Great People Tech Prefences [Archive] - Civilization Fanatics' Forums

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DaveMcW

Nov 15, 2005, 12:28 AM

Edit: My original article (at bottom) is obsolete after lots of community research into GP tech preferences. Thanks to notagoodname from the civ4 multiplayer ladder site for putting this new article together.

In the game great people have a list of techs and a preference for each tech (no techs have the same preference). With the same techs researched the same great person type will always give you the same tech.

First: Here's complete list of techs a prophet will get in the order they will try and get them (preference of tech they give you runs from top to bottom)

Great Prophet:
Meditation
Polytheism
Priesthood
Monotheism
Theology
Divine Right
Mysticism
Masonry (Warlords patch & BTS)
Code of Laws
Civil Service
Monarchy
Literature
Music
Writing
Philosophy
Printing Press
Drama
Aesthetics (BTS)
Alphabet
Paper
Education
Liberalism
Calendar
Masonry (Vanilla & unpatched Warlords)
Animal Husbandry
Construction
Future Tech

From that above list you can see that if you dont have meditation a great prophet will give meditation. If you do have meditation a great prophet will try and give you polytheism. If you have meditation and polytheism then the prophet will go down the list (from top to bottom) until there is a tech you can research that the prophet can give you.

Note if you dont have prerequisites for a tech then the great person will try and give you the next tech on the list that you can get.

eg.
If i didnt have masonry and had techs meditation, polytheism, priesthood, mysticism and code of laws then a great prophet would give me civil service as monotheism requires masonry, theology require monotheism, and divine right requires theology.

eg. (from the above list)
Great Prophet:

Meditation // Have it
Polytheism // Have it
Priesthood // Have it
Monotheism // Requires masonry so isnt allowed to be researched
Theology // Requires monotheism
Divine Right // Requires theology
Mysticism // Have it
Masonry (Warlords patch & BTS) // Still playing vanilla Civ4
Code of Laws // Have it
Civil Service // Great prophet will be able to give me this
Monarchy
Literature
Music
etc.

Now if you understood all that here is the full list of what great people will give you (preference runs top to bottom on all)

Great Prophet:

Meditation
Polytheism
Priesthood
Monotheism
Theology
Divine Right
Mysticism
Masonry (Warlords patch & BTS)
Code of Laws
Civil Service
Monarchy
Literature
Music
Writing
Philosophy
Printing Press
Drama
Aesthetics (BTS)
Alphabet
Paper
Education
Liberalism
Calendar
Masonry (Vanilla & unpatched Warlords)
Animal Husbandry
Construction
Future Tech

Great Scientist:

Writing
Mathematics
Scientific Method
Physics
Education
Printing Press
Fiber Optics
Computers
Laser (BTS)
The Wheel
Alphabet (BTS)
Philosophy
Chemistry
Fission
Fusion
Optics
Paper
Astronomy
Biology
Electricity
Flight
Genetics
Compass
Satellites
Aesthetics (BTS)
Sailing
Alphabet (Vanilla & Warlords)
Calendar
Medicine
Ecology
Advanced Flight (BTS)
Iron Working
Metal Casting
Engineering
Steam Power
Liberalism
Agriculture
Masonry
Bronze Working
Machinery
Gunpowder
Refrigeration
Superconductors (BTS)
Rocketry
Fishing
Combustion
Plastics
Composites
Stealth (BTS)
Mining
Military Science (BTS)
Radio
Meditation
Drama
Theology
Music
Civil Service
Democracy
Corporation
Communism
Economics
Hunting
Archery
Animal Husbandry
Construction
Robotics
Monotheism
Mass Media
Horseback Riding
Replaceable Parts
Rifling
Artillery
Future Tech

Great Artist:

Literature
Drama
Music
Polytheism
Monarchy
Mass Media
Radio
Mysticism
Monotheism
Divine Right
Alphabet (Vanilla & Warlords)
Aesthetics (BTS)
Meditation
Priesthood
Theology
Nationalism
Writing
Philosophy
Printing Press
Liberalism
Pottery
Horseback Riding
Democracy
Education
Military Tradition
Communism
Astronomy
Computers
Feudalism
Constitution
Fishing
Sailing
Paper
Biology
Archery
Masonry
Metal Casting
Civil Service
Guilds
Fascism
Hunting
Animal Husbandry
Bronze Working
Construction
Railroad
Robotics
Future Tech

Great Merchant:

Currency
Banking
Economics
Corporation
Metal Casting
Code of Laws
Mining
Constitution
The Wheel
Alphabet (BTS)
Pottery
Sailing
Paper
Railroad
Industrialism
Monarchy
Civil Service
Guilds
Fascism
Mass Media
Agriculture
Writing
Mathematics
Printing Press
Flight
Machinery
Replaceable Parts
Satellites
Mysticism
Priesthood
Divine Right
Nationalism
Calendar
Scientific Method
Medicine
Horseback Riding
Compass
Steam Power
Future Tech

Great Engineer:

Machinery
Assembly Line
Industrialism
Combustion
Metal Casting
Mining
Iron Working
Engineering
Replaceable Parts
Steam Power
Steel
Robotics
Railroad
Feudalism
Fascism
The Wheel
Plastics
Masonry
Construction
Guilds
Bronze Working
Corporation
Electricity
Animal Husbandry
Gunpowder
Priesthood
Monarchy
Code of Laws
Constitution
Agriculture
Economics
Chemistry
Fission
Genetics
Fusion
Optics
Civil Service
Nationalism
Communism
Ecology
Pottery
Calendar
Currency
Banking
Scientific Method
Physics
Writing (BTS)
Medicine
Refrigeration
Superconductors (BTS)
Computers
Divine Right
Fishing
Mathematics
Flight
Fiber Optics
Hunting
Horseback Riding
Rifling
Future Tech

I was digging through CIV4TechInfos.xml, and found lots of useful information that isn't in the civilopedia. Here is a compiled table.

Era = there are 6 eras in the game, plus future tech.
Cost = base number of beakers to research the tech. This is modified by game speed (quick 67%, epic 150%), map size (duel 100%, huge 150%) and difficulty level (settler 70%, deity 130%).
Religion = how much a Great Prophet values the tech.
Production = how much a Great Engineer values the tech.
Gold = how much a Great Merchant values the tech.
Science = how much a Great Scientist values the tech.
Culture = how much a Great Artist values the tech.
Military = there are no Great Military Leaders, so I assume this is used by the computer AI.
Growth = same as military.
AITrade = I guess this affects the willingness of the AI to trade the tech?

Technology Era Cost Religion Production Gold Science Culture Military Growth AITrade
Fishing Ancient 40 1 3 2 8 0
Hunting Ancient 40 1 2 1 6 7 0
Mining Ancient 50 8 5 3 0
Mysticism Ancient 50 9 1 8 2 0
Agriculture Ancient 60 3 2 4 10 0
Archery Ancient 60 2 2 10 10
Priesthood Ancient 60 10 3 1 6 0
The Wheel Ancient 60 6 4 8 2 3 0
Masonry Ancient 80 1 6 4 2 3 0
Meditation Ancient 80 10 2 7 0
Pottery Ancient 80 2 3 5 9 0
Animal Husbandry Ancient 100 1 4 2 1 3 9 0
Polytheism Ancient 100 10 9 0
Sailing Ancient 100 3 6 2 1 4 0
Bronze Working Ancient 120 5 4 1 6 0
Monotheism Ancient 120 10 1 8 0
Writing Ancient 120 3 2 10 6 0
Horseback Riding Ancient 250 1 1 1 5 8 10
Iron Working Classical 200 8 5 7 6 0
Literature Classical 200 4 10 3 0
Mathematics Classical 250 1 2 10 1 0
Alphabet Classical 300 2 6 8 0
Drama Classical 300 2 2 10 4 0
Monarchy Classical 300 4 3 2 9 3 0
Calendar Classical 350 1 2 1 6 1 0
Code Of Laws Classical 350 7 3 5 2 4 0
Construction Classical 350 1 6 2 1 2 2 0
Compass Classical 400 1 7 2 4 0
Currency Classical 400 2 10 3 0
Metal Casting Classical 450 9 6 5 2 7 0
Theology Medieval 500 10 2 6 0
Music Medieval 600 3 2 10 1 0
Optics Medieval 600 3 8 3 2 0
Paper Medieval 600 2 3 7 2 0
Banking Medieval 700 2 10 0
Feudalism Medieval 700 6 2 5 10
Machinery Medieval 700 10 2 4 6 10
Civil Service Medieval 800 6 2 2 2 1 3 4 0
Philosophy Medieval 800 3 8 6 0
Engineering Medieval 900 8 5 2 7 0
Guilds Medieval 900 5 2 1 2 10
Divine Right Medieval 1000 10 1 1 8 0
Economics Renaissance 1000 3 10 2 3 0
Gunpowder Renaissance 1000 4 4 9 10
Liberalism Renaissance 1200 1 4 5 0
Printing Press Renaissance 1200 3 2 9 6 0
Corporation Renaissance 1400 4 8 2 3 0
Education Renaissance 1400 2 9 4 0
Rifling Renaissance 1400 1 1 10 10
Astronomy Renaissance 1600 7 3 5 0
Nationalism Renaissance 1600 2 1 6 3 3 0
Replaceable Parts Renaissance 1600 8 2 1 5 0
Military Tradition Renaissance 1800 3 10 1 10
Chemistry Renaissance 2000 3 8 0
Constitution Renaissance 2000 3 4 2 2 0
Democracy Renaissance 2200 2 4 0
Fascism Industrial 1800 6 2 1 4 2 0
Scientific Method Industrial 1800 2 1 10 0
Steam Power Industrial 1800 8 1 5 4 3 0
Artillery Industrial 2000 1 10 10
Communism Industrial 2000 2 2 3 1 0
Biology Industrial 2200 7 2 6 0
Railroad Industrial 2200 7 3 1 2 4 10
Combustion Industrial 2400 9 3 2 0
Physics Industrial 2400 2 10 1 0
Steel Industrial 2400 8 6 2 10
Assembly Line Industrial 2600 10 3 3 10
Medicine Industrial 2600 2 1 6 1 8 0
Electricity Industrial 2800 4 7 1 2 10
Industrialism Industrial 3000 10 3 2 4 10
Fission Industrial 3500 3 8 1 10
Mass Media Modern 2800 2 1 9 1 0
Refrigeration Modern 2800 2 4 7 0
Flight Modern 3000 1 2 7 4 3 10
Radio Modern 3000 3 9 5 0
Ecology Modern 3500 2 5 1 10
Satellites Modern 3500 2 7 3 10
Plastics Modern 4000 6 3 2 0
Computers Modern 4500 2 9 3 0
Rocketry Modern 4500 4 8 10
Composites Modern 5000 3 8 10
Robotics Modern 5000 8 2 1 1 10
Fiber Optics Modern 5500 1 9 10
Genetics Modern 5500 3 7 10 10
Fusion Modern 6000 3 8 10
Future Tech Future 6000 1 1 1 1 1 1 0

Yzman

Nov 15, 2005, 12:34 AM

I am confused to what it means by how much a prophet values a tech?

DaveMcW

Nov 15, 2005, 12:36 AM

One of the ways to use a Great Prophet is have him discover a tech. He will pick the available tech with the highest religion value. If there is no religion tech available, he can't discover anything.

snepp

Nov 15, 2005, 12:50 AM

Handy list, thanks.

Cost = base number of beakers to research the tech. This is modified by game speed (quick 85%, normal 130%, epic 195%) and difficulty level.
This should be quick 67%, normal 100%, and epic 150% (according to gamespeedinfo.xml), unless I'm misunderstanding you.

Also, world size modifies research costs:
100% - Dual
110% - Tiny
120% - Small
130% - Standard
140% - Large
150% - Huge

siff

Nov 15, 2005, 07:05 AM

Nice one, how did you compile this list from the xml? by hand?

Siff

LeSphinx

Nov 15, 2005, 07:07 AM

Great Job!!
LeSphinx

DaveMcW

Nov 15, 2005, 07:56 AM

Thanks snepp, I forgot about world sizes.

Shillen

Nov 15, 2005, 08:13 AM

When you finish researching a tech there is a popup window with a choice of new techs to research. The game gives two recommendations and puts growth/military/science/culture etc. in parentheses next to it. So I'm guessing that's where the growth and military fields come in to play. I'm sure the AI also bases its research decision on this.

fed1943

Nov 28, 2005, 05:08 AM

Just a guess,Dave McW:the eight variables are the leader traits.
Can you,please,or somebody else,verify that? (As I know nothing of computers,I'm not able to do it).
Best regards,

BlueRenner

Jan 27, 2006, 01:28 PM

Dave, just an addendum.

I've dug through the XML too... I came to the conclusion that those values also link back to the "Flavors" of every AI Leader.

Check out the "CIV4LeaderHeadInfos.xml" under the "Civilizations" folder. There are values for "FLAVOR_GROWTH" and "FLAVOR_GOLD", which I took to link back directly to what tech certain AI types favor.

It explains why Catherine, who is heavy "FLAVOR_SCIENCE" goes for Writing so early, yet Caeser, who is "FLAVOR_MILITARY" goes for Iron Working.

- Bill

Pentium

Jan 27, 2006, 03:54 PM

I suppose it also affects which techs are recommended to you when you get to choose what to research next?

Gyhth

Feb 07, 2006, 07:27 PM

Religion = how much a Great Prophet values the tech.
Production = how much a Great Engineer values the tech.
Gold = how much a Great Merchant values the tech.
Science = how much a Great Scientist values the tech.
Culture = how much a Great Artist values the tech.
Military = there are no Great Military Leaders, so I assume this is used by the computer AI.
Growth = same as military.

Technology Era Cost Religion Production Gold Science Culture Military Growth AITrade
Fishing Ancient 40 1 3 2 8 0
Hunting Ancient 40 1 2 1 6 7 0
Mining Ancient 50 8 5 3 0
Mysticism Ancient 50 9 1 8 2 0
Agriculture Ancient 60 3 2 4 10 0
Archery Ancient 60 2 2 10 10
Priesthood Ancient 60 10 3 1 6 0
The Wheel Ancient 60 6 4 8 2 3 0
Masonry Ancient 80 1 6 4 2 3 0
Meditation Ancient 80 10 2 7 0
Pottery Ancient 80 2 3 5 9 0
Animal Husbandry Ancient 100 1 4 2 1 3 9 0
Polytheism Ancient 100 10 9 0
Sailing Ancient 100 3 6 2 1 4 0
Bronze Working Ancient 120 5 4 1 6 0
Monotheism Ancient 120 10 1 8 0
Writing Ancient 120 3 2 10 6 0
Horseback Riding Ancient 250 1 1 1 5 8 10

Old topic, but I just found it and just got here, so please forgive my posting late.

What I believe the numbers actually in relation to the Religion, Growth, Military, etc, though it may have to do with the GP ability to research; I wouldn't imagine, say, a priest giving you something like bronze working or another heavily war based tech if they have Monotheism, Meditation, etc to learn - though, if you haven't researched any of them to begin with, I can't really see you having a priest GP - I imagine it deals more towards the AI learning them, but even more so towards the tech list.

When you learn a tech, as most people probably know, beside it, it will sometimes say, "Animal Husbandry (Growth)" or something like that, and I believe that is the primary reason that it's in there; to give people new to the game a guide on what each tech it's self enforces. I imagine it takes into account the cost of the tech, the level of the tech, etc, but I do believe that this would be the main reason it's in there. I can't really see the tech list being able to help people or guide new people if all techs were given the same values in all things.

If I am wrong, I apologuise, but this is what makes the most sense to me. I apologuise for bothering everyone, and I apologuise for posting on such an old topic - I simply believe that this had to be stated.

notagoodname

Jun 07, 2006, 06:43 AM

/Comes over from the civ4 multiplayer ladder site

That chart isn't really that clear.
In the game great people type have a list of techs and a preference for each tech (no techs have the same preference). With the same techs reasearched the same great person type will always give you the same tech.

Now here's a better way to tell precisely what a great person will give you

First: Here's complete list of techs a prophet will get in the order they will try and get them (preference of tech they give you runs from top to bottom)

Great Prophet:
Meditation
Polytheism
Priesthood
Monotheism
Theology
Divine Right
Mysticism (??)
Code of Laws
Civil Service
Monarchy
Literature
Music
Writing
Philosophy
Printing Press
Drama
Alphabet
Paper
Education
Liberalism
Calendar
Masonry
Animal Husbandry
Construction
Future Tech

From that above list you can see that if you dont have meditation a great prophet will give meditation. If you do have medidation a great prophet will try and give you polytheism. If you have meditation and polytheism then the prophet will go down the list (form top to bottom) until there is a tech you can research that the prophet can give you.

Note if you dont have prerequisites for a tech then the great person will try and give you the next tech on the list that you can get.

eg.
If i didnt have masonary and had techs Meditation,polytheism, priesthood, mysticism and code of laws then a great prophet would give me civil service as monotheism requires masonary, theology require monotheism, and dive right requires theology.

eg. (from the above list)
Great Prophet:

Meditation // Have it
Polytheism // Have it
Priesthood // Have it
Monotheism // Requires masonary so isnt allowed to be researched
Theology // Requires monotheism
Divine Right // Requires divine right
Mysticism (??) // Have it
Code of Laws // Have it
Civil Service // Great prophet will be able to give me this
Monarchy
Literature
Music
etc.

Now if you understood all that here is the full list of what great people will give you (preference runs top to bottom on all)

Great Prophet:

Meditation
Polytheism
Priesthood
Monotheism
Theology
Divine Right
Mysticism (??)
Code of Laws
Civil Service
Monarchy
Literature
Music
Writing
Philosophy
Printing Press
Drama
Alphabet
Paper
Education
Liberalism
Calendar
Masonry
Animal Husbandry
Construction
Future Tech

Great Scientist:

Writing
Mathematics
Scientific Method
Physics
Education
Printing Press
Fiber Optics
Computers
The Wheel
Philosophy
Chemistry
Fission
Fusion
Optics
Paper
Astronomy
Biology
Electricity
Flight
Genetics
Compass
Satellites
Sailing
Alphabet
Calendar
Medicine
Ecology
Iron Working
Metal Casting
Engineering
Steam Power
Liberalism
Agriculture
Masonry
Bronze Working
Machinery
Gunpowder
Refrigeration
Rocketry
Fishing
Combustion
Plastics
Composites
Mining
Radio
Meditation
Drama
Theology
Music
Civil Service
Democracy
Corporation
Communism
Economics
Hunting
Archery
Animal Husbandry
Construction
Robotics
Monotheism
Mass Media
Horseback Riding
Replaceable Parts
Rifling
Artillery
Future Tech

Great Artist:

Literature
Drama
Music
Polytheism
Monarchy
Mass Media
Radio
Mysticism
Monotheism
Divine Right
Alphabet
Meditation
Priesthood
Theology
Nationalism
Writing
Philosophy
Printing Press
Liberalism
Pottery
Horseback Riding
Democracy
Education
Military Tradition
Communism
Astronomy
Computers
Feudalism
Constitution
Fishing
Sailing
Paper
Biology
Archery
Masonry
Metal Casting
Civil Service
Guilds
Fascism
Hunting
Animal Husbandry
Bronze Working
Construction
Railroad
Robotics
Future Tech

Great Merchant:

Currency
Banking
Economics
Corporation
Metal Casting
Code of Laws
Mining
Constitution
Wheel
Pottery
Sailing
Paper
Railroad
Industrialism
Monarchy
Civil Service
Guilds
Fascism
Mass Media
Agriculture
Writing
Mathematics
Printing Press
Flight
Machinery
Replaceable Parts
Satellites
Mysticism
Priesthood
Divine Right
Nationalism
Calendar
Scientific Method
Medicine
Horseback Riding
Compass
Steam Power
Future Tech

Great Engineer:

Machinery
Assembly Line
Industrialism
Combustion
Metal Casting
Mining
Iron Working
Engineering
Replaceable Parts
Steam Power
Steel
Robotics
Railroad
Feudalism
Fascism
The Wheel
Plastics
Masonry
Construction
Guilds
Bronze Working
Corporation
Electricity
Animal Husbandry
Gunpowder
Priesthood
Monarchy
Code of Laws
Constitution
Agriculture
Economics
Chemistry
Fission
Genetics
Fusion
Optics
Civil Service
Nationalism
Communism
Ecology
Pottery
Calendar
Currency
Banking
Scientific Method
Physics
Medicine
Refrigeration
Computers
Divine Right
Fishing
Mathematics
Flight
Fiber Optics
Hunting
Horseback Riding
Rifling
Future Tech

DaveMcW

Jun 07, 2006, 09:22 AM

Yeah, that list has been floating around CFC for a while buried in various threads. But rather than burying it in this old article, it might be better to start your own article. :)

Sir Janus

Jun 17, 2006, 06:01 PM

Great work everybody- and something else to factor in. I seem to remember that loads of posts were saying Civ4 was a dumbed down version of civ3 - if only.

I can't help feeling that there is something important hidden in those lists (other than the obvious insurance policy against missing the Oracle). Has anybody had time to do some analysis? (Isn't RL a real bind?)

I hope that if/when I beat deity on a reasonably large map (dream on) that I have to use every single tactic (read exploit if you prefer) known to man - and have a lot of luck. Balance wise I think the game designers (and play testers) have done an exceptional job (except for the always anarchy thing).

Codeman

Jun 28, 2006, 07:48 PM

i'm glad you put the work into this. thanks.

Martinus

Aug 13, 2006, 12:23 AM

Wow, thank you very much for compiling these lists.

This looks like a potential basis for an awesome multiple-slingshot strategy, especially for Philosophical leaders who can afford a heavy-specialist strategy (I'm thinking of Peter here). :goodjob:

juggerxnaut

Aug 13, 2006, 10:49 AM

thank u thank u very very much!it s just the right thing i want.
after long being bored with the regular route, it gives me some clues to develop a new tactic.
now im going through a new game with gandhi.awesome,the first prophet sent
me Civilservice,before i rushed the second GP(scientist) by caste system.
with bureacracy and academy ,my tec soaring.
after that i have been devoting to produce prophet(though it might not be the best way form a stratigic point,just for fun and see how the prophet actually works )
exhilaratingly the tec route in a straight and clear way goes forward.paper,education,liberalism,awesome,perfect .
thank dave again,u bring me a new godd playstyle,thank u.

Eqqman

Aug 17, 2006, 04:20 PM

It also turns out that a GS always contributes at least 500 more beakers to a tech, which will make a difference in your planning at the stage when a single Great Person won't finish the tech completely.

Chillaxation

Sep 18, 2006, 08:46 PM

kniteowl

Oct 22, 2006, 07:18 PM

You should Update this thread to include Techs Great Generals can Pop.

drkodos

Oct 22, 2006, 09:02 PM

You should Update this thread to include Techs Great Generals can Pop.

Generals are unable to lightbulb any techs, but they do give access to special promotions if they are attached to a unit as a Warlord. I believe they have three possible actions: Military Instructor, build Military Academy, or Lead unit as Warlord.

Murky

Oct 23, 2006, 08:06 AM

Good article. I wonder if the AI trade value is how much they value the tech for trade. So if you have the tech the AI will give more in trade for it? If they have the tech, they will ask more in trade for it?

oyzar

Oct 23, 2006, 01:25 PM

This is sooo usefull. Made me able to find out what techs i should not trade to be able to get calendar with my GS(ironworking). Stupid happines.

kniteowl

Nov 01, 2006, 02:26 PM

After the warlords 2.08 Patch The Great Prophet see's mansonry have a high religious value so it looks like you have to update the lighbulbing for the great prophet.

notagoodname

Nov 02, 2006, 08:32 PM

Well my old method of using a prophet to get civil service is now obsolete.

Here is my new method.
If i had techs Meditation,polytheism, priesthood, mysticism, masonary, monotheism, theology and code of laws then a great prophet would give me civil service as divine right requires monarchy.

eg. (from the above list)
Great Prophet:

Meditation // Have it
Polytheism // Have it
Priesthood // Have it
Monotheism // Have it
Theology // Have it
Divine Right // Requires monarchy
Mysticism (??) // Have it
Code of Laws // Have it
Civil Service // Great prophet will be able to give me this
Monarchy
Literature
Music

T-hawk

Nov 04, 2006, 03:28 PM

It's also possible to slingshot Civil Service with the use of a Great Merchant, in any version of either vanilla or Warlords. Here's how:

- avoid Bronze Working so as to block Metal Casting
- avoid both Priesthood and Monotheism so as to block Monarchy
- beeline Pottery - Writing - Mathematics - Currency - Code of Laws
- also get Sailing and Mining
- either build the Great Lighthouse, or build a market and hire two Merchants to pop the Great one (while you research Code of Laws and the other techs)

Here's the full detail:

Great Merchant:

Currency (research it on the way to Code of Laws; you need Math anyway)
Banking (too late to matter)
Economics (late)
Corporation (late)
Metal Casting (block by avoiding Bronze Working)
Code of Laws (research)
Mining (research)
Constitution (late)
Wheel (research)
Pottery (research)
Sailing (research)
Paper (late)
Railroad (late)
Industrialism (late)
Monarchy (either research it, or avoid both Priesthood and Monotheism)
Civil Service (bingo!)

Pros:

This allows ignoring the religious section of the tech tree entirely, since you get to Code of Laws via Currency instead. As compared to the Oracle or Prophet versions of the slingshot, you're spending early research on key economic techs (Writing, Math, Currency) instead of religious junk.

It's a guaranteed slingshot; there's no risk of losing the Oracle to a competing civ.

It really doesn't take longer than the Prophet version. I rolled up a test game in vanilla 1.61, on Monarch difficulty, using Napoleon (Agg/Ind) to take favorable civ traits (Fin, Phi) out of the equation, and pulled off the slingshot in 200 BC. The limiting factor was threefold: first research to Currency, then time to build the market, then popping the Great Merchant itself. I haven't tried the Great Lighthouse version, though intuitively it seems good for an Ind or Phi leader, or if you want the wonder anyway.

Cons:

Skipping Bronze Working (slavery, copper) is definitely a heavy opportunity cost in the early game. If you get BW, you must also get Metal Casting.

You also have to skip the Oracle, because researching Priesthood means that you must also get Monarchy. (Although, an alternate approach is to use the Oracle for CoL, then research Monarchy, which is indeed cheaper than CoL. That also lets you use Caste System instead of a Market to pop the Great Merchant.)

Have at it, folks... :)

Perugia

Nov 09, 2006, 06:08 AM

In the game great people have a list of techs and a preference for each tech (no techs have the same preference). If I read the parentheses correctly it means that no Great People can give you the same tech but self-evidently from the table in the original article and as noted by T-hawk this is not true.

DaviddesJ

Nov 09, 2006, 12:34 PM

If I read the parentheses correctly it means that no Great People can give you the same tech but self-evidently from the table in the original article and as noted by T-hawk this is not true.

No. It says that two techs never have the same priority for the same great person, so, of the available alternatives, there is always one that is "highest ranked", and that is the one you will get.

If there were ties in the preference values, then, it would be possible for two techs to be ranked the same, and you might not be able to predict which one you would get (depending on how the code is written).

Perugia

Nov 09, 2006, 01:31 PM

No. It says that two techs never have the same priority for the same great person, so, of the available alternatives, there is always one that is "highest ranked", and that is the one you will get.

If there were ties in the preference values, then, it would be possible for two techs to be ranked the same, and you might not be able to predict which one you would get (depending on how the code is written).
What determines the preference? There are ties in the numbers in the original article and up to now I had always thought that in ties you got the cheapest but that's not always true eg for a Engineer the lowest (1) ranking techs are
Divine Right
Fishing
Mathematics
Flight
Fiber Optics
Hunting
Horseback Riding
Rifling
Future Tech

Why this order?

DaviddesJ

Nov 09, 2006, 06:39 PM

What determines the preference?

I think it's the order that they appear in CIV4TechInfos.XML.

Perugia

Nov 15, 2006, 05:54 AM

I think it's the order that they appear in CIV4TechInfos.XML.Not unless it's changed since post#1 eg Fishing comes first there (or post one has been sorted). I'll have a look.

DaviddesJ

Nov 15, 2006, 10:46 PM

Not unless it's changed since post#1 eg Fishing comes first there (or post one has been sorted). I'll have a look.

I don't understand your remark. What I said is: among techs that have the same numerical rating for a particular great person type, the preference goes to the one that appears first in the XML file.

Willowmound

Nov 16, 2006, 01:20 AM

It's also possible to slingshot Civil Service with the use of a Great Merchant, in any version of either vanilla or Warlords. Here's how:

<snip>

Have at it, folks... :)

I just tried this with the Great Lighthouse. It took so long to actually get the Great Merchant, I might as well have just have researched CS the hard way.

Not something I'm gonna try again soon, I don't think...

Perugia

Nov 16, 2006, 06:20 AM

I don't understand your remark. What I said is: among techs that have the same numerical rating for a particular great person type, the preference goes to the one that appears first in the XML file.Never mind, my mistake. I was just misinterpreting the order of numerical ratings in the spoiler in post #1 as a true reflection of those in CIV4TechInfos as I did not have the XML file to hand at the time.

ollj

Dec 23, 2006, 03:38 AM

made a minimod that colors techs in the techtree after their flavors:
See My GP Flavor (rainbow techtree) (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=4995523#post4995523)

every tech also has its "flavour" for its "advisor"-text, this is another variable than those value variables in the list above.
AITrade = The ai will NOT give you those techs and may give you more for them because they value them much higher.
Those "my precious" techs a are generally military techs for defense or offense such as horseback riding, gunpowder...
Since the ai just values them higher just research them yourrself.

jasonnorthrup

Feb 17, 2007, 01:30 PM

Hmm. my first impression was that the variables in the xml table were not related to GP as to what the AI would choose to research next based on its priorities. hypothesis: the AI's have different strategies they give different weights to at different times. To choose which tech to research next, it compares the available techs scores with its important strategies; e.g. if production is its highest priority, and Assembly line is among the available choices (a 10 in production), it will definitely choose assembly line to research next. If an AI's 1st priority is religion, it will definitely pick a tech which founds a religion. I'm not sure if I can test this hypothesis, as I dont' know how the AI's will value each strategy when.

Iustus

Feb 17, 2007, 10:04 PM

Pardon me if this is off topic, I happened to stumble across this, and I felt like answering these questions.

made a minimod that colors techs in the techtree after their flavors:
See My GP Flavor (rainbow techtree) (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=4995523#post4995523)

every tech also has its "flavour" for its "advisor"-text, this is another variable than those value variables in the list above.

Hmm. my first impression was that the variables in the xml table were not related to GP as to what the AI would choose to research next based on its priorities. hypothesis: the AI's have different strategies they give different weights to at different times. To choose which tech to research next, it compares the available techs scores with its important strategies; e.g. if production is its highest priority, and Assembly line is among the available choices (a 10 in production), it will definitely choose assembly line to research next. If an AI's 1st priority is religion, it will definitely pick a tech which founds a religion. I'm not sure if I can test this hypothesis, as I dont' know how the AI's will value each strategy when.

The flavor values in the Tech Tree are used as an add on bonus that leaders give to particular techs. This is the relavant code from CvPlayerAI.cpp:

for (iJ = 0; iJ < GC.getNumFlavorTypes(); iJ++)
{
iValue += (AI_getFlavorValue((FlavorTypes)iJ) * GC.getTechInfo((TechTypes)iI).getFlavorValue(iJ) * 20);
}

The important thing to note here is the flavor value from a tech is mulitplied by the flavor value for a leader.

Now, in the default Civ4LeaderheadInfos.xml, each leader has either one or two flavors, with values of 2, 5, or 10. For example, Asoka has a religion flavor of 5, and a science flavor of 2. (All flavors not specified are zero).
<Flavors>
<Flavor>
<FlavorType>FLAVOR_RELIGION</FlavorType>
<iFlavor>5</iFlavor>
</Flavor>
<Flavor>
<FlavorType>FLAVOR_SCIENCE</FlavorType>
<iFlavor>2</iFlavor>
</Flavor>
</Flavors>

In the default Civ4TechInfos.xml, Meditation has a religion flavor of 10, a science flavor of 2 (and a culture flavor of 7). This means that Meditation will have a boost of (10*5 + 2*2) * 20 = 54 * 20 = 1080 bonus points for Asoka. This is at the same scale that a random number from 0-1999 is added to each value, so is a significant, but not overpowering amount.

<Flavors>
<Flavor>
<FlavorType>FLAVOR_RELIGION</FlavorType>
<iFlavor>10</iFlavor>
</Flavor>
<Flavor>
<FlavorType>FLAVOR_SCIENCE</FlavorType>
<iFlavor>2</iFlavor>
</Flavor>
<Flavor>
<FlavorType>FLAVOR_CULTURE</FlavorType>
<iFlavor>7</iFlavor>
</Flavor>
</Flavors>

Now looking at Polytheism, it has a religious flavor of 10, (and a culture flavor of 9). For Asoka, this gives us 5 * 10 * 20 = 1000 bonus. So for Asoka, these two have almost the same bonus.

<Flavors>
<Flavor>
<FlavorType>FLAVOR_RELIGION</FlavorType>
<iFlavor>10</iFlavor>
</Flavor>
<Flavor>
<FlavorType>FLAVOR_CULTURE</FlavorType>
<iFlavor>9</iFlavor>
</Flavor>
</Flavors>

Now, if you compare this with, say Peter, who has a science flavor of 5, and a growth flavor of 2, you get that Peter gives Meditation a boost of 2 * 5 * 20 = 200, while giving Polytheism no boost at all. 200 is not a very large number compared to other factors however.

<Flavors>
<Flavor>
<FlavorType>FLAVOR_SCIENCE</FlavorType>
<iFlavor>5</iFlavor>
</Flavor>
<Flavor>
<FlavorType>FLAVOR_GROWTH</FlavorType>
<iFlavor>2</iFlavor>
</Flavor>
</Flavors>

On the extreme end, you could look for someone with a flavor of 10 in something (Ragnar has a 10 flavor in Military), and a tech with a high flavor in the same thing (Military Tradition has a 10 flavor in military) for a high synergy. Ragnar gets a 10 * 10 * 20 = +2000 bonus with military tradition, so he is very likely to research that tech as soon as it makes sense to do so.

<Flavors>
<Flavor>
<FlavorType>FLAVOR_MILITARY</FlavorType>
<iFlavor>10</iFlavor>
</Flavor>
</Flavors>

<Flavors>
<Flavor>
<FlavorType>FLAVOR_MILITARY</FlavorType>
<iFlavor>10</iFlavor>
</Flavor>
<Flavor>
<FlavorType>FLAVOR_CULTURE</FlavorType>
<iFlavor>3</iFlavor>
</Flavor>
<Flavor>
<FlavorType>FLAVOR_GROWTH</FlavorType>
<iFlavor>1</iFlavor>
</Flavor>
</Flavors>

The advisor type of a tech (or a unit) is only used for human players, for giving suggestions on what to research (or build) next. The popup wants to give two suggestions for techs, so it finds the best choice (including the large random factor), then finds the next best choice, ignoring all techs which have the same advisor as the best choice. This way, you will always be given two 'best' choices that use different advisors.

AITrade = The ai will NOT give you those techs and may give you more for them because they value them much higher.
Those "my precious" techs a are generally military techs for defense or offense such as horseback riding, gunpowder...
Since the ai just values them higher just research them yourrself.

This is not entirely accurate. Actually, the number in the "iAITradeModifier" field is a percentage increase in the value of that tech, based on its calculated value (basically its research cost). In the default Civ4TechInfos.xml, a tech only has a value of 0, (or 100% value), or 10 (110% value). There is nothing about not gifting these techs.

Now you know more than you ever wanted to know about flavors and advisors :)

-Iustus

LowtherCastle

Mar 15, 2007, 06:54 AM

Now you know more than you ever wanted to know about flavors and advisors :), but still not quite enough...? :confused:

-IustusWell, I find this info you added great, but it doesn't answer all my questions on the subject, if anything it raises more than it answers...;).

Such as: What are those other (non-bonus) factors and how do I get a handle on them so I can come as close as possible to guessing what the AI will research next, and even maybe manipulate his choice to my advantage?

oyzar

Apr 11, 2007, 01:30 AM

this guide is so usefull(that i have to bump it up top again so i dont have to search for it every time:P).

namliaM

Apr 11, 2007, 01:38 AM

Wodan

Apr 12, 2007, 03:38 AM

cabert

Apr 12, 2007, 06:48 AM

I just thought I would leave my mark on this thread as well and make "public" my techtree which I made from these lists.

I think looking at the techtree and finding the numbers is easier than using a list.

See my sig or if it ever disappears from my sig find it here (http://img103.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gptechtreehi7.jpg) on imageshack

I don't think it's easier.
I copied the whole thing into a simple text file, I search for the tech I want to beeline to and check who can lightbulb it and what there is on his list before my target tech.
Of course I need the tech tree too, to see the prereqs and such, but since you can't do a search on a picture, I don't understand how you would use your image version.

Wodan

Apr 12, 2007, 08:05 AM

Why would you have to do a text search for a tech that you already know where it is in the tree? That's the whole point... you don't have to do a search in the first place, thus it's easier.

Wodan

cabert

Apr 12, 2007, 08:11 AM

Why would you have to do a text search for a tech that you already know where it is in the tree? That's the whole point... you don't have to do a search in the first place, thus it's easier.

Wodan
except when the tech you want to lightbulb is number 22, and you don't know where the other 21 are :p

namliaM

Apr 12, 2007, 08:55 AM

The point of the tree is that you "simply" must not be able to research/bulb a lower tech, who cares if you are about to bulb tech #22 where #21 is??
When #21 is ... Mass Media while #22 is ... CS and #10 Masonry is blocking you from bulbing CS.

I think the tech tree is nicer cause I can picture where I am on the techtree much easier than find where I am in a list (which is all over the place in the techtree). Then find the tech I want to bulb or can bulb right now. And see what I have to do (or not do) in order to get where I want to go.

Some people are visual, others are conceptual (lists) to each his own.

cabert

Apr 12, 2007, 08:59 AM

Some people are visual, others are conceptual (lists) to each his own.
that must be so, i'm a conceptual guy (it's linked to "auditive" kind of people, AFAIK)

DaviddesJ

Apr 12, 2007, 02:36 PM

I don't find the tree at all useful, but to each his own.

If we are fixing spelling errors, it sure would be nice to change the title of this thread from "Prefences" to "Preferences".

UNeverNo

Jun 25, 2007, 03:11 PM

I think it's the order that they appear in CIV4TechInfos.XML.
Which Tag in Civ4TechInfos.xml determines the order? Could you explain that please or somebody else?

EmperorFool

Jun 26, 2007, 03:32 AM

Which Tag in Civ4TechInfos.xml determines the order? Could you explain that please or somebody else?

From this post by DaviddesJ and looking at the XML file, here's what I understand.

For any particular great person type, first sort the techs by their flavor value and then sort ties by the order the techs appear in the file.

For example, the religion flavor values for a few techs (in file order):

Mysticism: 9
Meditation: 10
Polytheism: 10
Priesthood: 10
Monotheism: 10
Monarchy: 4
Literature: 4
Code of Laws: 7

Sorting by value, file-order gives

Meditation
Polytheism
Priesthood
Monotheism
Mysticism
Code of Laws
Monarchy
Literature

Yay, they are in the correct order. Note that some intervening techs are missing, like Theology, Divine Right, Masony, and Civil Service, but this is because I left them out of the file list. They have flavor values that would place them among the techs I have listed, even though they appear later in the file.

The above techs are the only ones I tested by looking at the file.

One mod idea I'd like to pursue is to put this information into Sevopedia, but I'm wrestling with how.

The easier way is to list the previous and next techs prefered by each great person type.

For example, when looking at Civil Service, you'd see

Scientist: Music / Democracy
Prophet: Code of Laws / Monarchy
Artist: Metal Casting / Guilds
Merchant: Monarchy / Guilds
Engineer: Optics / Nationalism

If you were expecting a Great Scientist and wanted to pop for Civil Service, you'd need to know that you either have every higher-valued tech or that you couldn't research them presently (lacking prerequisites).

The above mod would help you backtrack along the path, but would require a bit of busy-work for the player.

A better solution would drive at answering the key question: what must I research and/or avoid researching so that I can pop for this tech?

Can anyone explain what information to display to answer this question?

Continuing the example using a GS and Civil Service, assume you have every tech higher in the list except Music. To avoid popping for Music, you must avoid having Music's prerequisites. Both require Mathematics, but Music also requires Literature or Drama. Thus you must avoid researching Literature or Drama as either would open up Music.

Figuring this out is a PITA using the first method I described. It would be better to list this information on both Literature and Drama using your current known technologies.

It knows Civil Service is the next tech in line for a GS because you cannot research or have researched all techs prefered by the GS.
It knows Music is higher in the list.
It knows that Literature is a prerequisite.
It would say on Literature: "This tech will allow GS to help research Music rather than Civil Service."

It would need to say the same thing for Drama, and in the case where a tech had two required prerequisites say so. (If you had to have both Drama and Literature it would say, "This tech along with Drama will allow GS to help research Music rather than Civil Service.")

For bonus points, on Civil Service it would say, "Drama or Literature would allow GS to help research Music." I think this is less important, and it would be complicated if there were many missing techs higher in the list.

Is there a better way to represent this information in-game? I'm up for a challenge! I think I could bang this out in Python without too much difficulty if we can think of a way to accurately and clearly present the information. It's all there in the XML and TechInfo objects.

EmperorFool

Jun 26, 2007, 03:39 AM

Sorry, I didn't clearly answer your question. The tags in particular in Civ4TechInfos.xml are within the <Flavors> element

<Flavors>
<Flavor>
<FlavorType>FLAVOR_MILITARY</FlavorType>
<iFlavor>3</iFlavor>
</Flavor>
<Flavor>
<FlavorType>FLAVOR_RELIGION</FlavorType>
<iFlavor>6</iFlavor>
</Flavor>
<Flavor>
<FlavorType>FLAVOR_PRODUCTION</FlavorType>
<iFlavor>2</iFlavor>
</Flavor>
<Flavor>
<FlavorType>FLAVOR_GOLD</FlavorType>
<iFlavor>2</iFlavor>
</Flavor>
<Flavor>
<FlavorType>FLAVOR_SCIENCE</FlavorType>
<iFlavor>2</iFlavor>
</Flavor>
<Flavor>
<FlavorType>FLAVOR_CULTURE</FlavorType>
<iFlavor>1</iFlavor>
</Flavor>
<Flavor>
<FlavorType>FLAVOR_GROWTH</FlavorType>
<iFlavor>4</iFlavor>
</Flavor>
</Flavors>

I assume it maps them intelligently, for example Great Merchant uses FLAVOR_GOLD.

For techs with the same value, it uses the order in which they appear in the file.

namliaM

Jun 26, 2007, 04:48 AM

how about using my techtree numbering to enter the information directly into the techtree itself?

Determaining what is bulbed by whom next is hard as you have to determain what someone is going to research in the meantime, while displaying the bulb order would allow someone to manipulate the techtree in such a way he can bulb what he wants.

EmperorFool

Jun 26, 2007, 07:53 AM

The main thing I see being useful is when you have a particular expected type of great person on the way (or one lying around) and want them to lightbulb a particular tech.

You may need to acquire some other techs first:

Prerequisites for the given tech
Cheaper techs higher in the preference list

On top of that, you may acquire other techs while waiting to pop the great person:

Unrelated research
Trading opportunities

In all these cases you need to know which techs to acquire (to make your desired lightbulb possible) and which techs to avoid (to keep from enabling a tech that's more highly valued by the great person).

Given that the game knows what you have already researched and the preference orders for all the techs and great people, it should be able to tell you this without knowing your intented lightbulb tech. For each great person, the game already chooses which tech to lightbulb using this information. I'd like to present this to the user, along with the effect of researching each possible tech individually.

"If I research Literature, which great people will change the tech they will lightbulb?"

Once I get that presented, I figure we can extend it to consider multiple techs at once.

"If I research Literature, what other techs that I can research right now must I research to get each great person to change the tech they will lightbulb?"

The latter is important because if a tech has two prerequisites that I haven't researched, I can safely research one of them without changing the tech to be lightbulbed.

I haven't looked at your mod code yet, but can you quickly answer one question: did you type in the list data yourself, or are you inspecting the TechInfos to generate the numbers in the tech tree?

ruff_hi

Jun 26, 2007, 10:18 AM

I am actually thinking along the lines of a tech bulbing screen. The top would contain your current research options (what techs are available to research) with the first column being blank while the left side would show the 5 Great People. The body of the screen would show the tech that the GP would bulb.

Thus, if you looked along the GA line, it would show the current tech that a GA would bulb, the next column would show the tech the GA would bulb if you knew the tech at the top of that column (it might be the same, it might be different).

This would help you work out what type of GP you wanted but it would also warn you off researching a certain tech.

UNeverNo

Jun 26, 2007, 10:23 AM

namliaM

Jun 26, 2007, 12:03 PM

The problem with such a screen is this bulbing list is not exactly liniar.... Researching a certain tech may just block you from bulbing the exact thing you are trying to bulb...

I.e. I want to bulb Education ASAP with a Scientist...
The strangest thing happens if I dont research Meditation... Philo is blocked and Education is the first tech on the list after researching paper.

How are you going to fit this into a liniar thing? You dont... I dont think so... Cause it is all over the techtree....

Jeff1787

Jul 21, 2007, 03:22 PM

Here are two charts that might help. One has all of the BtS technologies listed in alphabetical order and the preference of each GP to research. The other has the research order of each GP on one page.

Next week when I get BtS I will double check all of my figures and post again.

Jeff1787

Jul 21, 2007, 03:24 PM

Here is the other one...

levyavi

Jul 23, 2007, 08:33 PM

I have a question regarding the light bulbing.
Sometimes the GP is able to discover the technology from scratch. On other times it only adds beakers to research. Does anyone know how does it work? is there a cap to the # of beakers that a GP can contribute?

DaviddesJ

Jul 23, 2007, 09:11 PM

Sometimes the GP is able to discover the technology from scratch. On other times it only adds beakers to research. Does anyone know how does it work? is there a cap to the # of beakers that a GP can contribute?

Great Scientist gives up to (1500 + 3*pop) beakers
Other Great People give up to (1000 + 2*pop) beakers

pigswill

Aug 23, 2007, 03:21 AM

Looking through Jeff1787's charts it appears that masonry has been removed from GP tech preferences thus restoring the GP CS slingshot. Is this correct?

vale

Aug 23, 2007, 04:35 AM

Looking through Jeff1787's charts it appears that masonry has been removed from GP tech preferences thus restoring the GP CS slingshot. Is this correct?

<Flavor>
<FlavorType>FLAVOR_MILITARY</FlavorType>
<iFlavor>3</iFlavor>
</Flavor>
<Flavor>
<FlavorType>FLAVOR_RELIGION</FlavorType>
<iFlavor>8</iFlavor>
</Flavor>
<Flavor>
<FlavorType>FLAVOR_PRODUCTION</FlavorType>
<iFlavor>6</iFlavor>
</Flavor>
<Flavor>
<FlavorType>FLAVOR_SCIENCE</FlavorType>
<iFlavor>4</iFlavor>
</Flavor>
<Flavor>
<FlavorType>FLAVOR_CULTURE</FlavorType>
<iFlavor>2</iFlavor>
</Flavor>

So if I'm understanding what FLAVOR_RELIGION means, the answer would be no since that chart is wrong.

Edited to add: Just tested in game. No such luck. I have a screenshot but photobucket is down at the moment.

HolyHandGrenade

Sep 10, 2007, 03:55 AM

Great Prophet:
...
Drama
Aesthetics (BTS)
Alphabet
...

Now if you understood all that here is the full list of what great people will give you (preference runs top to bottom on all)

Great Prophet:

...
Drama
Alphabet
Aesthetics (BTS)
...

Hmm - which one is correct? Aesthetics before Alphabet or vice versa?

EmperorFool

Sep 10, 2007, 10:10 AM

<shameless-plug>

Load the BUG mod (see my sig below) and you can see which tech each GP will research based on what techs you have researched and have selected to research in the TechChooser.

</shameless-plug>

HolyHandGrenade

Sep 10, 2007, 10:56 AM

EmperorFool

Sep 10, 2007, 03:35 PM

BUG includes some of the same mods that HoF includes, so they need to be used separately. The reason is that they modify many of the same files. While you could try to run them together, I expect you'd get mixed results.

HolyHandGrenade

Sep 11, 2007, 12:20 AM

DaveMcW

Sep 12, 2007, 08:44 AM

Drama
Aesthetics (BTS)
Alphabet

... is the correct one.

oyzar

Mar 13, 2008, 05:27 AM

Hof includes most of the usefull BUG things...

BCLG100

Jun 05, 2008, 09:15 AM

I keep struggling to find it, i wish it was stickied. Everytime i end up looking on the third page before i realise it was on the first!