I'm happy to take over the reins from my esteemed predecessors.

Please offer your thoughts on techs, units, scout movements and worker duties here.

I'd like to play the turns on Wednesday morning central US time so that we won't get bogged down with those of you with holiday plans. I'll post the save and log immediately following the turn play Wednesday morning.

Cheers!

Copied over from the last thread... my reply in progress...

I don't know why my thinking on this has changed in Civ IV, but I really don't like to halt my growth this early. I tend to build my defender, build my military escort and *then* when you're bigger and with more production build your settler. I subsequently build my worker to road between the 2 towns while the new town grows and builds barracks (half cost to us) to churn out my military.


That would be a little over the top IMO. When assuming we build a defender first we should start on building a worker who can help building the first settler by chopping... I would churn out units to push exloration and defense until we get BW (or we are shortly in front of getting BW), therefore start the worker right after growing before we get BW would be the best choice, IMO. I definitely would go for a settler when already having a worker...

Lastly, I'm a proponent of Slavery (the civic in the game; not the real practice) as the upkeep is also low and the ability to Pop Rush a defender can make or break you (Pop rushing does not seem to cost you the shields progress you had made as it did in Civ III, so you can even change your production cue to a better unit or building).

I'm against changing to slavery. In my games it's pointless and I would rather avoid the anarchy-phase. We should think about changing civics when necessary but not right away...
Especially when building units for exploration and other purposes we can wait with slavery, if later it will become necessery...


In my games I've been starting off with exploration unit, defender, escort, settler, worker. There is no risking an unprotected settler any more, and depending on starting techs it could be 20 turns before a worker would have anything useful to do. In this game (vs Civ3) there is no point in having a worker until the necessary tech is learned. Also you can't chop until either BW or IW is learned, because your workers don't have axes until then.

Pop rushing for the purpose that Starbolt mentioned is good, if you need a quick defender against an unexpected attack, but you've got to be very close to being able to win against that attack already. I have found it useful when there is a city which is food rich and hammer (I keep thinking shield ;) ) poor, and you need cultural expansion to get to some hammer plots (tiles).

Copied over from the last thread... my reply in progress...


In my games I've been starting off with exploration unit, defender, escort, settler, worker. There is no risking an unprotected settler any more, and depending on starting techs it could be 20 turns before a worker would have anything useful to do. In this game (vs Civ3) there is no point in having a worker until the necessary tech is learned. Also you can't chop until either BW or IW is learned, because your workers don't have axes until then.

Pop rushing for the purpose that Starbolt mentioned is good, if you need a quick defender against an unexpected attack, but you've got to be very close to being able to win against that attack already. I have found it useful when there is a city which is food rich and hammer (I keep thinking shield ;) ) poor, and you need cultural expansion to get to some hammer plots (tiles).

Sorry, but this time I'm confused: Am I right assuming that generally you second my opinion on how to proceed?? :D
Otherwise please clarify... :confused:

when doing your building list, you don't have a worker for chopping. Isn't that a drawback?? Maybe later I miss those "hammering" (shields!!! :goodjob: ) forrests (sawmill!! :) )?!?

I advocate Animal Husbandry after Bronze Working.

More thoughts to come later.

-the Wolf

I agree with the Wolf that Animal Husbandry should be a priority provided we can find some caballi - if Saladin's got them and decides to get arsey then we're in serious trouble.

We should explore the northern area as well. Our western scout has run into Saladin's borders and really has nowhere left to go, while the eastern scout can handle the smallish area left on that side of the continent. So I'd suggest having the western scout move back towards Karakorum, then turn north while the eastern scout skirts Saladin's borders and maps out the southern region.

As for the worker, exploiting those elephants is important. Afterwards, he has little to do as we can't get at the bananas until we have Calendar, so he should be plopping Cottages down on empty tiles.

Production-wise, getting some Archers out the door is more important than a Settler right now. Let's get Karakorum up to a decent size before we halt its growth again.

Sorry, but this time I'm confused: Am I right assuming that generally you second my opinion on how to proceed?? :D
Otherwise please clarify... :confused:

when doing your building list, you don't have a worker for chopping. Isn't that a drawback?? Maybe later I miss those "hammering" (shields!!! :goodjob: ) forrests (sawmill!! :) )?!?

Maybe... ;) Getting :confused: on who is advocating what. :D

Chopping actually hurts in the long run, see the Cuban Isolationists thread in the SG forum. If you chop a forest over grass, the hammers per turn are gone with no good way to get them back until much later in the game. In general terms the only time it is better to chop than it is to improve a non-forest tile is when the forested one is the only one with fresh water and you need food. (there might be situations where the chop provides improvement over the general case of course)

Poop - you guys cross-posted on me. Here's a link to my followup thinking:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=3350070&postcount=14

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I haven't loaded the save, yet (at work), but I'm guessing our inventory is 1 size 3 city, 2 scouts, archer in the build queue, no warriors, and 1 worker? See my linked notes about building expansion units... I'm not sure if the DP's math or my math is off (probably me since I don't have the game up right now).

I'm leaning towards western expansion as a buffer against Arabia/Egypt expansion and because I see a nice mix of workable hill/grassland tiles. Northwest is also a possibility due to the lake and river up that way.

Expanding to the east towards the marble/coast is problematic because of the jungle (need Ironworking) and probably premature since we don't need that resource, yet.

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Going forward...

A settler is our next priority. We have to build a town next to whatever resource we choose to exploit.

Animal Husbandry is probably correct. We're basically speculating we can find the horses and then at least chariots are available (I assume we have The Wheel?).

I'd like to toss out these options, though:

1) Writing - if we produce a settler/worker, what's our next build? Barracks or more military? There's definitely a saturation point at which additional units do nothing other than stand around. I'd like to get some culture out there, particularly in our start up city (which will probably start with a defending unit anyway).

It also opens up Alphabet which would allow us to trade and backfill techs we skipped. Lastly, it makes possible a rush for Literature/Music which provides Great Library and a free artist for a culture bomb as part of our expansion. ~2500 culture can cripple an expanding neighbor and quickly flip a fledgling city. Even the Artist Super Specialist can provide this benefit over time.

2) Mysticism - obelisks might be a good early expansion tool and if we pursue Alphabet, we'll need to know it in order to get value on tech trading, since we already know our neighbors are focusing upon religious techs.

3) Fishing/Sailing. We're seeing enough water that we should consider working water tiles for growth/commerce. Growing in three directions (2 apparently unopposed so far), this will be a valuable growth tool.

Hi all, I'm a newb to the demogame but I've been looking closely at the developement, and would just like to give an opinion of what I would like to see happening.

I think we should make a camp on the elephants once the farm is done, and start on a settler after the archer. Then I'd like to see the worker chop the forest directly to the left of the elephants, which is outside the city square. That way we get the settler quicker, and I just love chopping :D .

I also think the warrior should go and scout to the north when the archer is built, I doubt any attacks will come this early on noble difificulty that this archer cannot handle.

As for science I agree with animal husbandry, but we must find horses! And I think the south scout should continue west, while the north scout should go towards the big black part in the northeast (middle-ish).

As this is my first post in a demogame, be easy on me, I just had to throw out some ideas and try to participate! :goodjob:

Good luck to you Piparoo!!

IMPROVEMENTS: Camp the elephants for extra hammers, then start growing cottages.

RESEARCH: Learn Writing after Bronze Working, then Alphabet. My reasoning:
-Once we learn Alphabet, we can trade techs; one giant tech for a bunch of little techs (I'd suggest Fishing, Masonry & Mysticism) would set the stage for a Mathematics -> Construction run, which would give us...
War Elephants! The only mounted unit we can rely on getting right now.
-The Masonry trade would let us quarry marble as well.
-Mathematics would also set us up for Calendar (to build the banana plantation) and Literature -> Music (to get that Great Artist).
-We would be set up to grab either Taoism or Confucianism.

BUILDING:
Granary, Archer (to protect our eventual settler)

TROOPS:
Move our western scouts back to explore our Northern borders. Discover what's there before we decide in which direction to expand.

Excellent thoughts so far and welcome to the fray Cosmic_Fist!

Update:

Animal Husbandry seems to be, overwhelmingly, the next suggested tech. As far as further out-I would go for fishing/sailing but with a map this small that might be foolish.

Scouts-to the north and east

Worker-there seems to be agreement about building a camp on the elephants for the ivory. Beyond that, *Satis suggests cottages. Is that acceptable?

Build Queue-Are we in agreement that it should be warrior escort and then settler?

Karakorum production- is everyone satisfied with the tiles being worked? What is your preference once the city grows to size 4?

Cheers!

Why animal husbandry? I must ask the public this! What good is it without horses? A push to the Alphabet would let us trade for it when we find horses and bring us closer to Elephant Riders, the one mounted unit we know we can make!

Scouts: Yes

Cottages: Yes. With close access to two food sources, there shouldn't be a single farm around Karakorum.

Build Queue: Only if the escort is an archer instead of a warrior. Warriors are becoming obsolete fast, and the extra build turn is worth +125% city defense over a warrior.

Production: The next tile should be a cottage grassland. It will produce less than the lake tiles for only 10 turns, then it will equal and eventually surpass them!

One thing which has been extremely annoying to me so far is that each game I've played about half the opponents refuse to trade any tech at all with me. This seems to make it much harder to gamble on getting a big tech first and then trading it for a bunch of other ones.

worker's not been produced yet, as well, right??? I strongly think you should wait for right after a growth before starting on worker - maybe even postpone already begun construction of warrior-escort.

Settler's fine then... So's all the rest! :goodjob: Very good so far from everyone involved I think. :)

Why animal husbandry? I must ask the public this! What good is it without horses? A push to the Alphabet would let us trade for it when we find horses and bring us closer to Elephant Riders, the one mounted unit we know we can make!

Build Queue: Only if the escort is an archer instead of a warrior. Warriors are becoming obsolete fast, and the extra build turn is worth +125% city defense over a warrior.


Mike,
You make some very persuavive points here. I suppose the thinking is that "we're bound to find horses eventually". Obtaining the Keshik quickly has been an important part of strategy thus far. I'm willing to stick with it for a few more turns while our scouts continue to reveal the map. What are your thoughts?

I agree with you about the archer instead of warrior. This is how I suggest we proceed with build queue then- archer then settler.

Stilgar08 I'm not quite sure I understand your post but we do have a worker already if that's what you're wondering. He's working on the corn right now.

Cheers!

Poop - you guys cross-posted on me. Here's a link to my followup thinking:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=3350070&postcount=14

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I'm not sure if the DP's math or my math is off (probably me since I don't have the game up right now).


Sorry for the self-bump... *MY* math is off.

The manual presents a different cost structure than the game does. My assumption is that QUICK mode has reduced the costs to 2/3 (warrior costs 10 instead of 15) at the expense of more turns. The theories are valid, but the details are off.

Why animal husbandry? I must ask the public this! What good is it without horses? A push to the Alphabet would let us trade for it when we find horses and bring us closer to Elephant Riders, the one mounted unit we know we can make!


Good question.

At Noble level, I've had a lot of success getting to Music first (I'm a culture freak and I like Great Library en route; is this a Marble wonder?), so I think the push to Alphabet is valid. The free Great Artist is worth ~12 culture / turn and offers aother benefits as a super specialist, so this is the equivalent of a Wonder without the build time (simply brilliant in the early game). I often backfill Drama for Theaters, before pursuing another track (like Liberalism).

However, are war elephants *that* much better than Swordsmen/Axemen/Macemen? Iron-Working is much closer than Construction and both units have movement 1.

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I advocate Animal Husbandry because it puts you 1 step away from Horseback-Riding in the event that horses show up, but more importantly it gives you access to farms in the event that no horses are available. Farms will allow us to exploit +health resources as they become available.

After AH, I like the Alphabet track, but Fishing/Saiing appeals to me. If we go Writing/Alphabet, I like Mysticism next so that we can trade for either/both religion tracks instead of only having the lvl 1 techs available and not getting value for a good tech.

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FWIW - In future game strategy, I think early pottery research is premature. I feel that initial worker tasks should be connecting cities and resources and those beakers would be better spent towards a goal. Another poster had advocated a blitz towards Monotheism and one of the reasons I rebutted that choice was the fact we'd already lost beakers to Pottery. Had we invested in Mysticism instead, we might have had a reasonable shot IMO.

Scouts: Yes


Sure. No objection to whatever exposes territory. I advocate some nearby exploration as a priority for military units as they become available to permit our scouts to range as far as possible before culture borders close off such reconnaissance.


Cottages: Yes. With close access to two food sources, there shouldn't be a single farm around Karakorum.

Build Queue: Only if the escort is an archer instead of a warrior. Warriors are becoming obsolete fast, and the extra build turn is worth +125% city defense over a warrior.


Yes. I'd avoid forest shopping because we need easy access to these shields in the early-mid-game. Only one mine available to the SW.


Production: The next tile should be a cottage grassland. It will produce less than the lake tiles for only 10 turns, then it will equal and eventually surpass them!


Set up Corn, Elephants, then grassland cottages.

War elephants are somewhat stronger than swords / axemen but not excessively so because they don't get some bonuses which are available to other units. They do compensate for not having any high strength units, in the unlikely event you have elephants but not iron or copper. Spearmen and archers have switched roles in Civ4, with spears being better at offense and archers being better on defense, all other things being equal. Since you can get spears with copper only they are an emergency backup plan if you don't have iron to get axes and swords. Horse archers are strong against catapults.

The bottom line seems to be the strongest offensive move, if you can afford to wait, is to maybe have a stack of 2 or even 3 units of each type (swords, axes, horse archers, archers, cats, spears) and maybe even more cats. I've been using 6 cats on city offensives and they reliably eliminate the city defensive bonus and then take most of the units down to half strength, after which the regular units can clean up. The above is obviously vs. similar strength defenders.

Will there be a chat, Piparoo?

-the Wolf

Will there be a chat, Piparoo?

-the Wolf

Not likely this time around as I'll be playing the turns, posting the save and then quickly heading out to visit family. But next time around I definitely want a turn chat!

Cheers!

Turn log and save to follow. To avoid confusion. The scout starting on the upper left will be known as scout 1. The scout on the lower right will be known as Elvis, wait no he'll be scout 2.

3000BC Piparoo takes over for *Satis

2950 Scout 2 moves NW

2900 Worker finishes corn improvement and moves to elephants. Scout 2 pops hut for 32 gold. Scout 1 moves NE.

2850 Wolves spotted SW of scout 2. Worker begins elephant camp improvement. Archer complete. Karakorum begins production on another archer to escort eventual settler.

2800 Nothing to see here. Scout 2 moves W.

2750 Scout 1 moves NE. Horses spotted NW of Karakorum!! Scout 2 moves W.

2700 Bronze Working completed. Animal husbandry begun. Slavery instituted. Lions spotted N of Scout 1. Lion attacks scout 1. scout 1 takes some damage but defeats lions. Archer completed. Production of Settler begun. Worker completes elephant camp and moves to construct cottage.

2650 Scout 1 begins to heal. Scout 2 heads N.

2600 Judaism founded in a distant land. Worker begins construction of cottage.

2550 Piparoo steps down as overlord. Bows before wcil our next turn player.

Cheers! and happy thanksgiving for those of you in the states.

PS Karakorum also grew to size 5 in there but I forget when.

All right then; Let's see what I can do as the Supreme Jujuba!

Turn log and save to follow. To avoid confusion. The scout starting on the upper left will be known as scout 1. The scout on the lower right will be known as Elvis, wait no he'll be scout 2.

Since units can be named individually, I strongly suggest we do so. (How-to: Click on the name "Scout" on the unit panel on the left buttom corner of the screen, a rename unit dialog will pop up.)