View Full Version : Scotland!


WaxonWaxov
Nov 14, 2005, 08:26 PM
Hello all here is my Scotland mod....


EDIT:

Check out the new readme in post #3 below....

WaxonWaxov
Nov 14, 2005, 08:26 PM
trying to upload....

WaxonWaxov
Nov 14, 2005, 08:34 PM
EDIT!

New version as of 3am (Central) November 26 2005

Download the readme here...
http://www.ericcable.net/Scottish_Empire_ReadMe.pdf



Download the file here... (Note this is a .ZIP not RAR)
(Dear mods... the 500k file limit is too small)
http://www.ericcable.net/Scotland_V02.zip

have fun!

Reveilled
Nov 14, 2005, 10:17 PM
Doesn't having William Wallace and Robert the Bruce make the civ a little...I don't know, limited in timespan?
I'd definitely keep one of them in, but maybe a better choice for a second leader would be someone from earlier or later times? As some ideas, maybe William the Lion, Alexander III, James VI (or Mary? I don't really remember much about how good a ruler she was from history classes), or even Donald Dewar (would be pretty much perfect with an FDR leaderhead).

I'll have to give this a try, though. Looks interesting.

Wizard of OU
Nov 15, 2005, 12:55 AM
He is quite right, I love William Wallace as much as anyone, but he was never King or ruler of Scotland. But, I think that it is perhaps the best choice, on the grounds that picking a modern day ruler of Scotland would be a bit of predicting the future.

Wizard of OU
Nov 15, 2005, 04:17 AM
where do we download these files to?

woodelf
Nov 15, 2005, 04:56 AM
Wherever you have Civ4 installed it should eventually look like :

..... Program Files\Sid Meier's Civilization 4\Mods so that his new folder get plopped into your Mods folder and doesn't overwrite any core files.

woodelf
Nov 15, 2005, 04:56 AM
Oh yeah. Great news on a new Civ to absorb into my mod. I'll be looking for it!

WaxonWaxov
Nov 15, 2005, 08:31 AM
Yea, I might replace Wallace with James VII since after all he's the Scottish King that conquered (through inheritence) England.

More updates to come later this evening... (like 13 hours from now)

DrJambo
Nov 15, 2005, 10:56 AM
Don't you mean James VI? James VI also became James I of England around 1603.

And yes I agree, Robert the Bruce and James VI (or I) would be better choices than William Wallace.

WaxonWaxov
Nov 15, 2005, 11:02 AM
Don't you mean James VI? James VI also became James I of England around 1603.

And yes I agree, Robert the Bruce and James VI (or I) would be better choices than William Wallace.

You are correct, Sir. I got a little carried away with the "I"s in the post above.

I was just thinking about Macbeth instead of James VI (I)... who knows.
Right now, I've got bigger fish to fry with getting the UU, Highlander, to work.

After that, I'll learn how to use custom 2D pictures for Robert the Bruce. I'll probably use stills of Angus Macfayden from the movie.

By then I'll decide who the #2 leader for the Scots should be. It probably won't be Wallace.

Sadistik
Nov 16, 2005, 09:01 AM
Just a suggestion, but you could always use the famous conqueror Brian Boru as an alternative leader if you don't like Wallace. His title was "Imperator Scottorum" which translates to "Emperor of the Gaels", as at the time (1004) Ireland and Scotland were considered to be two halves of the same coin, so to speak. (Eire / Ireland's latin name was Scotia Major, while Alba / Scotland was Scotia Minor). Scotland itself was not truly unified yet as Strathclyde was still independent, while Ireland was split into four major kingdoms before Boru, but unified under him.

On the other hand, I think Bruce would fit in any situation, be it Scotland or the latter Pan-Gaelic suggestion I proposed, as he and his younger brother were invited to conquer Ireland, with the latter crowned king before eventually dying in battle. He was truly Scotland's most famous (and probably rightfully so) monarch. I would strongly consider MacBeth as a second one if you don't like the Boru idea.

Yours,
Sadistik

WaxonWaxov
Nov 18, 2005, 09:43 AM
Thanks for the history lesson on Boru.

Last night I worked on the graphics for The Bruce, but still need to pound out of technical issues with it.

As for the another Scot leader, I've decided to go with Macbeth. I feel he's a better choice than Wallace or James VI.

The completed mod, including UUs, should be complete by the end of the weekend.

EDIT: Maybe I will go with William the Lion......

Reveilled
Nov 18, 2005, 11:45 AM
Thanks for the history lesson on Boru.

Last night I worked on the graphics for The Bruce, but still need to pound out of technical issues with it.

As for the another Scot leader, I've decided to go with Macbeth. I feel he's a better choice than Wallace or James VI.

The completed mod, including UUs, should be complete by the end of the weekend.

EDIT: Maybe I will go with William the Lion......

I actually quite like Macbeth, but it will no doubt attract some Scots that are less able to think of our history as anything but sunshine, roses and bunnies into your thread to complain about how evil and terrible a ruler Macbeth was and how such an evil person leading scotland is offensive, indicitave of bigotry, yadda yadda yadda.

In light of that, William the Lion might be the better choice. The only obstacle will be that huge beard of his in a leaderhead.:mischief:

WaxonWaxov
Nov 18, 2005, 01:28 PM
Funny thing is, I'm spending all this energy to pick a second leader for the Scots when I'll only probably ever play as The Bruce (and so would many others I figures.)

I'm considering making a Civ mod that is the Templars.....

Reveilled
Nov 18, 2005, 03:29 PM
Well, you don't need to put in a second leader. Most Scots won't have heard of William the Lion (nor, for many, Macbeth!). Scottish History in Scottish schools is basically just William Wallace, Robert Bruce and Mary Queen of Scots (with brief guest appearances at either end of the cirriculum by Alexander III and James VI), and outside of Scotland, aside from those who actively study the country's history, it's not going to be more than that either.

I don't think the civ will be worse off for just having King Robert as its only leader.

LAnkou
Nov 18, 2005, 04:09 PM
below are the files i have modified to add the higlander as a special UU in my SuperCiv mod...(zip->rar, paste them over the previous one...)

the only think i haven't done is the copper or iron (it requires iron only) it is discovered with metal casting but need monarchy and iron working

and i like william wallace as a second leader

Sadistik
Nov 19, 2005, 07:58 PM
Well, you don't need to put in a second leader. Most Scots won't have heard of William the Lion (nor, for many, Macbeth!). Scottish History in Scottish schools is basically just William Wallace, Robert Bruce and Mary Queen of Scots (with brief guest appearances at either end of the cirriculum by Alexander III and James VI), and outside of Scotland, aside from those who actively study the country's history, it's not going to be more than that either.

I don't think the civ will be worse off for just having King Robert as its only leader.

I fear Shakespeare did more harm than good for MacBeth and the Loairn dynasty.

Halk
Nov 21, 2005, 07:23 AM
Can I suggest Kenneth MacAlpine as the leader rather than Wallace?

MacAlpine would be Expansive/Aggressive.

Schiltron might be a better unique unit. Have it replace archers, and give it archer stats, but 50% bonus v mounted or something like that.

Just suggestions, that's all!

Reveilled
Nov 21, 2005, 01:05 PM
Can I suggest Kenneth MacAlpine as the leader rather than Wallace?

MacAlpine would be Expansive/Aggressive.

Schiltron might be a better unique unit. Have it replace archers, and give it archer stats, but 50% bonus v mounted or something like that.

Just suggestions, that's all!

Shouldn't Schiltrons replace Pikemen?

In any case, it's a good idea for a UU. The only problem would be in modelling a tichtly packed circle of spearmen with just three figures.:sad:

Quinzy
Nov 21, 2005, 01:12 PM
sadistik: ireland was Hibernia, not scotia major (or did it have 2 names), it was 5 kingdoms, not 4 (connaught, ulster, leinster, munster & meath) although NOW it is the 4 provinces, as meath is now part of leinster. justa bitta info :)
~Q

Sisonpyh
Nov 21, 2005, 08:41 PM
Lankou:

Tried loading the scotland superciv version. Got an error regarding the Guerilla I/Guerilla II promotions. Maybe you typo'd or something, not sure.

Halk
Nov 22, 2005, 06:54 AM
Shouldn't Schiltrons replace Pikemen?

In any case, it's a good idea for a UU. The only problem would be in modelling a tichtly packed circle of spearmen with just three figures.:sad:

Are unit graphics even important to anyone? I've never cared about them as long as I could tell my units apart :)

Seriously though...

Something that Braveheart got spot on was the use of schiltrons against enemy cavalry. Warfare had changed and you needed cavalry. Schiltrons were the next step, and to some degree cancelled the cavalry charge.

A unique unit in Civ is usually either a beefed up version of the standard one, available at the same time, or access to a class of weapon a little earlier in the tech tree. This would be Scotland gaining access to anti-cavalry technology before everyone else.

The Schiltron is something very important to Scottish history, as the Battle of Bannockburn, however the gallic swordsmen idea is not really specific to Scotland as it was used before Scotland existed as a whole.

As for Kenneth MacAlpine, since nobody mentioned him...

He was the first King of Scotland, probably more accurate to call him MacAlipin (yep, done some googling to check what I think is correct, is correct!).

He united the Dalriada and Pict crowns to form a united Scotland in the 9th century. He did a lot of fighting to do it, basically repeatedly beating the Picts.

WaxonWaxov
Nov 22, 2005, 02:12 PM
Lankou:

Tried loading the scotland superciv version. Got an error regarding the Guerilla I/Guerilla II promotions. Maybe you typo'd or something, not sure.

Yep. Me too. Doesn't work

Sadistik
Nov 22, 2005, 03:01 PM
sadistik: ireland was Hibernia, not scotia major (or did it have 2 names), it was 5 kingdoms, not 4 (connaught, ulster, leinster, munster & meath) although NOW it is the 4 provinces, as meath is now part of leinster. justa bitta info :)
~Q
Meath was not a kingdom on the same level as Leinster, Connaught, Ulster, or Munster. At some times it was ruled by Ulstermen or Leinstermen. It's regarded often as the fifth province, but it often wasn't. ;)

As for Ireland's name, we're both right. Hibernia was the Roman name, but the Post-Roman name was Scotia until the Medieval times where Scotland came to be known as Scotland and an inhabitant a Scot.

http://www.reformation.org/expanded_map_of_scotia_major.html

Scotia = Ireland. Scotia Major = Variant similar to "Great Britain" as opposed to "Britain". Scotia Minor = Scotland, because the "civilized" people in the Latin world thought that the Irish tribe that supposedly founded Scotland were the Scots (They weren't. They were the Dal Riadans of Ulster.)

Since Ireland/Hibernia = Scotia, Scotland/Scotia Minor was, to put it simply "Little Ireland". Because it was just a single tribe of Irishmen and the Picts in Scotland it was much easier to unify than Ireland where they had 1,000 years of chaos and rivalry. It took a no-name minor noble like Boru to shake it up, and to this day he and Bruce were the only "true" kings in Ireland ;)


Another thing that most people don't know is that the Scottish royal family (MacAlpin) was a branch of the Irish royal family (O'Neill, from king Niall of the Nine Hostages).

See: Here (http://wc.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=DESC&db=vlfair&id=I1842)


Yep. Even Kenneth MacAlpin was an O'Neill, and nearly all genealogists will confirm this lineage. That's enough Gaelic history from me for now ;)

WaxonWaxov
Nov 25, 2005, 09:50 AM
And the O'Neals were descendants of Saint Sarah, the daughter of Mary of Magdalene and Jesus of Nazareth.

:)

Sadistik
Nov 25, 2005, 09:59 AM
And the O'Neals were descendants of Saint Sarah, the daughter of Mary of Magdalene and Jesus of Nazareth.

:)
I don't know about that, but my ancestor Conall Cernach witnessed the crucifixion. ;)

(Shame on you for invoking the Da Vinci code.)

purplexus
Nov 25, 2005, 10:30 AM
I was just thinking ..... Wasn't the One of the most important leaders of the Scots someone named Mary or something like that? Queen Mary of the Scots?
not sure... But one thing I think I do know is that it was this person's line of heritage that is still the reigning Royal in the UK

Reveilled
Nov 25, 2005, 01:12 PM
I was just thinking ..... Wasn't the One of the most important leaders of the Scots someone named Mary or something like that? Queen Mary of the Scots?
not sure... But one thing I think I do know is that it was this person's line of heritage that is still the reigning Royal in the UK

Mary, Queen of Scots, yes. How great a leader she was...ehh, is debateable. She tried to fix the country's problems, but she failed, losing a civil war (albiet a very short one) in the process. She was imprisoned, her son was taken from her and raised a protestant. She ended up in England, Queen Elizabeth later had her beheaded.

Her son, James VI and I, became King of England upon the death of Queen Elizabeth.

She isn't so much remembered for being great as for being a tragic figure.

WaxonWaxov
Nov 26, 2005, 03:45 AM
NEW VERSION ALERT!

See the edited post #3 in this thread.

Thanks to all for their help.

Pangur Bán
Nov 26, 2005, 11:27 AM
If you want my opinion, the leaders should be Robert de Brus and Máel Coluim II mac Cináeda (or even Máel Coluim III mac Donnchada). The leaders should be Gaels, so definitely James VI is no candidate. William Wallace is famous, and indeed an important common leader of the WoI; but his fame lies chiefly as a Lothian folk-hero made big by Blind Harry and Mel Gibson. He's no more a potential leader that Pizarro is a leader of the Spanish.

King Guillaume fils de Henri was a Frenchman by nation; he reigned a long time, but he is an anti-Scottish figure who spent much of his reign suppressing rebellions. King Causantín II mac Áeda is another that could be considered, as indeed is Macbethad mac Findlàech, who was nothing like the cruel tyrant portrayed in Shakespeare.

Reveilled
Nov 26, 2005, 10:46 PM
Didn't Malcolm III get his arse whupped by Williams I and II of England, leading to the loss of considerable amounts of Scottish territory? And I'm not sure about the Scots having to be Gaels. Scotland is more than just the Gaels! ;)

I can't find anything on William the Lion supressing rebellions, though. Maybe I'm just not looking in the right places, but could you provide a source?

Pangur Bán
Nov 27, 2005, 03:55 AM
Didn't Malcolm III get his arse whupped by Williams I and II of England, leading to the loss of considerable amounts of Scottish territory? And I'm not sure about the Scots having to be Gaels. Scotland is more than just the Gaels! ;)

I can't find anything on William the Lion supressing rebellions, though. Maybe I'm just not looking in the right places, but could you provide a source?

Read, Outlaws of Medieval Scotland: Challenges to the Canmore Kings, 1058-1266, (East Linton, 2003) by R.A. MacDonald. Máel Coluim III is important just for his sheer historical influence. He actually invaded England 5 times, dying on the last one. Guillaume invaded once, got caught at Alnwick, and signed the Treaty of Falaise, the most ignominious treaty in Scottish history.His capture was followed by a massive revolt of his Scottish and Gallovidian subjects, who proceeded to massacre the French and English placed in their lands.

Scotland is a historical state, and no longer exists, The word meant "Land of the Gaels"; to foreigners that is (the Scots called it Alba). The rulers don't have to be Gaels, but theoretically they should, esp. in a game like civilization.

Pangur Bán
Nov 27, 2005, 06:52 AM
sadistik: ireland was Hibernia, not scotia major (or did it have 2 names), it was 5 kingdoms, not 4 (connaught, ulster, leinster, munster & meath) although NOW it is the 4 provinces, as meath is now part of leinster. justa bitta info :)
~Q

Ireland has three ancient names: Eriu, Fotla and Banba. Scotia is Latin, and just meant "Gael-Land", so obviously could be used for Ireland, Scotland or both collectively. Ireland was often called Scotia Maiora in constrast to Scotia Minora (i.e. Scotland). King Robert de Brus calls it that in fact. In the Dark Ages, Scotia could be used to mean just the island of Ireland. Of course, only in Latin. As you point out, though, Hibernia was more common ... and lacked the initial ethnic connotations of Scotia.

Check this out if you want:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_I_of_Scotland#Bruce_and_Ireland

BTW, you're right that cóiceda implies a five-fold division, but only four are important: Connacht, Mumu, Ulaid and Laigin. Because cóiced means fifth, Mide (meaning "center") was added; but sometimes Mumu was counted as 2 cóiceda.

Quinzy
Nov 27, 2005, 08:06 AM
hmm. i am supposed to be a native speaker (but i am HOPLESS at the language. i much prefer the bit of german i know :) ) but as far as i know middle is "lár" .but maybe you are correct in a sence that scottich-gealic might be a bit diferent to irish-gealic. i dont really know.
but what i do know is that meath was very important, in that it contained the Hill Of Tara, the home of the high kings. it is a SERIOUS mistake to say it was not important, just because it was small, and has now emalgimated with another provice ( i know that the province (leinster) it has assimilated into is NOW the province of the capital, Dublin)

Pangur Bán
Nov 27, 2005, 08:27 AM
hmm. i am supposed to be a native speaker (but i am HOPLESS at the language. i much prefer the bit of german i know :) ) but as far as i know middle is "lár" .but maybe you are correct in a sence that scottich-gealic might be a bit diferent to irish-gealic. i dont really know.
but what i do know is that meath was very important, in that it contained the Hill Of Tara, the home of the high kings. it is a SERIOUS mistake to say it was not important, just because it was small, and has now emalgimated with another provice ( i know that the province (leinster) it has assimilated into is NOW the province of the capital, Dublin)

I didn't mean not important in that sense, just not functionally independent of the 4 cóiceda. Mide is, of course, Old Irish, and not modern Irish. In Scottish Gaelic there is the word Meadhon, Meadhon-latha, etc. I'm sure there is something like that in modern Irish Gaelic.

Quinzy
Nov 27, 2005, 08:51 AM
ah, i figured as much.

WaxonWaxov
Nov 27, 2005, 10:32 AM
Threadjack alert!

Agreed that Scotland is not a "historical state." But if America, England, France, and the other "new" countries can be Civs in Civilization, then Scotland can be as well.

Pangur Bán
Nov 27, 2005, 10:39 AM
Threadjack alert!

Agreed that Scotland is not a "historical state." But if America, England, France, and the other "new" countries can be Civs in Civilization, then Scotland can be as well.

Scotland is a historical state, that's the point. I obviously think it can be a civ, since I made a Scottish civ for civ3 (see my sig). I do think at least one ruler of the Scots should be taken from period 741-1124. Anyways, I don't have civ4 yet, so I can only offer my knowledge.

WaxonWaxov
Nov 28, 2005, 07:46 AM
I don't have civ4 yet, so I can only offer my knowledge.

Agreed. I will have at least one in the next update of this mod.

camsmith
Dec 01, 2005, 04:14 PM
Brilliant.. will try this in a sec..

Few folk need history lessons in this thread though.. but I ain't gonna start..

Needless to say.. Firaxis committed the ultimate sin by using only the "English Empire" as a civ.. and even more of a sin by using Queen Victoria as a leader of the "English" Empire when she was the Queen of Great Britain and Northern Ireland - not England..

As far as Scotland being a "historical state" - bad use of the words for a start as what constitutes a historical nation?

Been around as long as England has. At the moment too, (and since the Union) England does not exist as a Nation State.. neither does Scotland..

"We" (as in Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland) exist as the UK (and within that lies Great Britain (only Scotland and England - not Wales or NI - constitute Great Britain).. QE2 is as much the head of state of Scotland as she is of England. In fact she is more Scottish by blood than she is English.

Strictly speaking, of course we each have our own legal system and education system but constitutionally (although we don't have one by law) Scotland and England exist as two nations within a Nation State (I think that's how it is seen). Unlike Wales, which is a Principality and Ulster which is a province..

Clear? lol..

So big boo boo on Fireaxis's part.. Only way round it was to choose Queen Vic as leader and rename the so-called "English Empire" as the British Empire and put up with the English Flag instead of the Union Jack.

So ta... any chance of a Union Jack to go alongside that? I'm as British as I am Scots..

Oh, and Ireland has absolutely SFA to do with Scotland as far as I'm concerned.. prefer fellow Britons to that lot.. historically, where I'm from lay in Strathclyde from where the Kings of Briton ruled. The true Britons are the lowland Scots and the Welsh and the Ulster Scots were from Ayrshire. The "Scots" from Ireland settled up in teuchter land and fought the Picts..

WaxonWaxov
Dec 01, 2005, 04:27 PM
I hope you enjoy the mod, camsmith. Version 3 will come out sometime this weekend.... probably.

Halk
Dec 02, 2005, 04:25 AM
Have to Agree, Firaxis could have put in Elizabeth and William I. And that'd leave Victoria..

Victoria was, in addition to being the Queen of Great Britain and Ireland (as well as her other territories), Empress of India.

I hope Sean Connory is a joke :P

Sadistik
Dec 02, 2005, 09:36 AM
and Ulster which is a province..

1/3 of Ulster lies within the Republic of Ireland.

NI = Ulster is like FYROM = Macedonia.


In that regard, just call me a Greek then ;)

Sadistik
Dec 02, 2005, 09:38 AM
Oh, and Ireland has absolutely SFA to do with Scotland as far as I'm concerned.. prefer fellow Britons to that lot.. historically, where I'm from lay in Strathclyde from where the Kings of Briton ruled. The true Britons are the lowland Scots and the Welsh and the Ulster Scots were from Ayrshire. The "Scots" from Ireland settled up in teuchter land and fought the Picts..

Correction: Britons have SFA to do with Scotland, to be technical. You can call it Pictavia or whatever if you want, but Scotland means lands of the Gaels.

Pangur Bán
Dec 02, 2005, 10:28 AM
@ camsmith: Just because you're from Strathclyde doesn't mean you're a descendent of a Briton. In fact, the descendents of Strathclyde Britons probably contributed nothing of the Greater Glasgow population, the vast, vast majority of whom descend from migrants of the 19th century and afterwards, from Scotland-proper (i.e. north of the forth) or Ireland. That's ignoring pre-19th century migration. A similar thing applies to Edinburgh, which is why all mainland Scots have accents which foreigners find difficult to distinquish from Irish.

Britons have almost SFA to do with Scotland. Gaels founded Scotland, and incorporated conquered Picts and others. In that way, they are no different from the Irish Gaels, who likewise came (probably from Scotland actually) and "took over" pre-Goidelic/Celtic population.

Great Britain, likewise, has SFA to do with Britons. GB is the successor state of England (just expanded and renamed in fact), and England as everyone knows was baptised in British blood.

So, all in all, none of your arguments make any kind of sense. :lol:

WaxonWaxov
Dec 02, 2005, 10:44 AM
threadjack alert!

LAnkou
Dec 04, 2005, 12:26 PM
will their be LH?

by the way, it would have been cool to have the pdf type down in the forum (apart from the fact i have trouble with pdf...)

WaxonWaxov
Dec 04, 2005, 12:37 PM
will their be LH?

by the way, it would have been cool to have the pdf type down in the forum (apart from the fact i have trouble with pdf...)

I've tried with the LH, but it doesn't work :(

Can't figure out what I'm doing wrong.

The .dds for Robert Bruce leaderhead is there, but I'm doing something wrong in the code. Any thoughts?

As for the .pdf I'll work on that.

lord_graywolfe
Jan 10, 2006, 08:43 PM
i downloaded scotland and installed it with no problem but when i start up a game i cant find scotland anywhere to choose from. did i forget a step somewhere?

cthom
Jan 12, 2006, 09:14 AM
same here... i've checked the xml, etc and everything seems to be there.

ignore above.
i downloaded lankou's superciv mod and i've played wallace. only thing is a parse problem with robert.

VWClaymore
Jan 18, 2006, 05:17 PM
honestly I'd like to see Alexander III as the second alternative... though Sean Connery is an amusing alternative.

Moham
Jan 22, 2006, 09:56 AM
Is there a way to change the territory colour slightly? It's exactly the same as the French and causes headaches when playing against them.

WaxonWaxov
Jan 23, 2006, 01:34 PM
I belive the version in Superciv is old.

I've not tried the mod since the most recent patch. Maybe that's the problem.

LAnkou
Jan 23, 2006, 04:43 PM
well, i updated scotland, but i kept wallace cause i like him and it's hard to erase a leader without adding a new one, but when you will add other leaders, there won't be wallace anymore (bruce will have the nice music :))

Lord Samuel
Jan 28, 2006, 12:56 AM
Alexander III is too close to Wallace and Bruce to work, I'm afraid. How about Jimmy Shand! :P

Good on ye Camsmith. As a Northern Irishman, I also felt ripped off by the 'English Empire'. But it is alright if ye just rename it. I also change some of the cities (especially tin-pot ones like Warwick - no offense to anyone from Warwick but it isn't exactly Glasgow or even Belfast). However Northern Ireland isn't a province. The Act of Union in 1801 made Ireland into a part of the United Kingdom. Prior to that it was the United Kingdom of England and Scotland, but afterwards it was England, Scotland and Ireland. This brought the modern Union Jack into existence by adding the diagonal red saltire which is the Cross of St. Patrick. After the Irish Free State was formed, Northern Ireland was still a 'kingdom' with a parliament initially (until the IRA ruined it for us all!!!).

@ Calgacus: Great Britain isn't England expanded and renamed. Great Britain technically refers to the Island which includes England, Scotland and Wales but is used informally to refer to the UK.

Northern Ireland is seperate from England, as much as Scotland or Wales. That's why our football team's seperate! 1-0! "We're not Brrrrrazil we're Northern Iiiiirrrreland!"

Pangur Bán
Jan 29, 2006, 09:56 AM
Alexander III is too close to Wallace and Bruce to work, I'm afraid. How about Jimmy Shand! :P


Indeed. One should be Celtic. It's not as if the Gaelic kings were crap or anything, the Scots had some quite fine ones. David is the most important king in Scottish history, but he (although not as much as William/Guillaume) can barely be regarded as Scottish.


Good on ye Camsmith. As a Northern Irishman, I also felt ripped off by the 'English Empire'.


Civ made a good decision on this one. England represents the greatest historical continuity, and a national, ethnic, and civilizational identity which has existed since the dark ages to the present. Great Britain is just a pseudonym for England. How can one have a Great Britain civilization before the modern time? It would imply the civilization was Welsh. Do you think Welsh civilization should replace English civilization?


@ Calgacus: Great Britain isn't England expanded and renamed. Great Britain technically refers to the Island which includes England, Scotland and Wales but is used informally to refer to the UK.


Do you know what a legal fiction is? I wasn't talking about what Great Britain technically means, but what it means as a historical actuality.

Rshu
Jan 29, 2006, 05:02 PM
Going by your reasoning on England, America was never a nation in 4,000 BC and that leads to misleading. How can you call somebody who is the leader of the British civilization just the leader of the English civilization?

Pangur Bán
Jan 31, 2006, 08:44 PM
Going by your reasoning on England, America was never a nation in 4,000 BC and that leads to misleading. How can you call somebody who is the leader of the British civilization just the leader of the English civilization?

Er ... hi there. That was not my reasoning. By that reasoning none of the civs would be there is 4000. My actual reasoning is that England and the English, who arrived in Britain in the fifth century (if not earlier), and existed as a state in name until the eighteenth century (continuing under the UK until today) constitutes more reasonable inclusion as a civilization than "Britain", a quite meaningless historico-ethnic/political unit until very recently. Queen Victoria, I presume that's who you're talking about, was as Queen of Great Britain and Ireland, by extension queen of England. On the other hand, Queen Elizabeth was not Queen of Britain. Get why England is more sensible? Of course, the very fact that English today is the language of the whole British Isles (with bi-linguals in much of Wales, and small parts of Scotland and Ireland) is further testament to why Great Britain and England represent one civilizational continuum. I'm afraid too many people here are inclined to impose their own community identity on the historical and cultural realities which ought to shape Civ choice.

Rshu
Feb 01, 2006, 06:41 PM
Victoria was hardly even English. It is stupid that the whole UK is called "England". England is a part of it. Queen Victoria was queen of a whole civilization, not just an English one. Therefore, it is discrimination against the other countries that are part of that civilization that it is not called the United Kingdom, not a discrimination against England. I would be content with an English civ if they just kept ENGLISH kings and queens. Victoria was not fully of English blood, and therefore is not fully of that culture, meaning that she cannot be considered completely English.

Sid'sCivIVFan
Feb 27, 2006, 07:32 AM
Can someone tell me what I am doing wrong? I drop the CustomAssests folder into the mods folder of the game. When I select load a mod it appears and the game restarts but the Scotts do not show up as selectable Civ. What a I doing wrong?

WaxonWaxov
Mar 01, 2006, 02:45 PM
Can someone tell me what I am doing wrong? I drop the CustomAssests folder into the mods folder of the game. When I select load a mod it appears and the game restarts but the Scotts do not show up as selectable Civ. What a I doing wrong?

This was not designed to be used as a mod. From the download put the folders that are within Custom Assests in the Custom Assests folder under /mydocuments/mygames/Civ4....

Once you've done that, start the game and you should be albe to use the Scots WITHOUT loading it as a mod.

PM me with anymore questions. I don't monitor this thread like I used to.

herbie1302
Jun 04, 2006, 08:08 AM
Below is a list of Scottish Kings and Queens

THE HOUSE OF ALPIN
Kenneth Macalpin (843-859)
Donald I (860-863)
Constantine I (863-877)
Aed (877-878)
Eochaid (878-889)
Donald II (889-900)
Constantine II (900-942)

THE HOUSE OF DUNKELD
Malcolm I (942-954)
Indulf (954-962)
Dubh (962-967)
Cuilean (967-971)
Kenneth II (971-995)
Constantine III (995-997)
Kenneth III (997-1005)
Malcolm II (1005-1034)
Duncan I (1034-1040)
Macbeth (1040-1057)
Lulach (The Fool) (1057-1058)

THE HOUSE OF CANMORE
Malcolm III (Canmore) (1058-1093)
Donald Ban (1093-1094)
Duncan II (May-November 1094)
Donald Ban and Edmund (1094-1097)
Edgar (The Peaceable) (1097-1107)
Alexander (The Fierce) (1107-1124)
David I (1124-1153)
Malcolm IV (The Maiden) (1153-1165)
William (The Lion) (1165-1214)
Alexander II (1214-1249)
Alexander III (1249-1286)
Margaret (Maid of Norway) (1286-1290)


The Competitors (Balliol and Bruce)

THE HOUSE OF BALLIOL
John Balliol (1292-1296)

THE HOUSE OF BRUCE
Robert I (The Bruce) (1306-1329)
David II (1329-1371)


THE HOUSE OF STEWART
Robert II (1371-1390)
Robert III (1390-1406)
James I (1406-1437)
James II (1437-1460)
James III (1460-1488)
James IV (1488-1513)
James V (1513-1542)
Mary Queen of Scots (1542-1587)
James VI (1567-1603) of Scotland James I of England

lord_graywolfe
Jun 05, 2006, 08:59 AM
ok i put the folders in your download under custom assests and i can now play scotland but it also caused some xml errors. the chinese leader head, communisum and three georges dam. i can still play the game but i worry what this will do to the game later when i reach those spots.

warwickboy
Nov 17, 2006, 12:56 PM
Queen Victoria, I presume that's who you're talking about, was as Queen of Great Britain and Ireland, by extension queen of England. On the other hand, Queen Elizabeth was not Queen of Britain. Get why England is more sensible?

No I don't. It would have been more sensible to have leaders such as Edward I, Henry VIII and so on to represent England. Yes, technically Queen Vic was the queen of England, but also the queen of the United Kingdoms. It annoys people when they buy a game to see their national identity has been subsumed incorrectly. Not so much that it makes them go storming back to the games shop - the game is of course loose with history and is just a game after all - but enough to make them wish that a little more sensitivity had been used when creating the civs.

The England/Great Britain debate is one that still has some ferocity in the UK, and the smaller nations besides England are adamant that the terms 'England' and 'UK' (or 'Great Britain' or whatever) are not viewed as synonymous.

Tip: Make sure you get the terms sorted out in your mind before you're next sipping the whisky in a Scottish bar ;)

cairnsy44
Jan 05, 2007, 03:02 PM
any chance this mod will come out in a Warlords edition?:D

thetank
Jan 05, 2007, 08:18 PM
Below is a list of Scottish Kings and Queens

THE HOUSE OF ALPIN
Kenneth Macalpin (843-859)
Donald I (860-863)
Constantine I (863-877)
Aed (877-878)
Eochaid (878-889)
Donald II (889-900)
Constantine II (900-942)

THE HOUSE OF DUNKELD
Malcolm I (942-954)
Indulf (954-962)
Dubh (962-967)
Cuilean (967-971)
Kenneth II (971-995)
Constantine III (995-997)
Kenneth III (997-1005)
Malcolm II (1005-1034)
Duncan I (1034-1040)
Macbeth (1040-1057)
Lulach (The Fool) (1057-1058)

THE HOUSE OF CANMORE
Malcolm III (Canmore) (1058-1093)
Donald Ban (1093-1094)
Duncan II (May-November 1094)
Donald Ban and Edmund (1094-1097)
Edgar (The Peaceable) (1097-1107)
Alexander (The Fierce) (1107-1124)
David I (1124-1153)
Malcolm IV (The Maiden) (1153-1165)
William (The Lion) (1165-1214)
Alexander II (1214-1249)
Alexander III (1249-1286)
Margaret (Maid of Norway) (1286-1290)


The Competitors (Balliol and Bruce)

THE HOUSE OF BALLIOL
John Balliol (1292-1296)

THE HOUSE OF BRUCE
Robert I (The Bruce) (1306-1329)
David II (1329-1371)


THE HOUSE OF STEWART
Robert II (1371-1390)
Robert III (1390-1406)
James I (1406-1437)
James II (1437-1460)
James III (1460-1488)
James IV (1488-1513)
James V (1513-1542)
Mary Queen of Scots (1542-1587)
James VI (1567-1603) of Scotland James I of England

I'd go with Mary

gotta sex it up a bit.

dalauder
Oct 03, 2007, 05:09 PM
Where do ya get the download?

Pangur Bán
Oct 03, 2007, 07:16 PM
Gruoch - "Lady Macbeth" - would prolly be cooler. Mary was a bit of a loser.

cthom
Oct 08, 2007, 02:11 PM
my word, this thread's been away a long time! i thought it might have been announcing bts compatibility.

Corm
Oct 18, 2007, 08:12 AM
Yup im interested in this for BtS too. If I knew how to do it or could be pointed in the direction of insturctions to teach myself how to do it I would find the time...

Soneji
Oct 18, 2007, 09:34 AM
Yes we demand Scotland for BtS!!!

Corm
Oct 18, 2007, 11:11 AM
...and a Shhhhhrubbbery! :D

BTW: For a unique building, if there isnt one, could I suggest a Kirk to replace the Church building but it also gives a bonus to Science. Representing Scotlands historical Kirk based education system which is older than many European Civs education systems.

The Almighty dF
Oct 19, 2007, 01:26 AM
Scotland for BtS, now. ->

The SNP member in me wants to send in some highlanders against the English Empire.
Could be funny to make England my vassal.

Pangur Bán
Oct 19, 2007, 02:27 AM
I've started making one for BTS; I'll upload it when it's finished.

Soneji
Oct 19, 2007, 07:08 AM
Scotland for BtS, now. ->

The SNP member in me wants to send in some highlanders against the English Empire.
Could be funny to make England my vassal.

Nothing better than London under the St Andrews Cross!

:D

Soneji
Oct 19, 2007, 07:08 AM
I've started making one for BTS; I'll upload it when it's finished.

Good one Calcagus. Quite a lengthy job to undertake on your own?

Soneji
Oct 19, 2007, 07:15 AM
...and a Shhhhhrubbbery! :D



http://www.sfgate.com/n/pictures/2006/05/19/chelsea1.jpg

Like so?

:lol:

Pangur Bán
Oct 19, 2007, 07:46 AM
Good one Calcagus. Quite a lengthy job to undertake on your own?

Well, I've got the leader done (pinched from a previous mod), and integrated; got the UU integrated. It works. Need to do a UB, then write the texts for everything, play around with the stats. The leader is Malcolm II, Mael Coluim mac Cinaeda. Could change it to Mac Bethad or Causantin II or even Malcolm III... but the particular leader graphics being used means the leader has to be drawn from that pre-Norman era. I want to add a second and/or third leader ... one of whom will be David I. Would love to have Robert Bruce ... but there are no appropriate animated heads about. The only alternative would be a renaissance/early modern ruler such as James IV, James V or James VI. Or I could used Isabella (or her derivative Willelmina), change the background, and make her Mary ... but that'd be lame.

Mael Coluim II: Charismatic & Protective
David I: Financial & Spiritual

The Charlemagne graphics (with changed background) would have been perfect for David, but he's wearing a frigging imperial - rather than royal - crown, which makes it usable for a king of that era. The Polish mod's Casimir is good too, but he's got Poland's arms as buttons for his cloak - so again, not usable. I guess I could go static, but I don't like that so much.

Used a wonderful Norman soldier for the UU ... a Gallo(w)glass - soldiers from the Hebrides, Argyll, Galloway and Carrick who helped kick the English out of most of Ireland and helped kick them out of Scotland. The availability of new units in the community kinda narrows the options for a UU, but Gallowglass is not a bad one. Any ideas for bonuses anyone? It will be a maceman replacement ... so that's the base.

Soneji
Oct 19, 2007, 08:09 AM
Well in CivGold 3.0 for Warlords the UU is a swordsman replacement, the Highlander. Starts with Gorrila I iirc. So a Gallowglass would be a slightly more historic unit.. but sounds good.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/plantation/images/ib/ib01_t02.jpg

Considering it would be a mace replacement, I think shock 1 would be required.. either that or CR1. Because the advantage of the UU comes later than a swordsman, there would be more enemies and or cities to take. I would rather shock to be truthful. Or Amphibious, for some medieval hilarity!

As for Robert Bruce, has no one ever done a leader head for him before? I'll need to fire up CivGold in Warlords tonight and have a gander again.

UB - Market Cross? Perhaps? I would like to see Scotlands once great navies given some recognition, how about some early sort of Dry-dock that gives 15-25% increase in ship productions? (To recognise how Scotland kept neck and neck with England in terms of naval production until we rather stupidly loaned everything to the French)

Pangur Bán
Oct 20, 2007, 12:07 AM
Well in CivGold 3.0 for Warlords the UU is a swordsman replacement, the Highlander. Starts with Gorrila I iirc. So a Gallowglass would be a slightly more historic unit.. but sounds good.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/plantation/images/ib/ib01_t02.jpg

Considering it would be a mace replacement, I think shock 1 would be required.. either that or CR1. Because the advantage of the UU comes later than a swordsman, there would be more enemies and or cities to take. I would rather shock to be truthful. Or Amphibious, for some medieval hilarity!

As for Robert Bruce, has no one ever done a leader head for him before? I'll need to fire up CivGold in Warlords tonight and have a gander again.

UB - Market Cross? Perhaps? I would like to see Scotlands once great navies given some recognition, how about some early sort of Dry-dock that gives 15-25% increase in ship productions? (To recognise how Scotland kept neck and neck with England in terms of naval production until we rather stupidly loaned everything to the French)

James IV may famously have had a decent navy ... but really ... can we honestly say a great navy characterised Scottish civilization? 'Tis an idea of course. Under Britain Glasgow produced something like a half of the world's ships, but no Scottish state benefitted from that. Besides, there is usually sync between UUs, leaders and UBs. Mercat cross ain't terrible. UB is a toughy.

Anyways, mod is progessing well. Just got the civilopaedia's to do before all pre-UB work is completed.

Here's a little preview:

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee231/Civ_Calgacus/Scottish%20civ/DavidIPreview.jpg

You can see I changed the color of Charlemagne's beard and put Carlisle Castle behind him. Mael Coluim II has Dunnottar Castle behind him I should add.

Pangur Bán
Oct 20, 2007, 04:25 AM
RE the UU. I'm not sure I understand why a shock or city raider bonus would be historically justified ... well Shock more so that city raider. Was thinking about +25% hill attack (cancelling out the hill defense bonus) and/or +1 XP attack value ... i.e. 20% higher XP per successful attack. Well, that's what I'm thinking changing XPattackvalue from 4 to 5 will do. Would seem appropriate given that this maceman replacement is a swordsman ... and swordsmanship - esp. among these guys - was very much an improvable art. What do you think?

The other option would be giving them the hill attack bonus and Woodsman II. That would make the Galloglass a unique unit ... but not overpowered in an inappropriate way. For the moment, I'm gonna set it up with Guerrilla II. With just that, that's pretty safely not overpowered and historically meaningful ... it means all upgraded units from that with keep that promotion, which would be appropriate when that's the kind of advantage Scottish soldiers were supposed to have, esp. so as when they get upgraded to Riflemen they'll keep the advantage.

Soneji
Oct 20, 2007, 05:06 AM
Well no, but I was struggling to think of another UB in all honesty. I was trying to point out that it was a decent navy and as much as a match for the English navy at the time, considering the size difference between the countries. I'm open to other suggestions.

Woodsman II sounds interesting, but I think Guerilla II would be more appropriate.

I am going to go and have a long think about the UB..

Pangur Bán
Oct 20, 2007, 10:49 PM
I was contemplating a range of possibilites; financial boost is bad given David I's traits; military boost bad given Mael Coluim II's traits. So science boost is necessary ... but to be appropriate would have to follow the Ethiopian example and draw UU and UB from completely different eras. Thus, I suggest Royal Society as an Observatory replacement.

Observatory's traits are:
*Cost=150
*"can turn one citizen into a scientist"
*+25% science

Royal Society I'd suggest:
*Cost=200
*Requires University
*1 free scientist
*Can turn two citizens into Scientists

The Royal Society would thus be one "can turn citizen into a scientist" stronger than the French salon, but this is compensated for by the University requirement not possessed for either the Observatory or Salon, and the 33% extra cost. What do you think?

I know Royal Societies aren't unique to Scotland of course ... but Stock Exchanges are hardly unique to England, Saloons to France, Gardens to Babylon, Mausoleums to India, etc. Good way to simulate Scottish scientific genius of the 18th and 19th centuries.

The other possibility could be Select Club ... being no different from the Observatory but having the free scientist ... equal in cost and power to the salon (though the salon gets an artist rather than a scientist).

I'm thinking atm that the former idea is better.

Pangur Bán
Oct 21, 2007, 04:40 AM
The civ is now virtually ready. UU, UB, civilopedia texts, etc, are all done. I will play a full game now, but can upload it any time. Will use another thread when I do though.

Went for the Royal Society for now. UB takes not very long to change though.

Soneji
Oct 21, 2007, 06:20 AM
Did you do the graphics for the UB yourself!

Upload it!

:D

Let me see!

Pangur Bán
Oct 21, 2007, 06:22 AM
Did you do the graphics for the UB yourself!

Upload it!

:D

Let me see!

Erm ... no ... pinched them from an acceptable other source ... an improved version of the Ratthaus someone uploaded a wee bittie ago.

Will put up mod on another thread in a little bit then.

EDIT: Here we go, check out the following thread:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=248140

Corm
Oct 22, 2007, 11:49 AM
Just to stick my oar in. I think the UB should have something to do with Science since the Scottish Education system was one of the best historicaly speaking for a long period of time. Like I suggested above the Kirk could replace the church building and give a bonus to Science or the Royal Society idea is pretty good.

For the UU I would still go with Shiltrons (Pikemen with a bonus) or the Highlander/Gallowglass idea (although the term Gallowglass is used nowadays to mean Irish sowrdsman so might be best to stick with Highlander.

I know its not a war like unit but some sort of Scottish explorer unit could be used as the UU too as the Scots are famous for traveling all around the world as Mercs, Explorers, Missionaries etc. When I was in Bejing recently there was a Tang era clay figure that had red/ocher hair and was wearing what looked dystinctly like plaid trews. The description only said possible European Merchant though. I know what it looked like to me. Just a suggestion mind you.