Hi All -

We live close to San Francisco, so we picked up a copy of Civ3 for Mac at MacWorld. LOVE it! However, it is alarmingly slow compared to previous versions of Civ. Does anyone else have this issue? Are there steps I can take to improve the performance? (For instance, I tried turning the animations off to boost performance -- but that didn't work, because the animations didn't turn off, despite the fact that I "unchecked" 'em in prefs.)

Thanks!
Kate

UPDATE to new readers: Turn off Quartz text to significantly improve performance. To turn off Quartz text, hold down the command key while you launch app by double-clicking on its icon. Then, deselect the option to use Quartz to process text. This caused a tremendous boost in performance -- THANK YOU to all the people who responded to my post.

A couple of questions, Kate. What kind of hardware are you running the game on and are you using OS 8.6, 9, X (10.0.4) or X (10.1)? MacSoft's system requirements are:

· MacOS 8.6 or higher or MacOS 10.0.4 or higher
· 300MHz iMac G3 or better (500MHz preferred)
· 64M RAM for the classic MacOS (96M preferred), 128M for MacOS X
· 500MB Hard disk space (650MB preferred)

I think these are really quite a bit understated. I have never seen a game that runs well at the minimum recommended MHz and NOTHING will run all that well on any system in OS X with 128MB. I think they should have doubled their minimum RAM for both OSs.

Yes, its' slow. On both platforms. Runs A LOT FASTER on my dual 450 (have yet to see it use more then 100% CPU though, so the second CPU seems to never get touched :() then on my buddies 500Mhz AMD K7. So it could be worse. But it's feels like they got it running in time for MacWorld and decided to rush it and not optimize it. :( Hope future patches make it even more responsive, how about threading? :D

If you use OS X TURN OFF Quartz.

On my dual 450 G4 w/Rage 128 Pro and 960RAM Civ 3 feels like its' running slower then on our family Rev D iMac playing UT. (hey I got it up to 20fps! :goodjob:)

AFTER! OH MY GOD!!!! I was just like breathing in and out so fast. I could hardly believe it. I sware I saw more performance improvement then when my friend went form slow as hell Civ under a 500Mhz AMD K-7 to a 1500Mhz Athelon XP. It was THAT big.

Okay, I've got 8.6 w/ 333MHz processor and RAM upgrade. How much does the speed of game-play have to do w/ amount of RAM or the processor? My Civ2 game is fast, but it needs only 10 MB RAM, Civ3 minimum is 64 MB (which I have plus). What does the system have to do w/ game-play? I'm thinking not much.


Still waiting on C&B. :(

My game is still on order from Chibts&bits and it is disturbing to see the bad performance news on this thread.

Is anyone out there who got the game at MacWorld running OS 9? I wonder if I will have a big problem running the game with my 400 mHz iMac DV graphite with 256mg RAM. I haven't upgraded to OS X yet since I was worried about memory requirements and don't want to pay $200 yet for the d*mned Microsoft office for OS X upgrade--I just bought office 2001 this past summer dammit. We can avoid MSoft Windows, but still can't escape greedy Microsoft.

Originally posted by SSK
My game is still on order from Chibts&bits and it is disturbing to see the bad performance news on this thread.

Is anyone out there who got the game at MacWorld running OS 9? I wonder if I will have a big problem running the game with my 400 mHz iMac DV graphite with 256mg RAM. I haven't upgraded to OS X yet since I was worried about memory requirements and don't want to pay $200 yet for the d*mned Microsoft office for OS X upgrade--I just bought office 2001 this past summer dammit. We can avoid MSoft Windows, but still can't escape greedy Microsoft.

Doubt any of us Macworld buys run OS 9 sorry :D BUT! As noted above (sorry I was so excited it doesn't make much sense) performance under X WITH quartz on is slow as hell. Turn it off (like how it would be under 9 I assume) and it's a whole new game. So I suspect 9 to run it great. I have seen the very same iMac run it great under OS X, so I really doubt 9 will give it any trouble. :goodjob: enjoy! ;)

check out my post "my thoughts on civ3 mac port" thread in this forum. i agree it desperately needs optimization. my thinking is that civ3 should've been just released as os X only and not os 9 too because os 9 runs it horrible while X runs it to a degree where i can tolerate the laggyness.

I run 667 MHz PowerBook G4 (512 MB RAM) under OS X.1.2 (1152 by 768).

It's almost unplayable with Quartz turned on, but very good with it turned off.

The music is occasionally choppy, so I just turn it off. It's pretty annoying how the game does not remember settings. I have to turn music off every time I start the game!

Otherwise, the game's good. It locked up on me once though. :mad:

Installed Civ3 for Mac yesterday and spent 4 hours (off and on) trying to get it to run respectably. No luck.

First, I had to upgrade QT 4.0 to 4.1.2 or higher. I got QT 5.0 and was able to start-up. After clicking the icon, about 2 minutes went by, with a dark screen and the computer grinding, until the main menu came up. Whenever I made choices (land mass, # of civs, difficulty level, etc.) anywhere from 30 - 40 seconds would pass by (grinding) before I could move on.

Re: dark screen. I did try several refresh rates but only auto worked. Also, I allocated more memory to Civ3 but little improvement if any. It forced me to increase virtual memory which is ineffectual.

System is 8.6 w/ G3 (333 MHZ ), Virtual memory (64 MB), built-in (32 MB), and RAM 128 or 256 MB (can't remember and don't know where to look).

I thought this met the requirements and am a little miffed. The ins and outs of computers is not my bag. Please advise.

I don't have the game yet, dojoboy, but gfeier is right...
Originally posted by gfeier
I think these are really quite a bit understated. I have never seen a game that runs well at the minimum recommended MHz and NOTHING will run all that well on any system in OS X with 128MB.

Sorry about that...I jumped the gun and sent my previous post before I was done :crazyeyes
I don't have the game yet, dojoboy, but gfeier is right...
Originally posted by gfeier
I think these are really quite a bit understated. I have never seen a game that runs well at the minimum recommended MHz and NOTHING will run all that well on any system in OS X with 128MB.
It sounds like you need alot more RAM and with it as cheap as it is right now, I would load up with as much as you can afford. Then I would give Civ 3 a good size chunk of it and let it fly. You might also think about upgrading your OS to at least 9...10 if you're ready for the plunge :cool:

Yea, evidently the RAM upgrade I made a few months ago isn't getting recognized by my mac. I'm carrying it down to the mac-man tomorrow so hopefully, in a couple days, I'll be joining you guys in the strategy thread.

Well, like I just said in the other thread, I'm having no problems at all. G4/450, 512M RAM but using the base allocation of ~128M, under 9.2. Performance is quite good - it isn't perfectly responsive, but it's more than adequate. And I just thought of something - I'm apparently getting much better performance than many people. I'm also not getting the music. Which gives me an idea - try turning off the music. Doesn't seem like it would make much difference, but give it a shot, it almost certainly can't hurt.

That's great news Beamup :D . I've got a Dual G4/450 with 512 MB running OS 9.2.2 and OS X so if you're not having any performance troubles the odds look good. Now, if only my game would get here...:rolleyes:

Originally posted by Rustus Maximus
That's great news Beamup :D . I've got a Dual G4/450 with 512 MB running OS 9.2.2 and OS X so if you're not having any performance troubles the odds look good. Now, if only my game would get here...:rolleyes:

I have the exact same setup (well, more RAM :D) and as long as you turn quartz off you will be quite happily addicted to Civ 3 in a matter of moments ;)

Originally posted by juanvaldes
Yes, its' slow. On both platforms. Runs A LOT FASTER on my dual 450 (have yet to see it use more then 100% CPU though, so the second CPU seems to never get touched :() then on my buddies 500Mhz AMD K7. So it could be worse. But it's feels like they got it running in time for MacWorld and decided to rush it and not optimize it. :( Hope future patches make it even more responsive, how about threading? :D

There's not really anything to thread - it's all turn based and very linear.

Regarding performance, the only killer is Quartz text under 10. In my benchmarking, the Mac version performs very comparably to similary MHz'ed PCs, so don't expect it to get any faster.

If you're noticing that the Mac port runs significantly slower than the PC version on a similar setup with Quartz disabled, then that is definitely a bug, and I'll need more info to try and reproduce it. However, all the feedback I have so far indicates that the performance is inline with the PC, if not slightly faster.

Brad

Originally posted by Brad Oliver


There's not really anything to thread - it's all turn based and very linear.

Regarding performance, the only killer is Quartz text under 10. In my benchmarking, the Mac version performs very comparably to similary MHz'ed PCs, so don't expect it to get any faster.

If you're noticing that the Mac port runs significantly slower than the PC version on a similar setup with Quartz disabled, then that is definitely a bug, and I'll need more info to try and reproduce it. However, all the feedback I have so far indicates that the performance is inline with the PC, if not slightly faster.

Brad

yeah...threading was more of an offhand remark. :p

Should it be sucking up 100% of my CPU when I hide the game under X? And does it ever use my second CPU during game play?

if not. Then Civ 3 is an excellent example of how much better the G4(@450Mhzx2) is over x86 because (as previously stated) it runs ALOT better then a 500Mhz AMD K7.

...of course if Civ DOES use the second CPU then this is an unfair comparison....

Originally posted by juanvaldes
Should it be sucking up 100% of my CPU when I hide the game under X? And does it ever use my second CPU during game play?

I never checked the CPU usage when hidden before, so I don't know what you should expect when it's hidden. Well, you should expect that it doesn't suck up much CPU, but I don't know what's normal for this release. ;)

To answer your other question, it doesn't directly use the second CPU. Quartz or the OpenGL software renderer may use it, but that's outside of our direct control.

Brad

Oh man this is slow. I'm running OS 9.2.2 on a G4/350 with 200 MB allocated to the game, and it's nearly unplayable. Scrolling is the worst, it takes several seconds to refresh each "click" in either direction. All this immediately after starting a game - I haven't yet tried to load some of my saved PC games. I've tried installing all the latest versions of GameSprockets, CarbonLib, etc. and have tried running with a reduced extension set, lower moitor res, etc., all with the same result.

What gives MacSoft?!? This is the first title I've ever seen that runs so poorly on my config (with the possible exception of the horrific Mac SimCity 3000).

Originally posted by Blublub
Oh man this is slow. I'm running OS 9.2.2 on a G4/350 with 200 MB allocated to the game, and it's nearly unplayable. Scrolling is the worst, it takes several seconds to refresh each "click" in either direction. All this immediately after starting a game - I haven't yet tried to load some of my saved PC games. I've tried installing all the latest versions of GameSprockets, CarbonLib, etc. and have tried running with a reduced extension set, lower moitor res, etc., all with the same result.

Allocating 200M to the app is probably killing it. Civ3 uses software OpenGL, which in turn uses free memory from the system heap. The more memory you allocate to Civ3, the less OpenGL has to work with. Try turning it back down to the default. Make sure your OpenGL is up-to-date as well.

Brad

Thanks Brad, but a couple of problems. First, I have the same problem with the default memory setting (so I should have said "even with 200 MB allocated." Second, I've tried to update OpenGL using the installer on the Civ disk and it says I need System 9.1 or earlier. I'll check the Apple site to see if there is a 9.2.2 compatible version and let you know.

Update - after some further checking it turns out I have v.1.2.4 of the OpenGL drivers installed - the latest version available from Apple is the same as that on the CivIII disk - 1.2.1 and isn't compatible with 9.2.2., so in a nutshell, yes I have the latest OpenGL drivers. Something else is up here - my PC version was fast as all get out on an aging 700 MHz system with 128 MB RAM total.

Originally posted by Blublub
Thanks Brad, but a couple of problems. First, I have the same problem with the default memory setting (so I should have said "even with 200 MB allocated."

How much total RAM to you have? Also, can you give me some rough stopwatch timing comparisons for performing various tasks?

Brad

I have 448 MB total RAM installed. Again, it's a G4/350 (Sawtooth) with an internal IBM 60 GB 7200 RPM HD. I'm running OS 9.2.2 and the stock ATI card.

It takes approximately one second for each "click" when scrolling to take effect. Just starting out with one city and one worker, it takes about five seconds each turn for the settler to move one square (and the animation is extremely choppy during his movements). Strangely enough, the times are the same for a new game on a small map and for a game that is far along on a huge map that I started with the PC version. It seems to want to hit the hard disk continuously whenever I scroll.

If it helps, I can email you my system specs from Apple profiler.

Thanks for your help...

Aha - I don't know if this helps, but I discovered that turning virtual memory on (I generally run with it off) improves scrolling speed quite a bit. Animations are still slow and I'm still getting no/broken sound during events, but this is a start, at least.

Still, it's considerably slower than the PC version running on a system that performs at about half the speed of my Mac for most apps.

Originally posted by Blublub
Still, it's considerably slower than the PC version running on a system that performs at about half the speed of my Mac for most apps.

What I found is that MHz for MHz, Civ3 runs at identical speeds on the Mac and PC. If you're comparing a 700MHz PC to a 350MHz Mac, it should be roughly half the speed on the Mac. If you want to whip out a stopwatch and time some stuff on the PC and the Mac, I'd be interested in hearing if the discrepancy is more than 2x.

Brad

Originally posted by Brad Oliver


What I found is that MHz for MHz, Civ3 runs at identical speeds on the Mac and PC. If you're comparing a 700MHz PC to a 350MHz Mac, it should be roughly half the speed on the Mac. If you want to whip out a stopwatch and time some stuff on the PC and the Mac, I'd be interested in hearing if the discrepancy is more than 2x.

Brad

Hmmm...I don't doubt that you're right here, but that would mean this is the first Mac app I've seen where that were true. Doesn't this seem to indicate a problem with the port? The normal rule of thumb would seem to indicate that the G4 should return comperable results to at least double the MHz on the PC side - i.e. my case is a perfect example, having a 350 MHz G4 and a 700 MHz PIII. Civ III Mac IS running at about the equivalent speed of a Pentium II 350.

FWIW, I tried running it on my work computer, a 400 MHz G4 Titanium PB - the performance (or lack thereof) was more or less identical to my desktop. I don't mean to bash MacSoft here - I've had phenomenal success with your other ports, it's just that something is not quite right with Civ III. Any chance you guys are working on optimizing the code and we might get some fixes in a patch somewhere down the road?

Finally, I also tried installing under Mac OS X v. 10.0.4 and couldn't get it to run - it unexpectedly quits as soon as it hits the game setup screen. I'm anxiously awaiting my 10.1 update disc and will try again then.

Originally posted by Blublub
Hmmm...I don't doubt that you're right here, but that would mean this is the first Mac app I've seen where that were true. Doesn't this seem to indicate a problem with the port? The normal rule of thumb would seem to indicate that the G4 should return comperable results to at least double the MHz on the PC side - i.e. my case is a perfect example, having a 350 MHz G4 and a 700 MHz PIII. Civ III Mac IS running at about the equivalent speed of a Pentium II 350.

Then this is normal. You need to look closer at your other apps. Quake 3, for example, runs about the same, MHz per MHz as nost Mac games do. I'm not sure what Mac games you have that run 2x as fast on comparable Mac hardware, but I have a hard time believing that to be the case. If you can provide me with some numbers to back that up, I'll be far less skeptical.

Brad

Just an FYI for everyone wondering whether it will run well on their machines or not, consider this. I just bought it this afternoon, and have been playing it pretty much all night. I have the 400 G3 graphite imac with system 9.1, and it is running great. There is occasionally a little lag when a new screen pops up, or a new sound comes on, but no more than a couple seconds at the most. Even these don't happen all the time. I am no where near the end of the game, so these may become more frequent when I meet more cpu players, or more of the map is revealed, but then again maybe not. All I know is that I was worried about whether mine would run well because I didn't have the "Recommended Processor," but after tonight all those fears have been laid to rest.

Thanks Brad, you guys did a great job!!:goodjob:

All is right with the world now...my 10.1 update disk finally arrived, Civ III launches fine and runs every bit as fast as the PC version on my 700 MHz Pentium III.

Brad, something must be up with my particular configuration under OS 9.2.2, as performance under 10.1.2 is perfect (except for sounds during battle still dropping out - which are still there) but under OS 9 it leaves very much to be desired.

Performance:
I'm noticing that people running OK either have X.1 and have turned Quartz off *OR* have an older G3 and 9.1 or earlier. I seem to notice problems specifically with people running 9.2.2 OR iBooks.

I'm running 9.0.4 on a G3 400 iMac with 256 RAM, and am having rather few problems. Sure it's kinda slow, especially scrolling, but not unplayably so. Kind of reminds me of playing Civ II on a pre-powerPC Mac. I'm hoping my upgrade to X.1 will speed things up.

Issues I've noticed (since I see Brad is reading):
______________________________________
1) The program locked up once when, from city screen, hit F1 and entered the domestic advisor, and from there clicked on a different city than the one I was in the city screen before. Mouse/cursor still functioned, but I could not click anything or exit the screen. Could not warm shut down, had to turn off the power and cold reboot.

2) Preferences problems--have been mentioned by many so far; I assume this will eventually be addressed.

3) Flaky music--already discussed elsewhere.

4) Errors in the manual (not Brad's domain):
a) The civ-specific attributes of the Chinese are wrong in the manual (they say Industrious, scientific--should be Industrious, Militaristic)
b) The civ-specific attributes of the Persians are wrong in the manual (they say Militaristic, Commercial--should be Industrious, Scientific)
c) Manual says cmd-p is preferences screen, when it pauses the game and puts you in finder.

Verdict so far (from playing 1 game to about 300 BC): I am surprised your testers didn't notice the prefences problems, but basically, good job Brad--relatively few problems.

Well, I'm running 9.2.2 with no problems, so there isn't quite a cause-and-effect relationship.

Also, one other issue I've found that nobody else has reported yet. Frequently I do a full cycle through all of the F-keys, 1 through 11, to keep fully up-to-date on what's going on. When I then try to close that screen, I have to hit the close button (meaning the X down in the corner) about half-a-dozen times before it actually closes.

Originally posted by SSK
c) Manual says cmd-p is preferences screen, when it pauses the game and puts you in finder.[/B]

AH HAH!!! I've been looking for a way to do that, so I can check for email without having to quit, but didn't find any way to do it. Incidentally, Brad, why was command-tab to switch applications deactivated and replaced with something else? Seems like if you're going to have that capability you might as well keep the usual command key for it.

I turned off Quartz -- and the performance is WONDERFUL! Thank you all!

Kate

I turned off Quartz -- and the performance is WONDERFUL! Thank you all!

Kate

System Specs: G4/450 256MB,20GB with a stock ATI video card. I'm running OS 10.1.2.

Story: I installed the full version, disabled Quartz and I still find CIV3 to be slow, BUT playable. Unit moves are slow. The preferences are NOT saved.

I'm hoping for a patch soon!

Originally posted by Beamup
Incidentally, Brad, why was command-tab to switch applications deactivated and replaced with something else? Seems like if you're going to have that capability you might as well keep the usual command key for it.

We thought about that for a bit. The issue is "what should happen when you hit command-tab?" Civ3 isn't meant to be switched to/from fullscreen and a window, so the only practical thing to do is for the app to pause when you want to switch it out. However, what should happen when you click on Civ3 after having switched it out? And what do you click on - just the dock or a window? And what about those OS 9 users? We ultimately decided to put up a "paused" dialog and let the user sort out what they wanted to do and when.

Brad

I just installed Civ3 on my modest Mac, a G4/400 with just 128 megs of RAM. It runs just fine in Mac OSX. All I fdid was turn off the Quartz in the dialgoe box on start up and it runs very nicely. There are a few very minor glitches, such as the music and sound effects sometimes being a little bit choppy, but otherwise it's working great. With all the posts bemoaning how badly Civ3 was running I just wanted to say how pleased I have been with my experience.

I too have had good performance on my g4/DP 450. I turned off Quartz from the beginning after reading all the posts on the subject here, so I've never experienced that slowdown. As for glitches, the only things I have noticed are the common problems everyone is having, no music and spotty sound effects playback during combat. Other than that...the game is running great :D (Well that and I can no longer wipe out an enemy civilization with only 5 tanks and some infantry (ala CIV 2)...I mean, come on, that's not very realistic :lol: )

I got my mac back today and it is recognizing the RAM now. I've got 288 MB RAM w/ 289 MB allocated to virtual memory on an OS 8.6 system and Civ3 is running extremely well. I couldn't ask for it to be any better.

So gald to finally be playing the game. Over the first couple hours --- no problems. I'll chime in on some other threads, but for now, Civ3 is up and running.

Well, I installed a friend's X.1 on my iMac 400 mHz G3, and in addition to my loving OS X; Civ III runs, I'd say, maybe 100% faster (quartz text off of course). In addition, the startup music is no longer flaky. I still can't seem to get any music to play during the game, but that's OK--I didn't really want it, I was just curious...

So no question, Civ III runs much better under OS X.1

I'll admit that CIV III is a little pokey. But then I'm running it in OS 8.6 on a 7200/75 with a Sonnet G3 300 upgrade and 320MB of RAM. Wish it were a bit faster, but it is playable and I had no trouble getting it to run.