Am I the only one here who finds the paranoia about spoilers is making this GOTM less fun? I don't play a GOTM for pretty bitmap pictures of medals (just as well- I wouldn't win any), I play it to play a common map with some other people and get to chat about how it all plays out. This just doesn't work when the spoiler-nazis insist we precisely mustn't chat about how it plays out until it's so far in the past as to be not just yesterday's news but last week's/month's news.

Is there any chance we can either drop the delay before spoiler threads are allowed, or if the Olympic Civ Athletes really insist have a different map GOTM without the delay?

There never seemed to be a problem with CivIII C/GOTM so I see no reason to change things. I don't consider them civ nazis but rather am thankful that they are willing to put the time in for us.

Last spring or summer several international friendly games were played in the Stories and Tales forums. They were similar to C/GOTM games but were played without the rules being enforced. If you really don't like the way CivIV GOTM is done I suggest you start something similar to that on your own.

My personal opinion is to leave CivIV GOTM as it was in CivIII. I see no reason why we should change a good thing. Obviously some stuff will have to be changed due to this being CivIV.

Am I the only one here who finds the paranoia about spoilers is making this GOTM less fun?

Yes.... :rolleyes:

I don't see the problem with starting all the spoiler threads as soon as the game is out. Sometimes i finish the GOTM within a week of its release, but because there is such a big delay before the second and third spoiler are opened i usually end up only posting in the first one (and i've noticed i'm not the only one).

If people wan't to cheat they can do it in a number of ways anyway, so i don't think that is a good reason for the delay.

I kind of agree. I like an early spoiler 2-3 days after the game comes out.

Am I the only one here who finds the paranoia about spoilers is making this GOTM less fun? I don't play a GOTM for pretty bitmap pictures of medals (just as well- I wouldn't win any), I play it to play a common map with some other people and get to chat about how it all plays out. This just doesn't work when the spoiler-nazis insist we precisely mustn't chat about how it plays out until it's so far in the past as to be not just yesterday's news but last week's/month's news.

Is there any chance we can either drop the delay before spoiler threads are allowed, or if the Olympic Civ Athletes really insist have a different map GOTM without the delay?

I agree with you, but I think we are probably in the minority. I like to play a civ game in one sitting, because I'm just to old to remember what I was doing when I left and usually end up starting a new game. However, I think the GOTM is a little more serious for most people and making it less so would diminish it for the majority of the people (the people who are a lot better at civ than us :D ). A casual GOTM in the stories and tales section is probably a better alternative.

Am I the only one here who finds the paranoia about spoilers is making this GOTM less fun? I don't play a GOTM for pretty bitmap pictures of medals (just as well- I wouldn't win any), I play it to play a common map with some other people and get to chat about how it all plays out. This just doesn't work when the spoiler-nazis insist we precisely mustn't chat about how it plays out until it's so far in the past as to be not just yesterday's news but last week's/month's news.

Is there any chance we can either drop the delay before spoiler threads are allowed, or if the Olympic Civ Athletes really insist have a different map GOTM without the delay?
I agree with you, and I do not see why there is the delay. Is it to stop people cheating (reading the spoiler before they play)? I would have thought there are such oportunities for cheating this is minor. I never keep proper logs, and would post my spoilers from memory if there was a thread open when I play it. I hope my memory holds out this month, it is great.

However, the only reason I feel strongly about it is 'cos the GOTM is so fun, so if that is the way the mods want to run it, it is up to them. They have put the effort in, so they get to make the rules. You could always do your own, I would join in.

I have to agree with this as well. I see no reason not to post the spoiler threads the day the game is released, or the day after or whenever is feasible for the staff. Some of us finish the game in a couple days only and it's a lot harder to go back and write up the spoiler for your game when it's not fresh in your mind. Sure I keep a decent turnlog but I don't turn it into story form until the spoiler is out and I know what I can put in the post, etc.

There is no way to prevent cheating. :( The way I see it, if there is somebody who's unscrupulous enough to peek at a spoiler thread before they play, it won't matter when the threads are started. Such a person is going to be finding a way to cheat anyway.

I say go ahead and start the spoiler threads early. If you're going to trust us not to play the entire game multiple times, or not talk to people who've finished it, or the multitude of other areas where you extend your trust, why arbirtrarily choose to not trust people on this issue?

I have to agree too. As long as we keep rules about what can be discussed where, I don't think "when" should matter. Especially with Civ4 games, which are likely to be shorter than before, and can be finished in a matter of hours. I'm already pretty far into this game, and I won't remember the details by the time all the spoiler threads are open.

I agree also. I would like to see the first spoiler thread as I'm nearly done with my game and have probably already forgotten the beginning stages. If someone wants to cheat, it's quite easy for them to cheat without the spoiler thread as the world editor is readily available.

I pretty much agree too. The big fuss about spoiler threads and the save count where the things that made me stop playing GOTMs in Civ3 :/
I love the GOTM because of the different ways different people approache the same problem and the way it turns out.
But I'll give it another shot while my Civ4 euphoria is still stong enough to cloud my mind ;)

I have no problem with the 5 day wait for the first spoiler, it's only at most 4 days after finishing the game, which is not a long time in my book and it gives everyone a fair amount of time to reach the required point. I think the main problem is the wait for the subsequent spoilers, I often found in the Civ 3 GOTMs that by the time the third spoiler thread was up, the game in question had become ancient history and I often skipped both reading and posting in it

I have no problem with the 5 day wait for the first spoiler, it's only at most 4 days after finishing the game...

...and it gives you time to prepare a nice elaborate report of your game... :mischief:

Civ4 plays faster than Civ3. This means a spoiler schedule designed for Civ3 will seem too slow.

We have two options: slow down the game (epic speed?) or speed up the spoilers. :)

Civ4 plays faster than Civ3. This means a spoiler schedule designed for Civ3 will seem too slow.

We have two options: slow down the game (epic speed?) or speed up the spoilers. :)
Yes - that I agree with.

Is this a problem with when the spoilers are opened, or with the content (including phasing them?) Re the initial spoiler - the 5 days (or thereabouts) is designed to be a balance. Not everyone starts on the very first day, and its nice to give people a weekend before.

Phasing and timing is more about content than cheating, actually. We can open them earlier - I don't have much of a problem with that. In terms of keeping the structure, spoilers are about quality. If the spoilers are split over at least two different phases, then people appear to be more inclined to make substantive posts in each - good discussion of the why as well as the what. The second (and most important) reason is that some people want to contribute to the spoilers as they play - by phasing the spoilers, they can be reasonably sure that they can post their progress and compare with others, without fear that they will read details that they don't want to know and that might reduce the interest / surprise for them.

As far as I'm concerned it is the delay rather than phasing it across multiple threads. Splitting it across multiple threads for different eras I find very helpful for the reasons you mention.

The trouble with the delay is that while writing my own experiences down as I play helps me still make a useful post when the thread opens later on, it doesn't help with reading other people's posts. It's still so much later that memories are hazy and my interest has dwindled.

"So Algie settled his second city near resource X rather than resource Y so he could try a whoosiwhatsits strategy"... that'd be interesting if I still had the foggiest idea where X and Y were and what else was going on at the time in my game. And if I'm playing another civ game by then, I'm probably not so keen to hunt for old saves to remind myself.

(BTW, apologies if the original post sounded harsher than it was meant. The spoiler-nazis I was referring to weren't the admins, but this morning I read two non-spoiling threads both of which were clamped down on by non-admins for potential spoilers, including one where the guy was asking for help because he thought he might have had a bug and didn't know what was going on)

I'm still wondering what the spoilers will actually cover, content-wise. With Civ 3 it was pretty much set in stone that we had an ancient age, middle age, and end game spoiler. This is important so people can take note of their empire at this moment and write a spoiler (at least for the forgetful :mischief: ). With Civ 4 the cutoff point is not clearly defined. Techs, resources, ages, map knowledge, and turns seem to be leading candidates to determine what a spoiler consists of.

Does the staff have any idea what this will be?

So should we be expecting the first spoiler thread tomorrow (5 days after the Thursday release)? This is my first GotM and I'm waiting with bated breath to see how others games are going.

So should we be expecting the first spoiler thread tomorrow (5 days after the Thursday release)? This is my first GotM and I'm waiting with bated breath to see how others games are going.
Yes - or even later today.

I am happy with spoilers earlier.

Pre-release, game saves, spoilers one, spoiler two, etc. Each a few days apart.

Split spoilers is good so you dont read more than you want. Also you have a common measuring point. How much have others built up after the first x turns.

Disadvantage is that it can be difficult to follow people's walkthroughs. In civ3COTM you had to go through 3-4 multipage threads to find the next part of the writeup you were trying to follow. Maybe we could have a growing thread, links to previous parts of the writeup, or use the expanding "spoiler" buttons to have one long thread hidden in parts. Could be complex for all to follow.

We could have a one start spoiler thread (the old 1000BC one). And one for the road to victory.

Well, it would help simply to post a link to the other chapters of your write-up.

Making people wait for the spoiler threads seems silly to me. But, personally, it's likely to take me the entire month to finish the game, so it's never been a problem.

I would also like to see the spoilers earlier, Usually I play the game out in 1 or 2 sessions and I've finished this GOTM the same day I've downloaded it. It's not fun to wait for the spoiler threads to see how other people have done it.

If people want to cheat, they will cheat, an early spoiler thread isn't going to change that IMO.

Am I the only one here who finds the paranoia about spoilers is making this GOTM less fun?

nope... i quit GOTM Civ3 since we could no longer talk about it... the whole point i played GOTM was as you said, not just to win (or loose mostly) but to talk about it with others and see what they thought about my playing style etc.

Now, its just like any other game, since we are no longer allowed to speak about it. But its not going to change....:blush:

nope... i quit GOTM Civ3 since we could no longer talk about it... the whole point i played GOTM was as you said, not just to win (or loose mostly) but to talk about it with others and see what they thought about my playing style etc.

Now, its just like any other game, since we are no longer allowed to speak about it. But its not going to change....:blush:

You're allowed to talk about it once they give the word. I don't see what the problem is personally. One of the points is to keep it an even playing field and posting spoilers about your game all the way to the final victory on the first day the game save is released is unfair to those who may not be able to get the game the day it's released and those who don't play through in all one sitting. I've never really participated in the GOTM's either, this is my first one, but looking from both sides of the fence I understand the various points, but I just think it's fairer to just wait until the word is given. It's not a huge deal, patience is a virtue afterall :D

Now, its just like any other game, since we are no longer allowed to speak about it. But its not going to change....:blush:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=144187

One of the points is to keep it an even playing field and posting spoilers about your game all the way to the final victory on the first day the game save is released is unfair to those who may not be able to get the game the day it's released and those who don't play through in all one sitting.

I don't get it. I play slowly; it' s probably going to take me a couple of weeks to get to the first spoiler. But how does it hurt me if other people start posting in the spoiler thread when their games are fresh in their minds? I think it's actually better for me, because, when I get to that point, I'll have their contemporaneous thoughts to read.

i'm not even gonna risk reading the first spoiler thread till i'm done with the game, cause i dont see how its possible to set "stop points" that everyone could follow.
like if its techs, well, i go after certain techs way before others would even think of getting them, so which spoiler do i read?
same for ages, in most of my games i'm in the third age (whatever its called)usualy before i have all the initial techs (if i dont need them fishing or hunting is usualy left till its less then a turn to get it, or someone trades it to me) so that split wont work well.

some people will go out to meet other civs as soon as possible.
some will meet a neighbor and never bother exploring more (especialy if barbs kill their initial explorer(s) or something). so even that "how much of the world you know" standard wont work.
which leaves resourses, but once you reveal iron, the next "hidden" resourse is 3/4 of the game later with coal or oil, so that dont work well either.

and a combination of these factors will i think come out to prety much always give spoilers to people if they're looking at a thread that is "spoiler" for the period they just finished playing, whatever the criteria.

so i try to write down the important steps in my game so i can remembmer later what happened after what, but i wont look at spoilers till i'm either done with the game, or till i have the whole map, met all the civs, and am going for a future tech 3 or something at which point i may read the "ancient" age spoiler while i'm at work, since i cant play here.

I also think we should open the spoiler threads soon after releasing the save. Maybe we should make a poll about this. :)

Maybe we should make a poll about this. :)

The one problem with polls with the GOTM games is that players tend to fluctuate a lot. You'll have a small handful that play 90% of the time or more. But a large part of the majority appear to play several games and than drop out. There's a good chance in six months over 50% of the players from GOTM1 will not be playing anymore.

Basically, this would mean a poll would have to be taken a couple times a year to maintain the players desires.

I dont mind the delay on full spoilers. i like to be able to explore. I wouldn't mind being able to post my current score at different times though, say at the end of each tech era, just to see how i'm doing compared to others. Thats hardly giving away anything important.

The one problem with polls with the GOTM games is that players tend to fluctuate a lot. You'll have a small handful that play 90% of the time or more. But a large part of the majority appear to play several games and than drop out. There's a good chance in six months over 50% of the players from GOTM1 will not be playing anymore.

Of course in this thread a few of these players have already told us that the spoiler delay is why they dropped out, so I'm not sure that's much of a "problem with polls" on this issue...

Of course in this thread a few of these players have already told us that the spoiler delay is why they dropped out, so I'm not sure that's much of a "problem with polls" on this issue...

Let's make it and we'll see. (I've tried but couldn't figure out how to make polls :crazyeye: ...)

:)

I fail to see why a day or two delay in opening the spoiler could be enough to stop people playing the GOTM. If they are that sensitive to the way the competition is run they were probably going to drop out anyway for some other reason.

If you are going to submit your spoiler the instant you have completed the game, and then never come back to the spoiler thread, you are not going to be a contributor to the discussions with players who complete the game after you, and you will get very little from the community aspects of the game.

I don't know if it's common experience, but I've lost more than a few beautifully crafted posts that I was lovingly typing into the online post editor, only to discover that they disappeared into the Great Bit Bucket because of some glitch in the forum software. So I find it's a good plan to draft your spoiler offline in a text file. That being the case, you just have to save it and then upload it when the thread opens.

Having said all of the above, I don't see many voices in favour of the delayed spoiler threads in the discussion so far. So we'll review the dates for spoiler threads. If players are nervous about their bright ideas being highjacked by later cheating lurkers they can always choose to delay their posts themselves.

You know you can always write your spoiler offline while it is still fresh and post the appropriate portions as the spoiler threads become available. I used to do that with Civ3 GOTMs. I even went so far as to put in image tags for the screenies I planned to upload. :thumbsup:

So, is the real problem remembering what happenned or is it just the impatience to bask in the glory in front of your peers? :mischief:

*Note: The "you" in this post is not meant to apply to anyone specifically.

EDIT: Darn it; X-posted with AlanH

While I agree that I do get impatient waiting for the spoiler threads to open, especially cause I will often play my entire game in one sitting when it first comes out, I would prefer just smaller delays until the spoiler threads come out. One problem with opening them all at once, is that I think you would find that many people would simply post their entire game writeup in the final spoiler, to make it easier for them, and easier for people to follow. Already I see this happen when people finish their games late and the final spoiler is already open. This would be unfair to people who are progressing through the game more slowly, as they would not be able to compare their earlier spoilers with those that are completely in the final spoiler.

I type mine offline first, but without knowing what time period the spoiler covers it's not easy to write it up beforehand. I tend to wait for the thread to open so I know exactly what I can write about and then write my spoiler. Also, since I tend to finish the games very quickly, I get very anxious about the thread opening and I wish I could talk about the game right away. I don't see why I should have to wait a week to be able to talk about it. Some people like the anxiety of waiting, but I don't.

I understand the concern that everyone will just play through their game and only read/post in spoiler 3 and skip over the other two spoilers. I'm sure some people would do that but I don't think most will. But even if they do I don't see the problem with that. As long as they're posting their spoiler I don't care which thread they're posting it in. Having all three spoilers open right away, if anything, will encourage more people to post, IMO. People are more willing to post when the game is fresh in their mind and also more likely to remember what happened.

As for the cheating aspect, I think we've already covered that if someone really wants to cheat then they can easily do so. I don't think delayed spoiler threads has any impact whatsoever on cheating.

I'm done posting in the spoiler. I'm usually so far ahead of the 'spoiler limits' that even reading them is boring.

I don't get it. I play slowly; it' s probably going to take me a couple of weeks to get to the first spoiler. But how does it hurt me if other people start posting in the spoiler thread when their games are fresh in their minds? I think it's actually better for me, because, when I get to that point, I'll have their contemporaneous thoughts to read.

I guess it doesn't really, unless you can't help yourself reading through it. I don't see what the big deal about waiting until it's ready either though. The GOTM takes a month to complete it's results, so why hurry the whole thing. Why not just stroll along at a leisurely pace? It gives everyone time to post their thoughts on various timeframes before moving on to the next phase of the game.

I wonder if it would also be possible to have a limited access sub-forum, that is only readable by users that have already uploaded their save!

I wonder if it would also be possible to have a limited access sub-forum, that is only readable by users that have already uploaded their save!
Technically possible, but would be far too difficult to administrate (and you'd lose the lurkers who don't play but are still interested in reading).

Technically possible, but would be far too difficult to administrate (and you'd lose the lurkers who don't play but are still interested in reading).

Doh... :rolleyes:

Returning to lurker mode....

(Sinks back below the surface of the quagmire)

While I'm not quite done with this month's GOTM yet, I'm still of the opinion that the first spoiler should be posted like within a day of the save being released. I don't understand the "wait one week" philosophy.

I type mine offline first, but without knowing what time period the spoiler covers it's not easy to write it up beforehand. I tend to wait for the thread to open so I know exactly what I can write about and then write my spoiler. Also, since I tend to finish the games very quickly, I get very anxious about the thread opening and I wish I could talk about the game right away. I don't see why I should have to wait a week to be able to talk about it. Some people like the anxiety of waiting, but I don't. Personally I tend to think that waiting a little is just fine but I don't think that anxiety has anything to do with it. One reason is that several people will be ready to post at the same time thus allowing them to comment on each other's games. IMO, it makes for a better discussion if several stories appear all at once. I, for one, have not even started GOTM-2. You probably have finished it. Assuming I get moving in a reasonable amount of time, it would be nice to be able to take part in the discussion.

This being said, I can see no reason at all why you should be forced to hold off your writeup. The thead and the spoiler limits should be posted immediately when the game is released with a caveat that no one is to post in the thread until the 5th at midnight GMT (or whatever).

This allows you to write your spoiler when you are ready to and when your game is still fresh in your mind. The same is true of the second thread. Both should be posted when the game is first opened. Then you can do both your writeups on the first of the month, if you are energetic enough. :crazyeye:

If the mods so chose, it would be possible to lock the thread until the right moment too. I don't know if the forum software is capable of this but best of all would be to allow you to make your post as soon as you want but not have it appear until the chosen moment.

Ok I can see the merit of everyone posting at once to enhance discussion. I guess waiting a week is a good tradeoff for better discussion while not making us wait too long. Take the RB epics as an example of making you wait too long. Sure it's great that everyone can discuss at once, but as a person without any kids/wife I have enough free time to finish these games in less than a week, so if I have to then wait 2-3 weeks to post my spoiler I'll have lost almost all interest in the game, barely remembering it.

So forget that I bumped this thread. The current system works alright.

There's merit both ways and unfortunately it is not possible to please everyone. I don't feel strongly about it; I'm just pointing out the other side of the story.

Incidently, the reason I haven't opened the save is not because I have a wife and kids (although I do); it's because I am trying to understand Epic. It's a very different game.

In any case, the spoiler conditions should be posted immediately. I think this would your satisfy your biggest complaint about the current system.

all I know is that having finished and subitted my game already, I'm not going to remember what happened in three weeks when the late-game spoiler thread deigns to open.

all I know is that having finished and subitted my game already, I'm not going to remember what happened in three weeks when the late-game spoiler thread deigns to open.

You can write it now, and save it, just as easily as you could write it and post it.

You can write it now, and save it, just as easily as you could write it and post it.

It's actually the reading of others' posts that is the problem, not the writing of your own. Sure you can save some text and copy and paste it into the post box a week later, but if you actually wish to engage in a discussion rather than just publish your game log then remembering the game including all the things you didn't write about (resources other civs settled etc) is important.

Another advantage of opening the spoiler threads immediately is that it stimulates people to start on their games. I for one tend to want to read them as quickly as possible ;).

I personally don't see the huge fuss--but it would be nice if the first spoiler was released a day or two after the save was posted, so we could discuss SOMETHING...

I see GOTM 2 as being a very tough one to split though (but I still feel there should be split spoilers--just saying kudos to the GOTM group for the work and thought they do). There are no continents, and eras are so dependent upon what you research. Perhaps this one will see a split based solely on year--ie, only BC posting, or something smilar? We shall see soon...

Perhaps this one will see a split based solely on year--ie, only BC posting, or something smilar?

I don't think so. People would have completely different parts of the map revealed. I think to prevent spoiling people's games you must have complete map visibility for spoiler 1 and haven't learned scientific method (oil) yet.

I may change my mind later, but now I think I like the way it is. I have to admit that currently I am new to Civ IV. Though I have played all the previous versions, I have never won above Warlord. I am currently playing the GoTM 1 to get practice for the GoTM 2 and get used to not reloading after a really bad turn. I have played through to the 1900s and the only reason I came looking for spoilers is because I was bored at work. I could easily wait until I was finished with the game. Who knows though, maybe once I finish number 3 in the first week of Feb I will be more annoyed at the lack of spoiler, but I doubt it.

I have copied this out of a post I made in the GOTM2 first spoiler, but this is the appriopriate place for it.

Ultimately it is up to the Moderators as for my two cents on the spoilers

If there are three spoliers:

Spoiler #1 QSC (As per DaveMcW)
-Eligibility to read & post Criteria meet Ainwood's original spefications (i.e. need iron)
-Final Cut off date 1 AD.

Spoiler #2 Midgame
-Eligibility to read & post Criteria meet Ainwood's original spefications (i.e. need to have met all other civs, discovered another continent etc.)
-Final Cut off date 1000 AD.
(i have tried really hard numerous times and on anything >=noble (standard map...normal GOTM ish settings and winning by this date if Tough)

Spoiler #3 Final Results
-Eligibility to read post Criteria have submitted a Final save game
-Final Cut Nada


In the event of only two spoilers

Spoiler #1-Eligibility to read & post Criteria meet Ainwood's original spefications (i.e. need iron)
-Final Cut off date 500 AD.

Spoiler #2 Final Results
-Eligibility to read post Criteria have submitted a Final save game
-Final Cut Nada

Now that being said who knows if this would actually work.
I have no idea if this would be harder or easier for other players and the Mods but would it be possible the day the game is released(or the day after:goodjob:) to post all two/three spoilers created with the thread locked?It could include the Original post by Ainwood stating
-the conditions which must be met
-The cut of of the spoiler (i.e. 1 AD, 500 AD etc)
-The date that the thread will open

Personally their timming is great (and they were with Civ3GOTM ad COTM even though I never submitted) But IMO this would satify everyone cravings, My observations tell me that people don't neccesarily want to post right away or read right away, but human nature dislikes the unknown. (i.e. will the first spoiler be out on the 6th?, 8th?)

And not to pick on younger players since I am a baby myself at 22 (and have no idea of the age demographics of people wanting early spoilers),
but my brother at age 14 gets restless if we don't give him specifics
i.e. dinner is at six
instead of dinner is tonight
The later results in "when tonight?, why so early? you get the idea


Finally:
This would allow me to play to the point of the end of spoiler one. (since I know when it is) Then I could stop discuss for a couple of days (haha yeah right addictions are good :lol:) then continue to point B adjusting my game plan if need be based on discussions.

The more I look at this, the more I think that dates are a good cut-off for spoilers in Civ4 (well, on pangea lakes / great plains / inland sea / basically anything except continents and archapelago).

I do agree that knowing the spoiler conditions ahead of time is good - because in Civ4 they will change. I am also tending towards three spoilers instead of two - simply because of the sheer number of people playing. The problem with that is whether people can be bothered writing-up three posts.

In short - good idea. :thumbsup:

The more I look at this, the more I think that dates are a good cut-off for spoilers in Civ4 (well, on pangea lakes / great plains / inland sea / basically anything except continents and archapelago).

I do agree that knowing the spoiler conditions ahead of time is good - because in Civ4 they will change. I am also tending towards three spoilers instead of two - simply because of the sheer number of people playing. The problem with that is whether people can be bothered writing-up three posts.

In short - good idea. :thumbsup:I agree with all this and would like to add that lots of people are playing fast so it would be nice if spoolers came out sooner.