First of all, let me dispel a few myths about 'parties' which may deter you from joining this one.

1.THIS IS NOT A VOTING BLOCK. We will not throw you out if you vote a different way from the party policy. We may try to persuade you one way or another, but it is your choice who to vote for.

2.WE DO NOT SEEK COMPLETE POWER. Yes, we would like to see our ideas taken into account, but we will not try to take over the demogame. That would mess up the whole thing.

OK, now the myths are dispelled, here's our manifesto.

1.Promote Democratic civics above others (e.g. representation, universal suffrage, emancipation, free religion e.t.c.)

2.Promote the overal welfare of citizens with happiness and health improvements (e.g. temples, granaries).

3. Promote the fairest possible system of government within the demogame.

4.Promote referendums in order to give citizens the greatest possible say in the government.

5.Stop unfree or undemocratic civics being used (e.g. police state, slavery).

6. Promote equality among citizens in the demogame, old and new.

7.Promote diplomacy above war, though war being a viable option against unreasonable or unfree enemies (e.g. uses slavery civic).

8.Promote socialist civics above others (e.g. state property), unless conflicting with number 1, in which case number 1 will take precedence.

9.Promote enviromental civics and buildings above others and oppose no-enviromentally friendly civics/buildings.

10.Oppose all forms of nuclear power.

OK, there's the manifesto. If anyone has any ideas for additions or amendments, please suggest them.

Current list of members:

Tboy
RoboPig
Alphawolf
Stilgar08
Illini Rule
Steely1
Alighieri
Question Mark
trundle
Sexton
5star_US
Comrade Bob
knorman
Jamppa
Leif

What is the view on Religion, or are we neutral? IF we have a posetive or neutral view on it count me in.

count me in!

I'll join.

-the Wolf

Since The Democratic Party don't get things going I'll join your new team, TBoy! Hopefullly you get more involved than other "party-founders" :mischief: (I'll change my "democrats-link" in my sig asap)

May I suggest to send all members of the democratic party a pm in order to raise their awareness of this group?

Stilgar08

Greetings, new members! I look forward to a long and profitable relationship.
I am the future, our view on religion is neutral. Generally, unless it affects something important, we will stay out. We do, however, favor the free religion civic (comes under 'free' civics).

Stilgar08, don't worry. I will be heavily involved. If anyone has any ideas to change the manifesto or just generally affecting the party, let me know. Change is good.

As long as state property is what we are for im in.

Stilgar08, don't worry. I will be heavily involved. If anyone has any ideas to change the manifesto or just generally affecting the party, let me know. Change is good.

You know the story 'bout the burnt child? ;) And: No, I don't worry! :)


As long as state property is what we are for im in.

state property CAN be a good thing depending on where we're coming from, I think...

Considering that by our very name we are socialist, we should support state property, among other reasons. I have added that to the manifesto in the first post.

Ok, now we seem to have a reasonable amount of members, we should start to think in advance. What should be our attitude to workers? Does anyone wish to change our attitude to religon? Why? Please, post any ideas you have, preferably with good reasoning.

I'd like to join please. I like the fact that you emphasize this party isn't a voting bloc. Seems to this newbie like all parties ought to emphasize that in what's billed as a "game of democracy."

Welcome, Steely1. :) Yes, I will emphasise that in every demogame. Too many people are worried 'They'll force me to vote for some psychopath'. Parties and citizens groups shouldn't do that, and if they do, well, the moderators will stop
it.
Still waiting for any suggestions for the party...

Ideas and suggestions? Not so much to add since you pointed out the major points very good! :goodjob: Ok, here we go:

First of all, let me dispel a few myths about 'parties' which may deter you from joining this one.

1.THIS IS NOT A VOTING BLOCK. We will not throw you out if you vote a different way from the party policy. We may try to persuade you one way or another, but it is your choice who to vote for. Agreed 100% :goodjob:

2.WE DO NOT SEEK COMPLETE POWER. Yes, we would like to see our ideas taken into account, but we will not try to take over the demogame. That would mess up the whole thing. Yup! 2 very important things you mentioned here!!!

7.Promote diplomacy above war, though war being a viable option against unreasonable or unfree enemies (e.g. uses slavery civic). extremely good thought!

---------
I took this over from the Democrats-thread since I would like this to be discussed for this party, so please lemme know what you think:

- Ensure minority protection, if possible - Clarification: The whole poll thing is fine and alright, but we should take care of those in our Civilization who don't have the majority and support them to get heard at least partially. This is especially important when there are big minorities (not for yes/no - polls of course) on long-term-influencial polls or when they are concerning tax-policy,
e.g. a poll like "80% science, rest taxes? rest culture?" and there's a 60% for taxes and 40% for culture - we should argue that the government in charge should go for 10/10...

----------
On a sidenote: The warmup is not running on the democratic level I would like to see the real game going later, but that's alright, because it was stated that the warmup is intended to give players a "feel" of what needs to be polled and what doesn't. What do you think about this?
After the warmup we should definitely stand in for voting on major decisions AND minor ones as far as these are considered, IMHO...

Finally, my kind of party.:D
Sign me up, please.:cool:

I think that economically, State Property and Environmentalism should be favoured (depending on the situation). Perhaps adding a full list of civics we are for and against would be a good idea?

As for religion, I think neutrality is the way to go, except for promoting Free Religion and opposing Theocracy and Organized Religion (where certain people are oppressed).

At last, ideas!:)

Originally posted by Stilgar08
I took this over from the Democrats-thread since I would like this to be discussed for this party, so please lemme know what you think:

- Ensure minority protection, if possible - Clarification: The whole poll thing is fine and alright, but we should take care of those in our Civilization who don't have the majority and support them to get heard at least partially. This is especially important when there are big minorities (not for yes/no - polls of course) on long-term-influencial polls or when they are concerning tax-policy,
e.g. a poll like "80% science, rest taxes? rest culture?" and there's a 60% for taxes and 40% for culture - we should argue that the government in charge should go for 10/10...

Good idea. Everone should have a large say.

Originally posted by Alighieri
I think that economically, State Property and Environmentalism should be favoured (depending on the situation). Perhaps adding a full list of civics we are for and against would be a good idea?

Hmmm, interesting idea. I don't think e should list out for every single civic, but state our most favoured and least favoured in each category e.g. In the government category, favour universal suffrage, discourage police state. Once we agree on what to put in for each category, I'll add it to the manifesto. Please post your views on this.

As for religion, I think neutrality is the way to go, except for promoting Free Religion and opposing Theocracy and Organized Religion (where certain people are oppressed).

Good point. Stick with freedom and neutrality as far as religion is concerned. That makes for greater democracy.

Keep the idea flowing in!

I just wanted to let you know that so far I'm really pleased with how this party works out! :goodjob:

@the other members: anything to add? Agree to the whole thing 100%??

Err, TBoy, how about implementing the new thoughts (although there were only a few) into the first post??

Err, fellow members of the DSP: Nothin' to say to the suggested changes? Any more Ideas right now? :confused:

I guess real work of the DSP will start during poll-times for the real DG, not much earlier, right? Or does someone disagree?

:bump:

Implemented Enviromentalism clause into the first post.
New topic for discussion: What should be our stance on Nukes? Should we be for, against or neutral on the matter? Please post your views on this.

Against Nukes, they are not honorable and *if* we have to use them to win we screwed up in the game long ago. I however have no problem with Nuke power plants.

-the Wolf

I have a prob with nuke power plants as well and am against it.
Using nukes is out of the question for me (except there really really is no other choice) I'm strongly for not building the Manhattan Project by our own...

Looks like people are generally against nukes, so I have added that into the manifesto. We seem split on nuclear power plants, please post your views on them, whatever they may be!

IMHO there is no way you can win a game in Monarch or even Prince levels following that.

If police state is needed use it, if enviromentalism is not the best option don't use it, use a nuke to prevent other civ from wining, etc.

This is not real life, guys. I think that there are more difference between Civ strategy and real life that similarities.

Taking the best decision in each moment is better that constraining yourselves beforehand.

You are right: This is not real life! This is a DG with roleplay-elements. There you have it. And I tend to disagree at least partially: It is absolutely possible to win without nuking others to hell or using police-state! I did it so there you go. Many ways lead to Rome (German idiom) and the DSP offers one of it.

Furthermore I really welcome your pragmatic approach and your criticism since another goal we seek to achieve is free democracy and FREE SPEECH! What would you do without us?? ;)

:nuke: :nuke: I dunno what :nuke: your big problem :nuke: with nukes are... :nuke: :nuke:

:nuke:
*Man'O'Action glows faintly as he sits down*
:nuke:

I feel a little woozy.

:nuke: :nuke:

Many ways lead to Rome (German idiom)
To continue our discussion on idioms we had a while the American/English version is "All roads lead to Rome." But I do believe that it started as a quote at some time.

-the Wolf

To continue our discussion on idioms we had a while the American/English version is "All roads lead to Rome." But I do believe that it started as a quote at some time.

-the Wolf

I beleive that 'all roads lead the rome' is somewhat historicly correct (don't know if it was used that much though), since all the roman roads DID lead to rome... saw that in history... ay... 2 years ago i think :) The roman road system was pretty good and connected all the land to it's capital (i even vaguely remember the picture of how they were built).

Ah yes I remember it too! We had one of those huge maps in Latin class showing the Roman empire at its height, including all of the roads. And ideed, they all led to Rome... ;)

All the roads in the known world did lead to Rome, but what about the roads in China? :mischief:

-the Wolf

Well, by roads, they meant the roman roads (wich were wuite sturdy roads that still exist if I remember... perhaps because they were like a meter deep...).

I just realised this is a party's thread... oh well, said what others would have said anyways...

Why the stop in discussion? We still aren't decided on nuclear plants.

You're right Tboy we should get back on topic: I believe the Nuclear Plant to be the middle choice for power plant; a Hydro Plant is better but a Coal Plant is much worse. So if we can't build Hydro Plants we should build Nuclear Plants.

-the Wolf

Putting my personal preference up:
Hydro Plant
Nuclear Plant (Only if we really need extra production, though, don't really like the chance of a meltdown)
Coal Plant (nasty, polluting, generally bad.

I tend to almost never build coal and very rarely nuclear plants therefore I couldn't agree more, TBoy!
What about nuclear weapons? I'm against it and we should (at least IMHO) go for not pushing towards nukes as DSP-politics (meaning no Manhattan Project building or pushing for researching fission without other reasons than nukes...

Since there's a lot going on there; I'd like to encourage every member of the DSP to participate in the debate about our future government in the stickied threads:

Alphawolf's tri (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=146657)

ravensfire "classic" (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=146769)

Ginger Ale's Flexible government (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=142948)

Bring some time-the whole stuff gets increasingly complicated! But especially because of that you should dig in! :)

You don't have to reply to the whole points in the posts; it's enough to state your opinion and suggestions where you have them ;) .
I feel that this is a major decision (Well, of course!) and so hereby I'd like my fellow DSP-members to get involved! (even if you not on my side there! :) )

Thanks,
Stilgar

I would like to quietly ask that you remove my name from the member list, as I am no longer a practiceing member of the group.

Hello
I'd like to join the party.

Hi there Question Mark! Welcome! :band: :D Not only to the DSP but to civfanatics as well!

TBoy will add you to the memebers list, but I know from another thread that he's really busy right now so please be patient

On politics:
I've been in the poll-forum and saw the Party voting the flexible government as a "voting block". Since this is not a voting block I only would like to recommend to vote there (stick to your own opinion! ;) )! It's important which government type will be chosen... I hope, participation in the polls will rise...

Stilgar

Thanks. Great party . Love the music (:band: :D :rockon:)
On the issue of power plants: I would like a complete ban on nuclear power (not just because of the meltdown chanse, but also because of problems with nuclear waste). Coal plants should only be built in cities with high positive health, and even then be kept to a minimum (i do not want global warming). The Three Gorges Dam is in my opinion the best power solution, and should have high research and build priority.

Unless anyone says different, on Monday I will add into the manifesto an anti nuclear power clause.
I'll be away for the weekend and most of the Christmas Holidays, but I'll be back in January by the latest.

Unless anyone says different, on Monday I will add into the manifesto an anti nuclear power clause.
I'll be away for the weekend and most of the Christmas Holidays, but I'll be back in January by the latest.

I say different. ;) See earlier posts.

-the Wolf

Hi, I am actually away at the moment, in Germany, but I still have access to the internet.
I know you have objected, Alphawolf, but as a Democratic Society we must follow the wills of the majority, which is currently against nuclear power. Sorry about that.
In order to make things fairer, I have set up a poll in the Demogame Poll section which will run until the 31st of December, 2005. All party members are encouraged to vote on this controversial issue.

Not true, a party can be democratic while not following the wills of the majority. Democracy also protects minorities.

Yes, but if the interests of the minority conflict with the interests of the majority, the wills of the majority take precedence.

In case you have not heard, voting is currently on for which government type to use here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=148415). Please vote now to ensure the futur security of our nation.

On the issue of power plants: I would like a complete ban on nuclear power (not just because of the meltdown chanse, but also because of problems with nuclear waste). Coal plants should only be built in cities with high positive health, and even then be kept to a minimum (i do not want global warming). The Three Gorges Dam is in my opinion the best power solution, and should have high research and build priority.

Couldn't agree more :goodjob: !

I already voted in this regard in the polls-section

I have to agree on the nuclear issue, I finally got to the modern age :woohoo: (I usually play as a rabid monkey and either win or lose before the industrial age). I did not know that Fraxis had screw up the Nuclear Power Plants to such a degree. In there current form I agree that they must be banned. I reserve the right to change my opinion and ask for a poll at a later date should Fraxis fix this defect. Until then I withdraw my objection.

-the Wolf

Fine, Alphawolf. Your no vote in the poll will be discounted, and we will consider your vote to be yes from now on, unless you change your mind again before the 31st.

Sign me up. =)

Question: Can we join multiple parties? Just wondering because I founded a party myself, but I think this would be a group I'd be interested in also.

Question: Can we join multiple parties? Just wondering because I founded a party myself, but I think this would be a group I'd be interested in also.

Yes, I'm in several.

-the Wolf

then sign me up :)

I request to join The Democratic Socialist Party. :hatsoff::goodjob:

I'll join, you guys share my views in the best way.

On behalf of TBoy I'd like to welcome all of you!!! I'm happy this group grows since we share importnat views and will be a counterweight to others threatening democracy! :)

Count me in!

I'll join! The manifesto seems great and my clansman Jamppa just joined too :D

However I would like to initiate some more discussion on economic civics and especially on where we stand with free market. Considering we are socialists and not communist it should be a valid claim to say that free market would in some situations be more beneficial for the well-being of the people. The manifesto in general seems to be a bit hazy on the matter of economy.

Great party alltogether.

Was Stilgar08 only one nominated for any of the positions which are voted on at the moment? If so, I missed it. Voted Stil for the position of the public defender of the court. :king: "I am the future" was in the lead however so people clicky clicky vote for Stilgar08! The representative of the rightful Democratic Socialist Party! :goodjob:

I'm part of this party and running for President. ;)

-the Wolf

i'm running for chief justice!

Just got back from holiday, and we're already having elections! :eek:
That was quick...
Welcome to all our new members, please post any ideas you have for the party, I would love to hear them.
Good luck to Robopig and Alphawolf in their elections. Do our party proud.
Tboy

You forgot the Stilgar is running?

-the Wolf

I'm part of this party and running for President. ;)

-the Wolf

:blush: :blush: Well I guess I can justify not voting for Wolf with the fact that he has his own party, The IIP :)

Voted for RoboPig though (I think :mischief: ). Our "automatic bacon" had quite a campaign too. Respect for that...

:blush: :blush: Well I guess I can justify not voting for Wolf with the fact that he has his own party, The IIP :)

Voted for RoboPig though (I think :mischief: ). Our "automatic bacon" had quite a campaign too. Respect for that...
here, have this complimentary bumper sticker
"The R stands for rights"

Bumper sticker? Excellent! :lol:

:blush: :blush: Well I guess I can justify not voting for Wolf with the fact that he has his own party, The IIP :)

A big party the IIP is. :) You did notice though that both Presidential candidates are IIP members, yes? ;)

-the Wolf

A big party the IIP is. :) You did notice though that both Presidential candidates are IIP members, yes? ;)

:D It seems like everyone's a member of the IIP :goodjob:
But as we allready know there's no question who's going to be the president so I voted for Man'o'action to keep things at least a bit interesting :)

"Me want a lumbermill!"

However I would like to initiate some more discussion on economic civics and especially on where we stand with free market. Considering we are socialists and not communist it should be a valid claim to say that free market would in some situations be more beneficial for the well-being of the people. The manifesto in general seems to be a bit hazy on the matter of economy. In my opinion, free market is more beneficial for the well-being of the people only when the alternative is an even less controlled economy (decentralization), or an economy controlled by a non-democratic state (mercantilism or state property combined with a government civic other than universal suffrage or representation). Environmentalism is my favourite, as it is solidaric not only with today's humanity, but with future generations and non-human life as well. I do hope, however, that the DSP has no problems with internal disagreements. Far to many socialist groups have practised exclutions and "democratic sentralism".

Alphawolf, why doesn't your sig include "Member of the Democratic Socialist Party", when it does include "PAX AMERICANA Basileus of the Inlightened Imperialist Party", "Valde Alio of the Culturalists" and "Member of the National Religious Organization (NRO)"? Can we trust you to be a democratic socialist president if you win the election, or will the interests of IIP, NRO and the Culturalists always be more important?

The Voting Results on Nuclear Power Ban:

Yes:5 votes
No: 1 vote

An anti-nuclear power clause has been added to our manifesto

(note: although the results seem different, Alphawolf changed his vote).

In my opinion, free market is more beneficial for the well-being of the people only when the alternative is an even less controlled economy (decentralization), or an economy controlled by a non-democratic state (mercantilism or state property combined with a government civic other than universal suffrage or representation). - -

I respect your opinion. I am just a huge fan of that +1 trade route :) It's very good we're having this kind of discussion...

I respect your opinion. I am just a huge fan of that +1 trade route:) So am I. But I think we should consider what is most in line with our political opinions (roleplayed or real), and not what is most powerful in game terms (environmentalism rarely is , but I still support it:) ). Besides, sometimes the spearman wins :spear:.

No to powergaming, yes to roleplay!

No to powergaming, yes to roleplay!

I hear you, mate! That's actually the reason why I'm not a member of any other party in this demogame. Gotta keep the role! Long live the Democratic Socialist Party! :D

I just wanted to bring it to everyone's attention that Stilgar08 is being somewhat accused of foul play for being elected the Public Defender of the Court. I myself as a strong supporter of everyone in our party will have none of it! :cool:
I am very close to demanding a public apology as stated in the law of the triumvirate from those responsible for these accusations :D

Okay, I'll give them some benefit of a doubt. Nonetheless I'm sure Stil would do no such thing...

Don't start pointing fingers at anyone. The CFC-Staff is investigating what is going on since members asked that of us. While that investigation lasts any accusations (of foul play or otherwise) are not tolerated.

When the investigations are finished you will notice what has been discovered.

If you have questions; PM me or Chieftess. That's a lot fairer to everyone than these innuendo's.
OK ?

Wow dude. That's fine with me :) Wasn't pointing fingers more than I was joking...

Ok, maybe I'm out of fun today ( and a bit thin-skinned) after seeing those news, but I didn't think that was very funny, Sexton...

But for clarification please check this (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=3527444&postcount=43) and this (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=3532151&postcount=44) out... (posts #43 and #44 on page3 from this thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=150561))

Stilgar08

Wow. This is the first time I see these news. I just thought there'd be no way someone would go ahead and rig the election. However this seems to be the case... :sad: :mad:
If I would've known that was the case I wouldn't have made any jokes... :blush:
I'm very disappointed how the start of this game turned out :sad:

We all are. Noone wanted it to have this start.

At least the rotten eggs are not sponsored anymore, like what happened in DG V term V, so at least all parties have learnt to avoid subsidizing such speciments.

At least the rotten eggs are not sponsored anymore, like what happened in DG V term V, so at least all parties have learnt to avoid subsidizing such speciments.

That's interesting: What happened in DG V, Provo???


P.S.: I think work gets done in other threads right now? I encourage everybody of the DSP to post links to the most important discussions here!
(I think the dividing into different departments is absolutely necessary but leads to more complexity and therefore confusion.. - If you think something is of higher importance I would like to know by checking my DSP-HQ (and in my case my IIQ-HQ as well ;) )

Cheers,
Stilgar08

I encourage everybody of the DSP to post links to the most important discussions here!

I second that motion. Right now we're having a runoff election for Secretary of War between Donovan Zoi and Chieftess, here:

Term 1 - Runoff Election for Secretary of War (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=151960)

Edit: And that was a tie too :) So now there's the second runoff election (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=152829).

Dear party members, activity please :)
Check out the discussion threads for capitol city placement and early science rate settings on the Citizens subforum...

Capitol City Placement and Name (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=154185)

Presidential Discussion-Get rich or Get smart? (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=154520)

Almost forgot; the early exploration discussion:
Secretary of War - Early Exploration (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=154564)

(I seem to have become some kind of Secretary for the party... Well, I don't mind at all :) )

EDIT: Added exploration thread and the URLs...

Sign me up

Also, if Minister of internal security is a job, I will run for it.

I am no state capitalist, but I believe that far too many a commune has been thwarted by infighting or larger imperialist forces, I encourage a strong standing army for each city so that safety and order are ensured, yet I don't want a police state, I merely want our borders safe. (I may be talking about minister of war, but alert me to any other offices I could go for)

Greetings, Leif. Always good to see a new member.

Stuff! I've been busy at the university and didn't have the time to log in :(
On the bright side I got my new com up 'n' running so now i'm actually going to be able to download the demogame saves and not a moment too soon - it seems a lot has happened... Anyone care to fill me in on things? :)

Sorry Sexton, can't help you, I need filling in myself.

We havent been very active in deciding how to poll together... Or is this time of the history too early for democratic-socialist party to involve? I'm trusting that we're all just voting by our manifesto - doing the right thing.

Well, what should our first course of action be? Collectivist economy measures or democratic movements?

Democracy movements first. We should press to change to a Republic government as soon as possible.