Like most people I have just got the game, and finding one of the biggest difficulties is remembering which units to use against which units in the game during a war.

So instead of endlessly having to go through the guide/civillopedia I thought it might be useful if there was an easy visual aid to hand that split the units into the era they are from and pointed out what they should be used against, and what they should be used for. Hence I did such a visual aid you can print out.

All my attempts at pasting the text directly into this box failed to produce something readable. Hence I have attached my guide to this post. I would be grateful if someone more tech savy than me could turn the attached file into a straightforward post, but until then you'll have to do with the attached file.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=103240&stc=1&d=1131575100

This is a VERY valuable document. With a little bit of development, it could become THE document.

It's very important to know the combat relations.

Just as a tip -- cavalry is strong against both muskets and grenadiers.

And it's important to note that the line between categories of units is often blurred. For example, you can see knights running around with muskets. And upgraded knights actually perform quite well against muskets. I'm not sure how you could include those blurry lines between ages in a clean way, but there it is.

Would you publish it in a slightly less evil format please? Even RTF would be OK, but a PDF would be nice.

Well I'm at work at the moment so can't really do anything, and busy over the next few days as well. If someone else wants to play around with the document then by all means do so (eg:adding dh_epic's tip). Ideally someone could get the contents posted on here in a readable manner so people don't have to download a file (thats a hint). ;)

I also have it as an Excel file, I'll upload that later.

I'm not saying I agree with everything in the document, but I do have the ability to make .pdfs, so everyone can read this. The document has some good and some bad points. I think a fuller document would be better, but maybe more confusing.

Anyway, for all who want, here's the same thing (slightly prettified with capital letters and some bolds) in a universally readable file format.

HTH,
Arathorn

Thanks! :)

great guide thanks.
adding required tech for each unit would be useful
adding actual bonus in the use against column also would be useful
(i.e for spearmen put in the use against column "Mounted (+100%)")

Thanks for the work! :) That will become really useful!

very usefull Drugged_Unholy
Thanks.
LeSphinx

Good document. I would like to see hammer costs added to it, though. Hammer cost can make a big difference in my decision on how many of each unit to build.

this is gunna save me really thnx alot


die all hehe i will kill u bismarck

When you attack a stack, how does the computer choose which unit defends from the stack?

Say there's an archer/axeman/spearman stack, and I attack with a horse archer.

Will it automatically be the spearman that defends first?

What if I was attacking with two horse archers? Would the first horse archer face the spearman, and then the next one face the next unit most likely to win the combat?


That's really the only thing I'm unsure of in the combat system.

When you attack a stack, how does the computer choose which unit defends from the stack?

Say there's an archer/axeman/spearman stack, and I attack with a horse archer.

Will it automatically be the spearman that defends first?

What if I was attacking with two horse archers? Would the first horse archer face the spearman, and then the next one face the next unit most likely to win the combat?


That's really the only thing I'm unsure of in the combat system.

You've basically hit the nail on the head. Whichever unit in the stack with the highest victory percentage will be the defender.

So using your example lets say you attack with two horse archers. We'll assume the first horse archer dies by the spear, and then you attack again. Even if the spearman has taken some damage from the first attack, but still has a better chance to win the fight compared to the axe and archer, then he will be chosen again as the defender.

Cheers man for a useful document. Just one thing, you shouldn't use axemen against chariots.

Why not?

Chariots in warlords only get their 100% bonus against axemen IF they attack, the same is true of the grenadier vs the rifleman as that too is an attack bonus.

Yeah sorry, very drunk at the time. should remember not to post when i am. should of been you should use chariots to attack axemen. not just for pillaging.

Why not?

Chariots in warlords only get their 100% bonus against axemen IF they attack, the same is true of the grenadier vs the rifleman as that too is an attack bonus.

Who is this non-idiotic civ player? :lol:

Thanks very much!

I never think to build SAM infantry, and keep wondering why my entire civilization can be mopped up in a handful of turns by a swarm of gunships.

Now, I'm unstoppable. [Generic evil laughter]

Good document. I would like to see hammer costs added to it, though. Hammer cost can make a big difference in my decision on how many of each unit to build.

Very good point. Hammer cost is decisive in whether one unit is better suited for the task than another.

Any plans to update this with the new units that were introduced in Warlords and BTS?

Cheers!

Why not?

Chariots in warlords only get their 100% bonus against axemen IF they attack, the same is true of the grenadier vs the rifleman as that too is an attack bonus.

This thread might be dead, but: how do you know this? I didn't see this in the Civilopedia but I guess that explains why my Chariots always get killed by axemen. I never heard about this "attack only" bonus before... if it says 100% vs. axemen wouldn't anyone assume it means in any type of combat? I was quite surprised to see this post and learn something new, but I'm really curious where this information comes from.

I don't know if that info is in the civ-pedia but if you hover over the unit icon in the tech tree, that information is there. Also, if you have a grenadier selected, if you hover the mouse over the grenadiers stats in the lower left of the HUD, you'll see that information as well.

I think mounted units bonuses vs. siege is also attack only.

chariots don't get defensive bonuses?

just suggesting a few updates to this article, including naval units. it wouldn't let me edit. i would list the techs that unlock the units, too, along with which type they are.

cavalry, 15. military tradition, rifling.
tactics: flanking cannons and city attack.
counter: machine-guns, riflemen

grenadier, 12. military science.
tactics: riflemen
counter: cuirassier

cuirassier, 12. military tradition.
tactics: archery units, flanking cannons and city attack
counter: riflemen, pikemen, elephants

musketman, 9. gunpowder.
tactics: all pre-renaissance units.
counter: all post-medieval units.

infantry, 20. assembly line.
tactics: gunpowder units, e.g. marines.
counter: machine-gun

marines, 24. gunpowder.
tactics: machine guns and artillery; amphibious assault
counter: mech infantry, infantry

bombers, 16. radio, flight.
tactics: cities and stacks, resource denial, naval units
counter: fighters, destroyers.

fighter, 12. flight, combustion.
tactics: air superiority
counter: promoted fighters, destroyers, machine guns.

airship, 4. physics.
tactics: reconnaissance, submarine hunting
counter: fighters, destroyers, machine guns.

gunship, 20. rocketry.
tactics: tanks and artillery
counter: jet fighter, SAM infantry, mobile SAM

jet fighter, 24. composites.
tactics: air superiority
counter: promoted jet fighters, mobile SAM

mech infantry, 32. robotics.
tactics: city defence
counter: bombers, combined arms

anti-tank, 14. artillery.
tactics: tanks
counter: infantry

paratrooper, 24. fascism.
tactics: surprise attacks
counter: machine gun, infantry

tank, 28. industrialism.
tactics: city-raider, attack
counter: anti tank

modern armor, 40. computers, composites.
tactics: city-raider, attack
counter: gunship, panzer

stealth bomber, 20. stealth.
tactics: cities and stacks, resource denial, naval units
counter: promoted jet fighters

stealth destroyer, 30. stealth.
tactics: naval supremacy.
counter: stealth destroyer

submarine, 24. radio, combustion.
tactics: carry cruise missiles, hunt battleships, carriers and transports.
counter: attack submarines, destroyers, airships

attack submarine, 30. rocketry.
tactics: hunt submarines, carry spies
counter: destroyer, airship

destroyer, 30. combustion.
tactics: hunt submarines, air-defense, city-bombard
counter: battleship

battleship, 40. industrialism.
tactics: naval supremacy, destroyers
counter: air units

missile cruiser, 40. robotics.
tactics: naval supremacy, carry missiles
counter: air units

ironclad, 12. steel, steam.
tactics: pre-ironclad
counter: post-ironclad

ship of the line, 8. military science.
tactics: frigate, privateer
counter: ironclad

frigate, 8. chemistry, astronomy.
tactics: privateer
counter: ship of the line

privateer, 6. chemistry, astronomy.
tactics: caravel
counter: frigate

caravel, 3. optics.
tactics: trireme
counter: privateer

trireme, 3. metal casting.
tactics: galleys, barb defense
counter: caravel, galleon

galley, 2. sailing.
tactics: transport
counter: trireme

galleon, 4. atronomy.
tactics: transport, caravels
counter: frigate, privateer

transport, 16. combustion.
tactics: transport, pre-industrial navies
counter: destroyers, submarines, battleships

guided missile, 40. radio, rocketry.
tactics: bombard
counter: none?

tactical nuke, :nuke:. fission, rocketry.
tactics: bombard
counter: interception promotions, bomb shelters

icbm, :nuke:. fission, rocketry.
tactics: bombard
counter: SDI, bomb shelters

The original article was a good idea but incomplete. Even if it was based upon vanilla I can't imagine not mentioning hills when talking about archers/longbows...

Also have comments on the update post below:



cavalry, 15. military tradition, rifling.
tactics: flanking cannons and city attack.
counter: machine-guns, riflemen

Cavalry have the highest base withdrawal of all land units, so that makes them a hit-and-run unit, cities or otherwise, which is nice given that their other purpose is to destroy siege in the field. They also have a high base strength, making them shine in the open field generally.

Machine guns are not specifically a counter to them. Machine guns will do alright given their high base strength, but except promotions earned before upgrade, machine guns go down the drill line, which can be totally nullified with flanking 2.

grenadier, 12. military science.
tactics: riflemen
counter: cuirassier

Attacking rifles, you mean. Not that they're especially good at that either given low base strength. These are better than other units of the renaissance at defending your stack from other grenadiers while in the forest, I suppose, but that's not worth researching military science.

musketman, 9. gunpowder.
tactics: all pre-renaissance units.
counter: all post-medieval units.

These are mostly for city and stack defense. For stack defense they do well in hills and forests. Substantially better than longbows for cities built on flat land, but they're still vulnerable to knights in the open field.

infantry, 20. assembly line.
tactics: gunpowder units, e.g. marines.
counter: machine-gun

They destroy rifles, so getting infantry is a good time to start a war against somebody relying on rifles, particularly if they don't have a lot of cavalry/MGs. They aren't really a counter to marines, though. Without promotions on either unit they'll beat marines by a bit, but since marines have higher base strength promotions will make them better than infantry within a few comparable promos (though they cost more).

marines, 24. gunpowder.
tactics: machine guns and artillery; amphibious assault
counter: mech infantry, infantry

Counter's a tank, I'd say. Mech infantry is a counter to pretty much everything except modern armor.

bombers, 16. radio, flight.
tactics: cities and stacks, resource denial, naval units
counter: fighters, destroyers.

Fighters more than anything make bombers less useful, as a fighter can destroy about a half-dozen of them in a row. Destroyers have a relatively low interception chance that can't be improved upon (30%). If you mention destroyers you might as well mention machineguns (20%), and anti-tank (20-50%), mechanized infantry (20-50%)... let alone SAM (40-70%), or mobile SAM (50-80%).

fighter, 12. flight, combustion.
tactics: air superiority
counter: promoted fighters, destroyers, machine guns.

Again don't forget SAM and anti-tank.

airship, 4. physics.
tactics: reconnaissance, submarine hunting
counter: fighters, destroyers, machine guns.

SAM again.

gunship, 20. rocketry.
tactics: tanks and artillery
counter: jet fighter, SAM infantry, mobile SAM

Jet fighter?!? I don't get it.

Gunship are the cavalry of the modern era. They are good at withdrawal, so are hit and run units. With blitz they can kill up to 4 units per turn directly, and their 4 moves also make them the best land-based pillagers.

mech infantry, 32. robotics.
tactics: city defence
counter: bombers, combined arms

Bombers? They have upgradeable interception, so I'm not sure if bombers are a particular counter against them. If anything is a counter to mechanized infantry, it's the modern armor.

paratrooper, 24. fascism.
tactics: surprise attacks
counter: machine gun, infantry

Infantry aren't really a counter to them. An excellent use for paratroopers is to quickly reinforce cities captured deeper in enemy territory. Otherwise you'd only be able to airlift in one city defender of a recently captured cities. With paratrooper you can jump from a recently captured city to the newly captured city.

tank, 28. industrialism.
tactics: city-raider, attack
counter: anti tank

Gunships and panzers are also counters.

modern armor, 40. computers, composites.
tactics: city-raider, attack
counter: gunship, panzer

Gunship yes.. panzer... not really. The adjusted strength of the panzer without considering promotions is going to be 28+14=42, which is a bit above the modern armor's base strength, but given two combat promos on each the modern armor comes out ahead.

stealth destroyer, 30. stealth.
tactics: naval supremacy.
counter: stealth destroyer

Resource denial, surprise attacks. If the enemy doesn't have stealth destroyers you can destroy their sea-based resources without having to worry about them counterattacking at all.

submarine, 24. radio, combustion.
tactics: carry cruise missiles, hunt battleships, carriers and transports.
counter: attack submarines, destroyers, airships

Submarines are the ultimate hit-and-run unit. Flanking 2 gives them an 80% chance of withdrawal, which is just awesome. Hence they should hunt in packs or be the initial naval units to attack when engaging a large enemy naval stack that has battleships. Though if carrying missiles, should probably lodge those in the enemy's behind first.

Also they can carry tactical nukes, which cost half as much as ICBMs with the same potency. So the submarines can do a cheap nuclear strike on enemy coastal cities.

attack submarine, 30. rocketry.
tactics: hunt submarines, carry spies
counter: destroyer, airship

The destroyer and airship will reveal the position of the attack submarine, but the attack submarine has the same base strength as the destroyer, so the destroyer is not really a counter in itself. A destroyer+battleship would be an example of a counter, as the destroyer reveals the sub and the battleship is effective in destroying it. Basically the sub is much stronger on offense than defense, given its 50% base withdrawal.

The attack sub oddly takes over the function of the caravel as you mention, so it represents the final obsolescence of the privateer (privateers in your own ports can kill incoming caravels and withdraw back to safety).

battleship, 40. industrialism.
tactics: naval supremacy, destroyers
counter: air units

On their own the battleship/cruiser is the king of the ocean, but they are vulnerable to certain tactics: A lone battleship is vulnerable to packs of submarines especially attack submarines or regular subs carrying guided missiles, as they can't see the submarine and on defense the subs will likely withdraw until the battleship is destroyed.

ironclad, 12. steel, steam.
tactics: pre-ironclad
counter: post-ironclad

Tactics would be resource defense/attack, as they're too slow for escort and can't enter the ocean. When I say resource attack you can use an ironclad or two to pillage an enemy's coastal resources (if they can be reached without crossing ocean) provided they don't have ironclads or post-ironclad units.

ship of the line, 8. military science.
tactics: frigate, privateer
counter: ironclad

A ship of the line is no better than a frigate versus the privateer in terms of odds, and privateers can outrun them unless they're circumnavigating viking SOTLs. (:

frigate, 8. chemistry, astronomy.
tactics: privateer
counter: ship of the line

Same movement as galleon, so it makes them great for escort duty.

privateer, 6. chemistry, astronomy.
tactics: caravel
counter: frigate

Tactics equals pillaging for profit, choking islands, etc. While a bit more risky, they're also nice for attacking galleons that are, e.g., trying to colonize some islands. So when you kill the galleon at 80-90% odds you kill settlers and units with it. Along the same lines I think the most exciting use I've seen was when I knew somebody was about to attack me (we have enough on our hands and we hate you), and a pack of my privateers found a herd of their galleons, presumably loaded with their military units. I destroyed half of them before they got to my shores to declare war.

caravel, 3. optics.
tactics: trireme
counter: privateer

Tactics also include getting spies or great merchants into enemy territory.

guided missile, 40. radio, rocketry.
tactics: bombard
counter: none?

I wouldn't use this to bombard defenses as there are plenty of ways to bombard city defenses without spending extra hammers. The guided missile is ideal for severely weakening strong defenders in preparation for an all-out attack. Its counter would be large, uniform stacks, as the hammers spent on the guided missile won't give the subsequent unit a better chance of survival. For example you might consider using a guided missile on a stack you're about to attack that has 1 battleship and 9 destroyers after your air power failed to weaken them due to enemy interception, but probably not on a stack with 10 destroyers of equal promotions.

Another use would be if your units have used all of their attacks but failed to kill an important, crippled unit that will escape if you don't finish it off with the guided missile.

tactical nuke, :nuke:. fission, rocketry.
tactics: bombard
counter: interception promotions, bomb shelters

Promotions? Not sure about that. It is a counter to SDI, as the tactical nuke has a high chance of bypassing SDI-based interception.