I've recently been just writing up some test governments in Notepad to try out some different options we have. One thought I had was the adaptability of our government, or more specifically, the leaders, and how dynamic they are through the game. One thought I had was sort of a 'hierarchy', or maybe a more complex (I hate to use that word in this situation) deputy system. It's not really a deputy, per se, and it's not really complex. It's just ... different. ;)

Most of the government (Judicial + Legislative) was kept the same: 3 judges, and governors (who can appoint mayors (who can have town assemblies -- good for early game fun, when there aren't many cities. Expansion is slow in Civ4). This is just one example of a 'hierarchy'). The only branch I fiddled with was the Executive Branch.

In previous Demogames, we had set positions throughout the game - a culture advisor was sometimes unneeded in the first term, or a trade advisor had no role early on (ie; in Civ4, you cannot trade until a bit into the tech tree, at Alphabet). Similarly, a science advisor wouldn't have much to do when the game was pretty much in hand, or we turned science off as we rushed for a domination victory. Early in other DGs, one proposal was to have the officials change with our government in-game. I thought that would become too hectic. One solution I came up with: seperate the branches of the Executive Branch into two: Internal Affairs and Foreign Affairs. (There is still a President).

Each Affairs branch would have its own 'leader' (ie; Internal Affairs Leader or FA Leader). However, how they wanted to customize this branch would be up to them. For example, early in the game, the FA Leader might not have many helpers (maybe only a Secretary of Exploration or such). The IA Leader might have a Secretary of Expansion and a Secretary of Technology. Once they were elected (there would be 3 elections for the Exec. Branch: Pres, IA, FA), they would appoint their fellow officials as needed.

As the game progresses, say we build up a military, become able to trade technologies, and build a stable economy. The IA Leader could then abolish the Secretary of Expasnion, as all available land disappeared. They could start the positions of Secretary of the Treasury and of War, now more important than Expansion. Inside the Secretary of War, they could have sub-positions, like General of the Army. As we build a navy and an air force, those could be accomadated too. All the officials could have sub-officials, and so on. Later, there could be a Secretary of Espionage for the FA, etc, etc. You catch my drift now.

How would elections be done, then, if positions are constantly changing? Well, as I wrote, there are three major positions in the Exec. Branch: Pres., and the IA and FA Leaders. President would be regularly elected in terms, as would the IA and FA Leaders. However, all the Secretaries would be appointed by their respective Leader, and could have term threads, and start all the usual discussions. This allows the government to adapt to the progress of our nation.

I realize this gives an enormous amount of power to the IA and FA leaders. Perhaps we could have a system to check + balance their power (or two systems). (1) Make all appointments be approved by the President, or (2) if the citizens don't like an appointment, one could start a poll that would require X% of voters to overturn the appointment, and make them choose someone new.

Why would this system be better than an old one? In our old system, deputies had no real 'role'. This gives them a clear-cut role. Rather than be 'Deputy of War', you could be 'Secretary of War Planning' (ie; strategies + war plans) or 'General of the Army' who would give advice on how to use the army. With the old system, you didn't really have a job to do, unless the real leader couldn't effectively continue because of time constraints. Also, it doesn't limit our positions, creating useless positions in the early game that later will become productive, and early one ones that are important, but then fade. This one eliminates deputies, and gives them a more meaningful position.

Lastly, as seen with the Civ3 DG, participation always drops at the end of games. This would be a way to deal with it: as people disappear, you can consolidate positions to fit in with the # of people. Thanks for reading this proposal. I realize it was really long, and it might've taken awhile. I truly feel this could be a good idea, however, and welcome your input. :goodjob:

I'll make comments on the specific proposals later when I have more time, but I would like to see these other proposals, you have my email address so could you please send them to me.

The Triumvirate government already includes some ideas and will include more in its next incarnation.

-the Wolf

Only one is actually done - it is basically this government. I have some other ones just in my mind, that I will try to write up soon. I'll send it.

As you requested, comments to the Government you sent me:

1. You have three members of the national government and governors; I would like to see more offices.
2. I think military plans should be under the office of Foreign Affairs since to paraphrase Karl von Clausewitz "War is nothing more than the continuation of diplomacy by other means."
3. You did say who the members of the Legislative Branch, so I'll state my position: I believe that to keep our government true to our Democratic Principles it MUST involve all of us citizens in a brand of Direct Democracy. To that end I believe that the Legislative Branch must include all citizens not holding an office.
4. As for the Judicial Branch I like what you have set.
5. I very much like that the President is the DP for reasons I'll go into later on my government thread.
;) I'll get off my soapbox now.

-the Wolf

I do like the flexible positions idea, as it mirrors the idea of the U.S. Cabinet. Whether to elect them or not is a tricky question; too many elections reduces interest, but too few elections reduces control. How about this?

1. When a Leader first makes a post, he appoints someone to it.
2. The citizens can ask for a vote to make a post elected.
3. If it passes, the next post holder is elected.

With all the offices defined in the Code of Laws, it is easy to add and subtract offices even mid term. A majority approves it, and the change is made. You will note that I made the term in the draft Constitution "a predetermined period" instead of either months or turns. This allows us to define a new office in the middle of the month, hold a special election, and have that citizen serve until the next general election. :D

I kinda have the same comment here as in the Triumvirate government thread. Too few top level elected offices sounds dangerous, limiting it to just 3 is downright scary. A President plus 4 or President plus 6 seems to work pretty well.

Ok, so using this as a starting point it comes to:
Having a set list of advisors throughout the game. Having the advisors in the game be decided by the officials as we progress. Having the advisors in the game be decided by the citizens as we progress.
It seems like doing the first one would be sort of counter-productive at points, and the second might give a couple of officials (we wouldn't have to use my example) too much power. However, I see #3 as something that would take a lot of time. I guess it's now a debate between #2 and #3.

DaveShack: I'm just worried about the time we have. By the time we agree to create the position with a poll (assuming 6 days) and we nominate + have an election (6 days), that's already 1/3 of the term over, assuming we started in the beginning of the term sequence. If we started this halfway through, there would be little to no time for them to serve. Having the officials create it is (a) more realistic and (b) faster, I would think.

I am very much in favour of a flexible government. As I have said elsewhere I'm a pragmatist, and this is very practical.

The problem is indeed: elections or appointments (again...) when an office is created. In this instance, to speed things up, if a new office is created the responsible leader should be able to appoint someone to hold office. This person then functions as holder of said new office, unless the people object (I imagine this in a poll as in 'do you agree with person X holding this office? yes/no/abstain') If a majority votes no the person has to be replaced, otherwise the person can remain in office until the end of his term.

In effect, this is a combination of election and appointment, and slightly topsy-turvy. A leader appoints someone to an office who has all the powers that come with that office, unless the people object.

Good idea? Comments?

I realize this gives an enormous amount of power to the IA and FA leaders. Perhaps we could have a system to check + balance their power (or two systems). (1) Make all appointments be approved by the President, or (2) if the citizens don't like an appointment, one could start a poll that would require X% of voters to overturn the appointment, and make them choose someone new.


OK, i have a suggestion to lower their power. A parliment or some sort of peoples body of elected representatives, call it a congress or parliment or even a senate. it would be quite small, 5 or 7 people. they would decide if someone could be in office or not.

OK, an example: say that person A is hired by the FA leader to be Minister of Trade. the previous term s/he was MoT but messed up and made some very bad deals that were ruioning our economy. The people dont want him/er again this term in fear of the same thing happening. so a concerned citizen would contact parliment and inform them about their worry. if parliment decided that it was substantial (as to avoid people saying, i think that Saladin may ask us for a trade and s/he would turn it down and ruin the economy even if the MoT hadnt done anything like that in the past, so basically superstition on no grounds), then they would set up a poll and if 10-15 people said that hey feared that the MoT would make the same mistake due to past work, then the parliment would disuss, for 48 hours whether or not the MoT was fit for the job. they would announce their verdict and the FA would have to act accordingly.

i know this is similar to the poll idea, Ginger Ale, but this way you have some focused citizens disscussing it, as opposed to a lynch mob with their adrenaline flowing.

Why bother having a 'senate' at all when you could just poll the citizens? A citizen could make a complaint to the President, the President puts up a poll, simple. No need to have 5 or 7 more officials who might not have any activity.


Gloriana: That is what I was thinking. People in the FA department will be appointed by the FA Leader (or their head -- a General of the Army would be appointed by the Secy. of War), but if the citizens feel it isn't a good idea, they can challenge the appointment and try a 'recall'.

Why bother having a 'senate' at all when you could just poll the citizens? A citizen could make a complaint to the President, the President puts up a poll, simple. No need to have 5 or 7 more officials who might not have any activity.



because the people might turn into a lynch mob. by having focused indivuals study the problem we can stop that. plus, it creates jobs

And the whole purpose of this is to not have unnecessary jobs, if you read the post (specifcally the last post).

The people won't all turn into a lynch mob, if at all. How do you know the 5 or 7 senate people won't all be 'lynch mobbers' 'out to get you'?? That is a broad generalization that won't happen. If the citizens feel someone should be kicked out, the citizens should get their say.

And the whole purpose of this is to not have unnecessary jobs, if you read the post (specifcally the last post).

The people won't all turn into a lynch mob, if at all. How do you know the 5 or 7 senate people won't all be 'lynch mobbers' 'out to get you'?? That is a broad generalization that won't happen. If the citizens feel someone should be kicked out, the citizens should get their say.


they would ge thteir say, the parliment would be a control valve that would know what they wanted since they could be contacted and complained too. if a few citizens get angry and make bloated accusations then you might have other citizens believe the accusations and a lynch mob is born. the senate wouldnt be a lynch mob since it would need 48 hours to discuss this and would have lost lynch mobness by then

Using your logic, could we just have the citizen discussion last for 48 hours or more so the lynch mobs go away? I doubt that will work.

If a few citizens get angry, so be it. That is their right, and they can share their opinions. You can't make it so that there are no unhappy citizens in this game. You are using hyperbole and stretching the trust - what you are writing will most likely never happen, and if it does, how can we stop it? Having a group of 5 or 7 citizens vote is no different than having a group of everyone - so why limit it? The citizens should have the right to vote out something that isn't doing their job if they want to - period. It shouldn't have to be decided by officials themselves.

Using your logic, could we just have the citizen discussion last for 48 hours or more so the lynch mobs go away? I doubt that will work.

If a few citizens get angry, so be it. That is their right, and they can share their opinions. You can't make it so that there are no unhappy citizens in this game. You are using hyperbole and stretching the trust - what you are writing will most likely never happen, and if it does, how can we stop it? Having a group of 5 or 7 citizens vote is no different than having a group of everyone - so why limit it? The citizens should have the right to vote out something that isn't doing their job if they want to - period. It shouldn't have to be decided by officials themselves.
In my idea, the citizens would decide, they would decide if they wanted to try someone as unfit. it works like a jury, they use reason and facts to decide. if the decisions made in the previous term were unpopular but good the person would still be kicked out

Regarding RoboPig's idea, we have tried a Senate with members being the Governors and most of the time it doesn't work well because we had trouble getting enough senators to participate on a regular basis. Using a smaller body like that doesn't necessarily speed things up, nor is it inherently more fair than having everyone vote. Since neither of the potential reasons to do it that way is a real benefit, I don't think we should do it.

Our Presidents have been underpowered in previous games. How about giving the President the role of creating an office if needed. In the US this is how it actually works in practice. We have an Office of National Drug Control Policy because it was created by executive order. Ok, some people may not be fans of that particular office, but it's a good example. Some other cabinet departments were created the same way.

I still want to start with at least 4 departments, so with the President that means at least 5 executive offices.

I love this idea actually...
But why not put the governors under the Internal Affairs Leader? The citizenry can be the legislature...
Because this goes along with your idea, early when we have only 1 city, do we really need a governor? The IA leader can handle this city for awhile...

Also The Secretary of Military would go under Foreign Affairs Leader...

Overall this is a great idea, it makes elected officials more scare which is needed, having 3/4 of the citizenry elected isnt how a government works

Regarding RoboPig's idea, we have tried a Senate with members being the Governors and most of the time it doesn't work well because we had trouble getting enough senators to participate on a regular basis. Using a smaller body like that doesn't necessarily speed things up, nor is it inherently more fair than having everyone vote. Since neither of the potential reasons to do it that way is a real benefit, I don't think we should do it.


allright, but we need a safety valve of some sort, to make sure all the facts are true.

How about giving the President the role of creating an office if needed.


you want this because you have a guarentee on being voted in first term;)

you want this because you have a guarentee on being voted in first term;)

Maybe I'm thinking Chief Justice instead of President. :mischief:

It's kinda getting old being the one to create the game every time. Satisfying to say the least, but perhaps one of the highly active newcomers could take on that role given it's a completely new game. :cool:

Oh, by the way it's time to make final arguments on this prior to a poll to decide where we should concentrate.

Here is some sample language which would enable the government to be flexible, on a fast schedule, and allow the people a check/balance capability.

The [insert name of chief executive office] may adapt the government to changing conditions by proclamation, by following the following procedures.

A new position may be created to address an area which is not coveredy by existing offices by appointing a citizen to the office and declaring what the duties of the office are.
The duties of the new office may include part of the duties of other offices, with the approval of the current holders of those offices.

An existing position may be eliminated by requesting the current office holder, if any, to step down, or by announcing that a vacant office will be eliminated instead of appointing a citizen to the office.
Duties of the eliminated office may be distributed among existing offices, with the consent of the existing office holders.
Some or all duties of the office may be assigned to the default holder of unspecified duties, as specified by law.

The duties of the existing positions may be rearranged by requesting the current office holders to modify their areas of responsiblity, provided all affected office holders agree.

Any citizen may request the people to disallow a change by posting a non-approval poll within 48 hours of the appointment.
Any changes made under this provision affect the current term only. If the people wish the changes to persist beyond the end of the term, they must codify the changes as amendments to the relevant laws.

We could also do sort of a combination of this and the DG VII-style government; seperate the main aspects of the game into 3 or 4 basic leaders, and then set up this system to cover the rest. When I wrote this, I didn't intentionally mean for this to be a full government, per se. More of what DaveShack wrote - an addon we can, well, add on, to the constitution/CoL to make it more flexible. We can define it how we want.

I have to say I like the general idea of this. But it's all too less structured yet. I cannot really figure what EXACTLY people have to do to make this work and HOW this should work...

I'm putting myself into danger of being called "groupie" again :lol: , but isn't this sort of the same stated in the tri-gov. about the cabinet? Maybe a paragraph would have to be added when and how a position can be deleted again but otherwise it sounds familiar to me...

I have to say I like the general idea of this. But it's all too less structured yet. I cannot really figure what EXACTLY people have to do to make this work and HOW this should work...


OK, that's reasonable to ask. The history of the DemoGame has been one of constant back and forth between process oriented people and those with a more flexible approach.

We have had rulesets which said a certain individual had to start a discussion, which had to be open for 3 days before a mock poll could be posted, and then 24 hours later if there were no substantial changes it had to be presented to the Judiciary, who would review it and each Justice had to rule clearly and individually, after which a poll could be posted, but only by the Chief Justice, and 66% of the people (or 50% if more than 66% of the citizens voted) had to vote yes. (yes, I wrote this a one huge sentence for a reason) :lol:

The above is a Constitutional Amendment process. The current Constitution says what percentage of votes are needed and nothing about the process other than how many days the poll must be opened. I had trouble with the convoluted process when a justice was gone for days so couldn't rule, or a gadfly kept trying to make changes to the mock poll thus resetting the clock, or the justices couldn't agree among themselves whether the CJ really had to post the poll or if that could be delegated. So I decided to make it easier (at least to start) and let the process oriented folk get their pound of flesh back in the lower law or as an amendment. :lol:

The flexible goverment has the support of The Party, which is as of now the second largest in the DemoGame.

I like the concept that this government is based on, though I might move it in a different direction.

It's clear that for the sake of cohesiveness, a few top offices must be defined. I would move for only three such defined offices (excluding the judiciary) - the Domestic Ministry, Foreign Ministry, and the Defense Ministry. I would eliminate the (basically useless) seperate President, and instead prehaps would make it a rotating position, symbolically bestowed on the DP for the next session, or rotating amongst the three Ministers (based on the model of Bosnia and Herzegovina or the European Union). Under these three, seperate offices would be created as needed as outlined by Ginger_Ale before.

I add the Defense Minister as a permanent position because it is such a powerful and necessary component of our nation, and remove the seperately-elected governorships because the order we need to properly govern our cities - to differentiate them as seperate powerhouses requires that favoritism and competition among the provinces could be harmful. The Domestic Minister could create city governorships as needed.

Well, we should talk about this! ;)

The IA Leader might have a Secretary of Expansion and a Secretary of Technology. Once they were elected (there would be 3 elections for the Exec. Branch: Pres, IA, FA), they would appoint their fellow officials as needed.

I found this in the Party-thread (no offence against your party, "I am the future", but it raised a good point to discuss!). Since I'm continually committing thought crime ;) I'd like to bring your attention to this and hope this can be adressed...
The government should be changed in the way that the IA and EA-leaders might not have the power to appoint whoever they like but have to go through a vote...

If a vote is cast about the style of goverment I would like to strongly encurage our members to use the "flexible Goverment" It allows for those in power to appoint people of similair mind. theirfore makeing the controlling party, very controlling. SO If a member of The Party is elected I would hope that they only nominate other Party members, this way we try and keep supreme authority.

VOTE FLEXIBLE!!!

Stilgar

I add the Defense Minister as a permanent position because it is such a powerful and necessary component of our nation, and remove the seperately-elected governorships because the order we need to properly govern our cities - to differentiate them as seperate powerhouses requires that favoritism and competition among the provinces could be harmful. The Domestic Minister could create city governorships as needed.

A good thought. We should think about this, especially after you stated that sometimes there aren't enough people aropund for the governour-positions...

The reason why it took appointment rather than election was time. We can't wait 3 days for one confirmation poll, only to find it failed, and start another one. This way, we can create them all on the day of the new term. Then, if the citizen's have any objections as to who has been appointed, we can have a recall poll.

That's not optimal for me because indeed it opens the "appoint my buddy"-problem all the doors...
I'd rather wait for the outcome of polls and keep it more DEMOCRATIC in that way...

I'd like to add a suggestion for serious war situations:

I. Concept
When war is getting serious (e.g. a neighbour is attacking us and directly threatening our cities), there should be a possibility to install a war cabinet, named the Crisis Assembly.

II. How ?
To do this the President opens a poll and when there is more than 60% in favour, the decision can be made to open such a cabinet, but it should first be ratified by the General of the Army (or Secretary of War Planning, or how you want to name him), who from then will be the head of the so called 'Crisis Assembly'. He appoints several deputies. (e.g He selects people for each front, or Deputies of the Fleet and Deputies of the Air Force: he chooses it himself.)

III. Mandates
In war-time the Head of the Army shouls get several mandates (I don't know whether it's the right word), e.g diplomacy, management of the treasury, production, But not changes of government or labour civics, for changes of civics, there should still be a poll.

IV. Supervision
To make sure the Crisis Assembly does't abuse its power, the President and the citizens should elect one Supervisor each, which have mandates to impeach the War-time Commander, by a public poll, supported by each Supervisor, which should get at least 60% to get ratified. When the assembly is impeached, there should be voted for a new Head of the Assembly, who chooses new deputies, who are not allowed to be teh same ones as the previous ones.

V. End of crises
Every citizen can, with a public poll, propose to make an end to the reign of the Crisis Assembly, when the poll reaches 60% in favour. Then the assembly is disbanded, and a new General of the Army is elected.

VI. Historical Examples

Classical Rome featured a Dictator, about who Wikipedia says:
"Dictator" was the title of the highest chief magistrate in ancient Rome, the only one without a colleague, appointed by the Senate to rule the state in times of emergency. Roman dictators were usually experienced generals and politicians, were invested with sweeping authority over the citizens, but they were originally limited to a term of six months and lacked power over the public finances. Lucius Cornelius Sulla and Julius Caesar, however, abolished these limitations and governed without these constraints.

In the system of Roman Republic, a dictator rei gerendae causa was an extraordinary magistrate (without a colleague) temporarily granted significant power over the state during times of great threat to the state, as in a defensive war. The office was usually held for only 6 months or a military campaign.


This was a short introduction to my idea, tell me whether you like it. I thought it may give too much power to the Head of the Army.

Should I make a new thread for this idea ?

While i do like the idea's this presents, it is more of a political theory than a political system. Being that its is a polictical theory(and a good one ate that) it can be incorperated with whichever form of goverment we choose. This is a brilliant idea, and i would love to see it incorporated into the tri or any other GOVERNMENT we choose.

Bravo on the excellent work Gingerale. Great political theory since socialism:crazyeye: (last part not actually my feelings, only j/k ing)

With apologies to AlphaWolf for not obtaining prior permission to lift text from the Triumvirate 5.0, and to Ginger Ale for not discussing this idea ahead of time and thereby semi-hijacking the Flexible proposal... :mischief:

I would like to suggest the following as the initial set of offices for the Flexible government. To save time and excess typing, and to make our choice in a runoff clear, I've copied and edited the Triumvirate 5.0 version to essentially make it "more traditional", and then cut back on pre-defined offices so we can grow as we go, which is what flexible was all about to begin with.


The Flexible Government of the Triumvirate

Section 1 The Federal Government

A) The Legislative Branch
I. This branch consists of one house known as Citizens Assembly.

II. The Citizens Assembly shall consist of all citizens of the Nation. The Citizens Assembly shall be presided over by the Censor.

III. Certain decisions require a vote of Only the Citizens Assembly may decide five things: Declare War/Make Peace/Alliance, to change civics or state religion, to begin construction on a Great Wonder/National Wonder/Project, a change in Taxes (the science/treasury/culture meter) greater that 30% more than once every 5 turns, and acceptance of general plan of where to build new cities.

IV. Citizens Assembly issues are decided by a simple majority poll. [The manner in how the Citizens Assembly decides issues will go here.]

V. The Executive Branch must enforce a vote of the Citizens Assembly even if they disagree with the decision.

VI. The Citizens Assembly may bring a no confidence vote against the Triumvirate and impeach members of the Cabinet.


B) The Executive Branch
I. This branch consists of the Triumvirate President and any and all elected and appointed Cabinet Officials and their deputies. IA. The Triumvirate Cabinet will initially consist of the President, Secretary of the Interior, Secretary of State, and the Secretary of War. Additional offices may be created as specified in section [insert reference].
IB. The Cabinet Officials will be any office that we the citizens deem necessary to have that is not included as part of the Triumvirate, the Judiciary, a Gubernatorial office or the Designated Player. The Cabinet currently consists of the Censor, Minister of Interior, Minster of Culture, Minister of Science, and Director of Intelligence. II. The Powers and Duties of the Triumvirate. 1. During a time of War the Triumvirate may decide that a state of mobilization is necessary for [our nation] and declare that a State of Mobilization exists.
2. State of MobilizationA. A State of Mobilization can only be declared in a time of War.
B. A State of Mobilization may not last more than 15 game turns. However, if Peace is declared and a State of War exists with no Civilization, the State of Mobilization ends immediately.
C. A State of Mobilization may not be declared until at least 45 game turns have elapsed since the ending of the last Mobilization.
D. A State of Mobilization may be ended prematurely by a 6/10 (60%) vote of the Governors Council after at least 7 game turns of Mobilization have passed.1. Should Mobilization be ended prematurely, it may be declared again in only 25 game turns.E. Effects of Mobilization:I. The control of all workers goes the Triumvirate during this period, but the Minister of the Interior and the Governors retain control until a worker is specifically requested by the Triumvirate. The Triumvirate may not force a worker to quit an action assigned to it by the Minister of the Interior of a Governor, but must wait until that particular action has completed or is ended by the original authority.
II. The Triumvirate may change what is under construction in any city except for those that have begun a Citizen Assembly approved Wonder or have begun prebuild for approved Wonder. The Triumvirate may only order that military units or building may be built.
III. The Triumvirate may take up to one half of the prewar garrison of a city in to the regular army during a State of Mobilization.

Note: renumber as needed
IIA. The Powers and Duties of the President1. During the Turnchat the President, or a Representative of the President, may order the ending of play in continuing requires a decision to be made that can only be made by the Citizens Assembly. If the Turns are being played offline the Designated Player must end play if he is forced to make a decision that can only be made by the Citizens Assembly.
2. President is the only officer that may ask the officially ask the Citizens Assembly for a Declaration of WAR. Other officials may request a vote on War from their positions in the Citizens Assembly, but only the President may ask for War.
3. The President will define a budget that all other official may not exceed without permission.
4. The units the President controls:A. The President shall control all Settler and the defensive units assigned to them.
B. The President shall control all naval units.IIB. The Powers and Duties of the Secretary of State1. The Secretary of State shall have control of the Foreign policy of our nation with the exception in the Declaration of War/Peace/Alliance and trade of cities.A. The Secretary of State needs the permission of the Citizens Assembly: War/Peace/Alliance or the giving away of one of our Nation's cities.
B. The Secretary of State needs the permission of the Triumvirate to accept a city, if applicable.IIC. The Powers and Duties of the Secretary of War1. The Secretary of War shall have control of all military land units with the exception of garrisons under the control of Governors and units assigned to settlers.A. The Secretary of War may not attack a city or unit of a neutral or allied Civilization, without the permission of the Citizens Assembly.2. The Secretary of War shall have control of all air units.

IID. The Powers and Duties of the Secretary of the Interior
1. The Secretary of the Interior shall have control over everything which happens inside our borders which has not been assigned to another official.
III. The Cabinet 1. Addition and Subtraction of Offices from the Cabinet.A. To add an Office to the Cabinet requires a Yea vote of 51% from the Citizens Assembly. Any Office added will be last on the seniority list.
B. To remove an Office from the Cabinet requires a Yea vote of 58% from the Citizens Assembly.IIIA. The Cabinet shall consist of, in order of seniority, the Censor, Minister of Interior, Minster of Culture, Minister of Science, and Director of Intelligence.
IIIB. The Powers and Duties of the Censor:1. The Censor be in charge of maintaining the Census and shall be the Official in charge of all elections.
2. Censor shall be responsible for the official results of an election and for validating an election.
3. The Censor is also responsible for validating any other official polls.IIIC. The Powers and Duties of the Minister of Interior:1. The Minister of the Interior shall be in control of all workers not assigned to Governors.
2. The Minister of the Interior shall work with the Governors and create a plan of which city improvements shall be constructed in a city and when.
3. The Minister of the Interior shall keep track of the resources in our territory and where they are.
4. The Minister of the Interior shall control all Great Engineers.IIID. Powers and Duties of the Minister of Culture:1. The Minister of Culture shall keep track of the Culture buildings in each city, the Culture of each city, and the religions in each city throughout the Empire, and shall may this information available to any citizen upon request.
2. The Minister of Culture shall control all Great Artists, Great Merchants, and Great Prophets.
3. The Minister of Culture shall be in charge of all Missionaries.
4. The Minister of Culture may require a culture building to built in a City once every 4 buildings, if none of the previous 3 buildings was a culture building. And what type of building it shall be.IIIE. Powers and Duties of the Minister of Science:1. The Minister of Science shall choose what technology will be researched.
2. The Minister of Science shall keep a list of at least three technologies that are to be researched next and in what order.
3. The Minister of Science shall control all Great Scientists.IIIF. Powers and Duties of the Director of Intelligence:1. The Director of Intelligence shall keep records of all known Empires; the cities, religion, military units, wonders, and civics of those Empires. Records shall also be kept of the size, religion, improvements, and anything else deemed necessary about their cities.
2. The Director of Intelligence shall have complete control of all spies.
3. The Director of Intelligence shall be appointed by the Triumvirate.
4. The Director of Intelligence, being an appointed position, shall not be affected by term limits.
5. The Director of Intelligence may be fired by the Triumvirate.

Note: reformat to make this consistent with the remainder of the laws.

III. Mid-term Changes to Government Structure
A. The President may adapt the government to changing conditions by proclamation, by following the following procedures.
A new position may be created to address an area which is not coveredy by existing offices by appointing a citizen to the office and declaring what the duties of the office are.
The duties of the new office may include part of the duties of other offices, with the approval of the current holders of those offices.
An existing position may be eliminated by requesting the current office holder, if any, to step down, or by announcing that a vacant office will be eliminated instead of appointing a citizen to the office.
Duties of the eliminated office may be distributed among existing offices, with the consent of the existing office holders.
Some or all duties of the office may be assigned to the default holder of unspecified duties, as specified by law.
The duties of the existing positions may be rearranged by requesting the current office holders to modify their areas of responsiblity, provided all affected office holders agree.
Any citizen may request the people to disallow a change by posting a non-approval poll within 48 hours of the appointment.
Any changes made under this provision affect the current term only. If the people wish the changes to persist beyond the end of the term, they must codify the changes as amendments to the relevant laws.
Changes made under this provision must be recorded completely and concisely in a separate thread labelled Term n Procedural Code, for use in determining easily which office is responsible for each decision area.
IV. Vacancies IVA. Should a vacancy occur in the Triumvirate the President shall take over the duties of the vacant office. Should the President be the vacant office the Secretary of State shall take over the duties of the President. Should both the offices of President and Secretary of State be vacant the Secretary of War shall take over the duties of both offices. Should the entire Triumvirate be vacant the most senior of the Cabinet members shall take over the duties of Triumvirate until a special election can be held.
IVB. Should any vacancy occur in the Cabinet the Deputy shall take over the duties of that office. The word acting shall be included in the title of office. Should there not be a deputy the President shall appoint an acting office holder. Appointments may be challenged by any citizen within 48 hours of the appointment by posting a non-approval poll.

Article 2 The Local Government

A) Governors
I. Governors are the elected officials that run cities or states. IA. The Powers and Duties of the Governors:1. The Governors may move any workers or garrison units assigned to them anywhere in there city's radius or state boundaries.
2. The Governor shall work with the Minister of the Interior to decide which improvement shall be built.
3. The Designated Player shall act as Governor of any cities build during his play session at the end of which, the office is declared vacant.
4. The first elected governor of a city or state may select the official flag of that city or state.IB. Powers and Duties of the Governors Council:1. The Governors Council shall consist of the Governors of all Cities and States.
2. Any vacant Gubernatorial offices will be filled by an appointment of the Governors Council.
3. The Governors Council may veto the actions [u]requiring a vote of the Citizens Assembly of any member of the Cabinet with a 6/10 (60%) majority vote of the council. This veto is only allowed if the vote in the Citizen's Assembly was less than 60%, and may be vetoed by a 60% Citizen's Assembly vote. may be prevented by aoverridden by only the Triumvirate. [Should it be possible to override the veto?]
4. The Governors Council may end a State of Mobilization prematurely by a 6/10 (60%) vote after at least 7 game turns of Mobilization have passed.IC. States1. No states may be created until our Civilization owns at least five cites.
2. A minimum of 3 cities must exist in a proposed state at the time of its creation.
3. The Creation of a state requires a 6/10 (60%) majority of both the Citizens Assembly and the Governors Council.
Article 3 Items affecting both Federal and Local

A) Deputies

I. Deputies
IA. The no member of the Triumvirate shall not have a Deputy.
IB. All members of the Cabinet and Governors shall have a Deputy, appointed by the principals of those respective offices.
II. Control of Units IIA. Workers1. Workers, when created, are under the control of the President. The President must assign the workers to either the Minister of the Interior or a Governor before or after a play session; if the worker is not so assigned it will be under the control of the Designated Player for the duration of the play session.
2. The assignment of a worker is permanent unless the party that has control over the worker releases it back to the President. IIA. Military Land Units1. Military Land Units, when created, are under the control of the Secretary of War.
2. The Secretary of War may assign units to guard settlers or as garrisons in cities.A. Units assigned to guard settlers are under the control President until the settler founds a city. At the founding of a city the President may assign the units guarding that settler to be part of that city’s garrison or may shift control back to the Secretary of War as long as at least one half of the units, rounded up, that guarded the settler become part of the city’s garrison.
B. Units assigned as garrison units fall under the direct control of the Governor of that city.3. Should a unit be left unmoving in a city or a city radius for at least 5 consecutive turns the governor of that city may claim that unit as a garrison unit as long as it has not started to move again.A. There are three exceptions: if a unit is healing, the 5 turns start when healing is completed; if the unit is in defensive works of some sort; or if the unit is picketing the border.

Here is a clean version with struck out and editing marks removed.



The Flexible Government

Section 1 The Federal Government

A) The Legislative Branch
I. This branch consists of one house known as Citizens Assembly.

II. The Citizens Assembly shall consist of all citizens of the Nation.

III. Certain decisions require a vote of the Citizens Assembly may decide : Declare War/Make Peace/Alliance, to change civics or state religion, to begin construction on a Great Wonder/National Wonder/Project, and acceptance of general plan of where to build new cities.

IV. Citizens Assembly issues are decided by a simple majority poll.

V. The Executive Branch must enforce a vote of the Citizens Assembly even if they disagree with the decision.

VI. The Citizens Assembly may impeach members of the Cabinet.


B) The Executive Branch
I. This branch consists of the President and any and all elected and appointed Cabinet Officials and their deputies. IA. The Cabinet will initially consist of the , Secretary of the Interior, Secretary of State, and the Secretary of War. Additional offices may be created as specified in section [insert reference].
[/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT] Note: renumber as needed
IIA. The Powers and Duties of the President1. During the Turnchat the President, or a Representative of the President, may order the ending of play in continuing requires a decision to be made that can only be made by the Citizens Assembly. If the Turns are being played offline the Designated Player must end play if he is forced to make a decision that can only be made by the Citizens Assembly.
2. President is the only officer that may ask the officially ask the Citizens Assembly for a Declaration of WAR. Other officials may request a vote on War from their positions in the Citizens Assembly, but only the President may ask for War.
3. The President will define a budget that all other official may not exceed without permission.
4. The units the President controls:A. The President shall control all Settler and the defensive units assigned to them.
B. The President shall control all naval units.IIB. The Powers and Duties of the Secretary of State1. The Secretary of State shall have control of the Foreign policy of our nation with the exception in the Declaration of War/Peace/Alliance and trade of cities.A. The Secretary of State needs the permission of the Citizens Assembly: War/Peace/Alliance or the giving away of one of our Nation's cities.
IIC. The Powers and Duties of the Secretary of War1. The Secretary of War shall have control of all military land units with the exception of garrisons under the control of Governors and units assigned to settlers.A. The Secretary of War may not attack a city or unit of a neutral or allied Civilization, without the permission of the Citizens Assembly.2. The Secretary of War shall have control of all air units.

[u]IID. The Powers and Duties of the Secretary of the Interior
1. The Secretary of the Interior shall have control over everything which happens inside our borders which has not been assigned to another official.

Note: reformat to make this consistent with the remainder of the laws.

III. Mid-term Changes to Government Structure
A. The President may adapt the government to changing conditions by proclamation, by following the following procedures.
A new position may be created to address an area which is not coveredy by existing offices by appointing a citizen to the office and declaring what the duties of the office are.
The duties of the new office may include part of the duties of other offices, with the approval of the current holders of those offices.
An existing position may be eliminated by requesting the current office holder, if any, to step down, or by announcing that a vacant office will be eliminated instead of appointing a citizen to the office.
Duties of the eliminated office may be distributed among existing offices, with the consent of the existing office holders.
Some or all duties of the office may be assigned to the default holder of unspecified duties, as specified by law.
The duties of the existing positions may be rearranged by requesting the current office holders to modify their areas of responsiblity, provided all affected office holders agree.
Any citizen may request the people to disallow a change by posting a non-approval poll within 48 hours of the appointment.
Any changes made under this provision affect the current term only. If the people wish the changes to persist beyond the end of the term, they must codify the changes as amendments to the relevant laws.
Changes made under this provision must be recorded completely and concisely in a separate thread labelled Term n Procedural Code, for use in determining easily which office is responsible for each decision area.
IV. Vacancies
IVB. Should any vacancy occur in the Cabinet the Deputy shall take over the duties of that office. Should there not be a deputy the President shall appoint an office holder. Appointments may be challenged by any citizen within 48 hours of the appointment by posting a non-approval poll.

Article 2 The Local Government

A) Governors
I. Governors are the elected officials that run cities or states. IA. The Powers and Duties of the Governors:1. The Governors may move any workers or garrison units assigned to them anywhere in there city's radius or state boundaries.
2. The Governor shall work with the Minister of the Interior to decide which improvement shall be built.
3. The Designated Player shall act as Governor of any cities build during his play session at the end of which, the office is declared vacant.
4. The first elected governor of a city or state may select the official flag of that city or state.IB. Powers and Duties of the Governors Council:1. The Governors Council shall consist of the Governors of all Cities and States.
3. The Governors Council may veto the actions requiring a vote of the Citizens Assembly with a 6/10 (60%) majority vote of the council. This veto is only allowed if the vote in the Citizen's Assembly was less than 60%, and may be vetoed by a 60% Citizen's Assembly vote.
IC. States1. No states may be created until our Civilization owns at least five cites.
2. A minimum of 3 cities must exist in a proposed state at the time of its creation.
3. The Creation of a state requires a 6/10 (60%) majority of both the Citizens Assembly and the Governors Council.
Article 3 Items affecting both Federal and Local

A) Deputies

I. Deputies

IB. All members of the Cabinet and Governors shall have a Deputy, appointed by the principals of those respective offices.
II. Control of Units IIA. Workers1. Workers, when created, are under the control of the President. The President must assign the workers to either the Minister of the Interior or a Governor before or after a play session; if the worker is not so assigned it will be under the control of the Designated Player for the duration of the play session.
2. The assignment of a worker is permanent unless the party that has control over the worker releases it back to the President. IIA. Military Land Units1. Military Land Units, when created, are under the control of the Secretary of War.
2. The Secretary of War may assign units to guard settlers or as garrisons in cities.A. Units assigned to guard settlers are under the control President until the settler founds a city. At the founding of a city the President may assign the units guarding that settler to be part of that city’s garrison or may shift control back to the Secretary of War as long as at least one half of the units, rounded up, that guarded the settler become part of the city’s garrison.
B. Units assigned as garrison units fall under the direct control of the Governor of that city.3. Should a unit be left unmoving in a city or a city radius for at least 5 consecutive turns the governor of that city may claim that unit as a garrison unit as long as it has not started to move again.A. There are three exceptions: if a unit is healing, the 5 turns start when healing is completed; if the unit is in defensive works of some sort; or if the unit is picketing the border.

With apologies to AlphaWolf for not obtaining prior permission to lift text from the Triumvirate 5.0,

:twitch: :mad: You even jacked the Governors Council which I only wrote a few hours ago.

-the Wolf

I will comment tomorrow, as I'm not on my home computer atm.

I still feel uncomfortable with this, I'd rather have more of a 'traditional' government system than this, but yes, it works... :sad:

I still feel uncomfortable with this, I'd rather have more of a 'traditional' government system than this, but yes, it works... :sad:

Let me put something together based on DG VII, and see what you think of it. Should also help to counter some of the critics who are looking for a full proposal.

-- Ravensfire

An alternative:

Section A - Government Structure
The government will consist of the Executive Branch, the Legislative Branch and the Judicial Branch. All leaders must determine and implement the will of the Assembly through discussions and polls.

Section B - Executive Positions
The executive branch will initially consist of the President, the Minister of Defense and the Minister of the Interior. Other positions may be added as needed.

The President is the head of the Executive branch, and this position may not be eliminated. They are responsible for control of the slider and resolving disputes between leaders, such as over use of gold. The President is also responsible for all tasks not assigned to another leader.

The Minister of Defense is responsible the defense of Fanatikos and military planning. The Minister also controls the actions of all Military units.

The Minister of the Interior is responsible for worker allocation, city placement and determining and setting provincial boundaries.

Section C - Legislative Branch
The legislative branch is made of the Assembly and the Senate.

The Assembly is made of all citizens of [CIV_NAME], and is responsible for the creation of new laws and Amendments. The Assembly will present all such proposals to the Judiciary for review.

The Senate is made up of the Governors, and is responsible for the well-being of the cities within their province. Each Governor is responsible for the care, management, and use of cities they control.

Each Governor may also setup a civic government for the cities they control in any manner they see fit that does not conflict with Fanatikos laws.

Section D - Judicial Branch]/b]
The Judiciary is as defined in the Constitution.

[b]Section E - Altering the Executive Branch
The elected offices and the duties of each office for the Executive Branch may be changed as needed through proclamation or through citizen demand. When created, new offices must have clearly defined duties. If those duties come from any existing office, the current office holder must agree to transfer, if the office is created by proclamation. If the office is created in mid-term, the office is considered Vacant.

The President may create new office through Proclamation. This is done via a thread in the citizen's forum that declares the name of the new office, the duties of the new office and when the new office will be created.

Citizens may also demand the creation of a new office. Any citizen may post a demand for a new office in the President's official thread. If another citizen seconds the demand within 24 hours of the initial demand, the President must create a discussion within 48 hours. This discussion will last for the longer of 48 hours, or until the discussion dies down. The President will then create a public poll, lasting for 3 days, listing the position name, the duties and when the position would be created. If more citizens vote to support the position than vote to oppose it, the position is created.

Section F - Elections
The Election Office, a citizen’s office supervised by the President, will perform all actions needed for each election cycle.

Each Governor position will be a separate election, and all will be held each term, even if the city does not exist. In the event the city does not exist, the order of priority will be clearly stated in the election description (ie: Gov. 1, Gov. 2).

The regular election cycle starts at the posting of the nomination threads, and concludes when the last poll, including runoff polls, closes. Nomination threads will be posted 8 days before the end of the current term. Election polls will be posted 4 days later, and will list all accepted candidates for each election. Election polls will be marked private, and last for 3 days.

Each position will be granted to the candidate receiving the largest number of votes in that election. In the event of a tie between two or more front runners, a runoff poll shall be opened between those candidates only. This poll shall run for 2 days, and be repeated as often as needed to resolve the tie.

Except for the first term, all terms will start on the 1st of the month, and end on the last day of that month.

Section G Designated Player Pool
During each regular election cycle, a separate thread will be created during the nomination process for DP Candidates. Any citizen that wishes to be a DP must post in this thread. When the election polls are posted, a separate poll, in multi-choice format, listing each candidate will be posted. Citizens will vote their approval for a candidate by selecting their name.

A citizen may run for an elected office and apply to be a DP in the same term. The DP Pool does not count as an elected office.

Each candidate that receives a vote from more than ½ of the citizens that vote in the poll will be accepted as a DP for that term. The Election Office will put together a list of the Designated Players, ordered by the number of votes in support for that term. In the event of a tie, the order of posting in the nomination thread will be used. All DPs that actually ran a game session in the previous term will be put below those that did not, regardless of the number of votes. This list will determine the order that the DPs will be used for game sessions. If there are more game sessions than DPs, start again from the top of the list.

Should the DP pool be empty, the President is responsible for determining who will be the DP for each game session, using any citizen of Fanatikos to serve as DP.

Members of the DP pool may exchange places as they desire, so long as all citizens involved agree.

Section H - Deputies
All Executive and Governor positions will have a deputy. The Deputy is permitted to conduct the affairs of the office as directed by the elected official, or during a planned Absence of the elected official. If no instructions have been posted for an office within 24 hours of the upcoming Game Session, the deputy for that office may post the official instructions for the office.

The Judiciary does not use deputies. In the event of an Absence, a pro-tem justice(s) may be appointed by the Chief Justice (or Judge Advocate if the Chief Justice if absent) and confirmed by the President and the remaining justice if not also absent.

If both the Chief Justice and the Judge Advocate are absent, the Public Defender may appoint pro-tems to the other seats, with Presidential approval.

Section I Vacancies
The President will appoint a citizen to any Vacant office. If a deputy exists for that office, the President must offer the appointment to that citizen. This appointment may be challenged by any citizen by that citizen posting a confirmation poll within 24 hours of the appointment.

If an elected official does not post in the DG forums in 7 days without prior notice, any citizen may request the Judiciary to investigate. The Judiciary, by a majority vote, may declare the office Vacant at the conclusion of the investigation.

Section J - Confirmation Polls
A confirmation poll is used, where permitted by law, to give citizens the opportunity to challenge certain actions. If a challenge poll does not exist for such an action, any citizen may create such a poll. This poll must be created within 24 hours of the action, should ask "Do you approve of <description of action", contain Yes, No and Abstain options, and run for 2 days. If the action concerns a citizen, the poll must be marked private. Otherwise, it must be marked public. When the poll closes, if the majority of citizens, not including abstain, voted No, the action is overturned. Any other result confirms the action.

Section K - Polling Standards
Polls posted by an elected official on an area they control are considered official and binding unless specifically stated otherwise. Polls posted by citizens, by officials outside their area or by officials in their area explicitly noted as such are considered unofficial, and do not bind officials in any way. Officials should, however, take such polls into account during planning.

The description and initial post for all official polls should be stated in a clear and neutral manner.

The initial post should contain a link to all relevant discussion threads. Each option should be explained if not immediately clear. The time frame for the poll, and how the results will be interpreted should also be in the initial post.

All official polls must be open for a minimum of 24 hours to be binding. They are strongly encouraged to be open for at least 3 days.

Official polls should be flagged as "Public" unless directly concerning another Citizen.

Section L - Recalls
Any citizen may create a thread requesting the recall of a specific elected official. This post must include the reason the recall is requested.

Should two additional citizens post in that thread supporting the recall within 24 hours of the initial post, the Chief Justice (or Judge Advocate if the recall is for the Chief Justice) must create a Recall poll. This is a private poll, asking in Yes/No/Abstain format if the elected official should be removed from office. This poll should run for 4 days.

If 60% of the citizens voting support the recall, ignoring abstain, and the total number of votes is greater than 1/2 of the census, the citizen is removed from office, and the office is declared Vacant.

A Recall may be requested no sooner than 7 days after a previous attempt in the same term on the same official.

Section M - Game Sessions
All irreversible game actions must progress during a game session, while reversible game actions (i.e. build queues) that adhere to legal instructions can be prepared offline. During each session, the designated player must provide a log of their actions in sufficient detail to replicate their actions.

A Game Session Instruction Thread must be created at least 2 days before the chat by the Designated Player for that session. Should a thread not be created in a timely manner, the President may create one. Game Sessions must be at least 3 days apart, no more than 7 days apart. The initial post should contain the date and time of the game session, a link to the save to be used for that session, and if the game session will be on-line or off-line. If the game session is off-line, a citizen may post a confirmation poll for that session. If the confirmation poll fails, the DP must reschedule the game session as an on-line session.

All official instructions must be posted in the current game session instruction thread. Instructions must be clear and defined. Officials must post their instructions at least one hour before the scheduled start of the game session. However, officials may make changes to their instructions up to an hour before the chat, so long as those changes are clearly noted. Officials that do not post instructions for a game session are considered to have given the DP complete control over their area for that game session.

The game session may last for as long as there are relevant instructions, until a posted instruction says to hold the session or when the DP decides to end the session. Once a game session is over, the DP must post a summary of that session, a detailed log of their actions, and a save in the instruction thread and in the summary thread.

If the DP for a session does not show up, or is unable to continue, a substitute DP can be chosen for that session. This substitute is chosen from the President, the Minister of Foreign Affairs, the Minister of Defense and the Minister of Trade and Technology, in that order.

Section N - Freedom of Information
All elected officials will create an official thread. This thread will be used to provide updates to the citizens about their office. The information in this thread should updated frequently in order to accurately reflect the current game situation.

Section O - Amending the Code of Laws
Amendments to the Code of Laws must be posted as a Proposed Poll in the discussion thread for at least 24 hours prior to submission to the Judiciary. The discussion on the amendment must have lasted at least 48 hours.

Amendments must pass Judicial Review. If accepted, the Judiciary will post the poll. This poll will be open for 3 days, state the new text and the current text. To pass, an amendment must have a majority of positive votes, ignoring Abstain.
This is 10 minutes of copying much from DG VII, and adding in the Flex stuff. It's lacking a fair amount of polish, but the core is there.

Thoughts?

-- Ravensfire

Wow, just what I had been thinking in my mind. A semi-changed DGVII, with a bit of my proposal - pretty nice, I think it would work.

Two things:
1: Maybe we could also throw in a 'Foreign Advisor' as one of the pre-defined positions. It will be needed pretty much throughout the game, give or take the first 30 turns.

2: Just some formatting problems (Section D isn't bolded, Section I doesn't have a "-" in the heading.)

Overall, very well done. Let's see if we can get some others to comment on it.

Wow, just what I had been thinking in my mind. A semi-changed DGVII, with a bit of my proposal - pretty nice, I think it would work.

Two things:
1: Maybe we could also throw in a 'Foreign Advisor' as one of the pre-defined positions. It will be needed pretty much throughout the game, give or take the first 30 turns.

2: Just some formatting problems (Section D isn't bolded, Section I doesn't have a "-" in the heading.)

Overall, very well done. Let's see if we can get some others to comment on it.
I think we should have a foreign affairs advisor and an interior advisor to start with...
Thats because at the beginning of the game, do we really need a military advisor to decide where to scout? So the military advisor can be created as needed

Also I was thinking that a minister should create the position under them...
For example, if we think there is a need for a Technology and Trade Minister, the Interior Minister can declare that position... This is because the Interior minister should have some control over that person

Wow, just what I had been thinking in my mind. A semi-changed DGVII, with a bit of my proposal - pretty nice, I think it would work.Thanks!

Maybe we could also throw in a 'Foreign Advisor' as one of the pre-defined positions. It will be needed pretty much throughout the game, give or take the first 30 turns. I thought about that, but I figured that with it not being needed immediately, let's leave it out, and let the system work during the first term. That way, if there are issues, we can hammer them out early on.

Just some formatting problems (Section D isn't bolded, Section I doesn't have a "-" in the heading.) Nice catch - thanks!

-- Ravensfire

I think we should have a foreign affairs advisor and an interior advisor to start with...
Thats because at the beginning of the game, do we really need a military advisor to decide where to scout? So the military advisor can be created as needed Well, that's kinda the job of the Military, right? I suspect that the Military would have things to do well before the FA would.

Also I was thinking that a minister should create the position under them...
For example, if we think there is a need for a Technology and Trade Minister, the Interior Minister can declare that position... This is because the Interior minister should have some control over that personI like to keep things straightforward, so if we have just one person managing the create/delete of offices, it's an easier system.

Which reminds me, I need to clarify the "Remove an Office" stuff (official must agree if the Pres decides, or poll via citizens), plus add the Citizen's Initiative section (got a GREAT idea for that). BUT, I won't be doing another version unless Flex somehow comes from behind and wins in the poll. If it doesn't, I get to kick back and relax, and let the Tri supporters finish off their set.

-- Ravensfire

Ravensfire, it'd be great if you could come up with a 'finalized' version of the Flex govt., if we are shooting for our January 1st starting date (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=148777) (proposal for timetable in the thread).

For the sake of continuing the discussion, as I hope such a type of government is created in place of the Triumvirate through legal channels, here's my own proposal.

I borrowed some of ravensfire's stuff from the previous page of this discussion, though incorperated my own ideas.

Of note:
The President has been relieved of all duties in game, and in this proposal occupies a position similar to that of the Censor of the Triumviriate. Ministers of Domestic Affairs, Foregin Affairs, and Defense are all used for in-game stuff, while governors (for ease of definition for below) were moved into the Executive.

All members of the executive can delegate their authority to lower offices that they may create and fill, though the Assembly may do the same.

I also tried to work aspects of the Power of the People section of the Constitution in this draft. References to Initiative, Referendum, and Recall should be checked against their definitions in the Constitution (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=132270).

I also tried to truncate the possibly endless runoff procedure. One runoff only - after that, things are decided by chance.

A. Government Structure
The government will consist of the Executive, Legislative, and Judical Branches.

B. The Legislative Branch
The Legislative Branch of government shall consist of the Citizen’s Assembly. The Assembly consists of all Citizens of the nation.

All decision-making power is derived from the Assembly, which represents the collective will of the nation. This collective will must be defined through the Power of the People as defined in Article C of the Constitution.

C. The Executive Branch
The Executive Branch shall consist of the President, the Minister of Domestic Affairs, the Minister of Foreign Affairs, the Minister of Defense, and the Governors of the Provinces. Persons holding these offices may be referred to as ‘Executive Officers.’

The President shall preside over the Citizen’s Assembly. He shall be responsible for managing and validating elections, as well as validating polls as meeting the requirements of a Referendum, Initiative, or Recall. The President must create and follow Procedures for these operations, to which he must abide for his term.

The Minister of Domestic Affairs shall be responsible for worker allocation, city placement, taxation, research, culture, Civic adjustment, religion, Great People, Wonder and Team Project construction, and other related affairs. The Minister is also responsible for cities without a Governor.

The Minister of Foreign Affairs shall be responsible for all matters pertaining to foreign Civilizations, including trade and other diplomatic agreements.

The Minister of Defense shall be responsible for the control of all units under the jurisdiction of the nation, excluding settlers, workers, and Great People.

The Governors shall be responsible for one province each. Individual Governors are responsible for the care and management of all cities within their assigned provincial borders (excluding Wonder and Team Project construction, which must be assigned by the Minister of Domestic Affairs).

All Officers of the Executive Branch may create lower offices to which they may delegate portions of their authority, to which they may appoint or recall Citizens as they please. The duties of these lower offices must be publicly defined, and the office may be closed at any time by the creating official. These lower offices may be created, filled and closed via an Initiative of the Citizen’s Assembly. All persons appointed to fill these lower offices may be Recalled by the Citizen’s Assembly. Lower Offices created by the Assembly may not be closed by the Executive Officer to which the lower office is responsible, while the Assembly may close lower offices created by an Executive Officer. Irregardless of their origins, all lower offices shall close at the end of term during which they were created.

D. Elections
The President shall be the chief officer in charge of elections. He and other relevant appointed officials must act in a fair and unbiased manner.

The regular election cycle starts at the posting of the nomination threads, and concludes when the last poll, including runoff polls, closes. Nomination threads will be posted 8 days before the end of the current term. Election polls will be posted 4 days later, and will list all accepted candidates for each election. Election polls will be marked private, and last for 3 days.

A citizen may only run for a single office during a regular election cycle.

Each position will be granted to the candidate receiving the largest number of votes in that election. In the event of a tie between two or more front runners, a runoff poll shall be opened between those candidates only. This poll shall run for 2 days. Should this runoff poll also result in a tie between two or more front runners, the election shall be decided by a fair game of chance (for example, a coin flip or a random number generator) agreed upon by all involved candidates, and conducted by the newly-elected President. Should the Presidency be at stake in the runoff, the game of chance shall be conducted by a citizen agreed upon by the candidates.

Except for the first term, all terms will start on the 1st of the month, and end on the last day of that month.

E. Designated Player (DP) Pool
During each regular election cycle, a separate thread will be created during the nomination process for DP Candidates. Any citizen that wishes to be a DP must post in this thread. When the election polls are posted, a separate poll, in multi-choice format, listing each candidate will be posted. Citizens will vote their approval for a candidate by selecting their name.

A citizen may run for an elected office and apply to be a DP in the same term. The DP Pool does not count as an elected office.

Each candidate that receives a vote from more than ½ of the citizens that vote in the poll will be accepted as a DP for that term. The President will put together a list of the Designated Players, ordered by the number of votes in support for that term. In the event of a tie, the order of posting in the nomination thread will be used. All DPs that actually ran a game session in the previous term will be put below those that did not, regardless of the number of votes. This list will determine the order that the DPs will be used for game sessions. If there are more game sessions than DPs, start again from the top of the list.

Should the DP pool be empty, the President is responsible for determining who will be the DP for each game session, using any citizen of the nation to serve as DP.

Members of the DP pool may exchange places as they desire, so long as all citizens involved agree.

F. Deputies
All Executive Officers will have a deputy. The Deputy is permitted to conduct the affairs of the office as directed by the elected official, or during a planned Absence of the elected official. If no instructions have been posted for an office within 24 hours of the upcoming Game Session, the deputy for that office may post the official instructions for the office.

The Judiciary does not use deputies. In the event of an Absence, a pro-tem justice(s) may be appointed by the Chief Justice (or Judge Advocate if the Chief Justice is absent) and confirmed by the President and the remaining justice if not also absent.

If both the Chief Justice and the Judge Advocate are absent, the Public Defender may appoint pro-tem members to the other seats, with Presidential approval.

In the event of absence by all three members of the Judiciary, the President may fill all offices with pro-tem members.

G. Vacancies
The President will appoint a citizen to any Vacant office. If a deputy exists for that office, the President must offer the appointment to that citizen. The appointment may be challenged by any citizen by that citizen posting a Recall poll within 24 hours of the appointment.

If an elected official does not post in the Democracy Game forums in 4 days without prior notice, any citizen may request the Judiciary to investigate. The Judiciary, by a majority vote, may declare the office Vacant at the conclusion of the investigation.

H. Polling Standards

The initial post should contain a link to all relevant discussion threads, and should define the poll as either an Initiative or Referendum. Each option should be explained if not immediately clear. The question and answers of the poll must be unbiased. The time frame for the poll, and how the results will be interpreted should also be in the initial post.

All Initiative and Referendum polls must be open for a minimum of 24 hours to be binding. They are strongly encouraged to be open for at least 3 days. They must be flagged as "Public" unless directly concerning another Citizen.

Should a citizen question the validity of an Initiative or Referendum, the President shall judge the qualifications of the poll. Should all qualifications be met, the President shall validate the result. Should some requirement be lacking, the President shall invalidate the poll, and its decision will be considered that of an Opinion Poll and therefore not binding.

I. Recalls
Any citizen may create a thread requesting the recall of a specific official. This post must include the reason the recall is requested. Should two additional citizens post in that thread supporting the recall within 24 hours of the initial post, the Chief Justice (or Judge Advocate if the recall is for the Chief Justice) must create a Recall poll.

Additionally, an individual citizen may post a Recall poll 24 hours after the President has appointed a citizen to a vacant office.

This is a private poll, asking in Yes/No/Abstain format if the elected official should be removed from office. This poll should run for 4 days.

If 60% of the citizens voting support the recall, ignoring abstain, and the total number of votes is greater than 1/2 of the census, the citizen is removed from office, and the office is declared Vacant.

A Recall may be requested no sooner than 7 days after a previous attempt in the same term on the same official.

J. Game Sessions

All irreversible game actions must progress during a game session, while reversible game actions (i.e. build queues) that adhere to legal instructions can be prepared offline. During each session, the designated player must provide a log of their actions in sufficient detail to replicate their actions.

A Game Session Instruction Thread must be created at least 2 days before the chat by the Designated Player for that session. Should a thread not be created in a timely manner, the President may create one. Game Sessions must be at least 3 days apart, no more than 7 days apart. The initial post should contain the date and time of the game session, a link to the save to be used for that session, and if the game session will be on-line or off-line. If the game session is off-line, a citizen may post a confirmation poll for that session. If the confirmation poll fails, the DP must reschedule the game session as an on-line session.

All official instructions must be posted in the current game session instruction thread. Instructions must be clear and defined. Officials must post their instructions at least one hour before the scheduled start of the game session. However, officials may make changes to their instructions up to an hour before the chat, so long as those changes are clearly noted. Officials that do not post instructions for a game session are considered to have given the DP complete control over their area for that game session.

The game session may last for as long as there are relevant instructions, until a posted instruction says to hold the session or when the DP decides to end the session. Once a game session is over, the DP must post a summary of that session, a detailed log of their actions, and a save in the instruction thread and in the summary thread.

If the DP for a session does not show up, or is unable to continue, a substitute DP can be chosen for that session. This substitute is chosen from the President, the Minister of Foreign Affairs, the Minister of Defense and the Minister of Trade and Technology, in that order.

K. Freedom of Information
All elected officials will create an official thread. This thread will be used to provide updates to the citizens about their office. The information in this thread should updated frequently in order to accurately reflect the current game situation.

L. Amending the Code of Laws
Amendments to the Code of Laws must be posted as a Proposed Poll in the discussion thread for at least 24 hours prior to submission to the Judiciary. The discussion on the amendment must have lasted at least 48 hours.

Amendments must pass Judicial Review. If accepted, the Judiciary will post the poll. This poll will be open for 3 days, state the new text and the current text. To pass, an amendment must have a majority of positive votes, ignoring Abstain.

I also tried to truncate the possibly endless runoff procedure. One runoff only - after that, things are decided by chance.
That wouldn't work. The president would have his own opinion on who should win, and could claim that person won the coin flip. I suggest that we continue with the runoff polls.

Except for the first term, all terms will start on the 1st of the month, and end on the last day of that month.
Technically, the first term would never end, as its end is never defined.

Otherwise, I like it. :)

I think the 'game of chance' is still workable. Perhaps the people in the election could agree to leave that duty to one person they all trust, or the responsibility could go to a mod.

I think the 'game of chance' is still workable. Perhaps the people in the election could agree to leave that duty to one person they all trust, or the responsibility could go to a mod.
There's a variety of means to handle a game of chance, all of which are workable. I would suggest that the run-off post should include the specific provisions to break another tie. This would give adequate public notice and commentary on the method.

-- Ravensfire

:mischief: Yeah, there are plenty of game of chance scenarios, but we could always make it a violent knife fight to the death ala "Dune." Those are much more entertaining. :lol:

Or maybe a contest to see who can name all of the unique units from CivIV first. :)

Oh, or bribes. Bribes really work well. I'm a big fan of gift cards. :dance:

Okay, I'll stop now.

C. The Executive Branch

[...]

The Minister of Foreign Affairs shall be responsible for all matters pertaining to foreign Civilizations, including trade and other diplomatic agreements.

The Minister of Defense shall be responsible for the control of all units under the jurisdiction of the nation, excluding settlers, workers, and Great People.

Obviously there is overlap here. According to the text above, the Minister of Foreign can declare War, and so can the Minister of Defense by simply attacking a foreign unit. Do we want that?

On a purely technically note, I suggest replacing the term "Minister of Defense" with "Minister of Military Affairs". First, "defense" is just political BS for "military". Second, "defense" starts with the letter "D", same as "domestic", and makes abbreviation easily confusing. Third, it sounds nicer when three primary ministers' are all named "Minister of ABC Affairs" (abbreviated as "DM", "FM", "MM"). I further suggest lower offices created in-game to be named "Bureau of XYZ" (and the official "Chief of XYZ") to seperate them from the three primary offices.

Should this runoff poll also result in a tie between two or more front runners, the election shall be decided by a fair game of chance (for example, a coin flip or a random number generator) agreed upon by all involved candidates, and conducted by the newly-elected President. Should the Presidency be at stake in the runoff, the game of chance shall be conducted by a citizen agreed upon by the candidates.

I dislike the idea of making political decisions by chance very, very much. This is anything but serious, it would be uncalled for anywhere in the real world.

I suggest the winner to be appointed (within the candidated who have tied, of course) if the runoff election ties again. The appointing power should be given to the former office holder (the idea being that the former office holder is the person who knows the office best). As a side effect, a challenger has to get more votes in order to beat an official holder running for re-election, which is not uncommon in the real world (and not even limited to politic, the Chess World Champion for example can defend his title by tieing with the challenger).

In case the office is new and does not have a former office holder, the one to appoint the winner should be the official oversighting the office in question at the point when the office is created. Note this is not equal to "at the point when it's decided that the office be created". For example, when we decide a Bereau of Settlement be created when the next election period starts, we should make sure that the said Bereau is official created *after* the election of Minister of Domestic Affairs, so the new Minister, not the old one, has the un-tieing power.

A official with the power of appointing the winner of tied election should be allowed to transfer the power to someone he deems appropriate - he can do this inofficially anyway by just listen to that person.

Obviously, the untieing power for the presidential election of the first term is the one left in this "boot-up chain". I think we can live with the exception that this election has to run-off as often as necessary (beside the fact that the first term election are already over now).

E. Designated Player (DP) Pool

[...]

Each candidate that receives a vote from more than ½ of the citizens that vote in the poll will be accepted as a DP for that term. The President will put together a list of the Designated Players, ordered by the number of votes in support for that term. In the event of a tie, the order of posting in the nomination thread will be used.

Better make it clear: "The order of formally accepting the nomination as DP should be used."

Your draft eliminate the power of the President to play the game himself at any time he chose to instead of using the next candidate from the DP pool. Is that intentional? Anyway, I support this elimination.

J. Game Sessions

[...]

If the DP for a session does not show up, or is unable to continue, a substitute DP can be chosen for that session. This substitute is chosen from the President, the Minister of Foreign Affairs, the Minister of Defense and the Minister of Trade and Technology, in that order.

That last office is yet undefined. :crazyeye: Also, do you really mean "chosen from" instead of "chosen by"? I think it should be "chosen by" - or better yet, "appointed by". The order of "appointers" should be the Prez, Domestic Minister, Foreign Minister, Military Minister.

L. Amending the Code of Laws
Amendments to the Code of Laws must be posted as a Proposed Poll in the discussion thread for at least 24 hours prior to submission to the Judiciary. The discussion on the amendment must have lasted at least 48 hours.

I'm confused. Aren't "24 hours" and "48 hours" referring to the same thing and thus conflicting?

The President seems almost powerless in this version. The President is the one man who can tie the rest of the government into a (mostly) coherent vision. How is he supposed to do that if his only power is declaring votes?

Now for the meat of the statement:
All Officers of the Executive Branch may create lower offices to which they may delegate portions of their authority, to which they may appoint or recall Citizens as they please. The duties of these lower offices must be publicly defined, and the office may be closed at any time by the creating official. These lower offices may be created, filled and closed via an Initiative of the Citizen’s Assembly. All persons appointed to fill these lower offices may be Recalled by the Citizen’s Assembly. Lower Offices created by the Assembly may not be closed by the Executive Officer to which the lower office is responsible, while the Assembly may close lower offices created by an Executive Officer. Irregardless of their origins, all lower offices shall close at the end of term during which they were created.

I'd recommend modifying it to this:

All Officers of the Executive Branch may create lower offices to which they may delegate portions of their authority. Upon creation, the Officer must publicly define the powers of the office & appoint its head. The head of an office controls the powers given to it by its superior Officer. The head also chooses a deputy to advise him and control the office when he is unavailable. The superior Officer can replace an office head at any time. An office head can replace his deputy at any time.

An Officer can close a subordinate lower office he created at any time during that term. At the end of that term, the Citizen's Assembly must vote whether to keep the recently-created lower office or disband it. Once the Citizen's Assembly approves a lower office this way, its superior Officer loses the power to disband it; he keeps the power to replace its head, though.

A successful Citizen's Assembly Initiative can disband any lower office.

Only Officers should be able to create lower offices, otherwise the Citizen's Assembly could delegate all of an Officer's powers to lower offices. The purpose of a lower office should be to aid their superior Officer with the details of his decisions, not wrest control with him. Therefore a lower offices' workers should only answer to their superior Officer (who in turn has to answer to the public anyway, although in extreme cases the Assembly could just disband the office completely).

After a trial term, the Assembly can vote to permanently keep or disband a lower office, keeping useful offices in the government.

I'm sure this has been stated before by other people, but my biggest concern with this sort of system is that it delegates all positions below that of the Minister of XYZ to the whim of the associated minister. There is certainly precedent for a certain amount of this in many forms of government, but here we are talking about three elected officials having almost complete control of the government. In essence we are saying that the mandate of three offices should be seen as giving carte blanche to its elected officials over any aspect of their operation.

I dislike this sort of power because it can easily be manipulated into a cronyistic system of empowerment for certain groups.

If an official decides that an office is neccessary for the operation of his department, be it DA, FA, or MA then I would suggest that they have the power to appoint a person for the office for the amount of time between the creation of the office to the conclusion of the current term (like a recess appointment). After being ratified by a vote of the citizens, that office holder should also be elected by the citizens just as the Ministers and President would be. If the Minister in charge decides the office is no longer needed he is free remove the office with the approval of the citizen's assembly.

I'm sure this has been stated before by other people, but my biggest concern with this sort of system is that it delegates all positions below that of the Minister of XYZ to the whim of the associated minister. There is certainly precedent for a certain amount of this in many forms of government, but here we are talking about three elected officials having almost complete control of the government. In essence we are saying that the mandate of three offices should be seen as giving carte blanche to its elected officials over any aspect of their operation.

I dislike this sort of power because it can easily be manipulated into a cronyistic system of empowerment for certain groups.

If an official decides that an office is neccessary for the operation of his department, be it DA, FA, or MA then I would suggest that they have the power to appoint a person for the office for the amount of time between the creation of the office to the conclusion of the current term (like a recess appointment). After being ratified by a vote of the citizens, that office holder should also be elected by the citizens just as the Ministers and President would be. If the Minister in charge decides the office is no longer needed he is free remove the office with the approval of the citizen's assembly.

There are always recalls if the citizens as a whole do not like an appointment/election. These 3 officials do not have complete control, however. They cannot change anything in a specific city, as that lies to the governors. Deciding what is or isn't a law falls to the Judiciary. They still do hold a good amount of power, however. I do feel this is better than dividing it up into many small offices that are pretty powerless. I think we give a certain amount of trust the officials that WE ELECT - by an election we can choose the person we believe will do the best job.

I don't see how a 'complete' control of the government couldn't be accomplished under, say the Triumvirate. You would just need more people involved to 'gain power'. However, I feel this situation is highly unlikely, and if it does occur, we can recall them. This isn't an unlimited power spree.

Your latter paragraph is certainly reasonable, for positions that are long-term and unlikely to not have a need for, such as say, a Civic minister, once we research techs that enable civic changes. This government and overarching idea was creating to deal with the current situation in the game, much as people had suggested in the Civ3 DG that our Code of Laws change as our real game government system changed. That could be something fun to play around with...

Anyway, I have one last comment for the ruleset Oct posted too: add some sort of close under Deputies that makes only the 3 main Executive officials have deputies, not appointed officials (have a Deputy of the Secretary of the Navy would be pretty useless - it would only create clutter and make a useless position). I will try to post an updated version soon.

BTW, I will also try to work on this / get feedback on it through this DG as it seems Triumvirate has won, but I will try to get this working for DG2. ;)

One last question: since you asked that question about the control of the goernment, do you have any suggestions on limiting power maybe? I'd welcome any ideas you have to solve your own concern.


edit: I also agree on all counts with Blkbird.

Ehh... One more oversight on my part. I should add missionaries to the list of units the Military leader can't control...

Thanks for the comments!

@Blkbird:

I assumed that declarations of war were the arena of the Foreign Affairs Ministry, given that nothing about foreign affairs falls under the Military's category. Because a declaration of war would be required (which he can't authorize), the ordered unit move would be illegal. A minister could order a unit to climb up a mountain peak all he wants, but it'll never happen - that kind of thing. You're right, though - adding a specific bit about declarations of war to the FA Ministry should do the trick so as to clean up any misconceptions.

There are actually a few examples of tied elections being decided by chance in the real world - Tied elections in Nevada are decided by lot (example story (http://www.newsreview.com/reno/Content?oid=oid%3A19198)). You're right, it isn't a good precedent in general for a democracy, but it's the fastest, fairest way to get done - no offense, but the appointment thing is more potentially biased than my system. I'd feel comfortable removing it, at least, and continuning the practice of the never-ending runoff if we could put in a clause simply allowing the previous term's official to continue working while the election is decided. That's my true concern in all this - if runoffs run too long, we enter a legal gray area with a position that isn't clearly filled.

Thanks for the rest of suggestions. The changes will be posted tomorrow - it's late now, and I'm tired. :p

@Mike Lemmer:

The President isn't precluded from heading up any sort of organizational effort. Any citizen can try to organize the various strands of government. The problem is that there isn't any game power we can give the President to this effect - it intrudes on the various Ministers or Governers, who are probably best left controlling all areas of relevant interest for the sake of coherence. And, if we revert to the tradition Presidental role of being the only DP, we eliminate a good deal of progress that we've made with the DP Pool. I would suggest adding that the President is the 'head of state for the nation' to imply some sort of suggestion that he should take charge, but I would refrain from actually mandating something which would go against the loose-government philosophy of this document.

As for having the Executive Offices excessively burdened by the Assembly, well, it just seems like that's an unlikely scenario. If the Assembly was that angry at an official, it could simply recall him.

@Bengeance:

One of the key things about lower offices here is that the entire process can be controlled by the Citizen's Assembly through the power of Initiative. Via a valid vote, the Assembly, under my plan, could theoretically create ABC Office with DEF powers and with GHI citizen as it's head.

This combats the potential for cronyism under an appointment system. The Assembly can recall these appointees as needed, and could fill the office as desired - in fact, nothing says the Initiative to fill an office couldn't be formed like an election, with options for 'Citizen A,' 'Citizen B,' or 'No, allow the Minister to make the appointment.'

@Ginger_Ale:

I wouldn't mandate deputies for the lower offices, but I wouldn't eliminate them either. Flexibility in the system is key - not required but not restricted.

There are actually a few examples of tied elections being decided by chance in the real world - Tied elections in Nevada are decided by lot (example story (http://www.newsreview.com/reno/Content?oid=oid%3A19198)). You're right, it isn't a good precedent in general for a democracy, but it's the fastest, fairest way to get done - no offense, but the appointment thing is more potentially biased than my system.

I did present arguments for the appointment rule, I'd be ready to discuss those arguments or any further arguments for and/or against the rule.

I have no problem with "potentially biased" as politics is always biased, if you will. Leaving things to chance is the absolute last resort and in my opinion, it can always be prevented because there's always better alternatives.

The election process is a very important part of the law, maybe we should post a poll and let the citizens decide?

Attention please!

While we're discussing how the future "Flex" CoL should look like, I've started a thread to discuss the acutal process of chaning the CoL, assuming it will happen. I invite you all to participate in the discussion there:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=3560837

I think it is not nessacry to completely change the code of laws. As pointed out by myself and Daveshack, this tri we are under is but a few steps awy from being a flex with a diff name. Making the tri three seperate offices makes us a step closer, and also the ability to add and subtract is in the Tri code of laws! After this the arguement boils down to its to wordy and thats no reason to overthrow a government form! I think if we all sit down and read the Tri and think, many of the Flex supporters would be more than satisfied!

I think that Swissempire makes a valid point. Other then not defining what the 'lower offices' are, I see little substantive difference.

So in the role of Chief Mischief Maker, I present an alternative Flexible system, which is also an alternative to the Triumverate system. For those that are familiar with the US Constitution this may bring about deja vu. A substantial difference is that a Bill needs only be initially passed by one House, though a vetoed bill must still be passed by both Houses. Perhaps this will have enough flexibility and room for growth and change that is desired. At the least I hope it generates discussion.

Article. I.
Section. 1.
All legislative Powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress, which shall consist of a Senate and House of Representatives.
Section. 2.
The House of Representatives shall be composed of all Citizens; unless that citizen chooses not to or has been restricted by impeachment or Supreme Court ruling.
The House of Representatives shall choose their Speaker and other Officers; and shall have the sole Power of Impeachment. The Speaker of the House shall provide the unified voice of the House of Representatives and initiate discussion amongst its members.
Section. 3.
The Senate shall be composed of 1 for every 4 population points, or fraction thereof, for each city, plus 2 additional for the Capitol and other City Government cities; and each Senator shall have one Vote. The term of a Senator shall last 1 month.
The Vice President shall be President of the Senate, but shall have no Vote, unless they be equally divided.
The Senate shall choose their other Officers, and also a President pro tempore, in the Absence of the Vice President, or when he shall exercise the Office of President.
Section. 4.
The Congress shall assemble at least once in every week, and such Meeting shall be on Monday, unless they shall by Law appoint a different Day.
Section. 5.
The Senate shall be the Judge of the Elections, Returns and Qualifications of its own Members, and a Majority shall constitute a Quorum to do Business; but a smaller Number may be authorized to compel the Attendance of absent Members, in such Manner, and under such Penalties as the Senate may provide.
Each House may determine the Rules of its Proceedings, punish its Members for disorderly Behaviour, and, with the Concurrence of two thirds, expel a Member.
Each House shall keep a Journal of its Proceedings, and publish the same; and the Yeas and Nays of the Members of either House on any question shall be entered on the Journal.
Section. 6.
No Senator or Representative shall, during the Time for which he was elected, be appointed to any civil Office under the Authority of the Nation; and no Person holding any Office under the Nation, shall be a Member of either House during his Continuance in Office.
Section. 7.
All Bills for raising Revenue by adjusting the balance of science, tax and culture shall originate in the House of Representatives.
Every Bill which shall have passed the House of Representatives or the Senate, shall, before it become a Law, be presented to the President: If he approve he shall play it, but if not he shall return it, with his Objections to that House in which it shall have originated, who shall enter the Objections at large on their Journal, and proceed to reconsider it. If after such Reconsideration two thirds of that House shall agree to pass the Bill, it shall be sent, together with the Objections, to the other House, by which it shall likewise be considered, and if approved by two thirds of that House, it shall become a Law. But in all such Cases the Votes of both Houses shall be determined by yeas and Nays, and the Names of the Persons voting for and against the Bill shall be entered on the Journal of each House respectively. If any Bill shall not be returned by the President within ten Days (Sundays excepted) after it shall have been presented to him, the Same shall be a Law, in like Manner as if he had signed it.
Every Order, Resolution, or Vote to which the Concurrence of the Senate and House of Representatives may be necessary shall be presented to the President; and before the Same shall take Effect, shall be approved by him, or being disapproved by him, shall be repassed by two thirds of the Senate and House of Representatives, according to the Rules and Limitations prescribed in the Case of a Bill.
Section. 8.
The Congress shall have Power provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the Nation by selection among the avialable civic options that may arise;
To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations;
To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization for the processing of new citizen applications;
To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts by providing a clear and defined couse through the tech tree;
To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;
To declare War, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water including the use and care of captured workers and cities;
To raise and support Armies as well as provide and maintain a Navy by authorizing Upgrades and setting threshholds for size and Foriegn deployment in a manner that would extract funds from the Treasury of the Nation;--And
To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the Community, or in any Department or Officer thereof.
Article. II.
Section. 1.
The executive Power shall be vested in a President. He shall hold his Office during the Term of 1 Month, and, together with the Vice President, chosen for the same Term.
In the case of the removal of the President from office, resignation, or inability to discharge the powers and duties of the siad office, the same shall devolve on the Vice President, and the Congress may by law provide for the case of removal resignation or inability, both of the President and Vice President declaring what Officer shall then act as President, and such Officer shall act accordingly, untill the disability be removed, or a President shall be elected.
Section. 2.
The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy; he may require the Opinion, in writing, of the principal Officer in each of the executive Departments, upon any Subject relating to the Duties of their respective Offices.
He shall have Power, by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, to make Treaties, provided two thirds of the Senators present concur, with the exception of initial peace treaties which may be accepted without Senate consent; and he shall nominate, and by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, shall appoint Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, Judges of the inferior Courts, and all other Officers of the United States, whose Appointments are not herein otherwise provided for, and which shall be established by Law: but the Congress may by Law vest the Appointment of such inferior Officers, as they think proper, in the President alone, in the Courts of Law, or in the Heads of Departments.
The President shall have Power to fill up all Vacancies that may happen during the Recess of the Senate, by granting Commissions which shall expire at the End of their next Session.
Section. 3.
He shall from time to time give to the Congress Information of the State of the Union, and recommend to their Consideration such Measures as he shall judge necessary and expedient; he may, on extraordinary Occasions, convene both Houses, or either of them; he shall receive Ambassadors and other public Ministers from foriegn nations, and excepting measures restricted by Congessional regulation, may accept any such proposals; he shall take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed, and shall Commission all the Officers of the United States.
Section. 4.
The President, Vice President and all civil Officers, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors.
Article III.
Section. 1.
The Administrative Power of the Community shall be vested in one supreme Court. Inferior Courts shall be established to conduct civil procedings, and monitor elections. The Judges, both of the supreme and inferior Courts, shall hold their Offices during good Behaviour.
Section. 2.
The judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity, arising under this Constitution, the Laws of the Nation, and Treaties made, or which shall be made, under their Authority.
The Supreme Court shall have the sole Power to try all Impeachments. And no Person shall be convicted without the Concurrence of two thirds of the Members present.
Judgment in Cases of Impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from Office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any Office of honor, Trust or Profit under the Community: but the Party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to Indictment, Trial, Judgment and Punishment, according to Law.
In all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, the supreme Court shall have original Jurisdiction. In all the other Cases before mentioned, the supreme Court shall have appellate Jurisdiction, both as to Law and Fact, with such Exceptions, and under such Regulations as the Congress shall make.
Article. IV.
The Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall deem it necessary, shall enact Amendments to this Code of Laws;
Article. V.
This Code of Laws, and the Laws of the Nation which shall be made in Pursuance thereof shall be the supreme Law of the Land.
The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and all executive and judicial Officers of the Nation shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Code of Laws.


Before it comes up, Governors and Minister/Secretary/Director of State/TreasuryMilitary ect. are not defined but expressly allowed and desired.
Where is the referendum and recall and other 'Power to the People' things that we need to have? The 'Power of the People' is in the House of Representatives which is equal to the Senate in most matters. House gets to set the budget and conduct impeachments, Senate gets to confirm or deny Presidential appointments, other then those differences they are equal. So why have a Senate at all? By having a more exclusive legislative branch, it provides more focus. Senators are elected to get things done and as such I would expect more bills to be proposed and passed by the senate. The representative gives each citizen a voice though and would provide the same things that including referendum, initiatives and recalls would provide while also expanding what is possible from the citizens beyond those measures.

There are yet flaws apparent to me which I have not been able to adress to my satisfaction. Namely what constitutes a quorum for the House of Representitives. Under the strict wording of the Constitution every memeber of CFC is potentially already a citizen of the DGame. Even limiting the House of Representitives to those who have registered as citizens makes for a large base where getting half to vote on a bill would be impressive. Perhaps making the quorum relate to the most recent election; one half of all votes. That would almost dilute it. Then again, perhaps a majority of interested Representatives/Citizens (in other words whoever shows up to vote) should be sufficient to pass a bill into law.

Excuse me, von_Clausewitz, you call that system of yours "flexible"? Adding an extra layer (the Senate) to the decision making process is "flexbile" how?

I am not in favour of this government you propose. First of all a LOT of effort has gone into creating the Flex and Tri governments, and a LOT of work shall be needed to create this into a form of government a majority of the people agrees with. Furthermore, seeing as this government requires a continuous large workforce, I don't think it's really workable.
On a personal note, I don't think it's a good idea to largely base our government on the existing US government. A great number of people from all over the world have worked hard together here to create a new kind of government containing aspects of several of the world's (democratic) governments also containing uniqe elements. Simply completely basing our government on an existing one would not do justice to the incredible amount of work that was put into the creation of both the Tri and Flex government.

Having said that I'd like to add that I surely do respect the amount of effort you put into creating this government, and that I sincerely hope you shall not cease to make contributions like this one in the future.

I think it is not nessacry to completely change the code of laws. As pointed out by myself and Daveshack, this tri we are under is but a few steps awy from being a flex with a diff name. Making the tri three seperate offices makes us a step closer, and also the ability to add and subtract is in the Tri code of laws! After this the arguement boils down to its to wordy and thats no reason to overthrow a government form! I think if we all sit down and read the Tri and think, many of the Flex supporters would be more than satisfied!

Wordiness IS an issue. The purpose of the Flexible government is to be 'light' yet hold everything it needs to work effectively. It's open ended and can be simple or complex as needed. I feel the Triumvirate is too wordy, too long, and has too many rules.

von_Clausewitz, read what I wrote above. That government is too 'specific' and TOO LONG. Btw, personally, I don't like the idea of a house and a senate (Congress), like the US government. Call me a traditionalist, but I just don't like them. So far I'm only backing Octavian's ruleset (update it with the comments made here, Oct, if you can, if not I will do so soon).


I am not in favour of this government you propose. First of all a LOT of effort has gone into creating the Flex and Tri governments, and a LOT of work shall be needed to create this into a form of government a majority of the people agrees with. Furthermore, seeing as this government requires a continuous large workforce, I don't think it's really workable.
What?? "Continuous large workforce"? Let's count the Triumvirate: 8 positions, plus 4 deputies, and governors. The Flexible, posted by Oct, has ... 4, and 3 deputies (assuming it will be edited so only the defined positions have deputies - President has no deputy), plus governors. That's 7 positions to 12 - using math, I think the Flexible has less. ;)

Sure it can go more, but only if the citizens/officials deem it is necessary. It can ebb and flow with the participation of the demogamers - lots of people active? Great! - we can have a large number of officials. Getting low on participation near the end? Fine - we can stick with the basics. It's flexible for a reason.

Sorry for the delay. I've just completed my semester finals... :crazyeye:

I tried for cleaner formatting this time around, so people can better reference specific sections.


The Proposed Flexible Government

Government Structure
The government will consist of the Executive, Legislative, and Judical Branches.
No one citizen may simultaneously hold positions in both the Executive and Judicial Branches of government.

The Legislative Branch
The Legislative Branch of government shall consist of the Citizen’s Assembly. The Assembly consists of all Citizens of the nation.

All decision-making power is derived from the Assembly, which represents the collective will of the nation. This collective will must be defined through the Power of the People as defined in Article C of the Constitution.

The total number of active citizens shall be defined by the Census. The Census shall be equal to the total number of votes (counting absetentions) cast in the lowest-participation contested election of the current term.

The Executive Branch
The Executive Branch shall consist of the President, the Minister of Domestic Affairs, the Minister of Foreign Affairs, the Minister of Military Affairs, and the Governors of the Provinces. Persons holding these offices may be referred to as ‘Executive Officers.’

The President shall preside over the Citizen’s Assembly, and shall be considered the head of state of the nation. He shall be responsible for managing and validating elections, as well as validating polls as meeting the legal requirements of a Referendum, Initiative, or Recall, all as defined by Article C of the Constitution.

The Minister of Domestic Affairs shall be responsible for worker improvements (including control of workers, as well as the power to assign certain workers to certain provinces if so desired), city placement (including settlers), taxation, research, culture, Civic adjustment, religion (including missionaries), Great People, Wonder and Team Project construction, and other related affairs. The Minister is also responsible for the care and management of all cities without a Governor.

The Minister of Foreign Affairs shall be responsible for all matters pertaining to foreign Civilizations, including trade, declarations of war, peace treaties, Open Border Agreements, Mutual Defense Agreements, and all other diplomatic affairs.

The Minister of Military Affairs shall be responsible for the control of all units under the jurisdiction of the nation, excluding settlers, workers, missionaries, and Great People.

The Governors shall be responsible for one province each. Individual Governors are responsible for the care and management of all cities within their assigned provincial borders (excluding Wonder and Team Project construction, which must be assigned by the Minister of Domestic Affairs). Governors also control all workers that may be assigned to their provinces by the Minister of Domestic Affairs.

No one citizen may simultaneously hold two Executive Branch positions at once (deputies and members of lower offices excluded).

All Officers of the Executive Branch may create lower offices to which they may delegate portions of their authority.
Executive Officers may appoint or remove Citizens as they please for the offices that are under their jurisdiction, expect in cases where the Citizen's Assembly has chosen to fill the office.
The duties of these lower offices must be publicly defined, and the office may be closed at any time by the Executive Officer to which it is responsible, except in cases where the Citizen's Assembly may chose to create or close a lower office.
These lower offices may be created, filled and closed via an Initiative of the Citizen’s Assembly.
All persons appointed to fill these lower offices may be Recalled by the Citizen’s Assembly. Lower Offices created by the Assembly may not be closed by the Executive Officer to which the lower office is responsible, while the Assembly may close lower offices created by an Executive Officer.
Irregardless of their origins, all lower offices shall close at the end of term during which they were created.

Elections
The President shall be the chief officer in charge of elections. He and other relevant appointed officials must act in a fair and unbiased manner.

The regular election cycle starts at the posting of the nomination threads, and concludes when the last poll, including runoff polls, closes. Nomination threads will be posted 8 days before the end of the current term. Election polls will be posted 4 days later, and will list all accepted candidates for each election. Election polls will be marked private, and last for 3 days.

A citizen may only run for a single office during a regular election cycle.

Each position will be granted to the candidate receiving the largest number of votes in that election.
In the event of a tie between two or more front runners, a runoff poll shall be opened between those candidates only. This poll shall run for 2 days.
Should this runoff poll also result in a tie between two or more front runners, another runoff poll shall be posted. This process shall repeat until one person may be declared the winner, or until all but one candidate decide to formally concede the election.
Should the runoff process continue into the term for which the election was being held, the office in question shall be considered Vacant. In this case, the President, at his discretion, may appoint another citizen that is not involved in the runoff to temporarily hold the office until a winner shall be decided. In the case where the Presidental election is at stake, the President of the previous term may make such an appointment.

Except for the first term, which may start on any day before nominations are scheduled to start, all terms will start on the 1st of the month. All terms shall end on the last day of that month.

Designated Player (DP) Pool
During each regular election cycle, a separate thread will be created during the nomination process for DP Candidates. Any citizen that wishes to be a DP must post in this thread. When the election polls are posted, a separate poll, in multi-choice format, listing each candidate will be posted. Citizens will vote their approval for a candidate by selecting their name.

A citizen may run for an elected office and apply to be a DP in the same term. The DP Pool does not count as an elected office.

Each candidate that receives a vote from more than ½ of the citizens that vote in the poll will be accepted as a DP for that term. The President will put together a list of the Designated Players, ordered by the number of votes in support for that term. In the event of a tie, the order of formal acceptance of the nomination will be used. All DPs that actually ran a game session in the previous term will be put below those that did not, regardless of the number of votes. This list will determine the order that the DPs will be used for game sessions. If there are more game sessions than DPs, start again from the top of the list.

Should the DP pool be empty, the President is responsible for determining who will be the DP for each game session, using any citizen of the nation to serve as DP.

Members of the DP pool may exchange places as they desire, so long as all citizens involved agree.

Deputies
All Executive Officers will have a deputy. The Deputy is permitted to conduct the affairs of the office as directed by the elected official, or during a planned Absence of the elected official.

If no instructions have been posted for an office within 24 hours of the upcoming Game Session, the deputy for that office may post the official instructions for the office, though such instructions may be superceded should the Executive Officer return to make them before the session begins.

The Judiciary does not use deputies.
In the event of a planned absence (defined by a formal annoucement by that justice of such a period of inactiviy) or an unplanned absence (defined as the lack of any posts on the Democracy Game forums for 48 hours after a formal request for some sort of judicial action), a pro-tem justice(s) may be appointed by the Chief Justice (or Judge Advocate if the Chief Justice is absent) and confirmed by the President and the remaining justice if not also absent.
If both the Chief Justice and the Judge Advocate are absent, the Public Defender may appoint pro-tem members to the other seats, with Presidential approval.
In the event of absence by all three members of the Judiciary, the President may fill all offices with pro-tem members.
Upon the return of an absent justice, the appointed pro-tem justice shall relinquish the seat immeadiately.

Vacancies
If an elected official (either Executive Officer or Justice) does not post in the Democracy Game forums in 4 days without prior notice, any citizen may request the Judiciary to investigate. The Judiciary, by a majority vote, may declare the office Vacant at the conclusion of the investigation.

The President will appoint a citizen to any Vacant office. If a deputy exists for that office, the President must offer the appointment to that citizen. The appointment may be challenged by any citizen by posting a Recall poll within 24 hours of the appointment. After that period of time has expired, any attempt at a recall must procede through normal channels as defined by Section I.1 of the Code of Laws.

Lower offices of the Executive Branch are excluded from these procedures,

Polling Standards

The initial post should contain a link to all relevant discussion threads, and should define the poll as either an Initiative or Referendum. Each option should be explained if not immediately clear. The question and answers of the poll must be unbiased. The time frame for the poll, and how the results will be interpreted should also be in the initial post.

All Initiative and Referendum polls must be open for a minimum of 24 hours to be binding. They are strongly encouraged to be open for at least 3 days. They must be flagged as "Public" unless directly concerning another Citizen. A minimum of number of votes greater than 1/4 the current term's census is required for the poll to be considered official.

Should a citizen question the validity of an Initiative or Referendum, the President shall judge the qualifications of the poll. Should all qualifications be met, the President shall validate the result. Should some requirement be lacking, the President shall invalidate the poll, and its decision will be considered that of an Opinion Poll and therefore not binding.

Recalls
Any citizen may create a thread requesting the recall of a specific official. This post must include the reason the recall is requested. Should two additional citizens post in that thread supporting the recall within 24 hours of the initial post, the Chief Justice (or Judge Advocate if the recall is for the Chief Justice) must create a Recall poll.

Additionally, an individual citizen may post a Recall poll 24 hours after the President has appointed a citizen to a vacant office.

This is a private poll, asking in Yes/No/Abstain format if the elected official should be removed from office. This poll should run for 4 days.

If 60% of the citizens voting support the recall, ignoring abstain, and the total number of votes is greater than 1/2 of the census, the citizen is removed from office, and the office is declared Vacant.

A Recall may be requested no sooner than 7 days after a previous attempt in the same term on the same official.

Game Sessions

All irreversible game actions must progress during a game session, while reversible game actions (i.e. build queues) that adhere to legal instructions can be prepared offline. During each session, the designated player must provide a log of their actions in sufficient detail to replicate their actions.

Game Sessions must be at least 3 days apart, while no more than 7 days apart.

A Game Session Instruction Thread must be created at least 2 days before the session by the Designated Player for that session. Should a thread not be created in a timely manner, the President may create one. The initial post should contain the date and time of the game session, a link to the save to be used for that session, and if the game session will be on-line or off-line.

If the game session is off-line, a citizen may request that the session be conducted on-line. If three other citizens concur, the session must be on-line.

All official instructions must be posted in the current game session instruction thread. Instructions must be clear and defined. Officials must post their instructions at least one hour before the scheduled start of the game session. However, officials may make changes to their instructions up to an hour before the chat, so long as those changes are clearly noted. Officials that do not post instructions for a game session are considered to have given the DP complete control over their area for that game session.

The game session may last for as long as there are relevant instructions, until a posted instruction says to hold the session or when the DP decides to end the session. Once a game session is over, the DP must post a summary of that session, a detailed log of their actions, and a save in the instruction thread and in the summary thread.

If the DP for a session does not show up, or is unable to continue, a substitute DP can be chosen for that session. This substitute is chosen from the President, the Minister of Domestic Affairs Affairs, the Minister of Military Affairs, and the Minister of Foreign Affairs, in that order. If none of these officials are present, another substitute may be chosen from the DP Pool, if present.

Freedom of Information
All elected officials will create an official thread. This thread will be used to provide updates to the citizens about their office. The information in this thread should updated frequently in order to accurately reflect the current game situation.

Amending the Code of Laws
Amendments to the Code of Laws must be posted as a Proposed Poll in the discussion thread for at least 24 hours prior to submission to the Judiciary. The discussion on the amendment must have lasted at least 48 hours.

Amendments must pass Judicial Review. If accepted, the Judiciary will post the poll. This poll will be open for 3 days, state the new text and the current text. To pass, an amendment must have a majority of positive votes, ignoring Abstain.

A list of changes is forthcoming... :D

More changes just made:

B.3: changed to 'contested election.'
C.1: Accidentally refered to Defense Minister. D'oh!
C.8: Reworded slightly according to Black_Hole's suggestions.
G: Tried to reword some of the vacancy stuff...

A few suggestions, I am not sure if these have already been talked about:
Sorry, for not looking over it sooner

1. A.1: I don't think Judiciary should be included, because it is already defined in the constitution
2. B.3: Lowest participation should be defined as votes, imo, also make sure it excludes non contested elections
3. C.5: I think you should also include spies in the list of units not under the Military leader's control
4. C.8.b: The wording is subject to a JR, in some cases, for example: a leader creates an office, but is then impeached and replaced, the new leader isn't the "creating official" and thus doesn't have power to remove that office
5. F.3: Can the CoL legally create restrictions on an office created by the constitution?
6. G.1: What if two or more judicial members are gone?

1. A.1: I don't think Judiciary should be included, because it is already defined in the constitution

The Constitution explicitly allows further laws regarding the Judiciary Branch to be implemented.

3. C.5: I think you should also include spies in the list of units not under the Military leader's control

I'd also see it that way. Only a (small) part of a Spy's function is military.

4. C.8.b: The wording is subject to a JR, in some cases, for example: a leader creates an office, but is then impeached and replaced, the new leader isn't the "creating official" and thus doesn't have power to remove that office

Agree. Better define a term "oversighting office" and use that.

5. F.3: Can the CoL legally create restrictions on an office created by the constitution?

Most certainly, as long as the restrictions don't contract any part of the Constitution.

6. G.1: What if two or more judicial members are gone?

?!?

In response to the question of flexibility - The proposal does not add an extra layer to the government, it is an alternative layer of government. It is a choice of 'or' not requiring 'and'. More ways to get things done, not more ways to hinder things from getting done. That is how it is more flexible. But it also wouldn't be difficult to combine the senate to the representitives

to the validity of basing the suggestion on an established RL constitution - It is based on a RL constitution that was in turn based on other RL forms of government, both of its own era and dating back to antiquity as well as becoming the base for several other forms of government to follow; in other words - it works. Of course if I had merely changed some names, like president and senate, and stated that it was based on the defuct Polish constitution of 1791 maybe there wouldn't be an objection. I don't see any clamor about the similarities with the constitution of the state of California with regard to recall, referendum and initiative.

to suggestion that time and effort are required to make a form of government - I am not a rookie in DemoGames. I have seen forms of government formed over months collapse by the third term. I have seen dramatic changes due to percieved faults only to experience that the grass was green to begin with. I admit up front that this suggestion was 80-90% a cut and paste job. The remaining 10-20% has been carefully considered, both to reduce the 'wordiness' and anticipate situations that may arise 3 terms and 30 terms down the line.

That does bring up wordiness. Though minor efforts were made to reduce the length, I think that it could be reduced further. As it stands now it is no greater or smaller then other proposals. Although I doubt that a simple and compact Code of Laws can be made a reality, it is not entirely impossible. Specifics are only included when there could be a potential conflict of interest and to ensure the balance of responsibilities.

I appreciate the comments so far. I do not actively promote the complete disolvement of our current form of government.

The Constitution explicitly allows further laws regarding the Judiciary Branch to be implemented.



I'd also see it that way. Only a (small) part of a Spy's function is military.



Agree. Better define a term "oversighting office" and use that.



Most certainly, as long as the restrictions don't contract any part of the Constitution.



?!?
On the last one:

Vacancies

1. If an elected official does not post in the Democracy Game forums in 4 days without prior notice, any citizen may request the Judiciary to investigate. The Judiciary, by a majority vote, may declare the office Vacant at the conclusion of the investigation.

It requires a majority vote in the judiciary to declare an elected official vacant, what if there are two people gone in the judiciary? They can't be declared vacant because a majority can't be reached in the judiciary

It requires a majority vote in the judiciary to declare an elected official vacant, what if there are two people gone in the judiciary? They can't be declared vacant because a majority can't be reached in the judiciary

Pro-Tem justices ...

-- Ravensfire

Pro-Tem justices ...

-- Ravensfire
duh.... :blush:

D. Elections

[...]

Except for the first term, all terms will start on the 1st of the month, and end on the last day of that month.

I don't understand this "first day of the month" fixiation which so many people seem to share (don't tell me about "it's always been like that", because first it isn't true, and second it wouldn't matter). I am against it.

It's possible we'll start the game this weekend, which would be the middle of a month. Why don't we define that each term should last exactly 4 weeks? Game schedules are made on a weekday-basis anyway.

Good call on the 4 week term Blkbird. I think the main issue with 1st of the month starts is that they are nice and easy to remember while middle of the month or week can be a bit more confusing.

I an effort to address that what about a 1st monday of every month term start. Or 1st Saturday, whatever people think is most reasonable. It makes terms a bit more volatile in terms of number of days, but if we do first monday of every month then every term gets 4 or 5 weekends to operate. This is the same as the 1st of the month system without the middle of the week startups.

Yeah, I like Beangeance's idea. As for the shortened Jan term, I think we should still start the second term on the 1st Monday of February. It works too well to tweak it just for one term's worth of officers. We could also make it up to them by letting them run again for the second term as well.

Or you could give the 1st term a month and a half since things move so slow in the 1st few turns of a game

I don't understand this "first day of the month" fixiation which so many people seem to share (don't tell me about "it's always been like that", because first it isn't true, and second it wouldn't matter). I am against it.

It's possible we'll start the game this weekend, which would be the middle of a month. Why don't we define that each term should last exactly 4 weeks? Game schedules are made on a weekday-basis anyway.

Why do we use it? First, it works. Since DG2, we have used the 1st of the month. The only exception is the "first term" clause we started in DG VII. This is to handle the very scenario you brought up of starting in the middle of the month. Other options have been suggested, including turn-based systems. When polled, the monthly format has always won.

The second reason is simplicity. It's very easy to determine, without checking a thread, where in the term we are, when it ends, etc. Shifting to an alternate system would add complexity without offering any additional benefit.

I would suggest an opinion poll, and see what people think of the idea.

-- Ravensfire

Or you could give the 1st term a month and a half since things move so slow in the 1st few turns of a game

Ah, and the other solution to this is to make sure there are instructions for 15 or 20 turns of play, with good stop instructions to make sure the game is halted when it needs to be halted.

-- Ravensfire

On the last one:

It requires a majority vote in the judiciary to declare an elected official vacant, what if there are two people gone in the judiciary? They can't be declared vacant because a majority can't be reached in the judiciary

Unless you consider a 1-0 vote as a majority. ;)

Unless you consider a 1-0 vote as a majority. ;)

I agree, that is an overwelming majority. :lol:

Now taking things to the next level. ;) What if all three Justices become vacant? :confused:

I agree, that is an overwelming majority. :lol:

Now taking things to the next level. ;) What if all three Justices become vacant? :confused:

See Section G.2 of Octavian's proposal!

-- Ravensfire

I personaly like Octavian's proposal for a flexable government.

I personaly like Octavian's proposal for a flexable government.

In that case, I've just detected another unclear issue which may cause judical dispute: Are members of the Judiciary Branch "officials"?

G Vacancies

[...]

2. The President will appoint a citizen to any Vacant office. If a deputy exists for that office, the President must offer the appointment to that citizen. The appointment may be challenged by any citizen by posting a Recall poll within 24 hours of the appointment. After that period of time has expired, any attempt at a recall must procede through normal channels as defined by Section I.1 of the Code of Laws.

In the common language, "officials" often refer to members of the executive branch branch. It's disputable if a Judge should be considered an "official" of the state. In our case, either our Constitution nor the proposed CoL defines the term "official" or "office".

Honestly, this is what I think ruins some of the fun of the game, nitpicking the ruleset. It's great to give feedback and clear up sections that are confusing - but sometimes you just need to use common sense. G.2 refers to officials of the government - think yourself: do you think it refers to Judiciary or not? What *is* "common language"? Does it matter if the Judiciary is considered an "official" or not? Flexible is about simplicity and effectiveness; let's not over-complicate things.

In that case, I've just detected another unclear issue which may cause judical dispute: Are members of the Judiciary Branch "officials"?

In the common language, "officials" often refer to members of the executive branch branch. It's disputable if a Judge should be considered an "official" of the state. In our case, either our Constitution nor the proposed CoL defines the term "official" or "office".

Not in my common language. I think you'd really, really have to reach to come up with that conclusion.

There are also mentions of "office" in the proposal.

-- Ravensfire

The top post of this page has been editted to reflect some of Blkbrd's and Black_Hole's suggestions. I agree that some of definitions may be tightened, but the document is very long as it is. An admirable goal, I think, would be to cut a few hundred words from the docuement. :p

A few other questions for thought...

Should we allow an Executive Officer to remove his Deputy?
Is the Freedom of Information bit really complete?

And, of course, any and all proofreading is appreciated. The 'Defense' Ministry, for example, was renamed 'Military Affairs.' If I missed any references that needed to be changed, please tell me!

Should we allow an Executive Officer to remove his Deputy?
Yes
Is the Freedom of Information bit really complete?
Perhaps there's a better way to more accurately reflect what people do and prevent nuisance judicial requests. It may be a bit longer, maybe replace the last sentence with "This thread will contain update basic information about the office and other information as requested by citizens."

-- Ravensfire

In that case, I've just detected another unclear issue which may cause judical dispute: Are members of the Judiciary Branch "officials"?
By tradition I consider the Judicary members as officals of the Judicary Branch of the Government.

Oct's proposal seems to be missing the same thing we were missing in DG7. How is the President position filled when vacant?

Oct's proposal seems to be missing the same thing we were missing in DG7. How is the President position filled when vacant?

Good question. How about an appointment made by the Judiciary? It would be the remaining impartial body in the event of Presidential absence, and would be the body least likely to have absent members.

We could also try a special election, though it'd be a headache to impleament into the CoL proposal as it now stands.

Lastly, this reminds me that the President should probably be the person in charge of filling an office if no candidates ran for it during the election...

Good question. How about an appointment made by the Judiciary? It would be the remaining impartial body in the event of Presidential absence, and would be the body least likely to have absent members.

How about an appointment by the Judiciary, whereas the candidate is limited to the three primary Ministers (Domestic, Foreign, Military)? In other words, let the Justices vote to pick one of the three as acting President.

Why should it be limited to one of the 3 structured ministers? Everyone can be eligible as well as them - let's just appoint someone as President, not 'acting' President; we can actually fill the position.

I've set up a poll regarding the election period issue:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=154120

One more question is necessary before we move for submitting the proposal as an amendment to the Code of Laws. What about impleamentation? Do we add a rider mandating that the Flexible government wait until the new term for impleamentation, or do we move for immeadiate impleamentation and simply move Triumvirate officers into the new Executive Offices?

I would suggest that the new CoL take effect in Term 2, and that all election be with the new positions.

-- Ravensfire

It should take affect after the first full month Triumvirate term.

It is now early AM the 17th, GMT. To change the CoL prior to elections, we would need a 1 day mock poll period assuming no substantial comments, a JR which could take up to a day depending on what time the request comes in and when the Justices are online, followed by a 4 day poll. This means the earliest it can be posted as the new CoL is 5 days from now, and more likely 6 days. Elections start 8 days before the end of month, on the 23rd.

My opinion as a citizen is that we're better off not rushing it, and aiming for term 3. If there are totally unworkable aspects of the existing CoL, then someone outside the Judiciary should initiate actions to change them. It wouldn't be possible to change the offices, but there is no reason other things like how vacancies are filled, which decisions require an assembly vote, etc. can't be fixed.

that is what i was trying to suggest in less words.

Though i feel as citiziens we are better waiting for demogame 2 to implement the Flex. Or just admit that the current tri is Flex under a different name:mischief:

My opinion as a citizen is that we're better off not rushing it, and aiming for term 3. If there are totally unworkable aspects of the existing CoL, then someone outside the Judiciary should initiate actions to change them. It wouldn't be possible to change the offices, but there is no reason other things like how vacancies are filled, which decisions require an assembly vote, etc. can't be fixed.

I second that. The current draft still leaves many things open. Compared to our current CoL, my impression is that this draft is clearly not yet ready for ratification.

that is what i was trying to suggest in less words.

Though i feel as citiziens we are better waiting for demogame 2 to implement the Flex. Or just admit that the current tri is Flex under a different name:mischief:

Now THAT it's certainly not. The sheer complexity of the Tri system is missing (thankfully!) from this.

For the pace - let's just allow the proposal to dictate the pace. If it will make it in time for Term 2 - cool. If it won't, oh well - Term 3 then.

-- Ravensfire

The discussion on the content of the Flex draft is dying out, I'm not sure if this is a sign that we are roughly done with the draft (my personal impression is that we're not), but in any case here is something we must do before finishing the draft: a "comparision analysis".

We need to take our current CoL, go from one sentence to the next, see what issue each of them address, and find the equivalent in the new draft. Some things are handled similarly in both versions, some not such much - in that case we need to write it down. When we propose a complete switch of CoL to the cititzenery, we have the obligation to present them a list of major changes in the law.

Also, many regulations in the current CoL will be found missing in the new one - we do emphasize on having a significantly slimmer CoL, after all. For those issues we need to make sure they are handled well *implicitly* by the new CoL, or, in case an issue is likely to be disputed, add explicit clauses to the draft to prevent such disputes. I have a feeling we'll be finding many such "blind spots" in our draft.

This comparison analysis need to be done independently by at least two, three people. I myself am quite busy right now, with my duties as the Minister of Science, plus I'm already spending too much time on the Demogame as it is. So if some of you like to start now, please do. I won't be available for this until end of the month.

After reading the draft in its current form again, I'm shocked how unsatisfied I am with the whole section C.8, which is supposed to be the heart of our "flexible" ruleset.

First, the wording in C.8.a and C.8.b is illogical, confusing, and also politically incorrect: "[this and that] except when the citizenery ..."? What happens to "the people comes first"? How about turn it around to "unless the citizenery ..., [this and that]"? Those clauses need to be re-written, but before that we should clear up the next issue first:

C.8.e doesn't make any sense to me. All sub-offices are just temporary to the end of term? Hello? Am I imagining things? Tell me it wasn't like this before, please.

It almost seems as if the Tri is more flexible and Demo-rific :crazyeye: :lol:

blkbird - I think you've got some valid complaints there. I'm not certain what Oct is trying to accomplish with the last clause in C.8.a. From a brief glance, I can't see anything that obviously says how the Assembly could fill an office.

What Octavian appears to be after, language aside, is laudable. You've got the 4 defined offices - the President, MDA, MFA, MMA - and the Governors in the Executive branch. These officials can create various positions by delegating their duties to that office. They can then appoint citizens to that office. These office ONLY exist for that term.

Or, elected officials can appoint citizens to help them perform their duties. This appointment lasts only for that term, and does not create a permanent office.

The language is pretty bad though - it makes the Tri look semi-clear, and I didn't think that was possible!

-- Ravensfire

What Octavian appears to be after, language aside, is laudable. You've got the 4 defined offices - the President, MDA, MFA, MMA - and the Governors in the Executive branch. These officials can create various positions by delegating their duties to that office. They can then appoint citizens to that office. These office ONLY exist for that term.

Then I must have missed the point when we - or better, you guys - decided to remove the previously existing possibility of making sub-offices permanent (permanent as in "longer than one term", not as in "irreversible") via an assembly vote. I don't understand why.

Run an amendment to create the position.

It's done via the assembly, is already there, why create more rules that you need to?

-- Ravensfire

Run an amendment to create the position.

It's done via the assembly, is already there, why create more rules that you need to?

I don't like it. The amendment process is still a lengthy process (much less so than the current one, I acknowledge), I think it's overkill for creating AND disbanding additional offices.

Also it leaves the quesions open if additional offices are to be created as main offices (on the same level as the primary three) or sub-offices. I like sub-offices much, much better, and explicit clause would ensure that.

Since we *are* talking about the very cornerstone of this law draft - the "flexible" part - I think we shouldn't be too greedy about being brief.

Think of this as a form of evolutionary theory. If a suboffice works and proves useful, citizens will expect and demand it.

If the suboffice doesn't work and hinders the game, they will demand it's removal.

If it's just okay, it may, or may not stay.

Regardless, this allows a great deal of flexibility. I think a provision that would allow citizens to demand a new office would be nice to have though.

-- Ravensfire

Think of this as a form of evolutionary theory. If a suboffice works and proves useful, citizens will expect and demand it.

If the suboffice doesn't work and hinders the game, they will demand it's removal.

If it's just okay, it may, or may not stay.

Regardless, this allows a great deal of flexibility. I think a provision that would allow citizens to demand a new office would be nice to have though.

I'm OK with all that. What I have problem with is that at this time, the *default* fate of a suboffice is termination at term end. That troubles me. I have more faith in the decision of the officials and would like to make it default for suboffices to *stay* - temporarily, somehow.

Also, you haven't address my questions and concerns regarding the "offices vs. suboffices" issue.

Think of this as a form of evolutionary theory. If a suboffice works and proves useful, citizens will expect and demand it.

If the suboffice doesn't work and hinders the game, they will demand it's removal.

If it's just okay, it may, or may not stay.

Regardless, this allows a great deal of flexibility. I think a provision that would allow citizens to demand a new office would be nice to have though.

-- Ravensfire

(emphasis mine)

It's an intersting thought, but I feel that the citizens already have a great deal of latitude through an Assembly vote. Could you clarify what you mean by this, raven? If you're talking about a minister being forced to create an office on the demand of a few citizens, it doesn't seem like the best idea, given the tendancy that might have for abuse by minority groups.

Additionally, everyone, please feel free to make any suggestion possible for clearing up the language of the proposal! When I have a little more free time, I was planning to attack the proposal again to impleament some of the newer suggestions and to clarify the language - a lot of it is still the same copy-paste from older CoL versions. And, this time, I may get around to cross-referencing stuff with in-text anchors...

Also, you haven't address my questions and concerns regarding the "offices vs. suboffices" issue.
I think they are supposed to be sub-offices, and adding four characters would clear that up some.

EDIT: Although, it does clearly say "lower offices" at the top of the sub section, that's pretty darn clear to me.

It's an intersting thought, but I feel that the citizens already have a great deal of latitude through an Assembly vote. Could you clarify what you mean by this, raven? If you're talking about a minister being forced to create an office on the demand of a few citizens, it doesn't seem like the best idea, given the tendancy that might have for abuse by minority groups.
Completely agree. Maybe "Citizens may require a leader to create an office through a successful and specific Initiative." - would that work?

If you don't mind, I'm going to try a quick rewrite of that section.

EDIT: And you've already got it in there - nice, Octavian. I completely missed that. I might move it though ...

-- Ravensfire

Proposed rewrite:
All Officers of the Executive Branch may create lower offices to which they may delegate portions of their authority. The Citizen's Assembly may require an Officer to create or remove a lower office through a specific Initiative.

1. Executive Officers may appoint or remove Citizens as they please for the offices that are under their jurisdiction. The Citizen's Assembly may appoint or remove Citizens for offices through a Citizen's Assembly Initiative. Citizens appointed by the Citizen's Assembly may not be removed by the Executive Office controlling that lower office.
2. The duties of these lower offices must be publicly defined, and the office may be closed at any time by the Executive Officer to which it is responsible, except those offices created by a Citizen's Assembly Initiative.
4. All persons appointed to fill these lower offices may be Recalled by the Citizen’s Assembly.
5. All lower office, regardless of how they were created, are closed at the end of the term in which they were created.


Changes:
-- Added clause specifically allowing CA to force office creation/deletion. Although the right is implied, let's make it specific. (Implied through the power of initiative, which has force of law to require an official to perform an act within their power, blah, blah, blah)
-- Removed second clause in 1. - intent is unclear, confusing.
-- Removed 3 - moved contents to various locations to improve readability and logical flow
-- Removed last clause in 4 - already covered or is implied.

To answer your concern, Blkbird, about offices not extending beyond one term, it's actually quite easy to do that. Create a Citizen's Initiative that says "The President, at the beginning of their term, will create and fill a lower office that controls the allocation of workers." Simple and easy - remember that Initiatives don't expire unless specifically mentioned or a second Initiative cancels it out.

Octavian's wording makes it clear that citizens appointed to an office, regardless of the method, are there for that term only. It's a nice way to prevent abuse.

-- Ravensfire

I'm confused a bit - what's the difference between having three main offices (President, Sec. of State, Sec. of War) plus several cabinet offices, vs. having 4 main office and several sub-offices. I thought one of the knocks against Triumvirate is the perceived division between the Triumvirate and the cabinet. How is this any different, on that point?

Proposed rewrite:

[...]

Still don't like it. It's not much different than before. What those clauses do is specify something, then restricting it, then added some to it, then remove some more. It doesn't have a straightforward order. You have to read through, and read it over again, and maybe a thrid time to entirely comprehend which clause cancels which out, what is an exception to what else, and so on.

Here is my rewrite:

8. All executive offices may each have a number of subsidary offices under their supervision, which may be referred to as "suboffices".

- a. A supervising office may delegate portions of its authority to any of its suboffices. The power and the duties of a suboffice must be publicly defined.

- b. Suboffices may be create and removed, Subofficers appointed and discharged. Such creation, removal, appointment and discharge may be conducted legislatively via an Initiative by the Citizens Assembly, or executively at the discretion of the supervising Executive Officer, as specified below.

- c. A suboffice may be created or removed legislatively at any time. A legislation creating a suboffice must specify a supervising office for it. A suboffice may also be created executively at any time, however it may only be removed executively if it was not legislatively created or if the legislation creating it explicitly allowed an executive removal.

- d. A Subofficer may be appointed or discharged legislatively at any time. A Subofficer may also be appointed executively at any time, however he may only be discharged executively if he was not legislatively appointed or if the legislation appointing him explicitly allowed an executive discharge.

- e. All suboffices, regardless of how they were created, are automatically removed at the end of the term in which they were created.

To answer your concern, Blkbird, about offices not extending beyond one term, it's actually quite easy to do that. Create a Citizen's Initiative that says "The President, at the beginning of their term, will create and fill a lower office that controls the allocation of workers." Simple and easy - remember that Initiatives don't expire unless specifically mentioned or a second Initiative cancels it out.

That's nice, but I still feel an Initiative is too much of an requirement for a suboffice to be semi-perminent.

Here is my rewrite:

Wow - way, way too wordy. You're saying basically the exact same thing with twice the words!

And we'll agree to disagree on the process for semi-permanent lower offices.

-- Ravensfire

I'm confused a bit - what's the difference between having three main offices (President, Sec. of State, Sec. of War) plus several cabinet offices, vs. having 4 main office and several sub-offices. I thought one of the knocks against Triumvirate is the perceived division between the Triumvirate and the cabinet. How is this any different, on that point?

Flexibility in those sub-offices. The only offices created are the ones that need to be there.

There's also not the detailed bureaucracy that bogs down the Triumverate system. It's a much cleaner, faster and easier system.

-- Ravensfire

@Blkbird: Sorry for ignorance, but I don't understand the purpose of your rewrite (post #109). So you trying to say that each new term there is a new suboffice law? Which automatically becomes obsolete in the next term? And point "d" is extremely confusing.

Wow - way, way too wordy. You're saying basically the exact same thing with twice the words!

I don't see how it's "twice the words". My rewrite is rather less a "rewrite" than a "re-organisation", I don't mind if someone compresses the sentences I used. I have 5 sub-paragraphs in my version, just like yours.

In any case, clearity has absolute priority over concision. The current version, and your rewrite, are simply unclear to an unacceptabe degree.

Sorry, but I quite disgree with your opinion. Wordiness generally does not increase readability. Simple, clear and direct language increases readability.

Yours fails that test. Badly.

-- Ravensfire

There's also not the detailed bureaucracy that bogs down the Triumverate system.
-- Ravensfire

When has the Tri been bogged down by words? :confused: Now your just making up facts( which if made up aren't actually facts at all, but in fact( no pun intended) unfacts because they are the anti-fact, which they could also be reffered to as):lol:

Also I think blackbirds is not to wordy, and his layout makes it easy to understand!

Also
Think of this as a form of evolutionary theory. If a suboffice works and proves useful, citizens will expect and demand it.

If the suboffice doesn't work and hinders the game, they will demand it's removal.

If it's just okay, it may, or may not stay.

Regardless, this allows a great deal of flexibility. I think a provision that would allow citizens to demand a new office would be nice to have though.


This is already allowed in the Tri, and as you have stated, it is the central point in the Flexible THEORY! I see not why we need to replace it.:confused:

This is already allowed in the Tri, and as you have stated, it is the central point in the Flexible THEORY! I see not why we need to replace it.:confused:
Yes, it does. Except, it starts with multiple offices already out there. The flex system starts with just 3 - under half that of the Triumverate. There's quite a bit more flexibility that you can't get with the Tri.

-- Ravensfire

Yes, it does. Except, it starts with multiple offices already out there. The flex system starts with just 3 - under half that of the Triumverate. There's quite a bit more flexibility that you can't get with the Tri.

-- Ravensfire

Less offices isn't more Flexiblity, its just less positions for the new players trying to wet there noses a little! Boasting less offices doen't make you MORE flexible. The phrase LESS is MORE definitly doen't apply here. THough i'm not a total donkey. If you can convince me it is with real arguments and facts, i'll change my position! BUt i remain a loyalist, ya darn Flexie(j/k on the last bit)

P.S Whats a troller?

Less offices isn't more Flexiblity, its just less positions for the new players trying to wet there noses a little! Boasting less offices doen't make you MORE flexible. The phrase LESS is MORE definitly doen't apply here. THough i'm not a total donkey. If you can convince me it is with real arguments and facts, i'll change my position! BUt i remain a loyalist, ya darn Flexie(j/k on the last bit)

P.S Whats a troller?
The triumvirate allows for very little flexibility. If we don't need an office in the triumvirate it is there anyway, that isn't flexibility! If we don't need an office in the flexible government, we don't create it! The flexible government allows us to create offices, in the triumvirate, they are already created.

The triumvirate allows for very little flexibility. If we don't need an office in the triumvirate it is there anyway, that isn't flexibility! If we don't need an office in the flexible government, we don't create it! The flexible government allows us to create offices, in the triumvirate, they are already created.

The funny things is, right now, the designated way to create new offices in Flex is via CoL ammendment. But of course you can create and remove any office via CoL ammendment in the Tri just as well. So, I don't see any difference here.

The funny things is, right now, the designated way to create new offices in Flex is via CoL ammendment. But of course you can create and remove any office via CoL ammendment in the Tri just as well. So, I don't see any difference here.
What are you talking about?

C.8:


# All Officers of the Executive Branch may create lower offices to which they may delegate portions of their authority.

1. Executive Officers may appoint or remove Citizens as they please for the offices that are under their jurisdiction, expect in cases where the Citizen's Assembly has chosen to fill the office.
2. The duties of these lower offices must be publicly defined, and the office may be closed at any time by the Executive Officer to which it is responsible, except in cases where the Citizen's Assembly may chose to create or close a lower office.
3. These lower offices may be created, filled and closed via an Initiative of the Citizen’s Assembly.
4. All persons appointed to fill these lower offices may be Recalled by the Citizen’s Assembly. Lower Offices created by the Assembly may not be closed by the Executive Officer to which the lower office is responsible, while the Assembly may close lower offices created by an Executive Officer.
5. Irregardless of their origins, all lower offices shall close at the end of term during which they were created.


Do you actually read this? Nowhere says you need a CoL amendment, I am not sure where you are getting this idea.

The triumvirate allows for very little flexibility. If we don't need an office in the triumvirate it is there anyway, that isn't flexibility! If we don't need an office in the flexible government, we don't create it! The flexible government allows us to create offices, in the triumvirate, they are already created.
Thats not flexibility, thats just the elimination of jobs. As Blkbird pinted out, the same process that allow the flexible to "create offices" is in the tri for creating and disbanding offices. Also, which office in the tri is unneeded. None, and that swhy they are already created. instead of going through multiple beurocratic hassles every months, the Tri has already established all nessary offices and if needed and easily establish sub-offices. I think a government re-naming is in order. Also, if you already got the flexible theory put into the code of laws, then why do this? The people already got what they wanted, in fact more than the majority did!!!

What are you talking about?

Do you actually read this? Nowhere says you need a CoL amendment, I am not sure where you are getting this idea.

Did *you* actually read this? And did you actually read all the comments I've made (there are a lot of them) about this?

If you had read what you wanted me to read, you would have realized that those suboffices are temporar until the end of the turn only.

And if you had read what ravensfire wrote in answering me question how new offices could be established permanently, you would have known at least he thinks a CoL amendment is what to do then.

So, let me ask you, how much of this thread have you read and how much not?

Did *you* actually read this? And did you actually read all the comments I've made (there are a lot of them) about this?

If you had read what you wanted me to read, you would have realized that those suboffices are temporar until the end of the turn only.

And if you had read what ravensfire wrote in answering me question how new offices could be established permanently, you would have known at least he thinks a CoL amendment is what to do then.

So, let me ask you, how much of this thread have you read and how much not?
I did read it and I knew you said that earlier, but you said: "The funny things is, right now, the designated way to create new offices in Flex is via CoL ammendment.", you never said permanently create...
There is a difference between creating and permanently creating

Blkbird,

Did YOU read what I said? No, you didn't, because you claim I said use a CoL Amendment.

Go back and read it again. It's also not for creating permanent offices, just temp offices that will last more than one term. Note further that my suggested approach would give the specific office holder a great deal of flexibility in exactly how the office is created, allowing additional duties or combinations of required offices.

I think what you're doing is confusing the Tri and the Flex. In the Tri, it specifically says that any new offices or change to be permanent must be through an amendment.

-- Ravensfire

The people already got what they wanted, in fact more than the majority did!!!

No, they didn't. The majority, twice, wanted the Flexible ruleset. If it wasn't for the outright fraud in those polls, among others, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

We'd already have the ruleset that the people wanted.

-- Ravensfire

I did read it and I knew you said that earlier, but you said: "The funny things is, right now, the designated way to create new offices in Flex is via CoL ammendment.", you never said permanently create...
There is a difference between creating and permanently creating

Correct, but I do not consider suboffices offices. When I say "offices", I mean full offices, not suboffices.

Blkbird,

Did YOU read what I said? No, you didn't, because you claim I said use a CoL Amendment.

Your exact words were: "Run an amendment to create the position." I interpreted "position" as "position of the office in question".

Go back and read it again. It's also not for creating permanent offices, just temp offices that will last more than one term. Note further that my suggested approach would give the specific office holder a great deal of flexibility in exactly how the office is created, allowing additional duties or combinations of required offices.

"Temp offices that will last more than one term"? What are those? How are they different from permanent offices?

This is very bad. The more I hear from you guys - the "core group" who originally created the Flex - the less I understand, and the more my confusion grows. This is definitely a bad sign. I can garantee you that there will be a lot of citizens sharing some of my confusions. I'm not even sure you guys correctly understand each other.

No, they didn't. The majority, twice, wanted the Flexible ruleset. If it wasn't for the outright fraud in those polls, among others, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Can we please stop with this "if", "would", etc. discussion regarding the history of our CoL? I'm really sick of it. There is no "if" in politics, and there shouldn't be. Specificly, what people once wanted doesn't have any direct relation to what the people want now.

The biggest problem I have with this proposal at present is that there are too few elected offices. The few, very powerful officials built into the base rules have the option to create suboffices and appoint people to handle those duties, but nothing says they actually will do that. The people can create an office via initiative, but then how is it filled? If a created office is semi-permanent, does it get filled by election the next term, or by appointment?

It's way too early in the lifetime of the Civ4 DGs to start trimming back on the number of elections. The first cycle we had every election contested, and some with 4 candidates. Do we want every election to be 4-way or more?

Less offices isn't more Flexiblity, its just less positions for the new players trying to wet there noses a little! Boasting less offices doen't make you MORE flexible. The phrase LESS is MORE definitly doen't apply here. THough i'm not a total donkey. If you can convince me it is with real arguments and facts, i'll change my position! BUt i remain a loyalist, ya darn Flexie(j/k on the last bit)


Using your logic, why don't we create tons and tons of offices so that every new player and veteran alike can have an office? With more offices, you run the risk at the end of the game that they won't be filled. Even in Civ3 DG7, there were office shortages by Term 4 and 5.

Octavian,

Excluding C.8, I'm going to review the entire proposal, and try to nit-pick as much as I can.

As for C.8 - you've got a fair amount of feedback and varied viewpoints on it. I trust ya.

It should be up before my DGVII game session.

-- Ravensfire

Octavian,

General
Provinces - You mention them several times, but not who creates them.

Section A - Looks good.

Section B - Looks good. A bit stilted, language-wise, but works.

Section C - Add a "catch-all" to the President (C.2) "... and all other duties not assigned to another Executive Officer." This means if we find something that wasn't given to an officer, we don't have to panic about it - the Prez has it.

Section D - I like the change to Runoffs.

Section E - I would clarify that the DP poll is private.

Section F - Looks good.

Section G - Looks good.

Section H - Opinion polls aren't included as a poll type (H.1)? Looks good otherwise.

Section I - Looks good.

Section J -
J.1 - reversible actions can be prepared "earlier", not "off-line" - meaning is more obvious.
J.7 - I think we need to add in the customary additional saves - 0 turn (after all actions, but prior to pressing Next Turn), every 5 turns, ending save. We've got many new players, so we can't rely on custom. Alternatively, we require only the end save. Custom just won't cut it.

Section K - Maybe add "Officers will answer all reasonable requests for information in an area they control."

General - you call the elected citizens "Executive Officers", but continue to use Official(s) in the remaining ruleset. I'd just change it to Officer(s) throughout.

Looking quite solid, Octavian - nice work on this. Please note that I did not run it against the Constitution - that will take a bit more time than I have right now. I'll try to do that over the weekend.

-- Ravensfire

The biggest problem I have with this proposal at present is that there are too few elected offices. The few, very powerful officials built into the base rules have the option to create suboffices and appoint people to handle those duties, but nothing says they actually will do that. The people can create an office via initiative, but then how is it filled? If a created office is semi-permanent, does it get filled by election the next term, or by appointment?

It's way too early in the lifetime of the Civ4 DGs to start trimming back on the number of elections. The first cycle we had every election contested, and some with 4 candidates. Do we want every election to be 4-way or more?
This makes elected positions much more valuable, which I prefer. Anybody who wants an office shouldn't get one.

The creation of lower offices (the suboffices, etc...), at least the way I've envisioned it, doesn't necessairily mean fewer elections. It should be legal for the Assembly to fill the lower office via an Initiative set-up as an election. An Official could also run an informal election to decide who he'll appoint for a certain office he's created - a move, I expect, that would be popular.

Thanks for the comments (and a special thanks to ravensfire and Blkbird) for their comments. I hope to have a new draft by tomorrow. :)

I'd like to annouce that my work on the Flexible Government project is currently on hold. I'm awaiting the judiciary's ruling on the official definitions of Initiative and Referendum, as these are concepts that I want to work into the next draft of the project.

I'd like to annouce that my work on the Flexible Government project is currently on hold. I'm awaiting the judiciary's ruling on the official definitions of Initiative and Referendum, as these are concepts that I want to work into the next draft of the project.

If you're waiting on something, I suggest a bump.

Octavian,

Speaking purely for myself, I would strongly prefer that you find the answers you are looking for in this thread. The Judiciary has ruled that the CoL can provide the details on decision making. I started this thread so that we could see if there is a concensus on what should be, and I think there generally is.

As you craft your version of the CoL, use the information here to fill in the details on polling.

-- Ravensfire

out of interest, what happened with the whole idea of a flexy government?

out of interest, what happened with the whole idea of a flexy government?

The people voted in favor of an alternative (Triumvirate) government.

ooo yer think i may have voted in that poll :blush: nvm then :D