Civilization's 4 - Realism Mod
by jaynus

Version 0.6-BETA (Updated November 9th)
(Changelog *and* TODO list at the bottom of this post)

Download HERE (http://www.0x90.org/jaynus/CIV4_Realism_v0.6.zip)

Goal: To make an expanded and more realistic modification to civ4, allowing for longer games, longer wars, and more intense gameplay with a bit higher difficulty and learning curve to properly manage and compete in the game. Emulate issues of a large empire, supply lines, and strategic needs of different units and types.


Aknowledgements:
All the guys @ civ fanatics bouncing ideas back and forth :)
Toft @ CivFanatics for the gamespeed suggestions and discussions
CdGGabmit @ CivFanatics also for gamespeed and increment changes
dearmad @ Apolyton & CivFanatics for a nice mod that kind does the same thing but im a nutbar!
Roma Victa @ CivFanatics for saving me with a copy of a xml file AND noticing the commerce increments
Gerikes @ CivFanatics for the nifty options menu modifications
Mr. Will @ CivFanatics for the amazing idea of producing unit-building resources
Simetrical @ CivFanatics for very insightful suggestions and offer to help, im going to take you up on that!
SlayerofDeitys @ CivFanatics for schooling me on submarines ;)
Annnd JDexter, ejdacanay, Kolson, Gufnork, Youri, Kerian, Hemperor & goatmaster @ CivFanatics for all the input!


Notes:This version has had all other gamespeeds removed now that its a Mod. Im not sure how that effects saved games though, sorry guys :( We'll find out! Yay Testing!

If you had a previous version of this mod: Either follow the oldschol installation instructions, or, if you wish to install as a mod, then you must first delete *all* realism modifications in teh customAssets folder. This can be as simple as deleting the 'Xml' folder inside of CustomAssets, unless you have other mods installed as well.

Installation:
Unzip the folder to your 'Mods' folder within your game directory. As in, extract the zip file to
C:\Program Files\Sid Meier's Civilization 4\Mods
After you have done this, start the game. At the main menu go to
Advanced -> Load a Mod
In this menu, Select 'Realism'. The game will require a restart, once this is complete, start a new game and your off!

If you want the mod to load by default, you need to modify your Civ4Config. This is located in your
My Documents\My Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 4\CivilizationIV.ini
You must change this:
Mod = 0
to this:
Mod = Mods\Realism

OldSchool Installation (If you want to keep saved games I guess?):
Copy everything inside the 'Assets' folder into the CustomAssets folder
(My Documents\My Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 4\CustomAssets)

Read the changelog to see the changes I've made so far.

If you want to help me out with this or think its interesting at least, hit me up at jaynus@gmail.com, Id really like to get a real project going with a few other people.


- jaynus
jaynus@gmail.com

P.S. Please people! Post any ideas or crticisms you have, I'd love to hear them all. No matter how small they are.

ANYONE HAVING SAVED GAME LOADING ISSUES
Heres the deal. There are some bugs with mod loading, customAssets, and saved games. Here are my recommendations:

#1. If your running another mod in customAssets besides mine, let me know what it is. If some are common, I will include them.

#2. some mods dont mix well. We all edit the same files, and my mod specifically is a major overhaul of nearly every single XML file there is. So, first things first; If your getting errors, backup your customAssets folder, and then delete it (dont worry, civ4 will re-create it empty).

#3. Next, if that doesnt work, delete your Civ4 Cache folder.

#4. NEXT, if that doesnt work, again make sure you have no other mods in customAssets :p If you are using the 'Load mod' option every single time you load the game, edit your Civ4 ini file (My Documents\My Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 4\CivilizationIV.ini). Replace this line:
Mod = 0
with this line:
Mod = Mods\Realism

if *NONE* of the above works, post here and I we can get together and work it out here, on aim, or via email.


Major Status Notes:

- Expendable resources have been introduced, but are not yet implemented in the game.
- Producable & Tradable production resources have been introduced, and are implemented on musketman & muskets only
- Natural disasters have been introduced, but not yet completed or implemented
- More units coming!



Changelog:
v0.6

- Thanks dearmad for some more changes
- Universal Suffrage now gives +25% War Weariness
- pacifism now gives +125% great person rate
- organized realigion now gives +20% culture
- Theocracy now gives +10% Unit speed build.
- Caste system now gives +1 free specialist
- Cannon now requires gunpowder (not steel)
- Dry Docks with engineering (not steel)
- Maceman (and samauri) now avialable with fuedilism + metal casting (not machinery)
- Knights (and camelarcher and consquistidor) now avialable with civil service (not guilds)
- Pikeman now at civil service
- Removed riflemans (and redcoats) +25% vs. cavalry bonus (a bonus against a moving target, wtf?!)
- Rifleman now has 16 combat strength
- Redcoat now has 17 combat strength
- Redcoat got +1 moves (they were extremely discaplined, and better marching skills seems appropriate)

- All gun units below rifleman got +50% vs melee
- All Gun units rifleman and higher got +150% vs melee
- All tank units got +250% vs. melee & + 250% vs mounted

- Musketman (and musketeer) got +30% defense vs. knights (knights killing musketman every first try is just stupid)

- Castle cost reduced to 80 ( was 100)
- Forge cost reduced to 100 (was 120)

- No City Razing defaulted to true. I dont like this option. You should be forced to deal with a capture.



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v0.5

- ICBM now *PROPERLY* requires Oil as well as uranium
- Nuclear Carrier now has a more presentable pedia entry
- 'Musket Factory' renamed 'Gunsmith'

- Lag issue fixed

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v0.4

- Got game working in the 'Mod' directory, as a loadable mod
- Because this is a working mod instead of a gamewide change, removed all other gamespeeds for the mod


- Framework for natural disasters has begun to be implemented. This will not effect gameplay right now.
- Next version will contain a way to turn this on and off at your leisure
- Framework for expendable resources has begun to be implemented on the Musketman only, though it is not operational yet and should not effect gameplay

- Musketman now uses 'Muskets' built at a 'Musket Factory'
- NOTE: The above is being tested still before it is implemented in all other units. Welcome to the world of betas!

- All Technologies in ren, ind, modern, and future era increased by 25% cost across the board
- Future Tech removed to make way for *real* future techs
- 'Nuclear Reactor' should show up in its own place on the tech tree now
- 'Nuclear Reactor' Pre-reqs were broken. THey are now fixed. Yipee.

- Navy Seals can now board Submarines and Nuclear Submarines

- 'Nuclear Carrier' Added
- Requires 'Nuclear Reactor' Tech now in addition to Flight
- Requires Uranium
- Costs 200
- Has Carriers standard of 5 moves
- Has 17 Combat instead of 16
- Has a Cargo Space of 8

- Axemen now have an innate +25% in woods & jungles as well as +25% vs. swordsmans
- Swordsman melee bonus is being reduced to +25% as well as +15% defense bonus vs. Archers
- Tanks, Panzers receive +1 Movement (3 instead of 2)
- Modern Armor, Mechanized Infantry gained +2 Movement (4 instead of 2)
- 'Nuclear Submarine' now *reallY* requires 'Nuclear Reactor' tech
- Nuclear Submarines now have 28 combat strength instead of 26
- Carrier now has a cargo capacity of 5 (instead of 3)
- Carrier can now upgrade to 'Nuclear Carrier'

- Nuclear Reactor tech, Musket bonus, and Musket Factory should have relivent pedia text now, only in english

- Free Speech now gives 25% War Weariness


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v0.3

- Settler cost Lowered again by 45% (now only a 25% raise from vanilla)
- Lowered research to 225%
- Lowered Construction to 125%
- Fixed 'Realistic' speed culture thresholds

- Changed Research/Gold/Lux percantage increments to 5, Thanks Roma Victa
- Hill defense modifier upped to 30% (was 25%)
- Heal rate of units in enemy territory dropped to 5 (was 10)
- Building destruction from Nuclear weapons raised to 70% chance (was 30%)
- Global Warming probability from nuclear weapons dropped to 0% for now until massive testing of this effect (Nuke away!!!)
- Base plunder for cities raised to 100 gold, and +50 gold per population. Plundering is now more lucrative

- You can now build scotland Yard with nationalism, not communism
- Spys can now be built from scotland yard with nationalism, not communism

- Submarines can now upgrade to 'Nuclear Submarine'

- ICBM Triple requirement didnt work, removed it

- 'Nuclear Submarine' Added
- Same tech requirements as Submarine
- Requires Uranium *only*
- Costs 190 (Instead of 150 of a regular sub)
- Requires 'Nuclear Reactor' Tech now in addition (now requiring fission, combustion, and radio)
- Receives 9 power (INstead of 8 of Submarine)
- Now has a Capacity of 3 Cargo (Instead of 1)
- Now has a 70% chance of withdrawl (Instead of 50%)
- Now has 9 Moves (Instead of 7), is a +2 bonus from submarines

- Added Technology 'Nuclear Reactor'
- Requires Computers, Fission, and Refrigeration
- Required by NUclear units, and Nuclear reactor
- Costs 3500 points
- NOTE: Needs a quote, civolopedia icon & description, positioning, and translations.
- GRID LOCATIONS NOT SET
- Uses Fission Presets
- NOTE: Does not show up in civolopedia


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v0.2

- Settler cost Raised another 25% (Total raise of 75% from vanilla)

- Lowered Inflation to 10% and offset to -220 to compensate for no money in ancient era and expansion
- Raised research to 275% to slow down things just a little bit more with the new year increments
- Raised barbarian encounters to 210%, they were too plentiful
- Lowered BuildPercent to 80%
- Raised growthPercent to 200% to slow down city growth a little more

- Removed Uranium requirement from the following units to add realism of oil requirements
- Transport
- Destroyer
- Battleship
- ICBM now requires Uranium, Aluminum, *AND* Oil

- Galley, Caravel, Galleon, Frigate +2 movement each
- Battleship +1 Movement
- Submarine -1 Movement (subs dont travel at 30knots submerged)
- Chariot, Egyptian War Chariot, Persian Immortal, Knight, Spanish Conquistador,
Russian Cossak got +1 Movement
- Horse Archer, Mongolian Keshik, Arabian Camel Archer got +2 movement


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v0.1

- Added GameSpeed 'Realistic', copy of 'Epic' GameSpeed
- Doubled the amount of turns in a game
- Changed Turn increments to increments posted by Toft
- Raised reasearch to 250
- Lowered Building & Training to 100

- Fission now reveals Uranium
- Wineries can now be built at Pottery (Was Monarchy)
- Cottages not avialable until Monarchy (Was Pottery)
- Railroads buildtime increased by 300%

- Raised Settler cost by 50%
- Raised Worker cost by 50%
- Thanks to CdGGambit for these changes I liked and didnt think of
- Swordsmen and Praetorian gain +50% vs. melee and cost 10 more hammers (50)
- Axemen cost 5 hammers less (30)
- Macemen cost 20 hammers less (50)
- Frigate enabled at gunpowder
- Machine Gunner enabled at Assembly Line
- Crossbowman reduced by 10 hammers (50)

- Added CultureInfo entires for gamespeed 'Realistic', copying Epic's values for culture increments (To avoid culture bomb)
- Added text for 'Realistic' Gamespeed select ::NOTE:: English Only changed
- Added text for 'Realistic' gamespeed slect ::NOTE:: English Only changed

URL doesn't work...

Swear to god it does!! Hehe. Sorry. Its a distributed server, it may need a minute or two to distribute. Its working from my home machine and work right now, so it *should* be working if you retry.

Let me know if its not and I will yell at the hoster.

-jaynus

Nice work, looks like you put a bit more work into it than I did in my Dynastic mod. :p

Not Found

The requested URL /jaynus/CIV4_Realism.zip was not found on this server.

see, it doesn't work, again

oh, it just worked... strange... well, I have it now :D

Sorry!! Hehe. Glad it works now :goodjob:

Im going to yell at him anyways, its usual instant. The price of using a friend instead of paying eh? :crazyeye:

Transport/Battleship/Destroyer requirement for Uranium was only an alternate for Oil. By removing Uranium you REQUIRE Oil to produce those ships.

That was the idea :)

Sorry, I suppose I wasn't clear enough on the changelog. I was just stating 'requirements' because they are all in the prereq section. My bad, I'll change it to make it clearer :blush:

EDIT: Oh and as a side note, im thinking about adding a 'Nuclear Reactor' tech that would enable uranium as an alternate, as well as moving the "Nuclear powerplant' to this tech, and creating a new sub and carrier units, 'Carrier' and 'Nuclear Carrier', as well as 'Submarine', and 'Nuclear Submarine', both having significant movement bonuses, while the 'nuclear carrier' would have a size bonus, based on the fact nuclear power enabled ships to get..well...bigger.

About removing the ability to make ships with uranium if you have no oil: How is that more realistic? Looking at the wikipedia article on "nuclear marine propulsion" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_marine_propulsion), it sounds like the engines are fully nuclear-powered, and they don't need oil to run.

Im glad you guys are paying attention and giving input :)

Its moving into the idea that when you get the ability to build submarines, you may/may not know nuclear power yet (the idea of a 'Nuclear Reactor' tech), so instantly being able to produce a nuclear powered submarine (a *better*, more versatile and highly advanced type of submarine) just because you have that resource instead seems unrealistic.

Ex: WW2, the war would have gone much differently if there were major oil shortages, and the military would have to decide on how to distribute its oil properly. The idea being, oil was *THE* commidity, and they were just beginning to understand nuclear power, so the idea that they could use a nuclear powered submarine in the event of an oil shortage at that moment seems incorrect.

Rather, *new* units should be made for these power types, and given the appropriate advantages of using this power type. Examples:

Nuclear-Powered Submarine - This type of ship is much quieter than its grandfather submarine (thus stealthier), allowed to stay 'at sea' for longer periods of time, and allowed to be larger and travel at deeper depths because of the power supplies avialable with nuclear power vs. oil power

Nuclear-Powered Carrier - This variant of carrier (although both are large), enabled carriers to get even larger, carry more aircraft, and travel at higher consistant speeds.

It seemed appropriate to make these differences between these 2 types of ships apparent, #1. for the lack of variaty in the Modern and future unit trees, as well as making the game fairly more resource based.

Did that all make sense? Im just vocalizing my thoughts here...let me know what you think :)


EDIT: Sorry for the edits haha. Heres what I was thinking, input please?


- All Submarines now have a +30% attack bonus against transports and lower-tech ships
- 'Nuclear-Powered Submarine' Added
- Same tech requirements as Submarine
- Requires Uranium *only*
- Costs 190 (Instead of 150 of a regular sub)
- Requires 'Fission' Tech now in addtion (now requiring fission, combustion, and radio)
- Receives 9 power (INstead of 8 of Submarine)
- Now has a Capacity of 3 Cargo (Instead of 1)
- Now has a 70% chance of withdrawl (Instead of 50%)
- Now has 9 Moves (Instead of 7), is a +2 bonus from submarines

hmm, koo koo, maybe u could work on religon stuff (lol foreal) also for the game speed, can you code it to make a new game speed?

Regarding the "need oil or uranium for ships" issue:
Consider that even without a certain resource (like oil or bronce) a civ can invent OTHER things (like fission engines or iron working) in reality. You do not need to know what oil is to build a fission engine! Sure, it's a more advanced technique, but a nation that never had oil but was full of uranium would at some point have constructed powerplants and engines using their powerfull resource. The example with bronce and iron are just another example - stuff like this did happen in the earth's history! Not every region/continent has all resources and only through globalization it is possible for everyone to get everything (in theory at least).

I really don't see why you shouldn't be able to build nuclear submarines (with Fission as a tech prereq. of course) without oil.

Mod Installaion (Untested): Just so you all know, I don't know if this works by adding it to a mod folder. Pasting it into custom assets will work fine, but I have not quite been able to get the Mod folder working. If you want to try a mod folder, just create one in your Civ4\Mods directory named 'Realism' and paste all this in there.

Mods need to be loaded using the options.

From the main menu --> advanced --> load a mod.

This will require you to restart a game. You can load save games using mods, but if you start the unmodded game you'll also have to restart the game (the save game loads automatically after restart).

I'm pretty sure there's an option to load mods by default, but using the custom assets seems to be the easiest way.

As far as adding realism regarding different resources, maybe trying to make it so that you can only build so many units at a time with 1 resource. So if you want to have 4 cities building submarines maybe you need 2 different oil resources. Adds the realism that there could be oil shortages, but not necessarily have all of your oil cut off.

You realize of course that you made Axemen completly pointless and you might as well remove them from the game? Most likely caused romans to win every game they play as well.

Horsie speed might make them a bit too powerful when it comes to pillaging. You can't expect one to patrol every single square of your territory. But if you decide to keep the changes, you might want to up the speed of vehicles as well, they shouldn't be outrun by horses.

I've personally changed tech costs so that the first techs a cheaper, then the cost increases by 25% units each era (so modern tech costs 125% more than ancient tech). This is the only thing so far that has made research speeds seem balanced for me.

I am curious as to why you decided to increase the cost of settlers by 75%, I personally find the most tedious part of the game is waiting to build settlers early on.. seems to take forever!

I was thinking it would be cool to have the cost of settlers affected by the culture of the city producing them (if this was posible) If a city has high culture, it is less likely people would want to leave, thereby increasing the cost of settlers to emulate 'convincing' them to go. On the other hand, if a city is boring and is lacking in culture, its far more likely that people would want to find somewhere else to live.

Hey guys! :)

Thanks a ton for *all* the feedback, I appriciate it all *ALOT*. I really want to get this off the ground into a cool playable mod, and I would still love any help people can offer.

Im going to go through these posts with quotes one by one :)

Originally Posted by JDexter
Regarding the "need oil or uranium for ships" issue:
Consider that even without a certain resource (like oil or bronce) a civ can invent OTHER things (like fission engines or iron working) in reality. You do not need to know what oil is to build a fission engine! Sure, it's a more advanced technique, but a nation that never had oil but was full of uranium would at some point have constructed powerplants and engines using their powerfull resource. The example with bronce and iron are just another example - stuff like this did happen in the earth's history! Not every region/continent has all resources and only through globalization it is possible for everyone to get everything (in theory at least).

I really don't see why you shouldn't be able to build nuclear submarines (with Fission as a tech prereq. of course) without oil.
I totally understand where you are coming from now. In this latest version I added my nuclear submarines. This was more to play around with adding units but I liked the idea alot; however, I concede to your points :P I hadn't looked at it from that perspective. Heres how I am thinking of it now: I will leave the new nuclear-powered units with their requirements (no oil needed for them), and leave them slightly more powerful; Thus, a civ without oil can still produce them just fine, but has to wait a little longer for them (because the technology *is* much more complicated and requiring than combustion). What do you think?


Originally Posted by ejdacanay
hmm, koo koo, maybe u could work on religon stuff (lol foreal) also for the game speed, can you code it to make a new game speed? Im working on it :)


Youri - I couldnt get that to work :( It didn't seem to be loading my settings, and I have heard of bugs with saved games with the mod folder. I am just not going to approach it yet until someone figures it out :(


Originally Posted by Kolson
As far as adding realism regarding different resources, maybe trying to make it so that you can only build so many units at a time with 1 resource. So if you want to have 4 cities building submarines maybe you need 2 different oil resources. Adds the realism that there could be oil shortages, but not necessarily have all of your oil cut off.
You read my mind!!! I have been looking into the scripting a bit for this, and have not quite figured out how to do it yet; But it is *definitely* a major goal of mine. I will definitely need help in this respect though, because the map generators would need to be modified as well. But its definitely a goal! I want to get this aspect done asap, just a matter of learning it really; And of course, if people are going to actually play this thing enough to invest the time in it!

Originally Posted by Gufnork
You realize of course that you made Axemen completly pointless and you might as well remove them from the game? Most likely caused romans to win every game they play as well.

Horsie speed might make them a bit too powerful when it comes to pillaging. You can't expect one to patrol every single square of your territory. But if you decide to keep the changes, you might want to up the speed of vehicles as well, they shouldn't be outrun by horses.

I've personally changed tech costs so that the first techs a cheaper, then the cost increases by 25% units each era (so modern tech costs 125% more than ancient tech). This is the only thing so far that has made research speeds seem balanced for me.
#1. Axemen - Yah, I do realize I made them rather mediocre in comparision now. As far as the roman issue, I was attempting to give them a bit more of an advantage with their preatorians than they already had; Yah, giving them a bit of a leg up. But in my testing I havn't ran into issues with it yet...As far as the axemen; I didnt realize that until I played hehe. I think im going to give them a innate terrian bonuses in woods and jungles. It seems appropriate to the unit type, they are a shock infantry.
#2. Horsie speeds - Yah I didnt get around to upping vehicle speeds yet; That was my bad. But after this weekends testing, you are correct. Pillaging gets a bit more irritating. It seems managable though, I am debating on keeping this or not (Movement penalties in enemy terrorities mitigates this issue mostly; It makes them a fast-response force for a defender instead of a fast-strike force. I liked that..)
#3 I am going to be implementing that this afternoon, now that i've seen how it progresses a few times :)


Originally Posted by Kerian
I am curious as to why you decided to increase the cost of settlers by 75%, I personally find the most tedious part of the game is waiting to build settlers early on.. seems to take forever!

I was thinking it would be cool to have the cost of settlers affected by the culture of the city producing them (if this was posible) If a city has high culture, it is less likely people would want to leave, thereby increasing the cost of settlers to emulate 'convincing' them to go. On the other hand, if a city is boring and is lacking in culture, its far more likely that people would want to find somewhere else to live.
The cost for settlers is really mitigated with how many more turns their are now (which I may increase a bit more). It seems longer, but I ran into serious expansion and AI issues with having settlers produce normal speeds; The AI seemed to be able to expand better than a human player, and I wanted to make that more fair.

Anyways, I got through all that guys :) Im working on posting another update in a few hours; This is what I tested with this weekend. Thanks again for all the feedback :)

Any chance you could add random events to your mod? Like natural disasters?

As well as more resources?

Yup! Im working on it, thats all part of my 'expendable resources' research im doing. Once I get the hang of it, I hope to add all this. Let me make a TODO list on the thread and add that to it :)

Youri - I couldnt get that to work :( It didn't seem to be loading my settings, and I have heard of bugs with saved games with the mod folder. I am just not going to approach it yet until someone figures it out :(

I've just tested it, and it worked fine for me. :) No problems loading saved games either.

To make it work:

1. Create a new folder in your 'Mods' folder, and name it 'Realism'
2. Put the Realism.ini file, and all the .txt files in that folder.
3. Create a new folder in the 'Realism' folder, and name it 'Assets'
4. Put your XML folder and it's contents inside that.
5. Start the game
6. Choose Single Player
7. Choose Load Mod
8. Select 'Realism' from the list of mods and press OK
9. Game now restarts, and once you're back in the menu, just select Single Player and start a game as you normally would.

If that doesn't work, please let me know what errors or odd behavior you get.

You are correct sir :)

I will post it with the next version, I have no idea why i couldnt get it working. I was probably doing something retarded.

Some largely long-term thoughts:

1) Separate out the philosophy-type techs from the actual technologies. Ideally, these should work from a totally different system. The number of prerequisites for them should be more limited, and they should be gained semirandomly instead of via research (Great Prophets could perhaps spawn them on generation, along with a religion?). They would also spread between trading partners fairly rapidly, being much less faction-specific than actual technologies. In some cases, of course, they should still retain prerequisites, when their implementation would be completely hypothetical without a certain technology, or when they aren't logical without certain antecedents (e.g., socialism stemming from the wide use of unskilled labor in factories).

2) Put less emphasis on "liking you" in diplomacy. All nations should be self-interested enough to give almost anyone almost anything in exchange for a good deal, short of actual wartime conditions.

3) Add more diplomatic options, and have fewer of them contingent on technologies. Unilateral protection agreements come to mind, but I'm sure there are others.

4) Allow any diplomatic option to be traded for any other.

5) Eliminate the seemingly baseless hatred that some factions have for each other. If two factions aren't at war and haven't been at war, they should have no objections to anyone trading with the other. (Possibly later on more sophistication could be added for Cold War-type conflicts, but those should be corner cases.)

6) Technologies should gradually spread between factions even without direct trading. The probability per turn of spread would depend on a) strength of relationship between the relevant factions and b) an index within the tech itself (Writing would have a very high index, for instance, whereas Fission would have a very low one; in general, they would depend on the degree to which the tech could plausibly be kept secret).

7) "Future Tech" should ultimately be removed and replaced with some actual possible future technologies.

8) The Alpha Centauri win condition should be ditched and replaced with the condition of learning super-advanced techs such as Universal Nanoconstruction plus Artificial Superintelligence or the like, which would make you so powerful that actually conquering the world would be a formality. Seriously, who cares about Alpha Centauri?

9) The tech tree should, in general, be much more flexible, so that you have more options at any point, but those options should perhaps take longer. Ultimately, combined with #6, this would mean that most technologies would be obtained through gradual leaks or other cultural interchange, rather than through direct personal research.

Now some more specific and readily implementable suggestions:

1) Until #1 in the general suggestions is implementable, all philosophical or "idea" techs should be removed as prerequisites for anything (except other philosophical techs) and have their research costs and effects sharply reduced. These include: Mysticism, Polytheism, Meditation, Monotheism, Priesthood, Monarchy, Code of Laws, Theology, Civil Service, Feudalism, Philosophy, Music, Literature, Drama, Guilds, Divine Right, Education, Liberalism, Nationalism, Military Tradition, Democracy, Constitution, Corporation, Fascism, Communism. Most of these should have their prerequisites removed, too, or at least most of them.

2) Here are some examples of what the prerequisites should be for certain early technologies, as #9 above (I have reasons for all of these if you want to hear my reasoning).

Hunting: None, and all factions should start with it (we're talking pre-Stone Age here―how could any society have eaten before the Green Revolution without hunting, just foraging?).

Polytheism, Meditation, Sailing, Pottery, Animal Husbandry, Archery, Monotheism, Writing, Monarchy, Drama, Code of Laws, Currency, Calendar, Civil Service, Philosophy, Music: None.

Bronze Working, Masonry, Iron Working, Compass: Mining only. (Magnetic compasses can be constructed using lodestone or other materials that are not, strictly speaking, iron.)

Priesthood, Theology, Divine Right: Mysticism OR Polytheism OR Monotheism.

Literature, Mathematics: Writing.

Metal Casting, Machinery: Bronze Working OR Iron Working OR whatever Aluminum harvesting requires. (However, Machinery and/or things requiring Machinery will be far more expensive without Metal Casting.)

Feudalism: Monarchy.

Optics: Machinery.

Engineering: Mathematics.

Paper: Writing. (In principle, you can make paper without knowing how to write, but I can't think why anyone would think of it.)

Guilds: Not quite sure. Your civ should have to have divided labor for guilds to exist, so it should be sometime in the Classical period at the earliest, but I don't know what a good prereq should be.

Banking: Currency.

Construction: Remove entirely, since it makes no sense.


Those are just the early techs, of course, but you can see what I'm driving at: a much broader tech tree. The current one is far too fatalistic.

Wow O.o I like your ideas.....Can I steal them all? :P

Seriously though....I would love to have someone as creative as you around to talk to and bounce ideas with...

Sure thing, glad you like them. I'd be willing to help with the XML a bit, too.

Here are some of my ideas (probably mostly useless ;) )

Modern units should have more advantage over older units.

Perhaps doing something to land based artillery, like extending the range since in real life they rarely see their targets.

The ICBMs seem kind of weak for the negative reaction and global warming they cause.

The stealth bombers should have either a greater range or unlimited like ICBMS. I read you wanted to have supply issues, maybe you could have a support fuel plane that could extend their range. It may unbalance things but it would be nice if they would get hit less since they are stealth.

Since I've only had the chance to play America so far I think you should allow navy seals on the submarines :D

I am not sure about this, but it does seem weird that the helicopter can't cross the ocean. Maybe they could only move a few spaces over ocean. As I said I dunno, but it would be cool to have like anti sub helicopters on boats.

Have you considered adding modern non stealth bombers?

Some random crazy ideas: Transporting troops via helicopters, paratroopers, armored cars that can transport troops and perhaps allowing aircraft to actually destroy units (especially boats).

My last thought is it would be nice to be able to use the satellites you research or perhaps UAVs to see some of the enemy terroritory sometimes.

Nuclear-Powered Submarine - This type of ship is much quieter than its grandfather submarine (thus stealthier), allowed to stay 'at sea' for longer periods of time, and allowed to be larger and travel at deeper depths because of the power supplies avialable with nuclear power vs. oil power
Just so you know nuclear submarines are not necessarily quieter than diesels. The fact is that a diesel running on batteries is next to impossible to locate but when it snorkels to recharge its batteries, that's when it's broadcasting its location. There are also different types of nukes that have varying degrees of sophistication. You could include a Boomer and an attack sub that are nuclear powered for example and that's just talking about the US. The Swedish have developed a very interesting system for subs as well.

I will surely wait 1.0, but good work !!!

What do you think to include splitting empires :eek:

And make a normal world map not an huge plz

I play with 18 civs on normal random map ==> FUN :mischief:

I must choose English imperatively ?

Because i love play in my native language (French)

What do you think to include splitting empires :eek:

This is a good idea, but need to be careful as it might get out of hand

Im quite enjoying this mod (put in the "insane barbarian" mod on top, and its a party)

Cant wait for future releases

Lachlan - If you are willing to translate, then you can play in French!!! lol. I don't know any other languages, and really would need people to go through and translate for me. I have literally a list of things that need translating in there.

SlayerofDeitys - I stand corrected, sir. Perhaps just leaving the extended range bonus (because taht is obvious) and just get rid of the power bonuses? Or should I remove it all together and re-organize how I am doing that?

Goatmaster & Simetrical - I liked alot of both of your suggestions and observations :) I have added alot of them already. 0.5 will contain *alot* of these changes, and I should be posting it tonight.

In other exciting news, 0.5 will also contain the python framework for buildable resources (Musket Factory, Oil Refinary, etc) *AND* expendable resources (limiting units per resource tile).

This is only implemented on Musketman and Muskets (Musket Factory), but it is a framework setup to be able to copy-paste to every single other resource using unit in the game. Yay!

You read my mind!!! I have been looking into the scripting a bit for this, and have not quite figured out how to do it yet; But it is *definitely* a major goal of mine. I will definitely need help in this respect though, because the map generators would need to be modified as well. But its definitely a goal! I want to get this aspect done asap, just a matter of learning it really; And of course, if people are going to actually play this thing enough to invest the time in it!

What I would like to see is that a recource is handled completely different, more like how a regular RTS handles recources.

I'll give an example. Lets say there is some iron you're mining. Each turn, if a city would be actively mining there (so not just within your borders), that city (or the capital if they are connected) gets an amount of iron (lets say 1/turn). Once you will build a swordman, the stack of iron gets reduced by the iron cost (lets say 10 iron) to build it.

Heres an idea (if it hasnt been brought up yet)
See if you can add in a new type of mountain terrain, still impassible, except to workers (which will allow road building, so other units can pass through)

This will be rarer than normal mountains
But will at least allow some sort of passage through some mountain ranges

What do you think?

I've just tested it, and it worked fine for me. :) No problems loading saved games either.
......
If that doesn't work, please let me know what errors or odd behavior you get.


I'm not sure what I've done. It loads fine but hangs up when I try to load a saved game. It says that MODS/realism is not a valid folder. But it will start the game from it. Any suggestions?

In a few hours I'll be posting a version taht installs *only* as a Mod in the mod folders and that will be that.

As for saved games, I *believe* you have to start a saved game in the mod to finish it using a Mod-style installation. Im not sure however; I need to look into how it effects saved games. I will probably include a way to install it the old way so no one loses their saved games.

I'm not sure what I've done. It loads fine but hangs up when I try to load a saved game. It says that MODS/realism is not a valid folder. But it will start the game from it. Any suggestions?

Ah yes, it might be due to some quirk in the installation. Where did you install the mod?

Wow, great start to this Mod jaynus. I'll wait for the next version to get posted and jump right into it.

SlayerofDeitys - I stand corrected, sir. Perhaps just leaving the extended range bonus (because taht is obvious) and just get rid of the power bonuses? Or should I remove it all together and re-organize how I am doing that? Obviously the increased range makes sense but I think I would also leave the increased power that you have given it to represent better weapons technology I suppose. If you really want to get in depth with submarines it would require a lot of work given all of the different types and variables. For example the Russian Oscar II may very well be the mother of all subs being designed to take out US aircraft carrier battle groups. If you do decide to work extensively on the naval aspect I should be able to help and if I don't know the answer I know people who do. One thing I would like to see for coastal cities is to give them the ability to build an IUSS (Integrated undersea surveillance system) station. Basically it's just a bunch of cables laid at the bottom of the ocean and it is used to detect enemy submarines that may be off the coast of a country. The nice thing is you can also pick up other ships so it could reveal a few more squares of the FOW out into the ocean with the ability to see all naval vessels. It might come in handy for picking up an enemy invasion fleet. On another note just the other day I was thinking about how to implement a reserve system in the game for resources. That way when the enemy cuts you off from your oil for example you may still have emergency reserves to supply your units. Cities could also demand a certain level of oil or be unhappy due to increased gas prices. Gee sound familiar? I can't shake the feeling though that it is going to require a lot more resources if you make them expendable although that would certainly make things more interesting. Maybe you could also add a technology to cut city fuel consumption such as solar powered vehicles or hydrogen fuel cells.

update posted! You may/may not get ingame random python errors. They are intermitent.

Again, If you get python errors, just delete the Mods\Realism\Assets\Python directory to play if its too annoying, otherwise please post errors your getting. (I left it there to test it).


SlayerOfDietys - I'll post a response tonight, I definitely do want to go in that direction though :)

First off, no problems installing it or loading it to play. :D

So far I've noticed that the processing of turns is taking considerably longer than the original game. Maybe 3-5 times longer? The initial turn took over 2 minutes and now they're running 15-20 seconds from the time you hit enter until you can do anything again. I don't remember it taking that long in 3920BC before. Maybe it's doing more calculations? I have no idea.

I noticed that the tech is about double right of the bat. Is it double throughout the entire mod or does it triple or quadruple later on when the research tends to accelerate too much?

Back to playing. Thanks for the improvements.

Hahahaha Anyone notice the swordsman bonus is broken yet?

+15% Defense vs. Bear

Woodelf - Looking into the loading times now...As for the tech issues, that is the idea. I am sitting down and testing another full-length game, but my *intent* is for it to take 3x as longer ren era to modern era

I played till 1800~ BC without any lag on a small island map with only 2 other civs. Haven't had time yet to play more.

To be honest, I think the whole tech tree should eventually be rebuilt from the ground up. For now, of course, work with what we have, but eventually let's aim for a full replacement. I could maybe start work on that this weekend if you want (obviously just as a very detailed suggestion written in XML that you should hopefully be able to just plug in if you want it).

First, I'd like to say that I really appreciate the MOD and I think the slowing down of tech and increase in the unit production makes the game much more enjoyable. My only problem is the time between turns, it started out being about 10 seconds between turns and now I'm in the middle ages and it's nearly a minute which makes it unplayable. I've played previously on HUGE maps with many cultures and haven't had more than 1/5 that time between turns before.

Here's the start of a more detailed elaboration on my last post. Obviously, the stats I give are basically all off-the-cuff and shouldn't be taken as final by any means.

All civilizations are assumed to start out somewhere shortly before the earliest known Bronze Age, call it 3500 BCE. An earlier start than that is fairly nonsensical, IMO, since the extension of state control beyond a single tribe didn't really seriously exist before approximately that period. So, this will be the start of my layout here. All civilizations can be assumed to know how to hunt, forage, construct tools and simple dwellings out of wood and stone, and use archery.

Farming
Prerequisites: None.
Bonuses: Allows use of the Agricultural Society civic. Allows construction of Farms. (Agricultural Society increases the cost of all units and dramatically increases the cost of Settlers, but allows cities to expand beyond a limit imposed by the Nomadic Society civic, which certain factions may begin with as their default instead of Agricultural Society. Civilizations using Agricultural Society can build Cottages and Roads.)
Cost: Moderate. Easy transferability.

Animal Husbandry
Prerequisites: None.
Bonuses: Allows use of the Agricultural Society civic. Allows construction of Pastures. With The Wheel, allows recruitment of Chariots.
Cost: Low. Easy transferability.

Calendar
Prerequisites: None.
Bonuses: Grants 10% of research points required for Astronomy.
Cost: Very low. Easy transferability.

Astronomy
Prerequisites: None.
Bonuses: Centers World Map. Automatically grants Calendar tech. +1 to sea movement.
Cost: Moderate. Moderate transferability.

Abstract Arithmetic
Prerequisites: None.
Bonuses: ?
Cost: Low. Easy transferability.

Writing
Prerequisites: None.
Bonuses: Allows construction of Library. +100% transferability of technologies with other Writing civilizations. +20% to all research rates.
Cost: High. Easy transferability.

Alphabet
Prerequisites: Writing.
Bonuses: -10% Library cost. Further +25% transferability of technologies with other Writing civilizations. Further +5% to all research rates.
Cost: Moderate. Easy transferability.

Geometry
Prerequisites: Writing, Abstract Arithmetic.
Bonuses: Grants 20% of research points required for Astronomy.
Cost: High. Moderate transferability.

Architectural Engineering
Prerequisites: Geometry.
Bonuses: All Walls, Forts, and Castles give +10% protection points. Building costs are reduced by 5%. Allows recruitement of Ballistae (basically the equivalent of Catapults in unmodded Civ IV).
Cost: High. Moderate transferability.

Mining
Prerequisites: None.
Bonuses: Allows construction of Mines. With Bronze Working, allows Copper to be viewed. With Iron Working, allows Iron to be viewed. With Aluminum Construction, allows Aluminum to be viewed. With Fission, allows Uranium to be viewed.
Cost: Low. Easy transferability.

Bronze Working
Prerequisites: None.
Bonuses: With Mining, allows Copper to be viewed. In cities with access to Copper, +1 strength to all Melee units (not cumulative with Iron Working bonus).
Cost: Moderate. Easy transferability.

Iron Working
Prerequisites: None.
Bonuses: With Mining, allows Iron to be viewed. In cities with access to Iron, +1 strength to all Melee units (not cumulative with Bronze Working bonus). Grants 10% of research points required for Compass.
Cost: Moderate. Easy transferability.

Metal Casting
Prerequisites: Bronze Working or Iron Working or Aluminum Construction.
Bonuses: Allows construction of Forges, The Colossus, and Workshops. Grants 20% of research points required for Compass.
Cost: Moderate. Easy transferability.

Masonry
Prerequisites: Agricultural Society civic.
Bonuses: Allows construction of Walls, The Pyramids, Quarries, and Paved Roads (improved Road improvement, but takes longer to build).
Cost: Low. Easy transferability.

The Wheel
Prerequisites: None.
Bonuses: With Animal Husbandry, allows recruitment of Chariots. +1 movement for Workers and Settlers.
Cost: Low. Easy transferability.

Riding
Prerequisites: Animal Husbandry.
Bonuses: In cities with access to Horses or Camels, allows recruitment of Horse Archers or Camel Archers, as well as any other Cavalry units enabled by other technologies.
Cost: Low. Easy transferability.

Currency
Prerequisites: None.
Bonuses: +1 trade route per city. Allows construction of Wealth.
Cost: Moderate. Easy transferability.

Short post here (Im binging coding python, so im going to reply to everything tommarow...cant **** up my chi you know)

Simetrical - Do you have aim? Im going to email you some stuff...aim would be easy to collaberate :)

Lag issue - The best snag I can find about this so far is the massive increase in units that the AI has because of the extended turns. I can't confirm this though. Im going to go bump heads with the other slow-mod makers and see if anyone else is getting this, otherwise im going to need to narrow it down inside the mod.

I'm not sure how there could be a lag issue at 3900BC because of increased AI units. How could they have any built in 5 turns? Or do they start with a lot more? Maybe there was an increase in wild animals put in?

I removed the python scripts, that happens to speed it back up again

In reality siege weapons can fire from long distances, without getting in danger (except other siege weapons). In Civ 4 you have to use a siege weaopn as a suicide bomber. I'd like to see siege weapons become a bit more like they were in Civ 3.

My suggestions to change:

- Siege weapons can no longer defend theirselves, since they can not fire at point blank. Instead, attacking an undefended siege weapon should allow you to capture it.
- Siege weapons can no longer attack like other units, their attacks should be limited to bombarding. During a bombard, it can shoot only once, and the siege weapon does not get damaged (it's at a safe range, remember?). It still causes collateral damage.

This would make siege weapons more realistic, without making them overpowered.

Version 0.5 posted, its a *small* update, mostly to fix the major lag issue. I had an error in the python code I was passing, it lagged every time it hit it (it hit it alot of times hehe). That is fixed.

Tonight will be v0.6, a bigger update I promise.

In reality siege weapons can fire from long distances, without getting in danger (except other siege weapons). In Civ 4 you have to use a siege weaopn as a suicide bomber. I'd like to see siege weapons become a bit more like they were in Civ 3.

My suggestions to change:

- Siege weapons can no longer defend theirselves, since they can not fire at point blank. Instead, attacking an undefended siege weapon should allow you to capture it.
- Siege weapons can no longer attack like other units, their attacks should be limited to bombarding. During a bombard, it can shoot only once, and the siege weapon does not get damaged (it's at a safe range, remember?). It still causes collateral damage.

This would make siege weapons more realistic, without making them overpowered.
Youri - Im working on this. The engine is still a bit..hm...cranky about doing modifications like this. I've been investigating it along with all my other python changes, and it should come soon enough. I agree, its a rather annoying thing to have kamakazi catapults.

I removed the python scripts, that happens to speed it back up again
DeadZoneMDx - You are correct sir. I just posted the fix so you should not have to do this anymore.

Great news jaynus. Now I'll be able to offer some feedback since I'll get beyond 3700BC!

Any thoughts to incorporate some of the other little Mods floating around? Like the tree planting, snoopy's, or the medieval units tweaking mods?

yessir I have :) I am waiting for them all to get a little further along to ask, it would be a ***** to upkeep them with constant updates going in.

This mod seems very creative. Your server, however, doesnt seem to be working for me. Is there any reason you couldn't just host it on civfanatics? I assume the file isnt very large.

It should be working now, Im sorry :( I somehow got a typo into the post. But no, its too big to host on civfanatics...its almost 1mb

The upload size limit is 3MB. There's a little bar at the bottom right of the forum screen which has a button which says "Upload File." Try that.

Yeah, good thinking. I was going to bastardize the mods I mentioned with yours, but didn't for the same reason...it'd be a bear to keep updating. :D

It runs quick now. No more lag. :)

I'm still torn on whether or not the research should be doubled at such an early age. If your scout dies you're almost resigned to hitting "enter" a lot until something happens and you get a tech where a worker can do something. Maybe it'll grow on me...

Have you thought about tweaking the number of cities before you get penalized? On the standard map your budget goes -1g at the 3rd city and -3g for the 4th. With tech so costly should this be adjusted so you can keep up?

Just throwing some ideas out there. Now back to playing since my last game put me on an island solo and I didn't think I'd get to playtest much without some AI pestering me. ;)

Jaynus what do you think of a simulation of splitting empires ?

2 more observations.

Are 90 hammers too much for clearing a forest? It was a shock to me when I completed the Pyramids waaaay sooner than I thought.

And I like the fact that research/culture/whatever can be broken down further than in tens. Having 95% research was a nice surprise.

One last question: I noticed that the description of the techs are updated, but Sid's tips about the techs aren't. Is this hardcoded?

Jaynus - I love this whole concept, and I might be able to provide coding/xml support once things lighten up here at work...

But I have a few more Ideas-

Terrain Improvement-
Superhighways
Prereq tech - Combustion + Plastics
Effects -
Unlimited Movement (ALA old railroads)
+2 Commerce
-1 Health
High Upkeep cost
Cost-
Must Build on top of RR, twice as expensive
Reason-
Many people forget this, but the original justification of the Modern US interstate highway system was military- While in the military, Eisenhower was charged with moving a few divisions across the country- this took him almost nine months on the 'organic' highways system that existed at the time- something he considered a travestry- thus he pushed the Eisenhower interstate system through... Superhighways are very expensive (to both build an maintain), but they highly boost nation's commerce and allow instantious travel of military units between all connected squares.

City Improvements-
Railroad Yard
Prereq tech - Industrialization + Railroad
Effects-
-1 Health
A city with a rail yard can choose to 'support' the production of another city with a rail yard, adding 50% of its production to the target city. (Perhap boosted to 75% once computers come around)
Reason-
Once rail came around- nations no longer had to complete entire projects in one city... case in point - the construction of liberty ships in WWII was actually done far inland, and the completed sections of the liberty ships were then shipped by rail to the coasts where they were assembled in as little as 42 hours, stem to stern. There should be something similar in Civ.

Passenger Terminal
PreReqs-
Plastics
City already has airport
Effects-
-1 Health
City commerce boosted 25%
high upkeep
Reason-
Airports have a tremendous effect on a nations commerce, this should be modeled.

Minor Wonder (1 Per Civ)-
Passenger Hub
Prereqs-
5 Passenger Terminals
Effect-
Boosts Commerce in Target City 100%
All airports boost commerce 50% (vs 25% without).

Ideally, passenger terminals should produce barely more commerce than their upkeep costs initially, but once a Hub is in place, the commerce Boost becomes far more substantial.

First of all, great work and ideas from every one. I'm starting to see what makes Civilization such a huge success and that is certainly the fans.

One thing that would be nice is the ability to build forts on top of resources without wiping out the improvements that are on there.

EDIT: Forgot to mention the fort concept was not my idea, but spawned from this "Point of Forts?" thread here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=134339

Also, right now there doesn't appear to be a way to "turtle". Sure you can retreat to your cities and build up a stack but then your lands can be ransacked.

Maybe I'm still stuck in the Age of Empires RTS strategy mindset as it's not really realistic to literally build a wall around your country(i'll leave the Israel discussion for another forum :)

But it does seem like there should be a more effective way to put up fortifications at your borders. Pill Boxes, Guard Towers maybe? It would also be cool to have "hedgehogs" like WW2 to guard against sea landings and the like.

/two cents

cheers,

-J

Please allow for resources wheat and corn to be convertible into resource alcohol which in turn can fuel the icbm

Forgot about the fort on top of resource idea that was thrown around somewhere else. If possible to code the stacking of improvements this would be a nice addition.

Grain alcohol would find a use somewhere. :)

Hey guys!!! Thanks for a ton more good input :)

2 more observations.

Are 90 hammers too much for clearing a forest? It was a shock to me when I completed the Pyramids waaaay sooner than I thought.

And I like the fact that research/culture/whatever can be broken down further than in tens. Having 95% research was a nice surprise.

One last question: I noticed that the description of the techs are updated, but Sid's tips about the techs aren't. Is this hardcoded?
woodelf - I'll look into testing the hammers tonight, I havn't thought about it or changed it at all yet...O.o I will check it out. No clue about those tips either, I will check it out. I havn't payed attention to them yet. I'll let you know! Thanks for pointing it out.


Jaynus what do you think of a simulation of splitting empires ?
Lachlan - Have any ideas or suggestions for how it should work? :)

Have you thought about tweaking the number of cities before you get penalized? On the standard map your budget goes -1g at the 3rd city and -3g for the 4th. With tech so costly should this be adjusted so you can keep up?
woodelf - This issue I actually have thought about extensively. Im honestly not quite sure yet. I majorly modified inflation to compensate for the city penalties; but I still wanted to leave some complication to expansion, so trade and income are still a viable issue in such an early age (where money is hard to come by).

EridanMan - Phenominal ideas!!! I love the superhighway idea, its great. And the passanger terminals will definitely give something for people to work for in the later ages for money and commerce. Im going to implement these tonight most likely, they are easy changes and great! Thanks! Email me once things lighten up at work eh? ;) jaynus@gmail.com

maler23 - Yah, I've had all these issues alot too. The one thing that bugs me the most, is the AI will take pillaging over attacking your units any day, so it makes it tough to get rid of the pillaging units when they avoid yours. That of course is an AI issue, and im trying to find a way to get rid of it (perhaps getting rid of pillage income or lower it). Im not quite sure yet. What do you think?
We all know being able to build 'a wall of units' on a border, or something of the sort is realistically tactically unlikely, the only time this occured was trench-warfare in ww1, and even then covert operations and flanking were a norm. But there must be some sort of way to more realistically create a 'battlefront' rather than just sprawling your units all over the place to chase after AI stuff, it seems rather stupid. Anyone got any suggestions?

userqwerty - I can't find any sort of technical accuracy on that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket_fuel
If my memory serves me correctly, I remmember the USSR used an alchoholic-mixture instead of kerosine at times in the cosmonaut missions because it was cheaper (and you didnt have to buy it from the saudi's), but I cant seem to find any reference of an icbm or any other type of nuclear weaponary using an alchohol-mixture propellant...

Dammit! 2 games and twice I've been isolated on a fairly large island/continent. :D I don't want to go the panagea route, but I may have to for the next game to try out how the AI acts towards me.

BTW, made the first era transition at 880BC. No idea how this fairs historically or versus the real game, but figured I'd throw it out here.

And about forests.... In the original game I think the 30/60 hammers are random, but in your mod it is now 45/90 hammers. If you didn't alter anything than there is a fudge factor flying around. Not a biggie if it wasn't intentional and the game is making the correction.

That is definitely one hell of a fudge factor though..im going to look into it. I think with the increase in turns it takes to do improvements, its compensating the sheilds...booo...gotta figure out how to remove that.

Simetrical - Do you have aim? Im going to email you some stuff...aim would be easy to collaberate :)Yes, I have AIM, but I'm already always idling on MSN (Simetrical, gmail.com) and IRC (Quakenet, generally nick Simetrical when I'm online and Sim|awayreason when I'm not), and I don't particularly want to use a third memory-hogging program. Maybe I should get Trillian or something . . .

Some interesting things to keep in mind when making this mod:

Horses are infact faster than early tanks. The Char Bis I, Vickers, K4, and Churchill tanks attained a maximum of 25 mph on paved road. A horse can most definitly outpace that offroad, where the tank is slowed...and keep pace on road.

This also opens the door to the next thing, the fact that early tanks, and even later more advanced tanks have very serious problems making it over rough terrain and through forests...a movement penalty, or even the possibility (if it can be done) of getting "bogged down" and stuck for a random number of turns. Catapults could easily "bog down" in swamplands or flood plains, or on rough terrain like hills as well.

Id also like to suggest that maybe early armoured vehicles have a range like fighters, to simulate having to supply oil to units in the field. Something that didnt really become anything less than difficult until units could be airlifted in and out of combat, and the reliance on heavy armor waned. Putting a tank on a transport, sending it across a globe, landing it, driving it into combat, driving it to the next city, is going to start wearing out your supply lines. Because you have to fuel that transport, and PUT fuel on the transport, send it back across the ocean, put it on a truck, drive it out to the tank, reful the tank, drive back, rinse wash repeat. Its pretty straining on ones economy. Something thats never been modelled in a civ game before. War wariness sort of takes the place of that, but your combat units are just as effective 1000 miles away as they are on your own soil

Which brings me to my last pseudo-suggest...is it possible to make it so overseas resources actually have to be loaded onto a transport and physically transported back to your linked up cities and offloaded say...once every 10 turns or so, to keep being able to use that resource. Resources you trade with other countries would be the same way, youd have to go pick it up, bring back, before you can use it. The naval game in civ4 has always lacked. It be nice to try and figure out your enemies supply lanes and ambush them, or as a great reason to bring back privateers that dont show nationality. Pirating your enemies shipments of gold or food or whatever would be cool. So would sending out a wolfpack of subs to sink a uranium shipment.

Any how...I LOVE the mod...I hope you keep working on it :) and im eager to see the next installment....

But there must be some sort of way to more realistically create a 'battlefront' rather than just sprawling your units all over the place to chase after AI stuff, it seems rather stupid. Anyone got any suggestions?

This may be impossible to do without the SDK, but I've come up with a few ideas that may help the problem. One idea is to implement Zones of Control. That is, it takes enemy units their remaining move points to enter any square adjacent to any of your [combat] units. (If anybody's ever played the game Military Madness, you'll know what I mean).

Another idea is to reduce the benefit for defending units. I find that the pillaging AI frustrates me more than it should because it's much harder to attack them since they receive terrain bonuses when defending. I usually end up letting them destroy everything because it would be far too damaging for me to leave my city and go on the offensive. If it were me, I'd give attackers terrain bonuses as well (though this will also make taking cities much easier). Defenders still receive the fortify bonuses, but those make a lot more sense.

Just some ideas, and good work with your mod!

Jaynus it has a subject on to splitting empires on apolyton forum ...

Go officicial Civ 4 website in "Latest Forums" n°4

Markezuma, extension to that thought

How about a potential attrition factor
Whereas, being inside enemy borders (while at war) lowers the def. bonus from terrain, makes sense, since the enemy is going to know more about the terrain than you
If you are inside another nations borders with a treaty, then you keep the normal bonuses

Would this be a good way of getting around the pilliaging? (ie. you can take the fight to them)

Here's something I've been jogging around in my head, though if what I state is impossible or has been hashed over before, feel free to let me know.

My head-scratcher as far as units go in Civ IV is the gunship. Frankly, they don't do very much at all in this game. They're too weak to really do much, fighting wise. I've built a few in several games, and it was rarely used, except to hit a resource or two.

In that improvement killing, I did have a thought. Would it be possible, however, to set the unit up to be something more like an Air Mobility unit? Perhaps enable the gunship to hold one unit of light troops (Infantry, Seals, Marines) so they can ferry them deep behind enemy lines to stir up a bit of trouble? I wouldn't change the stats of the gunship unit, otherwise - I think the troop carrying ability is more than enough.

Horses are infact faster than early tanks. The Char Bis I, Vickers, K4, and Churchill tanks attained a maximum of 25 mph on paved road. A horse can most definitly outpace that offroad, where the tank is slowed...and keep pace on road.Not indefinitely, though. 25 MPH is cantering speed, and horses can't canter for hours on end. To get them to move all day, you'd probably have to alternate between a trot and a walk. Substantially faster than a human, sure, but not overwhelmingly so.
This also opens the door to the next thing, the fact that early tanks, and even later more advanced tanks have very serious problems making it over rough terrain and through forests...a movement penalty, or even the possibility (if it can be done) of getting "bogged down" and stuck for a random number of turns. Catapults could easily "bog down" in swamplands or flood plains, or on rough terrain like hills as well.Excellent idea.
Id also like to suggest that maybe early armoured vehicles have a range like fighters, to simulate having to supply oil to units in the field. Something that didnt really become anything less than difficult until units could be airlifted in and out of combat, and the reliance on heavy armor waned. Putting a tank on a transport, sending it across a globe, landing it, driving it into combat, driving it to the next city, is going to start wearing out your supply lines.That's true for any unit. All soldiers need supplies: food, water, ammunition, etc. But planes are a special case, because a) they can't carry supplies with them for more than a handful of hours of flight, and b) if they keep moving, they're faster than any supply mechanism you can devise (so you can't generally have another plane set out after the first one leaves to refuel it, since it wouldn't be able to catch up without having to be refueled itself). Units of tanks, by contrast, could be accompanied by supply trucks keeping pace with them, as could soldiers and the like.

You make a good point in general, however (not just for tanks).
Which brings me to my last pseudo-suggest...is it possible to make it so overseas resources actually have to be loaded onto a transport and physically transported back to your linked up cities and offloaded say...once every 10 turns or so, to keep being able to use that resource. Resources you trade with other countries would be the same way, youd have to go pick it up, bring back, before you can use it.Ugh, micromanagement.
The naval game in civ4 has always lacked. It be nice to try and figure out your enemies supply lanes and ambush them, or as a great reason to bring back privateers that dont show nationality. Pirating your enemies shipments of gold or food or whatever would be cool. So would sending out a wolfpack of subs to sink a uranium shipment.There's going to be a better way to do that than actually forcing the player to manually move every single supply vehicle. For starters, I'd like to see blockades: if an enemy ship is adjacent to your city, it shouldn't be able to trade on the sea. Likewise for land units and land trade, actually. As for interrupting the trade routes in the middle, of course, that will be much trickier.

Excellent idea.



Thank you :)



You make a good point in general, however (not just for tanks).


Maybe a "distance from capital" or "distance from supplies" (friendly border) cost in gold? Making foriegn wars more costly than fighting on your own soil. It would achieve the same thing, without as much editing, and without drastically changing the way the game plays?

On small maps it would never be THAT bad...but on huge, or gigantic maps, you better have a stellar economy to go all the way around the world to fight.


There's going to be a better way to do that than actually forcing the player to manually move every single supply vehicle. For starters, I'd like to see blockades: if an enemy ship is adjacent to your city, it shouldn't be able to trade on the sea. Likewise for land units and land trade, actually. As for interrupting the trade routes in the middle, of course, that will be much trickier.

Hrmm...if there was a way to "automate" the trade ships. All you would have to do is hit "A" like you do for workers, theyd choose the fastest route to any resources that need to be picked up, and returned.

Or if trade routes were picked like they are now, by the computer, but a visual representation of that trade route (a coloured road? maybe like red for resources, yellow for gold, something like that) then if an enemy unit just put himself on the trade route, it would cancel that trade as long as he's there.

I dont know if guarding traderoutes would be to much micromanagement or not

Hi

I love what this mod does, I'm gonna wait til you get it all the way done beofre I install it. awesome work.

I'm very curious what other resources you are planning to give us?

Tobacco- +1 to happiness -2 health or something like that.

Canibus (I mean it is the only mind altering thing that does not have to be man made)

+2 to happines -3 economy because noone will want to work


maybe Ill think of somethign useful but now that I'm trying to think about this I am drawing a blank.

Hi

I love what this mod does, I'm gonna wait til you get it all the way done beofre I install it. awesome work.

I'm very curious what other resources you are planning to give us?

Tobacco- +1 to happiness -2 health or something like that.

Canibus (I mean it is the only mind altering thing that does not have to be man made)

+2 to happines -3 economy because noone will want to work


maybe Ill think of somethign useful but now that I'm trying to think about this I am drawing a blank. but wouldnt the economy increase the economy because people are out their shuveling huge amounts of money around to pay for the hard to get stuff? or is that......... how about if you introduce drugs as a resource have a few more legal civics that deal with drug legalization...

i could care less about drugs but my head is spinning with vague ideas

EDIT: oh shoot, double post, vary sorry, didnt think about it when i hit the quote butten


Not indefinitely, though. 25 MPH is cantering speed, and horses can't canter for hours on end. To get them to move all day, you'd probably have to alternate between a trot and a walk. Substantially faster than a human, sure, but not overwhelmingly so.
Excellent idea.
That's true for any unit. All soldiers need supplies: food, water, ammunition, etc. But planes are a special case, because a) they can't carry supplies with them for more than a handful of hours of flight, and b) if they keep moving, they're faster than any supply mechanism you can devise (so you can't generally have another plane set out after the first one leaves to refuel it, since it wouldn't be able to catch up without having to be refueled itself). Units of tanks, by contrast, could be accompanied by supply trucks keeping pace with them, as could soldiers and the like.

You make a good point in general, however (not just for tanks).
Ugh, micromanagement.
There's going to be a better way to do that than actually forcing the player to manually move every single supply vehicle. For starters, I'd like to see blockades: if an enemy ship is adjacent to your city, it shouldn't be able to trade on the sea. Likewise for land units and land trade, actually. As for interrupting the trade routes in the middle, of course, that will be much trickier.

on the idea of blockades, supply shippments for resources and the like.

im reminded of the game galactic civilization(think civ in space) trade routes to other planets would be established by a large freighter, then after that small ships will go back and forth from planet to planet, dropping off money when it gets there. what if, after the off shore rig is built a supply ship is created, you send it to one of your cities and it generates a back and forth like thing that i just described, the amount of time between shipments would equal the smount of turns that shipment gives you for lets say oil costs. the enemy could capture or destroy the shipment(capturing gives the person the resource for the amount of turns the shipment is worth but they have to cart it back to their city) but of course there should be treaties that say basicly that "i wont attack shipments" (these treaties must be canceled independently of declaring war, and the other civs frown open both canceling and attacking(more so) )


also, prehaps the same can be done on land, after a tech is researched(maybe relating to wheel or horse back riding, something like that) where you can build a shipment unit, select what to ship(rare resources like iron, or fur, or just food/hammers) and it would take a certain amount of resources from the starting city(maybe set by the player) and ship them to the recieveing city, the amounts are multiplied to account for shipping times and are also capturable


what do you think?

tar - early stage for rubber, I think. Must have tar to make a rubber plant or something.. I'm kicking around idea's please if anyone wants to chime in feel free.. my friends =)



I want new resources because a fun part for me is seeing which resources are where and race my civ to claim it =)

the Canibus thing twas a joke.. i guess it would raise the economy from the fact that more people need food cause they have the munchies!

bollox, though your joking, that does make sense, i wouldnt be agenst the idea except for the fact that it seems a little too "silly" for a game of this nature

prehaps rubber could help increase movement speed? im more for resources that help out units instead of resources that are required for units

jaynus, Ive sent you a PM

On the subject of economy.

A world bank would make a great new wonder...it would work like the UN works, except there would be no elections.

The civilization with the most buying power (Manufactured goods, minus imported goods, times gross national product, minus matience would be the best and most simplified formula) would receive a +1 to relations with all other civs, and a 3.17 percent increase in tax revenue. (or in traderoute earnings, that might be more realistic) That would simulate countries putting thier money into a country that has the least risk for radical inflation or change. With the forumala above (im not sure exactly what the numbers are, but civ generates outputs for all of them) smaller civs with more industry (forges, factories, windmills) more population, but few coastal cities, would still be able to compete with larger, less industrialized nations. Much like germany, sweden, and france compete with russia, or china.

Hey guys!!! v0.6 Posted! Was alot of monotinous changes, lots of copy paste work...but major changes I think! Yay for guns!


Anyways...Wow!! alot of input since I last checked by...Im astounded hehe..

I have a test game going atm, and I am very pleased with its performance...I dont know about the rest of you guys. Has anyone ran any decent-lenghted games? Any comments, input, anything on these games?

Heres how my game is setup and how its gone, I want to make sure we are all on the same page with the actual way the game goes, or any suggestions anyone has!

My Game:
10 Civ's on a large continents map, Prince difficulty, im playing as washington. Victory condition is conquest only; No city razing is turned on. Tech trading is allowed.
We all (oddly enough) got plopped onto the same continent like a New World map. I would say the first...hour of my game was a bit slow, ancient era with alot of exploring and waiting. Besides this drawback however, I've been in constant war and struggle with rather large forces, and they drag on (I love that!). I like the way its gone, and I am waiting to see how it progresses into the modern ages (I have not played a full game yet; My testing of my modern changes was with world editing)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have abslotely everything you have all said written down and prioritizing a list for you guys, so you can see what Im working on at any given time. Let me give you a short run down of the major changes now going in, now that I think I've finished the major sluggish changes.

Heres what the major things Im working on besides more twaeking and small things. This is in order of how I am prioritizing them (note: this doesnt include easy unit and wonder additions, eg: World Bank, Superhighways, etc are *easy* to add and going in next version):
- Expendable resources and producable resources
- Ranged bombardment on ships and artillary (yay! this is very doable, just time consuming)
- Zones of Control on units (this *IS* possible with python, easily; Im working on the framework for it)
- Outlining historical accuracy of units and needed additions. This includes expanding more specialized unit types, examples of what im doing first:
- AEGIS cruisers
- Transport aircraft
- Sapper units

I'm going through this HUGE list of all your guys suggestions and going to post it later tonight; Stay tuned!

IMHO, this MOD is too aggressive compare to another MOD "Slower Tech+Balance“, it change the game too much and without deep game balance and AI consideration.

for example, TANK+250% MOD will destroy the gameplay, with 10 point exp from begin (wonder + religion + goverment + barrack), and they get 75% vs city, it's really strong; and now, with 250%, all AI dead...

#1. Whos comparing the mods? Whoever it is needs to stop. I've taken some modifications out of dearmads "Slower tech + balance mod" (yes, with his permission), but was in no way looking to do anything near what he was. He wants to balance the game, I want to revamp it.

#2. I resent the fact you believe I did not put heavy consideration into the implications of the changes Ive made; considering the amount of time I have put into it and planning it, I find it rude.

#3. How does 250% vs. melee and mounted units ruin the balance of the AI? This mod is going for realism. Tanks should completely demolish pikeman and cavalry. If I am missing something, please; tell me whats ruining the balance so I can fix it...oh. Constructively please. :goodjob:


Thanks!!!!

Jaynus,

I like the mod and have a suggestion. Gunships (helipcopters) in vanilla Civ 4 get the same river-crossing penalty as regular gound units. Silly, since they are flying, not wading. Giving them the "Amphibious" trait (which Marines start with) solves this, making it more realistic.

I modded this into my own games (before I started playing yours) and it worked out well. What do you think?

See you at the front!

Falconius

#1. Whos comparing the mods? Whoever it is needs to stop. I've taken some modifications out of dearmads "Slower tech + balance mod" (yes, with his permission), but was in no way looking to do anything near what he was. He wants to balance the game, I want to revamp it.

#2. I resent the fact you believe I did not put heavy consideration into the implications of the changes Ive made; considering the amount of time I have put into it and planning it, I find it rude.

#3. How does 250% vs. melee and mounted units ruin the balance of the AI? This mod is going for realism. Tanks should completely demolish pikeman and cavalry. If I am missing something, please; tell me whats ruining the balance so I can fix it...oh. Constructively please. :goodjob:


Thanks!!!!

Hi Jaynus,

what i said means no offencive, i'm not native english speaker so please forgive some word may not right.


a good MOD should first think about the stupid AI...


about 250% tank: AI could not as smart as human to know "which unit counter which unit", AI should bulid inf:tank rate to about 2:1, and may have no money to upgrade cav to gunship to counter your tank, but human are smart, they build all tank, right?

Musketman now uses 'Muskets' built at a 'Musket Factory', AI stupid, how to ensure them know which city should build musket factory and them train guns? the setting give gunpower unit many advantage vs old army, so AI dead too...and how about the unit upgrade to gunpowder?

Nuclear Carrier Cargo Space of 8, if AI load it full and get destoryed by the smart human without good protection as human does, is it fun? but human seems never get carrier sunk...

plunder for cities raised to 100 gold, and +50 gold per population, so conquest a city with 15 pop will get 850, even lost 4-5 unit, it's still cost effective, is it for fun for human? AI seems less chance get bonus at all.

fast moving unit +1 or +2 movement, AI will let these unit go too fast to attack human, when they got killed, human have time to have a rest waiting for the slow inf, but human could get supply of attacking army very fast...

You're spoiling us jaynus with almost daily updates. I had packed it in before 0.6 came out so haven't had any chance to test it. Now I have 8+ hours of work first..... :(

So far I haven't played much beyond the beginning of the 3rd era. I'm still torn on whether early research is taking too long, but that may be because I always turn tech trading off. I also play Prince level, continent, ect. Hopefully I'll get a chance to test it later. Has anyone found that tech trading is better in Civ4 than Civ3? Or do the AI simply outpace the player by trading trading amongst themselves?

Keep up the good work.

After checking around the various boards I see tons of great ideas that can and hopefully will be implemented in one single, great mod.

There's a nice idea in the creation area about adding more than 1 UU per civ.

I still like the forest replanting idea.

Some new civs are starting to pop up; Celts, Cathage, ect.

I wonder how well Civ4 will handle trying to combine lots of mini mods?

Suberb mod jaynus, you are defnitily on the right track. Continue this way and you will make a perfect game. Or atleast a more realistic one. ;)

One thing that has always bothered me is that a lack of a certain resource means you cannot produce the item at all. While I do understand the reasoning behind this I think it is wrong. Let's take oil for example during the ww2. Germany lacks oil and the production is very much lowered because of that. Still they did build tanks, planes and even some ships. In Civ4 I would rather see that there was a HUGE penalty for not having the right resource instead of not being able to build the item at all. Tanks for example could be 10 times more expensive to build without oil and perhaps another 1,5 times more expensive to build without iron. The numbers could be discussed but it would feel much more realistic this way.

Good thinking Saarud. I think Civ4 does a nice job with marble/stone with regard to Wonders. I think things like that should be expanded to units. Make the penalty severe enough to encourage resource wars, but allow the civ to still painstakingly make the unit. I mean just because you don't have thousands of horses running wild doesn't mean you can't find one nag to train... :)

koo, koo try making a tree planting mod and maybe burn forest mod (as i recall forest fires are beneficial because the seeds spread better or somethin like that)

I want civ spliting, are you agree Jaynus ?

This is awsome! Lookin forward to the next update.

But are there any plans to make nukes more powerful? beacause at the moment there just not worth it (bad rep with other civs etc.) i was thinking no more pathetic kill checks for units just die on contact with it. Also the land within about 3 squares of the nuke automaticly becomes desert!

koo, koo try making a tree planting mod and maybe burn forest mod (as i recall forest fires are beneficial because the seeds spread better or somethin like that)

well some plants spread seeds during or shortly after forest fires, along with that ive heard it does make the land fertile, maybe burning a forest gives a small food bonus, then you can build a farm on it for an ever bigger bonus



oh and jaynus... will artillery damage units during bombardment? there should be multiple bombardment options besides defense, how about infastructure(buildings, if none then population) and Units(damages all units in the city by a small, premotable amount)

Suberb mod jaynus, you are defnitily on the right track. Continue this way and you will make a perfect game. Or atleast a more realistic one. ;)

One thing that has always bothered me is that a lack of a certain resource means you cannot produce the item at all. While I do understand the reasoning behind this I think it is wrong. Let's take oil for example during the ww2. Germany lacks oil and the production is very much lowered because of that. Still they did build tanks, planes and even some ships. In Civ4 I would rather see that there was a HUGE penalty for not having the right resource instead of not being able to build the item at all. Tanks for example could be 10 times more expensive to build without oil and perhaps another 1,5 times more expensive to build without iron. The numbers could be discussed but it would feel much more realistic this way.

This is a common misconception. Germany had all the oil it needed. It was just spread out and within easy reach of allied bombers. Germany had plans to take the north sea oil, and the oil in the cacauses. The oil in north africa and the middle east was well out of allied bomber range, and could produce much faster since it didnt have to worry about all the precautions that are takin due to bombing.

Countries like belgium, and poland, who had no oil of thier own, only trade agreements and stock piles, didnt build tanks at all. They built horsedrawn carraiges, and armoured cars. Which is why germany rolled right over them.

Germanys production, even after 1943 and the defeat at stalingrad, and the movement of the 8th airforce to britian, increased almost 50% every year until the wars end. Even when the 8th airforces B17s were dropping 100,000 tons of bombs a day on every target they could find in germany, thier production increased. The entire strategic bombing effort of the 8th airforce, while putting on a pretty show, and eliminating germanys airforce, was completely ineffective at putting a stop to such an industrialized nation.

Socialism was a major reason thier industry was so effective. The government had control over all contruction, public works projects, military production, resource movement, and operational planning. It was very organized and very effective.

If you flat out just dont have oil, you cant build factories, you cant fuel tanks and planes, you cant produce plastics, you cant smelt ore effectively, oil is, for lack of a better phrase, the most important resource on earth. He who controls the oil controls the universe.

Tell the poles, the chechs, the belgians, the algerians, the libyians that you can build tanks, ships, and planes without oil....theyll show you pictures of horsecarts dragging thier wounded away from the onslaught of panzers that just rolled over them.



EDIT:

Id like to say that I really like the way this mod is turning out. Its much more brutal than vanilla civ4...after you build up a city, you can churn the earlier units out like a mad man.

Im playing an archipegalo (or whatver) map right now. Standard, with 8 civs (including me) on noble. England was to my south, and was ganged by me and the mongols and japanese. I had two stacks of 12 horse archers, and two stacks of cho-ku archers (I was china) and enough galleys to carry them all. All the while having 3 defenders in each city (only had 6) my research really suffered (I left tech trading on, the AI was about 400 years ahead of me in tech, but couldnt build any numbers of advanced units I guess because I didnt see any other than a few) paying for all those armies, but it paid off when I went to attack england. They had less units, and a few more advanced ones, but I had no catapults...I used my collateral damage archers to weaken the enemy units and then attacked them with horse archers.

England fell in about 120 years.

While normally all of this would have been accomplished the same way but with maybe a 10th of the units involved, I like having all those units. It makes the game a more dangerous place...it also makes the other civs alot more aggressive. In vanilla civ4 I can go maybe 100 turns without anyone fighting....maybe even a whole game. Usually the wars are only fought when I start them. Now about every 20 turns wars are either starting or ending between the AI (and sometimes me)

Its alot more realistic, since in the real world, there hasnt been a day since human beings organized and started building cities, that there hasnt been a war going on SOMEwhere...

also it would be koo if there was a cavalry unit w/ spears or lances that get 25-50% bonus against other cavalry (lol got this from RTW)

also,

are there rpgs in the game? and guerillas?

Please forgive me if this has been covered but... What kind of world is this mod (map type). Can I use the World map mod by Rhye and then your mod ontop to give me a real life feel to my global domination.

This mod is a gameplay mod, it has no custom maps.

I'm sure there is a way to combine this (or any Mod) and Rhye's map, but I wouldn't have a clue how to.

I have abslotely everything you have all said written down and prioritizing a list for you guys, so you can see what Im working on at any given time. Let me give you a short run down of the major changes now going in, now that I think I've finished the major sluggish changes.

Heres what the major things Im working on besides more twaeking and small things. This is in order of how I am prioritizing them (note: this doesnt include easy unit and wonder additions, eg: World Bank, Superhighways, etc are *easy* to add and going in next version):
- Expendable resources and producable resources
- Ranged bombardment on ships and artillary (yay! this is very doable, just time consuming)
- Zones of Control on units (this *IS* possible with python, easily; Im working on the framework for it)
- Outlining historical accuracy of units and needed additions. This includes expanding more specialized unit types, examples of what im doing first:
- AEGIS cruisers
- Transport aircraft
- Sapper units

I'm going through this HUGE list of all your guys suggestions and going to post it later tonight; Stay tuned! Just wanted to comment on the cruiser. Aegis is merely a weapons system and while the first ships to use Aegis did eventually fall under the cruiser class it has been outfitted on DDG’s, DD’s and even frigates (obviously not the wooden kind in civ4). So instead of making an Aegis cruiser, what if you just added a CG unit, and then maybe make Aegis accompany a technology that upgrades the ships with increased strength, ballistic missile defense and anti-air (or at least a MUCH higher interception probability). I like this idea also because you could add new techs such as Ballistics that improve munitions etc. that would make your existing units stronger (all types). This would fit nicely I think due to the fact that you have increased units in a longer period of time. Maybe instead of "upgrading" the unit it could work as a promotion. Armor piercing rounds discovered with "Ballistics" could provide a marine with a bonus against infantry and tanks maybe, though I wouldn't personally want to go up against a tank with anything but a JAVELIN (anti-tank missile) and even then... that could also be a promotion however. Back to this ships I would also like to see ASW (anti-submarine warfare) Helos and normal gun ships stationed aboard the ships as they are capable of carrying one of each. Which would also give you the ability to prosecute an enemy sub even without a ship as there are fixed and rotary winged aircraft with ASW platforms. Speaking of which Aegis has no effect whatsoever on ASW for the record. This mod sounds awesome (haven't had a chance to play yet but I think I will be able to give .6 a go) and I can't wait to try it. :goodjob:

I want normal world map for this famous mod !

Anybody are interested by an algorithm of spliting empires ?

I'm not pragramer but begin with 8 civ and finish with 18 !!!

Early few civs and now more ...

What do you think ?

I loaded this mod and after that i chose the Bebep earth map as scenario. All works fine for now.

I found a typo in the swordsman or the axeman, i dont remember, it has a bonus repeated.

This is already getting too much for poor jaynus.

Another game I liked was Victoria and a few people got together and started VIP
Victoria Improvement Project

I suggest something similar for civ IV

Certainly a collaborative effort with public review could accomplish much more than poor single jaynus! :lol:

I would also like to see a mod installer/uninstaller/management interface (I think I can do that one in java myself)

I see a lot of promising work on here :goodjob:

- Musketman (and musketeer) got +30% defense vs. knights (knights killing musketman every first try is just stupid)

Heres some basic info on the musket used by the british army (probally the best representation of a musketeers weaponry and ability)

Basic Data

Furniture (fittings) Brass
Caliber of bore .75 (.75 inch)
Caliber of projectile .71 (.71 inch)
Projectile One ounce lead ball
Theoretical maximum range 250 yards
Effective maximum range (100 round volley) 150 - 200 yards
Effective maximum range (Single round) 100 - 150 yards
Favored range Less than 100 yards
Weight 9lbs 11 oz
Optimum effect at 30 yards Will penetrate 3/8" of iron or 5 inches of oak
Rate of fire (Optimum) 4 - 5 rounds per minute
Rate of fire (actual) 2 - 3 rounds per minute
Rate of misfire 20 - 40%

Here's a bit on Knight armor

Body Armor...A Historical Perspective
AUTHOR Major James P. Carothers, USMC

II. Data: As long as man has developed weapons, he has
simultaneously produced armor to protect against its threat. The
crude and unsophisticated armor of the Romans to the medieval
knights of the middle ages established a trend towards armor
modernization. Gunpowder ended the development of armor for
centuries until the famous Australian "bushranger" Ned Kelly
introduced effective armor in the 1850's. Soldiers and criminals
experimented with varying degrees of success during World War I
through the gangster years of the 1930's. World War II and the
Korean Conflict were a renaissance for body armor. Technological
innovation and combat experimentation firmly reestablished the
requirement for effective body armor. Research and development
through the last two decades have resulted in "state of the art"
body armor in the hands of the common soldier today.

In 1880, the Australian police found the famous bushranger,
Ned Kelly, a formidable foe. An "Outback Outlaw", Ned fashoned a
suit of boiler-plate iron armor, with a twin panneled
breastplate. A metal apron protected the groin and a crude helmet
with eye slits completed the outfit. Dispite the unrefined
apperance, Ned's armor was extremely efficient and enabled him
to face, and survive the concentrated fires of numerous
Australian police. Unfortunately for Ned, his armor didn't cover
his legs and after catching a few rounds in his lower extremities
the police captured him.

"Having said that, I have put on an accurate reproduction of a breast plate and had someone hitting me with a claymore (an ahistorical heavy one as well) the blow knocked me back, dented the armour in a big way but I didn't feel anything other than being sharply pushed back, this was at full swing!

In plate you do have to go for joints or gaps in the armour, certainly a blow to the center of a plate wont do anything until the 20'th blow when the armour has been bent to the point that they cant expand there lungs to draw breath.

An arrow will go striate threw the armour if it hits it at right angles, however plate was designed with a lot of angles and curves, anyone firing from directly ahead can only get a right angle if they hit the one mm ridge at the front of the plate, plate was made glass hard so that arrow points couldn't catch and would shatter when they hit (seen a slow motion camera footage, your only risk is flying splinters getting in your eye)"

Source: Re-Enactors forum

During medieval Europe, armored knights on horseback were the dominant military force until the invention of projectile weapons. While elephants and armor came and went, the speed and availability of soldiers on horseback remained to be an essential component of warfare for centuries. Although cavalry was primarily used as support for the infantry, in formation it could be used for countless possibilities, including quick attacks, chasing, flanking, reconnaissance, and breakthroughs. Even though firearms reduced the cavalry’s overall effectiveness during the Renaissance, it was not until the 19th century that guns and artillery made cavalry charges obsolete. Guns became quicker to shoot with the invention of the cartridge, breach-loader, and revolver, and more accurate with the invention of the rifled barrel

From the History of Armored Warfare

Most medivel armor ranged from .8 t0 3mms. Knights would be probally wear a heavier plate...so we'll say 2.5mm

thats roughly 1.5 eights of an inch...so at 30 yards, 90 feet, a musketeer could easily penetrate the armor of a knight, per the data above saying it can penetrate 3/8ths of an inch. IF he can hit it at a 90 degree angle. The more angle, the more armor youre giving the knight.

If you hit 10mms of armor thats sloped at a 15 degree angle, that 10mms of armor effectively becomes 11.5mms of armor.

At 60 yards, we'll say the the musketeer can penetrate 1.5 eights of an inch, half of 3/8ths...since its double the range (it would actually be less due to the ballistic of the ball) that is the exact thickness of the armor the knight would be wearing. Since no knight ever wore flat plate, they always wore rounded plate, we have to assume there was armor sloping involved in the hit. The amount of degrees (which will definitly be higher than 0 ) of sloping, would only increase the armor protection of the knight.

How fast can a horse run down 180 feet and trample a man holding a gun?

At what range do you think the musketeers would fire?

I think its safe to assume the musketeers would get one and only one volley off at the knights, before the knights closed range, and made short work of musketeers.

IF the musketeers fired at thier maximum range (250yards) its POSSIBLE that a well trained unit could fire two shots in the time the knights closed on the musketeers. However the first volley would be completely ineffective, incapable of penetrating thier armor.

The only chance the musketeers would have is if they fired from less than 45yards (which is dangerously close when you consider you have 50 guys in armor, on huge steads, carrying maces, pikes, and swords steaming at you at full speed) and ALL thier shots were true. If the muskets have a 20-40% chance of a misfire....well...all thier shots arent even going fire.

My conclusion on this subject is infact that knights should be running down musketeers left and right. Not the other way around. If anyone should get a bonus, its the knights agianst the musketeers.

Of course...if you have a highwall between you and the knights...and you have a musket...whole different story. Maybe a +75% city defense? -50% agianst knights? Or something in that ratio?


EDIT:

And sorry to be a killjoy all the time, but I have a strange obsession with realism heh...im like the realism gestapo...

Hey guys!!! Thanks for a ton more good input :)

maler23 - Yah, I've had all these issues alot too. The one thing that bugs me the most, is the AI will take pillaging over attacking your units any day, so it makes it tough to get rid of the pillaging units when they avoid yours. That of course is an AI issue, and im trying to find a way to get rid of it (perhaps getting rid of pillage income or lower it). Im not quite sure yet. What do you think?
We all know being able to build 'a wall of units' on a border, or something of the sort is realistically tactically unlikely, the only time this occured was trench-warfare in ww1, and even then covert operations and flanking were a norm. But there must be some sort of way to more realistically create a 'battlefront' rather than just sprawling your units all over the place to chase after AI stuff, it seems rather stupid. Anyone got any suggestions?


Hey Janus,

Forgive me if this is scattered. I'm doing this at work :)

As you are making changes, are you able to adjust the AI to compensate for these changes as well? Meaning, is the AI now able to take advantage of the changes you have made? Just wondering.

Also, as far as improvements go, I like the idea of "zone of control". That would help to prevent the "wall o' units/forts"