Start the “Custom Game”. Here are the settings I chose (Note: It's ironic I took a picture of this, as you'll see in a bit. I didn't even have to recreate it. I stored it as I did it). As you can see, I went with Washington. SEALS might be good, I suppose, if we last that long. And Financial/Organized seems the best way to get the most cash flow. I am expecting HUGE difficulties in tech and a bit of extra gold might help with that. <Shrug> But it’s just a guess.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR17-settings.JPG

We start here...

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR17-start.JPG

(0) 4000 - Those are two freshwater lakes on either side of us. NOT a coastal start. Elephants are the only resource visible. YIKES! But the AI suggests settling in place. If nothing else, those lakes will give us some food and commerce (Good thing we have Sailing), but…. OY! So little info. So much riding on it. The map generator so far has been kind with resources near the start, so I’m going to count on them being there. Settle in place. And no resources appear. *SIGH* Gonna be a SLOW start. That can’t be good. Start a warrior who will take 15 turns to build. Guess that will give us time to grow.

Starting tech? Well, I *DO* think we need some religion this game. We can’t really count on getting one from anybody else. We have Agriculture and Sailing, the two techs we need to make the most out of our starting squares. Mysticism it is.

(1) 3960 - Just move a bit.

(I) WTF? Hetshepsut appears to talk. Umm….I thought we were going to start apart. I don’t know about this….

Yeah, she’s RIGHT THERE! With a scout in our face. How’d that happen? I guess I screwed up the map generation? I dunno. Anyway, Egypt starts with Wheel and Agriculture (normally), so unless the Deity AI gets Sailing as a bonus (possible), their start will be a bit slower than ours. Assuming identical starting positions, which seemed implied, but I guess I’m interpreting the maps wrong. Unless “Small” is like 12X20.

(5) 3800 - Hetshepsut’s scout could just about walk into our undefended Washington. What is she doing so close? Border expansion. Woo-hoo?

(I) Mysticism -> Polytheism.

And we find Egypt's capital....

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR17-Thebes.JPG

(15) 3400 - Warrior starts heading East to explore land we might be able to get. One warrior now in Washington as token defense. I’m not paying much attention. I don’t know if we’ll want to continue this.

Well, we end up getting Hinduism first.

But I don’t set it as our state religion. Might as well go for Buddhism, too, and get some culture going. We have no shields in Washington anyway. Might let it grow to size 4 before sending out settlers/workers. Not much for workers to do anyway.

(20) 3200 - Still not much going on. Finding a few resources to the east. A potential second city site with corn and crabs (after cultural expansion).

We’re first to Meditation, too. So we have HinBudism. But I don’t go for Judaism, preferring instead to start us on a bit of military, with Hunting (leading to Archery).

3080 - Thinking some desert might be land bridge, I explore. Oh, it’s the edge of the map. We’re terribly squashed. There are maybe 6 squares east of Washington total. Course, I have no idea how big the map is. Just that Egypt is RIGHT ON TOP OF US!

(30) 2800 - Hatty adopts Slavery. So she has Bronze Working. We, uh, don’t. Just finished our third warrior. I was thinking of letting Washington grow to size 4 before building a settler/worker, but it’s up to the next player. Storing some shields in an archer might not be a bad plan.

Anyway, final pic of the land. Do we want to continue?

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR17-2800bc.JPG

Roster:
Arathorn -- just played
grahamiam -- NOT up -- vote needed
Mark1031 -- vote needed
Vol -- vote needed
bed_head7 -- vote needed

VOTE: Continue or not? I'll be the tie-breaker if I have to be.

Note: Any suggestions on changing the settings to get a better map would be appreciated. [Hint: Sirian]

Arathorn

Signing in. :wavey:

Well this definitely not what I had imagined. Like everything Civilization, knowing the rules is pretty crucial to success! ;)

Per Sirian's descriptions (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=134226), I think the biggest problem is selecting Team Setting to "Start Seperately". See, our opponent is not on our team. Meaning, we do not start seperately from them, we start with them. If we had teams, Start Seperately would mean one civ from each team starts on each "mirror." I wouldn't be surprised if this catches a TON of people who casually read the option. :mad:

I think we want to definitely select Reflection or Inversion as our Mirror Type.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/sample-mirror.jpg
Actually, giving it more thought, perhaps Copy is best, as that should assure we're at least half a map away. Whatever it is, I don't think with such an artificial map concept we should leave it to Random.

Archipelago might be superior as well, which should give us a coastal start for sure. With Snakey Continents, it is not.

Now as for my vote? Well since this is an extremely low probability of success to begin with, does it really matter? I suppose its a matter of how much we want to follow the spirit of our original thoughts about this game. The weak capitol is a turn-off, as is the lack of a coastal start, and the proximity of our opponent, which we had hoped would be an water body away. :(

An Archipelago, Reflection, Start Together, would be my choice for a re-roll, which I will vote for with desire of following the spirit of the game.

Finally, with regards to your turnset (kept or not). Settling in place was the right decision (or at least the one I would have made). :goodjob: I think we definitely need to found at least one religion, being drowned in culture is a real possibility. I think focusing on founding three would be folly however (although in a duel that means the AI might get 5 religions founded... Hmm... duel is interesting! :D ). If we get one of the later ones, so be it. After that, though, I think our early techs should focus on improving our available resources.

Hmm. It looks like I forgot to update the mirror pic in the file pack I distributed!

That's my bad. I updated the pic, but failed to send out the latest version of the sample! Woops. (Arrgh, too bad there wasn't room to send it out on the Civ4 disks!)

Mirror got some last-minute enhancements, chief among them that Two Teams and Start Together always produces a perfect mirrorization. (For obscure technical reasons, it wasn't working that way at first.)


Choosing Start Separated was indeed the problem here. That's the TEAM setting, as in members of your own team. (It's chiefly a multiplay map!)

Try again with Start Together and you should be fine.


- Sirian

Here's the correct sample picture for Mirror:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/sample-mirror.gif

Ooh, I definitely like the looks of that Archipelago for a Financial Civ!

Well, since we didn't get a start that matched our goals for the game, a reroll seems in order to me.

Reroll Archi map

Will reroll a "Start Together" Archi map when I can. Either tonight or tomorrow. I'm glad the team went that way. After sleeping on it, that's the way I would want, too.

I'll keep with Washington, though.

Arathorn

:wavey: checking in. garee with the reroll

:lol:

This is exactly what happened to me when I started my own Deity game (after being too late for this one...)

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=136886

I decided to keep it, and I'm now running an OCC in 1000 BC and Hatty has about 6x the score I do. But she's Pleased and hasn't come close to being aggressive yet, so maybe something is salvagable? Especially for superior gamers than myself?

(Then again, my OC has horses, corn, clams, dyes, spices, and 2 forested hills :eek: )

Alright. Pretty similar settings, except Archipelago and "Start Together" so we can start separated!

I took a snapshot of the opening view and then promptly overwrote the file! Whoops! :( Anyway, you'll see it all real soon anyway.

(0) 4000 - Settle in place. Rice will be in range once we expand. We have some variety of terrains around that look semi-OK. I doubt it’s optimal, but it’s a canal city, too.

I actually start working the lake instead of a grassland forest. I want some commerce while we grow, to try to get a religion (again). It slows our warrior build, but that’s OK by me. Growth is my main concern. And 3 commerce is hard to pass up (for only one shield) -- doubly so with no barbs. Full bore on Mysticism (only 6 turns).

(5) 3800 - Border expansion. Work the rice for 3 food or the lake for 2 food and 3 commerce? Until we get a religion, I’m going with commerce over food. I hope I don’t regret that later.

When Mysticism comes in, I go for Polytheism and Hinduism, as a bit safer option than Buddhism, which can fall so fast.

(7) 3720 - Complete our scouting. I knew our island might be small, but this is ridiculous. I guess I beeline Sailing as soon as we get some religion.

Holy Smallness, Batman!!!
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR17-Smallness.JPG

(8) 3680 - Buddhism founded. I hope we win the race to Hinduism. I stay high commerce.

(11) 3560 - Washington grows to two. Working coast for 3 commerce (but only one food) vs. the rice for 3 food makes only a one turn difference on Polytheism. One turn may critical, but I go for growth, with fingers crossed!

(15) 3400 - Our warrior completes. I store shields in … a work boat, actually. That might be useful once we have a second city and can snag a couple fish. Can it explore even? I don't think it can leave our cultural control, though.

(16) 3360 - We win the race to Hinduism! Yay! Since other religions are going to be few and far between, I go ahead and convert our state religion to Hinduism. That’s a big of happiness for our capital, but a one-turn anarchy. Research is set to sailing, of course.

(20) 3200 - Washington reaches size 3. I very seriously consider switching. A worker won’t help things too much too fast. A settler is pretty high on my list. There is one other spot on our island worth settling. But, well, size will help in a lot of ways and that second city won’t be much good until that work boat finishes. Just stay the course to size 4 and then settler, then workboat, then worker is my plan at this point.

The only thing I do besides hit enter for a large number of turns is pick another tech. I go with Masonry, as that allows the Great Lighthouse. Not certain we want it, but it’s worth considering. On the way to Judaism, too, but I don’t think that’s going to be a big issue.

(29) 2840 - Washington hits size 4. I move off the lake to get another good square for food/hammers. Settler due in 15. And we have the ability to build galleys, but no hammers to dedicate to that at this point.

(30) 2800 - Just waiting for a project to finish. There’s nowhere to scout more without ships, that we haven’t had hammers to build yet.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR17-2800bc2.JPG

Map notes: That looks like the right edge to me. The lines are much sharper and less hinting at the next land type than to the west. I’m thinking we’re near the edge of the map.

I think we should put a second city on our main landmass. I say that because it will claim two fishes, which is good eating. It should be able to provide all kinds of commerce for us, down the road. I would finish the work boat after the settler, then a worker, then a galley, then probably another settler. Don’t be afraid to keep Washington size 4 for a bit. Maybe grow to size 5, but use some of our higher hammer plots to finish builds faster.

Roster:
Arathorn
grahamiam - UP NOW (20 turns)
Mark1031 - on deck (20 turns)
Vol - will play 10 turns
bed_head7 - will play 10 turns

We're underway. Continue to explore and expand, I'd say. Boats and settlers are pretty high on my priority list. A worker for our mainland would be good, but one is enough for a while.

Arathorn

Good stuff. This should be interesting! Concur that we're on the far right of the map.

Since we could probably all agree we don't stand a chance militarily against a Deity opponent without an early attack (not likely on this map), it would be worth seeing if one can maintain good relations. This could be valuable for scouting and learning about Deity. With the 1v1 format, we can bend over backwards to foster our relationship, and settle if it is even possible to appease such a beast. Additionally, not pursuing military action probably keeps us around longer, and would enable characterizing mid- and late-game Deity. However, if we want to launch an assault instead and go out in a blaze of glory, tally-ho!

I don't see the save for grahamiam. :scan:

i would get it, but I don't see it. I'm going to watch a movie with the better half and check later.

looks like Arathorn wasn't able to get back to the board tonight. I will be away tomorrow and back Sunday night. I'd hate to slow this down right from the beginning, so please feel free to move me down in the order or skip me. I don't want to hold things up :)

I love how you guys still call the hammers "shields".

Save file? Boy, you guys want everything! :blush:

Attached to this message.

(Revised) Roster:
Arathorn
Mark1031 - UP NOW (20 turns)
Vol - on deck (20 turns)
bed_head7 - will play 10 turns
grahamiam - will play 10 turns (thanks for keeping us updated)

Arathorn

For some reason, I can't manage my attachments right now. A hyperactive popup blocker, I think, but it won't listen when I turn it off. Anyway, it's at http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR17_BC-2800.Civ4SavedGame now

You know, one obvious thing that I missed: our opponent starts on an identical island (could be flipped or mirrored or upside down). It will be interesting to see what the Deity opponent does with city placement and terrain improvement compared to us.

got it for tonight.

2800: I switch to the lake tile which delays the settler by 2 but increases research rate. If we are trying for a 2nd religion which would be good we should do this.

2520: Masonry in Mono in 12.

2360: We loose race to Judiasm by 8 turns. Oh well it will be nice to get mono any way for organized religion which increases building builds by 25% in cities with state religion. Switch back to high shields for settler in 1 less turn. Mono now in 10 vs 8.

2280: Our opponent completes Stonehenge.

2200: Settler->workboat in D.C. send settler to only site.

2120: NY is founded and starts workboat. switch to lighthouse as this would take too long. Unfortunately this city has only 2 health as it has no forest or fresh water. Ouch. Not as important as happy as I think all it does is cost 1 food/health and we will have plenty there with 2 fish.

2040: We have fish.

2000: Mono in as start us toward writing as we will want libraries. Also start revolt to organized religion. Well this will be a struggle. I would say that NY be a settler/worker factory at size 3 (we need to hook up the rice) and D.C. makes boats for exploration. We obviously need to get out and grab resources we have very few. We are happy limited at 4 in D.C. so a calendar will be important as many of the lux require it. We’ll have to see what is out there. I would put NY on a worker at size 2 and D.C. on a galley after the 2nd workboat finishes.


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/lotr17-2000BC.JPG

Got it, will play right now (heads up to bed_head7).

(0) 2000 BC
Looks good, we're in anarchy. I'm not entirely sure about researching Priesthood -> Writing right now. But there aren't any resources around that need mines or pastures, so pushing for research and Calendar (for those Dyes) is probably right. I don't think researching military would do much at this point either.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR17_2000BC_Research_Plan.jpg

Our surrounding terrain sure isn't inviting. Desert, Tundra, and Jungle on all the nearby landmasses. But our opponent is facing the same thing.

Checking the Top 5 Cities (F9), we can see that India is our opponent. Spiritual and Industrious. Sounds like we're going to lose all the Wonders, and Great People from those Wonders will be popping out like mad. :( These traits are important to keep in mind.

(1) 1960 BC
Some features of the game lose their value in a 1v1 Deity game:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR17_1960BC_Big_Surprise.jpg
:D

I switch one of our grassland forest (2/1/0) tiles at Washington to the lake (2/0/3).

(2) 1920 BC Nothing.
(3) 1880 BC Nothing.
(4) 1840 BC
Work Boat finishes in Washington. On any other difficulty level, I'd probably go with a Lighthouse, which would build at +125% (Organized building Lighthouse + Organized Religion), however the Deity happy limit makes it pointless to pursue more food right now. Galley it is, in 10 turns (ugh). The workboat heads to the other New York fish, will take 3 turns.

(5) 1800 BC Nothing.
(6) 1760 BC
Priesthood comes in. Spock reads some Bible verses to me. Still see no reason to pursue worker techs or military techs. With Writing and Libraries, those techs will come quicker anyway. So Writing it is (in 10).

Work Boat builds Fishing Boats on the Fish. New York is ready to be a Worker/Settler factory as soon as it finishes the Lighthouse in 7.

(7) 1720 BC Nothing.
(8) 1680 BC Nothing.
(9) 1640 BC Nothing.
(10) 1600 BC New York grows to size 3, has one unhealthiness, but we have 6 excess food and 3 shields hammers.
(11) 1560 BC Nothing.

(12) 1520 BC
Hinduism spreads to New York, which would have been nice a few turns back to get the building bonus with Organized Religion on the Lighthouse. Oh well, we'll still get the border-expanding bonus from the culture as well as the happy face.

(13) 1480 BC
New York completes its Lighthouse. Worker next. Can choose between working the plains forest (1/2/0) or ocean (2/0/3). With the forest, there's 8 excess food + 3 hammers going towards a Worker (60 required = 6 turns, steady state), and 7 commerce (8 with the +1 from trade route). With the ocean tile, there's 9 excess food + 1 hammer for the Worker production (an even 10 per turn works well for 60 and 100 "hammer" Workers and Settlers), and gives 10 commerce (11 with trade).

With hammer overflow, the forest tile could shave one turn off the Settler 160 "hammer/food" from now. Shaving one turn off of a 15 turn production cycle doesn't seem worth the +3 commerce. So we work the ocean tile.

(14) 1440 BC
Here's a shot of New York:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR17_1440BC_New_York.jpg

Washington produces the Galley, and I queue up another one. I send this galley to explore to the south, which seems more promising than the frozen north (despite looking heavily jungled [I don't think thats a word]).

Our "rival" continues to grab religions. Thank Vishnu we got Hinduism! :worship:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR17_1440BC_Confucianism.jpg
Confucianism comes with Code of Laws, which requires Writing + Priesthood, so its only one tech ahead of us.

(15) 1400 BC
Writing comes in. Spock lectures me on glory.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR17_1400BC_Research_Choices.jpg
I definitely don't feel like researching something that will take a dozen turns or more. I first think about Pottery for Granaries and Cottages, which requires Wheel first and doesn't lead to anything (besides Writing), but in the very near term (<10 turns) I don't see us building either. On the other hand, I do see us possibly chopping a forest in the very near term, and needing a strong unit like Axemen and wanting to know where Copper is, so I select Mining in 4 with the goal of Bronze Working.

I could switch the Galley at Washington to a Library in 15 turns, but I think we really need two boats (one for exploring another for hauling units). After the second galley though, I think we have to get the Library in Washington (will get +25% on 11 research, which should be +2 after round-down).

Galley exploring to the south seems to indicate the southern island is likely larger than ours, but equally appealing (jungle instead of desert).

(16) 1360 BC
Imhotep is born in a far away land. No surprise from a Spiritual, Industrious, Deity opponent. :rolleyes: Will be interesting to see if another religion is founded next turn (one common use for an early Prophet).

(17) 1320 BC Nothing.
(18) 1280 BC
Pyramids complete in a far away land (F9 shows it is Delhi again, which has Stonehedge, Oracle, and Pyramids).

(19) 1240 BC
Mining comes in. Bronze Working in 7.

Worker finishes in New York. Start on a Settler in 10. I send the Worker towards Washington.

(20) 1200 BC
Here's the world as we know it:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR17_1200BC_World_Map.jpg
The southern island should be able to support a number of (fishing) villages. I think finding ways to get hammers is going to be major theme of this game.

--- The Save --- (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR17_BC-1200.Civ4SavedGame)

I strongly recommend using Windowed mode (instead of Full Screen) if you find the Alt-Tab delay to be too annoying to write good turnlogs. Windowed mode eliminates the delay entirely (however you seem to lose edge-of-screen scrolling).

Roster:
Arathorn
Mark1031
Vol - just played
bed_head7 - Up now! (10 turns)
grahamiam - on deck

Got it. Will try to do physics for an hour or so before playing, so there is some time to comment, if necessary. Not that I see much to discuss at the moment.

1080 BC (3) - Worker starts farming the rice.

1040 BC (4) - Galley in Washington finishes. As it is at its health limit until rice is hooked up, start on one more galley. Once we have rice connected, the settler will complete faster.

975 BC (6) - Finish Bronze Working, start The Wheel for roads. We have copper just outside Washington.

925 BC (8) - Great Lighthouse completed by Gandhi.

900 BC (9) - New York finishes settler, starts a worker.

875 BC (10) - We learn the Wheel. Start on Animal Husbandry, but it is very vetoable. so we can build camps Worker starts roading the rice.

I left the galley with settler unmoved, so we can decide if we would rather go for horses or for ivory.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR17_875BC.jpg

I think we're going to have to balance the needs for a Library in Washington with having enough defenses that Gandhi doesn't immediately attack due to being such an easy target.

With grahamiam out until Sunday night, its Arathorn's call on whether to skip or not.

I look forward to the next players decision-making process on selecting our next city site. Productivity? Resources? Luxuries?

We're going to wait for grahamiam, as Sunday night is just a few hours away at this point. I couldn't have played anyway. That's one quick pace you guys set!

As for strategy, I think happiness will be huge. A luxury resource lets every single city we can connect grow one size larger and still be valuable. That's going to have to be very important. With nearly everything coastal for connections, we migth be able to wait a LONG time before doing Wheel and roads. And health will be nice, as will productive cities, but I think luxuries are quite important.

I would also get a third and, possibly even a fourth, galley out there exploring. Knowledge of the land will be critical, as we decide what city spots can't wait, which we could potentially afford to lose, and where our foe may be coming from.

Arathorn

I already researched The Wheel so I could hook up the rice with the capital and New York, since they needed the health badly. I agree on building extra galleys, though.

I strongly recommend using Windowed mode (instead of Full Screen) if you find the Alt-Tab delay to be too annoying to write good turnlogs. Windowed mode eliminates the delay entirely (however you seem to lose edge-of-screen scrolling).
Check out Civilization4.ini in the CIV directory (the one with the saves, etc.) and change this setting:
; Allow Mouse Scrolling in Windowed mode
MouseScrolling = 0
to 1.

Ooh, now there's never a reason to not play in Windowed mode!
(Note, make sure you turn off Always On Top on your Windows Taskbar if you want to avoid part of your screen being trimmed off)

wait a LONG time before doing Wheel and roadsDon't forget you need it for Pottery and granaries though, which might not be worth it here. Hard to say really.

Granaries also give a health boost, as do harbors.

Health isn't nearly the problem that Happiness is on Deity.

sorry, weekend was a bit longer than expected :)

will play and post tonight.

For happy we need to get to monarchy for the MPs This will allow us to grow bigger before lux are on line. We also are organized so this expensive civic will cost less and if we don’t hook up the copper we can build cheap warriors for MP. We will be very shield poor at least in our starting lands. I hope we don’t meet Gandi too soon. I think now we need to get as much growth and research going so that we can keep up in tech. Having only 1 deity opponent may actually be harder since he will get all the religions and wonders and we will have no allies. I do think when we meet him we will have to be prepared to take him on in war frequently to knock him down a few notches. War civic goals are Monarchy, Vassalage, Theocracy. Expensive civics but we are organized.

I will be away from the 10th –the 16th. Since the game does not work on my laptop please skip me if I’m up in that time. I will be able to peak in on progress.

Interesting idea on the copper. I agree with a Fin/Org leader, we should see just how much damage we can do with Vassalage/Theocracy.

We could also consider trying to get the "circumnavigation" +1 boat movement bonus. Although this would almost certainly entail meeting Gandhi, it might be very useful in the long run.

right now, the choice is ivory or horses, right? At least for the galley settler. imho, going for the ivory seems best for the happy faces. I'll play in about an hour, so chime in if you disagree with me :)

I agree on the ivory as our probable highest priority.

The extra +1 movement from circumnavigation is nice. And avoiding Gandhi can only happen for so long. I just think we're a long ways from that right now. We need to scout our immediate area first and get our core set of cities up and running well before we go off on that tangent.

Arathorn

Preflight check: Move the galley and see baldy


Well, there goes the neighborhood :lol: Crap, he has a city on the ivory island. Well, settler jumped off already.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v645/grahamiam/lotr17-875BC.jpg

T1: 850BC It’s probably suicide, but I settle Boston near the ivory -> warrior. Well, now we get to find out how aggressive the AI can be.

Don’t know if it’s a bug or not, but the galley SE of our capitol can no longer move E :hmm:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v645/grahamiam/lotr17-850BC.jpg

IBT: Washington galley -> warrior

T2: 825BC Can’t build a road on the rice??? It’s also still not connected to the cities even though the farm is done? Move worker to forest to road. Maybe that will connect it.

IBT:

T3: 800BC galleys are exploring a bit. I am trying to keep 2 near our island to fend off any possible attack.

IBT:

T4: 775BC Washington warrior -> warrior. Ok, now that the road is finished, the rice is connected to Washington and all other cities.

IBT: Boston warrior -> oblisk (I want some quick culture); New York warrior -> finish worker (3T)

T5: 750BC galleys are still exploring

Washington warrior -> settler

T6: 725BC Move warrior out of Washington towards NY

IBT: Ghandi offers open borders. I accept to improve relations and I don’t see anything specifically against it in the rules. We want to survive for a little while, right? :lol:
Animal Husbandry -> Hunting (so we can build a camp on the ivory)

T7: 700BC I mine the copper. We need something better than warriors

New York worker -> Hindu Temple

IBT:

T8: 675BC Move new worker on galley over towards Boston. Will drop off next turn.

T9: 650BC Workers begin roading the ivory (2T); Hunting due in 2T as well

T10: 625BC Move galley out of Boston to scout more Indian territory. This galley must go back to New York to fetch the settler (due in 7T). Start sending it back next turn.
Western galley finds more purple border.

Indians are way ahead, and seem very large. The settlement on our ivory island is just a remote colony, not the main island, which just shows how fast he has expanded on this map.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v645/grahamiam/lotr17-675BC.jpg

grahamiam, may I ask, how did you get that blue and violet in there?

grahamiam, may I ask, how did you get that blue and violet in there?
zoom all the way out, then click on the button over the minimap that has a picture of a person praying purple musical note ;)

Don’t know if it’s a bug or not, but the galley SE of our capitol can no longer move E

There be dragons there!!! No one dare go east any further.

(It's the edge of the map. A fair number of these "MP" maps (designed primarily for multi-player) don't wrap. That is, the world's flat, not cylindrical, like all worlds we know and love, except the oddity that is the Earth. Who ever heard of a spherical world? :))

Well, with contact with Gandhi, we can hopefully get some idea where he is techwise. Just how far behind are we? We can also get some better information from F8/F9, I think. We should be able to tell just how big and populous he is. That's useful scouting information, I think. Does anybody know how far down the list of names Bangalore is for India?

Roster:
Arathorn - Up now! (10 turns) [errr...will get it when I'm home from work]
Mark1031 - on deck
Vol - just played
bed_head7
grahamiam

Well, we survived one full round of the roster. Better than at least one earlier LotR game! Let's go for two.

Arathorn

well, as far as tech's go, i think were down by about 10.

Delhi, Bombay, Madras, Bangalore. Not too far behind. Yet.

(0) 625 - Move Washington’s citizen to work the copper mine instead of a forest and save a turn on the settler. NY will grow unhappy soon, but it’s got the food to burn, no good specialists, and will be able to support that citizen once its temple completes. I leave it alone.

(I) Hunting completes. I start us on Pottery. Cottages and Financial are a good pair, if we ever have land tiles to work. Plus, it’s on the way to Metal-Casting.

(1) 600 - Start building a camp on the ivory. Explore with two galleys (find Calcutta -- a size 1 city) and more land to the south. The other returns towards Washington to get the next settler, when it’s ready.

(3) 550 - Bombay is size 11. But only defended by 2 archers and a spear. Heck, we could have that much military in 30 turns if we started during grahamiam’s turn.

Ivory comes in and Gandhi starts a Golden Age, the first of many, I presume.

(5) 500 - Our economy is in the drink…and I’m going to found another city. I’m seriously thinking about building axemen and going after Bangalore.

(6) 475 - I started Iron Working next, actually. Will we have iron? Dare we go after Bangalore? Oh, and Gandhi completes Great Library. We don’t even have Alphabet and he’s completing a wonder for Literature.

(8) 425 - Found Philadelphia. It’ll get another lux, eventually, one its borders expand and we get the tech for it. And our city upkeep costs are quite high. Hard to do much of anything.

(9) 400 - Our transport galley should get the worker near Boston and move it over to by Philadelphia. It can work on improving things there.

I turned the “Avoid Growth” thing on in Washington. It would grow to unhappiness and we don’t need that right now. NY is unhappy but will be even on happiness once its temple completes.

I’m stopping after 9 to even the turns. Judging by F9, we’re about one-third of Gandhi right now, in terms of hammers and gold. We have only about 1/5th the population, though.

On the plus side, that’s better than we’d be doing against everybody if we were doing AWN, so it’s not all bad -- not yet, anyway.

Roster:
Arathorn
Mark1031 - UP NOW!
Vol - on deck
bed_head7
grahamiam

Arathorn

A picture of the world as we know it....

Arathorn

375: Bangalore now has 3 Archers and 1 spear. Forget about it for now. I really think our best hope is to expand and make sure we grab what we can. In particular we need high production sites however I don’t really see any. Food and health will be an issue. I see corn and crabs that we should grab but that will be it. Lux are also scarce. We need to be Monarchy with large MP for this.

NY Temple->settler. Set it to 1 priest to get prophet for our shrine.

350: DC Library->settler

325: Gandi finds Jesus. We reach the end of the world on his side but get no message. Is’nt this supposed to give us equivalent of Magellans voyage?

300: Boston becomes Christian. We need a missionary to give it Hindu as well.

275:zzz

250: IW in -> Monarchy in 10

225-150: Not much. DC Library->Rax. Gandi founds Taoism in 150. Explored most of the world and there is not much out there. Very limited resources. We should grab a silks and stone on the island SW of Bangalore. This should have reasonable production. Also the corn site on the south of Island 2. We have a settler ready to found by the Iron hill.

IMO we need to spam a few settlers maybe 1-2 more and get lighthouses on line to support them. When Monarchy comes in I would revolt to Hereditary rules and slavery so we can whip some things. DC is our only good production city ATM and should churn units for protection and MPs while the other cities expand and build infra. I would also push to construction for elephants and pults. With a stock of pults we can take Banglore and hopefully make peace before Gandi can send too much at us. Not sure how easy it is to pound techs. I have found this to be highly variable. One time I got a bunch doing almost nothing and another time I couldn’t get any after concurring 1/3 of an AI empire with very little losses. I don’t know what the determining factor is.

PS I'm out till the 16th

Roster:
Arathorn
Mark1031 -- out until 16th
Vol - UP NOW!
bed_head7 - on deck
grahamiam

I, too, have found my settlements in peace treaties to be very hard to determine. I have no thoughts on that, save that it'll probably be very tough to pointy-stick more than a single tech and I wouldn't be surprised to see 0 techs.

Is’nt this supposed to give us equivalent of Magellans voyage?

I think that's only for cylindrical maps, not flat maps. I think it's disabled for flat maps (and I'd done it on my turn, too -- darn fog-of-war is TOO dark).

Keep on keepin' on!
Arathorn

On further reflection I think the way to go on this one might be to not worry aboug Bangalore and strike right at Gandi's heart and burn down one of his core cities on a bit of a suicide mission, which ever city has the most wonders and is least defended. Maybe need 10-12 units (3-4 cats and swords axemen mix) We can always take out Bangalore and we need to do something major to slow him down.

Got it. Will play tonight.

I have also seen high variability in my peace-talk technology trades. I've gotten 2 techs from a nearly phony war where I only razed one small outpost on my island. I've gotten 0 techs (out of 2 available) when I have captured 2 major towns (including a capitol) and razed another town. And everything in between.

Hopefully, this horrible land will also slow down our opponent. In theory, being a Mirror map, he has no resources to gain (unless he's building a Noah's Ark of resources) from taking our lands. That, combined with our unappealing, unproductive land, and combined with Gandhi's natural personality, means we can probably avoid hostilities until the time of our choosing.

Sounds like we need everything (military, research, more cities, more infrastructure), so I'll do the best I can finding a balance. I do think Siege units will be critical, however.

(0) 150 BC
Well these Mirror maps are interesting. The AI chose to settle Delhi, Bombay, and Calcutta exactly where we placed Washington, New York, and Boston. We put Philadelphia near the Dyes, Gandhi put his city (Lahore) 3 tiles away to get the Iron instead. Bangalore got put on our side of the map, but Gandhi also has a city (Madras) in the exact same place on his side (he has two identical Bangalores, basically).

We're at the happy limit in Washington with 6 citizens, and to avoid growth we have one working as a Scientist, which is good as it piles up some Great People points (are there any ways we can utilize Great People to catch up a bit given our circumstances? :confused: )

All of the demographics seem to confirm the assertion: the Deity opponent is double the human player. Gold, food, production, etc. Except for Power and Culture, where our opponent is easily at quadruple our levels. :twitch:

Another really interesting effect of the extra Settler the Deity opponent starts with: Bombay, the fishing village mirror of New York, is the holy city for Buddism and Judaism!
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR17_150BC_Holy_Cities.jpg
While with this map and setup it may not have much effect, this would significantly mitigate the shrine income in a normal game, as it wouldn't get boosted in the capitol. Kind of an unintended side-effect that weakens a Deity AI a bit. So, because a Deity opponent expands so quickly, their religions will be founded in possibly minor cities, and (especially on an archipelago), they will have a hard time getting all cities on one religion, and thus get little benefit from the religion civics. Having the AI get all of the religions isn't that bad after all.

(1) 125 BC
Gandhi founds Karachi on the tip of "our" horses/spices island (where Boston is). Another lesson on Deity Archipelago: once the AI gets a city on an island, it will pump out settlers to fill that island.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR17_125BC_City_Situation.jpg
I decide to settle in place (where Mark1031 left the Settler). Without Gandhi, I think I would have settled one tile west. But I really don't want more cultural pressure than necessary, and I want to save a turn. So, I found Atlanta. Since it has such poor tiles to work, and we only have two workers in our entire empire, I have it start on a Worker. Our finances go from -2/turn to -6/turn with the new city, and with a treasury of 38 gold, I have to back off research to 70% (-1/turn).

Philadelphia finishes the Lighthouse and starts on an Axemen. The barracks would take 30 turns, the Axeman 18. Since all we have is 6 Warriors for our entire military (with our 5 cities), I decided we needed something with the semblance of teeth sooner rather than later.

(2) 100 BC
Gandhi already has a Christian missionary moving to Karachi (what was I saying about the AI being poor at spreading religion? :blush: ). Of course, I'm pretty sure this is the free missionary he received when founding Christianity in Bangalore.

(3) 75 BC Nothing.

(4) 50 BC
Monarchy comes in. I select Math in 8, as its the prerequisite for Construction. But Construction would take 15 turns at our current pace! And another tempting tech, Metal Casting for Forges in our shield-poor cities, is 14 turns of research. Math is the cheapest tech we can research (except Archery and Meditation which we have put off). Math is also required for Calendar, so we can access those Dyes with a Plantation.

Washington gets its Barracks. Select Axeman in 3. A Temple could be built for +1 happy, and then a Lighthouse for more food on those water tiles, but we have to stop neglecting our military.

New York finishes another Settler. This one I plan to send south to the Corn, for fear of Gandhi stealing that soon. Starts another Settler in 11. I don't want to try and settle the Silks 'n' Stone island, as it would be quite isolate from our empire, with Karachi and Bangalore dividing it, and would be an easy target that could not be easily reinforced. Also, the maintenance on this far away city would kill us.

As much as I'd like Missionaries to spread the faith, it would take 4 turns in Washington and 13 in New York. I'm not yet convinced we don't want to match the state religion of our opponent and get a 6 or 7 point relations swing (from -3 to +3 or +4). This is an option only really available in 1v1. Clearly, religion is a method to help our shield-poor cities with Organized Religion, but in our fragile state, I don't think we can choose this over basic military.

We revolt to Hereditary Rule (+1 happy from MP, Medium Upkeep) and Slavery (can whip, Low Upkeep).

(5) 25 BC
We emerge from Anarchy. Our civic cost remains 1 gold, from Organized Religion. Hereditary Rule has no effect on our finances at the moment.

(6) 1 AD
Hooray, we've survived 4000 years! Lets shoot for another 1000!

(7) 25 AD Nothing.

(8) 50 AD
Axeman produced in Washington, leaving promotion unchosen until needed. Start on a Lighthouse in 3 so that we can grow into our new MP-enabled happiness and also have specialists. Axeman fortifies in Washington for now.

Found Chicago one tile south of the Corn, which avoids cultural conflict with the first 9 tiles. Starts a Lighthouse in 30 (ugh).

This kills our finances.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR17_50AD_Tight_Finances.jpg
I switch New York from Settler to Library, as I don't think we should be building any new cities for a little bit. This also allows New York to grow a bit (again, with MP allowing more happy).

(9) 75 AD Nothing.

(10) 100 AD
Not much. The Galleys are starting to return home to help shuttle as we get some troops.

Bangalore is defended by 2 Archer, Karachi by 3 Archer and a Spearman. I think we should strike at the Delhi or Bombay instead though, try and really cripple him. Not sure how reputation works when we have open borders and want to declare war. Can we do so with a boat in his waters? If so, what is the penalty? Is it worth that penalty? If not, can our offensive succeed without surprise and enduring a few turns at sea?

Transporting a military with Galleys (2 units each) seems quite cumbersome. If its too cumbersome, we'll have to settle for Bangalore and Karachi, using a force rallied at Boston. I don't think Gandhi has much of a Navy, we could try and exploit that somehow.

I just realized I never used Slavery to whip anyone. :blush: I hope I didn't miss a good opportunity. Also, I think we need to figure out how to work more of those 3 gold water tiles.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR17_100AD_Mini_Map.jpg

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR17_100AD_The_Empire.jpg

--- The Save --- (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR17_AD-0100.Civ4SavedGame)

Roster:
Arathorn
Mark1031 - Out until 16th
Vol - just played
bed_head7 - Up now!
grahamiam - on deck

I hope Chicago claims a resource (I can't really tell from the map). It seems ... counterproductive to me to found a city that doesn't claim SOMETHING that will help the whole empire. Especially as costs for founding cities continues to rise. The benefit of a city for the entire empire (in terms of what it gives resource-wise, if not cost-wise) should outweigh its support cost, at least fairly early in its life, if not right away. The center spot with two resources benefits the whole empire like that. Chicago may, too (I can't tell), but that should be considered when founding cities.

If we declare war with a boat in Gandhi's waters, it will get kicked out. Somehow, though (a bug), the AI is able to cross borders without open borders and isn't always kicked out when declaring war. Something to be aware of.

Glad we're still alive!
Arathorn

Chicago gets corn, which helps with health, though we probably need more help with happiness atm (though I don't remember seeing readily available luxes).

I have it.

150 AD (2) - Indians complete Notre Dame, and Mahavira is born in Delhi.

175 AD (3) - Math comes in, and I select Calender so that we can put a plantation on our dyes for some extra happy help. I also decide to chance it, and switch from an axeman to barracks in Philadelphia.

225 AD (5) - Another Axeman completes out of Washinton. Start on a granary, which will provide a two health boost from corn and rice.

275 AD (7) - Hmm.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR17_275AD.jpg

350 AD (10) - Whip barracks to completion in Philadelphia.

The barracks in Boston and the Lighthouse in Chicago should both also be whipped during the next player's turns.

New York is again at its unhappiness limit, but it is still working 7/8 tiles and getting a suprlus of 2fpt. Once it completes its library, drop a scientist in there in addition to the priest already there. I would suggest a granary there, too, as the two added health mean we could put a third scientist there while maintaining our size at eight, and then with dyes hooked up it can grow to nine and do the same thing.

I did not do too much with our military, and though time is not our friend in this game, I still feel it is necessary to get some basic infrastructure in our main cities so they can better handle a long period of troop buildup. Washington's granary finished, though I forgot to note it, and it should be able to just churn out units for the next few turnsets. Considering the fact that the Indians do have horses hooked up, it wouldn't be a bad idea to mix some spearmen in with the axemen every once in a while.

Chicago was founded for a variety of reasons. Let me give my explanations, and we can learn from the decision and discussion.

I believe being able to have some specialists in our cities will be very important (for the shields, research, and great people poitns). Having specialists means you need tiles that produce enough food for more than one citizen. Chicago enables this by having a Corn tile which it can work and provide surplus food to run specialists, and it provides Corn for healthiness, also increasing surplus food throughout the empire, allowing more specialists. With the hill and grassland tile, in addition to all of the coastal tiles, this should be commerically productive city soon.

Additionally, I felt it was a strategically important location. It secures that island for us, as well as the resource. Defending 3 cities on one land mass is certainly easier than defending 3 cities on 3 seperate islands. I believed that if Gandhi had settled there before us (and he hadn't founded a city in a while, and we know Bangalore is a powerhouse), it would have really cut us off from future locations.

It had some significant maintenance cost at first, but once the Corn tile is improved, it can use a bunch of those 3 gold water tiles and run a specialist or two and still be growing. I think the most recent turns in RB1 illustrate how even seemly poor locations can actually contribute if you have some surplus food and high commerce tiles.

I think the next city (if there is one for a while) should be to the southeast of Washington (northeast of Philadelphia). That is, if there are resources accessible there, I seem to remember there being something. If there's no resources at that location, then nevermind.

I still think the Silks 'n' Stone island (southwest of Bangalore) is a stretch for us, despite having the potential of extra happiness. I'd rather build MP for that happiness (and security), than extend our empire that much thinner.

I wasn't aware the corn was by Chicago. 5 food means a specialist-and-a-half there. And water is good for commerce. We need as much commerce as we can get. Ability to reinforce and defend is important, too. And silks'n'stones would've had MORE maintenance cost than Chicago, not less (because it'd be further away). It does claim something of slightly greater benefit to our nation, so I like it. I might've stretched for silks'n'stones, just because, well, it's Gandhi. He's not likely to attack and if he founded at the Chicago location, I think it'd be easier for us to assault than an island city alone. But that's just me. I do think Chicago makes sense. (I also like attacking IN to gain a city rather than out -- I don't mind a city or two of a foe's in my empire, it gives me a good first target to capture rather than raze. Again, though, that's just me.)

I would also like to see us get another city or two. I know maintenance costs are getting steep, but we're going to need size (people) and tons of commerce to catch Gandhi. And while the AI is a LOT better at naval invasions than it used to be, they're still quite hard to pull off. I'd like to see silks'n'stones founded. And I would tend to focus on naval might, not land might, for this game -- at least at this point. Just disrupting Gandhi's commerce and starving his cities will help us catch up, if we can do it in a way that doesn't lose us anything of value (like a city).

Good discussion. I'd rather see more discussion as opposed to less.

Note: Bangalore is the center of TWO religions. That would make it quite nice to capture, as well as a HUGE threat culturally to us.

Roster:
Arathorn - on deck
Mark1031 - Out until 16th
Vol - just played
bed_head7
grahamiam - Up now!

Man, this game MOVES! I swear I just played a couple days ago.

Arathorn

You know, from a purely strategic standpoint, I think I agree with your ideas on attacking in rather than out. If Gandhi had founded Chicago, it would be mucher easier to take than a city on another island. So if we found Chicago, its easier to defend, and if Gandhi founds Chicago, its easier to take. But the latter could require one less Settler.

I would also say that Bangalore and Karachi are already targets available as "attacking in", since they are on our side of the map and far from the rest of Gandhi's empire, are also reachable by land from Boston, which also a short trip from our other two (major) islands. I don't think any war to take those two cities will see any reinforcements from the Indian mainland, and if we can take two cities (one of them quite nice in Bangalore) from a Deity opponent, I'd consider that a fine first military accomplishment.

But I guess when I stop being objective and am the one doing the clicking, I didn't feel comfortable pushing to Silks 'n' Stone. I suppose I've been surprised-attacked by the AI too much in my solo games that with a Deity opponent and our paper-thin garrisons I feared the worst. The speed of Galleys (or lack there-of) and the distance to that island made it seem like a logistics, reinforcement, and maintenance nightmare. Courthouses, longbowmen, and galleons would make me quickly change my mind, however.

Also, Bangalore isn't producing any culture from its two religions if Gandhi is still Buddhist as his state religion. You only get +5 culture/turn from a holy city if it is the state religion, or you have no state religion.

I don't think we can have much success with a sea-based invasion of other Indian lands until we get Galleons. I think we should try and get 3-4 Swordsmen, 2-3 Axemen and 3-4 Catapults and go grab Boston island. That gets us Horses, Spices, and Cow, and leaves us with 3 islands and 8 cities. But if we don't focus on this as a goal, its going flounder and we'll miss an opportunity (since we'll be going up against Riflemen and Machine Guns instead of Archers, Longbowmen, and Spearmen).

Excellent discussions. :goodjob:

got it. will play and post later (after reading :) )

Preflight check: 3-4 Swords, 2-3 Axeman, 3-4 Cats. Copper in hand for the Axes, Iron is near Atlanta (under cultural threat, in process of being connected), Cats require Construction but we are currently researching Calender (4T). Ok, looks good. We can get the units while researching Construction.

There’s clams SE of Washington, sheep and Fish E, SE of Chicago.

Health is really our limiting factor atm (max 4 in many towns), so 2 more settlers for the lambs and crabs will be necessary. Bangalore has cows which would be nice as well (currently defended by 4 archers and an axeman)

IBT: Philly rax -> axe

T1: 375AD moving galleys

IBT: Philly axe -> axe

T2: 400AD whip Lighthouse in Chicago and barracks in Boston

IBT: Washington axe -> sword; Boston barracks -> axe; Chicago Lighthouse -> Lib

T3: 425AD nada

Calender -> construction (12T)
Gahdi adopts Vassalage

T4: 450AD workers are building a cottage on the grass near Philly

New York Lib -> settler

T5: 475AD

T6: 500AD All archers are now Longbows in Bangalore

IBT: Washington sword -> sword
Ghandi completes colossus

T7: 520AD Moving an Axe and Sword over to Boston

T8: 540AD ditto

T9: 560AD ditto, plantation work has begun, hire a scientist in Washington to build Great Leader points.

IBT: Washington sword -> sword

T10: 580AD Sword and Axe dropped off in Boston

T11: 600AD Moving the Axe out of Philly so it can load next turn and be ferried to Boston a little sooner.
Bangalore will be a very tough nut to crack. We probably need more than 3 or 4 cats, not sure. Sorry for the extra turn, but I though it would get us back to normal.
Dyes are connected, even though the workers are still hammering :hammer:
Promotions for all the newly build units have not been assigned. I figured Arathorn had all those promotions figured out by now ;)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v645/grahamiam/lotr17-600AD.jpg

Wow, Gandhi got some culture going there!

Fantastic work getting the military build-up going!

And hooray to this whole team for being so speedy on their turnsets! Its 600 AD already!

I we could just get Bangalore and Karachi we could hold our own on our half of the map until our next big move (whatever it may be).

I don't know, it's looking pretty bad. He even has smokestacks on his Pyramids :eek:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v645/grahamiam/lotr17-600AD-1.jpg

:lol:

Actually, Arathorn, please MM Philly from the coast to the dyes to get more money. Sorry, I forgot to do that.

Goals:
- Take Bangalore and Karachi. If we can get both, we should remove the cultural threat, so the goal has to be both. That means keeping on military builds for a while.
- Don't lose anything else. Hopefully Gandhi being Gandhi hasn't gone too nutso on military and won't wipe us off the map after we attack.
- Honestly, I'll probably just have to build up for Vol to do the actual attack, as we will need catapults badly to do the attack and we still don't (quite) have the tech for it yet.

I figured Arathorn had all those promotions figured out by now
Of course I do. ;) And what we want to do depends on the unit, how many promotions we'll have before we assault the city, the defenders, and possibly other things as well. I'll try to get 'em all sorted out and clearly marked/labeled for their role and explain WHY I did what I did. Expect to see a strength 8 unit or two in the mix, too. :)

What I'm working on and don't have ready yet is a comprehensive plan for what order to attack in to best maximize the odds of success. It's coming, though. I'm just happy to see no catapults in Bangalore, so our stack won't be in immediate danger to collateral damage. The longbows may sally out and attack, but that'd be fine by me.

As for "what next"? I dunno. One step at a time. I think some economic consolidation with courthouses and such will be our next probable step.

Roster:
Arathorn - Up now! (will get to it tonight, I think/hope)
Mark1031 - Out until 16th
Vol - on deck
bed_head7
grahamiam

Arathorn

I've spent a good amount of time playing around with spreadsheets, studying the effects of the odds and promotions after reading your article, Arathorn. So I think I can present basic competency in promotion optimization, should the assault fall to me. At the very least, I can do the math for each promotion option and choose the one with the highest success rate.

That comprehensive plan sounds like that'd be awfully useful though. :D

(0) 600 - Do the suggested micromanagement. Keep everybody/everything else the same.

(I) Atlanta gets religion…unfortunately, it’s Islam, which is, of course, controlled by the Indians.

(2) 640 (I) Construction completes. I select Code of Laws, since I want courthouses to help with the economy. Metal Casting for forges was also something I considered strongly. First catapult begun in Washington.

(5) 700 - Settler completes. I’m sending it and an axeman to silk’n’stone. Yes, it’s a huge reach spot. And it might well die in the upcoming war. But, at this level, I think we have to reach for as much as we can and hope to hold it. Time is NOT on our side.

Just building and doing workers stuff in here. Not much to do at this point, really. Washington is our only good hammer producer, so most of our military is coming from there.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR17-800ad.JPG

(10) 800 - 2 longbows and a spear, plus whatever Gandhi builds while we bombard. That’s gonna take some doing. We have two catapults complete and a few more underway. I’d wait for 4 or so of them before starting the attack. A war elephant or two would be nice, too, but I just couldn’t get any done on my turns. They're pretty expensive. Maybe after the current catapult build in Washington....

I see the attack having one main focus and a couple other diversions. The main focus will be the Bangalore/Karachi attacks. We’ll want to continue producing units and sending them to Boston to aid in this effort. The second effort/diversion will be protecting silks’n’stone, once we found it. The boat is getting close. The third is to rip up some fishing nets. I have a galley there to do that. It can also serve to attack/block reinforcements, if need be, but it’s mostly to hurt fishing boats and to distract Gandhi, while we take the two cities.

That only left one galley to shuttle things to Boston. It’s been keeping up and will need a run to Philly to get an axeman/catapult pair soon (like right after the current run -- make sure to pick up the 'pult at NY on the way to Boston). Then one more run to NY to get two more catapults (one from NY and one from Washington (which should have time to be built and move to NY)) and then I think we’ll be ready to roll -- most of the way through Vol’s turn, probably.

I did NO promotions. I think we’ll mostly want City Raider, especially on the swordsmen. If we had two promotions, that would be nice, so we could get Combat I and Cover and/or Combat I and Medic I. As it is, we’ll just have to hope things go OK. At least he doesn’t have rifles yet.

Sorry for the delay. It just didn’t work out last night.

Arathorn

Roster:
Arathorn
Mark1031 - Out until 16th
Vol - Up now!
bed_head7 - on deck
grahamiam

(0) 800 AD
OK, here's something odd. Gandhi doesn't appear to have Iron.

It seems to be outside of his borders.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR17_800AD_Lahore_Iron.jpg

And in negotiations, I can sell him Iron (as well as Corn and Dyes):
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR17_800AD_Trading_Iron.jpg
I do not make the deal, of course.

With the fourth catapult finishing on turn 5, it looks like the attack can happen on my turnset. Actually, I work a Plains Forest instead of a water tile at New York and make both Catapults finish in 4 turns. After doing that, I reassign citizens at almost every city, focusing on shields instead of growth. I feel winning the upcoming war is essential, even if it costs us a little in long term growth.

(1) 820 AD
We research Code of Laws. I select Metal Casting in 13 turns, which gets us much-needed Forges, but also puts us on the path to Crossbowmen and Caravels.

The Settler-Axemen pair debarks at Silks 'n' Stone. I send the Galley back to help with shuttling, which I foresee needing more than one Galley.

(2) 840 AD
Philadelphia completes Catapult. I start on a War Elephant in 12 turns.

We found Silks 'n' Stone. The impact on our finances is significant, we have to go down to 40% research. I start on an Axeman in 12 for some defense.

We've run out of Worker tasks on the southern island, but we don't have excess Galleys to transport them just yet.

(3) 860 AD
Archimedes is born in Delhi.

(4) 880 AD
Ananda (Great Prophet) is born in New York. This really is our first Great Person. Using him to research a technology would be a waste (especially since 124 beaker Meditation is the current option). We won't be getting a second soon, so a Golden Age is out. The Hindu Holy Shrine could be built in Washington, and would provide +4 culture/turn (of no use), +1 Great Prophet point/turn (would need 200 for another Great Person, only 276 turns left in game), and just +3 gold/turn (only 3 cities are Hindu). The final option is to join him permanently as a Super Specialist, providing +5 gold/turn and +2 shields/turn.

I decide on the latter and send him to Washington (3 turns, as we lack a road there...), where the shields can be best amplified through Bureaucracy later and Organized Religion now.

Gandhi completes the Sistene Chapel.

Washington completes Catapult. War Elephant in 5.
New York completes Catapult. Swordsman in 6.

Drop off 2 more catapults, pick up another catapult from New York and the Axeman/Catapult pair from the Southern island. In a few turns the siege will begin.

(5) 900 AD
Gandhi builds Chichen Itza. All of his cities gain +25% defense.

Chicago builds a Library. Starts on a Galley in 13, as I remember someone saying we should try and exert some naval power.

The assembled force of 3 Swordsmen, 4 Axemen and 4 Catapult move onto the hills above Bangalore.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR17_900AD_Assembled_Force.jpg
Bangalore has but 2 Longbowmen and 1 Axeman on defense (all unpromoted).

(6) 920 AD
Something happens in Bangalore that causes its city defense to jump from +75% to +125%! :eek: Must have been a Castle! It was at +50% two turns ago before Chichen Itza + Castle.

The time has come, however.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR17_920AD_Gandhi_War.jpg
The loss of Open Border hurts our trade income, and we are forced to drop research to 30%. :(

I move our troops into position and promote an Axeman with Combat I incase they send their Axeman against us.

I use our Great Prophet. I hope my decision is not controversial.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR17_920AD_Great_Prophet.jpg

(7) 940 AD
We are not attacked. Gandhi does adopt Mercantilism, though. This is a very smart AI move, since foreign trade routes are of no use to him. Gandhi also adopts Theocracy, but this will only do any good in Delhi and Bombay (the only two Buddist cities). A Horse Archer appears in Bangalore.

Boston completes a War Elephant. Starts on another in 7 turns.

D'oh! The Axeman that was being trained at Silks 'n' Stone can no longer be produced, since we lack a trade route. I pick a Warrior in 4 turns so that we have at least 2 bodies on defense.

We bombard Bangalore from +125% defense to +50% defense with the 4 Catapults. :hammer:

The odds are not in our favor with a City Raider I Swordsmen:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR17_940AD_Combat_Odds.jpg
With a 2.3% chance of winning, we'll wait for more bombardment and collateral damage. I put the new War Elephant from Boston in the stack with Combat I incase the Horse Archer attacks us.

After pillaging some fishing nets, our Galley destroys an Indian Galley with a Longbowman and Spearman aboard.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR17_940AD_Galley_Victory.jpg
And now the conclusion...

We have engaged the Borg. :borg:

(8) 960 AD
We do not get counterattacked.

Using 2 more catapults, we bring defenses down to 13%. But 6.0 vs. 7.9 (with a first strike) is still only 17.5% odds. Use a third catapult to bring defenses to 0%. This takes us to 6.0 vs. 7.2, which is 21.7% odds. Need some collateral damage now.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR17_960AD_Suicide_Catapult.jpg
Sending in a Barrage I promoted catapult is 5.0 vs. 9.0 odds, and so we end up losing the catapult. However...
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR17_960AD_Resulting_Loss.jpg

Our City Raider I Swordsman now faces 6.0 vs. 6.5 odds, a 27% chance of victory (darn that first strike). Then I remember I have a War Elephant (with Combat I). :lol: This is 8.8 vs. 8.1 odds, a 61% chance of victory. I'll take it!
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR17_960AD_War_Elephants.jpg
The Elephants are badly hurt, but the best defender has fallen. The rest should be mop up.

Here are the available options for the next battle (the best defender depends on what unit you attack with):
- City Raider I Swordsmen vs. fortified, injured, Axeman (+50% vs. Melee): 6.0 vs. 6.5 odds, 32.8% chance of victory
- City Raider I Axeman vs. injured Combat II Horse Archer: 5.0 vs. 5.4, 33.1% chance of victory

Since we have more Axemen than Swordsmen, and its slightly better odds, I send in an Axeman:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR17_960AD_Axeman_Horse_Archer.jpg
It does not go well. The Horse Archer is injured down to 4.3/6.0.

I send in the City Raider I Swordsmen vs. the Axeman now (32.8%):
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR17_960AD_Swordsman_Axeman.jpg
It does go well. We are injured down to 3.6/6.0.

Now its another City Raider I Swordsman against the injured Horse Archer. 6.0 vs. 3.9, 90.7% odds.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR17_960AD_Swordsman_Horse_Archer.jpg
We're injured down to 5.0/6.0.

The last, badly injured Longbowman is easy clean-up. I choose an Axeman over a Swordsman so that I have a City Raider II Axeman to send against the Spearman in Karachi. We win without injury.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR17_960AD_Bangalore.jpg
Bangalore is ours. It will be eight turns before it is pacified. Spices are now available to our cities. We now control the holy city of Christianity and Islam.

Galley drops off a Catapult in Bangalore to replace the fallen one.

(9) 980 AD
Washington produces War Elephant. Starts on another in 4 turns.

Promote our War Elephant to Medic I to help heal from this fight and to help with the next (also to heal the Elephant, the promotion heals it from 0.4/8.0 to 4.2/8.0).

The troops heal in preparation for the battle at Karachi, which has 3 Longbowmen and a Spearman.

I run a little deficit research with our war earnings. The alternative would be to keep the money for a unit upgrade should we get attacked somewhere our paper-thin defenses cannot hold.

(10) 1000 AD
We've survived another 1000 years! Lets survive another 500 years so I can get another set of turns!

Cai Lun (Great Engineer) is born in Bombay.

New York produces Swordsmen. He gets on the boat bound for Karachi and New York works on a Galley to help ferry all these troops.

Atlanta finishes its Barracks. Starts on a Galley as well.

The healthy units from Bangalore march with the Catapults to Karachi. The units in Bangalore are set on Fortify Until Healed, which will be 1 turn for the two Swordsmen and 2 turns for the Medic I War Elephant.

Galley with Swordsmen and War Elephant is near Boston. The other Galley was heading south to pick up Workers for Silks 'n' Stone (which is once again connected with our trade network). The Galley deep in Gandhi's water has pillaged their two developed water resources (fish) and is looking for trouble (or can come back and help ferry all these troops).

The cities are set pretty shield-heavy to produce troops. The goals going forward might change that. I'm producing Galleys and more troops under the presumption that we want to continue this war on Gandhi's own turf. If 3 Longbowmen are all thats seriously defending his cities, we should pounce on this pre-Gunpowder opportunity and see how much we can conquer. I don't know how much of it we can hold, but I think we can have some success.

Our research capabilities are worthless now anyway, we should try and do what we can with the technology we have now. Its too bad we don't have Theocracy or Vassalage to switch to, and completely turn off research.

On the Victory Conditions, Gandhi is not a threat in Domination (only has 24% of the land) or Culture (has two good cities, but third best one is worthless). Diplomatic victory is obviously not an option. So we either lose by Conquest or Space Ship, or try and win by Conquest ourselves. Please note that besides our attack force, we have a few Warriors for defense. Naval deterrent to landings is essential.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR17_1000AD_Our_Lands.jpg

--- The Save --- (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR17_AD-1000.Civ4SavedGame)

Roster:
Arathorn
Mark1031 - Out until 16th
Vol - just played
bed_head7 - Up now!
grahamiam - on deck

Congrats on taking Bangalore, now your largest city.[party]

Oh boy. This should be good. Or very very bad.

Hi,

Interesting game so far! You do better than I expected; It'll be interesting to see what Gandhi has to throw at you.

Vol, I really enjoy reading your turnlogs - very well written! :goodjob:

-Kylearan

1000 AD (0) - I am highly tempted to switch over to a granary in New York. It is well beyond its health limits (-5fpt due to unhealthiness!) and could use the 2 health boost a granary would provide. If I had any idea what to expect from Gandhi, I probably would switch it over anyway. But that galley could end up saving an undefended island, so I don't switch for the time being.

IT - Our galley in the heart of Indian lands is killed by a caravel. Not a good sign. Indians also finish Angkor Wat.

1010 AD (1) - The stack moves on Karachi.

1020 AD (2) - The now somewhat bolstered stack (elephant and sworsdman form galley) are now at the gates of the city!

1030 AD (3) - The catapults take care of over half of the Karachi's defensive bonus.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR17_1030AD.jpg

Unfortunately, the just finished a chariot in Karachi, so one more unit to deal with. Assuming all goes well, it should just be a free promotion for one of our elephants. I also decide that with a couple of galleys finishing in the next few turns, will send one of the ferrying galleys over towards India to scout out potential invaders, and if we are lucky take out the one remaining fishing net (or perhaps the Indians have already replaced one of the destroyed one. If so, another indication of clear AI improvement from Civ3 to Civ4).

1040 AD (4) - A couple more military builds finish, and though conflicted, I decide to keep on the military pathway. Our window of opportunity will close quickly, and I am not sure when, if ever, we'll have another chance if we don't cripple the Indian Empire now.

At Karachi, it takes three catapults to reduce the defense bonus to 0. The remaining catapult is sent in, and doesn't do quite as much damage as I would have hoped, but manages to retreat.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR17_1040AD_initial.jpg

With our twice promoted sword, we have an effective 6 strength against 5.7, so slightly in our favor. Send the sword in

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR17_1040AD_first.jpg

who manages the longbowmen without a problem. As it happens, the swordsman won without a scratch. However, none of our remaining units have a better matchup than 6 to 6.5, and I didn't want to risk that after the spectacular luck of the first battle. But in double checking the combat odds, I accidentally sent in a sword at a slight disadvantage...and it won too. Wow. At this point, it shouldn't be too bad. Maybe lose a unit or two.

Before the next round, I give an axeman a second city attack promotion, giving it a 5.0 to 5.7 strength matchup. The axeman is then sent into battle, and

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR17_1040AD_third.jpg

the it too wins, miraculously. Or maybe not so. I don't really have a feel yet for how to calculate the percentages from strength comparison, but from what Vol posted, it seems as though that in the second and third battles, we had between 25-33% chance at victory. With only a horse archer and a spearman remaining (I have no idea what happened to the chariot), we should be able to take Karachi completely without losses.

Well, maybe not. An unpromoted swordsmen loses to the horse archer, though we had the slight advantage. After that slight setback, the last two units are killed

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR17_1040AD_last.jpg

and Karachi is ours.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR17_1040AD_karachi.jpg

IT - An afterthought to me after all the fighting, we receive more good news.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR17_1040AD_horses.jpg

1050 AD (5) - A rather slow turn after the last one. Now I need to figure out what to do, with the short term goal of capturing that island now accomplished. Whip a galley in Atlanta, to at least partially help with logistics. Unfortunately, we are suffering a bit of war weariness, so no other whip is viable.

1060 AD (6) - Nothing, really.

1070 AD (7) - Our forward galley runs into two caravels. Unfortunately, I clicked to move two spaces ahead, and made the attack by accident. Not that the we would have had a chance on defense. But I would have been surer about them not having units aboard had the galley not immediately attacked.

1080 AD (8) - Again nothing.

1090 AD (9) - Metal Casting finishes, and after a fair amount of thought, I decide upon Currency. The extra trade routes won't be all that powerful with only intra-empire trading, but it will at the very least will boost our income by number of cities times 1gpt. Lots of builds finish as well, leaving me with lots of choices. I opt for a bit more infrastructure focus in our cities, with a spattering of galleys. Bangalore and Karachi get library builds, as a little culture and science will help both become more American and the empire as a whole.

Somewhat worrisome to me is the fact that the Indian caravels have not shown themselves yet. Just what they are up to has me a bit concerned. Though I suppose there is the possibility that with one of the caravels damaged, they went back to cities to heal or something. Actually, is it necessary still to be in a harbor to heal ships, as it was in Civ3?

1100 AD (10) - Strangely, still no sign of the Indian caravels. well, maybe that is good news. It has me a bit concerned, though. In domestic matters, Washington finishes up a galley and starts on a forge. A worker was dropped off at Silks'n'Stone last turn, and is moved over to the silks to get a plantation up and running.

Here is a pic of our empire (last few turns were rather devoid of pictures, due to the rather uneventful nature of those turns).

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR17_1100AD.jpg

Just a couple of last notes are left, I guess. No promotions were made, though in some cases the choices were rather obvious. There are also a bunch of galleys moving around in no real order. The idea was for them all to convene at Bangalore and then hopefully load up what we could and sent the war fleet into Indian lands. Uh, I guess that it is.

Oh, just for fun, I checked to see if we could get anything for peace after saving. Apparently not. Well, maybe, but I didn't bother with the cheaper techs.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR17_1100AD_gandhi.jpg

Use alt-hover instead of holding the right mouse button to get combat odds without any chance of accidental attack.

For combat probabilities, read Arathorn's article (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=137615), and then use this combat calculator. (http://c4combat.narod.ru/c4c_v0_13.htm)

We have engaged the Borg. :borg:

:lol: Awesome quote. :lol:

I hope you guys are having a blast. Looks good so far!


- Sirian

I think this game is as much a lesson in managing (or failing with) extremely shield-poor land, as it is a learning experience against Deity. But its pretty darn fun.

With Caravels out there against us, our Galleys really stand no chance. The Caravels are faster and (in combat probability) much much stronger. At 2 movement, it will take a very very long time to get our forces over to Gandhi, by which time he will likely have Gunpowder.

We've taken his cities on our side of the map, thats good stuff. Winning by Conquest is probably not possible at this point (you think?), so now its a question of how long we can hold off, and how ornery we can be, before Gandhi wins by Spaceship or Conquest himself. Knowing Gandhi, I think I can guess which one he'll choose.

Roster:
Arathorn - on deck
Mark1031 - Out until 16th
Vol
bed_head7
grahamiam - Up now!

Wow! Great successes. Two cities captured. That's very good. At this point, though, I worry that attacking more will just tick Gandhi off and put him deeper into a state of war. A bit of pillaging, though, might be good. I've had some very good luck paying for research with pillaging dollars. And it sets the opponent back. At least Gandhi will talk.

Caravels, BTW, can't carry more than a single non-combat unit, so they're not really a threat to do more than tear up fishing nets. That's an issue, of course, but not a HUGE one, necessarily. We need to keep our eyes open, but a mobile defense force (already loaded on a galley) might be very good.

BTW, in my tests this weekend, I found that my article and the combat calculator are WRONG. We were basing some thing on Solver and DeepO's articles, which are incorrect. A 5.0/6 unit is NOT as strong as a 5/5 unit. Its hps really are down and are registered that way. I'll be making corrections as soon as I can, but probably not until tomorrow or Tuesday. That has major repercussions on combats.

And attacking cities with just one suicide catapult? Wow. I always send in at least two and often 3. But I can't argue with the results! :) We got our two targetted cities. I'm worried that going for too much more will have us just losing what we've gained, but Gandhi is a notorious pacifist, so it'll just be recently built forces. Personally, I think we might well be better off making peace now and hitting him again in 10 turns -- turns that we'll have spent on military and he'll have spent on infra. But I don't know enough to say if that's a good plan or not.

I hope you guys are having a blast.

I know I am. I know we're 15-20 techs behind at least (switching to Mercantilism means Gandhi has Banking and we're just working on Currency). And those new cities will be expensive for a bit (although I hope Bangalore can pay for itself, since it's reasonably large). But I have to like our position at this point -- it's much better than I'd expected.

Arathorn

I agree on the multiple suicide catapult thing, incidentally, despite the fact that I sent in only one. It worked out alright for Vol, though, so I gave it a shot, and we did have the sword that would have odds in its favor to win the first battle, regardless of how little damage the catapult did.

As for future plans, I am somewhat inclined to at least take the bulk of our units over to India, to at least see what awaits us.

I don't fear Caravels because of their troop carrying (which is zero). I fear them because they can swoop in and kill our Galleys very easily.

Sirian made some comment in RB1 that he didn't like to suicide catapults, so I decided I'd try to be so bold.

I really like the idea of pillaging all of Gandhi's tiles.

One tip is that the AI gets NO production bonus on wonders. None. So if you can get to a tech around the same time as them, you can have a shot at the wonder. I should think that if you let him have them all, that things will start to get very rough.

- Sirian

One tip is that the AI gets NO production bonus on wonders. None. So if you can get to a tech around the same time as them, you can have a shot at the wonder. I should think that if you let him have them all, that things will start to get very rough.

- Sirian

But how viable is that option at this point? We are down more techs than I can count on my fingers, and even if a Deity AI gets no bonus, and an Industrious opponent does get a bonus on wonders, making things somewhat difficult for us.

:hammer: woot! :hammer:

i got it but not tonight.

But how viable is that option at this point? We are down more techs than I can count on my fingers, and even if a Deity AI gets no bonus, and an Industrious opponent does get a bonus on wonders, making things somewhat difficult for us.

Ironically, a water map may actually be harder in this situation.

On land, you just keep pushing militarily. You can fight one Deity opponent with reasonable odds.

:crazyeye:


- Sirian

Damn, I hate it when my grammatical or typographical errors are quoted.

Regarding a "duel" vs. a deity opponent, perhaps we ought to try pangaea if this attempt does not end in success.

I think a "Small Lakes" mirror map would be the best choice, then. And an Aggressive trait leader, since the goal of the game would obviously be Conquest, and that Combat I freebie opens up a lot of interesting specialization capabilities with all your units.

But for now, our waterlogged Gandhi duel remains intriguing. Will Gandhi seek retribution for our actions, or will he whimper to his Spaceship?

Preflight check: I take an Elephant out of Bangalore (4/2 experience -> gets Combat 1). I want to try some pillaging. Gandhi will take 70g for peace, but I’m not sure what that gets us at this point.
Health is still a big issue, and we have clams + lambs to our south, but our maintenance costs are probably becoming an issue so hold off on a settler for now (plus, I want Philly to grow)

T1: 1110AD Load galley with 2nd elephant and move it towards Madras

T2: 1120AD 2 Caravels appear NW of Bangalore, but they are empty

T3: 1130AD 2 Caravels are chasing the boat with the elephants, so I drop them off on the hill 2T east of Madras. I see a knight and a bunch of LB’s. Well, we won’t be attacking the town so, let’s see what happens.

IBT: Elephants defend vs the knight (1.9/8); lost the galley to caravel (0.8/3)
Philadelphia cat -> spear

T4: 1140AD give the defending elephant a Medic1 promotion, and it’s health jumps to 5.0 :hmm: Pillage the mine for 10g

T5: 1150AD 1 elephant still healing, the other moves to a cottage tile.

IBT: no attacks still? Boston galley -> court; Atlanta galley -> (wishing for an improvement that gives an extra food to coastal tiles :rolleyes:)

T6: 1160AD Plunder cottage for 14g

IBT: New York Granary -> duct

T7: 1170AD Switch Sticks’n’Stones to lighthouse so the plantation chop goes toward it instead of a galley. Pillage village for 20g

IBT: Washington forge -> axe (home defense)
Forest chop gives Sticks’n’Stones 55 shields

T8: 1180AD Pillage hamlet for 10g. Move Elephant to cows.

IBT: Washington axe -> spear

T9: 1190AD Pillage cow pasture for 4g, pillage cottage for 16g. Lose 2 galleys but kill 2 Caravels (one was down to 0.8 and never returned to dock to heal).

IBT: Chicago galley -> court

T10 & T11: 1210AD Crap, lost track of turns and played one extra :( Sorry!
I have the clock setup on the screen so I don't lose track of time, but now I lose track of turn! :lol:

construction due in 1T, pillaging is supporing our -gpt research, and the Indians won't attack the elephants for some odd reason.

"Got it" in that virtual sense that I see it but haven't downloaded the save yet. Will hope to do so tonight. Pillaging and potential peace are my watchwords.

Arathorn

imho, I wouldn't worry about peace. India is doing absolutely nothing, our elephants have free range. Let's just pillage India into the stone age.

I'm worried about peace when that changes. Foes don't do the same thing for the whole game in Civ4. A "passive" foe (even a Gandhi) can break out a serious can of "Where'd that come from?" if you're not careful. I'll keep my eyes open and try to make peace when I see 6 loaded galleons coming our way.

Arathorn

(0) 1210 - Go through and look at our cities. For the most part, they look very good (other than some brutal maintenance costs, which will only get worse as they grow). Bangalore is a military hotspot -- holy cow! I do a few switches to higher commerce/higher food. That includes taking Washington OFF the “Don’t Allow Growth” setting, so that it can grow into its happiness, which is reasonably high at this point.

But with a unit cost already at 24, we’re building more and more and more units??? Are we expecting to mount another non-pillaging attack? I didn’t think that was the plan. But with all these units, I’m not sure what else to do…. I’ll see how it goes.

(I) Currency comes in and I start us towards Feudalism. Longbows can’t hurt and it’s a prereq for Banking, which would allow Mercantilism (very nice) and a bit more income for us. Lots of choices, including Priesthood to allow us to build missionaries to spread Hinduism around.

(1) 1220 - Pillaging to support our deficit research. I load up a couple more elephants on galleys and start shipping them to Indian lands. If they’re going to ignore them, I’m going to pillage as long and as much as I can. With peace an option if need be, we can afford to be a bit more aggressive. I’m toying with the idea of loading up all those cats and swords in Bangalore and trying to raze a city, to help with our unit costs and to hurt Gandhi even more. But I’m leery of going that hog wild, at least at this point. I’m playing in fits and spurts, so who knows how I’ll feel when it’s time to actually play a few turns later.

(I) Boston courthouse -> market. I kind of want a forge, but it doesn’t have that many shields to multiply, being mostly water, so let’s work on its commercial aspects.

Atlanta Galley -> Forge. At 7 hammers/turn, it’s one of our best producers, as odd as that seems.

(2) 1230 - Our stealthy elephants continue to sneak around Madras, hoping to not awaken the sleeping beast hidden within… I wish I could teach more elephants how to tiptoe like this.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR17-sleeping-beast.JPG

Whoops! I curse them. The knight comes riding out and injures our southern elephant, very nearly killing it (0.4 health remaining -- the knight hit 5 times first, but it only did 19 damage and our elephant did 20).

(3) 1240 - Promote to Medic I and heal? Or just promote and continue pillaging? I promote to Medic I and start healing.

As I’m moving pillagers westward, they’re hopping off boats onto every small island in their path. I fear the Indian ships and I don’t want to lose more units than I have to. Yes, they sometimes have to spend a full turn at sea, but by getting off SW, then moving W (while the boat moves 2 west), then reboarding, the land units spend a minimum amount of time under threat of going to Davey Jones’s locker without being able to defend themselves.

(I) New knights, this time from Calcutta, charge out. And die to our northern elephant troop, which is now very injured, too. And about out of things to pillage, honestly, on that island.

(4) 1250 - No pillaging…just trying to heal, and move up new forces semi-safely.

(I) Yeah, our tech hole is reasonably large. We can’t deal with this kind of ship, nor its big brother frigate, which will be appearing soon (also requires Chemistry)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR17-Astronomy.JPG

(5) 1260 - Not too much to do while healing. Continue to tiptoe west. Bunch of galleys by Bangalore can load up and set sail next turn, if I’m so inclined. That galleon scares me significantly, though. That’s a lot of firepower, and we just can’t match it.

(I) More knights from Calcutta finish off the northern elephant. He was the most “out of things to pillage” anyway. And Gandhi comes offering 30 whole gold pieces for peace. I just can’t justify that right now. We can get that much gold in pillaging pretty easily. I just hope the price doesn’t go up when I reject him. But I do reject him.

Philly spear -> library. And a turn ago, I started Washington on a Hindu Missionary. Spreading our religion and setting up a shrine are both pretty good plans, IMO. That will help a bit with our cash flow problem.

(6) 1270 - That settler, longbow, longbow trio was sent to the two-plot plains hills island in the middle of the board. That will not be allowed on my watch. 2 swords and 4 catapults sally forth from Bangalore to take care of such nonsense…and hopefully help us in our peace negotiations. Was able to pillage a town for 20 gold again this turn, almost all of what Gandhi was willing to pay.

(I) Hyberabad founded. Instant 25% defensive bonus. How handy for a deity foe. Guess those catapults will have their work cut out for them!

(7) 1280 - Axeman and war elephant also embark for the middle of the board. Swords and ‘pults start disembarking. Will bombard first and then found, I suppose. Not sure if I’ll get to attack on my turns or not.

I pillage for another 35 gold. And drop off an elephant on their ivory. Then our galley sees a caravel with its name on it and boldly flees! A knight will attack that elephant this interterm, probably, but it should help the southern pillagers have peace a bit longer AND might even win to pillage the ivory, causing a happiness hit. Better shot on land than at sea, anyway.

(I) Guess I was wrong. Northern elephant is left alone. But he’s kind of stuck where he is, without ship help (or razing Calcutta all on his own, which is a long shot at best!).

(8) 1290 - 14 more gold from pillaging. And that includes cutting a road from the horses, which may help with our knight problem. Hyberabad’s defense bombarded down to 10% by our noble catapults. Will that be enough to go in next turn? I dunno. Fortune favors the bold, but only the bold who are prepared, too.

And, whoa! Somehow it’s 1300. I don’t know where I missed a turn in there, but…. I did. As tempting as it is to play 14 “to get us back on track”, I’m going to stop after 9 and let someone else have the glory (or ignominy) of attacking Hyberabad. I highly recommend razing. It’s just not worth the hit to our treasury to keep. I’d also suicide two (or even three) catapults in before sending in the swords. It’s on a hill, too, which adds to the defense of the longbows. And those highly-promoted swords are valuable. I’d bombard once or twice and then attack with the rest of the ’pults, then the swords, with axemen a back-up, if necessary. Just my $.02, though.

The front:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR17-1300ad.JPG

The galley nearest Boston was headed to Washington to get the Hindu Missionary and spread the faith a bit. Not sure exactly where at this point, but Hyberabad and Silks’n’Stones both are semi-reasonable targets. Of course, we’re almost as Islamic as we are Hindi at this point, so maybe it’s not worth trying to spread Hinduism further. We have the Islamic holy city, too. <Shrug> I was just trying to find ways to help our sagging economy (losing gold at 40% science).

Roster:
Arathorn
Mark1031 - Out until 16th (will slot back in when notified of return)
Vol - Up now!
bed_head7 - on deck
grahamiam

Arathorn

lurking:
just wanted to tell you guys you are doing a great job and it's really exciting to lurk this thread :goodjob:

I am wondering whether you will be able to slow Ghandi down to avoid an AC loss

Whoops! I curse them. The knight comes riding out and injures our southern elephant, very nearly killing it (0.4 health remaining -- the knight hit 5 times first, but it only did 19 damage and our elephant did 20).


It seems that this indicates a major AI stupidity. They only consider the base strength, not the true combat odds, so they send out knight rather than pikeman to fight elephant. A same kind of thing is that they attack quechua using archer. It may be possible to seriously exploit this. At least one moral: use your highest strength unit to deter their attack (cavalry vs. rifleman?), or use your lower strength but higher odds unit to lure their attack (elephant vs. knight, quechua vs. archer, immortal vs. longbow, axeman vs. sword, crossbow vs. mace?).

Completely off-topic, but how do you make those nice little signs Arathorn? Have seen them in a few other screenies, but after scouring the manual, I still couldn't find how to do it.

@Tarkeel: zoom all the way out, then the leftmost button on the screen changes to look like a circle with 4 orange squares. Click on that button and you get drawing and text tools.

Got it, but going to play LK110 first. Still hope to finish both tonight.

Arathorn, fantastic turnlog, analysis and plans. I hope to continue your keen execution.

Alas, I spoke prematurely. :blush:

Arathorn, I cannot find the save in the post nor in the uploads folder.

If Mark1031 comes back and wants his turn, definitely let him have it. Otherwise I'll have to play this tomorrow night (darn, I was excited to smash Hyderabad!) :(

Darn. I don't have class until 2pm tomorrow, so I was looking forward to a nice late night session. Oh well.

Aarggh! I must not have attached it. I will do so after work, provided I remember once I get home. Mea culpa.

Arathorn

Save file....

I hate being an idiot.

Sorry for the delay.

Arathorn

Roster:
Arathorn
Mark1031 - Up now! (if he claims in 4 hours)
Vol - on deck (or up if Mark1031 doesn't claim)
bed_head7 - has to wait
grahamiam

We'll let Mark1031 go if he's back. I've not seen him in this thread, so I dunno. If he doesn't claim in a few hours, Vol, go ahead, and we'll slot Mark1031 in after Vol.

Arathorn

I'm back and can take it for tomorrow night or the weekend so if Vol wants to switch go ahead. Very nice job guys. I don't see how we catch up in tech if we can't beat them out of Ghandi. We seem to be doing as well as can be expected for what we started with but with Ghandi getting all the wonders we are in no position to catch up. I haven';t looked at the game but I think we will have to raise a major city of his soon. Hyberabad is just small change but doesn't hurt him. Maybe make peace for 10 turns and then come back at him. If we suicide lots of pults maybe we can take out one of his main cities. he seems to be pretty passive on the counter attack of stacks.

OK, I'll play it tonight so Mark1031 can play it tomorrow night.

(0) 1300 AD
Wow, 1300 AD and we don't have Alphabet or Archery, and Gandhi won't give either of those ancient techs to us for peace despite having captured two of cities and razed countless tiles. :crazyeye:

The empire looks just about as good as it can (except for two 1/0/3 water tiles being worked at Bangalore instead of two 2/0/4 villages). We really lack tiles with more than 2 food in some of our cities (Boston, Atlanta, Philadelphia, Silks 'n' Stones), which really limits what we can do with working high-shield/low-food tiles and creating specialists.

We're very strongly focused on infrastructure, and specifically economy and research, and rightfully so. The military we have now is all we'll have for quite a while, so lets make the best use of it that we can. :hammer:

Spaceship and Histographic seem to be the only victory conditions to fear for now (I don't believe Gandhi will ever execute a Conquest victory, ridiculously overwhelming forces or not).

As a whole, this war has been very good for us. In the demographics graphs, we have gained significant relative Score, Gold, Production, Food, and Power since taking on the Deity Gandhi. We are now tied with Gandhi in Production! If this is ever an example of the AI using too many cottages!
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR17_1300AD_Demographics.jpg
The Deity AI, on an identical map (mirror), has 435% of our commerce and 310% of our population, but has the same amount of production, and only twice the military. If human ingenuity and tactics could overcome a force twice as large, and technologically superior, I think a Small Lakes Mirror Deity Duel would not be impossible to win.

(1) 1310 AD
Our Elephant north of Calcutta, and trapped, is attacked by two Knights. It defeats the first one easily, but is defeated by the second Knight, after doing significant damage to it.

Karachi finishes a Library. It starts on a Market in 30 turns.

Our force at Hyderabad:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR17_1310AD_Hyderabad_Force.jpg
The catapults are only able to take out 4% of the defenses each, so we're going to wait until next turn before mounting the assault.

(2) 1320 AD
New York builds an Aqueduct. I use the extra food (and since we're still at the happiness limit) to make a Scientist instead of working a 2/0/3 ocean tile. The end result is the same, except we get +3 Great People points per turn and don't have unhappy citizens. The city upkeep is 6 gold/turn, and the income in 12 gold/turn. With a Courthouse saving us 50% of the upkeep, and the Market providing 25% of the income, they both provide 3 gold per turn. But the Courthouse is much quicker (being Organized), 9 turns vs. 21 turns.

The defenses of Hyderabad:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR17_1320AD_Hyderabad_Defense.jpg

With Hyderabad now having no defensive bonuses to bombard, its time to attack:
I promote our 5 XP Catapult to Barrage II (total of +50% collateral damage).

This catapult faces steep odds:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR17_1320AD_Catapult_Odds.jpg

Heading in bravely, it retreats... bravely!
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR17_1320AD_Catapult_Retreat.jpg
The three defenders are down to 5.4/6.0, 4.6/6.0, and 5.4/6.0, and our catapult gains 1 XP.

The odds are now 5.0 vs. 11.3, as I send in a Barrage I catapult on a sure suicide mission (I don't expect two retreats).
Our catapult is soundly defeated, however the enemies are now down to 4.8/6.0, 4.0/6.0, and 3.8/6.0.

I decide to send in the Combat I Catapult in next, as it has the slightly better odds of 5.5 vs. 9.3. It is also defeated. The defenders are now at 4.3/6.0, 2.2/6.0, and 3.3/6.0.

The last catapult is promoted up to Barrage I and sent in with odds of 5.0 vs. 6.9, and is also defeated. The final defender strengths:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR17_1320AD_After_Suicide.jpg
This should be easy clean-up.

Our City Raider III Swordsmen faces up against the City Garrison I Crossbowman (who also gets +50% vs. Melee) with 6.0 vs. 3.7 odds.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR17_1320AD_Crossbowman.jpg
Victory is ours.

The City Raider II Swordsmen is the next best battle, facing 6.0 vs. 3.9 against a City Garrison II Longbowman. Victory is had (too a bit more damage than expected, down to 3.1/6.0).

A Combat I Elephant is sent in to finish off the job at 8.8 vs. 4.8 against the City Garrison I Longbowman.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR17_1320AD_Victory.jpg
The Elephant wins flawlessly and auto-razes Hyderabad.

At this point we still have four catapults. They are just about completely impotent, but as we just demonstrated, they are not completely worthless. We have some nicely promoted Swordsmen and Elephants, which probably didn't need as much softening of the defenses as we used at Hyderabad.

I decide to load up the Galleys in the next few turns and see if we can't also smash Calcutta, the most lightly defended city we can easily access.

Gandhi refuses to offer any concessions for peace. His best deal is now even peace. I'm not sure if this is a trend (it probably is), but this war has been surprisingly in our favor economically and militarily to stop just yet. We're still not seeing Gunpowder units, and that will truly be the end of any military hopes for us, so I want to keep the possibility open until that point.

(3) 1330 AD
I pillage the Horse Pasture at Madras for 7 gold.

I promote the Hyderabad Elephant to Medic to help heal the Catapult and Swordsmen.

(4) 1340 AD
I pillage a Village at Lahore for 15 gold, marking the last pillagable tile on that island.

Socrates (Great Scientist) is born at New York. The options are joining a city (+1 shield, +6 beaker), discovering Compass (would take us 9 turns and 624 beakers to research), and creating an Academy (+4 culture, +50% science). The latter is clearly the best choice. New York produces the most science in our empire (New York - 13, Karachi - 8, Washington - 7), mainly due to its two Scientist specialists (Karachi has one Scientist to prevent growth). 50% of 13 will be at least +6 per turn, and more in the future, so it is better than joining as a Super Specialist.

Thus, we build an Academy in New York. :D

War Weariness has reached 2 unhappiness per city. :(

Our force sets sail, and I cross my fingers with hopes of avoiding Galleons.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR17_1340AD_Setting_Sail.jpg

(5) 1350 AD
We learn Feudalism and enter the Medieval Age. I decide Meditation in 2 turns would be nice for Monasteries (and thus missionaries), and just to get it out of the way quickly.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LotR17_1350AD_Research.jpg
We could now revolt to Serfdom (+50% workers), but we don't have many worker tasks to do as is.

I use our Hindu missionary to spread Hinduism to Bangalore.

Gandhi seems to take no notice of our seaborne attack force in his waters. :mischief:

(6) 1360 AD
A Galleon drops off two Longbowmen and a Settler on the ruins of Hyderabad, and ends its turn adjacent to one of our Galleys. Five of our Galleys drop off two units each on the hill south of Calcutta. The lone Galley that's behind ( and threatened by the Galleon), with two Catapults aboard, drops them off temporarily on the hill two tiles west of Madras.

Washington completes a Market. Now here's a weird one: the Parthenon has not been built. :crazyeye: I figure Gandhi must have gotten Chemistry (which obsoletes it) before starting it or something. It would take 19 turns in Washington without Marble, and would provide +50% Great People birth rate in all our cities. I decide on one of our really cheap Courthouses in 4 turns instead.

Chicago builds its Courthouse. Market in 38 or Forge in 30? Since this city is already short on health, I choose the Market.

(7) 1370 AD
Yeah, Gandhi just doesn't get warfare. He doesn't attack our stack with either catapult nearby. He sends one Knight, which is defeated by our War Elephant. And his Galleon (empty) heads towards our island of Boston/Bangalore/Karachi, instead of killing one of our six vulnerabl