better players for simply having competed. Here in the Hall of Fame are superior games to study from, experienced and talented players putting their wisdom and strategies up for all to read and know, and in the forum, posters gracious enough to advise on matters and answer questions.

And that's why our doors are open to all. Certainly, the best shall be saluted. But it's certain that anyone who enters the Hall of Fame will eventually find themselves better prepared to defeat those pesky AI.

How do I submit a game?
First you need to register if you haven't done so already. Just go to the Log In/Submit page (http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/user_login.php) and follow the instructions down the bottom of the page next to the "Register" button.

A number of extra radio-buttons will appear over the left hand side once you have logged in, including one that will allow you to submit a game (http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/user_submit.php) (note that this link won't work unless you are logged in).

I've submitted a game but it hasn't appeared in the tables. What's going on?
There are a number of steps that occur before submitted games appear. The current state of a submitted game is shown on the My Submissions (http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/user_list.php) page (note that this link won't work unless you are logged in). The Status has the following meaning:
Not Checked-This is the initial state after submitting. The submission will stay in this state until the HOF staff have validated the information extracted from the files and that the submission meets the HOF rules.
Accepted-This is the state of a submission after the HOF staff have accepted the game. The submission will not appear in the main tables until it has been published.
Excluded-This is the state of a submission after the HOF staff have rejected the game. The HOF staff will contact you via email to let you know why the submission was rejected.
Published-The HOF staff will publish all of the games that have been Accepted at regular intervals. For Civ 3 this interval is fortnightly. For the beta of Civ 4 this may be more often initially. Once a submission has been published it will appear in the table only if it qualifies for the top 10 of the relevant table.


Beta? What's that all about anyway?
The Permanent Hall of Fame will take time to construct. Everything from legal rules and settings to final table layout as well as "the Challenge" have to be decided. We didn't want to wait to start competition though. As a matter of fact, running a Beta HOF is largely essential in determining the permanent.

Will my Beta games make it to the permanent HOF tables?
Impossible to say at this point.

Why are there so few tables and no Quartermasters etc like in the Civ3 HOF?
We don't know yet what kinds of tables we'll be doing for the permanent HOF (staff nickname: Quatro), so the Beta is starting off short, sweet and to the point. Rest assured though that the permanent Hall of Fame will have a plethora of slots and tables. The Quartermaster's Challenge will have a IV counterpart, although it's not likely to be as small an event.

Options

No City Flipping From Culture - Must be off
City Flipping after Conquest - Must be off



Why are the city flips off?
Any reasoning behind this (bug/exploit)?
Seems kind of strange to turn off an entire feature of the game... :confused:

Why are the city flips off?
Any reasoning behind this (bug/exploit)?
Seems kind of strange to turn off an entire feature of the game... :confused:
Those are options to turn them OFF. They are ON by default (i.e. unchecked). I think he means don't check them.

Denniz is right, those options should be ON. I've edited the first post.

How about using the words "checked" and "unchecked" to avoid confusion?

Eh? No city flipping from culture should be off if you want city flips to happen...

Eh? No city flipping from culture should be off if you want city flips to happen...

right. Now I am totally confused.... :(

Maybe we should go for Denniz's idea (checked vs. unchecked)?

right. Now I am totally confused.... :(
Sorry about that.

I've changed to Denniz' terminology. Is it clear now?

Sorry about that.

I've changed to Denniz' terminology. Is it clear now?

Yes,


BUT:


No City Flipping From Culture - Unchecked
City Flipping after Conquest - Unchecked

The way I read this is that cities can flip due to culture (first line),
but cities can not flip back to the previous owner after conquest (second line).

I think it should read "checked" on the second line
(but the fact that I've played a grand total of two games so far, does indicate that I am not as experienced with Civ4 as I am with Civ3, which may indicate that I do not know as much as I'd like about the game set-up screen)

The second option is off by default, as it should be IMO. It was just an extremely annoying feature in civ3. Although, in Civ4 you don't lose all your units if the city flips, so it wouldn't be quite as annoying. Since it defaults to off I don't think the HoF should force it on people, but I don't see why someone couldn't turn it on if they wanted to.

The second option is off by default, as it should be IMO. It was just an extremely annoying feature in civ3. Although, in Civ4 you don't lose all your units if the city flips, so it wouldn't be quite as annoying.


I disagree. I think it's a nice feature. It's just an extension of the normal culture flipping feature. I feel it should be in.

So if I think raging barbs are a nice feature then everyone should be forced to use raging barbs in their game too? I think the default settings for the game should be the default for HoF as well. Adding restrictions to make the competition more fair is great (such as requiring a certain number of AI opponents, etc.), but forcing non-default gameplay options onto people is not good.

I'm going to change the post conquest city flip to optional. It'll be one of many things we debate during Beta before we decide on the permanent ruleset.

Just my two bits but the only option I see as an issue is Permanent Alliance. I think the permanent alliance option should be a forced unchecked. When it's on you can ally with to AI's which adds their land/population stats to your own for domination games and of course shared techs as well.

So if I think raging barbs are a nice feature then everyone should be forced to use raging barbs in their game too?

Excuse me?
I was just expressing an opinion. If you don't agree, that's just fine. I thought this topic was for discussing the settings for HoF games.

From your reaction, it looks like I was wrong though.

The rules have been updated to include a heading titled "Team Play" in the settings section.

I would like to use the Autolog (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=141164) and BlueMarble (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=140246) Mods. They are approved for use with GOTM.

++Autolog;

Good suggestions, Denniz. We'll take them under deliberation.

...Thanks, but I have to correct you. We have the beta up and running.

Another great reason for a Beta HOF. In addition to chiseling out a permanent ruleset and battletesting our systems and procedures, there's something to be said for waiting for enough patches and bugfixes. This way we can play now without damage to the permanent Hall of Fame yet to be constructed. :goodjob:@'slug/Dianthus:

I think it's good that you are thinking "Beta HOF". There are going to be Pros and Cons for not just calling the HOF, "THE (LIVE) HOF". :)

My guess is that Civ 4 will "Phase In" similar to Civ 3. Remember, we had lots of patches for Vanilla, PTW and C3C.......Over a period of Months!!

The difficulty is going to be where you draw the Line or Lines. When does Beta cease to be Beta? (viz. With Civ 3, it took Firaxis, what, 3+ years before they announced Final Patches!?)

A Possible Solution, IMHO, would be to "Restart" the HOF when a "Significant" patch is released.....As you effectively have done with v1.09. Maybe the older version(s) of HOF could be Archived & Closed?

As you know, what we've done in the past is to try and "Accommodate" multiple versions into the HOF........Maybe that will work with Civ 4, too?

I guess as time goes on certain "Exploits/Bugs" Patched Out in later versions could be banned(?)

Time will tell how differently the game will play a year from now. :)

I think if you call it the Beta HOF, you might, like with the Hurricanes' names this year, give us a Lesson in the Greek Alphabet! :groucho:

About the conquest flipping, this was simply a annohing feature, easily defeated in a number of ways. Some of those include not supressing the revolters, not stationing any units in the city, but some right outside and the raze/resettle.

This Civ3 feature never really slowed you down since culture flips were rare early, and later you had fast moving units like cavs that you wouldn't need to station nearby to quickly retake. And most times the flip would be unconnected and only magic some weak unit, like a spearman or such.

If we disallow multiple copies of the same AI leader, would everyone see it as fair to allow multiple copies of AI nations, so long as the leaders are different?

Playing against two or more Ghandi's doesn't really seem "natural", but playing against two Americas might, given that civil wars do happen (there are two China's, two Koreas, etc).

As long as they're different leaders I don't care.

I would like to use the Autolog (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=141164) and BlueMarble (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=140246) Mods.
Both are now approved, although the formal rules update will be later in the day.

The rules have been updated to disallow choosing repeated leaders and to allow 2 mods. Changes as follows:

Opponents
You may select who your opponents are. The selection must not include any leader multiple times. You must have at least the following number of opponents per mapsize: (will be the same for any game type)

Duel: 1
Tiny: 2
Small: 3
Standard: 4
Large: 5
Huge: 6



XML/Python scripts
The XML and Python scripts must not be changed from the original installation versions, with the exception of approved mods. The current list of approved mods is as follows:

Blue Marble Terrain (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=140246)
autolog v1.2 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=141164)


Let us know if there is a mod you particularly want to use and we will consider it.

Great come back of the HOF for C-IV!
I found the design of the CIV HOF greater than it was for CIV3, which I like.
And the idea of gauntlet game is great!
Good job another time!!!

LeSphinx

Will the top ten scores listed be the absolute top 10 scores submitted, or the top score of the 10 best players? In other words, can one player submit mutiple games and end up capturing a few of the top 10 spots for a given list? I ask as someone who probably won't even be in the top 10 anyway it's done, but I'm curious...

Currently with the Civ3 HOF we have a lot more tables, most of which require fast finishes rather than high scores, and only two entries are allowed per player per table. Eventually we'll have something similar for the Civ4 HOF, but for now we're starting with a small number of tables as they're going to be pretty sparse to start off with anyway. (Plus, we still haven't decided which tables we want...;))

Hum.. Can anyone tell me what's the difference between Score and Histographic victory? Am I missing something or is this a mistake?

You must have at least the following number of opponents per mapsize: (will be the same for any game type)

Duel: 1
Tiny: 2
Small: 3
Standard: 4
Large: 5
Huge: 6

Is there a max opponent limit, or is it 18 for all maps?

I just submitted a Warlord 100K huge epic game that technically violates the new rules. It was started on 5 Dec and I accidentally selected Washington twice as an AI. I wanted Victoria and made a mistake, however there were 8 AI opponents so in reality there were just 7 with Washington getting two starting locations. One of the Washingtons was the first opponent I eliminated. It was too confusing trying to figure out which one was which.

I didn't intent to play this game out to a finish but started it in the morning and it kept getting better and better as I went along. I had to stop at 1290 AD because the jerky play was driving me nuts. That was the first save that I restarted from and when I went to file all my intermidiate saves in a save file I discovered that I never saved the 4000 BC start so found it in the autosave file.

Now that I read the rules I have changed my game starts to use just 6 AI opponents and have a number of saves that give better starts than the submitted game. I have also eliminated the barbarians because if I get a very isolated start location that allows great expansion before I bump up against the AI borders I'm fighting loads of barbarians and many times they are higher in military techs than I am because I'm trying to get the 7 world religions first to control my culture late in the game. In the game just submitted one city was generating just over 1500 curture per turn by the end.

I'm planning to submit at least one more Warlord 100 K game before moving on to Noble. I now start all games with barbarians turned off but accidently started one this morning with them on and after placing a free settler unescorted discovered barbarians. If the start wasn't so good I would have abandoned it but may play it through 1000 AD just to see how much better playing without them really is. That game has 6 cities and 3 workers at 1000 BC. I have two non barbarian games saved at 1000 BC that also have 6 cities; one has 4 workers and the other 3 workers. I have a non barbarian game that only had 4 cities and 3 workers at 1000 BC but by 1 AD had 10 cities with a settler moving plus 5 workers. It also had 4 world wonders by 1 AD so the one barbarian start and the two non barbarian starts should yield a much lower score that the just submitted game.

In other words, can one player submit mutiple games and end up capturing a few of the top 10 spots for a given list? I ask as someone who probably won't even be in the top 10 anyway it's done, but I'm curious...
Don't sell yourself short. It's a new game, and with enough play and time at CFC, there's no telling how good you could get.

As Dianthus alluded to, Civ3 HOF did have a limit of 2 games per player per table. There will be a similar limit in HOF-IV implemented at some point, although the exact number has yet to be decided.

Hum.. Can anyone tell me what's the difference between Score and Histographic victory? Am I missing something or is this a mistake?
A Score victory is simply whatever the score was at the time of the game's win, regardless of what kind of win. Histographic victories are still ranked by score, but only from games that ran out of time (2050ad).

Is there a max opponent limit, or is it 18 for all maps?
Not at this time. Whatever the game will let you have.

I just submitted a Warlord 100K huge epic game that technically violates the new rules.
I cleared it. As one of the III veterans you're undoubtedly familiar with the policy there that rules changes could mean older games getting removed from the tables. As I recall, that happened a lot in early III due to things getting patched like mapsize, wonder-shield-chopping and the repeated chop-shields per tile. One of the reasons we're running a Beta is to avoid early "patch purges".

There have been several minor changes to the rules page:

In response to questions in the Gauntlet thread, I have clarified that you can only play each map you generate once and only submit it once. Also, that submission must be from the turn after the first victory condition achieved. In other words, you can't win one victory condition and keep playing to submit twice or just later.
We've opened a thread dedicated to mod approval requests. Any mod you wish to use for HOF play should be posted in that thread for our review.

any chance you can expand on the "how do I submit a game" section?

currently waiting for my password so I can't see if you need multple files - do you need the file before after the game? do you need just the replay?

any chance you can expand on the "how do I submit a game" section?

Sure, but later (bit busy right now). It obviously needs updating as we've had quite a number of submission with the wrong finish file.




currently waiting for my password

Let us know if you don't receive it and we'll sort it out.




... so I can't see if you need multple files - do you need the file before after the game? do you need just the replay?
No replay file necessary. You need the start file and the finish file, and preferably some files inbetween as well. The finish file should be saved directly after seeing the victory screens and after clicking "One... more... turn".

Let us know if you don't receive it (the password)and we'll sort it out.

No replay file necessary. You need the start file and the finish file, and preferably some files inbetween as well. The finish file should be saved directly after seeing the victory screens and after clicking "One... more... turn".

I will send you a pm about the password issue - sent one to the other guy, but haven't heard back...

regarding save games needed - I have played three recent games and have only saved the turn after the win... any chance that will be good enough for the beta scoring?

I will send you a pm about the password issue - sent one to the other guy, but haven't heard back...

OK, I've replied, both via PM and email...




regarding save games needed - I have played three recent games and have only saved the turn after the win... any chance that will be good enough for the beta scoring?
There's a good chance, yes. We're been more lenient during beta than we will be once the HOF proper starts. Don't make a habit of it though! :)

I will send you a pm about the password issue - sent one to the other guy, but haven't heard back...
Sorry about that Craterus! What little computer time I had yesterday was spent installing a new motherboard and video card to see if I could make Civ4 run better.

Sorry about that Craterus! What little computer time I had yesterday was spent installing a new motherboard and video card to see if I could make Civ4 run better.

absolutely no problem - just submitted - checked the submissions and really like the little symbols and stuff - For my games, I used the play game now function with a small/quick/pangea map

Is there ANY chance you guys will convert your HOF system to a mod for the game's HOF? (please?)


ps - found some of the older files in my delete folder - i did put one 3950bc file in as the start file...

Is there ANY chance you guys will convert your HOF system to a mod for the game's HOF? (please?)
I'm not entirely sure what you're asking here.:confused:

ps - found some of the older files in my delete folder - i did put one 3950bc file in as the start file...
That should be okay.:)

I'm not entirely sure what you're asking here.:confused:


The HOF that comes with the game is a horrible afterthought... a cool hall of fame with some of the graphics you use (along with an adjusted scoring system - that you work out as you gather more data) would be very cool.

There's an entire modding community out there that might could help you with that. We're quite focused on this Hall of Fame itself.

Can we set an opponent ruler to the same one as ours? It isn't stated in the rules that we can't. I haven't been but I want to try someone knew to play with, who is also my favorite opponent right now.

For the defintive HOF, I'd suggest requiring a default for the 'no barbarians' option (either on or off). Right now you pretty much have to turn it on to get the best possible score.

Can we set an opponent ruler to the same one as ours? It isn't stated in the rules that we can't. I haven't been but I want to try someone knew to play with, who is also my favorite opponent right now.
No. Each leader (AI or otherwise) must be unique.

For the defintive HOF, I'd suggest requiring a default for the 'no barbarians' option (either on or off). Right now you pretty much have to turn it on to get the best possible score.
It'll be interesting to see how things develop. In III, some players found barbs on useful, others didn't. IV isn't III, but I suspect the pattern will repeat.

Can we set an opponent ruler to the same one as ours? It isn't stated in the rules that we can't. I haven't been but I want to try someone knew to play with, who is also my favorite opponent right now.
Currently the rules are a little ambiguous about that, but the intention of the "no repeated leaders" bit is that it should include your leader as well as the opponent leaders. So, the short answer is "no" :).

X post with superslug. Luckily we gave the same answer ;)

It'll be interesting to see how things develop. In III, some players found barbs on useful, others didn't. IV isn't III, but I suspect the pattern will repeat.

I doubt it. In civ3 even with barbs on you could send settlers out unescorted. Also turning barbs off removed all goody huts from the map. In civ4 the goody huts stick around. I guess you don't want to take my word for it, but turning the barbs off in civ4 is completely unbalancing. It's blatantly obvious as soon as you try it out.

I guess you don't want to take my word for it, but turning the barbs off in civ4 is completely unbalancing.
It's not that I don't take your word for it, it's just that I take EVERY player's opinions into consideration.;)

...but turning the barbs off in civ4 is completely unbalancing. It's blatantly obvious as soon as you try it out.My understanding is that in 4GOTM01, Barbarians are turned OFF! :confused:
(The Only option box checked.)

Aeson, who I have the highest regard for, was involved (primarily?) in creating the 4GOTM01 start position/game parameters.

So, I don't think the "Barbarians Issue" is that clear cut. :)

Maybe it *is* clearcut and Aeson was just being nice and giving the GOTM crowd an easy game ;).

The barbarians were on for GOTM1. It's just another case of people getting confused by the "not checked"= barbarians are on.

I haven't played the 4GOTM01 yet but this is a copy from Scope of the Game:
(http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/index.php?month=40001)

"Civilization: Rome - Unique Unit: Praetorian
Leader: Caesar - Expansionist, Organised
Difficulty: Noble
Map size: Standard
Landmass: Continents
Climate<: Temperate
Water level: Medium
Era: Ancient
Speed: Normal
Barbarians: None
Rivals: 6
Victory conditions: All enabled
Submissions due by January 1, 2006."

Is this a "Typo" then? :confused: :confused:

Looks like it. I checked the start files and the game options are set to default, which means No Barbarians is unchecked, meaning they are on!

It must be. I can assure you there were barbarians and not ones that were popped from a hut. There were even barbarian cities founded.

I want to know if we can use a map generated by a custom choice in the HOF CIV4 ?
(by selecting the number of continent in a continent map for exemple)

LeSphinx

@Dianthus & Shillen: Thanks for the feedback. :thanx:

I was playing a "Practice" Game with No Barbs to simulate GOTM......So, I REALLY appreciate y'all setting the Record Straight! :)

You could have just the huts in Civ3, sedentary or something gave you the huts but not active barbs.
I don't think its that unbalancing, I find them boring and annoying so only play with them if I have some particular goal in mind. Since they have no overriding goal they are just a random nuisance.


I would like to know if there is any thoughts about map exclusions? Some of the map generators are really a departure from Civ3 and HOF random maps. I'm talking mainly about the maps designed for multiplayer where resources are controlled differently to deal with human vs human interaction.

Barbarians couldn't capture your cities in civ3, though. I think barbarians off changes the entire way you play civ4. Turning barbarians off in civ3 changes nothing about how you play. You left your cities undefended even with barbs on .

I want to know if we can use a map generated by a custom choice in the HOF CIV4 ?
(by selecting the number of continent in a continent map for exemple)
That's legal for Beta for now.

I would like to know if there is any thoughts about map exclusions? Some of the map generators are really a departure from Civ3 and HOF random maps. I'm talking mainly about the maps designed for multiplayer where resources are controlled differently to deal with human vs human interaction.
You're right about the map generators being different. In III, we could live with anything the program could whip up, but IV obviously has settings and maybe even sizes that just don't make sense for the Hall of Fame. It'll take time, perhaps the whole Beta, to figure out exactly where the official lines will be drawn. When we roll out the permanent Quatro, available map options will decrease, and probably the approved mod list as well.

I have a suggestion for the Hall of Fame/Gauntlet page:

Please make it clearer to everyone that both an initial game file and a final game file will be required when the time comes for submitting a game. As it stands at the moment this requirement for the start file file is only made known to the user when s/he logs in to submit a game.

I very nearly fell foul of this myself because I read the rules, went off and spent 12+ hours on a game, then went to submit it. It was only then that I realised I had to sign up again to use my CFC username in the HoF (no problem with that) after which I was able to get to the submission screen. It was only when I got to this point that I found out a start file was needed and I truly thought I was screwed because I hadn't saved one! :rolleyes: As it happens, I had not played any other game in the interim and found a starting file in the autosave folder - I'm pretty sure I didn't save the first turn so presume this is something the game does for you? Anyway, I was lucky, others may not be if they start any other games before squirreling away their start file, so please... make this information known up front on the website (where the game rules are explained or at the least in the FAQ), it's sure to save quite a few less savvy people like myself some grief!

Thanks!

I'm sorry you went through that Velvet. I will be making a definite attempt to have the next Gauntlet laid out much more clearly.

Because of the confusion, we have been accepting games without the start files.

The rules have been updated with one change: Game of the Month maps are not acceptable submissions.

As all victory types must be on, It is not possible to achieve conquest victory with this rules.

Domination vistroy will be achieved before conquest vistory.

Would you mind modfying that rule to "domination victory " can be turned off, because with conquest victory you will be able to get more points.

Which score will count? the normalised score or your final score?

Would you mind modfying that rule to "domination victory " can be turned off, because with conquest victory you will be able to get more points.
No, domination has to be on. The listed victory conditions must be enabled for any HOF game, regardless of the target victory.

And avoiding domination en route to conquest is more than doable. Just start burning cities...

Which score will count? the normalised score or your final score?
Currently we only have a single list sorted simply by final scores. Eventually we'll have Fastest Finish tables sorted by win date.

Currently we only have a single list sorted simply by final scores. Eventually we'll have Fastest Finish tables sorted by win date.

So I have to finish as soon as possbile to be in HOF?
And other possibility to have an high score / not normalised score.

For example I posted a gam in which I have score of araound 4K but at the end I got Highest rank and normalised score arounf 65K.

So 65K doesn't matters only 4K, bacause in that case I will have to follow a differet strategy (instead of finishing ASAP play until 2050AD

Thank you for your answer in advance!

Is there a way to validate the map/game settings? You know...like in the Civ3 HOF, you can upload your 4000BC save for validation. Are you guys planning to implement that feature for Civ4 HOF too?

@Bozso: Historically, there are HOF tables for High Scores too! In fact, the "Highest Scores Tables" have been the most-difficult to "top" in Civ 3 because, generally speaking, you had to "Expand, Conquer, Milk" all the way out to 2050AD. ;)

(Coincidentally, the Poster above me (Moonsinger), she would have to be considered one of CFC's Best HOF High-Score Players!)

What's always been nice about the HOF, IMHO, is that you DON'T have to rush to finish a game.......spend as long as you like.....MONTHS even!! :)

@Moonsinger: Good to see you "Thinking Civ 4"! :goodjob:

So I have to finish as soon as possbile to be in HOF?
And other possibility to have an high score / not normalised score.

Do you mean in "real" time? Or in game date? For the HOF "real" time doesn't matter (as Eman said!), feel free to take as long as you like on a game. Game date *is* important though as the earlier the date the better you will do on a fast finish table (when we have them), and the higher finish bonus you will get.



For example I posted a gam in which I have score of araound 4K but at the end I got Highest rank and normalised score arounf 65K.

So 65K doesn't matters only 4K, bacause in that case I will have to follow a differet strategy (instead of finishing ASAP play until 2050AD

It's the 65K that matters, not the 4K.



Is there a way to validate the map/game settings? You know...like in the Civ3 HOF, you can upload your 4000BC save for validation. Are you guys planning to implement that feature for Civ4 HOF too?
There isn't a way, yet. Eventually, when I find time ;).

Ok, I have another question: Would patch 1.52 be accepted? Also, would Marathon game speed be allowed?

Ok, I have another question: Would patch 1.52 be accepted? Also, would Marathon game speed be allowed?
superslug posted about 1.52 in this thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=149306) just a little after you asked :). Anyway, I've update the rules to allow 1.52 to be used, and added requirements for the new settings:

Versions
The only versions currently acceptable are:

1.09
1.52

At some point we will stop allowing 1.09, so it is suggested you start using 1.52 as soon as possible. Games started under any patch must be finished in said patch.

When future patches are released, the HOF staff must review them before deeming them legal for HOF submissions and play.

Options
...
New Random Seed on Reload (1.52 only) - Must not be checked
No Cheating (1.52 only) - Must be checked


Marathon is allowed, still covered by the "Any game speed may be used."

Not sure if this has been mentioned previously but it seems new to me. In the game menu there is a new command Regenerate Map. It only seems valid for the first few turns, but I've been able to settle and scout a small area and still use it. It seems to just make a new map based on your settings (ala Custom Game) and start you anew as if you went thru the process of generating a game again.

Anyway, if this is doing what I think then this is perfect for HOF players.

Not sure if this has been mentioned previously but it seems new to me. In the game menu there is a new command Regenerate Map. It only seems valid for the first few turns, but I've been able to settle and scout a small area and still use it. It seems to just make a new map based on your settings (ala Custom Game) and start you anew as if you went thru the process of generating a game again.

Anyway, if this is doing what I think then this is perfect for HOF players.
I have used this a few times since it came out. It is definately easier than going back to the menu. :thumbsup: One thing I noticed though, Regenerate Map does not create an autosave for the new 4000BC map. :( You have to remember to save the new map if you are going for an HoF submission.

I really like reviewing the "Player Log" in the HoF. I have learned a lot from them. Thanks for posting them.:goodjob: I just noticed that one of my game (entry #212) doesn't have any combat logs. Did I forgot to turn something on/off? Since a lot of my troops had disappeared in that game, I'm curious on what the log would say...

Also, on the HOF, there is a "Time" victory condition. Currently, it has no entry...what exactly is the "Time" condition?

I really like reviewing the "Player Log" in the HoF. I have learned a lot from them. Thanks for posting them.:goodjob: I just noticed that one of my game (entry #212) doesn't have any combat logs. Did I forgot to turn something on/off? Since a lot of my troops had disappeared in that game, I'm curious on what the log would say...

Also, on the HOF, there is a "Time" victory condition. Currently, it has no entry...what exactly is the "Time" condition?

Wow I never even noticed the Player Log. That's really awesome. :goodjob:

The time victory condition is when you're leading in score at 2050AD and no other victory condition has been met.

Also, on the HOF, there is a "Time" victory condition. Currently, it has no entry...what exactly is the "Time" condition?
It's just the equivalent of III's Histographic HOF tables. IIRC, we went with "Time" instead for IV because IV calls it Time instead of Histographic.

EDIT: Basically what Shillen said.

I just noticed that one of my game (entry #212) doesn't have any combat logs. Did I forgot to turn something on/off?
I think I've seen this mentioned in the Quick Answers thread, but can't remember what the answer was :blush:. Interestingly your other games have got combat logs, just not the most recent one, so I guess you've changed an option...

I think I've seen this mentioned in the Quick Answers thread, but can't remember what the answer was :blush:. Interestingly your other games have got combat logs, just not the most recent one, so I guess you've changed an option...

As far as I know, I didn't change any option. However, something unexpected did happen to me in that game....Shortly after I let the Spanish live with the last city, my balance suddenly ended up in negative (basically, I expanded too fast and ran out of money). Guess what happen next? All of my units got disbanded by the next turn. Unlike Civ3 (which disband only 1 unit or building per turn), Civ4 disband a whole lot of them. That was news to me!

What is the difference between an immidiete file and a start/finish file.

What is the difference between an immidiete file and a start/finish file.
4000bc is the start file.
The turn after you win is the finish file.

Those two are required for submission.

Intermediate files are optional for submission, usually 1000bc, 10ad and 1000ad.

Just noticed there's also a histogram option which allows you to compare your own entry to others graphically. Wow!

Hello!

Would you tell me how often do you update HOF as I posted several games 2day ago but I am still not able to see them.

Hello!

Would you tell me how often do you update HOF as I posted several games 2day ago but I am still not able to see them.
Welcome to the Hall of Fame, Bozso! :band:

Civ 4 Hall of Fame is updated twice a month. The next update should be around the 10th.

If you want to check the status of your submitted games, Login to the HoF and click on "My Submissions".

The Rules have been updated, some information is repeated from other sections for emphasis, but there is one change, as all mods are now banned from Hall of Fame play:

Versions
The only versions currently acceptable are:

1.09 but only until January 9th! Games started before then should be done under 1.52.
1.52 New Random Seed on Reload must be disabled (unchecked). No Cheat Mode must be enabled (checked). No mods are to be used with this patch.
Games started under any patch must be finished in said patch.
When future patches are released, the HOF staff must review them before deeming them legal for HOF submissions and play.


MODS
All mods are now banned for Hall of Fame play. An HOF megamod with approved versions of some mods is now in development, release date uncertain. Until then, 1.52 games should be played without mods, but with No Cheat Mode.

Hopefully Firaxis will give more thought to their current heavy handed approach to security with an upcoming patch and then you don't have to draw such a overbearing line.

Hopefully Firaxis will give more thought to their current heavy handed approach to security with an upcoming patch and then you don't have to draw such a overbearing line.
Banning mods was a tough call and I only did it because it's temporary. We'll get something together where we can authorize select mods and still have the desired security. I really do believe the best of both worlds is possible here, a true win-win.

...Regenerate Map does not create an autosave for the new 4000BC map. :( You have to remember to save the new map if you are going for an HoF submission.


I'd like to revisit this topic in light of new information. Oddly, in the log each regenerate counts as a new session. Also oddly, but this oddness seems to cancel out the previous, the regeneration is iteratively based on the original map. Thus generating map 1 then regenerating will produce map 2, if you go back and load the 4000 BC save of map 1 and regenerate again you will get map 2 again!

This may also explain why a new 4000 BC file isn't saved, as the regeneration is tractable as all other random events in a given game.

So, does this change anything, could you submit the original 4000 BC. Could you remake your regenerated 4000 BC file and submit that (by regenerating the original) if you forgot the save the regenerated map the first time? Also, how will you deal with the sessions, you can tell them from reloading because the original map can be regenerated to your map, but not unless the original map is submitted. Submit both, or each regeneration?

I'd like to revisit this topic in light of new information. Oddly, in the log each regenerate counts as a new session. Also oddly, but this oddness seems to cancel out the previous, the regeneration is iteratively based on the original map. Thus generating map 1 then regenerating will produce map 2, if you go back and load the 4000 BC save of map 1 and regenerate again you will get map 2 again!

This may also explain why a new 4000 BC file isn't saved, as the regeneration is tractable as all other random events in a given game.

So, does this change anything, could you submit the original 4000 BC.Don't submit the original 4000BC file as we know it is not the same as the regenerated one.

Could you remake your regenerated 4000 BC file and submit that (by regenerating the original) if you forgot the save the regenerated map the first time?We will have to check first to see if they are identical or not. For now, I would say don't submit this either.

Also, how will you deal with the sessions, you can tell them from reloading because the original map can be regenerated to your map, but not unless the original map is submitted. Submit both, or each regeneration?We will take these kind of things into consideration during the beta. That's why it is important to remember to make the save after regenerating a map. If we see a 4000BC with a few sessions it is pretty easy to understand what's going on.

I know that doesn't help much if you forgot to save, but all we can do is handle those on a case by case basis. The next best thing would be the earliest possible save you've got for game you are submitting.

Hopefully, Firaxis will be able to patch this next time around.

Ok thanks, I submitted a few games mainly for testing purposes that are rengenerated and included the other files as well. I'm sure it mostly just confused you all but would help if you are trying to determine, without human intervention, what people may be submitting.

Some may not even notice that the 4000 BC save is not the original game until they've been burned by it at least once.

The Rules have been updated, some information is repeated from other sections for emphasis, but there is one change, as all mods are now banned from Hall of Fame play:


What dows it mean. Unfortunately I don't have Internet acces at home and I played a lot with the game during Christmas.

I used Blue marbel mod. Is that mode banned as well, AS it only contains grapichs features?

Will my Games cont to HOF?

You probably played using version 1.09 since the 1.52 came out during the Christmas break period. Mods were allowed in 1.09, so yes they will count. Beta gauntlet 1 was due in by Dec 24 though. Beta Gauntlet 2 has to be played in 1.52 I do believe.

@Bozso, exactly as Big_Ben said. Just submit the games and we'll let you know if there are any problems with them. Note that we don't count it against you if there are problems ;).

Two updates, but no real rules changes:

As mentioned in another sticky, we now have an HOF mod (http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/mod.php) with some mods incorporated into it. Questions and suggestions for future additions to that mod should go in the relevant thread.
We have a 4000bc checkpage (http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/user_startfile.php) where you can upload your start file and know that your settings are HOF legal. You'll have to be logged in to use this feature. (Please note that this is just a check, you still need to submit your 4000bc with your submissions.)

Two updates, but no real rules changes:

As mentioned in another sticky, we now have an HOF mod (http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/mod.php) with some mods incorporated into it. Questions and suggestions for future additions to that mod should go in the relevant thread.
We have a 4000bc checkpage (http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/user_startfile.php) where you can upload your start file and know that your settings are HOF legal. You'll have to be logged in to use this feature. (Please note that this is just a check, you still need to submit your 4000bc with your submissions.)



Hello I checked my BC4000 and for almost my all games I got a red "Map already used". What does it mean?
I am always playing with random maps, how can it be?

Hello I checked my BC4000 and for almost my all games I got a red "Map already used". What does it mean?
I am always playing with random maps, how can it be?
That check uses a CRC of the map to check if the map is one that has been used in another submission in the HOF database. Generally when this happens it's just that a player has accidentally submitted the same game twice, or with the start file check page they are checking a game they have already submitted.

Could you send the file to hof@civfanatics.net and I'll check it?

@Bozso: This probably has Nothing to do with your problem.......But, the other day, I couldn't submit a game to the Civ 3 HOF, nor would it check games at 4000BC. (The box where one puts the filename "emptied" and the cursor sat at the beginning of that box.)

The point of all this is that I re-booted my computer and it solved the problem!! (Who knows what the problem was. [Rhetorical]) ;)

Hello I checked my BC4000 and for almost my all games I got a red "Map already used". What does it mean?
I am always playing with random maps, how can it be?

It could also means exactly what it says! Even when the map is 100% random, mathematically, it's possible for the same random map to show up more than once. This probability is extremely rare, but it's possible!

It could also means exactly what it says! Even when the map is 100% random, mathematically, it's possible for the same random map to show up more than once. This probability is extremely rare, but it's possible!


Ok I tcan be for one map, but I have checked about 10MAPS with the sam result!!!

That check uses a CRC of the map to check if the map is one that has been used in another submission in the HOF database. Generally when this happens it's just that a player has accidentally submitted the same game twice, or with the start file check page they are checking a game they have already submitted.

Could you send the file to hof@civfanatics.net and I'll check it?

I havr just sent a mail to you with some bc4000, would you please check them.

I havr just sent a mail to you with some bc4000, would you please check them.
Thanks for the files Bozso. I've looked at them and they are all matches for games that you have already submitted!

While we're doing all the polls can we get one for barbarians on or off?

While we're doing all the polls can we get one for barbarians on or off?
You're welcome to make one on your own.;) :)

I'll have to figure out how to make a poll. :blush: I'll try.

While we're doing all the polls can we get one for barbarians on or off?


Bah! I always have barbarians on, on a standard map there are 4 different groups of them, and it goes up with map size.


My point is subtle.

As promised at the start of the previous update the rules have now been changed to no longer allow games to be played in 1.09. Only games started and played through to completion on 1.52 will be accepted.

Is the perpetual anarchy bug allowed in hall of fame? Cos both the top games are using it.

It's allowed for the beta hall of fame. It hasn't been ruled on for the permanent one yet. But there is a thread about it here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=152526).

As Shillen said, it's allowed in the beta HOF. During the length of the beta HOF we will try to avoid making decisions about exploits, instead allowing you to find them and report them and hopefully to get them fixed before we finish the beta period.

Would this kind of city placement be allowed in the HoF?

Here is a picture of it:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/ironring.jpg

Here is the thread that talked about it:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=138473

If not, I will test its limit.:D

Would this kind of city placement be allowed in the HoF?

Yes, nothing in the rules about it. Let us know how it works out!

I read through the HOF rules, loaded the HOF mod, and started a new game. After finishing, I found the 4000bc checker and it says my map is 1.52 unrecognized install? What does that mean?

I read through the HOF rules, loaded the HOF mod, and started a new game. After finishing, I found the 4000bc checker and it says my map is 1.52 unrecognized install? What does that mean?
You may have altered files in your assets folder. Download the attached assests checker Dianthus built. It may give you some immediated feedback. In any case, save the results and e-mail it to hof@civfanatics.net so he can take a look at it.

edit: fixed incorrect e-mail address.

If that's the same checker being used for GOTM, I've already run it, and apparently I have a different sort order than the norm. I can't load the password protected GOTM files either. So I guess until that issue is straightened out I can't play the HOF?

If that's the same checker being used for GOTM
It's a different one.



I've already run it, and apparently I have a different sort order than the norm.
Have you got an NTFS partition you can install Civ4 to?



I can't load the password protected GOTM files either. So I guess until that issue is straightened out I can't play the HOF?
Send us the results and submit one game and we'll take a look.

Asset check results sent to hof@civfanatics.com. Game uploaded, entry #515. I don't have time now, but I may try creating an NTFS partition tonight and see if that fixes anything. So is that the theory right now? That those of us with FAT32 installs are having problems?

Asset check results sent to hof@civfanatics.com. Game uploaded, entry #515. I don't have time now, but I may try creating an NTFS partition tonight and see if that fixes anything. So is that the theory right now? That those of us with FAT32 installs are having problems?I think it has something to do with different default sort order of the files.

Rather than creating a new partition you can simplily convert your File System to NTFS. I have done this several times over the years on my work PCs when running either Windows 2000 or Windows XP. In the case of FAT file systems, I actually gained free space. (NTFS has smaller page sizes on disk so tiny files waste less space.) I am not sure about FAT32 but you shouldn't lose any. I do know that it is very safe as it won't execute if you don't have enough free space. It is no worse than doing a defragmentation.

From Windows XP help:

To convert a volume to NTFS from the command prompt
1. Open the Command Prompt window.
2. In the command prompt window, type
convert drive_letter: /fs:ntfs

For example, typing convert D: /fs:ntfs would format drive D: with
the ntfs format.

Notes

To open a command prompt, click Start, point to Programs,
point to Accessories, and then click Command Prompt.

You can convert FAT or FAT32 volumes to NTFS with
this command.

I think the reason I left it as FAT32 is I was still dualbooting with Windows ME, but haven't used ME in ages. Probably ought to get rid of that. I might try converting and see what happens.

Actually, after reading the help file for the convert option, I'm not sure it will help on the boot partition. I'm due for a clean install of XP soon anyway, so for now I might just try the separate NT partition and see what happens.

Ok, I converted an empty test partion from FAT32 to NTFS, uninstalled Civ4, installed it to the NTFS partition, patched it and installed the HOF mod. Started it up, saved a start file and ran it through the checker and it passed! I also am now able to load the password protected GOTM2 file.

My main windows install is still on FAT32 and my "My Documents" is also on a different FAT32 partition.

Ok, I converted an empty test partion from FAT32 to NTFS, uninstalled Civ4, installed it to the NTFS partition, patched it and installed the HOF mod. Started it up, saved a start file and ran it through the checker and it passed! I also am now able to load the password protected GOTM2 file.

My main windows install is still on FAT32 and my "My Documents" is also on a different FAT32 partition.Alright. :goodjob:

With no cheat mode checked it only uses files in the install directory. I think someone posted that the sort issue will be fixed in the next patch.

I understand the requirement for a limit of 2 entries for any player on any table but have a question about my third entry in the Settler Duel Domination tables. My first two entries were for quick finishes while the third was for high score. Are the quick finish and high score tables actually seperate so I could have as many as 2 entries on each table? The faster the finish the lower the score in these games so the highest score game wouldn't be listed in the fastest finishes as it would be the third entry. At the same time the fastest finish wouldn't be listed in the highest score table as it would be the third entry. Of coures that presumes that all of these games actually in the top 10 in each catagory which may not be the case at the next update.

I understand the requirement for a limit of 2 entries for any player on any table but have a question about my third entry in the Settler Duel Domination tables. My first two entries were for quick finishes while the third was for high score. Are the quick finish and high score tables actually seperate so I could have as many as 2 entries on each table? The faster the finish the lower the score in these games so the highest score game wouldn't be listed in the fastest finishes as it would be the third entry. At the same time the fastest finish wouldn't be listed in the highest score table as it would be the third entry. Of coures that presumes that all of these games actually in the top 10 in each catagory which may not be the case at the next update.
Each table is independent of the other tables. The scenario you described is correct.

This might have already been asked, but...

How long do we need to keep our game files after they have been submitted? According to my "My Submissions" it has already been accepted. Can we delete them once they have been accepted?

A limit of 2 entries for any player on any table?

So if a 3rd entry of the player has a higher score or faster finish will the old one be replaced?

Yes, it will put your two highest scores on the table. That way you can try and beat your own times as well.

How long do we need to keep our game files after they have been submitted? According to my "My Submissions" it has already been accepted. Can we delete them once they have been accepted?
Yes, once accepted you're safe.

Quick question: Is "Regenerate Map" acceptable? Note: I'm refering to the "Regeneate Map" from the main menu. Thanks!

Yes, regenerate is allowed, just be careful to save the start file yourself. There's a bug that a new autosave isn't created when you regenerate.

There's a bug that a new autosave isn't created when you regenerate.

Thanks!:) I didn't know about that bug.

Question: When I generate a map for playing Gaunlet VI and upload it to test the start file I get "GOTM starts not allowed " on the Map category.

I've tried with different map types. What could cause this?

Question: When I generate a map for playing Gaunlet VI and upload it to test the start file I get "GOTM starts not allowed " on the Map category.

I've tried with different map types. What could cause this?
It shouldn't do that for files you've generated yourself. Could you send an example file to hof@civfanatics.net?

Deleted. x-posted with Dianthus.

Deleted. x-posted with Dianthus.
Yes, but I was first :mischief:.

Though shame on us for 2 posts without welcoming jvanderh.

Welcome to CFC jvanderh! :band::banana::dance:

Will exploit games be counted in score statistics in the permanent HoF?

Will exploit games be counted in score statistics in the permanent HoF?
My crystal ball into the future is a bit foggy today. (In other words, I have no idea.)

When I click the full update details link in previous update threads I'm shown the recent one. Where can I find past update information?

When I click the full update details link in previous update threads I'm shown the recent one. Where can I find past update information?
Currently it's not possible via the HOF site. That's something I've been intending to add for quite a while but not got around to it, even for the Civ3 HOF! Until I get around to it you'll have to look for the update threads in this forum.

i played a warlord game .score is 542435.i submit it but i made amistake about 4000bc save.i didnt find it.:blush: :blush: :blush: .the earliest save is 6 turns after my firs city.(3560BC).is it a problem ???.if you want i can only send saves after 3560 bc ..

i played a warlord game .score is 542435.i submit it but i made amistake about 4000bc save.i didnt find it.:blush: :blush: :blush: .the earliest save is 6 turns after my firs city.(3560BC).is it a problem ???.if you want i can only send saves after 3560 bc ..
Send in the 3560bc save with the rest and we'll take a look.;)

Send in the 3560bc save with the rest and we'll take a look.;)
you accepted the game.i think no need to send the other saves.:)

Will games lacking start files be accepted in permanent HoF?

Will games lacking start files be accepted in permanent HoF?
No, they won't.

When I checked the start file for a game I was going to submit it said: "Version 1.52 Unrecognized Install". :(
Any idea why? :confused:

Unfortunately that file failed the HOF settings checks. The red cells below are the checks that failed:

Version 1.52
Unrecognized Install
Game Type Single Player
Map Type Duel
Opponents 1
Repeated Leaders No
Teams No
Map OK
No City Razing Checked
No City Flipping From Culture Unchecked
City Flipping after Conquest Unchecked
No Barbarians Checked
Raging Barbarians Unchecked
Aggressive AI Unchecked
Random Personalities Unchecked
No Technology Trading Unchecked
Permanent Alliances Unchecked
Always War Unchecked
Always Peace Unchecked
One City Challenge Unchecked
Permanent War or Peace Unchecked
Disable Random Seed Unchecked
No Cheating Checked
Enabled
Enabled
Enabled
Enabled
Enabled
Enabled

When I checked the start file for a game I was going to submit it said: "Version 1.52 Unrecognized Install". :(
Any idea why? :confused:
It most likely it means either:

Some files have been changed in your assets dir, such as xml/py files.
You're using a filesystem other than NTFS.


Could you download this utility:
http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/mods/Civ4AssetChecker1.1.zip

Extract it from the zip file and run it. Click on "Check". When that completes click on "Save Results" and save the .csv file somewhere, then send that .csv file back to us at hof@civfanatics.net.

Could you download this utility:
http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/mods/Civ4AssetChecker1.1.zip

Extract it from the zip file and run it. Click on "Check". When that completes click on "Save Results" and save the .csv file somewhere, then send that .csv file back to us at hof@civfanatics.net.

I used it but it said: "Failed to find Civ 4's assets folder"? :confused: I haven't changed any files and I have submitted games before with no problems. :crazyeye:

I used it but it said: "Failed to find Civ 4's assets folder"? :confused: I haven't changed any files and I have submitted games before with no problems. :crazyeye:
I tried to send you an email but it bounced. Could you make sure your email address on the HOF site is up to date?

I tried to send you an email but it bounced. Could you make sure your email address on the HOF site is up to date?

Alright I've fixed it.

I'll submit it anyway and see what happens. :suicide:
:wallbash:

Now the patch is here, the HoF will remain beta?

We're working on it. Hopefully waiting for the patch has been good practice, and now you're all MORE, not less patient :mischief:.

Don't think we need this one anymore.