I've got an idea to make an Modern Combat mod now its possible! Anyone interested?

I do have very basic modding knowledge and I now how to make civ's my own and a few units.

Note: Keep political discussions out plz!

Scope will be 1991-2020

Nations:
America - Navy Seal and M1 Abrams - George Bush Sr.
Great Britain - SAS commando and Challenger II - Tony Blair
Israel - Merkava Mk.II and Mossad Agent - Yitzak Rabin
Russia - T90 and Security Troops - Boris Jeltsin (Likely I will avoid Putin)
Iraq - SCUD Missile and National Guard - Saddam Hussein
Iran - SCUD Missile and T90 - Ali Khamenei
China - Red Guard and T90 - Hu-Jin Tau
Others could be also India, Pakistan, Japan, North-Korea and Turkey

Religions (For a mod like this, religion is a must) ofcourse no bonusus to avoid that were accidently stereotyping one, also, the Islam is split to reflect the differinces between Sunism and Sjiïtism:
Christianity
Sunism
Sjiïtism
Judaïsm
Hinduïsm
Buddism

Civics:
Government: Police State - Universal Suffrage - Representation
Labor: Emancipation - Collectivism - Labor Union
Legal: Nationhood - Free Speech - Bureaucracy
Religion: Theocracy - Free Religion - Paganism/Atheïsm (No-State Religion: No spread of Religion, 20% Science)
Economy: Captalism - Socialism - Environmentalism

I like this idea - but i think it should start earlier, at the iraq-iran war or maybe even the creation of israel. France should also be a part of this. And of course there needs to be a terrorist unit as well as resistance fighters and whatnot.

Sounds good! Especially the religion idea! But how will you simulate Suni attacks on Sjiit's if both are in cities belonging to one country?

Likely I wont simulate this, that would be, way to controversial. But yet one united Islam religion would be pointless in this case. Better would be, that Sunni nations will attack Sjiïte nations to "liberate" the Sunni's there and reversed.

What does Iraq have to do with the war on terrorism?

Isn't Al Qaeda in Afghanistan?
Doesn't Osama Bin Laden hail from Saudi Arabia?
Isn't Iran the Islamo-Fascist state?

Even so, isn't invading Iraq the easy part?

I think u should add Afghanistan's talebans ;)

What does Iraq have to do with the war on terrorism?

Isn't Al Qaeda in Afghanistan?
Doesn't Osama Bin Laden hail from Saudi Arabia?
Isn't Iran the Islamo-Fascist state?

Even so, isn't invading Iraq the easy part?

Its suits in the scope (1991-2020), Iraq is an must for both gulf-wars.

And Iran ain't Islamo-Fascist, its Theocratic but it isnt Fascist; Fascism is totalarian capitalism and Iran is somewhat Totalarian Theocracy (Between Socialism and Captalism maybe). Iraq was also a Muslim theocracy, but its slightly more alligned to Fascism (thus Islamo-Fascist). But lets stop with that discussions before it leads to nation-bashing.

Afghanistan and France are also in my mind, they are very likely!

What does Iraq have to do with the war on terrorism?

Don't you know that WMDs may have possibly existed in some basic form at some unidentified point in time, perhaps?

If you don't, then the terrorists win!

Isn't Al Qaeda in Afghanistan?

Apparently Al Qaeda is everywhere. Why, they could even be hidding under your bed (in the old floorboards that the pinko commies used to use in the 50s). That's why it's necessary to have access to your library records.

Come to think of it, these questions sound a lot like something someone in Al Qaeda would ask....hmmmmm....

Doesn't Osama Bin Laden hail from Saudi Arabia?

Are you trying to besmirch the good name of the Bin Ladens?? Why, I'm appalled. Appalled, I tell you!

Isn't Iran the Islamo-Fascist state?

Lots of countries are more Islamo-Facist than Iraq. But hey, let's not get bogged down in the details. There is a war to be won! (or was that Mission Accomplished already?)

What was I saying? Oh yeah...why do you hate America?

Even so, isn't invading Iraq the easy part?

Invading is always the easy part. Leaving, well, that's a different story...

(okay...enough political satirzing from me...interesting idea for a mod, but methinks you'll get 20 people with 21 different opinions on it)

Iraq was also a Muslim theocracy, but its slightly more alligned to Fascism (thus Islamo-Fascist). Iraq has never in it's history been a Theocracy. It has been a British colony, then a puppet secular monarchy, a military junta and a Baathist dictatirship. Islamic Sheria law has never been a part of Iraqi law or constitution until today.
Today, according to the recently voted constitution enforced by US invasion; Iraq is a Shiite Theocratic Islamic Federation with a Kurdish fellow as it's president.

Thx, Your knowledge brought alot forward! Ain't Baathism (Practiced by the Baa'ath Party) actually a mixture between Theocracy, Fascism and Socialism while none of them are actually dominant?

Its suits in the scope (1991-2020), Iraq is an must for both gulf-wars.

The gulf war is totally seperate from the war on terror. This would be like having a scenario called "the korean war", and having it start in World War 2.

And Iran ain't Islamo-Fascist, its Theocratic but it isnt Fascist;

Islamo-Fascism isn't Fascism. But I understand it's a vague term. Let's use a different name. Islamic Fundamentalism.

Iraq was also a Muslim theocracy,

Iraq under Saddam Hussein wasn't a Muslim Theocracy. It was a secular state. As opposed to being founded on the premise of Islamic Fundamentalism, it was founded on the premise of Arab Nationalism. They kept religion largely out of civic life (at least, to the degree that America does). This is one of the dividing forces in the middle east: Secular Arab Nationalism versus Theocratic Islam.

The new Iraq is a Muslim Theocracy. Islamic Laws are now written into their constitution.

Well, youre right. I will call it Modern Combat Mod from now on.

Can you play as Iraq invading the US to destroy their WMD and their facist government?

Sorry to be opposite of popular belief... but the way the AMericans think is 100% opposite from the way Europe and Asia think.

So in their minds Iraq could be a good guy and USA the bad.


So that option must be open as well ;)

I want to see how USA will lie to UN :p

Thx, Your knowledge brought alot forward! Ain't Baathism (Practiced by the Baa'ath Party) actually a mixture between Theocracy, Fascism and Socialism while none of them are actually dominant?Fascism and Socialism yes, but what part of Thoecracy you think was being practiced in Iraq? But anyway, i don't see a reason we should discuss it here.

Modern combat could be cool. But a lot of combat is between superpowers and smaller states who are technically inferior.

The goal of the superpower is no longer to conquer but to reshape the society. And the goal of the small state is not to win but to outlast the superpower until it costs them too much and their economy suffers.

If modern combat were like ancient combat, then the USA would literally just walk through Iraq, kill everyone, and unapologetically call it their new vacation ground. You can't forget the role of the UN and the declaration of human rights. Razing, genocide, and random conquest are just simply not tolerated anymore.

Well, I certainly will do balancing measures in that case.(Just they did in the Desert war Scenario) Maybe possible scenarios that pretend for example that Turkey doesnt allow US troops to pass, causing them need to invade from the Persian Gulf and Kuwait. Besides, youre supposed try changing history after all!

whats up with red guard for china? those dont really exist today, and they are not infantry, or anything like that, most of them are university students

Well, what I should call them then? Shock Infantry, perhaps Chinese Shock Infantry?

Here is a taste of the civics system that will feature in the mod!

http://img460.imageshack.us/img460/8930/civicsys5kz.jpg

Discuss!

I think this is a good idea in about 50 years when ppl don't feel the need to express their opinions in such knee-jerk ways.

That aside, best of luck to you.

Apparently Al Qaeda is everywhere. Why, they could even be hidding under your bed (in the old floorboards that the pinko commies used to use in the 50s).

Hey maybe we can just make a series called "Politcal paranoia: Scaring entire populations to unify for an unatainable goal or against vague enemies"

But anyways, good mod idea.

you should make al qaeda as a barbarian civ

Barbarians will represent general (Muslim) terror groups in the mod.

Also Paganism will feature in the mod, it represents heathen state religions and leadercult's featuring in Communist state's. But since Heathen religions are somewhat out of the point, I might consider renaming it to Atheism.

Why only Muslim terrorists?

where's the IRA?

where's the IRA?

See what I mean? See my post above. In America we only think Middle East. This War on Terrorism is a joke. The scope of terrorism is so huge, the only way you could wage a successful "war" is bring in big brother and treat everyone like a suspect. It's an ideal, not a country or a specific group of people. So, I think this mod's name be changed to "The world Washington D.C. Lives in".

See what I mean? See my post above. In America we only think Middle East. This War on Terrorism is a joke. The scope of terrorism is so huge, the only way you could wage a successful "war" is bring in big brother and treat everyone like a suspect. It's an ideal, not a country or a specific group of people. So, I think this mod's name be changed to "The world Washington D.C. Lives in".
Wasn't there a certain something in the first post of the thread that said "Keep political discussions out"?

Yeah... thanks.
And please, don't respond with more ranting.

Wasn't there a certain something in the first post of the thread that said "Keep political discussions out"?

Yeah... thanks.
And please, don't respond with more ranting.

Alright alright... sorry.

Besides, the name is now Modern Combat Mod (Though there still stands War on Terrorism!)

Besides, didnt I put Muslim between ()'s?

Besides, the name is now Modern Combat Mod (Though there still stands War on Terrorism!)

Besides, didnt I put Muslim between ()'s?
Sometimes it really doesn't matter what the context is really towards. Occasionally there are times when people 'need' to say something on a certain topic. I know from experience, and my own mistakes, this is true.

Don't worry about it too much Kaiser.
And thank you for the apology Dikaioma, I really do appreciate it.

Wasn't there a certain something in the first post of the thread that said "Keep political discussions out"?

That's the thing. It's much more political to say "the terrorists are in Iraq". To say that the terrorists weren't in Iraq until after Saddam was ousted makes you a part of the reality-based community.

Fighting terrorism isn't political.
But the so called "war on terror" is.

"Modern Combat" is a much more sane assessment of this mod, and one that I support. :goodjob: If there are going to be terrorists, though, it needs to range from Osama Bin Laden to Timothy McVeigh.

This might be too recent to be able to pulled off effectively if formed by consensus... largely because there is none. Personally, I feel like for this to focus on the issue of terrorism, it's going to require a massive overhaul of current game mechanics because the current game is not really tailored to handle the nuiances of modern politics and terrorism/counter-terrorism in particular.

There has to be way more diplomatic and internal politics features than whatever the game currently offers because otherwise Iraq is going to get flattened and be out of the game in the first five turns...

Why not narrow this mod into a iraq war scenario, since most combat will betaking place in that part of the world. Well most of the combat that could be replicated by civ4 anyway(in terms of terroism). This way you can focus on a more compact scenario with is more fun and playable gameplay. You could better represent the sunni shia divide and build it on a much smaller map, meaning less lag time for users. With the new event system in place you would be able to produce a accurate time line of the event that have come to pass i.e. the massive break out of violence in 2004 the siege of An Najaf and Al Fullja. And the falling support of the american and coalitions public meaning withdrawls of their forces from the battlefield. it would be easier to represent the various factions on the battlfield i.e. Sunni, shia, kurd and the terroist groups and militias like anasr al sunna, al qaeda in Iraq, Mardi Army, badr Brigade. You could also include Iran and syria to stir the flames of revolt.

I guess what im trying to say is the scope you have chosen seems too large and complex to build a good Mod/scenario on.

you should include Canada, we do help on the war, we just don't the credit.

maybe "war in the middle east" would be a good name? Not as politcal as "war on terror" but also fits the setting better than "modern combat"?

Modern Combat, the Modern World, the War on Terror, War in the Middle East are all good titles. But let's not argue semantics -- if the modules name is changed too many times we might not even remember what it is anymore. :)

Canada along with other nations such as Australia would be good. I also would include Syria, Libya and Chechnya (Not really a nation but rebelling republic, but yet there are notable enough that I think its absurd to not include). Also, I made the scope a bit wider - It will begin in 1975 (Pre Iraq-Iran war).

Why not narrow this mod into a iraq war scenario, since most combat will betaking place in that part of the world. Well most of the combat that could be replicated by civ4 anyway(in terms of terroism). This way you can focus on a more compact scenario with is more fun and playable gameplay. You could better represent the sunni shia divide and build it on a much smaller map, meaning less lag time for users. With the new event system in place you would be able to produce a accurate time line of the event that have come to pass i.e. the massive break out of violence in 2004 the siege of An Najaf and Al Fullja. And the falling support of the american and coalitions public meaning withdrawls of their forces from the battlefield. it would be easier to represent the various factions on the battlfield i.e. Sunni, shia, kurd and the terroist groups and militias like anasr al sunna, al qaeda in Iraq, Mardi Army, badr Brigade. You could also include Iran and syria to stir the flames of revolt.

I guess what im trying to say is the scope you have chosen seems too large and complex to build a good Mod/scenario on.
This is the best idea so far.

I guess what im trying to say is the scope you have chosen seems too large and complex to build a good Mod/scenario on.

Every heard of Python?

So, can we get a full list of Civs please?
And is there a specific map or does it start from scratch?

Its suits in the scope (1991-2020), Iraq is an must for both gulf-wars.

And Iran ain't Islamo-Fascist, its Theocratic but it isnt Fascist; Fascism is totalarian capitalism and Iran is somewhat Totalarian Theocracy (Between Socialism and Captalism maybe). Iraq was also a Muslim theocracy, but its slightly more alligned to Fascism (thus Islamo-Fascist). But lets stop with that discussions before it leads to nation-bashing.

Afghanistan and France are also in my mind, they are very likely!

Iraq was never a muslim state. thats why saddam and osama weren't the best of friends. anyone who tells you different is a government propagandist. :)

and why only muslim terrorists. what about IRA, ETA?

Not yet, and I might consider using existing medium sized earth maps that will be edited.

And besides, this mod concentrates on modern conflicts (In The Middle-East and Asia), Christian, Neo-Nazi and Socialist terrorists simply carry out attacks that even doesnt surpasses the newspaper like it did before 9/11. Also these were somewhat impossible to make and they dont have massive training camps like Al-Qaida. Besides terrorism isnt featuring a major position, Its Modern Combat in General since short! And in the late stages (after 2010), you might found yourself as the US struggling against China and North-Korea while the terrorists are utterly defeated.

Also, this scenario it will feature doesnt have the US or UK itself on the map: Likely the US will start in Turkey or Saudi-Arabia (Their allies). Great Britian will hold the Suez channel (With loads of soldiers) and Greece.

what about IRA, ETA?
They're out of fashion and American propoganda. So they won't fit :p

Not yet, and I might consider using existing medium sized earth maps that will be edited.

And besides, this mod concentrates on modern conflicts (In The Middle-East and Asia), Christian, Neo-Nazi and Socialist terrorists simply carry out attacks that even doesnt surpasses the newspaper like it did before 9/11. Also these were somewhat impossible to make and they dont have massive training camps like Al-Qaida. Besides terrorism isnt featuring a major position, Its Modern Combat in General since short! And in the late stages (after 2010), you might found yourself as the US struggling against China and North-Korea while the terrorists are utterly defeated.

Also, this scenario it will feature doesnt have the US or UK itself on the map: Likely the US will start in Turkey or Saudi-Arabia (Their allies). Great Britian will hold the Suez channel (With loads of soldiers) and Greece.


a modern combat mod with british soldiers holding the suez? why? us and uk have the same allies in the area so why the suez?

also, turkey never agreed to let the "coalition" base forces there. and i find that the scope of 9/11 is greatly exaggerated. one attack versus the IRA keeping the uk in fear for decades. come on, theres no comparison.

Unfortunetly for you, this mod focusus on the Middle-East and Asia.

I want to see how USA will lie to UN :p

I want to see how the UN will fail to stop tens of thousands of Kurds being killed :p

But back to the mod. I think it'd be qutie difficult to do a 'war on terror' without making some fundamental changes to the game. First of all, the methods terrorists use to attack are radically different from a conventional army - Civ is pretty much all about conventional armies. For an example of the problems this could create; terrorists do not operate as nations. How does one work that in with the idea of borders, aside from anything else? I suppose invisible units who can go anywhere would work, but how about training and recruiting people? Training camps could work, but (As far as I know) the London bombers hadn't been to such training camps.

Another, more significant concern, is that of victory conditions. How do terrorists win? Extract an apology from western nations and assure a permanent withdrawal of western forces from whatever territory? How do legitimate nations win? I daresay even if terrorist networks were entirely wiped out, the ideologies would remain and sprout up in new ways. How does one simulate, for example, cyber-terrorism? (Which is an imminent, possibly inevitable event in our future.)

I dunno. It just seems like this would be a tough one to do in general, never mind given the restrictions of the Civ engine.

Well, I have considerations to simply turn it into a General Modern Combat mod with all important Modern nations in it. Also a few Muslim and Arab Nationalist regimes included but also nations such as NK and China will be included. Persia and Rome will turned into modern nations and every nation get's a modern UU suiting in the timescale 1975-future.

Well, personally I think that if you are going to make a modern mod then you should include a modern map/scenario with it, and if you are doing that then the "war on terror" seems a very good way to do it and you can only include the Eastern Hemisphere since that is where most of the fighting in that war is taking place, thus a more detailed map. I am willing to help with anything you need btw.

Well, personally I think that if you are going to make a modern mod then you should include a modern map/scenario with it, and if you are doing that then the "war on terror" seems a very good way to do it and you can only include the Eastern Hemisphere since that is where most of the fighting in that war is taking place, thus a more detailed map. I am willing to help with anything you need btw.


Your should be making a map stretching from Moscow to the South of the Arab peninsula and from Egypt to Japan. Greece should be British ground (Its an UK ally) ,Japan and South-Korea should be for US. It should start in 1975 (Rise of Muslim terrorism and decay of the Soviet Union). You could also start with China and India already, if you make cities of Afghanistan, Pakistan and such, make them Barbarian. You wont need the modding files yet in that way. When youre finished, send the map file to me.

There's no such thing as "Muslim Terrorism", you have to watch the terminology. Terrorism is terrorism, and it doesn't have a religion. All terrorists are brainwashed, some with radical Islamic lies, others with Nazi or Communist idealism and some by CIA propaganda. It doesn't matter what the terrorist believes, it's their actions against civilians that matter. If you blow up a hotel with journalists or tourists, you are a terrorist. If you wipe out Fellujah together with its civilian inhabitants including women and children using chemical weapons, you are no different. You can call it Jihad or War Against Terrorism, but the result is same. Who you are is determined by your actions, not your words. If you leave mothers crying for their babies behind you, you are a terrorist and it doesn't matter which camp you are at.

Point is, there's no such thing as good terorist or bad terrorist; your terrorist or our terrorist. Terrorism is bad and should be wiped out alltogether without naming them and putting into categories. No one seems to learn the most valuable lesson: you can't eliminate terror by the use of force, you help spread it that way.

I already made a map of the area that is in question, I also have a larger variant if the one I posted is not big enough, but I think the one I made now is pretty much as big as is possible and still being small enough for most people to run it.

whats up with red guard for china? those dont really exist today, and they are not infantry, or anything like that, most of them are university students

I always thought China has the biggest army in the planet (like over 3 million soldiers?)

Actually, its true that the Chinese army is the biggest in the world indeed.

BTW Stormbringer, send the map to me (mailto://mordechaigabai@chello.nl) ...

Sounds like a great scenario! I wish people would keep the politics out of the thread.

Some advice: I remember there was a first gulf war scenario for civ 2. The map covered basically the mideast. And there was a "Coalition" civ that included Greece, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, and a few others. The problem was that it was wayyyy too easy, you just walked over Iraq and there was nothing left to do.
So here are some suggestions. Limit the US territory to critical allies where the US had troops on the ground. Give the US Kuwait to invade Iraq with, and maybe Uzbekistan to invade Afghanistan with (if the map goes all the way to Asia, they'd get South Korea too). The USA should have a massive high tech army in these areas, along with an unstoppable air force and navy, but their starting cities should have very limited production. They should NOT have nukes, to reflect the fact that the US would never use nukes in the war on terror. They should also not be able to build any more modern units, only militia type units in cities that the US takes over, modeled after the Iraqi security forces. They could periodically get new, advanced units lifted in as random events.
Furthermore, once a city is taken, it should be verry difficult to expand the cultural borders of the city. Maybe you could also mod the game to make the "resistance" phase of capturing a city take much longer than usual. If it took longer expand cultural borders into the countryside, then more barbarians (functioning as terrorists in this mod) would appear with regularity in the uncontrolled land. The units they get should be effective terrorist type units.

Anyway, that's just my 2 cents on the mod. Good luck.

This does lead to another problem. Terrorists don't have a state. That's as true of Timothy McVeigh as it is of Osama Bin Laden. They are both considered enemies in their own nation. And they are both enemies of the entire world. There is no peace treaty with them, nor is there a formal declaration of war. They're more like an international criminal. Would you declare war on New York if you wanted to bring down Tony Soprano?

For the sake of a modern combat mod, I figure it makes sense to focus on the world powers and stay away from terrorism. State-versus-state, rather than all nations versus a select few individuals.

Leave Osama and the IRA out of it, and just focus on states like North Korea, Iraq, Iran, Britain, America, Israel, China, Russia, and so on. That's what the Civilization series was meant to tackle.

Edit: Argh. Aren't there safechecks to prevent double posts? :)

red guard are just student revolutionaries who burnt books and beat the petty buourgeoisie. I hardly would classify them as elite troops. Mao just gave them a elitist name.

PLA is the name of the Chinese Army. People's Liberation Army.

I have never heard of the Sjiite sect in Islam, I have however heard of the Shi'ite Sect, or the Shiah sect (I think this spelling is more common).?

Isn't the name of Yitzak Rabin just Yitzak Rabin. Doesn't the Al as prefix mean from Rabin, and is Arabic. Yitzak Rabin is a Jew.

Maybe, we should only focus on the Middle East so as to cut the slack
The entire modern world is a very large scope

So the players would be
US
Britain
Iraq
Iran
Saudi Arabia
Israel
Egypt
Turkey
Russia

I don't see China to play any part in this scenario though.

Map extends from Asia Minor to Afghanistan (W-E) and from Chechnya to tip of the arabian peninsula.+Egypt

Everyone is fighting just for one resource Oil, which is used to make all the fighting vehicles (Tanks, Planes, Ships)

And in the year 2016, a barbarian city pops out and announces that in 4 years time, they will launch a nuke at every city on the globe. (scripted). And the only way it can be taken out (no nukes for players) because it will be so well defended is if all the countries unite.

I think this is an excellent Idea. I was thinking of making the same kinda scenario, but I got put off. With the editing part.

Anyway what I would like to say is you must include Pakistan as a playable civilization.

Say, part of Baluchistan revolts near the Afghan broader an ally themselves with Osama, the US gets worried so they send troops to India to secure Pakistan's nuclear installations. This is just an Idea.

But if you want some Ideas with respect to the mod maybe I can help you.

I think it should be scripted out first before you actually try an make it.

But this can work, if say, Some Muslim nations sponsor freedom fighters/terrorists, or what ever you want to call them, i.e by having barbarian's and the sponsoring nations giving them arms like troops. By donating to them, by sending troops into their boarders and handing them over to them.

I think it would be more logical if the terrorists/freedoms, take over unstable places like parts of Iraq, Chechnya, Usbk, Kashmir etc.

What can make it better say once a part of the nation is taken over by the terrorists/freedom fighters. say for the main nation there production slows down, and the freedom fighters/errorists get to capture their tanks and stuff like that.


P.S, with Pakistan it will be good Idea to have, SSG elite Commandos (http://www.pakistanidefence.com/images/Army_Pics/SGG_Images.htm) and Al-Khaild Tanks (http://www.pakistanidefence.com/PakArmy/AlKhaildMBT2000.html) as unique units.

http://www.pakistanidefence.com/

red guard are just student revolutionaries who burnt books and beat the petty buourgeoisie. I hardly would classify them as elite troops. Mao just gave them a elitist name.

PLA is the name of the Chinese Army. People's Liberation Army.

I have never heard of the Sjiite sect in Islam, I have however heard of the Shi'ite Sect, or the Shiah sect (I think this spelling is more common).?

Isn't the name of Yitzak Rabin just Yitzak Rabin. Doesn't the Al as prefix mean from Rabin, and is Arabic. Yitzak Rabin is a Jew.

Maybe, we should only focus on the Middle East so as to cut the slack
The entire modern world is a very large scope

So the players would be
US
Britain
Iraq
Iran
Saudi Arabia
Israel
Egypt
Turkey
Russia

I don't see China to play any part in this scenario though.

Map extends from Asia Minor to Afghanistan (W-E) and from Chechnya to tip of the arabian peninsula.+Egypt

Everyone is fighting just for one resource Oil, which is used to make all the fighting vehicles (Tanks, Planes, Ships)

And in the year 2016, a barbarian city pops out and announces that in 4 years time, they will launch a nuke at every city on the globe. (scripted). And the only way it can be taken out (no nukes for players) because it will be so well defended is if all the countries unite.

I had in mind that China will send troops to Kirgizstan (Where a terrorist revolt start that would threathen China) very late in scenario. That would make sense, North Korea could start as China's ally and finally use nukes and a formidable army that against China to create a challenge.

Chechnya, Pakistan and Libya will also be in! (As playable nation).

Its time for a kick up, bump....

So whats the update on this? Its been like 6 - 7 months now.

What would the map look like, what regions would be included in the map?

Only read the 1st page. Most middle eastern govts arent socialist or fascist or theocratic or capitalist. They are kleptocracies where the ruling elite steal everything through force and corruption while using whatever hatred or ideology is most convenient in order to keep the masses distracted. How will the US enter Iraq?, by simply implementing the "complete CIA incompetence" civic of course, or they could build the "Oil for Food Scandal" Wonder of the World(the graphic would be Kofi Annan driving a Mercedes). Also, if you are going with Yeltsin and the 1st George Bush, then the corresponding British Leader is Margaret Thatcher.

How about France and Germany?? They would represent the Europeans who oppose the war and the US must work hard (Using diplomacy) to convince them, just like it happened in real life.

Kleptocracy isn't something that's modelled very well in Civilization. After all, in this game, it rewards the best Civilization -- not the richest or most prosperous leader. I'd actually like to see more niche victories that reward this kind of historical behavior.

Kleptocracy isn't something that's modelled very well in Civilization. After all, in this game, it rewards the best Civilization -- not the richest or most prosperous leader. I'd actually like to see more niche victories that reward this kind of historical behavior.

I don't dispute what you say above. I didn't mean to be snarky, i hope my post didn't sound that way. When I ask for a sarcasm font, i'm only 1/2 joking. Civ games model great power politics, all empires being of course great powers. Making the Civ game do something else is difficult, as im finding out in the Star Wars scenario im working on. I don't know of any great powers that are kleptocracies, the best way to simulate it is to impose relatively high upkeep costs to model corruption.

I know you were being funny -- but in actuality, a lot of Civilizations aspired to be kleptocracies. Civilization is still largely a game about empire -- culture and space race aside.

I actually think a kleptocratic victory would be an interesting idea. Sincerely -- steal enough to make your family's influence felt until the end of time. Probably not the most realistic victory, but then neither is reaching alpha centauri or being elected secretary general.

For every realistic behavior that ever happened in history, there ought to be a motive in Civilization. That's been one of my inspirations when I think of new ideas for the game.

Have you done it?