EDIT April: Posted version 1.61, which updates all files to be compatible with the 1.61 patch and fixes a few minor civilopedia issues.

This is a mod to make religion a bit more realistic in the game. No more Hindus eating Cows, Jews and Muslims eating Pigs, Jewish missionaries, etc.:crazyeye:

Obviously fiddling with religion invites controversy, but I attempt to make each faith distinct without making any one of them "better" or "worse" than any other. I've tried to stay away from "this is a militant religion" or "this is a peaceful religion" as stereotypes; the closest thing to this is that I portray Taoism as anti-state, which helps warmongers some of the time and hurts them other times. As I continue to play the mod, I'll tinker with play balance, so if you find one religion always becomes dominant then post here.

Here is a summary of changes in this mod:

1. Confucianism is replaced by Zoroastrianism. Confucianism is much more of a philosophy of ethics than a theology per se, so I've replaced it with the immensely influential Zoroastrianism. This is the faith that pioneered a dualistic monotheism, and it influenced nearly every other major world religion. Wikipedia has a pretty good summary of the faith, which was once the state religion of the sprawling Persian Empire, but is now limited to a few hundred thousand to a few million adherents. Zoroastrian Cathedrals are Fire Temples and their Shrine is Adur Burzen-Mihr, their holiest fire.

2. Renamed Missionary units. What would we call someone who went into an area where a faith was not established and started teaching others? In some faiths, there are words for those who are spreading the faith to those who don't know it. Other religions have special words for teachers of the faith.

Christianity = Missionary
Islam = Da'eiah
Hinduism = Swami
Taoism = Sage
Zoroastrianism = Magi
Buddhism = Acariya
Judaism = Rabbi

3. Added advantages and disadvantages to each religion. These generally involve spread speed, missionary units, and adding effects to Temples to change how resources affect a civ.

Judaism
Disadvantages: No benefit from Pigs, Crabs, and Clams: Jewish Temples produce -1 health for each of these resources (since access to these things produces +1 health, this means the Temple merely "cancels out" the food benefits of the resources; it does not punish the player for having them and hence there is no need to pillage them if you start building Jewish Temples). Monasteries cannot build Jewish Missionaries (it hasn't been a missionary faith for millenia).
Advantages: (unleavened) Wheat, (kosher) Cows, and (gefilte) Fish produce an extra health in cities with Jewish Temples. Free missionary when founded (the only one you'll get!), and thereafter Judaism's spread rate = 125 instead of 100, which is a substantial bump to try to keep the religion viable in the late game. Post if it seems to spread out of control (or if it seems to not spread quickly enough, given the lack of missionaries); I'm actively tweaking this value.

Islam
Disadvantage: No benefit from Pigs and Wine: Pigs produce -1 health and Wine produces -1 happiness in cities with Islamic Temples. I also removed the free missionary unit (Imam) because of the advantageous spread rate I gave Islam. Finally, Islam's ban on usury leads to a small amount of economic inefficiency: -15% trade route income in cities with Islamic Temples.
Advantage: Extra health from (halal) Cows and Sheep in cities with Islamic Temples. Increased spread rate (Islam spread incredibly quickly after its founding): Right now I have it set to 133, which is a major boost from the default of 100. Holy City produces extra three commerce (to simulate the hajj).

Hinduism
Disadvantage: Cows produce -1 food in cities with Hindu Temples.
Advantage: Cows produce +1 happiness in cities with Hindu Temples.

Zoroastrianism
I can think of many ideas for advantages, but few for disadvantages. Offerings of fragrant woods like sandalwood or incense are sometimes made in the Fire Temples, so perhaps incense could generate extra happiness. There are no specific dietary rules for this faith.
Disadvantage: Keeping an eternal flame lit is expensive in the ancient world. Zoroastrian Temples and Fire Temples cost 20% more than other faiths' Temples.
Advantage: To represent its influence on culture and faith, Zoroastrianism adds culture to a city even when it is not the state religion. Fire Temples increase cultural output by 60% instead of 50%.

Taoism
Taoism is in many ways an anti-state belief system, focused on the individual. Of course, it could be promoted by the state like any other faith, but it often coexisted uneasily with beliefs about proper social roles (such as Confucian philosophy). Moreover, Taoist beliefs were often kept secret by families and small shrines might be hidden from the authorities.
Disadvantage: Because the faith is anti-state, it becomes harder to mobilize people for state efforts. Each Taoist Temple increases your hurry costs in all cities (sorry, can't limit it to one city) by 2%. So a civ that emphasizes Taoism and builds 15 temples can expect to pay 30% more to rush build. In addition, Taoist Cathedrals do not generate extra happy faces if Taoism is the state religion.
Sometimes an advantage and sometimes a disadvantage: Taoist Temples (but not other buildings) ALWAYS survive capture of a city, unlike any other religion's Temples. This is good if you think you can retake a city, but bad otherwise.
Advantage:Taoist Cathedrals generate one happy face, regardless of the state religion.

Christianity
The most striking feature of Christianity is its missionary nature.
Disadvantage: -75% spread rate (I think: I set it to 25 instead of 100, which I think reduces the chance by a factor of 4 = 25% of originial chance)
Advantage: Christian Temples allow Missionary building, Missionaries are 50% cheaper, and a player may have up to 10 Missionaries at once instead of 3.

Buddhism
Disadvantage: Buddhism spreads slowly, except for periods when Missionaries (Acariya) are built (Example = Rule of Ashoka's Mauryan Empire in India): Slower spread rate (70 instead of 100, which seems to be around 30% less spread).
Advantage: The image of the "laughing Buddha" is designed to remind believers of the path to happiness. Buddhist Temples produce + 1 happy face for Stone and Marble (think of the giant carved Buddhas in Afghanistan that were destroyed by the Taliban).

4. I changed two non-religious buildings that affect religions differently under my mod.
Grocer
The Grocer no longer gives 1 extra health for wine (until I find a way to shut down the bonus only if your state religion is Islam). Instead, the grocer gives 1 extra health whether you have wine or not (its other effects are unchanged).

Harbor
The Harbor no longer provides one extra health for Fish, Clam, and Crab. Instead, it provides one extra health PLUS one more if you have Fish.

5. NEW IN VERSION 1.6 The technology tree has been slightly altered. While it looks like there are many changes, most of them are simply the result of switching Monotheism and Meditation around to give a more realistic chronology to the emergence of religion. Basically, Hinduism, Judaism, and Zoroastrianism should emerge early in the game, followed by Buddhism and Taoism a bit later, and then finally Christianity and Islam. This better reflects history than Buddhism being the first religion founded every game. I also tried to prevent "knowledge" of another faith's founding tech from being necessary to found a religion that didn't actually interact with or follow from the earlier faith -- there's no reason a civ should have to "discover Hinduism" first in order to found Judaism. Here is the detailed list of changes:
I. To make it more likely for Hinduism to emerge first, Polytheism's cost has been lowered to 80 instead of 100.
II. Monotheism and Meditation swapped places on the tech tree, which means:
A. Monotheism: Now leads to Priesthood and Meditation. Does not start a religion or enable any civics.
B. Meditation: Now leads to Philosophy and Monarchy. Founds Zoroastrianism.
III. Some of the functions of Monotheism were shifted to Priesthood -- it now founds Judaism and leads to Monarchy, Code of Laws, and Theology. It also enables the Organized Religion civic.
IV. Buddhism is now founded with Literature.
V. Code of Laws no longer founds a religion.

6. NEW IN VERSION 1.6 The faiths which receive free missionary units when founded are now limited to Judaism (to offset the fact it can't build more of them), and the two latest religions (Christianity and Islam).

This mod does not modify your existing files in any way. Just unzip to your mods folder (the default is C:\Program Files\Firaxis Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 4\Mods). Everything is in a folder called abbamouse; if you get tired of the mod just delete the abbamouse folder. To update a previous version of the mod, just overwrite the old files with the new ones.

CHANGES IN VERSION 1.61

All files now compatible with 1.61 patch.
I fixed a few civilopedia errors noted by Houman.
I fixed a bug that allowed three Jewish missionaries to be built.


CHANGES IN VERSION 1.6
Changes to a few early technologies in order to make the prerequisites and chronology of religions a bit more realistic. For details, see # 5 and # 6 above.

CHANGES IN VERSION 1.53
Fixed a graphic bug in the font files. City religion graphics should display fine now.

CHANGES IN VERSION 1.52
I laboriously went through each file changed by the version 1.52 patch and re-altered them for my mod. This ended up being nearly every file in the mod, so I basically had to retype the whole thing. This creates opportunities for typos, so be sure to post any you spot.

CHANGES IN VERSION 1.11

I fixed the graphic bug that was causing leaders' names and scores to be displayed incorrectly when Zoroastrianism was their state religion.
Islamic missionary is now called Da'eiah (plural = Do'ah), thanks to suggestions by Fachy and Elmoro.
Sid's tips now correctly describe Jewish Monasteries. All Monastery descriptions now use the correct term for a religion's missionary units.
Change to Judaism: Judaism now starts with a free Rabbi (missionary), but no further ones can be built. The spread rate of Judaism has been lowered slightly but still kept higher than that of other faiths (125 instead of 100, a substantial boost).


CHANGES IN VERSION 1.10
Changes:

Used updated files from 1.09 patch
Added Spanish, French, Italian, German text, although my translations are probably laughable. The "new" names for missionaries have not been translated.
Mod now contains altered Sid's tips, replacing Confucian references with Zoroastrian ones and mentioning that Rabbis cannot be constructed.


Known issues:

I lack a unique graphic for the Zoroastrian Temple or Monastery, so I reuse the graphics from the Zoroastrian Fire Temple and Adur Burzen-Mihr.
It would also be nice to have a proper Zoroastrian Missionary skin, although the Confucian one is adequate since Zoroastrianism did indeed briefly spread to parts of China.
All religions' missionary units are still called "missionary" or its equivalent in non-English languages
The description of Zoroastrianism in the Civilopedia is English-only; non-English versions will still see the old description of Confucianism.


Under consideration:

Houman's realism mod has religious UUs, and I'm looking at implementing some of them. I'm not terribly comfortable with Jewish spies as special units, since Mossad is a feature of the state of Israel and not Judaism or Jews per se, but I like most of the ideas i that mod and I plan to copy some of them.
I want to find a way to base the effects of religions on the number of adherents in your cities instead of tying most effects to Temples. Maybe the SDK will make it possible to define a new variable like the % of a city with each religion and then use that variable in the Python or xml files to change health, happiness, etc. That would be more realistic, after all.

This is really excellent. While you will no doubt get people who agree/disagree with specific points, I think you're made an excellent first cut (and hey, maybe final cut) at adding character to the religions.

I was wondering if you were considering some broad changes for things like State Religion? I really think civs with State Religion should have some considerably research penalty. I also think that relations between SR civs should be heightened for better and worse.

Great job.

It may be a bit respectless and maybe even dangerous. Likely because people will choose religions for bonusus and leave others behind. On the other hand, the efforts are good and you could do something more. What 'bout adding Shintoism, Asatru and Babbism? What about seperating Christendom? (Catholicism and Protestantism)

My issue is that hardwiring the religions based on the beliefs of a minority will end up reducing realism rather than adding it.

Even if you ignore the fact that there are huge differences within a religion, and people come to practice many different versions of a religion based on circumstance, there's still a key problem with "dietary restrictions". Discovering a religion doesn't reverse the benefits of various goods, let alone their perceived benefits. It's more likely to institutionalize the benefits and drawbacks of said goods as a religious belief. Moreover, you're going to encourage people to dodge certain religions based on their starting location -- which is a very gamey, unrealistic behavior.

Nonetheless, 'religious difference' is something that many players want, no matter what it is. So at least you're filling a niche, with all the innacuracies.

I like the idea :)
Although I guess I think this game doesn't really take into account how most people are secular :)

FANTASTIC!!! I personally salute you! I understand Firaxis's restraint towards "personalizing" religions, but it has somehow just removed most of the "fun" in chosing a specific religion as your state religion...
A further step (and probably a too controversial one) would be to explore the impact of religious wars.... (for instance a civilication with teocratic rule would be extreamly agressive towards you if "you have fallen under a pagan religion")

I personally like it. Thank you for making this mod. (Now I just have to add it to my other ones.....)

Judaism
Disadvantages: No benefit from Pigs, Crabs, and Clams: Jewish Temples produce 1 unhappy face for each of these resources.Which presumably just counteracts the benefit from those as trade goods, right? They still aren't of negative value.
Cannot build Jewish Missionaries (it's just not a missionary faith).Not now, no. For at least 1700 of the past 2000 years, Jews would have gotten themselves lynched if they tried to convert your typical local, so it's only to be expected. But in the heydays of the Davidic and Maccabean Kingdoms? Those were outright theocracies. They banned all other religions. Preventing them from imposing their religion on their own cities (which Civ4 only allows you to directly do via missionaries) just seems wrong.
Advantages: (unleavened) Wheat, (kosher) Cows, and (gefilte) Fish produce an extra health in cities with Jewish Temples.Creative, certainly, but (no offense) it seems you were at a loss for ideas here. See my suggestions below.
Much faster rate of spread (There may not be missionaries, but there is a diaspora, and this helps simulate that.)There wasn't a diaspora until 1,935 years ago, when the Romans destroyed the Temple in Jerusalem. Which brings me to my next point: before then, the Temple was a major part of the religion. Sacrifices were brought there and only there; all Jewish men were required to make a pilgrimage to bring offerings there three times a year, on the three festivals (Passover, Shavuot, and Sukkot). Prior to the erection of Solomon's Temple, sacrifices were permitted to be brought anywhere, but after then they were restricted to the Temple.

As such, the Temple should create a much greater commerce boost than other shrines (except the Muslim one, since Muslims also have a pilgrimage). Two or even three gold per city might be good. But, on the other hand, if your state religion isn't Judaism, it should cause extra unhappiness in the city―Josephus Flavius records that the thrice-annual pilgrimages caused great unrest against the Romans in Jerusalem, as hundreds of thousands of religious men flocked together. I'm thinking maybe one unhappy face for every three or four Jewish cities would be good, half that if you have no state religion.

A note on terminology: prior to the construction of Solomon's Temple, Jewish Temples could represent small altars, and be called Jewish Altars; cathedrals could be Jewish Temples, or possibly someone else can think of something less confusing. The presence of any such structure should significantly increase the value of cows and sheep, since those were offered regularly in thanksgiving, atonement, etc. (so were goats and doves, off the top of my head, but of course neither is present in the game). Wine and incense were also used for various rituals, so they should give benefits as well.

Once Solomon's Temple is constructed, Jewish Altars should be automatically replaced with Jewish Synagogues, and Temples (or whatever) with perhaps Jewish Study Halls. The benefits could remain the same as long as Solomon's Temple exists, for balance reasons. If Solomon's Temple is destroyed, then the benefits from the cows, sheep, and incense (but not wine) should stop, but the Synagogues and Study Halls should produce extra happiness themselves (since as long as you had the main Temple, it wouldn't be as important to have a local place of worship as well).
No benefit from Pigs and Wine: Pigs produce -1 health and Wine produces -1 happiness in cities with Islamic Temples.If possible, these shouldn't be allowed to be traded at all by cities with an Islamic Temple or by a state with Organized Religion/Theocracy and Islam as its religion. Muslims aren't permitted to have anything to do with either of these.
Islam's ban on usury leads to a small amount of economic inefficiency: -15% trade route income in cities with Islamic Temples.I would suggest that banks be the things to take the hit instead. Banks should increase wealth by only perhaps +25% in cities with Islamic Temples and all cities under Islamic Theocracies. It should be noted that both traditional Judaism and traditional Christianity ban usury as well, but only when dealing with other members of the faith; this led, in Catholic Europe, to widespread Jewish bank ownership, since Catholics couldn't run banks profitably. This should reduce the efficiency of banks in cities with Jewish or Christian Temples or Jewish or Christian Theocracies to +40% or +45%.

Philosophically, I would like to note that I think a much better religion mod would completely ignore the actual traits of real-life religions and instead have partially random mixing and matching. This is in the same vein as a Christian China constructing Solomon's Temple in the Jewish holy city of Timbuktu. I think that kind of thing is part of what makes Civ fun.

An example religious trait would pertain to degree of centralization. Highly centralized religions would confer more benefits on the holder of the religion's holy city, but at the cost of making the religion harder to spread as you move away from the holy city. Like all religious traits, this would be subject to change over time; in this case, one major factor that would contribute to reduced religious centralization would be spreading the religion too much when means of travel were inadequate. The ancient Jewish religion was extremely centralized, for instance, but it could only maintain this centralization due to the tiny size of Israel.

I would like to see some sort of "inquisition" unit which could be used ot purge a city of a non-state religion in the same way missionaries can spread it. At the cost of civilian unhappiness for a time though.

I would like to see some sort of "inquisition" unit which could be used ot purge a city of a non-state religion in the same way missionaries can spread it. At the cost of civilian unhappiness for a time though.

Heh, I didn't see this comment, but I'm completely in agreement with you. I have even opened a thread about it: Inquisition Mod (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=141668)

Judaism
Advantages: (unleavened) Wheat, (kosher) Cows, and (gefilte) Fish produce an extra health in cities with Jewish Temples. Much faster rate of spread (There may not be missionaries, but there is a diaspora, and this helps simulate that.) Spread rate = 50 instead of 100, which is really quite a bump. I think it means the chance of spread is doubled. Actually it seems to spread out of control in my playtests so I 'd like to figure out the formula for spread chance.

In the other religions with modified spread rate, you state that lower is slower and higher is faster. :hmm:

Judaism
Much faster rate of spread (There may not be missionaries, but there is a diaspora, and this helps simulate that.) Spread rate = 50 instead of 100, which is really quite a bump. I think it means the chance of spread is doubled. Actually it seems to spread out of control in my playtests so I 'd like to figure out the formula for spread chance.

Islam
Increased spread rate (Islam spread incredibly quickly after its founding): Right now I have it set to 133, which is a major boost from the default of 100.

Christianity
-75% spread rate (I think: I set it to 25 instead of 100, which I think reduces the chance by a factor of 4 = 25% of originial chance)

Buddhism
Slower spread rate (70 instead of 100, which seems to be around 30% less spread).


The Jewish spread rate increases when you drop the number, but the rest behave in the opposite manner?

That's anti-Semitism!!! :joke:

Usury is forbidden true, but Islam is the merchant's religion. :) There's their original concept of profit sharing which gives the same profit as interest rates does. Just check any Saudi Bank or Saudi financed investment companies in Wall Street. The Prophet of Islam was a merchant himself and Qur'an is full of business law and regulations in astonishing details. I know you were thinking to balance the mod somehow and I don't mind it personally, but i was trying to give some insight on your initial comment on Islamic economy. Again: Islam is the religion of the merchants for the merchants and profit making is essential as long as it's fair and as regulated by Sharia (Qur'anic Law). Islamic economy in the ideal is hard to implement in liberal capitalism and communism, but it's somewhat close to socialism a la Scandinavia.

It may be a bit respectless and maybe even dangerous. Likely because people will choose religions for bonusus and leave others behind. On the other hand, the efforts are good and you could do something more. What 'bout adding Shintoism, Asatru and Babbism? What about seperating Christendom? (Catholicism and Protestantism)

Hey

I would also be really appreciative if a mod was done up to include Asatru.

What 'bout adding Shintoism, Asatru and Babbism?

What is Babbism anyway?

Actually, its a unified monotheistic religion. Practicers of Babbism recognize the founders of all monotheistic religions (Such as Mohammed and Abraham) and Hinduism, also they believe in 1 god and in reincarnation (In what you will reincarnate depends on how you lived, just like in Hinduism). Its popular America and loads of European nations and its one of the most youngest religions (Founded in the 1950's I believe, not really sure about that).

I responded to some of the criticisms by editing the Judaism section in my original post. I misstated the spread rate and food effects in the original description.

Here's something to ponder: What if Judaism gained a number of free missionaries (Rabbis) when it was founded, but then had a slow spread and no chance to build more missionaries? Would this be a bit more realistic, or would this be less realistic? Also, would it mess up play balance? The player that founded Judaism could establish a sizable religious following almost instantly, but later in the game it would fall behind other faiths.

As for the Temple of Solomon providing a pilgrimage bonus, that's something to consider. Does Judaism need an additional bonus right now?

Strictly speaking, Acharya and Swami mean the same thing--buddhism being an indian religion, it co-opted all of the hindu religious language for itself. Maybe to distinguish it from hinduism more, you might want to call the buddhist missionaries Lamas or something?

as for zoroastrian disadvantages, they weren't allowed to marry outside their faith, so maybe their spread rate/growth rate is slower?

Here's something to ponder: What if Judaism gained a number of free missionaries (Rabbis) when it was founded, but then had a slow spread and no chance to build more missionaries? Would this be a bit more realistic, or would this be less realistic? Also, would it mess up play balance? The player that founded Judaism could establish a sizable religious following almost instantly, but later in the game it would fall behind other faiths.

I think this would reflect the development far better. It could be spread at once in the own state but has a harder sell later.

To Zoroastrianism - I think it should com earlier than code of law - in this mod Zoro is a later game religion, and i thougt it was the eariest monotheistic religion ? But now it comes after judaism and christanity ... ( at least in most cases )

I agree Judaism missionaries should be renamed Rabbis, be much more expensive to train, and function sorta like Great Artists, only giving tiny culture bonus, maybe like 100. That'd be realistic. But I like abbamouse's idea a lot too.

At no time did Jews have missionaries in the sense that the Christians do. It spread verrrrrry slowly. I'd lower their spread to 100, and up Islam's spread to 150.

Nick
(Jew)

Also can we get Catholicism vs. Protestantism? Ssooo many wars were fought over that! It would really help my scenario.

In the game, I am really dissappointed how religion works. Religion is part of culture and the way how it spreads is just not realistic.

Imagine 2 civilizations both with two cities. Imagine that CIV 1 is highly developed and has a great cultural value, both cities are muslim. The other (neighbouring) civilization hasn't developed well, both cities have buddhism as their religion. Normally when you higher the culture rate, Islam should spread to the two neigbouring cities. What i want to say is that when a city adopts a religion it doesn' t adopt another one automatically, you have to send a missionary. In my opinion it should spread automatically when CIV 2 suffers from the high culture rate of CIV 1.

When I play civ 4 I get frustrated when I see that my cities adopt all kinds of different religions. That' s bull****. When my religion is set, it shouldn' t be so that 90% of the new cities adopt a different religion. Because when they adopt that religion, then no way I can wipe that religion out of my city and I have to send a missionary to that city.

When I would install your mod, it would mean that when a city adopts a different religion than the state religion, i can never change that city to my state religion. Because you modded the game in that way that only christian monasteries allow building of missionaries.

There's their original concept of profit sharing which gives the same profit as interest rates does. Just check any Saudi Bank or Saudi financed investment companies in Wall Street.Dunno who first invented it, but yeah, Orthodox Jews have similar systems. More or less investing in a business rather than loaning money to it. So perhaps the cuts should be reduced somewhat.
Here's something to ponder: What if Judaism gained a number of free missionaries (Rabbis) when it was founded, but then had a slow spread and no chance to build more missionaries? Would this be a bit more realistic, or would this be less realistic?I don't think it would be particularly more realistic.
As for the Temple of Solomon providing a pilgrimage bonus, that's something to consider. Does Judaism need an additional bonus right now?No, but I would revamp its bonuses/penalties entirely, as explained in my previous post. Specifically, I would remove the resource bonuses you now have for Judaism and replace them with bonuses for cows, sheep, incense, and wine. The Temple of Solomon as I described it would be somewhat better than other shrines if your state religion is Judaism, but it would cause trouble if your religion is different, which would present the player with an interesting choice. Again, this all would be subject to tweaking, but the pilgrimage was a major part of the ancient Jewish religion.
as for zoroastrian disadvantages, they weren't allowed to marry outside their faith, so maybe their spread rate/growth rate is slower?Jews, Christians, and Muslims weren't traditionally allowed to marry out of their faith either, incidentally.
I agree Judaism missionaries should be renamed RabbisRabbi is an anachronistic term for any period before around 2000 years ago. Prior to that, care of the religion was largely in the hands of the priests (kohanim, singular kohen), or at least by tradition—the Pharisees weren't too happy with that, and tried to take over the religion. (They eventually succeeded, since the entire Sadducee faction collapsed after the destruction of the Temple; it was mostly a priestly faction, focusing around centralization in the Temple, with the same corruption that the Catholic Church later faced: money for salvation. When that was no longer an option, the Pharisee ideal of less focus on sacrifices and rituals and more on genuine repentance and devotion—embodied in the quote from Hosea, "and we will sacrifice bulls with our lips"—largely won out. But that's somewhat off-topic.)
At no time did Jews have missionaries in the sense that the Christians do.You're absolutely right that they didn't have missionaries the way Christians do, but almost no religion did or does. Still, Abraham sure converted a lot of people, according to the Bible, and the Jewish kingdoms did make life more difficult for gentiles than Jews (spurring conversions for convenience's sake, much as Muslim states have historically done). The point is, all religions should be able to spread themselves without much trouble to their own cities at the very least.
I'd lower their spread to 100, and up Islam's spread to 150.It should be noted that Islam spread in large part through war. The game equivalent would be conquering a city, then converting it, not the city converting after a while by itself.

Simetrical
(Orthodox Jew)

Islam is present in the US, China, India, Europe and largely-Islamic nations span from Indonesia to Morocco. So by late-game I'd expect it spread in most countries.

Islam is present in the US, China, India, Europe and largely-Islamic nations span from Indonesia to Morocco. So by late-game I'd expect it spread in most countries.

<The problem heere is we have 2 different kinds of "spread" - one is conversion, the other is immigration ( since moslems in europe are mainly immigrants, converted europeans are rare ) . Can be tricky to simulate this but a model thattake this into account is may be more realistic thaen the current spread in Civ4 ...

I think you have taken a very difficult issue here and done some amazing things with it. Hats off to you! Here is just some food for thought that I hope is helpful.

I'm not sure I like the fact that Confucianism is replaced by Zoroastrianism. I see your point, but I love having Confucianism in the game because I personally see it as simulating secularism (imagination and all). Moreover, many many people practice a cullmination of taoism and confucianism in their daily lives, thus making confucianism a valid form of worship. All I'm saying is that if you want to add faiths, I'm all for that, but don't take away what is already there.

Lastly, you have a number of checks and balances for all the faiths except hinduism, which is only affected by the cow resource. Hinduism is a very resilient faith as many outside religions attempting to convert hindus have failed time and time again. I would suggest adding a modifier that would make the spread of faiths into cities already practicing hinduism much less likely. Missionaries trying to spread faith 'x' to hindu cities should also face a negative modifier. To counter the resiliency of the faith, maybe hinduism could spread at a slower rate? Just a thought. What do you think?


Tad

Hey, I do enjoy this mod,(although I'm having extreme difficulties in combining it with another mod(superciv.)

However, i did change a few things in your file due to something I heard about Zorastarism coming in later than it should. I changed its position to come at priesthood, and not only made meditation a much more worthwhile technology, but also made Zorasterism an earlier religion.

I am, however, awaiting some more changes to this mod before I start using it primarily.

do you install this into the C:\Program Files\Firaxis Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 4\Mods folder ?

agree completely with the hinduism being resistant to missionaries. they just keep trying, and hindus just keep on doing what they did before.

On the other hand, while Hinduism is one of the most practiced religions in the world, it's spread beyond India is somewhat less than other religions.(As opposed to say Budhism, which has spread to other areas but doesn't have any one mass of concentration that increases it's total to such high amounts as India.(Or so I believe.)

Perhaps Hinduism should work well with Missionaries but not spread naturally on its own nearly as fast?

@abbamouse,

Just a couple of comments. First it's an historical error to tag Judaism as a "non-missionary" religion. Judaism was once an aggressive seeker of converts. Around the time of Christ, around 30% of the total population of the Empire is believed to have been practitioners of Judaism, many of them converts. In fact a lot of the bad feeling between Jews and Christians arose from the fact that they were competing for converts.

Jews eventually gave up their proselytizing role mainly because of the persecution it triggered from the increasingly powerful Christian community.

So I see no reason why Jews should not also have missionaries.

Secondly, it doesn't make much sense to have an increased spread rate of Judaism due to the "diaspora", when the diaspora was a particular historical event! The whole point of a game like Civ is that is enables you to rewrite history. There is no reason to suppose that the diaspora would have taken place in an alternative history, so an increased spread rate for Judaism seems rather arbitrary.

Finally, I'm not sure if it's fair to give Hindus -1 health for cows, because although Hindus don't *eat* cows, they certainly do use them for dairy products, which is arguably a more efficient use of cattle.

Just my two cents worth.

Islam and Christianity are present in nearly every region in the globe. Judaism is not. Judaism only has a significant presence mostly in USA, Canada, UK, Russia and of course Israel.

Judaism should have a very small spread rate, but an amazing resilance.

Don't forget there is a large Jewish population in Poland.

Catholism and Protestanism is far to broad. Besides the fact that Catholic/Orthodox devisions are deeper and older and probably easier to do since there are fewer inter Orthodox issues. Protestantism is essentially just noncatholic nonorthodox christians. Calvinists, Anabaptists(Hated by most forms of christianity around the time of great Schism), Lutherans and the Church of England being the most prevailent. Lutherans and Catholics were more likely to get along with one another than Calvinists and Lutherans. The Church of England was some what of a divine millieux between Catholism and more radical Protestants like the Puritans. It would be to hard to do a protestant catholic devition of christianity. If you did that You would have to do Catholism, Calvinism, Luthernism, The Church of England (Anglocan), and Anabaptism. A straight up Catholic/Orthodox differentiation would be easier, there is a certain level of religious homoginaiety as the Orthodox church spread from Greece to Ukraine and Poland then on to Russia. The Orthodox church was never part of the Catholic church it is its own brand of christianity founded in Greece (The first non hebrew bibles were Greek not roman). All christianity is derived from the Apostle Peter, hence why he is the first pope, but he didn't concider himself a Catholic, just a Christian. The Catholic Church as it is, is a Roman creation and the Orthodox a Greek creation, there is much more distiction between the two.

I only know more about Christian history since I am a chrstian, it may be just as viable to split up Islam or Hinduism. There are many differnt forms of Islam and i know there are sects of Hinduism dedicated souly to Vishnu (some perticularly to his avatar Krishna) and others to Shiva, and at one time to Brahma too. People are always too hung up on the Catholic Protestant split because it happened in western Europe.

A cool idea if you wanted to do a more modern religion would be to do Deism. Deism could be the result of Scientific Methode or Liberalism. Essentially what it entails is that God set the universe in motion and then just doesn't touch it. It was huge among the Philosophes of the Enlightenment and I am sure accounts for a large ammount of nonreligious simply spiritual belifes. Deism wouldn't be able to build anything like temples or cathedrals but they could build a version of monestaries as many philosophes were freverant anti church figures and willing to spread thier beliefs. As a result only deist monestaries could be the only ones built after Scientific Methode along with that it could give a bonus to science and commerce. You probably call the Deist equivalent of a missionary a Philosophe.

Or you could do state enfored aethism as a result of communism or facsim, it would be very similar to deism in that no church/cathedral could be built. It would cause a lasting sad face for every religion in a city before aethism is enforced but science and commerce and production bonuses would be available as a result. When it comes into effect all religious structures would be destroied and converted to gold. It would have to be spread souly by a type of anti-missionary figure that could only act within the state itself. It would give bonus happiness from wine and grains since alcoholism as a way to escape would rise. It would get bonus effectiveness under police state. Religions present would come back if state aethism colapses but religious structures would have to be rebuilt and holy city special structures would be concidered lost. State Aethism would be bad for happiness but good for production as it was intended. CIvs with organized religion, pacifism and Theocracy civics would hate state aethism more than normal.

If some of you aethists are offended by this take on it, as a counterpart Existentialism as a result of Industrialism or Radio or Mass Media. It would spread like any other religions as it is just a belief. No Churches, cathedral or monestaries for it at all. It would have to have a large spread rate and no missionaries, it itself would give happiness/science/commerce bonuses if the state religion, but it would give sad faces if there is another state relgion as most religions are intolerant of aethists. There would be no sad faces with free religion from it with. It would be the only belief not destroied by state aethism and would spread even faster throughout the state as a result.

A good feature would be to dissallow religions to simply spead over bodies of water without first having radio then the effect of it would be ampilfied by mass media.

Good to hear---I thought they basically all got holocausted :(

Good to hear---I thought they basically all got holocausted :(


That is one reason I can be really proud of my Polish Heritage, they were essentially the only European nation to never treat the jewish people like crap. As Christian I have emmense respect for Judism.

it is a bit odd that i found four out of six religions
good to see someone have made modification on religion issue

it is a bit odd that i found four out of six religions
good to see someone have made modification on religion issue


There are 7 religions in civ 4. YOu are right though, the computer always seems to give up on making any religions after Judism. I am always stuck founding Taoism, Islam and Christianity and more often than not Judism and Confucianism. It always muddles my plans up.

People are always too hung up on the Catholic Protestant split because it happened in western Europe.And because so many very bloody wars have been going on for centuries over this split. The Ireland thing is sorta still going on in fact. Catholics haven't been warring with Orthodox like that.

You've got the 100 years war (England vs. France) over the Catholic vs. Protestant thing.

Ireland. Centuries of war over the Catholic vs. Protestant thing.

You've got all the Spanish vs. England wars over the Catholic vs. Protestant thing, which is represented in my scenario, because this war spread to Florida big-time. And I need it to be represented in my scenario.

Nick

...You've got the 100 years war (England vs. France) over the Catholic vs. Protestant thing.


IIRC, before, during, and for quite a while afterwards, England was Catholic. It was only during Henry VIII's rule that it changed.

Unless you mean France, but I'm sure they were Catholic then, too...


Ireland. Centuries of war over the Catholic vs. Protestant thing.

I thaught the thing in Ireland is more about land, and that the Religion thing was just a factor??? (Of course, there, I'm probably getting mixed up ;) )

Oh, and when I get Civ 4, this mod is getting downloaded!!!

IIRC, before, during, and for quite a while afterwards, England was Catholic. It was only during Henry VIII's rule that it changed.

Unless you mean France, but I'm sure they were Catholic then, too...


I thaught the thing in Ireland is more about land, and that the Religion thing was just a factor??? (Of course, there, I'm probably getting mixed up ;) )

Oh, and when I get Civ 4, this mod is getting downloaded!!!


The catholic protestant thng also has to do with the fact that they sent scottish settlers to colonize Ireland. France was never anything but officially catholic, they had a large calvinist minority but the state religion was Catholism.

Islam and Christianity are present in nearly every region in the globe. Judaism is not. Judaism only has a significant presence mostly in USA, Canada, UK, Russia and of course Israel.

Judaism should have a very small spread rate, but an amazing resilance.Again, this is only because of historical accident. Judaism became an underdog close to 2000 years ago, and it hasn't been able to convert much of anybody.
That is one reason I can be really proud of my Polish Heritage, they were essentially the only European nation to never treat the jewish people like crap.Well, currently Jewish tours to Auschwitz and the like have to go under armed guard to protect the tourists from attacks by anti-Semitic Poles. My sister went on one such tour, and the rabbi of my synagogue used to organize them, so I'm pretty sure of that. The Netherlands, for instance, probably has a cleaner record than Poland regarding the Jews.

Sorry for going off-topic, I just couldn't let that stand. I won't say anything further on the topic.
Catholism and Protestanism is far to broad.All the religions are very broad. Taoism isn't even clearly definable. Judaism would include the Sadduccees, Pharisees, Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, and Reconstructionist at various periods, and the differences in their ideologies are much greater than between Catholicism and mainstream Protestantism (consider the Orthodox believing that all Jews have to strictly obey the Oral Law's hundreds of often seemingly arbitrary commandments, as opposed to the Reform who don't believe in observing almost any of them).
And because so many very bloody wars have been going on for centuries over this split.Many would argue that those simply used the split as an excuse, that it wasn't a reason. It's hard to say exactly; clearly the religious differences weren't the only reasons for the various wars, but whether they were a major contributing factor is up for debate. I would tend to believe that religious differences would generally be important in gaining popular support for the wars, but not so much in initiating them.

i also think that missionary class units should be able to cross culture borders even if an open borders pact does not exist. borders don't seem to stop missionaries in the real world, so why in civ? maybe some additional civics modifications would have to be made in order for that to work, but i think unrestricted movement for missionaries would be more realistic.

Actually I am a Muslim and the Imam (there was only one at a time) actually was sort of the ruler of Muslim empires not the guy who spreads it.

Well Imam means different things to different Muslims. Shia Islam tends to be much stricter about who counts as an Imam than Sunni Islam. Is there a better term that all Muslims would recognize as an ordinary, relatively low-ranking teacher of the faith?

Tad -- borders do stop missionaries. See Japan, China, etc. Rulers are quite reluctant to allow outsiders to proselytize, since they see that religious control may lead to political control. The reason we think missionaries don't respect borders is that Western countries threatened Eastern and other rivals into opening their borders to missionary activity; indeed, sometimes wars were fought over the exclusion of missionaries. Moreover, when religious refugees cross borders they are often prohibited from proselytizing (example: the Parsis were Iranian Zoroastrians fleeing Muslim dominance -- to this day, they don't accept converts because that was the agreement made in return for refuge in India).

Tunch Khan: Islamic societies do indeed find alternatives to interest, but they are less efficient. For example, profit-sharing only substitutes for interest when the bank and debtor have common beliefs about potential profitability. Where the bank is unsure of profitability, it will not lend based on profit-sharing. Similarly, many alternatives to interest rely on joint ownership of businesses; these expose the bank to more risk than merely sitting back and collecting interest does. The result is that banks are reluctant to extend credit to people or businesses that would take out loans at high interest rates in non-Muslim societies, e.g. risky borrowers. Finally, these alternative arrangements involve high transaction costs, which may swamp the potential profits from a small loan to an individual. So there are some limits to Islamic banking, since they can do most things non-Muslim banks can do EXCEPT for charging interest. Fewer economic options = higher chance of inefficiency in the market.

About the whole Jew spread issue...

Judaism shouldn't spread quickly, as Orthodox Judaism states that in order to be considered Jewish, your mother must have been Jewish. And Judaism does not have a missionary tradition.

Perhaps to simulate this, without crippling Judaism horribly, you should get 3 Rabbis on founding it. Rabbis should not be buildable, but cities with Synagogues, and the Temple of Solomon, should automatically produce a Rabbi every x turns. x should be about a fourth to half the number of turns it takes a large city with no wonders (but specialists) to create a great person.

PS: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Taoism and Hindu really have missonary traditions either. Perhaps this set-up could work with them, too, but 100% spread rate, and longer missionary creation time.

Well, it's just a thought.

The reason we think missionaries don't respect borders is that Western countries threatened Eastern and other rivals into opening their borders to missionary activity; indeed, sometimes wars were fought over the exclusion of missionaries.Exactly.

See the First and Second Opium Wars (France/England vs. China).

Well, currently Jewish tours to Auschwitz and the like have to go under armed guard to protect the tourists from attacks by anti-Semitic Poles.
Hmm, i've been to Aushwitz a few times and don't recall anything like that. I admit, there are some "anti-Semitic Poles", but you can find them everywhere. You really don't need armed guards though.
The Netherlands, for instance, probably has a cleaner record than Poland regarding the Jews.
Check this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Righteous_Among_the_Nations
Sorry for going off-topic, I just couldn't let that stand.

And about jewish missionaries. There were one nation (Khazar Empire) converted to judaism this way. Check this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazar

I also would like to express my support for the mod idea. Religions are different and they change a lot (for exaple the influence of buddism on Tibet and Mongolia - formely very aggresive countries).
But i think that confucianism should stay. And for the game-balance I think that missionaries should stay for every religion. You should add rather flavors (like slight commerce bonus or health bonuses) than greatly change the rules. I also like the changes to taoism.
Will give it a try.

Where, exactly, did you get the idea Taoists were "anti-State" ? I've been a practicing Taoist for a long time and i've never heard of such nonsense.

I dont want to sound like one of those "YOU OFFENDED MY RELIGION IN A GAME!", but the Taoism bonus in this mod doesnt make a whole lot of sense.

The problem is no bonus will ever make sense to everyone -- even the adherents of that same religion.

Even the constant statement "judaism is not a missionary religion" is simply untrue if you go back far enough in the religion's history.

Well, currently Jewish tours to Auschwitz and the like have to go under armed guard to protect the tourists from attacks by anti-Semitic Poles. My sister went on one such tour, and the rabbi of my synagogue used to organize them, so I'm pretty sure of that. The Netherlands, for instance, probably has a cleaner record than Poland regarding the Jews.

I find it sad and disturbing that you chose to include this shameless and stereotypical slander in this forum. I have been to Auschwitz myself and I have found that the local populations has a lot of respect for ALL the people that have been murdered in the death camp. No, no one needs "armed guards" and no one conducts "attacks" on the visitors, regardless of their religion. Im really discouradged that you had to include these lies on this forum. Especially since this it has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

I am glad that people are working on religion mods since it is good to see some differences between religions arise.

It is always a touchy issue these days and it is impossible to do perfectly becaue of all the various forms of each of the major religions which have arisen over many centuries but it is good to see some basic implematation.

It would be nice if we could do things like have the different major divisions of some the the religions but that would expand things too much.

Some observations:

Hinduism iin principle is not really supposed to expand beyond India and basically means something to the effect of 'the faiths of those who live in India.' In this way most Hindus regard Buddists as a division within Hinduism. But whoever institutes it sould have little trouble making and keeping all their cities Hindu. It sould also demand that you have a caste system.

Polytheism should be a prerequisite for whatever is to give you Buddism.

Is it possible to make monotheists a big problem when a minority under a different state religion? Historcally this is very consistant. It would be neat if a Jewish city in a non-Jewish Civ tended to try to break away to form their own Civ (Civ IV does not however seem to support break away states) and if Christain cities in a non-Christian Civs tended to be very unhappy to preassure you into becoming Christain. I would have Islamic minorities behave the same as Christain but I would also have it so that Jewish and Chriatain minorities do not mind so much being part of Islamic Civs because they are protected under Islamic law. Christain and Jewish states should be intorerant of others faiths in their boarders until after the Enlightenment, so cities of other faiths should be unhappy until that time.

One religion I would like to see added is something like the "high" paganism of the Roman Empire. I usually play as Hindu and pretend that it is the paganism of Julian the Apostate.

Tad -- borders do stop missionaries. See Japan, China, etc. Rulers are quite reluctant to allow outsiders to proselytize, since they see that religious control may lead to political control. The reason we think missionaries don't respect borders is that Western countries threatened Eastern and other rivals into opening their borders to missionary activity; indeed, sometimes wars were fought over the exclusion of missionaries. Moreover, when religious refugees cross borders they are often prohibited from proselytizing (example: the Parsis were Iranian Zoroastrians fleeing Muslim dominance -- to this day, they don't accept converts because that was the agreement made in return for refuge in India).

i hear what you are saying, but i know of many examples where missionaries from certain faiths have gone undercover and broken laws to proselytize. unwanted missionaries has always been a huge problem, and i thought it could be fun to try and role-play that in the game.

however, i've actually come to be against my idea, but not because of international law. rather, players could find themselves using missionaries as scouts to explore areas where no open borders treaty is in play, and i don't like that idea.


Tad

1. Anti-Semitism was widespread throughout Europe during the last 500 years. Search Google for "Polish anti-Semitism" or "Dutch anti-Semitism" or "_______ anti-Semitism" for examples. To narrow your search add in phrases like "19th century" or "18th century" or "pogrom." No European country with a substantial Jewish population comes out well if you do a little digging.

2. butlerj1982: As for Taoism, I picked up the anti-state stereotype because it was so often oppressed by those seeking to establish state authority through religion. Moreover, academic sites like Stanford's religion pages contain quotes like this:
"Dao-centered philosophical reflection engendered a distinctive ambivalence in advocacy -- manifested in their indirect, non-argumentative style, their use of poetry and parable. In ancient China, the political implication of this Dao-ism was mainly an opposition to authority, government, coercion, and even to normal socialization in values. Daoist 'spontaneity' was contrasted with subtle or overt indoctrination in any specific or social dao."

Likewise, Taoism was often associated with rebellious groups and millenarian movements. I think there is something to the idea of Taoism being anti-authoritarian. One last quote from the same page:
Meantime, "Daoist" religious groups (often rebellious or millenarian movements) emerged in varied forms in each dynasty. Because of its "naturalistic" and anti-authoritarian ethos, the term could encompass virtually any "local" religion with its familiar natural "Gods."

For more about why I made the Taoism/anti-statist connection, see
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/taoism/, where I found the above quotes (although I've read plenty of books on Taoism as well, and they also emphasize its anti-authoritarian philosophy).

Judaism shouldn't spread quickly, as Orthodox Judaism states that in order to be considered Jewish, your mother must have been Jewish.Or you have to be ritually converted, as many people are (although obviously several orders of magnitude fewer than those converted to Christianity).
And Judaism does not have a missionary tradition.It did, however, encourage conversion if you go back to around 150ish BCE (the Maccabean Kingdom, a theocracy) or earlier. The more devout kings would have idolaters executed.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Taoism and Hindu really have missonary traditions either.I don't think any major religion has a missionary tradition. Not like Christianity does, anyway. Some might favor those of their own religion over others to an extent sufficient to encourage conversion in states controlled by those of the religion, or they might flat-out force conversion where possible, but going around peacefully trying to persuade random strangers through argument that they should convert? I've never heard of such a thing, outside Christianity.
[Hinduism] sould also demand that you have a caste system. Modern-day India has theoretically outlawed the caste system, and it's certainly Hindu.
i hear what you are saying, but i know of many examples where missionaries from certain faiths have gone undercover and broken laws to proselytize.Ideally, I think that if nonmilitary units enter the borders of a state that doesn't have Open Borders with their owners, the one whose territory was violated should have a choice: treat it as a declaration of war, or ignore it. In the former case, it would be treated as a declaration of war for the purposes of Defensive Pacts and the like; in the latter case, the violating units could still be killed/captured by the violated player without triggering war.

But that's a really, really minor issue for the amount of work it would take, and it doesn't have much if anything to do with this mod.

Edit:
Is there a better term that all Muslims would recognize as an ordinary, relatively low-ranking teacher of the faith?Mullah?

I didn't bother to read through the entire thread (sorry), just a few issues I saw when I read your first post:

Harbor produces +1 health for crab and clam and Grocer +1 health for wine. Have you forgotten about that or just haven't found a way to solve it?

Gah, I forgot my second point. But it was a very, very good one.

I find it sad and disturbing that you chose to include this shameless and stereotypical slander in this forum. I have been to Auschwitz myself and I have found that the local populations has a lot of respect for ALL the people that have been murdered in the death camp. No, no one needs "armed guards" and no one conducts "attacks" on the visitors, regardless of their religion. Im really discouradged that you had to include these lies on this forum. Especially since this it has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Not quite true. There have been news reports of people attacking Jewish tour groups heading to camps such as Auschwitz. However it wasn't the locals doing it. It was Neo-Nazi's and the like who were going to the camps on pilgrimmages to celebrate them. Do a Google search and you should be able to find them. There are some twisted people out there.

Now more on topic, I love this mod! A couple of suggestions though, I'm not sure if they have been mentioned already though.

The Ottoman Empire allowed other religions freely in their state as long as they paid additional taxes. As the Ottomans were the de facto rulers of the Islamic world for quite some time perhaps this should be modelled? Extra happiness for other religions present in a city, or extra tax value for every religion other than Islam?

I'd also like to see additional religions. Christianity split into Catholicism, Orthodox, and Protestantism. That way you could have religious discovery existing longer than just the first 15 minutes of the game and it would allow more diversity. I'm not sure if this is possible though.. game limitations?

Apologies if already mentioned.

Not quite true. There have been news reports of people attacking Jewish tour groups heading to camps such as Auschwitz. However it wasn't the locals doing it. It was Neo-Nazi's and the like who were going to the camps on pilgrimmages to celebrate them. Do a Google search and you should be able to find them. There are some twisted people out there.

OK thats true. But to call them "Poles" I think thats a little racist and stereotypical. Id have no problem if he called them "Neo-Nazis".

I find it sad and disturbing that you chose to include this shameless and stereotypical slander in this forum. I have been to Auschwitz myself and I have found that the local populations has a lot of respect for ALL the people that have been murdered in the death camp. No, no one needs "armed guards" and no one conducts "attacks" on the visitors, regardless of their religion. Im really discouradged that you had to include these lies on this forum. Especially since this it has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

"Sad and disturbing," "shameless and stereotypical slander," "lies?" That's pretty provocative language. Especially since it has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

I have to admit; I too, was a bit miffed by R-A-N-M-A's statement. My family would take issue with the treatment of Jews. But I also appreciate the pride one feels in their heritage. And he has a lot to be proud of. I felt that while it may have been wiser to have let it alone, Simetrical's comments were intended to elucidate and not antagonize.

OK thats true. But to call them "Poles" I think thats a little racist and stereotypical. Id have no problem if he called them "Neo-Nazis".


racist? I was uanaware that the term "Pole" was a derogation. But I did see something racist on the Isramod thread....


Quote:
Originally Posted by ibcoltscrew
Thanks alot for this mods, i can finally kick Sharon's ass I wish someone do Iran and Irak too... Just wanted to save Iraki people from american invasion and support Iran in their nuclear program against Israel and the united state...

I like this mod too, I just found a new worst enemy!!!
Next game I start: Play as america and destroy israel.....
__________________


I think perhaps these posts are better suited on David Duke's or David Irving's websites.

Using the term "Poles" to describe the people conducting these imaginary attacks is derogatory to anyone of Polish origin because it give the impression that all Poles are racist. I thought that this was self explanetory but I guess some people are a little dim. And yeah, I dont agree with Israels raping of the other middle eastern nations with USA's help, oops sorry for having an anti-imperialist opinion. Im just glad I dont live in either of those countries.

PS. I can see where youre opinions are coming from though... I wouldnt expect a memeber of the USAF to have anything but imperialistic ignorance on their mind.

Is there any way to include this mod as a permanent aspect of my game without it ruining any of the other modifications I have done to it?

racist? I was uanaware that the term "Pole" was a derogation. But I did see something racist on the Isramod thread....




I think perhaps these posts are better suited on David Duke's or David Irving's websites.

It is possible to be anti-israel without being anti-semitic. There are Jews that don't like Israel, or Sharon.

However, that misspelling of Iraq is nigh unforgivable.

And here we see exhibit A of why the Firaxis devs did not include any abilities for any religions in the game. It leads to an immeadate flame war; thanks boys.

:(

STFU, this is the mod forum not the hate forum.

I apologize for derailing this topic, and strongly suggest that everyone here stop talking about Poland, Israel, Iraq, etc. and get back on-topic.

I apologize for derailing this topic, and strongly suggest that everyone here stop talking about Poland, Israel, Iraq, etc. and get back on-topic.

Good Idea... so can anyone answer my question from post #63?

Oh, yes it is possible.

Option one, and hopefully what will work for you.

Use windiff to compare the directories of both mods. Hopefully they will have no matches and you can simply take the assets file of the addition and copy and paste it into the other.

Unfortunately, that has happened to me once.

The other way is to compare(using win diff) the files that are the same, and check them against the base file and then see which sections you want to change. Time consuming.

You can try editing the main files, but few would suggest that(I did it with the great person's mod.)

MattJek -- TheFourGuardian posted one solution, but there isn't an easy way to automatically "layer" mods on one another without modifying their files in some way.

I do hope to eventually graft my minor realism mods together into one larger mod, but I want to keep them separate for now. Next up: more realistic civics, then on to arty and nukes....

Gufnork: I don't actually know how to eliminate those bonuses yet. I wonder if I could add in a "if _____ is state religion, then -1 health" counter to the harbor. I'll play around with it and see if I can find a workable and balanced solution.

For people who want splits in Christianity, how about Orthodox and Protestant? Those 2 seem like complete opposites in the same religion...

I have to admit that I did not read through all four pages of posts, but in response to the creator's "under considerations" in his/her original post, why not have the Islamic Missionary be a Sufi? Sufis, if I am remembering right, were missionaries who trained in monastery like buildings. They were responsible for the spread of Islam to Indonesia (in addition to merchants), and I believe parts of Central Asia and western Africa. Don't quote me on the western Africa though. They were compared, I believe, to the the Jesuit missionaries/monestaries of the Christian Catholic Counter-Reformation (I can't remember whether the Sufis were Shi'ites or Sunnis though). Hopefully I haven't mixed up too many facts- if I did and inadvertantly offended you, I'm most sincerely apologetic!

Here's a link to the wikipedia entry on Sufis. There's alot of material, but pertinent information in regards to the role of Sufis as missionaries is in the paragraph I've copied over below (I'm sure there's more in the article, but it's a touch on the lengthy side).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sufism

After having gained influence over the whole of the central Islamic world, the brotherhoods (turuq) became the focus for Islam in the new territories that came under Muslim domination or influence. This included the Indo-Malay territories in the East, and West Africa and Andalusia in the West. The brotherhoods made a significant contribution throughout the centuries in presenting the true face of Islam – the Islam of beauty and love.


By the way, nice idea to include Zoroastrianism, and if I could figure out the technical part of downloading mods (I haven't been able to get any to work so far), I would certainly do so with this one!

One last suggestion, though, perhaps include a "Favored religion" for individual civilizations? You'd have to add another faith- perhaps broadly labled "Pantheism" or other appropriateness for the Aztecs and Incas, and perhaps the Greeks, Romans, and Egyptians as well, although they could be characterized by the Christian and Islamic faiths that the majority of their citizens follow today. This would of course mean that there would be no Jewish civilization, but I can't come up with all the ideas!

Another suggestion for this mod down the road (or any other religion mod): an option to disable certain religions at game start. A new screen during world selection would be ideal. As I said a while back:

It seems to me that there are too many religions in the game if you are only playing a 2-4 civ game. I would like to be able to disable individual religions depending on the game. This would also allow me to disable individual religions which are modded in the future with traits I don't feel like playing against.

Everything sounds good except I'm a bit confused about what this means:

Hinduism
Disadvantage: Cows produce -1 food in cities with Hindu Temples.
Advantage: Cows produce +1 happiness in cities with Hindu Temples

I started my first game with this mod last nite. I discovered hinduism and a built a hindu great city with a prophet. From then on, Hinduism has been spreading to other cities on the same continent (of other civs) like crazy. Is this normal. PS there is no other major religion on the same continent.

Everything sounds good except I'm a bit confused about what this means:

to give a simplified answer, in the hindu faith, cows are sacred and therefore not eaten. that is why they are given no food bonus for them, but receive a happiness bonus instead.

something else that hasn't been answered yet (at least not here, i read all 4 pages, but didn't look somewhere else): is it easy to add religions?

i want to see my atheism included! i even wrote an e-mail to firaxis a couple of months ago before civ was released when i first read about the religions-concept. i didn't get an answer though, as you may rightly guess.

i could even live with the paradoxy of having atheism included as a "religion".

ps: if you tell me what you need, i might provide you with the german names of the different religion's missionaries.

I have to admit that I did not read through all four pages of posts, but in response to the creator's "under considerations" in his/her original post, why not have the Islamic Missionary be a Sufi? Sufis, if I am remembering right, were missionaries who trained in monastery like buildings. They were responsible for the spread of Islam to Indonesia (in addition to merchants), and I believe parts of Central Asia and western Africa. Don't quote me on the western Africa though. They were compared, I believe, to the the Jesuit missionaries/monestaries of the Christian Catholic Counter-Reformation (I can't remember whether the Sufis were Shi'ites or Sunnis though). Hopefully I haven't mixed up too many facts- if I did and inadvertantly offended you, I'm most sincerely apologetic!

Just so, I was going to suggest Sufis as well. And, in response to your question, sufism can be found in Shi'i and Sunni communities.

It basically just means "religious specialist" or "mystic." (Well, literally, it means "wool" because of the simple woolen garments they originally wore.)

If I take Christianity, I would like to be able to build the "Intelligent Design" wonder. It would counter-affect the "Theory of Evolution" from the lost wonder mod.

It will prove to the world that God created the planet, and has an effect of increasing CHRISTIAN religion (prayer in schools), while taking a hit on science. The player does not have to have Christian as the state religion to get the bonus to Christian spread rate.


Since you are taking on a wonderful idea to customize religions! not only does it add flavor to the game, but it makes the choices strategic in nature. I tend to pick whatever religion I actually discover and stick with that, but now I would probably consider more carefully.

However, I also see an opportunity here to wrap within this mod issues that people seem to care about. One at least here in America is the issue of Intelligent Design. Creating this wonder, would be the fruition of the plans of people whose goal it is to institute something that is going to benefit Christianity.

I would dare say you could also consider how the issues of abortion/women's right affect and polarize a society. I think rather than explore "Babbism" or slightly more obscure religions, I'd rather see using religion to explore division in a culture. In the Modern time, this could be simulated by for instance creating "Liberal Christianity" that gets discovered with a modern technology.

Once it is unlocked, it is just like any other religion, but there could be benefits and trade offs to having both the 'original' or what some might call 'traditional/conservative' and the liberal christianity existing in the same city. In addition, certain cultural civic choices, such as woman's suffrage could have either heightened affects or actually negative effects based on the state religion.

IE: Islam and woman's suffrage = oil and water

I thought Sufis were mystics, and that Sufism was often regarded as heresy by orthodox Muslims. At least I seem to recall that from my college religion courses (more than a decade ago, so perhaps my memory fails me).

As for more religions, they're hard to add until we have more tools. There's another thread about this, and the city graphics in particular are difficult to add. That's one reason I replaced a faith in this mod (the other is that I don't want there to be too many religions in the game). I also agree that seven religions is a lot for a small map or a game with few players. I'll add the option to disable one or more religions once I figure out how. This would also allow me to add in more religions (again, once we figure out how to do it well) so people could choose to play with only the faiths that interest them. That would add a lot of play variety.

One last thing: I'd love to add the "religious victory" condition that's been described in other threads, but I want to work out all the kinks (ie how to make things fair for the AI, which doesn't try for a religious victory) before adding it to the mod.

mirorred at http://civilization4.filefront.com/ :)

I seem to have found a bug: if I convert to Zoroastrianism then there's no icon next to my name on the scoreboard but there is an empty space instead (assuming I founded it). If the AI converts to Zoro. after I found it then their entire name vanishes, leaving just their score (which can still be clicked on to bring up the diplomacy interface).

How could I reverse the icon changes so that Zoro. uses the Confucan icons? That would be a temp. fix for the problem and it would also make it easier to spot which cities have converted to Zoro. because the icon included is hard to distinguish against the city background, especially if there are lots of icons there already.

There is a slight problem with judaism and islam..
If some other religion decides to bombard you with missionaries, you're pretty much screwed, no?

Don't forget there is a large Jewish population in Poland.

no there isn't. the holocaust, you know?

[The Poles] were essentially the only European nation to never treat the jewish people like crap.

that has to be the least correct statement EVER in this forum.
the poles were and still are rabid anti-semites. radio marija, a catholic station, routinely issues statements that would land them in jail in countries that forbid racist remarks, like germany and austria.

and, R-A-N-M-A, your statements on the christian faiths are a complete invention. orthodox christianity and ROMAN catholicism (catholic does NOT equal roman) developed from the same roots, where did you GET your "was invented in greece" theory?

Catholic means "universal" in greek, and refers to the nicene creed of 325, "a Christian statement of faith accepted by the Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Anglican, and most Protestant churches." (wikipedia). so, the "catholic church" INCLUDES the orthodox one.

SEVEN HUNDRED YEARS later, a change made to the nicene creed, called the filiolique (more here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filioque_clause)) caused the split of the roman catholic and the orthodox church, the great schism of 1054.

Umm...I was wondering if you could include UUs for each religion, other than the missionary unit. Maybe Crusader, Warrior monk...ect.
Patricius

I'm kinda late here coz I didn't realize civ4 could be modified before they released the modifying tool in "early 2006", how did you do that anyway? :D

Ok first I'm a Moslem living in Egypt, and I suggest the name Da'eiah (which means an "outreacher") or the name Shaikh (which is essentially someone high-in-religion in its religious meaning). People call me Sheakh -Egyptian dialect for Shaikh- because I'm growing my beard :)

Btw the word Imam means leader, and it serves for both the one who prays infront of a group of people (in mosques or other places, and can very be a "normal Moslem"). Or the Caliph, who is the leader of the Moslem nation as a whole.

I suggest.. no, I INSIST on someway to make ethnic cleansing and remove undesired religions from your cities on a cost of unhappiness (maybe even riots or destruction of state-religion buildings in some other cities?) + Other civs adopting the persecuted religion might declare war on you or at least hate you alot ---> Which the AI learns to use properly so it's fair!

Also there's a small problem about the general idea of your patch: if a city has, say, 4 relgious-temples in it including hinduism. Then, in that case, cows shouldn't have much of an effect coz hindus compose about 1/4 of the citizens only. I think it should refer to STATE RELIGION to do all these effects... not simply having a temple in the city

Judaism
Disadvantages: ...Cannot build Jewish Missionaries (it's just not a missionary faith)...This can actually result in some of your cities ending up without Judaism.

How about just making them cost twice as much as the missionaries of other religions?

Ranathari -- I'll work on this. I had noticed this as well but I hadn't connected it to the mod (I thought it was a bug in the game). I'll test it out to see what's going on. I have noticed an odd text bug here or there in the building descriptions and I need to hunt those down and squish them.

Cyberchrist -- I'm OK with Judaism being somewhat limited in size, but I agree that there has to be a better way. Perhaps I could give Judaism a few free missionaries when first founded. I could call them the Maccabees or something. I'm still working on play-balance so I'm open to suggestions.

Others -- Many of these suggestions will have to wait until someone who can program better than I rewrites large parts of the python (or perhaps until the SDK is released in 2006). I do intend to pursue the religious UU option, though -- but expect it to take a while before I am able to release a version with them included. I have other bugs to fix first (Taoism is behaving oddly).

Please add a documentation file to the mod.

Zoroastrism could come with Monarchy or Writing - these techs are a bit earlier than Code of Laws.

was wondering about mroe ancient religoins like druidism and shaminism could these be included?

The Islamic missionary could be called "alim." Alims (or Ulama for the proper Arabic plural) were religious scholars but Medieval:Total War uses alims as a way to spread Islam. I'm a Muslim, too, btw.

Abba, what happens if we enter the lines of changed health and happiness into the GameInfo CIV4ReligionInfo.xml file? Would this make the effect for all cities in a civ embracing a certain religion?

'alem, plural 'olama' would rather mean "religious scientist", and he teaches Islam to Moslems not to non-Moslems. The ones responsible for spreading Islam (like Ahmad Didat -may Ullah have mercy on his soul-) are Do'ah, single Da'eiah

And while we're coming up with completely opaque terms for missionaries that probably won't make it into the mod, makriv would perhaps be a Jewish equivalent, or shali'akh (dati) according to my dictionary.

I'm still looking for a better Islamic Missionary name than Imam. Mullah is too high-ranking for the purpose. I need a name for an ordinary teacher of the faith.
[/LIST]

I would propose Da'yeh which is the name Muslims give for some one who teaches the religion with the prurpose of educating people or speading the faith.

Imam is more of a mosque leader who mainly heads the prayer and preach the Friday Prayer.

Sheikh on the other hand is more of a title that is commonly given to religious people whether they have a functional rule in the religion or just being religiously spiritual.

I am a Sunni Muslim myself, though I am confident that the same naming is followed by Shiite Muslims, yet I am not quiet sure if the functionalities are the same.

BTW, good mod you have got there ;)

@Kaenash: Why would Intelligent Design neccessarily favor christianity?
Almost all religions have some sort of creation story that goes against evolution.
Egypt had one, Islam has one (Bahamut isn't just from Final Fantasy ;) ), Judaism has one, even Hinduism has one. Not so sure about Confucianism, Taoism, or Buddhism, but they were around a long while before Darwin, so they probably have creation myths as well.

If you're going to have Intelligent Design as a wonder, you should have it benefit all those religions as well.
And before you ask, personally I believe that evolution is an intelligent design. :lol:

I like Da'yeh -- I'll have to make sure it doesn't mean different things to different Muslims before I make the change. My initial term was Alim, but this can refer to any Muslim scholar so it didn't seem quite right.

Wait until we get to the proper names for religious UUs :)

Fachy: I don't think that will work. I played around with putting the info in different places and the game would never load correctly. It may be possible, but my guess is that something else -- a new schema, some Python changes, or work with the SDK -- will be necessary before we can dispense with the "Temple effects" method of representing religious difference.

Elmoro, you repeated EXACTLY what I said!

abba,
I just figured Islam's spread rate is 75 not 133! I hope that wasn't deliberate? I also think it spreads more as the rate increases not vice versa, since I found christianity was set to 25 not 400 (you said you'd make it spread slower on its own, but uses more missionaries)

Moreover, I didn't find the 2% extra cost in hurry production you said about the taoism temple! In which line is it?

I was wondering what could happen if we changed the line
<StateReligion>NONE</StateReligion>
Would this make the temple only built/effective under a certain state religion?

Question: Does the AI "realize" these changes? For example would a Jewish AI create a temple if it needs more health in a city having kosher cows? If it wasn't then the game wouldn't be balanced

Also abba, PLEASE don't use any prophet names for Islam, it's considared very atrocious to use any real prophets names on games or general depicting, having a great prophet called Mohammad for example (or even Jesus, Adam, or Moses..etc) will stab any Moslem which reads about it, including me

Also abba, PLEASE don't use any prophet names for Islam, it's considared very atrocious to use any real prophets names on games or general depicting, having a great prophet called Mohammad for example (or even Jesus, Adam, or Moses..etc) will stab any Moslem which reads about it, including meActually, I don't think there is a prophet named Jesus in the game. What an odd coincidence, that they thoughtfully leave out the name that could be offensive to a relatively large percentage of their readership but happen to forget the ones that only Muslims will get offended at. :crazyeye:

No there's no prophet named Mohammad in the game either. I was just warning abba of the consequences of modding that, whether it's Jesus or Mohammad or Lot.

There is, however, a prophet named Abo Bakr (who is the most prominent companion of prophet Mohammad) and I already sent 2k games an email about that

No, they haven't replied of course!!

There is, however, a prophet named Abo Bakr (who is the most prominent companion of prophet Mohammad) and I already sent 2k games an email about that
IIRC, Abu Bakr was Arabia's leader in Civ3.
Was his status as a prophet the reason he didn't show up as a leader in Civ4?

I dunno, maybe people like me complained so they decided to make him as a prophet, which is not as significant as a leader, especially after the "kingdom of heaven" was made :D. I removed his name from the prophets' list in my mod

I'm trying to make it impossible to switch religions before 200 turns instead of 5, anyone knows where that line is?

No there's no prophet named Mohammad in the game either.There's a "Mohammed Shah", twentieth Great Prophet listed in civ4gametextinfos_greatpeople.xml. Right after Abu Bakr. Surely that's not some other Mohammed?

Anyway, it would be rather unfortunate if almost all major Jewish names had to be removed from the Great Prophet list (a few could presumably stay, like Rabbi Akiva and whatnot). I mean, no offense to your religious convictions, but I would kind of prefer to see my religion adequately represented in the list, not deprived of having any significant figures from before a few centuries CE or whatever.

The name Mohammad is probably the most dominant name in the Arab world, maybe even in the Moslem world. My name is Ahmad, which is another name for the prophet Mohammad (comes from the same verbal root)

I don't know who Mohammad Shah is, but Shah means king. So perhaps he was a Persian Moslem leader or something

I found the name "Moses" in the prophet list and removed it of course, for respect to prophet Moosa (Arabic name for Moses). I even changed the name of "great prophet" to "great religious guy" all together! To avoid "playing" with "prophets" and depicting them in a game

omg you're a jew??

@Kaenash:

And before you ask, personally I believe that evolution is an intelligent design. :lol:

So a deist, basically. Hey, that's an interesting idea for, if not an actual religion, some sort of proto-religious tech or what have you.

I also wish Shinto were incorporated into the game, but (until the Meiji and Showa periods, where things get state-sponsored and distorted) it's not really a very codified faith, nor a very centralized one. I would, however, like my Japanese civ to be able to have some of the classic shrine architecture and so forth, just for accuracy's sake.

Maybe the Shinto cathedral would be Yasukuni, +1 unhappiness in countries declared war on around 40 turns ago? :crazyeye:

Edit: After reading the posts above mine, I think in general there needs to be more random silliness and idiosyncracies in various religions. It would, of course, be realistic if religious leaders seriously manufacture issues out of controlling polygonal, rudimentary versions of holy guys in a ludicrously oversimplified fictional version of human history. :rolleyes:

I didn't read through the whole thread, but I have an idea for a disadvantage for zoroastrianism: -1 health in cities (or you could make the rate increase with the population) because dead bodies don't get buried, but are left to be eaten by vultures.
You can then add some extra positive effects too.

And by the way, I think that you shouldn't disable the imam just because of the higher spread rate of Islam, since it gets founded much later than the other religions and thus needs a boost to get as many followers as the other religions.

Right now my biggest priority is fixing the graphic bug. The cause of the bug is clear: I can't seem to correctly cut and paste the Zoroastrianism symbols from the font tga files in the Greek World mod onto the Confucianism symbols in the regular font tga files. I'm using the GIMP, but I'm doing something wrong because the borders around the symbols aren't propoerly preserved when I do the cut and paste. Does anyone have a guide up for editing the tga files?

I found the name "Moses" in the prophet list and removed it of course, for respect to prophet Moosa (Arabic name for Moses). I even changed the name of "great prophet" to "great religious guy" all together! To avoid "playing" with "prophets" and depicting them in a game

That's a mature and commendable response to something you find offensive in the game. Someone expecting Firaxis to change the basic game for everyone wouldn't be - it's a game, not reality.

omg you're a jew??

Hmmm. Care to expand on that please?
If someone said "omg you're a muslim?" what would your response be?

Maybe I'm out of turn, but it seems like this mod is running counter to the philosophy of the game slightly in that it is restricting the religious movements in-game to historical implimentations rather than allowing the "what if something else happened" scenarios. One of the specific quotes from the manual was "what if Judaism developed a missionary tradition?" There's nothing inherint in Judaism per-se that restricted that from happening. It's just the way things worked out.

Maybe another approach to take would be to treat religions as having a primary and secondary characteristic ala the civilizations leaders that adds a positive influence on an aspect of the religion? Christianity might have traits like "evangelical" (more, cheaper missionaries) and "organized", Islam "evangelical" and "ummah" (double foreign leader pleasure for same state religion, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ummah), Zoarastrian "philosophical" and "juristic" (decreased maintenance or similar)... etc. You are then not judging a religion as having negatives as much are you are recognizing that the core beliefs of some are given to express themselves in certain ways.

Adding "Atheism" as a religion that is created by the "humanism" advance might also make sense. Actually, it should probably be called "Secularism" or possibly "Positivism" since you shouldn't define something by what it's not. Religions are not necessarily anti-science (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_science) but more than others it may have "scientific" (bonus research) and "material" (bonus commercial) as properties. Positivism's temples may be any social structure that highlights humanism. I'd look for a common municiple element of maoist china, communist russia, and their satelites to see what filled this role.

A world event which creates a schism in an established and spread religion would be an awesome addition as well. What if Budhism had split like Islam? Or what if Hinduism split twice like Christianity (Roman v Greek, Catholic v Protestant) resulting in drastic shifts in forgien policy and sparking continential wars and chaos as your income from the adherents was halved. It would be bad, of course. Possibly caused by warring with a nation of the same faith, or by having a civic despised by the religion. (Christianity: Serfdom?, Islam: Caste?, Hindu: Organized Relgion?)

I love the idea of giving religions a greater depth in the game. I think this mod is a step in the right direction, but maybe just a little more to the left. ;)

(Sorry if this came across as a lecture. I mean no offense to the obvious hard work and deep consideration displayed by the mod's creator)

The name Mohammad is probably the most dominant name in the Arab world, maybe even in the Moslem world. My name is Ahmad, which is another name for the prophet Mohammad (comes from the same verbal root)I thought the commonness came from Mohammad, rather than predating him. That is, I would have thought the many Mohammads of today are named after Mohammad the prophet, whose name would have been fairly unremarkable and uncommon in his name.
I don't know who Mohammad Shah is, but Shah means king. So perhaps he was a Persian Moslem leader or somethingLooking at the dates more closely, you seem to be right. The entries look to be orgainzed by date; "Mohammad Shah" is right after Thomas Aquinas (c. 1225–1274) and right before Tsongkhapa (1357–1419). That puts him around 1274–1357. Unfortunately, while Wikipedia lists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_kings_of_Persia) several Mohammads who were kings of Persia then, it doesn't have articles for any of them. It just looks weird to me that they would include someone who's surely such a minor religious figure. Oh well.
omg you're a jew??Yup, Orthodox Jew, why?

Ostar: About the firaxis thing, I don't think the gameplay is much less fun if they removed the names of prophets considering it may offend some people. And hey, speaking of fun and offending, making all religions equal shows how freaked Firaxis is when it comes to "gameplay fun vs. offending people"

lol if Moslems have been slaughtering Jews in a certain country for over 50 years I wouldn't be surprised if a Jew went like "omg you're a Moslem??" :)

Simetrical: nothing... just... inquiring...

Judaism WAS a missionizing faith early in its history, before the spread of Christianity and Islam made it illegal for Jews to missionize. There is NO historical reason that the game should restrict Jewish missionizing.

btw, a few suggestions:

1) Remove the penalty on Hindus and cows. Cows are a huge source of food for Hindus, in the form of milk and dairy products.

2) Judaism and Islam are both legalistic religions. Perhaps allow Jewish Yeshivot and Islamic Madrassas (i.e. Monastaries) to double as Courthouses if Judaism/Isalm is the state religion. Both, however, also have more regulations than other faiths. For Judaism, perhaps have 1/7 of hammers become culture (Sabbath rest), and for Islam perhaps have 1/12 of food become culture (Ramadan fasting precluding working in the fields).

3) Islam spread by the sword. If Islam is a state religion, add a % likelihood that conquered cities immediately adopt Islam.

4) Give Christianity a much bigger peaceful (natural) spread rate than other religions, and make Christian missionaries cheaper to build.

lol if Moslems have been slaughtering Jews in a certain country for over 50 years I wouldn't be surprised if a Jew went like "omg you're a Moslem??" :)


Oh, like 50 years of constant terrorism and warfare by Muslims towards Israel -- denying Israel's right to exist, rejecting every peace offer ever made, and sending constant suicide bombers to blow up buses and cafes? Please. You evidently are a bigot, and one so totally indoctrinated in anti-Israel hate that you believe Jews have been "slaughtering" Muslims for 50 years, and are shocked that you are having a conversation with a descendant of apes and piges.

Oh, like 50 years of constant terrorism and warfare by Muslims towards Israel -- denying Israel's right to exist, rejecting every peace offer ever made, and sending constant suicide bombers to blow up buses and cafes? Please. You evidently are a bigot, and one so totally indoctrinated in anti-Israel hate that you believe Jews have been "slaughtering" Muslims for 50 years, and are shocked that you are having a conversation with a descendant of apes and piges.

He actually said thad Muslims have been slaughtering Jews.

This is rapidly turning into a religious debate.

Koh: Cows give milk for everyone, but they don't give hindus meat. So the point was about meat. And could you tell me why aren't jews missionaring NOW, since there are no laws which bans them to do so? Judiasm is both a faith and a RACE, unlike Christianity and Islam

Right so I go into your (britishly colonized) country, make the britts promise me a homeland in return of my help to them in WWI, take lands from your country and kick you out of your house coz "Hitler burned 80 billion Moslems in WWII", how senseful!

Then when YOU defend yourself you're a terrorist!! No wonder, the modern definition of "terrorism" is "resistence" anyway... I guess Hitler was right to crush the french res...oops, terrorism when he invaded France! Those bad Frenches were bombing his poor soldiers *sniff*

And the Jews aren't the descendants of pigs and apes, rather the ones who obeyed God were NOT cursed, and the ones we see today are the descendants of good jews ^.^

And if you were trying to be sarcastic that my religion preaches nonsense, I suggest you take a good look at Genesis and Exodus, mr. rational

I was wondering when somehting like this would finally be done... adds more flavor to religons.
:)

What ads more flavor? Fighting?

...the modern definition of "terrorism" is "resistence" anyway... It most certainly isn't! The modern definition of "terrorism" is ... wait for it ... "terrorism". If you have been made to believe otherwise you have been badly manipulated and you really should think long and hard about the validity of anything else you have been 'taught' from the same source.


Anyway, back on topic, how about making all non state religions cause 1 unhappy each in cities that have them. This would of course be countered by the temples but would remove the ridiculous situation of cities with more religions being happier than the those with fewer.

As for Zoroastrianism then how about Temples causing -1 health pr default due to their open air burial rituals(as someone suggested earlier), but having access to Incense gives +1 health and +1 happiness?

Also, I am not sure the changes to the Grocer and Harbor is a step in the right direction.

What ads more flavor? Fighting?
Yes but more specifically a simple differentiation.

Any difference I think makes it more interesting.


I am hoping that in the future we can sway the game into having religous wars. This is a critical part of human history and should be implimented in the game. Currently it looks a little difficult to impliment but it had potential. I think if we came up with some sort of propoganda skeme that put negative results on certain religons this may work. depends on how the AI reacts to it though....

It most certainly isn't! The modern definition of "terrorism" is ... wait for it ... "terrorism". If you have been made to believe otherwise you have been badly manipulated and you really should think long and hard about the validity of anything else you have been 'taught' from the same source.

Okay so: Palestinian resistence are terrorists, Lebanese resistence are terrorists, Iraqi resistence are terrorists, Afghani resistence are terrorists, Chechnyan resistence are terrorists. WHILE american occupying forces are democracy lovers, israeli occupying forces are peace lovers, russian killing bastards are unity lovers... doesn't sound right to me anyway!!

The very reason I should "wait for it" is that ANY definition of terrorism would certainly make america and israel the biggest terrorizing countries in the world

Oh but wait a minute I almost forgot.. killing Moslems doesn't make you a terrorist, only killing Westerns and Jews make you a terrorist..hmm...


Anyway, back on topic, how about making all non state religions cause 1 unhappy each in cities that have them. This would of course be countered by the temples but would remove the ridiculous situation of cities with more religions being happier than the those with fewer

And how exactly can we do that?

@Fachy:
I don't know why you insist on describing 'resistance' and 'terrorism' as being the same - they are not. I will try to spell out the differences
1) Resistance is fighting foreign forces that have occupied your country - in your own country - in an attempt to end the occupation
2) Terrorism can be any number of violent acts performed to force any larger group of peoples to meet with specific demands. Such acts include (but are not confined to); attacking foreign 'enemies' abroad(full scale war excluded), attacking non-occupying foreign people visiting or legally residing in your own country(tourists, diplomats, peacekeeping forces etc.), attacking your fellow countrymen(civil war excluded), willfully attacking innocent civilians of any nationality(a crime under all circumstances actually)

An 'attack' can be things like - shooting, bombing, kidnapping, taking hostage, hi-jacking, sabotaging etc. etc.


Now, regarding the way to make non-state religions cause unhappiness then in the "CIV4CivicInfos.xml" file you need to change the following in all the Government civics (yes, government):
<iNonStateReligionHappiness>-1</iNonStateReligionHappiness>

The reason you can't do it under the Religion civics is because there is a bug in the calculation of negative values if the <bStateReligion> is set to 1 ... in the same civic.

A small drawback(or maybe not) to this approach is that Religious Freedom civic will now - at best - give 1 less happiness than with a civic allowing a state religion, but that can be remedied by giving the largest cities automatic extra happiness like the Representation civic (or something).

Koh and Cyberchrist: Hindus still get some health from cows' milk, but they have to wait until refrigeration and supermarkets. I always felt that the initial health bonus was eating the meat, as it is with pigs and deer. The second health bonus, on the other hand, is from being able to ship milk throughout the empire due to refrigeration. (Local milk consumption is already accounted for by the tile bonus).

On Zoroastrianism: I'll look into the health effects of the Parsees' disposal of the dead. I'm sure there's an article or two somewhere in the research literature.

On Terrorism: I give my students an assignment which asks them to define terrorism (nature of the acts involved, whether motive matters, whether who commits the act matters, whether the civilian/military nature of the target matters, whether there is a peacetime/wartime distinction, etc) and then consistently apply the definition to historical summaries from which I have removed the proper nouns. Their grade depends only on being consistent with their own definition. They routinely describe the US as committing terrorist acts (support for the Nicaraguan contras always makes the cut, and sometimes the Boston Tea Party does as well -- vandalism of corporate goods because the hated government was favoring the corporation to the detriment of cons