I corrected a few things and added more offices, please tell me what you think.

The Government of the Triumvirate

Article 1 The Federal Government

A) The Legislative Branch
I. This branch consists of one house known as Citizens Assembly.

II. The Citizens Assembly shall consist of all citizens of the Nation except those holding elected offices that term. The Citizens Assembly shall be presided over by an elected Speaker.
IIA. The Powers and Duties of the Speaker:
1. The Speaker shall be in charge of all floor votes.
2. A floor vote may be called for by any member of the Citizens Assembly.
A. To call a floor vote a member of the Citizens Assembly shall PM the Speaker. If the member is unable to PM the Speaker for what ever reason the Member shall post where appropriate.
B. After being asked to call a floor vote the Speaker shall post a thread in the discussions.
C. If at least ten other members post saying they agree to have a vote on that issue the Speaker shall open a poll.
D. The poll will have three options: Yes/No/Abstain.
E. If the Yes votes number over 50% the measure shall have passed; if the Yes votes number exactly 50% or less the measure shall have failed.
3. The Deputy Speaker shall be the runner up in the election.
4. The Speaker may not be impeached.
III. Only the Citizens Assembly may decide six things: Declare War/Make Peace/Alliance, to change civics, to begin construction on a Great Wonder/National Wonder/Project, what to do with great people, a change in Taxes (the science/treasury meter) higher that 10% no more than once every 5 turns, and where to build new cities.

IV. The Executive Branch must enforce a vote of the Citizens Assembly even if they disagree with the decision.

V. The Citizens Assembly may bring an impeachment/no confidence vote against the Triumvirate at anytime.
VA. An impeachment will be held as such: any member of the Legislative branch may start a poll to ask for the impeachment of the Triumvirate (either all three leave office or none of them). This poll will be open 48 hours only, for the motion to carry at least 3/4 (75%) must have voted in favor. If the motion is carried another poll will be set up the same manner and if in it, impeachment wins the Triumvirate is removed from office.


B) The Executive Branch
I. This branch consists of the Triumvirate and any and all elected and appointed Cabinet Officials.
IA. The Triumvirate will consist of the President, Secretary of State, and the
Minister of War.
IB. The Cabinet Officials will be any office that we the citizens deem
necessary to have that is not included as part of the Triumvirate, the
Judiciary, or a Gubernatorial office. The Cabinet shall consist of the Censor Minister of Interior, Minster of Culture, Minister of Science, and Director of Intelligence.

II. The Powers and Duties or the Triumvirate.
IIA. The Powers and Duties of the President
1. The President nominates candidates from the nomination pool the Secretary of State, Minister of War, and the Chief Justice of the Court and also chooses the Special Prosecutor.
2. During the Turnchat the President may order the ending of the game for a poll vote, i.e.: war, peace, change in Tax, change in Civics, where to build a new cities, or any thing else he deems appropriate.
3. Only the President may ask the Citizens Assembly for a Declaration of WAR.
4. The units the President controls
A. The President shall control all Settler and the units assigned to them.
B. The President shall control all naval units.
5. The President may with the unanimous consent of the Triumvirate ask the Citizens Assembly for permission to begin work on a Great Wonder/National Wonder/Project.
6. During War time the President may preempt the control of workers and choose the improvements to be constructed in Cities.
7. The President shall be elected in a poll of all citizens, if the candidate with the most votes receives less that 1/3 (33%) of the votes a runoff will be held unless the winning candidate has 10% more votes that the candidate with the second highest number of votes. Said runoff will be between the two candidates with the highest number of votes.
A. The nominations for President may not be self nominations.
B. Each Citizen may nominate only one Citizen for President.
8. The President shall have the entire power of the Triumvirate for the first turn.
IIB. The Powers and Duties of the Secretary of State
1. The Secretary of State shall have complete control of the Foreign policy of our nation with the exception of War/Peace/Alliance, trade/sell/buy of techs, and trade of cities.
A. The Secretary of State needs the permission of the Citizens Assembly: War/Peace/Alliance or the giving away of one of our Nation's cities.
B. The Secretary of State needs the unanimous permission of the Triumvirate to accept a city or to trade/sell techs.
C. Secretary of State needs the permission of the President to buy techs or in any deal in which we loose more than 2/5 (20%) of our Treasury.
2. The nominations and election of The Secretary of State shall be held as follows
A. All nominations for Secretary of State will be self nominations.
B. The President shall take at least 5 but no more that ten of self nominations and hold a poll for the next term's Secretary of State.
C. The Secretary of State shall be elected in a poll of all citizens, if the candidate with the most votes receives less that 1/3 (33%) of the votes a runoff will be held unless the winning candidate has 10% more votes that the candidate with the second highest number of votes. Write in candidates are allowed in the general election but not in the runoff. Said runoff will be between the two candidates with the highest number of votes.
IIC. The Powers and Duties of the Secretary of War
1. The Secretary of War shall have complete control of all military land units with the exception of garrisons under the control of Governors.
A. The Secretary of War may move any military land units anywhere in our territory, unclaimed territory, enemy territory, or allied territory.
2. Outside of our territory or enemy territory the Secretary of War need the President's permission to move beyond a certain boundary of our borders.
A. The Secretary of War needs the unanimous permission of the Triumvirate to attack an enemy city.
B. The Secretary of War my not attack a city or unit of a neutral or allied Civilization.
3. The Secretary of War shall have complete control of all air units.
4. During War time the Secretary of War may take control of any unit assigned as a garrison to a City as long as the city if left with at least one left.
5. The nominations and election of the Secretary of War shall be held as follows
A. All nominations for Secretary of War will be self nominations
B. The President shall take at least 5 but no more that ten of self nominations and hold a poll for the next term's Secretary of War.
C. The Secretary of War shall be elected in a poll of all citizens, if the candidate with the most votes receives less that 1/3 (33%) of the votes a runoff will be held unless the winning candidate has 10% more votes that the candidate with the second highest number of votes. Write in candidates are allowed in the general election but not in the runoff. Said runoff will be between the two candidates with the highest number of votes.

III. The Cabinet
IIIA. The Cabinet shall consist of, in order of seniority, the Censor, Minister of Interior, Minster of Culture, Minister of Science, and Director of Intelligence.
IIIB. The Powers and Duties of the Censor:
1. The Censor be in charge of maintaining the Census and shall be the Official in charge of all elections.
2. With the help of a Moderator the Censor shall make sure that only citizens voted in an election and shall be responsible for the official results of an election and for validating an election.
3. The nomination and election for the Censor shall be held as follows:
A. Nominations for Censor can be self nominations or a candidate can be nominated by someone else.
B. The Censor shall be the candidates with the highest number of votes.
C. The Deputy Censor shall be the runner up in the election.
4. The Censor may not be impeached.
IIIC. The Powers and Duties of the Minister of Interior:
1. The Minister of the Interior shall be in control of all workers not assigned to Governors.
2. The Minister of the Interior shall work with the Governors and create a plan of which city improvements shall be constructed in a city and when.
3. The Minister of the Interior shall keep track of the resources in our territory and where they are.
4. These powers may be preempted by the President during War time.
5. The nomination and election for the Minister of the Interior shall be held as follows:
A. Nominations for Minister of the Interior can be self nominations or a candidate can be nominated by someone else.
B.The Minister of the Interior shall be the candidates with the highest number of votes.
C. The Deputy Minister of the Interior shall be the runner up in the election.
6. The Minister of the Interior may not be impeached.
IIID. Powers and Duties of the Minister of Culture:
1. The Minister of Culture shall keep track of the Culture buildings in each city, the Culture of each city, and the religions in each city throughout the Empire. And shall may this information available to any citizen upon request.
2. The Minister of Culture shall be in charge of all Missionaries.
3. The Minister of Culture may require a culture building to built in a City once every 20 turns. And what type of building it shall be.
4. The nomination and election for the Minister of the Culture shall be held as follows:
A. Nominations for Minister of the Culture can be self nominations or a candidate can be nominated by someone else.
B. The Minister of the Culture shall be the candidates with the highest number of votes.
C. The Deputy Minister of the Culture shall be the runner up in the election.
5. The Minister of the Culture may not be impeached.
IIIE. Powers and Duties of the Minister of Science:
1. The Minister of Science shall choose what technology will be researched.
2. The Minister of Science shall keep a list of at least three technologies that are to be researched next and in what order.
3. This list is subject to the review and revision of the Citizens Assembly.
4. The nomination and election for the Minister of the Science shall be held as follows:
A. Nominations for Minister of the Science can be self nominations or a candidate can be nominated by someone else.
B. The Minister of the Science shall be the candidates with the highest number of votes.
C. The Deputy Minister of the Science shall be the runner up in the election.
5. The Minister of the Science may not be impeached.
IIIF. Powers and Duties of the Director of Intelligence:
1. The Director of Intelligence shall keep records of all known Empires. The cities, religion, military units, wonders, and civics of those Empires. Records shall also be kept of the size, religion, improvements, and anything else deemed necessary about their cities.
2. The Director of Intelligence shall have complete control of all spies.
3. The nomination and election for the Director of Intelligence shall be held as follows:
A. Nominations for Director of Intelligence can be self nominations or a candidate can be nominated by someone else.
B. The Director of Intelligence shall be the candidates with the highest number of votes.
C. The Deputy Director of Intelligence shall be the runner up in the election.
4. The Director of Intelligence may not be impeached.

IV. Vacancies
IVA. Should a vacancy occur in the Triumvirate the President shall take over the duties of the vacant office. Should the President be the vacant office the Secretary of State shall take over the duties of the President. Should both the offices of President and Secretary of State be vacant the Secretary of War shall take over the duties of both offices. Should the entire Triumvirate be vacant the most senior of the Cabinet members shall take over the duties of Triumvirate.
IVB. Should any vacancy occur in the Cabinet the Deputy shall take over the duties of that office. The word acting shall be included in the title of office.


C) The Judicial Branch
I. The Judicial Branch will the known as The Court, it will consist of three Judges, a Chief Justice, two Associate Justices an Advocate pool and Special Prosecutor pool.
IA. The Powers and Duties of the Chief Justice:
1. The Chief Justice shall oversee and rule on all court cases.
2. The Chief Justice shall with the help of the Associate Justices insure that no political parties gain control of government in a way that citizens not of this party can not hold office or have a say in government.
3. The nominations and election of the Chief Justice shall be held as follows:
A. All nominations for Chief Justice will be self nominations.
B. The President shall take at least 5 but no more that ten of self nominations and hold a poll for the next term's Chief Justice.
C. The Chief Justice shall be elected in a poll of all citizens, if the candidate with the most votes receives less that 1/3 (33%) of the votes a runoff will be held unless the winning candidate has 10% more votes that the candidate with the second highest number of votes. Said runoff will be between the two candidates with the highest number of votes.
IB. The Powers and Duties of the Associate Justices
1. The Associate Justices shall rule on all court cases.
2. The Associate Justices shall work with the Chief Justice to Police political parties.
3. The nominations and elections for the Associate Justices shall be held as follows.
A. Nominations for Associate Justices can be self nominations or some can nominate you.
B. The Associate Justices shall be the two candidates with the highest number of votes.
IC. No Judge may be impeached.
ID. For the first term there shall only be one judge and that shall be an Associate Justice.

II. The Advocate and Special Prosecutor will not be elected offices, but shall be selected from pools of names. A new pool is opened each turn. Those citizens who wish to serve in this position and not holding and elected office this turn shall put their names into said pool. Citizens may put their name into both pools.
IIA. The Advocate pool is where the citizens who wish to serve as defense put their names. Any citizen who is accused of a crime may select their advocate from the pool.
IIB. The Special Prosecutor pool is where the citizens who wish to serve as the prosecution put their names. When a citizen is accused of a crime the President shall select a prosecutor from the pool.


D) Term Limits
I. Anyone may serve in an elected Federal Government office as many times as they want, but may not serve two terms in a row. This does not apply to deputies.



Article 2 The Local Government

A) Governors
I. Governors are the elected officials that run cities
IA. The Powers and Duties of the Governors:
1. The Governors may move any workers or garrison units assigned to them anywhere in there city's radius.
2. The Governor shall work with the Minister of the Interior to decide which improvement shall be built.
3. A Governor of a city shall be elected by the citizens that reside in that city.
A. In a Gubernatorial election the candidate with the greatest number of votes wins.
4. In cities without at least three citizens residing in them, the Governor shall be appointed by the Minister of the Interior.
5. Governors may not be impeached.

This in no way reflects upon the other Founding Fathers, etc. Please tell me what you think.

The powers of some of the positions change depending on whether we are at war or not.

I've heard from a couple of people that we should have a government that changes depending on which civics we are using, I could try to incorporate that if you want to give me some ideas/examples.

-the Wolf

Nice work! Here are two questions/clarifications I'm looking for.

1. I'm confused about the procedures of war. Does the citizens assembly initiate a vote to go to war or does the president?

2. In what situations would there be workers not under the control of a city governor? It seems like most of the time, workers are in one city or another. Is the minister of the interior in control of those workers outside of a nation's borders?

Also, I'm assuming that all members may participate in all elections-including members of the triumvirate, cabinet and governors.

Thanks!

Nice work! Here are two questions/clarifications I'm looking for.

1. I'm confused about the procedures of war. Does the citizens assembly initiate a vote to go to war or does the president?

Either, the President can ask for a Declaration of War or the Citizens Assembly can vote for spontaneously.

2. In what situations would there be workers not under the control of a city governor? It seems like most of the time, workers are in one city or another. Is the minister of the interior in control of those workers outside of a nation's borders?

I'm open to ideas here. Some workers will need to be under the control of the Minister of the Interior to connect cities and improve parts of the empire not inside a city's radius, since the Governor will only be concerned with their own cities.


Also, I'm assuming that all members may participate in all elections-including members of the triumvirate, cabinet and governors.

I don't quite understand what you're asking here, but yes citizens may vote in any election and run in any election (may only run for President if someone nominates them first).

-the Wolf

I don't quite understand what you're asking here, but yes citizens may vote in any election and run in any election (may only run for President if someone nominates them first).

-the Wolf

Basically I was just wondering if candidates (like the president) can vote for themselves or if they must abstain.

Basically I was just wondering if candidates (like the president) can vote for themselves or if they must abstain.

Yes, they can.

-the Wolf

Thank you Alpha for regaling us with another one of your great lawyer ideas. :lol: In all honesty I like this one, especially the party about the Court being able to control parties.

-KL

First of all: Great work and big effort, Alpha! Thank you for that! :)
My 20 cents (not 2 cents because this thing is so long... :D ) :


IIB. The Powers and Duties of the Secretary of State.

The Secretary of State needs the unanimous permission of the Triumvirate to accept a city or to trade/sell techs.

We might have a "mechanical" problem here: In game other civ's often show up and "demand" something and it's either "do or forget about it": No time for asking the triumphirate. Especially when you don't play the game internet-based, but get it downloaded and uploaded again... Otherwise: Every member of the government (ok ok, maybe I'm slightly exaggerating here) has to be online and they have to play together real-time-wise...
The Secretary of state should have permission to accept or decline demands without asking the other members of the triumvirate in order to ensure playability... (BTW: How should this work anyway without being online in the game together?? To me this seems to be a must in order to participate at least in the triumvirate?? I would welcome your thoughts on this (maybe p.m. me since it's a little off-topic here). Personally I would like to eneable also players without Internet-access while playing to be part of the triumvirate, but how??...


A. All nominations for Secretary of State will be self nominations.


A general question here: This is included quite often: Why do there have to be "only" self-nominations? IMHO, you should be able to nominate someone anytime for any job without making this necessary like when running for president (this is good, btw). We should put into the constitution (or whatever law-layer you want) that nomination for other people

1. have to be accepted within X days of the nomination (2 days maybe)
2. that the "nominator" has to send the nominated person a p.m. to ensure knowledge of this nomination in case he/she isn't around THAT regularly...

B. The President shall take at least 5 but no more that ten of self nominations

how about 3-6 to keep the voting-results more accurate?? (ensure non-Weimar-republic here... ;) )


The Minister of the Interior

This job should be done by the president, IMO. Usually I'm all for power-diversification, but in this case it's only making things more complicated...


IIIE. Powers and Duties of the Minister of Science:
1. The Minister of Science shall choose what technology will be researched.
2. The Minister of Science shall keep a list of at least three technologies that are to be researched next and in what order.
3. This list is subject to the review and revision of the Citizens Assembly.
4. The nomination and election for the Minister of the Culture shall be held as follows:
[INDENT]A. Nominations for Minister of the Science can be self nominations or a candidate can be nominated by someone else.
B. The Minister of the Science shall be the candidates with the highest number of votes.
C. The Deputy Minister of the Culture shall be the runner up in the election.
5. The Minister of the Science may not be impeached.

just a copy/paste mistake: insert "Minister of Science" in this paragraph...

IIIF. Powers and Duties of the Director of Intelligence:
1. The Director of Intelligence shall keep records of all known Empires. The cities, religion, military units, wonders, and civics of those Empires. Records shall also be kept of the size, religion, improvements, and anything else deemed necessary about their cities.
2. The Director of Intelligence shall have complete control of all spies.
3. The nomination and election for the Director of Intelligence shall be held as follows:


Regarding the "special" importance of this position I would welcome HERE (only HERE) that the triumvirate can "select" a citizen as Director of Intelligence giving this job a slightly more "real" touch as in RL Intelligence Agency directors don't get voted at all ;)


C) The Judicial Branch
I. The Judicial Branch will the known as The Court, it will consist of three Judges, a Chief Justice, two Associate Justices an Advocate pool and Special Prosecutor pool.
[INDENT]IA. The Powers and Duties of the Chief Justice:
[INDENT]1. The Chief Justice shall oversee and rule on all court cases.
2. The Chief Justice shall with the help of the Associate Justices insure that no political parties gain control of government in a way that citizens not of this party can not hold office or have a say in government.

IB. The Powers and Duties of the Associate Justices
[INDENT]1. The Associate Justices shall rule on all cases.
2. The Associate Justices shall work with the Chief Justice to Police political parties.
ID. For the first term there shall only be one judge and that shall be an Associate Justice.

Why only on the first? I'm all for a simple jurisdicial branch in our DG. Maybe there should be another "juridical-triumvirate" with 3-5 judges (one of them maybe the primus-inter-pares when having a "dead vote") and this triumvirate can rule the juridicial branch.

This point needs a deeper clarification in all: HOW can the justice(s) fulfill their responsibilities: Exactly what powers should he/they have? Maybe you should insert another paragraph with sort of the following text: "If citizens file cases against the government because it defines a certain issue as "minor change" the justice(s) decide wether it IS a minor change or not. If it isn't, a poll must be held to bring the "major change" through. The justices hereby have the final decision wether a change of rules or in gameplay is minor or major. Every citizen can question the definition made by the government and call the justice(s) for clarification."
Something like that... :p


Article 2 The Local Government

A) Governors
I. Governors are the elected officials that run cities
IA. The Powers and Duties of the Governors:
[INDENT]1. The Governors may move any workers or garrison units assigned to them anywhere in there city's radius.
2. The Governor shall work with the Minister of the Interior to decide which improvement shall be built.

In case the majority agrees tzo my proposal to not establish a minister of the interior this has to be changed...


[INDENT]A. In a Gubernatorial election the candidate with the greatest number of votes wins.

What's that???

That's it... I hope you find it helpful. I'm not demanding I know the right thing or the full truth but those would be my suggestions... Comments welcomed! :D

Stilgar

Some good points here

A general question here: This is included quite often: Why do there have to be "only" self-nominations? IMHO, you should be able to nominate someone anytime for any job without making this necessary like when running for president (this is good, btw). We should put into the constitution (or whatever law-layer you want) that nomination for other people

1. have to be accepted within X days of the nomination (2 days maybe)
2. that the "nominator" has to send the nominated person a p.m. to ensure knowledge of this nomination in case he/she isn't around THAT regularly...



I agree with this one.



how about 3-6 to keep the voting-results more accurate?? (ensure non-Weimar-republic here... ;) )


I think 5-10 is fine here but don't have a strong feeling either way.


This job should be done by the president, IMO. Usually I'm all for power-diversification, but in this case it's only making things more complicated...

I like the idea of having a minister of the interior. It may make for some confrontations with the governors regarding the delegation of power but isn't that what government is all about?



Regarding the "special" importance of this position I would welcome HERE (only HERE) that the triumvirate can "select" a citizen as Director of Intelligence giving this job a slightly more "real" touch as in RL Intelligence Agency directors don't get voted at all ;)


This is a great idea, I really like it



Why only on the first? I'm all for a simple jurisdicial branch in our DG. Maybe there should be another "juridical-triumvirate" with 3-5 judges (one of them maybe the primus-inter-pares when having a "dead vote") and this triumvirate can rule the juridicial branch.

This point needs a deeper clarification in all: HOW can the justice(s) fulfill their responsibilities: Exactly what powers should he/they have? Maybe you should insert another paragraph with sort of the following text: "If citizens file cases against the government because it defines a certain issue as "minor change" the justice(s) decide wether it IS a minor change or not. If it isn't, a poll must be held to bring the "major change" through. The justices hereby have the final decision wether a change of rules or in gameplay is minor or major. Every citizen can question the definition made by the government and call the justice(s) for clarification."
Something like that... :p

This would be useful as well.



What's that???

I think I can nswer this one. If you're wondering what a gubernatorial election is-it's the election to appoint a governor. It just has a special name. ;)

Cheers!

Brilliant brilliant brilliant, I'm really amazed at the work you do Alphawolf, not only the amount but also the quality of it! :)

I just have a question here: what are the duties of Judges? You have the Chief Justive rule on all COURT cases, and the Associate Justices rule on all cases. Where are the judges here and what's the difference, or was that just a typo?
Also: Who or what determines which Judge/Associate Justice shall preside over a case, or will they preside over a case all together and come to a unanimous decision? And then how can the Chief Justice rule?

I'm replying to Stilgar08, Piparoo, and Gloriana here.

Stilgar08
We might have a "mechanical" problem here: In game other civ's often show up and "demand" something and it's either "do or forget about it": No time for asking the triumphirate. Especially when you don't play the game internet-based, but get it downloaded and uploaded again...
If the DP is anyone other than the Secretary of State the DP will have to ask the SoS what to do and I would assume that the other two members of the Triumvirate would be online to take care of their responsibilities. You do bring up a good point though I change it to "all present members of the Triumvirate".

The Secretary of state should have permission to accept or decline demands without asking the other members of the triumvirate in order to ensure playability...
I did it to keep the SoS from getting to powerful, and to give more reasons for the Triumvirate for existing.

A general question here: This is included quite often: Why do there have to be "only" self-nominations?
So that we wouldn't have to do the whole exceptance of nomination thing but I'll change that

IMHO, you should be able to nominate someone anytime for any job without making this necessary like when running for president (this is good, btw).
I dense today, I don't under stand what you mean here.

1. have to be accepted within X days of the nomination (2 days maybe)
2. that the "nominator" has to send the nominated person a p.m. to ensure knowledge of this nomination in case he/she isn't around THAT regularly...
:goodjob: I'm stealing this. ;)

how about 3-6 to keep the voting-results more accurate?? (ensure non-Weimar-republic here... ;) )
How true we certinly don't want someone to come to power and burn the Bunderstag (I know I spelled it wrong) then declare Martial Law. I'll change it.

This job should be done by the president, IMO. Usually I'm all for power-diversification, but in this case it's only making things more complicated...
How so?

just a copy/paste mistake: insert "Minister of Science" in this paragraph...
What are you talking about, I had no mistakes. :mischief: (fixed)

Regarding the "special" importance of this position I would welcome HERE (only HERE) that the triumvirate can "select" a citizen as Director of Intelligence giving this job a slightly more "real" touch as in RL Intelligence Agency directors don't get voted at all ;)
I like that idea. I'll think about it, it has merit.

Why only on the first? I'm all for a simple jurisdicial branch in our DG. Maybe there should be another "juridical-triumvirate" with 3-5 judges (one of them maybe the primus-inter-pares when having a "dead vote") and this triumvirate can rule the juridicial branch.

This point needs a deeper clarification in all: HOW can the justice(s) fulfill their responsibilities: Exactly what powers should he/they have? Maybe you should insert another paragraph with sort of the following text: "If citizens file cases against the government because it defines a certain issue as "minor change" the justice(s) decide wether it IS a minor change or not. If it isn't, a poll must be held to bring the "major change" through. The justices hereby have the final decision wether a change of rules or in gameplay is minor or major. Every citizen can question the definition made by the government and call the justice(s) for clarification."
Consider the Judicial still under construction. I'm PMing you about part of that.

What's that???
It's the complexity of American/English. Piparoo's right it's a Governor election.


Piparoo
I agree with this one.
I'll change the nominations.


I like the idea of having a minister of the interior. It may make for some confrontations with the governors regarding the delegation of power but isn't that what government is all about?
:king:

This is a great idea, I really like it
I like it to, but I need to discuss it with some people.

I think I can nswer this one. If you're wondering what a gubernatorial election is-it's the election to appoint a governor. It just has a special name. ;)
You're right.


Gloriana
Brilliant brilliant brilliant, I'm really amazed at the work you do Alphawolf, not only the amount but also the quality of it! :)
Thank you.

I just have a question here: what are the duties of Judges? You have the Chief Justive rule on all COURT cases, and the Associate Justices rule on all cases. Where are the judges here and what's the difference, or was that just a typo?
Cough, Cough Typo.

Also: Who or what determines which Judge/Associate Justice shall preside over a case, or will they preside over a case all together and come to a unanimous decision? And then how can the Chief Justice rule?
I had planned a way and forgot to include it. :blush: They all preside over a trial. The Chief is the one that maintains decorum. The Associates rule on a case but if the are split they the Chief casts the deciding vote.

The upper law (constitution) is largely drafted. Please check to see if this proposal would fit within the "working draft constitution".

Excelent Alphawolf, absolutely excelent. I can see you are well on your way to a great constitution. I hope you do keep the idea of local government in the final draft, I find that to be an interesting (although certainly not very powerful) aspect of the proposal =]

hmm....seems like the previous demo game governments.

The upper law (constitution) is largely drafted. Please check to see if this proposal would fit within the "working draft constitution".

I got a PM saying this comment was confusing, sorry...

The constitution draft is here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=141064)

This Triumvirate Government would go mostly into the Code of Laws. The point of my earlier post was that a comparison between this and the draft Constitution needs to be made to find out if there are any areas of conflict. Anything already covered by the Con. Draft would need to be removed from this one. I'm not saying there are or aren't sections in conflict or already covered, have been far too busy at work to make those comparisons myself.

As I said a work in progress. I PMing you a question DaveShack.

-the Wolf

Who will have the final say in a disagreement between a governor and the Minister of Interior? If for examplet the governor of a city would like to build a granary, and the minister wants a temple or something similar.

If the Minister is in control, what recourse does the governor have to manage his city?

Who will have the final say in a disagreement between a governor and the Minister of Interior? If for examplet the governor of a city would like to build a granary, and the minister wants a temple or something similar.

If the Minister is in control, what recourse does the governor have to manage his city?

Alpha left it like that so that the citizens could decide in the Code of Laws.

I'm a noob, so there may be some more questions like that before I'm through.

I'm a noob, so there may be some more questions like that before I'm through.

Don't worry about it, he didn't made it clear I PM him about it yesterday, because I was confused. ;)

Alpha left it like that so that the citizens could decide in the Code of Laws.

That I did.

-the Wolf

I've had some chance to catch up on this, so here are some comments.

First let me say that as a whole, this is very well written. You've obviously put a lot of effort into it, more than I have time to put into my own proposals to be honest about it. Whether this gets accepted by the majority or not, you're to be commended for putting this together.

One objective of the Constitution / CoL split into (out of game) vs (in game) respectively is to allow us to keep the Constitution stable from game to game. To that end, the judiciary is one of the areas where my preference is to keep it very generic. Can this section be organized so that the powers and duties of the judiciary are collected into one section, and procedures relating to the judiciary are in another section?

One of the titanic struggles throughout the history of the Demogames on CFC, at least the ones I have participated in (Civ3 DG3 and later), has been between putting lots of details into the rules vs. having less detail. I noticed there is a lot of procedural detail in this proposal. Similarily to the above comment on the judiciary, how easy is it to separate the "what" of this proposal, e.g. who is responsible for which areas, from the "how" e.g. what procedure is followed? Would you have a problem with putting the "what" into a Code of Laws layer and the "how" into a 3rd "Code of Standards" layer? Would you be willing to forego some of the detailed procedures, if the people who aren't commenting in the thread come down hard against wanting that level of detail?

I've had some chance to catch up on this, so here are some comments.

First let me say that as a whole, this is very well written. You've obviously put a lot of effort into it, more than I have time to put into my own proposals to be honest about it. Whether this gets accepted by the majority or not, you're to be commended for putting this together.
Thank you

One objective of the Constitution / CoL split into (out of game) vs (in game) respectively is to allow us to keep the Constitution stable from game to game. To that end, the judiciary is one of the areas where my preference is to keep it very generic. Can this section be organized so that the powers and duties of the judiciary are collected into one section, and procedures relating to the judiciary are in another section?
Great, another thing to do over the weekend, Yes it can and will be.

Would you have a problem with putting the "what" into a Code of Laws layer and the "how" into a 3rd "Code of Standards" layer? Would you be willing to forego some of the detailed procedures, if the people who aren't commenting in the thread come down hard against wanting that level of detail?
No, not in the lease, it is a democracy after all.

-the Wolf

Is there going to be a vote on this, because i feel it is the best idea i've seen yet. Also, is there going to be a legislative or not?

Is there going to be a vote on this, because i feel it is the best idea i've seen yet. Also, is there going to be a legislative or not?

I aske Alpha a question like this not too long ago, there'll be a vote as soon as they decide on the layout of the Constitutioin and Code of Laws, they're tying to figure out what goes where.

-KL

I'm replying to Stilgar08, Piparoo, and Gloriana here.

Stilgar08

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stilgar08
We might have a "mechanical" problem here: In game other civ's often show up and "demand" something and it's either "do or forget about it": No time for asking the triumphirate. Especially when you don't play the game internet-based, but get it downloaded and uploaded again...

If the DP is anyone other than the Secretary of State the DP will have to ask the SoS what to do and I would assume that the other two members of the Triumvirate would be online to take care of their responsibilities. You do bring up a good point though I change it to "all present members of the Triumvirate".

So you need Internet-access while playing IF you're in the triumvirate, don't you? You might not need to PLAY online, but you need direct contact to the other members of the triumvirate (tri from now on for me... - I'm a slacker!). Demands just pop up and you can't save just like that...

Another possibility would be to allow reloading of the last save before a demand comes up... (I mean you save after you did everything and BEFORE the AI has it's turns - basically when you have to press enter to begin the next round...)
Disadvantage: We might change the future and the demand doesn't show up after reload... :( Or am I wrong? Is the AI always going the same course after reloading? I don't know-I'm in a dilemma. Can someone enlighten me?
*idea added on bottom of this post...

On a technical note: Is it possible to auto-save the game after EVERY turn and not only after every 4 turns??

Sorry for inconvenience but I don't really like your change here. It would give the DP too much power, IMHO... He could always go on and say he wasn't able to get the other tri members... I would suggest to change it back... :crazyeye:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Stilgar08
The Secretary of state should have permission to accept or decline demands without asking the other members of the triumvirate in order to ensure playability...

I did it to keep the SoS from getting to powerful, and to give more reasons for the Triumvirate for existing.

Agreed on this one!!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Stilgar08
A general question here: This is included quite often: Why do there have to be "only" self-nominations?

So that we wouldn't have to do the whole exceptance of nomination thing but I'll change that If we do it like I proposed it's not a problem I think because if people don't get up and accept they're simply not in the vote...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Stilgar08
IMHO, you should be able to nominate someone anytime for any job without making this necessary like when running for president (this is good, btw).


I dense today, I don't under stand what you mean here.

I mean that every citizen should have the power to nominate another citizen for a position in the government - no pure "self-nominating only" positions.
Appointed positions in the government are different though! ;)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stilgar08
1. have to be accepted within X days of the nomination (2 days maybe)
2. that the "nominator" has to send the nominated person a p.m. to ensure knowledge of this nomination in case he/she isn't around THAT regularly...

I'm stealing this.
Good! :D


Quote:
Originally Posted by Stilgar08
how about 3-6 to keep the voting-results more accurate?? (ensure non-Weimar-republic here... )

How true we certinly don't want someone to come to power and burn the Bunderstag (I know I spelled it wrong) then declare Martial Law. I'll change it.

It's "Bundestag" ;) and it was "Reichstag" in the old days (not the good old days, that's for sure!) Back to topic: I'm glad you agree! Thanks! :)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Stilgar08
This job should be done by the president, IMO. Usually I'm all for power-diversification, but in this case it's only making things more complicated...

How so?
Basically there's one more person involved than necessary, IMO. IMO the duties of the secretary of the interior are not so much that the president couldn't handle it himself... But I noticed different opinions on this one and would welcome everyone's thoughts...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stilgar08
Regarding the "special" importance of this position I would welcome HERE (only HERE) that the triumvirate can "select" a citizen as Director of Intelligence giving this job a slightly more "real" touch as in RL Intelligence Agency directors don't get voted at all

I like that idea. I'll think about it, it has merit. You wanted to talk with someone about this, AFAIR (as far as I remember). I would like to know with whom you're discussing this?? Maybe with somebody on a bench in a lonesome park and both of you wearing trenchcoats?? ;) :joke:

Consider the Judicial still under construction. I'm PMing you about part of that. I opened another thread dealing with judicial branch.. Gimme some time. I'll get back to you :)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Stilgar08
What's that???

It's the complexity of American/English. Piparoo's right it's a Governor election.

Don't tell me you don't learn from playing PC-games!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Piparoo
I like the idea of having a minister of the interior. It may make for some confrontations with the governors regarding the delegation of power but isn't that what government is all about?

You'll might have the same discussions when the DP himselfs wants workers... The need for a secretary of the Interior isn't because of that...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Piparoo
I think I can nswer this one. If you're wondering what a gubernatorial election is-it's the election to appoint a governor. It just has a special name.
Thanks!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gloriana
I just have a question here: what are the duties of Judges? You have the Chief Justive rule on all COURT cases, and the Associate Justices rule on all cases. Where are the judges here and what's the difference, or was that just a typo?

I'll try to bring some light into the judicial branch in the next days but I'm not sure I'll manage...



Quote:
Originally Posted by Gloriana
Also: Who or what determines which Judge/Associate Justice shall preside over a case, or will they preside over a case all together and come to a unanimous decision? And then how can the Chief Justice rule?

I had planned a way and forgot to include it. They all preside over a trial. The Chief is the one that maintains decorum. The Associates rule on a case but if the are split they the Chief casts the deciding vote.

could you please explain what you mean how it should work (p.m. me or in the judicial-thread, if possible...)

Cheers,
Stilgar

*idea: concerning procedure: how about this for handling: establish a way the save has to be handled (and implement it in the CoS (Code of standards) suggested by DaveShack: first, say the secretary of the state gets the save, then the secretary of war and last the president. Hereby the DP would have the last word and international affairs have been done before the Sec. of war moves his troops... That is if the tri isn't available altogether at the same time.

Pro: no need for availability, possibility to poll important stuff while being in one turn...
Con: Maybe it slows the handling too much, I don't know...

In Civ3, the autosave is after you've already replied to the opponent's demands. I'm not sure if it happens this way in Civ4 or if the autosave is before the demand. Someone could either run an experiment and post the result, or ask in the general discussion or strategy forum.

You can autosave every turn by looking in My Documents\My Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 4\CivilizationIV.ini for these lines

; Specify the number of turns between autoSaves. 0 means no autosave.
AutoSaveInterval = 1

In the past we have given direction in advance on how to respond to any demands. This makes the job more interesting for whomever is in charge of that. So far in my games I have not had any wars declared on me straight out of the demand screen, but it does impact foreign relations negatively to refuse.

Also there are a lot more things which can be demanded, like breaking current deals with other civs, declaring war on someone the requestor is not at war with, making peace, changing civics, and changing state religion!

It's tradition for the DP to have all powers which have not been legally instructed in advance. This gives the DP something to do other than robotically follow instructions. If you don't trust a DP then don't elect him/her. :)

The special nomination and election processes in this proposal wig me out big time. I would like to stick with all (or at least most) offices being elected every term instead of phasing in, nominations being totally open for anyone to post a nomination, just like we've done it in the past. As I read some of the nomination things in the proposal, if the person responsible for gathering nominations doesn't want someone in the office, they just blackball that person and leave them out of the list.

I would like the judicial branch to be defined at the higher constitution level. The other leadership positions would be defined at the Code of Laws layer. Thanks for getting a start on the judiciary, it will help move things along.

Before I reply to everyone, CHECK YOUR INBOX DaveShack! Specifically the message I sent on the 19th and the one today.

-the Wolf

In the past we have given direction in advance on how to respond to any demands. This makes the job more interesting for whomever is in charge of that. So far in my games I have not had any wars declared on me straight out of the demand screen, but it does impact foreign relations negatively to refuse.

As far as I see it this has changed and it has to be adressed when it happens and the demands have a much wider variability IMO That's what I meant...

If you don't trust a DP then don't elect him/her. :)

Well and when I vote someone else and the other one wins, bad luck then or what??? Nope, not my piece of cake. I'd like to have a word in what the DP does, even if I'm not DP, just like in RL: I don't wanna vote every few years and then forget about politics and decisions.... :p

The special nomination and election processes in this proposal wig me out big time. I would like to stick with all (or at least most) offices being elected every term instead of phasing in, nominations being totally open for anyone to post a nomination, just like we've done it in the past.

Well, what was about this "fresh start" debate in the beginning of this DG?? When has that been taken back? I disagree and think we SHOULD change things.. Again: :p

Stilgar

You wanted to talk with someone about this, AFAIR (as far as I remember). I would like to know with whom you're discussing this?? Maybe with somebody on a bench in a lonesome park and both of you wearing trenchcoats??

If I answered that I would have to kill you. ;)

You'll might have the same discussions when the DP himselfs wants workers... The need for a secretary of the Interior isn't because of that...

The DP doesn't get worker he or she will just have to get over it. It's one think to say we don't want an automaton for a DP, but what powers will the DP have? Will they have the power to change the orders given to them by an elected official if they don't then they are an automaton. For this reason I believe the DP should either understand that they do as told or a member of the government should be the DP.

-the Wolf

Well, what was about this "fresh start" debate in the beginning of this DG?? When has that been taken back? I disagree and think we SHOULD change things.. Again: :p


It meant that I wanted ideas to be discussed, and being open to choosing good new ideas to incorporate in the rules. That doesn't mean that I'm willing to go along with every proposal though. :)

Once again DaveShack I need to ask you to check your inbox.

-the Wolf

I don't like the Judicial Branch... We should have a Judge Advocate and Public Defender instead of 2 associate justices

Ignore the judicial branch here, the other one is already in the constitution. I'll but up the version 4.0 by Noon tomorrow.

-the Wolf

Since we all voted for having political parties, in a sort of Parliamentarian model, we should respect that decision by allocating a certain set of laws to political parties to decide. Then we may see that political parties may set up coalition governments, and we get tne needed political horsetrading that may make this demogame great, and the opposition is free to contest government decisions throughout the government period.

The problem with so many demogames, is the fallibility of the simplistic popularity contest for offices and no holistic program planning.

Political parties should simplify the consensus-building, as in parliamentarian states, and not deepen disagreements.

For example a political party should set up a platform for the next term (possibly based on its core program) including the following:

Long term research plan
Civic policy
Choice of religion in state
Fundamental slider policy (Sci vs. Lux, vs- Gold)
A basic foreign and defense policy the party can negotiate from


One thing is certain, we cannot use the old Civ3 demogame structure in full.

Since we all voted for having political parties, in a sort of Parliamentarian model, we should respect that decision by allocating a certain set of laws to political parties to decide. Then we may see that political parties may set up coalition governments, and we get tne needed political horsetrading that may make this demogame great, and the opposition is free to contest government decisions throughout the government period.

Political parties should simplify the consensus-building, as in parliamentarian states, and not deepen disagreements.

For example a political party should set up a platform for the next term (possibly based on its core program) including the following:

One thing is certain, we cannot use the old Civ3 demogame structure in full.

First of all: We didn't all vote for political parties, it was just a majority, but I don't wanna be picky about this (Ok, I AM picky about this! ;) ).

Secondly we agreed that political parties should be allowed but there was a consensus that it shouldn't be mandatory to be in a party in order to get an office. You could do it all on your own as an individual as well...

That's important: If you want to form a citizen-group or become a member of the citizen-group which represents a party, that's all fine. But there won't be votes about "parties" it will always be about the individuals who run for office... If you and your party-members agree that you are a voting-block, go ahead, set up a candidate and people may decide... (If your block will get too powerful I will fight that but we'll see... ;) :p )

So we don't need to allocate the power of parties in the CoL in my opinion.. For me as a member of the DSP and the IIP (one important thing is these are not voting-blocks!) parties are just another sort of citizen groups...

You can decide how you want your citizengroup/party to work and if you find enough believers you can do that, but I strongly feel there shouldn't be more power to parties than to individuals...

Since we all voted for having political parties, in a sort of Parliamentarian model, we should respect that decision by allocating a certain set of laws to political parties to decide. Then we may see that political parties may set up coalition governments, and we get tne needed political horsetrading that may make this demogame great, and the opposition is free to contest government decisions throughout the government period.

The problem with so many demogames, is the fallibility of the simplistic popularity contest for offices and no holistic program planning.

Political parties should simplify the consensus-building, as in parliamentarian states, and not deepen disagreements.

For example a political party should set up a platform for the next term (possibly based on its core program) including the following:

Long term research plan
Civic policy
Choice of religion in state
Fundamental slider policy (Sci vs. Lux, vs- Gold)
A basic foreign and defense policy the party can negotiate from


One thing is certain, we cannot use the old Civ3 demogame structure in full.

I disagree with this for several reasons. One, this punishes people who do not join parties. Also Political Parties should not be allowed to decide laws on their own: they do not represent every citizen; and if political parties are treated equally even though they have different numbers of members this makes some citizens more equal than other; but should the parties be treated by their number of members, it will breed resentment and envy within the parties. Also the idea that political parties should be given a role in creating the law is contrary to the very idea of Democracy itself. In any Democracy the citizen or individual is the holder of sovereignty and willing gives that sovereignty to the government, creating a legitimate government; to give this power to political parties ignores the sovereignty of the citizens and relegates them to mere number to be fought over by the parties to gain more power. I also doubt if party politics will decrease divisions and end popularity contests.

-the Wolf

We should give governors control of worked spaces and creation of specialists

We should give governors control of worked spaces and creation of specialists

I think we're now up to v6.2. See the sticky at the top of the sub-forum.