http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LK110_BC-2800.zip


4000 BC
Our random civ is Spain. I am going to try my luck with being a religion hog. I steal the Cuban Isolationists stunt of using the lake to research faster.


3680 BC
(ST) One down, six to go…
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LAK-1035.jpg


3560 BC
Our first contact is the troublemaker of Japan.


3360 BC
Our warrior gets experience from a hut. Of course lions appear before the game will let us get to upgrades. :rolleyes:


3320 BC
(ST) We have just 5 more to go.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LAK-1036.jpg


3240 BC
We have met the Incans.


2920 BC
We are going to have a super warrior as we again get experience from a hut.


2880 BC
Our warrior survives another attack by lions.




==========================

Summary:
Can we be a religious hog and get all seven? I did divert to get farms and roads. I hope we will concentrate on religion research.

The warrior is at the target area for the next city. 2 food bonuses and some hills looks really nice.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LAK-1037.jpg

Signed up:
LKendter
ThERat (currently playing)
Pindicator (on deck)
Double Stack
Vol


Remember 10 turns per round. STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 hours to at complete.
I am changing this as the early turns have way to little going on.

ok, will play tonight, this is looking good

so, what is the best way to get all 7 religions, any suggestion on the tech path? By the way, with so many religions I assume we don't adopt any state religion (don't like the penalty with AI's relation anyway).

oh, one more question, are we playing 10 or 20 turns?

Signing in. :wavey:

The title says China but the turnlog/screenshot says Spain. :confused:

Interesting selection of game premises, LK, as my last solo game was also a religion-hogging Spain game :D (Prince though). I learned a lot from that one, and look forward to applying what I've learned and learning even more on this game.

I think at the Noble level, with these players, we should really seek absolute dominance in whatever endeavors we pursue.

China?
(blah)

Best path to all religions is to get on Masonry -> Monotheism real soon (I've gotten all three even after stopping for 1 tech before on Prince, so maybe we can stop for 2 on Noble) for Judaism. After that, building Stonehedge and/or Oracle is absolutely essential, otherwise getting your first Great Prophet is pretty much by building a Temple and having Priest specialists.

When you get a Great Prophets and Oracle, you select Theology, Divine Right, etc. as your free techs. Basically, you grab the first three religions immediately with self-research, and grab the rest with free techs. To ensure the free techs are religion-founding ones, we may need to self-research a few obstacle techs.

So: get Judaism, get tons of Great Prophet points going, use them to grab religious techs (and use Oracle for its free tech as well). Which is basically what RB1 did. But we have an easier difficulty level.

I've always lost Taoism and/or Confucianism in all of my previous attempts along these lines, so we can't get complacent about racing to those techs, if thats the goal. Also, we have to accept that this challenge will put us behind for a very long time in almost all other facets of the game (RB1 has exhibited this as well), and thus the whole mid-game will be playing catch-up.

LK, I didn't see landmass or other settings. Might affect our strategy to know what the rest of the world is like (and how isolated we are).

The title says China but the turnlog/screenshot says Spain. :confused:


I send a PM to a mod asking him to fix it.


LK, I didn't see landmass or other settings. Might affect our strategy to know what the rest of the world is like (and how isolated we are).
Pangaea, standard size map

Interesting start! I haven't had the joy of playing with religion much in my personal games, so I will be learning a bit. I don't know if we will get to Judaism first. RB1 was lucky and popped masonry so that they could research straight from Polytheism to Monotheism. And we've already diverged a bit. But lets put caution to the wind and set for it.

LK, how set are you on that 2nd city location? It seems that the city should either be south one tile to grab the dye, or north one tile to avoid the jungle. But this is just from looking at the screenshots.

LK, how set are you on that 2nd city location? It seems that the city should either be south one tile to grab the dye, or north one tile to avoid the jungle. But this is just from looking at the screenshots.

No way I want it one south. With 2 food bonus I want plenty of hills for shields. I could accept 1 north.

save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LK110BC-2080.Civ4SavedGame)

stupid question of mine, is there any way to get an info about the number of turns played so far???
play 20 turns since there is really nothing much to do

after 2 turns get the wheel, go for masonry in 9

after 10 turns get a settler and start a warrior, we got nothing much to do here

at turn11/12 we get masonry and start monotheism (11 turns needed)

decide to settle 1 tile east, that gives us access to both dyes within the city tiles, that seems so much better

turn 16 found Barcelona and meet the Persians and Chinese as well
need to reduce science a noth due to new city

on turn 19 we meet Germany

can tell it's turn 20 only by the autosave, I need that info otherwise I am a little lost
went all for research to forgo some shields, we have 4 warriors, but still no workers
both cities are working on a worker each
monotheism is due in 2, but watch the income, the slider needs to be adjusted from 100-90% due to bankrupcy
once we have monotheism, we should get some shields up

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/lk1102080.jpg

Well, with the floodplain that makes Barcelona even more food-rich than before. Maybe we have a specialist city on our hands.

Do I play 10 or 20 myself? Because I can tell from the screenshot that 10 turns are gonna go by quickly with both workers due in 11.

Got it and will play tonight.

my turnset was so uneventful, that 20 turns make sense in the beginning. With no workers and 2 warriros roaming only, the turns will fly by...
by the way, we need to expand after workers I think
I was thinking of the spot next to wines in the north

Can we be a religious hog and get all seven? I hope we will concentrate on religion research. We really will want the free Oracle tech to pull this off.

stupid question of mine, is there any way to get an info about the number of turns played so far???
The victory screen will show the number of turns left. I play to hit the number of turns left ending in zero.


decide to settle 1 tile east, that gives us access to both dyes within the city tiles, that seems so much better
I think this was bad placement, but nothing can be done at this time. We now have a city with overload of food that can't take advantage of it. I will try to show a dot map later explaining my reasoning.


Signed up:
LKendter
ThERat
Pindicator (currently playing)
Double Stack (on deck)
Vol


Remember 10 turns per round. STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 hours to at complete.
I am changing this as the early turns have way to little going on.

We pulled in the Jewish faith first. If we choose to, we can probably grab Confusionism in 15 turns as well. Speaking of 15 turns, that is all I played as there was a bit more to do than I anticipated, as well as a group decision that needs to be made on the 15th turn.

The write-up:

Okay, so my first eleven turns will probably see excessive use of the [ENTER] key. I can live with that.

I, too, am a bit displeased with Barcelona's spot, even if I can understand the lure of trying to pick up as many resources as possible with a city. But, we can shift focus a bit on that town. It can still churn a fair amount of production out, but with all that food we can have a specialist powerhouse late in the game. Since we are going to want Great Prophets for our religions, might as well make the best of what we have now.
Another good thing about food-rich Barcelona is that it will make a good settler and worker town in a bit.

Look for anything to MM, but it's just gonna happen!

2) 2000BC

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LK110_2000BC_WeAreJewish.jpg

We are the home of the Jews. Barcelona is our holy city. Since LK wants the Oracle for a free religion -- I mean tech ;) -- I set us on Priesthood.

Science goes to 90% as we went broke researching Monotheism. Priesthood in 5 turns.

Whoah, who made Buddhism the state religion? We don't need the happiness and all that does is prevent our other religions from generating culture.
When we are mostly making buildings, we can choose a state religion and switch to Organized Religion civic based on the cities that are producing buildings.
In any case, I switch us back to no state religion. (So happy we are spiritual!) Madrid goes from 7 musical notes to 12; Barcelona from 0 to 5.

3) 1960BC
Warrior survives a Lion attack.

4) 1920BC
Barcelona's borders expand.

6) 1840BC
Huayna Capac (Inca, right?) sets civic to Slavery.
Our Level4 warrior kills some lions and then I wonder why I bothered. :smoke: Animals don't give experience past 10!

7) 1800BC
Our other warrior defeats a barbarian warrior on defense. Promotes to Woodsman I.
We learn Priesthood. That gives us Temples and The Oracle.
Set research to Animal Husbandry because our workers are coming out soon.

10) 1680BC
Science back up to 100%. -1gpt deficit

11) 1640BC
Barcelona builds a worker. Starts a warrior.
Madrid builds a worker and continues production on its queued warrior.

14) 1520BC
Learn Animal Husbandry. Research Hunting so we can make use of that Ivory.

15) 1480BC
Madrid builds warrior. I am going to stop after 15, because I had a decent amount of stuff going on for early-game.
That and I want a group decision on what to build out of Madrid. Or at least, someone else to make the decision :)

I have two options. We can build another settler and put it out in 12 turns. I would normally do this, but LK has expressed desire in The Oracle. We do not have Marble, so we need all the help getting it we can.
So the second option is building the Oracle right away in Madrid. We switch state religion to either Buddhism or Hinduism and turn on Organized Religion. We can MM Madrid so that it has 8 hammers per turn; add the +25% from organized and we can build the Oracle (150 hammers) in 15 turns. By contrast we self-reseatch Code of Laws (confusionism) in 33 turns.
If we build The Oracle, Barcelon can be a prime settler builder (it should be our main settler creator anyway with all its food). After the pasture finishes, farm the rice, and then farm the flood plains and we have much food to go toward settler production.

I currently have Madrid set up for 8hpt and building The Oracle. If we decide to stay on the production of The Oracle, be sure to change 1. the state religion and 2. our religious civic.

Edit: I'd post a pic of our lands, but then I realized it looked exactly the same as ThERat's image!

Edit2: Really a tough choice because if we go to a settler instead we can block off the entire western part of our landmass for ourselves. Honestly, though, I think we should follow our theme: We have done mass-religion so far and getting The Oracle will keep us on that strat. Also, dont' forget the Great People Points! Madrid will get a prophet to build us a mighty temple.

Hooray on Judaism! Let this be a notice to other players: on Noble you can stop and get 2 other techs first and still grab the first three.

Animals stop at 5 XP, Barbarian people stop at 10 XP.

Hooray on Judaism! Let this be a notice to other players: on Noble you can stop and get 2 other techs first and still grab the first three.

You can if you are lucky! I have been non-spiritual and missed out on all three while trying for one before.

I would rather build neither another Settler nor The Oracle in Madrid next. This is Noble, we have plenty of time for both. What I think we should build next is Stonehedge (12 turns). This will give us lots more culture, and Great People points! Those Great People points will be further amplified by the Oracle, which we build shortly there-after.

We can self-research to Writing and then Code of Laws (requires Priesthood and Writing) now for Confucianism in 43 turns. The Oracle in 39 turns (after a Settler, in 12 (Stonehedge) + 12 (Settler) + 15 (Oracle) = 39) can give us Theology (requires Writing and Monotheism) for Christianity. The Great Prophet that comes out at around 53 turns gives us most of Divine Right for Islam if we get Monarchy out of the way (typically leaves ~3 turns of research to do on Divine Right, requires Theology and Monarchy) for Islam. Taoism, from Philosophy (requires Writing and Code of Laws), is probably best got by a second Great Prophet on 101 turns from now (could be sped up with Priests).

Alternatively, the you get Philosophy first and Divine Right second if you don't want to race on Monarchy. Actually, thats probably the better choice.

Then we sit back and fix everything else in our empire for a thousand years.

Can we be a religious hog and get all seven? I hope we will concentrate on religion research. We really will want the free Oracle tech to pull this off.


Signed up:
LKendter
ThERat
Pindicator
Double Stack (currently playing)
Vol (on deck)


Remember 10 turns per round. STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 hours to at complete.
I am changing this as the early turns have way to little going on.

good that the religious stunt pulled off, I tried to emphazise gold for faster research, it payed in the end.

As for the city placement, I knew it's controversial. Now, we can still mine 2 hills with the current location and it's food rich. being a capital for a religion and us being able to use specialsts there a lot, it will be a very powerful city later on. Before founding the city, I was contemplating the original spot and couldn't really see any benefit from there except that we would waste less space since the are now a few tiles that we can't use. But, city cramming is supposed to be less important and I want to find out whether that is true.

As for the city placement, I knew it's controversial.
Well they took away the abandon city option. :mad:
We are now stuck with this poor placement for the game. Civ4 really sucks for recovering from lousy locations.


Before founding the city, I was contemplating the original spot and couldn't really see any benefit from there except that we would waste less space since there are now a few tiles that we can't use.
Check out the picture below. The blue dot has *5* hills, vs. a lousy 2 hills at the currently location. I call that a major benefit.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LAK-1038.jpg


But, city cramming is supposed to be less important and I want to find out whether that is true. I disagree with your interpretation. I felt the goal was to eliminate ICS, and that has been accomplished, as it will bankrupt you. This is a lot different allowing wasting of tiles.
I am finding it very hard to build a decent number of cities in Civ4 to the point of getting frustrated with the game. I want as many city locations as possible that are close to using 21 tiles.
I have already suffered a loss at warlord and it was due to *lack of cities*. I just didn't have the science and production to complete.

I like your plan a lot better than both of mine Vol! Stonehenge is a good call; unless the AI started with stone in its city radius, we should get it.) I forgot that CoL required Writing.

Well, I agree that the city placement was a bit of :smoke: but what's done is done and we best use what it does have to our advantage. (I don't think the 5 hills vs. 2 hills bothers me as much as the fact that there is good land between Madrid and Barcelona that will not get used now).

I don't think we'll have a problem with lack of cities. At noble difficulty we should be able to :bash: a bit to get some room to grow. I won my first noble game with 6 cities for most of the game (Culture gained me three more towards the end) and did fine with research thanks to near-monopolizing wonders and great people points.

Edit: Oh, and is that a barb? I totally missed that while playing.

now, look at where the barbs are standing right now, this is the spot I would settle next, it can then use all those hills except for 1 and grab the wines.
In my opinion it is good to have a selection of towns with different abilities rather than just all spaced for max 21 tiles.
I would use Barcelona as the specialist town.

I have not played enough Civ4 to know which benefits us better, I guess nobody has and I don't want to already follow a certain pattern like it was common in Civ3. This difficulty level gives us plenty of opportunuties to explore different styles and find out what works best. We might conclude that my placement was a :smoke: move, but I just don't know that for sure yet.

Ok, got the save. Will look at it and read all the post after pindactor. We should of built Barcelona with the 5 hills but guess we have to accept the specialist powerhouse.

Will look for a third settler spot.

@ThERat - I disagree, but I'm glad you're sticking by your decision. We probably will have some more lively debates in this SG, I think. As for the next city, I do think settling where the barb is currently at will be a good location for a city eventually, but not a good location for the next city. I'd place the next city as far eastward as possible (in a good location, even though I am saying this w/o looking at the map) to secure ourselves all the land we can.

I haven't said anything on the city location yet. But I will say I'm game for anything at this point in our Civ IV efforts, especially at Noble difficulty. What's better than a little (perceived) adversity to help tune us up for future challenging variants?

Consider it a "bad apple" SG! :D

After reading the posts and looking at the save, building the stonehenge for now is better choice. In addition, hooking up some resources soon will benefit our empire. So I begin to focus on that. Barcelona needs to grow before we start producing settlers and workers.

Turn 0: Change Oracle to Stonehenge, reduce spending on science to 90% which gives us 1 gpt surplus. Hunting in 4 turns.

Turn 1:Barbarian warrior by wine departs area. North warrior by Japan moves E while the South warrior is on sentry duty. The worker on corn moves up toward Ivory.

Turn 2:North warrior moves E again. Worker arrives on Ivory but starts on road (hunting elephants is unheard of :eek: )

Turn 3:Madrid expands it borders while the Northern warrior moves East.

Turn 4:Hunting is learned, now we know how to take down those elephants and our worker begins to construct a hunting camp! Our wise men sought for writing which we focus our minds on. Northern Warrior moves NE near Japan's border. Barcelona's worker finished building a pasture and is directed to make a rice paddy!

Turn 5:Warrior moves again to E.

Turn 6:Another Warrior is built and scout begun in Barcelona. The new warrior heads north toward a potential city site. Northern warrior spot a barbarian. Attacks and easily beat them.

Turn 7: Move the NE warrior back to the hills, apparently some of the men sustain minor wounds. North Barcelona warrior heads N onto the hills.

Turn 8: Move North Barcelona warrior into a forest and spot a barbarian, the same one from before!. NE warrior begins to rest. We now hunts the elephants! Worker moves to plain two tiles East for farming.

Turn 9:Barbarians attack our green warrior but lost after our green warriors weed out the weaklings (suffers damage to .4 health). The warriors remains to heal themselves.

Turn 10:Scout is trained at Barcelona and moves E toward unscouted regions. Barcelona start training another warrior. NE warrior is healed and moves E.

Turn 11:Rice paddy is formed and worker begins to establish the Madrid Expressway (build roads to Madrid from Barcelona). Our scouts discovers that Incan rules the area few tiles E of Barcelona (they are expanding toward us!).

Turn 12: NE warriors continue the bold mission to explore new regions where no Spainards have gone before!

Turn 13:Scouts begin to move SE around Incan territory. Our elite warrior boldy discover a new race! Victoria of England greets our warrior with a kind face. Our warriors noticed that England claims territory that borders Japan's territory!

Turn 14:Incan people's representative ask to sign an open border agreement. We reject to protect our territorial rights! Our people are excited over the prospect of learning how to write and lo and behold as the Stonehenge is nearly completed.

Turn 15:Writing is learned and Stonehenge is COMPLETED! Madrid engineers begin constructing Oracle and wise men begin to develop Code of Laws!

State of the Empire: http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=103391&stc=1&d=1131690580

Enjoy! I notice we have a good coastal spot NE of Barcelona, it on a riverbank next to a wheat source and fishes!

Got it, but its a bit late tonight to play.

I really enjoyed your turnlog and narrative, Double Stack. :goodjob: What a great team this is. :)

Lets get some good discussion going about city locations and Settler vs. Oracle at Madrid, and then I'll belt out 10 turns late tomorrow night.

Did we not use Organized Religion and one of our Madrid-founded religions to speed up Stonehedge by 25%? It appears not with the 15 turns to build and the current screenshot. Hmm, looks like we conceded 3 turns of our plan. Hopefully our luck will continue and it won't matter.

I think that postponing the Settler at Madrid and going ASAP on The Oracle won't put us behind the Noble AIs. We're first in score currently, which is usually all about territory at this point. If everyone else still has 2 cities, I think Barcelona on Settler-duty will be fine.

This religion thing is going to dig us into a deep hole. I'm not entirely sure of the benefits of founding all 7, but I'm up for the challenge. Lots of Shrine income is really a pain, as we'll have to forego other goals even longer to create many many missionaries. We should pick one religion, and spread it like mad to all of the AI, and make diplomacy a breeze. This is typically not possible since a few AI choose the religion they founded (and rightfully so).

Nice turns except for forgetting to switch to Organized Relgion. I said that multiple times in my post because I knew it would be forgotten :p But the game is still new, and learning these details is what we are all about right now.

The advantage of not picking a state religion is that our borders have continued to expand. This will make securing our side of the lands a bit easier, which is what our next settlers should do.

I do trust Vol will switch to Organized when he goes wonder-building. :) It may not have mattered for Stonehenge, but without Marble it is very imperative for the Oracle. I'm still not sure we're going to get it though, but we need a bit of luck to get all 7.

Are their any pre-reqs for Taoism tech beside Code of Laws? If so, that's the tech we should resesarch next. If not, then go for Monarchy to pick up the pre-req for Divine Right. Go get em Vol!

Signed up:
LKendter (on deck)
ThERat
Pindicator
Double Stack
Vol (currently playing)


Remember 10 turns per round. STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 hours to at complete.
I am changing this as the early turns have way to little going on.

Thinking about the religion grab, I don't think it worth getting all 7. There no point other than saying that we got it. It nearly impossible to get one city with 7 religion to gain all the benefits so it better to get like 4 of them and focus on spreading those to get all the cash. My suggestion is to not build the third city until we get the fourth religion so that our first 2 cities have 2 religion founded each. Then we can work on the missionary spread to each city later.

Also we need to try grab a couple of good coastal cities if we want to have a powerful navy.

A bit of warning on The Oracle. I was playing a game and built the Oracle and picked a free tech to grab a religion first. I got the tech, but no religion! I searched the forums and found this page (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=3296867&postcount=1), and I can confirm the bug.

My guess is that it doesn't give you the religion until either you learn a new tech or it passes a turn where it does the in-game check for techs and founding religions on the next turn.

So I guess the warning is not to freak out if you don't get the religion immediately. I'm just wondering what happens if someone else researches the tech between the time we grab the tech and the time when we'd get the religion.

Yeah, I've experienced that one before. Have to wait a turn before it registers. Will play shortly.

(0) 925 BC
First things first:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LK110_925BC_Civic_Switch.jpg
That shaves 3 turns off of The Oracle. With growth in Madrid next turn, we can hopefully save another turn.

(1) 900 BC
11 turns left on The Oracle. :thumbsup:

As our exploring units have run out of land (enemy borders preclude further exploration), I bring some of them back and deploy them to remove the fog of war around our lands. No fog of war = no barbarians = can focus on the task at hand.

(2) 875 BC Nothing.
(3) 850 BC We lack Mining, which would be nice for the Plains Hill at Madrid, but it would be a 5 turn detour.

(4) 825 BC
Scout ended turn next to Barbarian Warrior, is lost, but did good damage.
Victoria wants Open Borders, is told No.
Frederick wants Open Borders, is also told No. :nono:

(5) 800 BC We're still on top of the overall score by 10%.
(6) 775 BC Nothing. :sleep:
(7) 750 BC Defend against a Barbarian Warrior with our Level 4 warrior. He's fortifying until healed (8 turns :cringe: ).

(8) 725 BC
Settler is produced at Barcelona. Start a Warrior to replace the one I've sent as escort.
I think the coastal river site that has Wheat and Fish is a no-brainer.

(9) 700 BC
Found Seville. Starts on a Work Boat in 15 for those Fish.

(10) 675 BC
My tenth turn is on a strange turn number. There are 342 turns left, I'll play to 340, which will let us do 10 turn shifts from here on out and remain on even numbers.

(11) 650 BC Nothing.

(12) 625 BC
Another piece of our plan comes to fruition:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LK110_625BC_Oracle.jpg
Double Stack's error cost us nothing in our overall goals.

The decision is easy:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LK110_625BC_Free_Tech.jpg
Theology is by far the most expensive tech we could take.

And just like that...
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LK110_625BC_Medieval_Era.jpg

I re-assign the citizens of Madrid from shield-heavy (10 shields, growth in 19, Code of Laws in 19) to commerce and food (4 shields, growth in 5, Code of Laws in 13). I start a Hindu Temple, but this can be changed without impact. With Spiritual and Organized Religion, the 4 shields are amplified to 9 shields. The Temple would allow us to use a Priest to speed up our Great Prophet. A Monastery could be built in 12 turns instead to add some research, but (as you'll see below), research isn't the limiting factor on our pursuit of all religions.

Warrior completes in Barcelona. I start it on another Warrior, although a Jewish Temple and Barracks are valid options. Feel free to switch. I definitely don't think we need another Settler just yet.

I was going to build a Cottage on Barcelona's floodplain, but we don't have Pottery yet. So I'm leaving that Worker unmoved for the next player. Pottery would be a 4-turn detour and Mining would be 3 turns. I'm not sure we really really need either in the next 15 turns or so.

Religion Plan Status:
Buddhism: Check. Hinduism: Check. Judaism: Check. :goodjob:
Hit Enter and we'll get Christianity.
13 turns of Research and we'll have Code of Laws and Confucianism. We should really focus on research until we get this.
18 turns from now we'll have our first Great Prophet. He should grab Philosophy and Taoism. This is a lock.
After 7 turns to get Mining and Pottery, we should research Monarchy (~15 turns, or 22 turns from now). Could probably research a few others, as Monarchy isn't actually needed until the second Great Prophet for Divine Right.
The second Great Prophet will come 47 turns from now if we use a Priest. We might need two Priests to speed that up.
When that Great Prophet is produced, he should be spent on Divine Right and Islam.
We may need to do a few turns of self-research on Divine Right, as Great Prophets typically cannot finish it alone.
And that would be all seven. It's Islam I am most concerned about right now. Ensure no Great People points except Priest are accumulated in Madrid, and add as many Priests as we can.

A map for city planning purposes:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LK110_625BC_Status.jpg
We still lead in score by more than 10% (487 vs. Victoria at 428).

I think our end-game should revolve around picking just one religion and spreading it with a vengeance to every AI city then reaping diplomatic and economic benefit.

--- The Save --- (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LK110_BC-0625.Civ4SavedGame) (I think the save I uploaded has most units unmoved. The Warrior near Seville should go north to uncover fog and prevent barbarians.)

Roster:
LKendter - Up!
ThERat - on deck
Pindicator
Double Stack
Vol - just played

Signed up:
LKendter (currently playing)
ThERat (on deck)
Pindicator
Double Stack
Vol


Remember 10 turns per round. STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 hours to at complete.
I am changing this as the early turns have way to little going on.

The following tactics are PROHIBITED:

1) The diplomatic demand exploit. You can demand a ton of stuff from a civ, ask for a counter-offer and get everything you want.


Standard LK house rules:
1) Automation of any kind is strongly discouraged until the game is known better.

2) Go to orders beyond the end of your turn are not allowed.

3) Please complete your turn. At most the next player should have one unmoved unit such as a settler where you are unsure of its direction.

4) Please load the game while running civ. If you load by clicking the game you rename the leader. The leader name becomes part of the save, so I want to keep LK### as the leader name. I don't want to defeat a very useful feature.
If you do accidentally load by double clicking the save, then please use the Alt-D feature for civ details and rename the leader by the LK### value.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LK110BC-0375.zip


I've posted revised LK house rules in all threads. I feel it is time to mention the fact of handing over a turn with no moved units again.


625 BC
I swap Madrid to barracks. At some point we will need real military, and I want to be ready. We are nowhere close to having happiness problems.


600 BC
(ST) As expected, we add Christianity to our list of religions.


575 BC
Christianity has spread to Barcelona.


400 BC
(ST) We barely beat a barbarian archer on defense.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LAK-1044.jpg


==========================

Summary:
Can we be a religious hog and get all seven? I hope we will concentrate on religion research. This will probably be the only game I try this, but I am really curious if it can be done.


The workboat is ready to help with fishing. At that point Seville will be a food powerhouse.


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LAK-1045.jpg


Signed up:
LKendter
ThERat (currently playing)
Pindicator (on deck)
Double Stack
Vol

Remember 10 turns per round. STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 hours to at complete.
I am changing this as the early turns have way to little going on.

Since it's 1am local time, don't take this too rigidly. I tried making out a dotmap, but the entire southern half of our empire is very difficult to put together with city locations. Grabbing all the resources with minimal overlap was my goal.

The thick blue is our current cultural borders. Red lines are current city radius -- and yes, I do realize I screwed up on Barcelona's, but after I realized I had shifted it one tile north I had already flattened all the layers.

For the dots, the light blue dots are fishing towns. They should be put down last and will focus primarily on commerce. The only problem with the blue dots is the far west one: Will it eat up too many tiles of Madrid? Will it matter?

The purple dots are potentially productive city sites, but the only one I am set on is the western one by the corn. Three hill tiles and the corn for food will have the city doing decent production. The other two purple dots I am far less sure on. I was only going to grabbing the special tiles in city radius, but maybe I should have factored in the other terrain more to focus on general production. Still, there are no obvious city locations, aside from the far western purple dot.

The green dot is where I think we should settle next. We should pick it up and then build culture / spread religion to it so that it can seal off the AIs from our lands. Even it's location is debateable: its current position or one tile west. I eventually chose the tile I did because we don't have any sugar sources and grabbing that would be be better than picking up a second rice. One tile west will also consolidate our borders quicker.

Don't look at this as a set map, but as something to bounce ideas off. I'm sure there are better locations.

Edit: On second thought, move the middle purple dot to two tiles north of the cow. It uses more of our tiles and goes from 2 hills used to 3. Chop the jungle and leave the forests for lumbercamps.

save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LK110BC-0125.Civ4SavedGame)

Pre-Turn
copy the path so I won't go astray this time
3 turns of Research and we'll have Code of Laws and Confucianism
8 turns from now we'll have our first Great Prophet. He should grab Philosophy and Taoism. This is a lock.
After 7 turns to get Mining and Pottery, we should research Monarchy (~15 turns, or 22 turns from now). Could probably research a few others, as Monarchy isn't actually needed until the second Great Prophet for Divine Right.
The second Great Prophet will come 47 turns from now if we use a Priest. We might need two Priests to speed that up.
When that Great Prophet is produced, he should be spent on Divine Right and Islam.
We may need to do a few turns of self-research on Divine Right, as Great Prophets typically cannot finish it alone.
And that would be all seven. It's Islam I am most concerned about right now. Ensure no Great People points except Priest are accumulated in Madrid, and add as many Priests as we can.

stare at the screen trying to find the best place for the horse site. If we wouldn't have open border arrangements, I would have
closed the gap, but since we can't do that with those deals now, have to select another controversial spot
South of horses would include 3 mountains in the core, another 1 tile south would be 1 tile away from coast, no good as well
decide to settle 1 tile east of horses (only 1 moutain and grabs rice and horses immediately)
we can then use another settler east to claim the clams, if we feel we need to

change Seville to grow first and assign work boat, it should not get bogged down on a worker so early, let it grow to 3 instead

1. 350BC
Barca finishes a settler and goes for a warrior to grow to 6 before going back for worker/settler duty
work boat arrives at site and improves the tile, with 3 towns there is very little to do

our state of affairs
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/lk110125a.jpg

2. 325BC
Madrid gets another warrior, we should settle since barb activies are pretty limited now
go for a temple to be able to get a specialist and more happiness, while growing to pop 7

IT 5 up 2 more to go
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/lk110125b.jpg

3. 300BC
Barcelona is the super religious city with 3 of them now
change the civic to have more specialsts
found Cordoba and start a rax
Barca grew and now we can get mining in 2

4. 275BC
Barca get a warrior and now can start on a settler again
spot a settler convoy close to our horse site in the east, soon we are boxed in
swap Barca to settler to get us more towns before it's all closed

IT we get mining, pottery next

5. 250BC
more MM, zzz

6. 225BC
our explorer way east spots a barb town, maybe can grab some promotions there

7. 200BC
well, the warrior is at max already, we could use some money if we take out the town

8. 175BC
Madrid gets Moses and also a teple, set it to library to let it grow
the prohet would rush civil serice though, not philosophy, how do we change that? :cry:
maybe someone knows that, but not me
there are no 2 AI units trying to take out the town, so we join the fun, maybe we are lucky

IT we get pottery, next monarchy

9. 150BC
Seville gets a worker, goes for another, we have far too few at the moment
swap madrid to settler, we need to fill some land
well, monarchy takes 15 turns and philosophy would take 47 :eek:

10. 125BC
Barcelona will get a settler in 4, Madrid in 8
horses are connected, but not to the core just yet

well, I don't know how we get philosophy now with the Prophet?
maybe join him into a city as a specialist?


our land at the moment
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/lk110125c.jpg

here is my take of a dot map, much looser than pindicators, Civ4 isn't really suited for tight placements I think

there is an alternate build in the north, we can decide where we want it
and if we feel we really need to grab the clams for happiness, get the western spot

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/lk110125d.jpg

so, we are looking at 7-8 core cities and then the only way to get more is to attack the enemy.
By the way, going for all religions is really cutting a lot into early expaansion and improving land. I don't think the benefits will be able to even that out. My 2 cents

Got it.

I think you founded the southern city in an interesting spot. I can't recall there being any mountains around Cordoba, so I would have preferred it being coastal.

here is my take of a dot map, much looser than pindicators, Civ4 isn't really suited for tight placements I think


Not quite. Civ4 places a premium on good sites in the early game, when your economy is not as strong. Later in the game, as city trade routes increase, cash increasing buildings become available (Courthouse, Market, Grocer, Bank) with limited land it can be beneficial to cram in fishing villages for extra income. Look at the RB1 game; there are a few cities that can work nothing but water tiles, but they fit them in because the commerce they eventually bring in outweighs the maintenance costs. I'm not saying we need to build those any time soon, but we will want to build them after we settle the better spots.

And your dot map looks a lot like mine, actually! :D

By the way, going for all religions is really cutting a lot into early expaansion and improving land. I don't think the benefits will be able to even that out. My 2 cents

lurker's comment On the other hand, it does set you up for an interesting challenge. Once you grab religion #7, you can beeline for Alphabet, and then trade for some of the older techs. Crank out some workers after that, and improve your tiles. With towns, especially, that will bring in some cash.

Marc

Signed up:
LKendter
ThERat
Pindicator (currently playing)
Double Stack (on deck)
Vol

Remember 10 turns per round. STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 hours to at complete.
I am changing this as the early turns have way to little going on.

Revised rules as I just learned about another exploit.

The following tactics are PROHIBITED:

1) The diplomatic demand exploit. You can demand a ton of stuff from a civ, ask for a counter-offer and get everything you want.

2) The diplomatic gold exploit. See the below thread for details. You can do such silliness as get iron for $1/turn.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=139169


Standard LK house rules:
1) Automation of any kind is strongly discouraged until the game is known better.

2) Go to orders beyond the end of your turn are not allowed.

3) Please complete your turn. At most the next player should have one unmoved unit such as a settler where you are unsure of its direction.

4) Please load the game while running civ. If you load by clicking the game you rename the leader. The leader name becomes part of the save, so I want to keep LK### as the leader name. I don't want to defeat a very useful feature.
If you do accidentally load by double clicking the save, then please use the Alt-D feature for civ details and rename the leader by the LK### value.

If we want Philosophy out of our Great Prophet (and we do), we need to clear out all of the other techs that show up as the research option. We'd need to self-research Civil Service, to "get it out of the way", and hope that Philosophy comes up next in the Great Prophet's list.

I don't think we're in any danger of the AI grabbing Philosophy any time soon, so we have time to do this.

And the benefit of having all 7 definitely never be worth all of this trouble, but its a feat that has to be accomplished in an SG at some point, and should make for a nice "phoenix rising" scenario for the rest of the game. It would be nice to show to everyone that going for all 7 has almost no benefit and requires the dedication of the entire empire.

Yes, lets do it just to be the first! :)

Yes, lets do it just to be the first! :)


:scan: Looking for got it in the above.


I didn't think about the first factor, so much as *can* it be done?

Quiet set of turns. Horses are now online and the two settlers that were being produced are either founded as cities or in place to.

Inherited Turn-
If there is one bit of Micromanagement left in Civ4, it is taking full advantage of your status as a spiritual leader. To that effect, check your civis and religion often to make sure you are getting the bang out of your buck.

Current Civics: Despotism (0g), Barbarism (0g), Caste System (0g), Decentralization (0g), and Organized Religion (2g).
Current State Religion: Hinduism.

Since Madrid is the only city currently with Hinduism, and because that city is both well above happiness levels and on turn 2 of 8 of building a settler, I am pinching my pennies and changing our religious civic to Paganism. If we were building military units, I'd switch to Theocracy.
[/b]Change our State Religion to No State Religion[/b]. Happiness in Madrid goes from 9>7 to 8>7 and every town with religion starts producing culture again.
I up science to 80% and we shave two turns off of Monarchy running at a -1gpt deficit.

By the way, who said Barcelona has three religions? It does, but it is only the Holy City for two of them. Seville is the Holy City for Christianity.

1) 100BC
I was ready to bust out laughing at the thought that we didn't even have Agriculture yet. But the jungle is the reason why I can't build a farm on the rice, so that is at least understandable.
I notice a barb city in the far east. That's one benefit we have with our lands, we won't have to worry about barbarians much.

2) 75BC
Our neighbors, the Incans, have built The Pyramids.

3) 50BC
Borders expand in Cordoba, and the west side of our continent is sealed off.

4) 25BC
Barcelona: Settler -> Warrior. We are asking for trouble when a warrior is the best we can do right now.

Settler moves to build a city on the western purple spot, since ThERat and I agreed on it.

5) 1AD
Seville: Worker -> Work Boat (Queued ??? What for?)

Change Seville to a Barracks. By the time the Barracks finishes, we should have the horses hooked up to the core.

6) 25AD
Barcelona: Warrior -> Jewish Temple as Barcelona is maxed on happiness.

Found Toledo. Forgot to bring its defense with it, but there are no enemy troops nearby and a warrior has been told to hurry it up.

I change religious civis back to Organized Religion.
I establish Christianity as our state religion.
Did this because both Barcelona and Seville are Christian, and because both are working on buildings at the moment.

Science is dropped to 60%.

7) 50AD
Emphasizing cottages right now, trying to put them in places where we won't be able to use anything else in an effort to get some $$$ coming in.

8) 75AD
Horses are connected.
Madrid: Settler -> Library (queued)

Emphasize commerce in Madrid, and this immediately changes our treasury 4gpt to the better.
Science to 70% now.
Settler (last city that should be built for a while!) gets sent to the warrior's location in the south.

9) 100AD
Cordoba: Barracks -> Chariot. Having a few of these around will make me feel a little better about our security. Although I find the AI generally doesn't attack in Noble until later in the game.

10) 125AD
Barcelona: Jewish Temple -> Library. Mostly library because of the civic we're in, but next turn we will be able to change civics to whatever the next player feels is best. Spiritual is easily the most powerful trait in this game.


Notes-
- Settler has arrived at the city location by the cow. Feel free to move him if you have a better spot in mind.
- Monarchy is due in 2. Before we commit the next 33 turns to researching Civil Service (Beaurocracy, by the way, would be great for our capital's revinue), there are one or two techs we should consider grabbing either archery for defense and/or sailing for income (lighthouse and coastal trade routes). Archery will take us 2 turns to learn, Sailing will take us 4.
- At some point we will want Bronze Working and Iron Working, both for resources and IW to get rid of jungles. But I don't see those happening any time soon. Although BW only will take 4 turns to research.
-No more cities! At least until we can get our economy on better track. Right now I think our emphasis should be on city growth and commerce.

Can we be a religious hog and get all seven? I hope we will concentrate on religion research. This will probably be the only game I try this, but I am really curious if it can be done.


No more cities! At least until we can get our economy on better track.
We will have to agree to disagree on this one. The AI will suck up every decent city spot if we let them. As long as there is a large open spot I want to get it. A fishing village inside our cultural borders can wait.


Seville: Worker -> Work Boat (Queued ??? What for?)
IIRC there is fish in range of Seville. That is what it was for. My turn summary even indicated the workboat is ready to help with fishing.


Signed up:
LKendter (skip Nov 23 to Nov 27)
ThERat
Pindicator
Double Stack (currently playing)
Vol (on deck)

Remember 10 turns per round. STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 hours to at complete.
I am changing this as the early turns have way to little going on.

We will have to agree to disagree on this one. The AI will suck up every decent city spot if we let them. As long as there is a large open spot I want to get it. A fishing village inside our cultural borders can wait.

Well, unless you think the AI will cram a city north of Seville then go for it. Aside from that we've filled out our "natural" borders.

Now that I've written this, I realize that we should get another settler out ASAP to try and grab the furs just across the gulf from Seville before the AI does. Is there a whale up there too? Yes, I just opened the save and there is. We should get a settler one tile north of the Furs to pick up the Whale, Fur, and Wine. Wow, that will help with happiness a lot! We definitely want that site! The next player should switch Barcelona to a Settler as the Library it has just started will not be nearly as important.

If you do this, consider a civics change next turn: is 2gpt for organized religion worthwhile for just one town? If so, which town? We've got so many religions to choose from!

One thing to note about that site is that it borders the extremely aggressive Japanese. We will need to keep it well defended at all times.


IIRC there is fish in range of Seville. That is what it was for. My turn summary even indicated the workboat is ready to help with fishing.

Yes, but unless I hallucinated frequently during my last 10 turns that fish has already had a fishing boat work it. You can even see it from the latest screenshot that ThERat posted. We should keep that boat in queue and even build a turn or two on it every now and then (will this prevent decay?) because we will eventually want it for the clams in our west.

Seville: Worker -> Work Boat (Queued ??? What for?) I wanted Seville to grow, and the only useful build I though was a work boat which we eventually need for the western clam, so I inserted that. Seville grew and was swapped to a worker. I agree we should try and finish that boat even if we need it much later.

pindicator, once I drew 'my' map and posted it, I realized that our maps are almost the same :crazyeye:
Maybe once we have monarchy, we can check again what tech the prophet would give us, by right it should be divine right. then we should go for that and self research philo as the last tech. I don't think researching every other tech until the prophet gives us philo is the way to go.

oh, and one more thing, whoever was the clown that suggested in Civ4 there is much less need to MM has no idea what he/she is talking about.
I was constantly MM to either get more gold or shields or whatever. Civ4 is MM galore.
And no placeholders make decisions really far more important.

oh, and one more thing, whoever was the clown that suggested in Civ4 there is much less need to MM has no idea what he/she is talking about.
I was constantly MM to either get more gold or shields or whatever. Civ4 is MM galore.
And no placeholders make decisions really far more important.

I definitely agree with you there, Rat! The tough part is that we are not nearly familiar enough with the game to know what to check to MM for. Or when to check for it. I think it's just somehting that will come with reps: we'll get a better feeling when to switch governments, when to move working citizens around, things like that.

I really miss my CivAssist II notification that a city has grown.

Got the save. :)

I'm unavailable to play until Wednesday evening, so take your time Double Stack. Also LK, feel free to do a swap with me if you want to.

MM stress is reduced a lot with better design in this game than it was in Civ 3. Also the fact that people tend to build about 100 cities, MM those cities brings a lot of stress.

Turn 0: Nothing to report

Turn 1: Built Santiago with Settler and start on ganary

Turn 2: Learned the way of Monarchy and start on Divine Right and use Moses for that

Turn 3: Explore Cyrus territory with the Warrior

Turn 4: MM to gain more gold so we stop losing them

Turn 5: Nothing to report

Turn 6: Nothing to report

Turn 7: Carcelona finishes library, start on courthouse to save money

Turn 8: Toledo finish worker, start on Ganary. Cordoba finishes ganary, start on courthouse. Seville finishes work boat, start on Courthouse.

Turn 9: Move units around...

Turn 10: Move units around and Divine Rights will be completed in one more turn.

One thing I am not sure of looking at the game is why are we going for Monarchy? I can see archery for a better unit, but what was the gain for Monarchy?

Signed up:
LKendter (on deck) (skip Nov 23 to Nov 27)
ThERat
Pindicator
Double Stack
Vol (currently playing)

Remember 10 turns per round. STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 hours to at complete.
I am changing this as the early turns have way to little going on.

LK, monarchy was needed for Divine right which is religion #6. After that we have to self research philosophy to get the last needed religion

We have Divine Right (Islam) next turn. We can have Philosophy in 29 turns.

I strongly suggest picking up Bronze Working next.

"What? Not Archery?" you ask. "Not even sailing?"

Nope (although alphabet is a strong second). My thinking is that Bronze Working gives us
1) Copper Locations
2) Slavery as a very nice civic in the early game
3) Axemen and copper for Spearmen! Both of these can serve for our defense in the short run.
4) It will only take a few turns (4 at most).

After that I'd consider even going for Iron Working so that we can cut down jungle, locate iron, and (hopefully) build swordsmen.

I would like to capture that barbarian city. It has founded exactly where I hoped we would found a town. How long has that town even been there? I do notice 2 Japanese Axemen on their way... we should have a settler and galley (sailing) ready in case they manage to raze it. I seriously hope they do not capture it.

Alphabet is also should be considered. It will take longer (didn't check how many, but I'm guessing somewhere around 10 turns) and we will be able to trade down for lesser but necessary techs that we have passed by.

All I can think of :) I'm sure Vol will play it well whichever way he goes.

Also... do we still want to have a Great Scientist? I think we should start going exclusively for Great Prophets because we have a lot and I mean A LOT of Great Temples to build.

Can we be a religious hog and get all seven? I hope we will concentrate on religion research. This will probably be the only game I try this, but I am really curious if it can be done.

I am getting very concerned by our lack of military. Even a few chariots would make me feel better. While the courthouses would be nice, it really doesn't matter if we are destroyed in a war.

Signed up:
LKendter (on deck) (skip Nov 23 to Nov 27)
ThERat
Pindicator
Double Stack
Vol (currently playing) :scan: At 24 hours and heading toward skip. I am heading to bed in 5 minutes, so a skip today wouldn't matter.

Remember 10 turns per round. STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 hours to at complete.
I am changing this as the early turns have way to little going on.

I'm back. Got it. Will finish tonight. Going to think about how to best get our last religion and then figure out how best to handle everything else (research in particular). I like pindicator's ideas.

(0) 400 AD
Well, one might be curious as to the toll of pursuing religion with every resource for the first 100 turns (25%) of the game on the Noble difficulty setting.

Score:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LK110_400AD_Score.jpg

Victory Conditions:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LK110_400AD_Victory_Conditions.jpg

Demographics:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LK110_400AD_Demographics.jpg

Not too shabby, on Noble at least. I think as soon as we know we have Taoism locked up, its 100% concentration on military and economy.

So how do we get Taoism (or specifically, get the Philosophy technology first)? We can research it now (beginning next turn), and it will complete in 29 turns. We could try and get another "Free Technology" bonus. The next research-based one comes with Liberalism, which bestows a free technology to its first discoverer. However, that is not only more than 100 turns away, it also requires Philosophy! The other free technology bonus comes from Great People. Our next Great Prophet is due in 27 turns (currently at 92/200 at +4/turn).

So, we can get Philosophy in 27 turns with the Great Prophet, and spend all of those research turns catching up on technologies we need badly. We can only make one Priest specialist in Madrid (only one Temple for now). With a Priest specialist in Madrid, we make +7 Great People Points per turn, bringing the next Great Prophet down to a very managable 16 turns. If I started another Temple now, and then used a second Priest when the Temple finished (in 8 turns), we could reduce that to 13 turns. I decide the Library in 4 is more needed. So, LK should get to accomplish our goal of founding all seven religions on his turnset.

The Courthouse being built in Barcelona doesn't excite me. The city costs 3 gold in maintenance per turn. A Courthouse will just apply a 50% factor to that, and (with rounding) save us a whopping 2 gold per turn. Given our current military situation, I decide to put the Courthouse on pause, and start a Chariot in 3 turns instead (and I move a citizen from a 2/1/0 forest to the 0/4/0 mined hill).

Same deal in Seville. 3 gold in maintenance, Courthouse being built. It also starts a Chariot in 4. Cordoba as well.

I see no way to get a Settler up to the Barbarian city in the north, as we don't have the technology for Sailing and Galleys. The Lighthouses that come with Sailing are something else we sorely need. I also don't have any builds I would want to divert to a Settler. We need something that resembles a military, not Warriors, when Swordsmen could be sent our way. Our entire military consists of 12 Warriors and 1 Chariot. I think 4 Axemen, a Spearman, and 2 Catapults could conquer our whole empire.

We are running 60% science, which is really low and very dangerous at this point in the game. Some odd choices of civics contribute to this. We are running Caste System, which has Medium upkeep and allows unlimited Artists, Merchants, and Scientists. In our entire empire, we are using a single Scientist, in Barcelona, which has a Library, and thus can have that scientist without this civic. :crazyeye: We are also using Organized Religion, High Upkeep, for +25% building construction, with our state religion of Christianity, that only exists in Seville and Barcelona. Now while we were spending 13 turns to build a Courthouse, in those two cities, perhaps this might be worthwhile, but with those cities on Chariot duty now, we drop this civic.

Thankfully, Spain, being spiritual, this change is quick and easy (and I think long overdue). That allows us to go up to 70% science and still bring in a little bit for the treasury.

(1) 425 AD
Qin Shi Huang (China) offers Corn for Clam. The opportunity for more health and to foster relations is welcome.

Divine Right is researched, and as expected:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LK110_425AD_Islam.jpg
It is founded in Toledo, one of our (currently) worthless southern jungle/fishing villages.

Our research choices:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LK110_425AD_Research.jpg
I'm not sure how useful Archers would be, as we're approaching the age when Longbowmen are the effective defenders. As much as I'd like Sailing to get Galleys and Lighthouses, our military is the #1 focus. We need Axemen and Swordsmen, and we need to know where Iron is located. Alphabet might be nice to trade techs, but 9 turns seems too long to wait for Bronze, and we'd likely have to trade away Divine Right, which would mean the Spiral Minaret would be built much quicker. Bronze Working it is.

Christianity has spread to the far-away Chinese city of Guanzhou.

(2) 450 AD Nothing.

(3) 475 AD
Huayna Capac (Inca) ends our Open Borders deal, mainly due to religious differences. :rolleyes:

Library finishes in Madrid. I start a Hindu Monastery in 7, for the research boost and missionary training.
Santiago builds Granary. Start a Barracks in 12 next.
Chariot at Barcelona. I start another one.
Chariot at Seville. I start another one.

I realize (probably 2 turns late), that having a State Religion is offering no benefits beyond reconnaissance, which doesn't seem worthwhile compared to the massive amount of culture we are giving up. We now have 2 cities getting +10 culture/turn and 2 cities getting +5 culture/turn from religion. This will have benefits when we're conquering later in the game. An additional benefit is that no other civilization will get mad at us for not sharing their religion (and with 7 religions and 7 AIs, is far more frequent than the boost from having the same religion).

The 2 Axemen that were sent against the Barbarian city appeared to have failed. The city remains Barbarian, and the two Archers that were defending it are now at 2.0/3.0 and 2.6/3.0. Glad I didn't get in a rush to get anything up there.

(4) 500 AD
We research Bronze Working. We lack Copper! :eek: I start on Iron Working in 5! There is Copper at two Incan locations; the one at Macchu Piccu is just two tiles from our border.

Judaism spreads on its own to Cordoba.

Cordoba completes a Chariot, starts on one more before Iron Working (and hopefully Iron) comes in.

(5) 520 AD
Chariot is built in Barcelona, I put it on a Barracks (didn't realize it didn't have one, d'oh), which should finish when Iron becomes available.

Santiago has gone too long without religion, so I use our free Confucian Missionary there. The religion will help boost the border expansion to see the very interesting spot of land across the sea from Santiago, and also allow us to build the research and happiness boosting religious buildings.

(6) 540 AD
Seville completes a Chariot. With 6 of those now, and Iron coming soon, I select a Library in 9, as this city can produce good amounts of commerce.

I use some of our workers to preemptively mine hills in hope of Iron, and also a "popped another one." :lol:

(7) 560 AD
Cordoba finishes our last Chariot. I let it continue work on the delayed Courthouse until we wait for Iron.

I run us at a bit of a deficit on research to ensure we get Iron Working next turn.

On a side note, Cyrus (Persia) would trade us Iron, in exchange for our only sources of Horse, Corn, Fish, and Wheat. Lets hope we have our own domestic sources!

(8) 580 AD
We learn Iron Working. Start on Sailing in 3, as we badly need Galleys and Lighthouses.

We have two sources of Iron in our territory! :woohoo: One at Santiago, on the plains (tile is roaded, but not mined, worker can start mining next turn). The other is well northeast of Madrid, at a spot that now makes putting a city up there a no-brainer.

(9) 600 AD
Victoria (England), previously atheist, converts to Confucianism. Current tally: 2 Judaism (including the neighboring, and future enemy, Inca), 1 Hindu, 1 Christian, 1 Confucianism, 1 Atheist.

To get us back on even turn numbers, I stop here. Its 600 AD and there's 290 turns left. Not sure who played the extra turn.

Notes:

45 more Great Person Points until our next Great Prophet. This is 7 turns at the current +7/turn (2 Oracle, 2 Stonehenge, 3 Priest). A Great Scientist could be employed to increase this to +10/turn and 5 turns, with a 7.5% chance of producing a Great Scientist instead of a Great Prophet. Doesn't seem worth it, but we should have Philosophy, Taoism, and all seven religions soon. However, there is a chance the Great Prophet will want to research Civil Service :mad: (thats what has usually happened in my games, despite being the same price and far less religious, I think its an alphabetical order thing). Once Sailing comes in, it might be worth hedging our bet and starting on Philosophy ourselves. Taoism typically falls after 1100 AD on Noble, so we'd still be fine.
We should spread one religion (preferably one from the capitol) to all of our cities. I would do this with some dedication. It will allow all cities to enjoy the benefits of the religious civics, which we can change effortlessly being Spiritual, and also increase the income of a shrine (no, we're not building all seven :nono: , maybe two and possibly three).
With Iron Working in, we can begin clearing some of that massive jungle (and health negatives)
Lets build up a military and go clear out some Inca. :ar15: Tiwanku in particular looks lucrative (2 dyes, sugar, horses, and gems in the radius, on a winding river, with 2 hills).
We should come up with a plan for Wonders. Do we have to focus on catching up on all non-religious matters and can't spare the time/shields? Are there wonders we really want strategically? I'd really prefer some Stone to cut the time in half, but neither we nor the Inca have any.
A forest chop will finish in 2 turns at Madrid from the mine being built on the northern plains hill, so choose the next build with that in mind.

Minimap (contrast/brightness adjusted):
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LK110_600AD_Minimap.jpg

Our empire:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LK110_600AD_Status.jpg

--- The Save --- (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LK110_AD-0600.Civ4SavedGame)

Roster:
LKendter - Up!
ThERat - on deck
Pindicator
Double Stack
Vol - just played

Nice turns Vol! I'm glad somebody else is also checking our civics. With a spiritual civ these should be monitored at least every five turns.

:lol: I like the "Ooh! Let's go here with Sailing" bit. Generally agree on the city location, too; if we fit it one tile south would it poach too many tiles away from Barcelona? I'm still a bit unsure how that works in Civ4 still, how one city gets preference over another on a tile or how (if you can) influence that. Well, if we can put it one tile south then we can also cram in another fishing villiage up north.

It'd still be nice to get that barb city... what are the chances of training a galley and a couple swords (maybe even 3 or 4 to be sure) and trying to capture that city across the pond?

You can have any city work any of its 20 "fat cross" tiles by clicking on the tile a few times. I don't know how the game decides which city gets the tiles by default, but if you click on the fog of a tile in the city screen (and the other city isn't working the tile), you can assign a citizen to it.

I think you're probably right on the city location: it needs to be moved down one tile, as that will allow it to work those 3 hills to the south.

My concern with taking that barb city is that it will be difficult to defend and reinforce, being seperated from our empire.

I like the idea of cranking out the Great Prophet to snatch the last tech. Once we get the Prophet, we need to check if it give what we want.

And just in case, we should start on Philosophy ourselves after Sailing comes in. It will be a while before have finished taking advantage of having Swordsmen, Galleys and Lighthouses anyway.

Can we be a religious hog and get all seven? I hope we will concentrate on religion research. This will probably be the only game I try this, but I am really curious if it can be done.

Lets build up a military and go clear out some Inca. :ar15: Tiwanku in particular looks lucrative (2 dyes, sugar, horses, and gems in the radius, on a winding river, with 2 hills).

:hmm: More pushes for war in Civ4. Everything I read said war wasn't as important, yet everyone still wants to fight. I am not sure what, if anything I can to, to change that. I have zero interests in starting wars.


Signed up:
LKendter (currently playing) (skip Nov 23 to Nov 27)
ThERat (on deck)
Pindicator
Double Stack
Vol

Remember 10 turns per round. STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 hours to at complete.
I am changing this as the early turns have way to little going on.

Can we be a religious hog and get all seven? I hope we will concentrate on religion research. This will probably be the only game I try this, but I am really curious if it can be done.



:hmm: More pushes for war in Civ4. Everything I read said war wasn't as important, yet everyone still wants to fight. I am not sure what, if anything I can to, to change that. I have zero interests in starting wars.




It's not important. I've been able to play games where I've never been at war once with the AI. It gets kinda boring, though, doing nothing but building. Especially now that you don't have a slew of workers to move around and do improvements every turn. Wars spice things up a bit.

Marc

If we don't start a war to grab more land and resources, what are we doing for the rest of the game? I haven't heard anyone volunteer anything (grabbing all seven religions has admittedly taken all of our bandwidth).

If we're going to Cultural, we'd better get in gear on our third city and start figuring out if its even possible.
If we're going for Diplomatic, we should have some relationships better than +1. Some significant population would help this, which pretty much requires more land.
If we're going for Histographic, God help us this game will be boring. :sleep:
And if we're going for Spaceship, I think we need more land for both resources and production and research capability. Oil, aluminum, and uranium in our little patch of land seems unlikely.

If we are aggressive, and grab more land, and more resources, and thus have more cities, more production, and more commerce, most victory conditions become easier. Easier to research and produce a Spaceship, easier to win the U.N. elections, easier to support culture-focused cities, easier to get big points for a Histographic win.

We could try a completely passive all-religion game just to extend the silliness we've already began, but I guess I have a hard time envisioning our empire long-term without annexing that Incan land at some point. :confused:

Knowing LK's history of being dissatisified with the war-hawking of others from his Civ3 series and the LK101 climax (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=117992), I would really enjoy a good discussion about this topic, that gets at the heart of the issues and a provides understanding of the different points of view, and does it sooner rather than later. If any discussion needs to be had right now with thoughtful participants, especially in light of the Handy22 AW disappointments (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=132573), it is this one: "What role should wars have in Civ4?"

If its folly that "everyone still wants to fight", I want to understand the vision and strategy that proves this type of war-hawking is flawed. It would be terribly sad if its just a few weeks in and LK has already given up hope ("I am not sure what, if anything I can to, to change that.") :(

LK, if you have "zero interest in starting wars", please pass that passion onto us, and let us understand the path forward. Without that vision and leadership, I'm afraid we might just be preparing a lot of disappointment and frustration for you.

LK, if you have zero interest in starting wars, please pass that passion onto us, and let us understand the path forward. Without that vision and leadership, I'm afraid we might just be preparing a lot of disappointment and frustration for you.


Right now I have *no* vision with Civ4. I am too much in the learning stage. I am just worried at this point about the role of war. I really don't want a Civ3 repeat where the only effective way to win is constant fighting.


In the end it was clear the most effective way to win Civ3 was fight, regroup, fight, regroup, and claim early domination. While I didn't enjoy it, I agree 100% with players such as Greebley that it was the most effective way to win.
My fear is it will turn out this way in Civ4.


Of course, my real mistake with Civ3 wasn't stopping the SGs early. I should have stopped at 100, if not early.

In the end it was clear the most effective way to win Civ3 was fight, regroup, fight, regroup, and claim early domination. While I didn't enjoy it, I agree 100% with players such as Greebley that it was the most effective way to win.
My fear is it will turn out this way in Civ4.

I think war is definitely not as important in Civ4 as it was in Civ3. Cultural takeover is definitely a greater possibility in 4, and wars are not nearly as flimsy as they were in Civ3 nor not as cheap to fight.

However, I think that if we can grab land, we should, whichever way necessary. With our multiple religions and subsequent culture, we could try to push back the Incan borders and maybe grab a few cities with culture.

The only "war" I'd advocate would be against the barbarian city. And the reason of that are the resources that can be had from it. Furs and whales are both things we lack. If we choose not to go aggressive, we could try to plant a city on the coast farther back and pick up the other whales and possibly a ... what is it, a deer or a silver back there? Either we don't have.

Honestly, I'm a passive player. But if we have the opportunity to grab land with minimal consequence later on, I think we should do it.

OK, I'll play along and try it out. I personally won't be calling for any aggression or starting any wars. We have a decent chunk of land, we'll see what we can do with it.

I personally only do wars just to gain resources or to keep the AI down. Beating them to a pulp will make it boring and waste of our resource when we can use the production to build wonders and the like.

In my experience with Civ 4 wars, the AI always try to find a way to hit on us without engaging the main force, unless we got a large stack, they will do siege damage to really hurt us and delay our attack.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LK110_AD-0800.zip

600 AD
I wake up our Islamic missionary and send him to Santiago. I would really like our borders to expand to get those clams. I hate paying upkeep for an unused workboat.

It is pretty sad when your economy is lousy despite picking the cheapest civics in all categories.
I can't believe that no other civ has gotten around to Alphabet, and that tech trading still isn't allowed.

I swap Cordoba to a worker. Our tile development is pretty weak, and there is a ton of unhealthy jungle to clear.


640 AD
Our missionary succeeds and Santiago knows Islam. Every religion in that city adds another culture point. I really want the next border expansion to get those clams on-line for more health.


660 AD
I get a bit nervous when I see a Germany settler on a boat, but it later turns out that it is claiming that desert island location.

I queued up a settler when I first saw this fearing for our last city spot. I kept that settler going despite where the Germans landed.


740 AD
The workboat is now sleeping on the clams waiting for a border expansion. Santiago is very actively pushing it borders with building temples. With the nearby German city we need to keep Santiago in heavy culture mode.


760 AD
As predicted our great prophet wanted to research civil service. Based on that I build the temple of Solomon in Barcelona, as Judaism is the most common religion in the world. Before I get any comments about weed consider we went from 60% science bleeding $4 to 70% science. Now we need to start spreading Judaism to make more shrine income.


800 AD
I realize it is hard our economy, but a settler is being built for the spot by the iron. If the AI was willing to claim that desert garbage spot, I don't want them thinking about the iron spot.

==========================

Summary:
Can we be a religious hog and get all seven? I hope we will concentrate on religion research. This will probably be the only game I try this, but I am really curious if it can be done. We only have one to go.

We still need more workers despite me building one. We can now build spears and axemen. Please disband warriors as we replace them with better units. We are already over the unit support limit, and can't afford out of date units.

Keep that one warrior in the first east exploring. We still lack a lot of map details.

Please let some of the courthouses complete. We really need to help our economy, and even saving $2 looks good right now.


As much as I dislike war, I do agree that at some point we *will* need to take a few more cities. Right now our economy and infrastructure is solely lacking, and we need to concentrate on that. At the moment we can't even afford more troops. I think war is at least 40 turns away.


Signed up:
LKendter (skip Nov 23 to Nov 27)
ThERat (currently playing)
Pindicator (on deck)
Double Stack
Vol

Remember 10 turns per round. STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 hours to at complete.

I build the temple of Solomon in Barcelona, as Judaism is the most common religion in the world. Before I get any comments about weed consider we went from 60% science bleeding $4 to 70% science. Now we need to start spreading Judaism to make more shrine income.


Nothing weed about that in my book. Except maybe what they're doing inside of that temple :lol:

I can either be skipped or will be ready for my turns on Monday at the latest. I'm heading out the door very shortly, so no time to fit this in.

Signed up:
LKendter (skip Nov 23 to Nov 27)
ThERat (currently playing)
Pindicator (on deck) (skip Nov 19 to Nov 20) (skip Nov 24 to Nov 27) (skip Dec 1 to Dec 3)
Double Stack
Vol

Remember 10 turns per round. STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 hours to at complete.

ok, got it

I assume we are self researching the last needed tech now (philo). Then , I would head for alphabet so we can trade techs.

save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LK110AD-1000.Civ4SavedGame)

Pre-Turn
spreading Judaism will give us more money, ok that should be the way then
philosophy will take another 12 turns
Japan by the way has the alphabet but won't trade (why is that so?)
relation is +1

reassing a tile in Barcelona and get settler from 3 to 2 turns

1. 820AD
Madrid: spear -> sword

IT Victoria comes and wants to trade rice versus gold, it means happiness, so why not

2. 840AD
Barca settler -> continues court
send settler to the spot to settle, which is 1 tile south to Vol's dotmap since I want it to be able to grab
those hills in the south hat are otherwise useless
disband a warrior to reduce unit cost
increase science to 80% at -2gpt, philo now in 9

3. 860AD
Seville court -> lighthouse
found Salamca and as expected income drops, but to -2gpt only (from 1gpt)
the city has great shield potential later on, but needs more food first, set on granary so it can grow faster
disband another warrior
philo now in 7

4. 880AD
Santiago: Islamic temple -> lighthouse

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/lk1101000a.jpg
shall we call the game a loss now, or does it mean we need to conquer whoever dared to
wreck our plans, since philo is only 6 turns left, leave research on that

5. 900AD
Madrid sword -> sword (it's for those barb archers we want to beat)

6. 920AD
zzz

7. 940AD
Cordoba court -> jewish monastery
Toledo lighthouse -> library

increase science to 90% at -3gpt

Japanese come and demand we cancel our deal with Victoria
this is a feature I absolutely detest the about this game, we traded with 1 Civ to make them happy and the other Civ is unhappy and get's annoyed :nono:
There is no way to keep both happy, well

8. 960AD
zzz

IT we get philosophy, next alphabet for trading
we might want to change civis, but I leave them for now for discussion

9. 980AD
science back to 80% at 4gpt now, alphabet in 5

cycle through the cities and while pondering over the tile arrangement, the screen goes completely blank :gripe: :mad:
that's just great, because I did not save at all, the autosave dates back to 920AD
(so I replay all moves accodring to my memory of what happened)

10. 1000AD
Madrid sword -> chariot
Barcelona court -> granary
Seville lighthouse -> settler (we want to grab those clams in the west)
Santiago lighthouse -> library
increase science to 90% at -1gpt

and when I zoom out, I discover that the Japanese have conquered the north, there is no more barb town
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/lk1101000b.jpg

I am really disappointed that we missed our goal by four lousy turns. To be honest, I was debating if not rushing to philosophy was a mistake. I know better for the next try to not make the mistake of diverting to things such as iron working. Of course if the blasted "great" person had offered us philosphy...


that's just great, because I did not save at all, the autosave dates back to 920AD
There is a setting in the civ.ini file to change autosave from 4 turns to 1. This should help in the future.


Signed up:
LKendter (skip Nov 23 to Nov 27)
ThERat
Pindicator (on deck) (skip Nov 19 to Nov 20) (skip Nov 24 to Nov 27) (skip Dec 1 to Dec 3)
Double Stack (currently playing) swapping with Pindicator.
Vol

Remember 10 turns per round. STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 hours to at complete.

actually it's good that we tried this variant to see the effect. To be honest, I don't see that much of a positive thing.
I think 1 religion is good enough to make money and spread. Maybe I am already too narrow in my thinking, but I am already starting to go for a thing I call Oracle/CoL slingshot which gives you conficianism. This is viable espeically when not being spiritual. You can first concentrate on some worker techs, nuture your empire and then hunt that Oracle.

Here, we have been stuck with some meagre techs for a long time. I think soon, it is time for some war. Hopefully with alphabet, we can trade some, the Japanese surely don't like us.

Got the save. :)

The below are revised rules to avoid a lost post.

The following tactics are PROHIBITED:

1) The diplomatic demand exploit. You can demand a ton of stuff from a civ, ask for a counter-offer and get everything you want.

2) The diplomatic gold exploit. See the below thread for details. You can do such silliness as get iron for $1/turn.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=139169


Standard LK house rules:
1) Automation of any kind is strongly discouraged until the game is known better.

2) Go to orders beyond the end of your turn are not allowed.

3) Please complete your turn. At most the next player should have one unmoved unit such as a settler where you are unsure of its direction.

4) Please load the game while running civ. If you load by clicking the game you rename the leader. The leader name becomes part of the save, so I want to keep LK### as the leader name. I don't want to defeat a very useful feature.
If you do accidentally load by double clicking the save, then please use the Alt-D feature for civ details and rename the leader by the LK### value.


NEW
5) Don't edit your game results into a got it post. There is *no* notification of new activity. I have had SGs stalled waiting for a person to move, when the already did.

1000 AD: (Inherited turn) Workboat awakened and begins harvesting clams.

1010 AD: Move worker to iron for route connection.

1020 AD: Madrid finishes chariot. Starts on Courthouse. Salamanca populace accepts the teaching of Christ.

1030 AD: Salamanca borders explodes! umm..expands. IBT, Huayna Capac offers Archery and 40 gold for Meditation, we accept. Frederick offers Mathematics and 230 gold for Code of Laws, we accept.

1040 AD: Alphabets learned and we start on calendar. Barcelona finishes Ganary and start working on the first archer units.

1050 AD: Cordoba begins on Jewish Missionary.

1060 AD: Sevellie finishes Settler, begins on Ganary. Salamanca finshes Ganary, begins Courthouse.

1070 AD: Barcelona repeats it traing for archers. Seville finishes Ganary (wood chop assist). Starts training our navy (galley). Hypatia borned in Barcelona, moves to Madrid to establish the National Academy of Science at Madrid. Labor Civics changed to Slavery. Whips citzens at Madrid to finish building the Courthouse.

1080 AD: Calendar learned, starts on currency. Courthouse in Madrid completes and starts on ganary. Hypatia constructs the National Academy of Science in Madrid! Rushed Toledo for library, queue to start Islamic Temple.

1090 AD: Archer arrives at Cordoba, disband warrior unit.

1100 AD: Barcelona start on Jewish Monastery. Cordoba finishes Jewish Missionary and starts on Jewish Temple. Santiago finished Library, start on Hindu Temple. Talk with Hauyna Capac and traded Alphabet plus 70 gold for Construction. Get open borders and sent our Jewish missionary to Macchu Picchu to spread Jewish religion for more gold (we have Temple of Solomon at Barcelona).

State of our Empire:
http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/2716/lk1101100ad1is.jpg

And the save....

Summary:
National Academy of Science at Madrid
Since I haven't RTM yet, what does this do?


Signed up:
LKendter (skip Nov 23 to Nov 27)
ThERat
Pindicator (currently playing) (skip Nov 19 to Nov 20) (skip Nov 24 to Nov 27) (skip Dec 1 to Dec 3)
Double Stack (swapped with Pindicator)
Vol (on deck)

Remember 10 turns per round. STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 hours to at complete.

from the screenshot I can see that Toledo is unhappy. Does that have something to do with that pop rush? It makes cities unhappy so I am not a particular fan of rushes.
And by the way, it is currently building the wrong temple, isn't that supposed to be Jewish, but the screenie says Islamic

The Great Scientist can build an academy which increase science and culture. I used one at Madrid and gave it a name. :D

Toledo was unhappy when it grew to 9, so I pop rush it to see if it will drop down but I ended up keeping it unhappy, so it doesn't matter much and it suppose to be Islamic since there are no Jewish believer in that city.

Since we have alomst finished expanding (only the clam city is missing) I think we should take on someone. I would like to punish the Japanese for their bad attitude towards us. They refused to trade and even demanded stuff from us. Let's show them who is right. :mischief:

Hey, I'm back. Too bad we missed on the 7th... In retrospect, BW was a good choice, but IW might have been too much.

I do agree that gaining religions has a diminishing returns principal. It may be worthwhile for a cultural win to try and get all 7... but that may not even be worthwhile.

Got the save and will play tomorrow after work.

I gotta say, for SGs with all the ALT-TAB action I put down, running in windowed mode is the way to go. Don't have to deal with those long wait-times between alt-tabs.
There weren't any specific goals that people listed down, so I'm going to create some for my tenure:

1) Spread a main religion around. Whichever one is the most proficient in our lands is going to be the official state religion. Pacifism and a wide-spread state religion will be wonderful for my #2 goal.
--A sub-note here for later consideration. Since we have so many religions, I think Free Religion will be the eventual civic of choice. We will certainly be able to take advantage of the happiness and the science boost.
2) Pop more Great Prophets. We want those temples as soon as we can.
3) Fill in more city locations. We certainly have the economy to support more towns, and fishing towns will eventually more than make up the commerce they cost.

MM Salamnca for food.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LK110_AD1100_NoGrowth.jpg

See this button? When you don't want your city to grow any more, just hit this button. Nine times out of ten, the governor gets it right and you don't have to worry about it growing any more.
Of course, after saying that the governor doesn't cap our food and I have to do it manually... :rolleyes:

I am cancelling the scientists in Barcelona. What we want are Great Prophets to build our Great Temples. And we got a number still to build.

Time to check out the religious situation:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LK110_1100AD_Religion.jpg

Okay, we don't have any one dominant religion.

Here comes my most controversial move, and if anybody deems it :smoke: then so be it. At worst it is only 10 turns of this and we can change back to something a little less costly during the next turn set. But at my next opportunity (in 2 turns) I will set our Religious Civic to Pacifism because we want those great Prophets ASAP for our money-making temples.
Unfortunately, our two towns with priest specialists do not share a common religion! Well, we will fix that in time.

1) 1110AD
Seville: Galley -> Christian Temple (need to get it happy to grow again)

I send our settler west to claim the clams. How long was he just sitting in Seville? We had at least 2 good fishing locations for him to settle.
I also turn that Jewish missionary around and send him to Madrid. We need to get our own towns full of a religion, and Judaism is as good a candidate as any, especially with two civs already Jewish.

2) 1120AD
Currency comes in. Set research to Drama for the happiness (+1 happy face in every city for each 10% of culture on the slider), with an aim for Music and its culture buildings.
Madrid: Granary -> Buddhist Monastary

Change our state religion to Judaism.
Adopt Pacifism as our religious civic.

We only jump from -3gpt to -9gpt, which was smaller than I thought. Barcelona now pumps out great people twice as fast and hopefully so will Madrid soon.

3) 1130AD
Toledo: Islamic Temple -> Work Boat

Judaism is spread to Madrid.
Dyes hook up for happiness, and I can start growing some towns again.

Trade China Theology for Metal Casting + 10g
It's a bit in their favor, but we really could use the forges!
I tried gifting Victoria Monotheism so I could trade her Theology, but it didn't allow me to trade Theology afterwards, so I don't try this again with another civ.
Trade the Inca our clams for their Sugar. We will have a secon clam hooked up shortly and we need happiness more than healthiness at the moment.

I'm thinking wonders here right now. Two wonders that would be "wonder"ful to pick up would be Angkor Wat and Spiral Mineret. I'm deciding on the Angkor as our first choice, for the priest bonus. But we don't have stone, so this will be spendy!
Change Barcelona to a Forge.
Heck, I change pretty much every town to a forge.

After Barcelona finishes its Forge I would put it on Angkor Wat. If we all decide to do this (becuase we really want Great Prophets badly!) then we should adopt Organized Religion during the time that Barcelona is building the wonder. Heck, I should have it on now so that is my :smoke: of the day.

4) 1140AD
Found Murcia by the Clams. Currently set on a Granary; next build a Lighthouse. I need to find a worker (we need more!) to mine the hill beside it as well.

Science to 80%

5) 1150AD
Learn Drama. I shift gears and head to Civil Service. Beaurocracy will be nice, as well the irrigation spread.

Trade Victoria Theology and Drama for Feudalism and 30g (all).
Trade Qin Shi Huang Drama and Meditation for Compass.
Trade Cyrus Drama, Monotheism, and 50g for Literature and Horseback Riding.

6) 1160AD
Qin Shi Huang wants our Divine Right for Machinery. Ha, that's only a 400 beaker difference. So no trade, bub!

We hit 2,000,000 souls. Looking at the info screen, we have 2 of the 5 top cities! Madrid is #1 and Barcelona is #5.

7) 1170AD
China again, and now they want us to cancel all our Persian deals. This takes a bit of thought, as it's going to impact a lot of future relations. Both Qin Shi and Cyrus are the far side of the world from us. Both are different religions than our state. And neither have any current trades aside from Open Borders.
Since all that is a push, I'm going with power. Cyrus is the most powerful of the two. Do I ally with the powerful or do I not? Considering our military is very poor, I am alligning ourselves with the Persians, and tell Qin Shi that I cannot cancel my deals.

8) 1180AD
It's Qin Shi again! Doesn't this guy have a home to go to?
But he's bearing gifts, so I let him stay around for a while. We take his Silk for our Dye (we have more Dye being hooked up as we trade).
Victoria stops by and asks for Divine Right. I tell her to buzz off.

I forgot to do it last turn, but this turn I remember to change our religious civics to Organized Religion. This will aid our Forges in Barcelona and Madrid.

9) 1190AD
zzzz

10) 1200AD
Persia wants to trade Philosophy for Machinery. I'm saying no for now, because I still think we really want to build the Angkor Wat. However, if we decide that this is not a priority, it is probably worthwhile to trade it around.

Notes-

The plan I went for is to make the most of our multitude of religions. We are going to want to have all of those holy cities get their shrines.
So to get the shrines we need priests. Angkor Wat will help with priests. However, just spreading religions and building multiple temples in each town will do the same thing. I think that may actually be better, but that is open for discussion.
As soon as we are done building the necessary infrastructure (either Angkor or temples) switch to Pacifism so we can get those Prophets out twice as fast. Also, if we do not build the Wat, consider Spiral Mineret. It's basically an 8th holy shrine and will bring more money in from religion. However, it won't work if we don't have a state religion.

We need more workers for the jungle. When Civil Service comes in, a revolution to make use of the new techs.
We need to grow our towns better, too. I suggest we drap irrigation wherever we can. Especially since we want Priests for Prophets, we are going to need a good population in our cities.

Included is a map of our lands. Suggested fishing towns are the red dots.
Looks like we've expanded as far as we can without bashing some heads. However, Caravels may reveal an island or two out there.

Happiness is not an issue right now, except maybe in one or two towns. Just be sure to check F1 each turn to see which towns are close to their happiness. Healthiness is still very good and we shouldn't need to worry about it.

Signed up:
LKendter (on deck) (skip Nov 23 to Nov 27)
ThERat
Pindicator (skip Nov 24 to Nov 27) (skip Dec 1 to Dec 3)
Double Stack (swapped with Pindicator)
Vol (currently playing)

Remember 10 turns per round. STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 hours to at complete.

(0) 1200 AD
What an interesting set of goals, objectives, and plans to inherit. I probably would have gone with the Minaret myself, but I understand pindicator's points, and don't disagree strongly enough to change the build. Of course, we have too many other things to worry about, and lacking Stone or Industrious, the Wonder discussion is moot to me.

I think we can convert some of the other civs to Judaism.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LK110_1200AD_China_Religion.jpg
China has only has two Hindu cities, if we could add Judaism to those two cities and a few other, he'll switch.

Same with Persia and Taoism:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LK110_1200AD_Persia_Religion.jpg

Tokugawa would be an excellent target to convert, if it wasn't Tokugawa and we were unable to get Open Borders.

In demographics, we're #1 in production, food, and population. We're #2 in land area. So we're doing well on those metrics. :goodjob:

Since we're building Forges, Courthouses, or Wonders in every city, Organized Religion is indeed the correct religious civic. We need a lot more Jewish Missionaries though. I think we should be Serfdom instead of Slavery to gain 50% faster workers with the same (low) upkeep.

(1) 1210 AD Islam spreads to our western fishing town of Murcia. Quite a religious potpourri. :crazyeye:

(2) 1220 AD
We learn Civil Service, and gain the Bureaucracy government civic, but we must wait another turn until we can revolt again.

I trade for Machinery with Frederick, who is the most behind, giving him Literature, Drama, and Theology. This sums up to 1300 beakers for a 910 beaker tech, but its equivalent to the deal being offered by others: 1300 beaker Divine Right. Except this way, we're not giving away Divine Right yet (and the wonders), and we're fostering relations with our best friend, Frederick.

We start research on Optics (in 5) for Caravels and it leads to Astronomy.

We are now down Music to Victoria and up:
- Cyrus (Persia): Theology, Philosophy, Divine Right
- Qin Shi Huang (China): Philosophy, Divine Right
- Huanya Capac (Inca): Literature, Drama, Theology, Civil Service, Philosophy, Compass, Divine Right
- Tokugawa (Japan): Code of Laws, Philosophy, Drama, Theology, Civil Service, Divine Right
- Victoria (England): Divine Right
- Frederick (Germany): Civil Service, Philosophy, Divine Right

We can now irrigate through chain-farms, so I consider that in worker plans.

Barcelona builds a Forge. It will finish a Jewish Monastery in 2. As our leading commerce town, the 10% research boost is worth having (as well as Missionaries when not in Organized Religion, which I think was pindicator's original intent).
Serville builds a Forge. Harbor in 3 to boost that trade route income.

(3) 1230 AD
Toledo builds a Forge. I start a Harbor (3 turns) for the economic benefits (+50% to two 3-gold trade routes).

We (instanteously) revolt to Bureaucracy (from Barbarism) and Serfdom (from Slavery). Hooray Spiritual.

(4) 1240 AD
Barcelona finishes that Jewish Monastery. Now there are many options. National Epic in 14 for 100% Great Person birth rate. Angkor Wat in 27 (!!) for +1 shield priests. Sistene Chapel in 33 (!!) for +2 culture per specialist. Spiral Minaret in 30 turns (!!) which would add 1 gold to the benefit of each religious temple (of our state religion). There's the more mundane, like Theatre in 2, Market in 8, etc. But the choice is simple: Jewish Missionary in 2! :lol:

(5) 1250 AD
Harbor built in Seville. This gained +3 commerce per turn. While waiting for Judaism here, I start a Maceman in 4 turns. I'm not preparing for war, I'm preparing for peace. Our defenses currently look awfully inviting to Tokugawa, I'm sure.

Courthouse built in Salamanca. This gained us +1 gold per turn. Better than nothing, I guess. Forge in 15 turns, as this city has that Iron hill which could be put to good industrial use.

(6) 1260 AD
Barcelona completes the Jewish Missionary. I order up another in 3 turns.

Harbor finishes in Toledo. This gains us 4 commerce per turn. I start a Worker in 3, as this city also lacks the state religion.

Forge done in Cordoba. It has 2 turns left on a Jewish Temple, but I interrupt with a Jewish Missionary in 3.

Santiago builds a Forge. Lacking the state religion, it starts a Harbor in 5.

Victoria kicks off a Golden Age.
Victoria completes the Great Library. :eek: Nice combo.

Cyrus (Persia) now has Optics.
Qin Shi Huang (China) now has Music, Engineering, and Optics.
Tokugawa (Japan) now has Optics.
Victoria (England) now has Music, Engineering, and Optics.
No one is willing to trade except Cyrus, who wants double the beakers of Optics for the trade (Theology and Philosophy), when we're 2 turns away.

(7) 1270 AD
Madrid now has a Forge. Starts a Jewish Monastery in 3 turns.

Murcia builds a Granary. Starts a Lighthouse next like a good little fishing village.

(8) 1280 AD
Cyrus comes asking for Theology, for the sake of friendship. Only England and China have Theology at the moment, and it is a 650 beaker tech. Given the rash of AI trading we saw in 1260, I really don't want to hand this one off. At the same time, I remember LK's opinions on defiance from his many SGs that ... dealt with that topic. However, I think we'll have Cyrus eating out of our hands once we convert him to Judaism, and our tech lead is already eroding, and this isn't worth it. I tell him No an we take a -1 hit to our relations. (Discussion on this decision would be appreciated.)

We learn Optics. We start Engineering in 6 for those splendid Pikemen (should we need them) and the +1 road movement.

Our missionary spreads Judaism to Seville.

Victoria has learned Divine Right, and is now up both Music and Engineering us. No one is willing to trade us any techs at the moment, so its not like we can go get anything for Divine Right while we can. She seems (from the map) to have Marble, but not Stone. That puts Versailles in jeopardy, but not necessarily the Minaret or Angkor Wat.

(9) 1290 AD
Now the Inca demand we end our deals (Open Borders) with Persia. Man, we really need to get everyone believing in the same God so that these sorts of disagreements stop! :lol:

I tell him No. For the record, having Open Borders with everyone is getting us +2 relations, while telling everyone No, we won't break our Open Borders! get us -1, so its a winner overall.

Barcelona produces another Jewish Missionary. And starts another (in 2). :mischief:
Cordoba contributes a Jewish Missionary as well. And starts another (in 2).
Worker at Toledo. Start a Caravel in 4.
Seville finishes a Maceman. Starts a Jewish Monastery in 2.

Cyrus will trade Incense for Dyes. I do it.

(10) 1300 AD
Madrid builds a Jewish Monastery. Starts on a Jewish Missionary (what else?!) in 3.

We are able to use our missionary to add Judaism to Santiago, which now has 4 religions! We also succeed in adding Judaism to Salamanca (which just had Christianity).

Notes:
- There's a Hindu Temple in the queue at Santiago with 59/80 shields put into it from pindicator's reign.
- Only two cities lack Judaism, Toledo and Murcia. If we found any new cities, send a Jewish Missionary along.
- We need to start sending Missionaries outward, and converting Cyrus and Qin Shi Huang.
- I'm not sure any of the wonders are worth the shield cost without Industrious or Stone or Marble.
- Victoria could run away technologically. Is there any way we can counter this?
- We could use some Longbowmen.
- The gang of four Workers north of Cordoba are bringing irrigation to that Rice.
- We can build Windmills and Watermills now, and should do so.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LK110_1300AD_Religious_Status.jpg

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LK110_1300AD_Map_With_Irrigation.jpg

--- The Save --- (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/LK110_AD-1300.Civ4SavedGame)

Roster:
LKendter - Up!
ThERat - on deck
pindicator
Double Stack
Vol - just played

remember LK's opinions on defiance from his many SGs that ... dealt with that topic.
Defiance so far doesn't bother me as much in Civ4. It doesn't result in the auto-war that Civ3 did.

We could use some