I was just thinking, it would be awesome and probablly overpowering to have a Phil/Ind leader. Think about all those GP points, double from phil and the extra points from the wonders being build. Maybe expansion pack? Or is it just too powerful?

im a little lazy to go check to exact stats so the figures might be wrong, but with eight traits there should be a total of 28 combinations while there are only 26 leaders in the game, so i assume they removed two combinations that were overpowered? and yea i wanted to have a philo/industrious leader too, and it took me awhile scanning through the leader selection to realise there wasnt one :(

yeah there is no financial/industries either.

Yes there is... Qin Shi Huang is Financial/Industrious

The other missing trait combo is Creative/Organized.

I like that the worlds worst traits can be found in one leader, Asouka. Spiritual/Organized, watch out, as he'll run those expensive civics like Police State for 50% off! Then he'll switch off it with ZERO turns of anarchy!

A fearsome opponent, make no mistake. Ah ****, his fast workers are breaking through my borders! Noooooooooooooooooooo!

Actually in one game Asoka had the second most points (with me in first).

Aggressive/Spiritual is missing.

Montezuma is Aggressive/Spiritual. As has been pointed out, Creative/Organized is the other missing trait.

And for whatever reason, Asoka is a consistant top contender in almost every game I've played. And I'm in the camp that thinks Fast Workers are one of the most powerful UUs. After all, an extra food or hammer in the first fifty turns of the game is multiplied by hundreds of times as the years roll on. And that's an advantage that sticks with him no matter what era it is...unlike your poor, obsolete Praetorians.

Although, admittedly, the Praetorians are much snappier dressers.

I went in and modded the default game to give a civ Ind/Phi with the fast worker as UU, simply cuz those are the one's I would want. If you start near stone or marble, and get a few early GP boosing wonders, victory is difficult to avoid.

I would love to hear from the testers if the Ind/Phi combo was kept out intentionally for being overpowered.

I was looking for this kind of leader too. It would be just overpowering for culture games. Fast wonders and more GP ...

Ind/Phi... pheh. I already feel guilty playing Qin (Ind/Fin).

So, what great leader or culture in the history of the world could be considered both Philosophical and Industrious?

Spirtual is pretty powerful if you are playing a culture game. You want to build temples to every religion so you end up building a lot of temples -- doing so at half cost is worth a lot. For the culture game, I think Saladin might be the best (spirtual/philosophical).

If Ind/Fin was left out for being too powerful, then Cre/Org must have been nixed for being worthless. Not good traits in the first place, and they certainly don't compliment each other, either.

If Ind/Fin was left out for being too powerful, then

You mean Ind/Phi. See above.

Cre/Org must have been nixed for being worthless. Not good traits in the first place, and they certainly don't compliment each other, either.

Bah.. Creative is an excellent trait for playing both quiet cultural games and war games. In the cultural game case, your new cities get a free culture boost right from the start. Creative is also good for the initial land rush since you can cut off opposing civs with your expanding cultural borders and settle in more land. In the war game case, your captured cities or those you found on the frontier will start exerting cultural pressure on the enemy without the need for cultural improvements.

Organized cuts down on the amount of upkeep you have to pay by half. If you are playing a cultural game or expanding quickly, this trait will help out immensely since it allows you to build more cities further away without going into financial dificulty. In a war game, this makes it easier to capture rather than raze enemy cities as you roll over them.

Based on this, it shouldn't be hard to see at least one rather effective game plan that makes good use of the pair of traits. (In fact, you should be able to do so with any pair of traits if you put some thought into it.) If I were to play a game with this pair, I'd likely start off with an early land grab, roll over anybody on my continent early on (peaceful or otherwise), then focus on establishing a foothold on another continent or two and rolling over opposing civs there when convenient. Don't even really need to stock up on great artists thanks to the creative trait, though a couple generally come in handy nevertheless.

Be creative..

Jeremy.

The only thing about the Cre-Spr combo is that it would suffer from a poor military. With all that land grab, barbs/rivals could simply roll over all of your cities from lack of defenses. You'll probablly need to aim for the pyramids fast if you wanted to play as this since you'll want to get the police state to help reduce the production time of units.

If Ind/Fin was left out for being too powerful, then Cre/Org must have been nixed for being worthless. Not good traits in the first place, and they certainly don't compliment each other, either.

I agree. sjkldsjl

With only two missing trait-combinations, I assume we'll have to see additional traits in any future expansion... perhaps see the return of seafaring/scientific?

Hopefully not scientific, but I would really like to see seafaring return.

As for a creative/organized ruler, maybe there aren't any simply because that pair of traits would be an extremely rare find in any human being!

=$=

what about Hitler? Or did he get flamed for having boring paintings?

So, what great leader or culture in the history of the world could be considered both Philosophical and Industrious?


No doubt at all that the Ind./Philo combo would go to none other then Adolf Hitler...it fits him absolutely perfectly!

Hitler is the perfect match for the missing trait combo.

For the other missing one what I thought it could be is Hirohito for the Japanese. If you look into his personality you'd see that he is creatively organized :-P

But if it's the case that Ind./Philo is too strong and Creat/Org is too weak then I guess there is no answer.

Ind/Phi... pheh. I already feel guilty playing Qin (Ind/Fin).

So, what great leader or culture in the history of the world could be considered both Philosophical and Industrious?

I would think the Greeks could provide an Industrious Philosophical leader. *shrugs*

Hopefully not scientific, but I would really like to see seafaring return.

As for a creative/organized ruler, maybe there aren't any simply because that pair of traits would be an extremely rare find in any human being!

=$=

Financial is basically Seafaring.There is not much sence to build on coast until you get financial, and once you get financial it makes much much much sense to build Great Lighthouse and colossus, which would turn you empire into a sea superpower.

:D for creative and organised.

They need to bring back agricultural, I remeber the celts in C3C were almost overpowered becuase of religious(no anarchy) and Agricultural(cant remember exactly but it helped you expaqnd and grow super-fast) and there UU was killer(galaic swordsman 4/2 with a movement of 2) it was nutz. Scientific doesnt need to come back,techs are already researched insanely fast as it is.

No doubt at all that the Ind./Philo combo would go to none other then Adolf Hitler...it fits him absolutely perfectly!

Hitler is the perfect match for the missing trait combo.

For the other missing one what I thought it could be is Hirohito for the Japanese. If you look into his personality you'd see that he is creatively organized :-P

But if it's the case that Ind./Philo is too strong and Creat/Org is too weak then I guess there is no answer.

lol you made me laugh...I agree with you on both 100%

I guess it makes sense that no one is both creative and organized. Seems like entirely opposite personality types.

Asouka's combo of organized-spiritual, together with a perpetually useful UU, makes him the most flexible leader of all. With org-spiritual, India can stop on a dime and switch from full-peace to full-war and back again with little penalty. Civics costs do matter if you're not playing at cheese levels, esp. early in the game. For war-mongering Vassalage is High- and Theocracy is Medium-upkeep options in the early game; later on Police State is also High (but at that point the Financial trait is, admittedly, probably going to be more advantageous).

"To get rich is glorious."

-- Deng Xiaoping, Industrious Philosopher. (Or is that Financial Philosopher? Anyway, much better leader than Mao...)

No doubt at all that the Ind./Philo combo would go to none other then Adolf Hitler...it fits him absolutely perfectly!

Hitler is the perfect match for the missing trait combo.

Hm, I could image that this leader would be kind of hard to sell here in Germany. Whenever games are released that carry even only the symbology of this period, usually only a censored version is allowed to be sold. :nono:

And BTW, I disagree with the Philosophical part. Looking at what really happened then, it has to be Aggressive. :ar15:

Maybe someone from ancient Greece?

Ind/Phi... pheh. I already feel guilty playing Qin (Ind/Fin).

So, what great leader or culture in the history of the world could be considered both Philosophical and Industrious?

I think tagging Peter the Great down to 2 traits is difficult. Certainly he was Expansive, but he is one that I could think you might apply the Philosophical/Industrious traits to. He believed in the Westernized system of culture and education (during a very trasistional Russian realm still based on barbarism and Orthodoxy), but he also was able to build a huge fleet in a year. He brought ship building and the building of the great city of St. Petersburg to Russia. One thing is for certain, he was not Financial :lol:

rjjb posted:
"Organized cuts down on the amount of upkeep you have to pay by half. If you are playing a cultural game or expanding quickly, this trait will help out immensely since it allows you to build more cities further away without going into financial dificulty. In a war game, this makes it easier to capture rather than raze enemy cities as you roll over them."

This isn't what organized does. It only reduces by 50% the CIVIC upkeep, not the overall maintainance of your empire.

That being said, Organized is pretty much the most useless trait. Civic upkeep is negligible and halfprice courthouses are not worth the trait if given the choice of a good bonus AND halfprice building.

Can't say that Organized is all that useless... I've been reading the RB1 - Cuban Isolationists (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=133492) SG, and somewhere in the middle of the thread, they point out the MASSIVE civics costs, and how totally NOT-useless Organized can be...

For most play styles, it might be the weakest trait, but there are paths where it could be beneficial, depening on what your goals are.

This isn't what organized does. It only reduces by 50% the CIVIC upkeep, not the overall maintainance of your empire.


"The actual cost in gold per turn of civics varies according to the size of your civilization: the more cities you have and the larger your population, the higher hte upkeep cost for any and all civics (Civ4 Manual, p. 83)."

Jeremy.

Due to technical problems I'm only in my second game, but having tried Chairman Mao in the first (good for culture bombing AI's smaller cities and then not getting caned financially) I'm trying Louis Quattorze in the second.

There's no doubt in my mind that Creative is a significant advantage for a fast start. You wont get caned from building the city two squares away from the most productive square, which helps significantly in city placement as well as it growing your borders quickly.

Industrious also helped, with the forest chop, in getting a very quick Stonehenge and Oracle after the initial expansion. So the combo looks a good one for a Culture victory.

cuban isolationalists SG could be saving around 160 gold a turn if they had the organized trait.

So, what great leader or culture in the history of the world could be considered both Philosophical and Industrious?

Pericles of Greece would definitely be a good one in this regard. His building program was phenominal and he certainly contributed to political philosophy etc.. Philosophy was also essentially invented in his Athens.

Cicero of Rome would probably qualify too.

Pericles of Greece would definitely be a good one in this regard. His building program was phenominal and he certainly contributed to political philosophy etc.. Philosophy was also essentially invented in his Athens.

Cicero of Rome would probably qualify too.


My vote is for Pericles. :thumbsup: