I just got a great idea for modding the religion. In the real world there are usually two sides of each religion.

This is the list of religions discussed so far with two sects.

Here are the Religions that are in:
Judaism(Reform and Orthodox)
Christianity(Catholic and Protestant)
Islam(Suuni and Shiite)
Buddhism(Mahayana and Vajrayana)
Hinduism(Bhakti and Tantra)
Zoroastrianism(Modern-Day and Ancient)
Ancinet Polytheism(Triadic/Olympus and Amenity)
Ancient Cults(Nordic and Sami)
Native American(Tenocian and Navajo)

Definetly Not In:
Confucianism, Taoism, and Shintoism.
Comments/Suggestions?

Great Wonder Ideas
Vatican City (Catholic)
The Kabba Stone (Islam)
The Sacred River (Hindu)
Dome of the Rock (Islam)
Notre Dame (Catholic)
Cologne Cathedral (Protestant)
The Parthenon(not new, but now religious)
Mt. Olympus (Greek/Romam Polytheism)
The Sphinx (Egyptian Polytheism)
Temple of Ra (Egyptian Polytheism)
Mount Sinai (Judaism)
newgrange (No Idea!)
big jesus statue in brasil (Catholic)
"kamakura no daibutsu" or "nara no daibutsu" (Big statues formerly in Afghanistan)
Lumbini (buddhist holy site)
Bodh Gayav (buddhist)
Sarnath (buddhist)
Kusinara (buddhist)
Mount Taylor (navajo holy site)
Blanca Peak (navajo)
San Francisco Peaks (navajo)
Hesperus Peak (navajo)

Thanks to Quizny for a lot of these!

UUs for Each Religion
Judaism
Ancient:Maccabe
Classical:Jewish Resistor(Roman times, you remember?)
Midevil:Camel Archer
Renaissance:German Trench Infantry
Industrial:Ghetto Rebel(Controversial, yes I know but I think it works)
Modern:Merkava(Israeli Tank)

Christianity
Ancient:Barbarian(Throws rocks, like a warrior)
Classical:Gladiator
Midevil:Crusader
Rennaisance:Inquisitor
Industrial:Colonial Infantry
Modern:Swiss Army Mech Infantry

Islam
Ancient:Berber Trader(Replaces Scout)
Classical:Arabic Swordsman (Different from below)
Midevil:Fanatic(Crescent-Shaped Sword)
Rennaisance:Janisarry
Industrial:AK Infantry
Modern:Al-Zarar Main Battle Tank

Buddhism
Ancient:Sherpas
Classical:Warrior Monks
Midevil:Buddhist Pikemen
Rennasance:French Colonial Infantry
Industrial:NVA Infantry
Modern:Free Tibet Protestor

Hinduism
Ancient:Harrapan Slinger
Classical:Indian Swordsman
Midevil:Elephant Archer
Renassance:British Colonial Infantry
Industrial:Indian Infantry
Modern:Arjun Tanks

Native American
Ancient:Native American Archer
Classical:Eagle Warrior
Midevil:Horse Archer(Native American Flavor)
Renassance:"Guardian"(Meso-American Pikeman)
Industrial:Native American Rifleman
Modern:"War Device" (Aztec words, really just a tank with a Mexican flag and a machinegunner wearing a sombrero

Zoroastrianism
Ancient:Persian Heavy Calvary
Classical:Immortal
Midevil:Camel Archer
Rennasance:British Colonial Infantry
Industrial:Persian Infantry
Modern:Iranian Infantry

Olympus
Ancient:Hoplite
Classical:Phalanx
Midevil:Pilgrim Ship(To Jerusalem, added movement, transport)
Rennasance:Italian Explorer
Industrial:Italian Infantry
Modern:Ariete

Ancient Cults
Ancient:Barbarian Warrior
Classical:North. European Spearmen
Midevil:Viking Raider
Rennasance:Norwegian Longboat?
Industrial:Molitov Cocktail Soldiers
Modern:M109 Howitzer

i agree and have those rivals of the same religion but different sects, hate eachother either more then other civs with just other religions,and what about Zoroastrianism as a added religion also?, I agree also that Confucianism should be removed do to it mainly being a philosophy not a religion.

I like Zoroastrianism as a religion choice too. Does anybody know if its possible to add another religion. As of rival inner-religions, I think it would make a civ, for example, with Suuni Islam hate one with Shiite Islam. Would be even more negative that regular difference.

yes and this would make good scenarios such as the Great Schism, Protestant Reformation, and even some modern ones like between Iraq and Iran being that they hate eachother do to sects... good idea hopefully someone will make these options possible. me personally have no clue...

Yeah me also. Just a thought for people to mod. Maybe I'll learn to do it. Sigh.

I like Zoroastrianism as a religion choice too. Does anybody know if its possible to add another religion. As of rival inner-religions, I think it would make a civ, for example, with Suuni Islam hate one with Shiite Islam. Would be even more negative that regular difference.

Yes it is possible to add another religion, but it looks terrible on the religous information screen ( I know, I tried to add norse without removing an existing)

So , somehow the screen must be resized ... but in generell I thinks it is not a problem. What worries me more about the idea is game balance. If you split every religion in 2 fractions, then every civ ends up with its own religion, and the idea of alliance building via religion won't work any more ...

So IMO those fractions should have an different effect than just work as another religion ( but unfortunally no idea what would work here ) , OR such an split should only happen, if one religion is state religion of 5 or more civs. In this case such an split would prevent that one religous block would become too powerfull.

Ancient Polytheism
Greek/ Roman Polytheism
Egyptian Polytheism

Year would like to see some ancient religions in. Maybe even an only ancient religon mod ... but that would be a different one ... ;)

I just got a great idea for modding the religion. In the real world there are usually two sides of each religion.

Christianity
Protestant
Catholicism

Islam
Suuni
Shiite

Judaism
Pious?
Non-Pious?
Yeah we're going to have to find some for the rest.

Also, I think Confucianism should be replaced with something else:
Ancient Polytheism
Greek/ Roman Polytheism
Egyptian Polytheism

Comments/Suggestions?

For Judaism, you could have Orthodox, Progressive Judaism which is a sub-branch made of both Reform and Reconstructionist sects, Masorti (Traditional) Judaism, and Humanistic which is a relatively new branch which was founded in the U.S.

Not every suggestion has to be viewed in how it would fit into the core game. I see some definate scenario possibilities with this. I think it sounds like a great idea. For Judaism.. maybe Orthodox v. Reformed ?

You are forgetting the Anti-Christian faction, or Satanic Cult, that instead of spreading smiley faces :), spreads illness :cry:. It could work like a disease :nuke:, with vampirical barbarians feeding off of your population :eek:, and if left go, the 'disease' ultimately undermines your government with a series of coup d'etats and takes over your Civ :sad:. Kind of like real life, :crazyeye: huh?

Umm yeah this works too. Well about gameplay issue, I think if you have 18 civs at once 2 religions wont be used. Besides also one civ can foind multi-religions. I think it will be fine. Will probably need to be played on bigger maps however.

There are far more than two versions of Christianity - there's Catholic, Protestant, Chalcedonian Orthodox, non-Chalcedonian Orthodox, Church of the East...

Umm yeah this works too.

You like that. Okay, then what about the classical Egyptian, Greek, Roman, Celtic, and Norse religions :confused: Or are they, and by Catholic definition, :mischief: pagan?

Shinto, man. Shinto... :cool:

There are far more than two versions of Christianity - there's Catholic, Protestant, Chalcedonian Orthodox, non-Chalcedonian Orthodox, Church of the East...

I know there are. But orthodox and eastern church are very close to being "in communion" with the catholic church. Farther west is where we would hit problems. Protestants are alone. But then we forget Pyscebalians (Not Spelled Right), Methodists, Re-Baptists, Anglican, etc. I just picked the two biggest in Christianity.

You like that. Okay, then what about the classical Egyptian, Greek, Roman, Celtic, and Norse religions :confused: Or are they, and by Catholic definition, :mischief: pagan?

I was being sarcastic. Its a little weird. I would like those religions put into the game. I, personally, am Catholic but not very religious.

Shinto is a good religion too.

I think Zoroastrianism, Mithraism, Eleusis Mysteries and Cult of Kybele are good examples of ancient religions that spread in a similar way as Christianity or Islam, rather than being confined to one culture or state (and as such all make good candidates for religious mods). I am somewhat weary about the stuff like "Greek Polytheism" simply because it would be very weird to have it developed by anyone who is not Greek.

Homegrown: It's Reform Judaism, not Reformed. Reform Jews are very sensitive about that.

Shinto is a good religion too.

Are you sure? Animism: do you know what that is? Saracasm and humor aside, the point I'm making, in a round-a-bout way, is that few people understand religion past the notion of a particular 'belief system' within the field of cosmology and epistemology. Although, the difference between "belief-system" (as a metaconcept unto itself) and "religion" is that religion is formulated through perceptionally based phenomena as compared to conceptually based notions. For example, "God said, so and so..." said the prophet. "I believe that guy is crazy." said the atheist. Or, "The sky opened up, the earth shook, and the trees whispered." said the righteous one. "Was that a ufo, I saw? I think a truck drove by, and there's wind in the leaves." said the sci-fi buff.

I LIKE this added feature and find its sociological ramifications interesting, as well as the idea of including denominations of religious schooling. Although, what I would like to see, is the core of religion operate more so in its capacity as a continuum, perfected through the integration of religious doctrine; hence, as a formal venue of play, culminating with a religious victory (sounded by trumpets and angels, baby).

Yeah you guys are porbably right. Greek Polytheism, etc. should be changed to a different name. Hard to get name though. Zeus religion?

OLYMPIAN

Also, polytheism is moreoften a misnomer. Egypt and Greece and Rome weren't polytheist in any absolute sense. Rather they had polytheistic quality, and were monotheist in the sense of possessing one high God: Amen, Zeus, and Chronos, and relatively speaking. Even Hinduism is not polytheist in this same context: Brahman occupies the summit as well as a singular position of godly presence.

Nice name.
And no they were not monotheistic by any sense. Don't even try that argument. I'm sorry. Monotheistic means having one god.

and christians are polytheistic (in a sense) in my opinion (i dont mean in ANY way to be racist or offencive) with the whole 3 parts to one god, which i think was taken from a ancient europian religion if memory serves right.. ¬.¬
by the way i am NOT one of those morons who know nothing of christians so i slag them off. i grew up in a catholic town in west ireland, surrounded by christians, and have met some nice, and some not so nice...

And no they were not monotheistic by any sense. Don't even try that argument. I'm sorry. Monotheistic means having one god.

Don't even try that argument? No, I don't argue with ideologues. That's why I'm not Catholic (no offense). I didn't say the classical religions were monotheist. I said that they have both characteristics, such that they were polytheist in terms of hierarchy. Christianity is the same in the sense that the archangels, angels, and cherubim occupy a lower threshold of divine presence, and in the strictest sense of 'divine' definition, constitute a polytheistic hierarchy just as much as the classical religions. The exception being that Christians don't call the angels etc. 'gods'. But that's beside the point. The fact remains, that this word 'gods' is a culturally imposed label to the 'angels' of the Egyptian myth, and for example. Neter means 'divine being', not god. That word didn't exist in ancient Egyptian. Amen, that word you like to interpret as meaning 'so be it', is the one high God of Ancient Egypt.
Also, note the need to call the religion 'something', which gets back to my original point of religious philosophical genesis. The Egyptians didn't 'call' their religion anything. Had they been pressed for a name, they would have said its called 'reality'.

amen interpited as "so be it", or "let it be" or so it shall be", because the high god being the "alpha-omega", the one who makes all the hard desicions, the most worshipped and respected (and feared) god..
and dont forget christan saints, which can be interpeted as divine bodies on mortal soil, another aspect of the polytheistic foreground for european-christianity. christmas is only celebrated in december because it was a roman sun-god festival, and they wanted to keep the excuse to get drunk. it should, as far as historians agree, in may.
but this is a wee bit OT..

Very apropos, Quinzy - interesting. You could argue, that Tahm, or Tam, or Tem, or Tom, is the Son and the Alpha and Omega, hence its meaning of 'the One One'; and Amen, is the Father and the Zero; hence its meaning of 'the hidden One'; as its all the same in the absolute sense of One spirit, but not the same in the absolute sense of One body, or form (I don't subscribe to the Nicene Council's declaration that Jesus and God are the same body or substance, either...).

The other half of the religion could be spread to the other civs. But which is home-bread and which is the foreigner?

Perhaps close work with the other half could promote an automatic alliance (cannot go to war against eachother) or ruin relationships and inherit random war spawn between the two secte rivals.

And what about barbarian religions! and rogue merchants?

Ancient Greece! Religions are switched to worshiping Greek Gods. Research different weapons and ways to improve them. So instead of ending-up with Nukes and Corporation; you'd be researching a new poison to dip your arrows in. Maybe switch, "Great People" to, "Godly Favours" as well. Shrines could be built by workers to attract pilgrims and produce favor. Castle Walls could be errect by workers with archer towers and dungeons. Capture Level 5 enemy troops and torture them to reveal some of their secrets.

I hear anything is possible with this game.

@Nuh-Uh: yeah you're right about different meanings. But if we put it to modern english it works better.

@Quinzy: I see your argument, but do not neccesaringly agree with it.

I say we avoid language arguments and Christianity arguments for everybody's sake.

@the_sun_card: Welcome to CFC!!! What we were thinking is that the religion would split if spread to another nation. For example, you're Persia and your state religion is Islam, but you make another civ convert to Islam. Then one nation would become Suuni and the other Shiite. Then you would spread your section of the religion. It would spawn usually a hate between two nations. Also, I am now thinking that some religions do not need two sides.
About barbarian religions, I am thinking of just leaving those out completely. They are not very organized or clear. Rogue merchants is a completely different idea from religion.

Thank you for all the support for this thread. It is going a lot better than my current project.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=141174

I think it would be a bit strange to have the Aztecs develop Greek polytheism, and I mean beyond the standard Egypt-builds-Statue-of-Liberty weirdness. Couldn't we think of something more generic than that?

I think more religions, or branched religions would be great, but you have to draw the line somewhere. For the purpose of a game, you don't need more than 2 or 3 sects, and the religions added should have been very big, or had some big impact on history. Personally, I think Greek and Roman Polytheism, Zoroastrianism, Shinto, and Egyptian Polytheism would be good candidates. Also, the sect idea is good, but maybe every religion shouldn't have branches. Especially in polytheistic religions, you'd just get a bunch of little cults like the Cult of Dionysus.

I think it would be a bit strange to have the Aztecs develop Greek polytheism, and I mean beyond the standard Egypt-builds-Statue-of-Liberty weirdness. Couldn't we think of something more generic than that?

Thats what were trying to think of. The best name Ive heard for Greek polytheism is Olympiad.

I think more religions, or branched religions would be great, but you have to draw the line somewhere. For the purpose of a game, you don't need more than 2 or 3 sects, and the religions added should have been very big, or had some big impact on history. Personally, I think Greek and Roman Polytheism, Zoroastrianism, Shinto, and Egyptian Polytheism would be good candidates. Also, the sect idea is good, but maybe every religion shouldn't have branches. Especially in polytheistic religions, you'd just get a bunch of little cults like the Cult of Dionysus.

I'm thinking 2 would be the limit right now. I think this mod is going to be played on 18-person maps. Greek and Roman should be bunched together because they are basically the same thing. I like Zoroastrianism and Shintoim. I am not sure on Egyptian however. I like it. Maybe it should be main religion with the sects being Greek and Roman.

Double-posted in error. Whoops!

and christians are polytheistic (in a sense) in my opinion (i dont mean in ANY way to be racist or offencive) with the whole 3 parts to one god, which i think was taken from a ancient europian religion if memory serves right.. ¬.¬

I don't think the charge of polytheism, with regard to the Trinity, sticks (despite the traditional Muslim criticisms on this point). The doctrine of the Trinity doesn't state that there are three "parts" to one God (that would be heresy), simply that there is one God, but he is three Persons. Now, quite what that means is another thing...

Here's a link to a famous piece by Gregory of Nyssa, one of the most important theologians of the Trinity, which deals with exactly this problem, as you can see by the title, "On not three Gods" - http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-05/Npnf2-05-28.htm - It's translated into the most horribly stiff language, but you get the idea.

By the way, however one assesses the doctrine of the Trinity and the success of various theologians to explain it, I don't think there's any question of its being taken from any ancient European religions. The doctrine of the Trinity developed within Christianity, as an internal thing, from the Logos theology of the second-century Apologists to the full-blown Trinitarianism of Augustine in the fifth century. There were some parallels to contemporary Middle Platonism and Neoplatonism, of course, but I think they were really just on the surface. You can explain the emergence of Trinitarianism quite adequately in terms of existing Christian doctrines and the philosophical environment of late antiquity without needing to appeal to other religions as well.

I don't know why you say Christmas should be in May, by the way... No-one has the faintest idea what time of year Jesus was born.

Well Jesus was born around when the Romans collected taxes from its people.
If somebody could find out when that is.... we would know?

The trinity is really 3 sides of 1 person. Its not 3 people, its 3 charecteristics of God. Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

I think we should go back to discussion on what religions and sects we are going to put in.
Updated first post with new religion ideas.
Whoops, I forgot cults.

OK, apologies for going OT...

*But* it's worth pointing out that the birth narratives are the least historical part of the Gospels, and the story of the "census" in Luke is totally unhistorical. It never happened. So there's no way anyone can tell what time of year Jesus was born or what the circumstances were. Also, I'm afraid that the idea of the Trinity that you suggest - three aspects of a single person - would be heretical (technically, that is "Modalism"). They are three distinct (but inseparable) persons. That's one of the rare things that Catholics, Protestants, and Orthodox all agree on...

It's okay. Thats what different religions are for anyway.


Back on topic: What should the ancient cults be called?
I'm thinking of going like Rhye's and calling it Nordic Cults.

There were also other reasons Christianity was considered a follow-up of Greko-Roman religious tradition. With the God, Jesus, Virgin Mary, Devil, Archangel Michael and other religious icons as well as the Apostoles and other Saints slowly taking over the Pantheon. I don't think any ordinary Catholic church altar surrounded by numerous statues and icons are physically too different than a 2000 year old Roman Temple. All of the modern religious figures i mentioned perfectly fit in and fill a blank spot of the past religion. They have their exact same equivalents. Islam which is about 600 years younger than Catholicism also borrowed the same storyline and same figures same myths and didn't even bother to change the names of their own ancient deities (which i won't mention :) )

Yes, we know. I'm not mad at you. But I really want to get back at the religions, not the history of them.
I'm now thinking they should have advantages/disadvantages.

Here are the Religions that are in:
Judaism(Reformed and Not)
Christianity(Catholic and Protestant)
Islam(Suuni and Shiite)
Buddhism(Mahayana and Vajrayana)
Hinduism(Bhakti and Tantra)

Probably In:
Shintoism(State Shinto and Shrine Shinto)
Zoroastrianism(Modern-Day and Ancient)
Ancinet Polytheism (We still need a name) (Greek/Roman and Egyptian)

Borderline:
Taoism(Religious and Philosophical)
Ancient Cults(Nordic and Sami)

Definetly Not In:
Confucianism

As you can see, I found two sects for every religion that is possibly in. I used Wikipedia to find all this.

The 'Nameless' Classics:
Greek = Olympus (Heaven) provides Olympian religion - Olympianity, n.
Roman = Saturn (Kronos as Father Time) and Jupiter (Head) created an animistic/cultural amalgam, such that Jupiter, Mars, and Quirinus (pronounced QUEER'inus, deified Romulus, 1st King of Rome) formed the 'Archaic Triad'. So, you could call it the Queerian of Queerianity, but for clarity's sake, I'd call it the Triadic religion - Triadan, n. or otherwise after their ancient Winter festival Saturnalia (after Saturn), the Saturnine Religion of Saturnity
Egypt = Amenta (Heaven) provides Amenian religion - Amenity, n.

Yeah those names work. Ill update first post.

for ancient poytheism, "the Old Religion" would be the best name (or a modern version entitled wiccan, a religion formed to revive the ways of old, with modern parralells)

That might work.
Did you check out first post for names, sects, etc.?

Its interesting to note, at least at the surface level of these classical religions, is that their authors acknowledged the infinite quality of spirit (and at least in terms of etymology) with time via Chronos and Saturn, and the finite quality of mind and body with the son of man via Zeus and Jupiter. In these latter religions, the chief of the Gods is the 'rebel' out of chaos. In Egyptian, Tem is the one borne out of an only one, self begotten of Nun (or Amen) and represents the beginning and the end, the infinite and the finite, just as does Jesus within the Christian religion. So, all of Western religion, at least, holds this element of disparity between a God of infinity and a God of the finite as that which is created or manifested, but where Christianity reconciles this dichotomy through Jesus and his sacrifice.

I would like to contribute to the project. PM me.

Thank you for your offer Sam. Help is very welcome.

Also note that the Romans are the true authors of the Catholic Trinity. The trinity didn't exist in Christianity in its original form, but the trinity existed in Rome. Essentially, in terms of mechanics, they replaced Quirinus with deified Jesus.

I'd go with one being an Animist as compared to the classification of monotheist or polytheist.
Roman Animism - sects are Triadan and Saturnalian
Greek Animism - sects are Olympian and Hermetic
Egyptian Animism - sects are Amenian and Atenian

Yeah, that is true.

Make the sects of Hinduism:
Smartha and Arya Samaj...those are the well known ones anyway...

Judaism- Reform and Orthodox
Hinduism- Vaisnavism and Saivism, or Asthik and Nasthik, or any number of em. Hinduism is a thousand thousand tribal religions shoved under one british title =)
Arya Samaj is more a political group than religious...


This is an ambitious mod, but i think it's reaching a bit far

As of Hinduism, the two names I found were on Wikipedia.
Judaism will be changed.
Im sticking with polytheism.

So what do you think of religion choices now?

Im sticking with polytheism.

What that does, in terms of comparison, is make you a Judeo-Grecian Monotheist of the Christian sect. I'd call them what they are (some scholars agree with me), as they are their own religion outside the prevalent Christian definition which has become accepted as baseline. Otherwise, you bias the game to western Christian principles. For further elaboration:

Norse (Scandanavian) Animism:
Valhalla - Valhallic/Valhallan
Kalevala - Kalevalic/Kalevalan

Japanese Animism:
Shinto and whatever

Celtic Animism:
(that's a tough one...)
maybe:
Milesian - Milesic/Milesian (Heroic)
De Danann - De Danannic/De Danann (Mythic - elves, pixies, etc.)

Other than Sumerian/Egyptian/Judean theology, and other than Confucian/Taoist theosophy, cultures were Animist, which means nature worship. Monotheist and Polytheist is so broad and vague as a classification itself, that in the clear light of analysis, it really borders upon cultural prejudicial ignorance. What one should consider when analyzing a particular culture and religion are its monotheistic and its polytheistic properties. Worshipping Mary, for example, is a polytheistic trait, and ever so much more so the latter when worshipping a Trinity - as did the Romans, whom you would call Polytheist. Unfortunately, the Romans aren't here to lend clarity, but it would follow that their Triad was the 'God-Head', not unlike the Roman Catholic Trinity, and the 'lesser' Gods were those spirits, like the Christian Cherubim, who ruled over the four quarters of the Earth - as in Nature Spirits.

celtic : Tir na nOg-ian ?? :mischief:
and : Druidism (nature worship)

celtic : Tir na nOg-ian ?? :mischief:
and : Druidism (nature worship)


Yes. Much better! Good one, Quinzy. Thanks. Although, Druidism would be the priests of the Tir Na nogs.

Perhaps Druidic (mythic), and instead of Milesian, Niallic (heroic - as the name of the Chief Hero in Irish lore Niall MacEochy-Vivahain)

The interesting thing here is, when researching Irish lore, you find a wealth of information about the heroic myths, but little, if anything, about the mythic or mystic myths, so it would appear that the heroic, as a vestige of Grecian influence upon Milesian culture, carried its way to Ireland, and blended itself with the Druidic, or Tir Na Nogian (love that word!)

Whoa, I am confused. So how many cult religions do we have now?

Whoa, I am confused. So how many cult religions do we have now?

LOL. Said like a true (Roman) Catholic. Al, there are no cult religions listed here. Don't let your bias sway you. Christianity (or its natal form of Nasorean Religion) was a cult as far as the Romans were concerned. The inference being, that if one is a cult, one is a small, informal, and potentially heretical group of religiously minded fruit-bats. There's only one cult that fits that description and its not listed. Its called devil-worship, the anti-thesis of divine order.

you could put in wiccan. its (apparently) an official religion now. it could come with some late tech. it could simulate the revival of the Old Religion. speaking of which, you could put in Neo-Druidism too..

@Nuh-Uh:Yeah, probably.
I think we have a good amount of religions, now.
I'm thinking of putting advantages/disadvantages in for each religion. Also, some religion-specific buildings, wonders, units, cities, etc.

Taoism & Confucianism are out, everything else is in as of this moment.

you could put in wiccan. its (apparently) an official religion now. it could come with some late tech. it could simulate the revival of the Old Religion. speaking of which, you could put in Neo-Druidism too..

Quinzy, not wanting to step on anyone's toes, but yes, Wicca (which is actually from old-english/germanic 'wicken' (according to the 'recently' updated Webster) meaning to 'bewitch', given its colloquial implication, is like a black person calling themself a 'nigerian' with the colloquial/slang reference to 'n*gger', as in wiccan - 'trouble-maker', or 'temptress'. Its considered a religion only because you have enough books marketed to the masses pushing the austere of so-called 'witchcraft'. The druids were in a class of their own, and I'm sure would have hanged this 'cliche' coined religion out to dry.

P.S. There would be a good one for your 'cult' classification. Satanist or Wiccan sect.

What is Wiccan? I've never heard of that.

just to point out, during my studies of the religions of the world (im building an archive), i discovered a common misconception. wiccans are most definately NOT satanists in any way. the worship a godess, practise white, not black magic (at least are supposed to). they are very close to druids (and hippies) for their tree-worship, as they believe trees are one of many dwellings of the godess. just a bi of info.

alcosta: wiccan is a religion founded in the 50's to revive the ways of the Old Religion with modern parallells. they are practisers of magic and meditation and are usualy easy-going and peaceful people. (at least in my personal experience)
http://www.religioustolerance.org/witchcra.htm
go to the "history of wiccan" part

I'm sorry. I cannot use these religions in the game. I think the religions have been set. We need to start religion UUs.

Judaism
Ancient:Maccabe
Classical:???
Midevil:???
Renaissance:???
Industrial:???
Modern:Merkava(Israeli Tank)

Christianity
Ancient:???
Classical:???
Midevil:Crusader
Rennaisance:Inquisitor
Industrial:Colonial Infantry
Modern:M1 Abrams(I know its not Christian, used in predominately used in Christian countries however.)

Islam
Ancient:Berber Trader(Replaces Scout)
Classical:???
Midevil:Fanatic(Crescent-Shaped Sword)
Rennaisance:Janisarry
Industrial:AK Infantry
Modern:Al-Zarar Main Battle Tank

Buddhism
Ancient:???
Classical:???
Midevil:???
Rennasance:???
Industrial:???
Modern:???

Hinduism
Ancient:???
Classical:???
Midevil:???
Renassance:???
Industrial:Freedom Fighter
Modern:Arjun Tanks

Last Four Religions To Follow Later Tonight

Shinto
Ancient:???
Classical:???
Midevil:Samuri
Renassance:Samuri Arbequiser
Industrial:Imperial Marine
Modern:T-90(Yes its actually main tank of Japanese Army)

Zoroastrianism
Ancient:Persian Heavy Calvary
Classical:Immortal
Midevil:???
Rennasance:???
Industrial:???
Modern:???

Olympus
Ancient:Hoplite
Classical:Phalanx
Midevil:???
Rennasance:???
Industrial:Italian Infantry
Modern:Ariete

Ancient Cults
Ancient:???
Classical:North. European Spearmen
Midevil:Viking Raider
Rennasance:???
Industrial:Molitov Cocktail Soldiers
Modern:M109 Howitzer

The above 2 posts are UUs that I think will work. Some religions are not around at certain times so they have to be filled with units from modern-day countries. Changes can be/will be made and criticsm is welcome. The ??? needs help with.

just to point out, during my studies of the religions of the world (im building an archive), i discovered a common misconception. wiccans are most definately NOT satanists in any way. the worship a godess, practise white, not black magic (at least are supposed to). they are very close to druids (and hippies) for their tree-worship, as they believe trees are one of many dwellings of the godess. just a bi of info.

Not by intention, but by consequence are they closer to devil-worship than religion. First of all, no one today knows anything of the Druids per se, as there are no written records of their lore and history, so such claims are misleading and basically false from the beginning. Secondly, the emphasis upon "become a Wiccan and be an arcane magician", the use of the old english-language (not Gaelic), and the flood of GARBAGE into the mainstream book outlets about so-called magic, is enough to make anyone choke. Its an anathema. A bastardized form of the mystical lore inherent of jewish kabala and egyptian/grecian alchemy, and anything else it can get its hands on, I'm sure. Saying its not black but rather its white, is hardly the point. A true religion is based upon 'divine order' not self-service. I can worship the rocks and say I'm one with the universe, but I'm only fooling myself if the intention is anything other than selfless. Even the highest priest of God's chosen knows that they are insignificant, that its not their will, but God's will be done. But, on the other hand, if you are a "Wiccan" (only costs you 9.95 at the local bookshop!) you can leave little hate and love spells all day long. "Release your inner witch! Mystify friends and scare your neighbors" (not responsible for psychological illnesses...). Sadly sickening and potentially harmful, are my final words on the subject.

As far as UU for Zoroastrianism, I'm not sure where you pulled "Revolutionary Guard" for modern, as the Iranian "Revolutionary Guard" would be part of the ISLAMIC revolution. I think you'll have a very difficult time finding UU for each age for the various religions.

I think you should also consider an Inquisitor type unit, as has been discussed in many of the other religion threads. You should have some method of directly reducing the popularity of other religions.

As far as UU for Zoroastrianism, I'm not sure where you pulled "Revolutionary Guard" for modern, as the Iranian "Revolutionary Guard" would be part of the ISLAMIC revolution. I think you'll have a very difficult time finding UU for each age for the various religions.

I think you should also consider an Inquisitor type unit, as has been discussed in many of the other religion threads. You should have some method of directly reducing the popularity of other religions.

Yeah, I know. You caught me.:blush: I was just trying to throw something in there. I might reduce it to 2 or 3 UUs for each religion.

Thats a good idea for Inquisitor unit. It will be put in. Thank you for your input.:goodjob:

hey, i just wanted to say that im really looking forward to this mod, i especially am looking forward to the situations such as protastent V. chatholic and the such. and if i could just add a comment i like the idea of just taking current religions and dividing them into two religions, im not sure that adding whicken and satanism and all the likes would be a good idea, just cause i cant really think off hand of any civs that have actually adopted those religions, i do like the idea of having the norse cults as a religion again i like this idea and hopefully you can work out the UUs although i think there should only beone UU instead of having once for each era

hey, i just wanted to say that im really looking forward to this mod, i especially am looking forward to the situations such as protastent V. chatholic and the such. and if i could just add a comment i like the idea of just taking current religions and dividing them into two religions, im not sure that adding whicken and satanism and all the likes would be a good idea, just cause i cant really think off hand of any civs that have actually adopted those religions, i do like the idea of having the norse cults as a religion again i like this idea and hopefully you can work out the UUs although i think there should only beone UU instead of having once for each era

Thank you for your support. Dont worry i'm excludubg whicken and satanism. The UUs will probably limited down to three.:cry: I might just add some other units for kicks and giggles.

I wonder if it is possible by python to re-organise the religion menu. As i red the python allows yo to cange menus and bars positions on desktop. So re-organised menu should look like this:

Then thare is easy way to add sects and cults too. These should apear randomly or by discovering something etc.

Or even creat new fields on screen? Then religious wars are possible or even civil war for state religion?

Wow, really good idea LittleRedPoint. Thank you so much. I know I'll have to resize in game. It will be too big with 20-something religions. I like ideas of religion wars added into. As of civil wars, probably in a later edition. Depending how fast I get this done.

Great Wonder Ideas
Vatican City
The Kabba Stone
The Sacred River
Dome of the Rock
Notre Dame
Cologne Cathedral
The Parthenon(not new, but now religious)
Mt. Olympus
The Sphinx
Temple of Ra
Mount Sinai

Those are all that I can think of at the moment.
Any more? Please state them.

Wonder: Mount Sinai

Good idea. Its added to the list. Got any more?
What are those two statues that used to be in Afghansitan called?
The ones that the Taliban destroyed.

amen interpited as "so be it", or "let it be" or so it shall be", because the high god being the "alpha-omega", the one who makes all the hard desicions, the most worshipped and respected (and feared) god..
and dont forget christan saints, which can be interpeted as divine bodies on mortal soil, another aspect of the polytheistic foreground for european-christianity. christmas is only celebrated in december because it was a roman sun-god festival, and they wanted to keep the excuse to get drunk. it should, as far as historians agree, in may.
but this is a wee bit OT..


I had read that they celebrated Christmas in Dec. to mask over or snuff out the pagan holiday: winter solstace.

Also, they didn't need reasons to get drunk back then, they just drank =D

Yeah proobably. You can argue with Quizny and Nuh Uh on that one. They spent many posts doing that.

Well, that's not true at all. So much for appreciation. Remind me to save my energy when lending analysis to your tepid pursuits.

I do appreciate your help. Its just that you spent a lot of time on arguing over what Christianity "is" and how its celebrated. In fact, thats what this whole thread is. A lot of pointless arguing, including myself. So I'm not blaming you, I'm saying you're the one Rulkiewicz wants to talk about when Christmas should be celebrated.

Ouch. See, I never really researched the reason for celebrating when it's celebrated.

I didn't mean to kick the ahses. I think the main point of Christmas is, WHY, not WHEN.

Ouch. See, I never really researched the reason for celebrating when it's celebrated.

I didn't mean to kick the ahses. I think the main point of Christmas is, WHY, not WHEN.

The point of Christmas is 'being there' in heart and soul, and all of the temporal properties that entails. Of course, one cannot teach 'subjectivity' in terms of spiritual absolutes. So, as you may or may not find (young and old puppies alike), and in the course of your soul's evolution or devolution, that true appreciation of any given 'thing' is hinged upon understanding.

I do appreciate your help. Its just that you spent a lot of time on arguing over what Christianity "is" and how its celebrated. In fact, thats what this whole thread is. A lot of pointless arguing, including myself. So I'm not blaming you, I'm saying you're the one Rulkiewicz wants to talk about when Christmas should be celebrated.

(see previous post)

Arguing is a good thing, if it has a point. As a matter of fact 95% of my posts were analytical, and very little of my content was motivated by debate or counter proposal.

What can one say, but... have a nice day.

Ok, whatever. Yes, thats probably true.

It's worth pointing out that it is by no means clear that the date of Christmas was set in order to coincide with either Saturnalia or the winter solstice.

For one thing, Christmas is *not* at the winter solstice. The solstice is 21 December.

It's not at Saturnalia either. This was celebrated on 17 December on the Julian calendar, which was the solstice under that calendar. There were several other festivals around this time too - Consualia, Opalia, and Sol Invictus. Of these, Sol Invictus was on 25 December, so there could be a case for arguing that the Christians chose this date to coincide with that - although it would have made more sense, one might have thought, to choose the more important festival of Saturnalia.

John Chrysostom (writing in the fourth century) stated that 25 December was chosen because it came halfway between the two pagan festivals of Saturnalia and Kalends of January (1 Jan). I think the idea was to give the Christians something to do while everyone else was recovering from Saturnalia and preparing for Kalends.

There's also the fact that, if Jesus had been born on 25 December, he would have been circumcised on 1 January (Luke 2:21). This is a very convenient date, for obvious reasons. When Dionysius Exiguus worked out the calendar in the sixth century, he dated it from Jesus' circumcision, not from his birth (thus, according to this calendar, Jesus would have been born in 1 BC, not AD 1 - of course, he got the years wrong, but that's a completely different matter). I don't know if this was an influence upon the choice of 25 December in the first place, but it may have had something to do with it.

Oh, and Wicca has nothing to do with druidism or indeed anything much before the 1950s. Most Wiccans today are well aware of that fact and have no problem with it. Don't confuse Wiccans with either "high magicians" or witches - they are all different, though related - and of course none of them has anything whatsoever to do with Satanism. I see no reason to deny that Wicca is a religion, just because it is new. It lacks certain elements that are common to other religions, but then so does every religion - that's why they're all different. What Nuh Uh attacks is just a caricature of Wicca - which may be understandable, given the level of misunderstanding about it.

Back on-topic, with other Great Wonder ideas: Taj Mahal, Temple of Solomon, Hagia Sophia.

Hey Deity, get a nose job! (just kidding).

It was a never a subject of any of my posts, but as long as everyone is hypothesizing, my guess is that the date was chosen out of 'the spirit' of Saturnalia and the Winter Solstice, and as compared to a somewhat under the knife and in your face preoccupation with the savior's penis. But, that's just my take. I also like this website. Its light and airy...

"There have been festivals of every sort around the winter solstice going back to the Babylonians. But it was the Roman Emperor Aurelian who fixed the actual date. He called December 25th "The Birthday of the Unconquered Sun", and put it right in the middle of the feast of Saturnalia. (The Romans really knew how to have a feast: Saturnalia lasted a week.)"
- Ryan Crosby at http://www.mymerrychristmas.com/

(Not to mention he was probably pretty "happy" when he made the declaration... "But, your eminence, the Solstice was four days ago..." said the imperial advisor. "And, as you can see, four days later the Sun still stands... unconquered! Now fetch me another glass of wine, and I'll take that rare nubian tart on the left...")

If we could find out when Roman census was taken, then we could know the time of the year he was born because in the New Testament, Jesus is born in Bethleham because that is Mary and David's hometown and that is where the census was take. Then he was concieved miracuosoly on the way there and born.

Well, that census never happened. Luke claims that "the whole world" was taxed, but there is no record whatsoever of this happening. Note also that Israel was not part of the Roman empire at this time, but was technically independent, although the king, Herod, was a client ruler supported by Rome.

More importantly, even if Augustus had ordered such a census, there is no way he would have ordered everyone to travel to the home towns of their distant ancestors (Luke claims that Joseph lived in Nazareth, but he had to go to Bethlehem - a very long way way - because this was where King David had come from, and he was descended from David). Even if this were practicable, what would be the point? During censuses, people typically were ordered to stay at home, so that the officials could be clear on what they owned. Besides which, the census and travel arrangements as described are clearly impossible. Who could possibly know their ancestors that far back? Even if they did, they would have had hundreds of them! Which ancestor would be "the" one? This is especially so when you're dealing with semi-legendary national heroes like King David. How many Jews in Jesus' day do you think could trace their lineage all the way back to King David? It would be like asking all British people who are descended from King Arthur to travel to Glastonbury!

Luke's infancy narrative is therefore pure fiction. Matthew's, which is quite different, is more plausible, but there is no reason to suppose that it is any more true. Both writers were motivated by a theological desire to have Jesus come from Bethlehem, supposedly the place where the Messiah should be born; there is no reason whatsoever to suppose that Jesus was really born there. Basically, nothing is known about the circumstances of Jesus' birth or indeed anything about his life before he became involved with John the Baptist.

Note, in particular, that Matthew and Luke use different methods for claiming that Jesus was born in Bethlehem, even though he grew up in Nazareth. Luke has Mary and Joseph living in Nazareth to begin with, and invents this supposed census which implausibly makes everyone travel to the home towns of their very distant ancestors. After the census they return home. Matthew, by contrast, implies that Mary and Joseph lived in Bethlehem to start with, and left it in the face of persecution from Herod; when they return from Egypt they do not go back to Bethlehem because Herod's son Archelaus now rules it, so they move to Nazareth, ruled by Herod's other son Antipas. Obviously these devices are quite different. Matthew's has an additional theological motivation, in that it draws clear parallels between Jesus and Moses (evil tyrant ordering deaths of children, being saved by divine intervention, Egypt), which is a theme of the whole book (Jesus delivers five long speeches mirroring the five books of the Pentateuch, and so on). Obviously all this sort of stuff is a theological construct of the author rather than history.

Huh, Thats very interesting. Its my catholic school teachings telling me my story. I knew something was phishy about it. Thank you for that information.

Sometimes I have a sinister suspicion that all of history is fiction. I haven't the source handy, but recall reading an interesting analysis concerning the issue of Jesus' place of birth. The account claimed that Jesus was not from Nazareth, because Nazareth was not a city, nor town, nor hamlet. Rather, historical references associating him with Nazareth are actually making reference to a particular Jewish church and splinter group called the Nazorean sect. This group was reviled of the recognized church, and the prophet's association therewith was the real source of contention between he and the pharisees.

Well, we have proof that some parts of this story are true. We are not sure however so we cant be assured.

my personal belief is that (me being agnostic) that the bible is more of an "aesops fables", as it was made to give you guidelines on a good life, and the story are to teach you morals, not to be taken literally. the bible is basicaly: here are some stories of people who done things that were either stupid or brave. take the advice given, dont do this/do this, and you will lead a good honest healthy happy life.
the book is just guidelines, not history. they are just stories to teach. people back then were poor and simple, and did not understand, so these stories were made to teach them in a basic manner.

my personal belief is that (me being agnostic) that the bible is more of an "aesops fables", as it was made to give you guidelines on a good life, and the story are to teach you morals, not to be taken literally. the bible is basicaly: here are some stories of people who done things that were either stupid or brave. take the advice given, dont do this/do this, and you will lead a good honest healthy happy life.
the book is just guidelines, not history. they are just stories to teach. people back then were poor and simple, and did not understand, so these stories were made to teach them in a basic manner.

I believe, from both personal experience as well on a purely intellectual basis, that there is intelligent design and spirit and that these two concepts, such as they are, are not mutually exclusive. Furthmore, I believe that the Pentateuch (as well the lesser known Heptateuch), and the greater body of the Ta-Nech for that matter, are factual, and with only minor elements of distortion. This latter issue is, IMO, partially due to a fundamental difference in consciousness between the reader and the seer; and being a point upon which I will spare you further elaboration.

I can't prove to anyone that Jesus or God is real. A person may, upon their own recognizance, inspired of emotional need or intellectual induction as it may be, come to the conclusion that God exists; or, in a singularly more rare and unique instance, have God tap them on the shoulder with a not too ordinary "hi there".

Great Wonder Ideas
Vatican City
The Kabba Stone
The Sacred River
Dome of the Rock
Notre Dame
Cologne Cathedral
The Parthenon(not new, but now religious)
Mt. Olympus
The Sphinx
Temple of Ra
Mount Sinai

Ah, there's one shrine I'm trying to remember in Japan. I believe they destroy it every twenty years.

That would be the Ise Shinto shrine in Mie Prefecture.

Personally I think it's rather peculiar to put Shinto - a pretty minor and parochial religion - into the mod, whilst leaving out Confucianism - arguably the most influential system of thought in the entire world.

As a side note: I find your scenarios really appealing, Plotinus. You obviously have a semblance of mastery on their historical import, and I feel confident that an enjoyable level of detail bordering upon realistic simulation would shine through your work. Having ditched my Civ3 because I couldn't stand the combat system, I have decided to retain my Civ4 as the matter is somewhat improved and I see a lot of potential for modification. That said, do you have any Civ4 scenarios in the make? What is your position on the suitability of Civ4 for scenario and modifcation purposes?

First of all, the Bible is definetly an ethics code. No one has ever said its an account on history.
What us catholics believe is that you cant prove thet God exists, you have to have faith that he does.
Ise shrine is going in. Thank you for that informantion.
@Plotinus:Confucianism is not a religion. Its an ethics code. Shinto is personally not my first choice. I thought of something while eating my Thanksgiving Dinner tonight. What if we put in Native American beliefs.
You know, like Earth is equal to all.
It would be cool to see that modded in.

Update to Post 1, added Wonders and UUs for each religion, something we havent discussed very much.

First of all, the Bible is definetly an ethics code. No one has ever said its an account on history.
What us catholics believe is that you cant prove thet God exists, you have to have faith that he does.
Ise shrine is going in. Thank you for that informantion.
@Plotinus:Confucianism is not a religion. Its an ethics code. Shinto is personally not my first choice. I thought of something while eating my Thanksgiving Dinner tonight. What if we put in Native American beliefs.
You know, like Earth is equal to all.
It would be cool to see that modded in.

Update to Post 1, added Wonders and UUs for each religion, something we havent discussed very much.

I would argue, as per its constitution, it provides an ethics code; although, that first and foremost its an account of the greater mechanism of reality, being innately a spiritual one, operating at the furthest reaches of our awareness.

I really like the Animistic Native American religions. Especially, the Navajo and Hopi.

[Nuh Uh] Thank you for the comments! I don't have Civ IV yet so I don't exactly have any scenarios in the works for it... especially as my computer isn't beefy enough to run it, at least not yet.

I won't be doing any more scenarios for a fair old while, at least, as I'm very busy these days. I've made the two that I really wanted to (and am currently working on an update for the first). But if I were to do any for Civ IV, it would have to wait some time, because there aren't the resources yet for this game - units, leaderheads, and so on - that make a scenario really worth doing. It seems to me that Civ IV has great potential for scenario creation, but its problem is that it is so difficult for making really new graphics, and you need new graphics to make a good scenario. So it will be interesting to see what happens.

[AlCosta] There's obviously more to the Bible than just ethics - where's the ethics in, say, Judges or Chronicles? I agree that Confucianism is mostly ethics, but it's certainly far more than that, as anyone who has been in a Chinese temple will know.

By the way, the belief that God's existence cannot be proved has been condemned by the Catholic Church since the First Vatican Council. The official Catholic position is that God's existence *can* be proved. But I think that is one of those official views that most actual Catholics disagree with, and certainly virtually all Protestants seem to think that God's existence cannot be proved. I'm not sure what the typical Orthodox view is - I should think it would be something along the lines that God's existence doesn't *need* to be proved in the first place!

newgrange
big jesus statue in brasil

(i'll think of more soon)

Quizny:Good Ideas!

"kamakura no daibutsu" or "nara no daibutsu" (big buddah statues)
the Palitana temples (jainist, but could be added)
Mount Taylor (navajo holy site)
Blanca Peak (navajo)
San Francisco Peaks (navajo)
Hesperus Peak (navajo)
Lumbini (buddhist holy site)
Bodh Gayav (buddhist)
Sarnath (buddhist)
Kusinara (buddhist)

The expansion of religion in gameplay is a very interesting idea, so I just want to put in my five cents worth, although it might be not very balanced.

What about the splinter religions not being founded when a tech is discovered, but that players can decide themselves to split of the religion from the previously single religion, and your own cities would convert to the new splinter religion.

The original founder would then lose the benefits of line of sight and +1 gold for the cities in your empire, and you would get a massive penalty to diplomacy. I'm not sure whether you should then be allowed to get a shrine of yourself (as you are only a splinter), but at least you can develop a religion if you're not on the spiritual track, and it would be a nice way to elicit a war with the other player.

Welcome to CFC! Yeah, thats what is going to happen with the religions.
Quizny, thank you for those wonder ideas.

So now, does everyone want Navajo religion in? (This means taking Shinto out.)

is there a limit to religions? cos i think you should put it in a "tribal/ethnic animism" section. that way you can have voodoo and all iroquoi totem thingy and aztec "grr, i'll eat yer 'art, grr" and other native american tribal religions.

I dont think there is a limit. However, we do not want too many religions because then people will all have different religions. We will also have to re-size some religion boxes.
Some choices right now for Native American religions:
Aztec
Navajo
Iroquois
Voodoo
I was personally thinking of two choices, North American and Voodoo.

Voodoo is hardly native American, being a combination of West African religion and Roman Catholicism...

I was thinking of one of those tribal religions in the Amazon.
Voodoo was the best word I could put on it.

So are the two Native Religions Aztec and Navajo?

they'de be the best ones i'd say.

Anybody got names for them?
They're not very easy to name because they're not widespread religions.

navajo is well, Navajo
it actuall might be better to have Mayan religion, as that was thr father or the aztecs.
name-wise i'd call it Tenochian

Why Tenochian?
What are the differences in the beliefs between the Aztecs and the Mayans?

well the aztecs basically ripped off the mayan religion. and Tenocian because of the prophet tenoch, who founded the city of Tenochtitilan. he was said to be guided by the gods into a swamp and told to probe the earth until you find the spot picked by the gods.

Oh yeah, I remember that story from History class. Combining them into one is what I am doing with Olympus. Roman mythology is ripped off from Greek mythology so I combined them into one and named it after the first.
Updated first page with Native American religions. Will update wonders tonight.
Any new ideas for new religion wonders, UUs?

i gave you the 4 Navajo holy mountains already.
and for Tenochian, i'll say "The Avenue of The Dead", and "Lake Texcoco".
UU, tlaminani=(archer), tlatepozhuiani=(axe-wielder,) matlequiquizoani=(arquebusier), tlacochcalcatl=(commanding general), nonotzale=(wise one),
cuauhtli=(eagle warrior), pixeque=(guardian) and finaly, tlahuitztli=(war-device)

Yeah I know, they'll be put in. Right now, Im supposed to be doing my homework. As of the UUs, they would be good except right now I'm working under the theory that we're using one UU per age to balance gameplay.

ok, use archer, eagle wrrior, guardian, arquebusier and war device (as a kind of tank?)

yeah maybe have Native American rifleman as industrial.
What does a war device look like? And Guardian?

it doesnt look like anything. those are nahuatl words (lingo of the aztecs)
make them look as you want, so long as they are semi-aztec/mayan/olmec/toltec/zapotec looking.

Its going to take a while for me to make units. I need to find a good, free studio creator. It could also be very cheap pricewise. The thing with putting this in would be, am I fantasizing this. I'm trying to stay away from making this fantasy. Im into the historical kind-of-stuff.

well the aztec religion is gone now, so any modern units are non-existant anyways. so why not "pretend" that they have a "war-device" tank?

i know. But if I could put in a modern unit from the country of origin. I'm leaning towards puting in that War Device. Maybe a tank with a Mexican flag hanging from the back and its machinegunner on top could be wearing a sombrero.

perfect. do you want others? "tlazochimalli" means "expencive shield" so maybe another type of tank for that one?

no, no i got an industrial. I think I need a middle ages one and a Rennasance one. An idea could be the Aztecs who fought Cortez in his invasion. I dont know what weapons they used.

You know what I just realized. By taking out Shinto, we dont have any East Asian religions. Are you guys fine with this?

Okay now completing UUs.
We really need some more.
Or we can go with 5 or 3 per religion?

Does anybody have suggestions?
This is your time to get whatever unit you want in the game.

Christianity

Modern:M1 Abrams(I know its not Christian, used in predominately used in Christian countries however.)

This is an OT remark, but I simply must jump in here coz I find it amusing you should say that, since the M1 Abrams is used by more Muslim countries than by Christian countries. :p The former being Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Kuwait, while its Western users are limited only to US of A and Australia.

yes, thats true. But, do you have a better idea?

I found a definite answer to our debate on the date of Jesus' birth.

I was wrong.

I go to a Catholic school in Washington D.C., then we began talking about the 6 holy days and I saw my chance.

Heres what Fr. Gerald O'Connor said about the date of Christmas, "There is no way we can tell when Jesus was born. We celebrate (Jesus' birth) Christmas on December 25th because we wanted to get rid of a Pagan festival that involved a super-being."

So you guys were right, I was wrong.

Now, lets get back to unit ideas, wonder ideas, and improvement ideas. (Something we haven't worked on yet.)

I found a definite answer to our debate on the date of Jesus' birth.

I was wrong.

I go to a Catholic school in Washington D.C., then we began talking about the 6 holy days and I saw my chance.

Heres what Fr. Gerald O'Connor said about the date of Christmas,

So you guys were right, I was wrong.



Well if Fr. Gerald says that's the truth, then it must be right, right?

So, you are a naive teenager building a mod over religion, and when #1 you don't have comprehensive knowledge of the subject #2 a cultural and educational bias apparently prevents you from expanding your scope and accepting/benefiting from the constructive criticism of others.

At least you have the creative vein, but I suggest you try thinking outside of the box. See Dead Poets Society, "Gather ye rose-buds while ye may... (free thinkers)".

Note: Olympus is a mountain. Olympic or Olympian is an adjective. Also, when the very culture you dismiss as 'copy-cats' are the founders of your particular notion of Christianity (I disbelieve its overall import, but believe in Christ, btw, not that it matters much to me), you might give them more credence. The Romans were great organizers, which means that they already had a clear understanding of advanced concepts even if lacking perhaps at some level with regard to the creative spark. One principle that they held from the beginning, and that the other cultures appear to be void of, is the concept of the trinary disposition to the God-head which may have ancient Egyptian overtones. So, being an amalgam of something more than Greek, I wouldn't be so fast to lump it as Olympian.

Correction:I am not religious. I have little or no bias.
I definetly know what I am talking about. You really need to stop thinking about teenagers as if they are lazy piece-of-craps. A lot of them could be smarter than you.
I actually put some time into researching this.
I did accept construcitive criticism into making this!!!
Olympus, is the main point behind this religion. Greek gods lived there. It is the best name we have found so far but if you have a better one, please suggest it. Anyway if we called it Greek Polytheism, how weird would it sound if the Aztecs founded Greek Polytheism.

Well if Fr. Gerald says that's the truth, then it must be right, right?

In this particular case, yes. Scheduling Christmas during the winter solstice was nothing more than a bit of religious imperialism.

So, you are a naive teenager building a mod over religion

"Naive" and "teenager" are usually redundant terms; unfortunately so are "naive" and "adult".

you don't have comprehensive knowledge of the subject

Most practitioners don't have anything like a comprehensive knowledge concerning their own religion, much less the beliefs of others. But I don't see what that has to do with constructing a mod in a game.

a cultural and educational bias apparently prevents you from expanding your scope and accepting/benefiting from the constructive criticism of others

Seems to me that he's doing just that, but decided to check the information with a source he trusts rather than some faceless voice on the net. That's just plain smart, considering that 90% of the information you encounter in this medium is either partly or completely horse****. And usually the surer the speaker is, the more likely that he's an idiot pulling his 'facts' straight from his ass.

Max

In this particular case, yes. Scheduling Christmas during the winter solstice was nothing more than a bit of religious imperialism...


LOL, Max.

#1 I wasn't insulting just stating the facts. Btw, naivity and adolescence aren't necessarily redundant, and surely aren't insulting (if anything, neutral with the possibility of being complemetary by my standards). Naivity surely depends mostly upon the subject matter and the experience at hand.

#2 I was a previous advocate of said Fr. Gerald's position, and therefore I am following up on OUR conversation.

#3 Developing games for tots (not that this is one) especially and adults should lend some educational and certainly, when dealing with complex subjects, factual element at least bordering upon mastery over the subject. The idea that games are pointless and meaningless outlets to take up your free-time is a rather naive and unprogressive view, IMO.

#4 When it comes to actually being insulting, I don't beat around the bush (unlike you) while maintaining some pompous air of intellectual superiority. I think your head is way up your arse on this one.

So are you saying that I don't understand this game because I'm not 21?
Thats just being a teenageist. Like racist, but with teenage put for race.
You really need to stop thinking with bias.

So are you saying that I don't understand this game because I'm not 21?
Thats just being a teenageist. Like racist, but with teenage put for race.
You really need to stop thinking with bias.

Maybe Max is, as he thinks naivity, or even ignorance for a subject, is synonymous with teenager. I was just making note that you are a teenager being indoctrinated by a specific 'school' of thought, and which in my view, may mean that you are lacking in analytical discipline - "true open-mindedness".

At least, that is what you have demonstrated to me. Even if your Mod was invested of professionalism, I still wouldn't play it. I've just been lending 'constructive criticism'.

Okay then dont play it. Thank you for the constructive criticism.

Nuh Uh, if you think that going to a Catholic school is equivalent to being "indoctrinated by a specific 'school' of thought", and that anyone who has been through this must be so lacking in analytical skills that you daren't play any mod they make, then I don't call that particularly constructive. I think AlCosta has been perfectly willing to listen to what other people have said on this thread, and your sudden and inexplicable outburst against him (coming after a post in which he said he realised he'd been wrong on something) was completely unjustified.

That's fine. You can think that. I find that any subject matter beyond that which is quantitatively/mathematically based is subject to perspective and opinion. And, no if you must know, I don't base my opinion that Al Costa is not competent for Mod making solely upon his educational background. It may indeed be a very fine school.

Overall, its my view that he should work on the weaknesses I have observed, and while you may think that is harsh or insulting or unfounded, its not meant to be any of the above. If given viability, it simply is.

One thing you might take into account is I believe 2K/Firaxis is incompetent, so its not a subject that I am willing to give a lot of breathing room to.

Then why do you think I am incompetent?
My education has nothing to do with Civ.

#1 I wasn't insulting just stating the facts.

Yeah, right. Pull the other finger.

Btw, naivity and adolescence aren't necessarily redundant

Which is the corollary to what I said. Apparently a solid comprehension of the English language isn't part of your vast skillset. If you somehow missed what I'm alluding to, try wrapping that enormous brain of yours around the word "usually". Feel free to look it up, if you have to.

Developing games for tots (not that this is one) especially and adults should lend some educational and certainly, when dealing with complex subjects, factual element at least bordering upon mastery over the subject.

I'll remember that the next time I fire up Doom or Half-Life or Carmageddon. I suppose there's some mastery over the topics of demonic infestation, interdimensional alien invasion, or splattering people across the hood of my car that I've missed in those games. Who'da thunk?

The idea that games are pointless and meaningless outlets to take up your free-time is a rather naive and unprogressive view, IMO.

Well, I'm not egotistical enough to believe that I'm "progressive" in any way, shape or form. I'll leave that one up to you, and gladly.

When it comes to actually being insulting, I don't beat around the bush (unlike you) while maintaining some pompous air of intellectual superiority. I think your head is way up your arse on this one.

Dear christ, and you call me pompous. What an ass****. Was that direct enough for you, or do you need me to put a severed horse's head in your bed?

Here, my point is very, very simple. Even you can grasp it, I think: lay off the kid. He's doing fine. And it's just a bloody mod for a bloody game. As someone else so rightly pointed out, fluff - nothing more. Pull your knickers out of your ass-crack and let the guy do his thing.

Max

Guys, it's a mod, not a historical thesis on the history and effects of religion. Too much nit picking and no real construction.

Two words in a civilipedia description do nothing to help a mod.

The game could have said that the Hagia Sofia was built by extraterrestrials to make us believe in a fictional Roman Empire and most people would never have noticed.

Now, while this may have some slight bearing on gameplay, most of this is done with balance but uniqueness in mind. the problem is that there is so much complaining over his religious knowledge and no suggestions for an actual better mod.

I apologize if I seem quick to get in here, but I prefer having as many mods constructed as possible, because the beauty of mods is that this one could be edited by anyone with more info to be better and yet not perfectly historical. So, let him make the base and let those who wish pick out the details.

Thank you, I have been waiting for someone on this.
The people who are arguing are the ones who arent even playing the mod.
Anyway back to the mod, we need a Christian tank!
Does anybody have an idea.
Quizny, your help wouldbe appreciated.
We were pretty good before.

Why not simply have the Christian tank be a mechanized infantry form of the modern swiss guard.

Yeah, right. Pull the other finger.



Which is the corollary to what I said. Apparently a solid comprehension of the English language isn't part of your vast skillset. If you somehow missed what I'm alluding to, try wrapping that enormous brain of yours around the word "usually". Feel free to look it up, if you have to.



I'll remember that the next time I fire up Doom or Half-Life or Carmageddon. I suppose there's some mastery over the topics of demonic infestation, interdimensional alien invasion, or splattering people across the hood of my car that I've missed in those games. Who'da thunk?



Well, I'm not egotistical enough to believe that I'm "progressive" in any way, shape or form. I'll leave that one up to you, and gladly.



Dear christ, and you call me pompous. What an ass****. Was that direct enough for you, or do you need me to put a severed horse's head in your bed?

Here, my point is very, very simple. Even you can grasp it, I think: lay off the kid. He's doing fine. And it's just a bloody mod for a bloody game. As someone else so rightly pointed out, fluff - nothing more. Pull your knickers out of your ass-crack and let the guy do his thing.

Max


Boy, you really are reaching to justify being a truly bombastic flamer. I would surmise, given the effort to obfuscate the premise of my post (not yours, grubby), that you have a problem with my honest opinion 2k/Firaxis is incompetent at game design. Well, in general, I don't apologize for the fact that sorely 5% or less of the world is actually sane and/or lucid, and that poorly executed games, such as Civ IMO, attempt to capitalize upon the world's weakness. Nor do I in anyway consider your affect (which constitutes the other 95% of the community) in anyway acceptable or constructive. In short, you are like a parasite on the face of clarity, sticking your own ass out for the whole world to see; and, don't be surprised if you find your cavity filled with someone's foot someday, and I have no problem filling that capacity. As a matter of fact, if you make another death threat to me, you can be sure that I will be contacting the FBI. I don't play those games, BUBBA.

And, Al Costa, it surely shouldn't be a concern of yours, but other people's opinion of your work is hardly important. Its your own sense of integrity and accomplishment that matters. And, although I don't make issue of it, nor lend it any significance, I wouldn't have paid any attention to your post from the beginning if I didn't think it had merit and potential. Such is my position at this point with Civ.

Now, I'll let you focus (I wouldn't have said another word were it not for the anal patrol).

Guys, it's a mod, not a historical thesis on the history and effects of religion. Too much nit picking and no real construction.

Two words in a civilipedia description do nothing to help a mod.

The game could have said that the Hagia Sofia was built by extraterrestrials to make us believe in a fictional Roman Empire and most people would never have noticed.

Now, while this may have some slight bearing on gameplay, most of this is done with balance but uniqueness in mind. the problem is that there is so much complaining over his religious knowledge and no suggestions for an actual better mod.

I apologize if I seem quick to get in here, but I prefer having as many mods constructed as possible, because the beauty of mods is that this one could be edited by anyone with more info to be better and yet not perfectly historical. So, let him make the base and let those who wish pick out the details.

No, its religion and society, and with that, responsibility; being another capacity in which Firaxis/2K has been sorely negligent, IMO.

The FourGuardian, good idea for using the swiss army. I think a lot of them will be implemented.

:bump:
Back to top!
UUs updated, now filled. I know a lot of them suck, but thats why we have discussion! Any comments/suggestions?
We still need lots of wonder ideas!

There are far more than two versions of Christianity - there's Catholic, Protestant, Chalcedonian Orthodox, non-Chalcedonian Orthodox, Church of the East...
Don't forget Latvian Orthodox. George Costanza was much impressed with them. Let us contemplate his words of wisdom,
"I think the hats. The hat convey that solemn religious look you want in a faith. Very pious."

I think this mod idea died, but it will be in one of my bigger mods.

What about us Conservitive Jews?

Look this mod is dead. It had a heart attack. It's over, I don't know why it was bumped in the first place.

@AlCosta15

I think your idea is great. I can help you with Zoroastranism. I do research about this religion now since many many years and know truly the whole concept of Cosmic Dualism (traditional) and the new modern Zoroastriansm that is based on Zarathustra's own hymns in Gatha (reformist).

I can help you even with small wonders of this religion like the "Ka'beye Zartosht" here is 3D (Move to left a bit)
http://www.world-heritage-tour.org/midEast/ir/persepolis/kabaZartosht.html

I will make my mind about some modern units if you wish.

As an Iranian I am not only typically familiar with Zoroastrianism but also with Shiite Islam and can help you there too.

Just don't give up dude only because no one has recently postet anything. December is the holiday month and most people are away. Soon everyone will be back. :)

Regards
Houman

@AlCosta15

I think your idea is great. I can help you with Zoroastranism. I do research about this religion now since many many years and know truly the whole concept of Cosmic Dualism (traditional) and the new modern Zoroastriansm that is based on Zarathustra's own hymns in Gatha (reformist).

I can help you even with small wonders of this religion like the "Ka'beye Zartosht" here is 3D (Move to left a bit)
http://www.world-heritage-tour.org/midEast/ir/persepolis/kabaZartosht.html

I will make my mind about some modern units if you wish.

As an Iranian I am not only typically familiar with Zoroastrianism but also with Shiite Islam and can help you there too.

Just don't give up dude only because no one has recently postet anything. December is the holiday month and most people are away. Soon everyone will be back. :)

Regards
Houman


Actually, I never found that I had enough interest to make this mod. It will be in a future mod of mine;) (Secret Project at Another Site) Anyway, anybody who wants to can take this project up.

Is this secret project the 65-Civ Mod?

Nope.
That project isn't very secret.

I hadnt time to read the whole ideas though but it sounds interesting, I dont know if this been already suggested but I think the German trench infantry is based on WWI, right? (Because alot of Jews volunteered for the German Imperial Army during WWI to fight against the French and the Romanov's) But that shouldnt be Renaisaince but Industrial and should be named Kaiserwacht (Emperor's Royal Guard). For Renaissance, I would go for a Revolutionary (based on French Revolution), note that its much more Post-Renaissaince but I think it works.

Also, why native american religions, they didnt play a role in anything, I would consider Asatru and African religions. Asatru should replace ancient cults. Also, its shouldnt be British colonial infantry, just Colonial infantry!

Asatru:
Ancient: Viking Warrior
Classic: Longboat
Medieval: Beserker
Renaissaince: Danish Man 'o War
Industrial: Norwegian Infantry
Modern: Occult Priest

And colonial infantry for Christianity?, common, lets say a Nazi-Collabrator!

Thank you for those, but I quit production on this mod.

I am sure some1 is willing to take these ideas for this mod!

Hopefully!