Hi This is a little bit of a story but at the same time it really emphasizes the message:

originally posted by ainwood

Please note that some people believe that reloading (in particular) isn't serious cheating. We, however, consider it to be and have zero tolerance on it. Please also be aware that if you do it, we can detect it, and we will act on it.

This was me when I was playing Civ2 GOTM, civ 3 GOTM and civ 3 COTM
I would download the save and use some of these tactics
1. explorer the whole map to find goodie huts
then restart making the best search pattern to get all of if not most of them
2. save before poping a hut if it sucked (i.e. barbarians, man even gold..pretty much anything but a tech) reload and wait until the next turn to pop it.
3. Find out if/how many opponents there are and restart accordingly
4. read spoilers then beggin playing
5. if i started a wonder it got built before me, go back to before i started it
6. go to war, get 3-4 units outside a city, save, attack ==> win cool, lose reload wait until next turn to attack (believe me this is really tedious)
7. the list goes on and on

Basically it was the saving reloading strategy but taken to the utmost extent.

And here is the lesson:

I would never submit a game because I clearly broke umpteen rules.
However I was content to look at the board of scores afterwards and go hmmm Look I would have been 5th, 10th, once I was even first :eek: ...

BUT was I really first NO :sad: not even close it is really :lol: and :blush: when you think about it.

I never saw the thrill of not playing this way I mean why would losing be fun?

However with CIV4 I figured lets try to play the game the honest way
---WOW :eek: talk about an entirely different experience
--so many game play aspects had to be modified...there is too many to list

Was losing fun..no not at all it even made me ask, why did I play this way again?

Until I realized where the fun came from, the winning is so much more sweet when you do win. I am sure all of the creative posters out here could write a poem or come up with quotes of the experience the first time you HONESTLY won a game.


Moral: Play fair: Lose a game, you make a mistake you get :mad: and then that is how you get better and the real fun comes in ;)

I have just finished my first civ4 GOTM (not gonna say how I did no spoiler here)

And with the exception of the one thing I posted here on the exploit/micromanage on which the jury is still out

I will be very proud to submit my first game, even if I end up last on the chart :king:

edit: Modified title, as Thread is taking on new shape :)

I know exactly what you mean.

For civ3 COTMs I did the same thing. Ended up only submitting one. I did learn a lot from SirPleb and other good players, though.

This time I played it through without reloads. It is a very different experience. I have to restrain myself, but let out a few swears and vow to make improvements next time around.

Some examples from other games:

You get a scout from a hut, then lose it to barbarians, too bad. Lesson learnt!

Barbarian Archer runs upto my city with only a warrior as defense. You pray you dont lose it and if you do, you got to take it back. Another lesson leant!

When waging war I tend to forget defense in the back of my nation. The AI in civ4 sails round with galleys and lands on your key resources. Or barbarians hits you from behind. Big lesson learnt!

These lesson are much more powerful if you dont reload and they make you a better player. And the experience is nail-biting and more realistic.

the experience is nail-biting...
You can say that twice.

Most games I feel free to reload and try things again. This was the first GOTM I've ever played, though, and I played it straight through in one sitting. It was harrowing. I paid much more attention to defense and maintaining a standing army than I usually do. I was constantly afraid that somebody would sweep in and grab a city if I left a weak point. The knowledge that I could only play once, and that I couldnt' reload or just start a new game if I started doing poorly, was hanging over me the whole time.

I think honesty is crucial to GOTM, and playing fairly is definitely more fun. I still get a warm glow thinking about playing on after a flip taking out almost my entire cavalry, or accepting communism from TOE after a misclick etc.

I also remember a couple of games in which I tried a "tiny" reload early on, after disorder in the capital or something; it didn't really count, I tried to delude myself, but of course it did, and 5 minutes later I quit the games, annoyed with myself for wasting another chance at GOTM glory. How could I ever look the other players in their virtual eyes again. My inner smugness at being a fair player is more important than winning an imaginary award, although it would have been nice.

I reckon cheating would be pretty easy for a good player with a 4000bc reload, or a read through the spoilers, even without resorting to really slimy tactics or exploits during the game.

Now you see, I have NO problem whatsoever with reloading a game when I am just playing for myself (i.e. after this GOTM is done, I may actually replay it for myself and-in that case-will happily reload games if things are going especially bad). I also have no problem reloading earlier, GOTM saves in order to confirm my moves for the purposes of writing up. When it comes to the game I hand in, though, it will be the result of a continuous play-through as, for me, anything less would not be a true indication of my abilities. Also, though, I feel less inclined to reload ANY of my civ4 games because-unlike civ3-I never truly feel like the computer is cheating. Last night is a 'case in point'-without revealing details, something happened in the GOTM which-had it happened in a standard Civ3 game-I probably would have reloaded or given up. With this game I see it just as a HUGE challenge (and quite exciting). It is wierd how this iteration of the game has changed my outlook on things.
Anyway, hope that all makes sense.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

Congratulations on your discovery.

Playing without reloading does make the game much more of a rollercoaster ride....and certainly does make some of those critical 50-50 odd unit battles, that are critical to something greater (last defender/attacker on a city, etc), the most nail-biting experiences. I have literally jumped out of my chair hooting and hollering when a key battle is barely won. Likewise, i have slumped in my chair thinking..'now what do I do?' when I am on the flip side of the dice roll.

..and you certainly learn from your mistakes (minor or major) when you play without reloading...and you also certainly learn to take your time to ensure you didn't screw up somewhere.... :)

Like most contests, the GOTM can survive a tiny little bit of undetected cheating and dishonesty. But it can't survive a lot. So thanks to all of you who play honestly every turn, from start to finish come what may, for helping to maintain the integrity of the competition.

I was always pretty strict with myself in single player games, unless it was a specific test type game to try something out, but I would always reload from stupid mistakes, like accidently moving my settler towards a barb rather than away from it, or misclicking and givng a tech away rather than trading it. When I started playing Civ 3 GOTMs, which forbid even these reloads, I found I enjoyed it more that way and now do the same in single player. Nothing like still managing to win despite stupidly losing your first settler :) .

i totally agree... this is why i do this.


1) save the civ GOTM file... and make all saves after that rewrite over that save.
so i press enter... something happens, and i save over the file.

that way i cant reload unless i am willing to go back and re download the file

I would do that too Juballs but, as I said, when I get VERY carried away and play for ages, I might forget all the things I did which got me to that point-which is a real pain for someone like me who wants to document his journey properly. So those saved games can be a good way to go back and rehash what I did in earlier turns and-possibly more importantly-get those all important screenshots I might have forgotten to take first time out.
Found out that this approach doesn't always work-however-when a tribal village that only gave me money in my REAL game gave me a technology in my 'rehash'. Damn that was annoying, as it meant that it wasn't reliable as a 'rehash' (though it did tell me about WHERE the village was and WHEN I 'popped' it!)

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

yeah, a mistake having concequences i think is what makes the real difference.

I played the game DiabloII in the past, this game had a so called hard-core mode. In this mode, when your character died (RPG game) you had to start all over again from scratch and you lost 100's hours of work. That is what kept the game intresting.

The game also does not have a save option, when you end the game it will automatically save. When you start again, it will load that last save. This even worked when you exited the game with ALT+F4 or when your PC locked up.

This is a very good system and i would like to see it in every game. Not only does it make it much easier for you not to cheat, it also makes it much easier for you not to forget making a save before you leave your PC in a hurry or if your PC has a techical failure.

Yeah, you're absolutely right Memphus!

I played Civ and Civ2 in the ways you mentioned:
save, pop goody hut ---> save and continue if good return
---> reload and try again if bad return

I didn't know any better. I wasn't shown how to play the game.
I picked it up and discovered that goody huts changed every time you tried them. My way of thinking at the time was:
"Hey, the AI has so many (unfair) advantages that it's only fair, isn't it?"

But, after entering this wonderful community it soon made me realise that there was another way and this one (that I was using) wasn't acceptable.

Without spoiling the thread (hopefully), I just want to say that I only made it to 1AD and lost (with a score of 0) so I doubt you will be last, Memphus!

However, I realised during play early on (but too late) that I'd made a fundamental error that had caused me to do so badly.

On playing the game a second time, and making that correction, I can see that I have played a hundred times better and have a really strong Roman empire now.

However, that is the SECOND time I have played it.

It is a totally different game when EVERY decision you make is EXTREMELY important.

I love it! I love the stress of making sure you get it right, first time, every time! I just wish I was a better player...

@ deadloss

Well you never know... :mischief: like I said no spoiler good :lol: or bad :sad: about my game :lol:

@ anyone more experienced than me I was wondering about what deadloss did replaying the same GOTM but submitting his first honest attempt, I was under the impression of not playing it a second time until the submission deadline had passed. But if not I really want to try it again :)

Way to go, Memphus! :goodjob: Thanks for starting this thread.

It seems to me that it is less important to stress 'honest play' for the competition of the 4toM than for the actual benefits to each player's experience. Hopefully as more people pick up and play this new edition of Civ (which admirably minimizes those OOPS moments such as city unrest, over/underspending and scout jeopardy), they will discover the real enjoyment of the risks and glory of how their story unfolds. I just finished this first 4otM, and I must say that it was as big a thrill as my best 3otM. And all the more so because I just accepted the risks and outcomes as they came, which I admit I don't always do.:blush:

@ deadloss

Well you never know... :mischief: like I said no spoiler good :lol: or bad :sad: about my game :lol:

@ anyone more experienced than me I was wondering about what deadloss did replaying the same GOTM but submitting his first honest attempt, I was under the impression of not playing it a second time until the submission deadline had passed. But if not I really want to try it again :)

What I generally do is finish the game, submit the save, move all the game files to a safe folder (away from the normal save area) and try again.

I figure from this that I learn how it should have been done. However, that said - I never generally had time to play the replay to the full as both the COTM and the GOTM took up most of my spare time each month.

But as a trend, I guess I tend to play more aggressively in the re-attempt.

And...I usually felt as though it was worth another attempt after doing so terribly the first time (if I had done badly). It's funny how I think that EVERY month lately... :blush:

@ anyone more experienced than me I was wondering about what deadloss did replaying the same GOTM but submitting his first honest attempt, I was under the impression of not playing it a second time until the submission deadline had passed. But if not I really want to try it again :)
I see no reason why you shouldn't replay at any time you want *after* you've submitted your first attempt. The only way that could have any impact on the game in progress would be if you spill any beans to other players. You should, of course, honour the spoiler rules however many times you've played it.

My first try to GTOM, too.

When my soldier dead in the battle, it's really hard for me not to hit the Ctrl-L to start with. However, it's also really enjoyable to see that when i was thinking it would be a total disaster the next turn, and the stupid AI made several key mistakes which allow me to reorganize my army, then turned the tide of battle the other way and won it.

I know I did something like this in Civ3:Conquests (COTM). In the game as England (Emporer), I was quickly killed off by a swarm of Germans :mischief:. So, I went and announced my loss to the COTM thread, went back, and tried to see if I could play the game a little more effectively-without any pressure given that I was already out of contention!
Hope that helps.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

Tha's definitely my case, just used to reload when things came to disorder o did disappoint me.

That's WHY I literally SUCK in this game, reloading doing things only whne the result is satisfing OR to correct your mistakes does NOT make you any better at the game.....really.

And my first games at C-III where fashioned this way too, but I discovered that I did SUCK anyway...I was not able to get a head in the game EVEN this way.

I did not focus on mechanics, I did not focus on strategies and management, I was only off to get the "best" result from any move.

I just can say this was useless way to game.

I tried a different approach with C-IV, and that's why I participated in this GOTM-01 also, to find myself FORCED to play a fair game since there is competition....friendly but stll competition.

Well, I did fairly bad IMO in this GOTM, but I am still satisfied to what I was able to do, and it did teach me some aspects of the game I wasn't aware of (at leatst not FULLY aware)
Hopefully NOW I am a little better at (at least!) understanding game mechanics....:)

When I will get back home I will finally submit my files, nicely showing in the lower (or -est) part of the chart. :lol:

I too don't really see any point in cheating in the GOTM. I'm happy to submit losing games- helping to fight the 'reporting bias' that only people who kicked ass tend to upload their results... :)

I'm relatively new to the Civ3 GOTM, but found the gotm community to be really helpful in trouble shooting my own play. So if you suck (like me), use the spoilers as a friendly learning forum. Not only do you get to see great players eloquently break down their games, but they are often willing to respond to the "the persians defeated me in 2000bc, what did I do wrong" kinds of questions. I've even had people look at my saved games...

Any word if we are going to get a 'Hunting tips' or whatever the special threads that appeared periodically in Civ3gotm specifically for helping newbies? I can see how it might be hard right away when we are beginners, but I'd put in a vote to make that a regular feature as soon as it makes sense.

edit- @wackedopenair- your diabloII hard core situation reminds me of an old text-based graphics game called Angband. Die, and you've lost a bazillion hours of work. However, if you found a special monster you could save right before you were about to kill it and keep force-quitting/reloading the game until the monster spewed a good magical item for your character.

In the current C4-GOTM, I had a stack of Cats fortified in a city (maybe a dozen or more). Well, I right-clicked on one of them and, not paying attention, hit UPGRADE. Guess what? It happened to be that the Entire Stack was selected, costing me around $1800!!!! Yikes, that's some SERIOUS cash in CIVIV. If it wasn't a GOTM, I would have re-loaded and not felt the worse for it.
Sure would be nice if the game gave a confimation window, saying "This upgrade will cost $1865. Continue?" Um.....no, I don't want to spend that kind of cash on seige units just yet......

I personally think that CIVIV went overboard with the "hover" window. The damned thing shorts out quite a bit yet, and doing things like upgrading units where the hover info is stuck over on the bottom left in a semi-transparent format, well, just sucks.

If that happened to me I would have PM'd the GOTM staff and asked if it was ok to reload from an autosave and replay the same way without the mis-click.

It didn't upgrade the whole stack, only what I could "afford", so it basically left me next to broke. Not a major setback, and I certainly learned a lesson. I'm too used to the old right-click on the city, select A SINGLE UNIT and upgrade. Those damned 'joined stacks' that come from using 'select all' have gotten me into trouble more than once, and probably will again.

Upgrades seem to be quite expensive in CIVIV. I find that I am buidling new and disbanding old more than I am upgrading.

It was a kick in the teeth, but I am way out front in this game, so I'll survive it. If it was on a higher difficulty level, I probably would have approached the staff about a re-load. Of course, on higher difficulty, I wouldn't have had that kind of cash available! (ha!)

Also, though, I feel less inclined to reload ANY of my civ4 games because-unlike civ3-I never truly feel like the computer is cheating. Last night is a 'case in point'-without revealing details, something happened in the GOTM which-had it happened in a standard Civ3 game-I probably would have reloaded or given up. With this game I see it just as a HUGE challenge (and quite exciting). It is wierd how this iteration of the game has changed my outlook on things.
Well-put. This iteration has changed my outlook too. And I think it's a matter of respecting the game more--the play-balancing, the AI, the fairness of things that have random components.

Part of that greater respect is due to knowing that so many dedicated individuals--many of whom hang out here!--playtested and balanced this thing for so long and so devotedly. Regardless of our varied, and often very frustrating, technical experiences, I would think most folks would agree that this version is much better designed than Civ III was out-of-the-gate.

And part of the respect springs from differences in the way playing Civ IV just plain feels to me. I'd be more specific here, but it's Friday afternoon and my brain is acting like it's trying to scroll around an 18-player Terra map circa 1920 AD. Those memory leaks can sure be a ***** as one gets older... :crazyeye:

Now, just where am I going to build that first city when I start the GOTM this evening? Ponder, ponder, ponder, ponder...

-- Kevin

In response to:

Please note that some people believe that reloading (in particular) isn't serious cheating. We, however, consider it to be and have zero tolerance on it. Please also be aware that if you do it, we can detect it, and we will act on it.

It is my first game of the month and I did not know that people could not reload their saved games.

I reloaded my saved game and I want to be honest that I could not have achieved the same results if I would not have played with reloading in mind.

I did not change my basic strategy after reloading, it only allowed me to play "with more risk" and thus get better results. I did this because I wanted to achieve the best result possible.

If reloading is not in the spirit of the game though, then disqualify me, but please do not blame me, I was not aware I was not supposed to.

For the record, I won a cultural victory in 1890 and I have a clear general strategy on how to win a cultural victory. I may write it down someday to share with you.

Umm... I reloaded this GOTM, multiple times. I had to, because my system isn't all that, and I would bog down terribly (Thankfully Harkonnen's fix lets me play at least standard). Since I have autosave set to the default 4 turns, I had no choice but to replay some turns.

If this is considered to be unacceptable, then please, by all means, withdraw my entry. I'm sure it wasn't good enough to win anything anyway, but I don't want to be branded a "cheater" because my system is not the latest and greatest.

I don't want to be branded a "cheater"

- This competition is being played with a new chunk of slightly buggy software, on rigs that may or may not be up to the challenge.

- We have 250 new GOTM players in this game to date. There are more *new* players in this game than the *total* entries we had in any Civ3 GOTM. Some of them may even have read the rules :rolleyes:

Software crashes happen. If they happen to excess then please PM to let us know at the time of submission so that we can take it into account when reviewing your entries.

No player is "branded" a cheat on the strength of actions or events in a single game, whether as a result of crashes or ignorance of the rules. Some entries will be excluded from the results where it is established that they fall outside the rules. But that doesn't make those players cheats, and we hope they will continue to submit future games, played in the spirit of fair competition.

Thanks for the quick response... perhaps i should have chosen my words better there. I'm not upset and it's really no big deal... I just wanted to be up front and say that yea, verily, I did reload this game. I never really thought about crash reloads before on my previous submissions (granted civ3 didn't crash nearly as much) but as I said, I wanted to be right up front about it after reading this thread.

I was really happy to see a GOTM so quickly... Keep up the good work, and thanks!

Late Edit: I hope we stick to standard for a while... I doubt my machine could take much more. :/

Maybe, after Civ4 GotM1 is completed, the admins could email all the participants. Something like, "Thanks for playing! We loved all the participation. By the way, to those of you who might be new here, we've enclosed a copy of the rules..."

Maybe, after Civ4 GotM1 is completed, the admins could email all the participants. Something like, "Thanks for playing! We loved all the participation. By the way, to those of you who might be new here, we've enclosed a copy of the rules..."Hmm, I think people here are all net-savvy and know how to find things they need. Things like, say the starting save... :mischief:
The results will be published on the gotm-site I suggest people having a look round while they are there. :)

I think SwedishChef has a good idea. I would zip the save together with a text document that just reminded people to read the rules and had a hyperlink to the GOTM website rule page.

Do you really think players who can't take the time to check the link from the download page will take the trouble to open a readme file and work out how to open a link from there? I suspect the heads-up emails we are sending out will have greater effect.

Getting a pm from one of the GOTM staff informing you your submission was disqualified due to reason x IMO is about the best way to learn from your mistakes.:D

Reminds me, I need to finish GOTM1.:sad:

You might have seen the thread, but my game crashed all the way no auto saves no nothing. I havent restarted playing the gotm. I want to know if restarting because of computer meltdown is legal

Restarting is not allowed under any circumstances, as you have seen some of the map and the reactions of the AI. You cannot "forget" what you have seen, and so you cannot compete at an equal level of ignorance to other players.

In Civ 3 GOTM, you could "legally" view your rival civs by pressing the F10 Spaceship screen.

Is reviewing rivals allowed in Civ 4 GOTM, and if so, how do you do it? :)

so you cannot compete at an equal level of ignorance to other players.

I think he called us all ignorant. :cry:

... only as ignorant ... of the map ... as every other player should be :rolleyes:

@EMan: Why would they have opened up the same hole they left in Civ3? (Actually I read somewhere that they did :rolleyes: ) There was no way we could control, monitor or detect access to F10 in Civ3, and it was custom and practice with far too many players, so it just had to be tolerated. If an equivalent option exists in Civ4 it'll probably be treated in the same way. Think of it as an option you can choose to use, giving you the same information as if you had started a random map but defined the rivals. If you want to slightly increase the suspense for more excitement, then don't use it ... and then brag in the spoilers.

Yes - I know of no way to find out who your rivals are in Civ4 - and I think its by design (even the 'greatest civilization' pop-ups don't have the civ names, nor do wonder completions etc).

I think I remember reading somewhere that the Top 5 cities can indirectly give away civs from the city names. I haven't verified it myself.

Hmm, I think people here are all net-savvy and know how to find things they need. Things like, say the starting save... :mischief:
The results will be published on the gotm-site I suggest people having a look round while they are there. :)

I guess, to me, it's a question of, "What problem are we, er... you, trying to solve?"

I think the "net-savvy," and "conscientious," and "detail-oriented" people are probably going to track down the rules.

But a few things led me to make the suggestion.

1. I heard that the Civ4 GotM1 has more NEW submitters than the total number of submitters in any previous GotM. I can neither confirm nor deny this, it's just what I read.

2. After this thread was started, several good-hearted people said, "Crap! I didn't know. I'm sorry. Disqualify me if need be!" These people are presumably neither evil nor stupid, yet they had not read the rules.

3. I had previously read the rules and submitted a Civ3 Conquests GotM. Yet when I went to submit this one, despite being "net-savvy," I went to the "Game Release Page," clicked on "Submit GOTM" on the left hand column, and ended up at the Civ3 submission page - which is just called "GOTM and Medal Play Submission Form." No mention of Civ3.

I presumed it had been modified to accept Civ4 games and had several failed submissions. It took some time to find the other page we were supposed to use.

That's not a criticism of your web site design. It's just evidence that anybody, well at least I can make mistakes, despite (or perhaps because of) the huge amount of useful information and opportunities provided here.

If there is a problem - and you would know better than I - with people submitting saves within which they broke the rules, then I'd say one way to solve part of that problem is with a friendly email like I described. "Thanks! By the way, sadly we had 15% of entries disqualified. We know you weren't trying to cheat, you probably haven't read the rules. Here they are..." Followed by at least a summary of the rules - not an attachment or link.

I'd agree that my "solution" doesn't address all problems. Not by a long shot. But if there's a problem with new people not "doing their homework," in their enthusiasm for Civ4, then maybe it might help.

But I acknowledge it's your site, and your choice to make. I enjoy the site, by the way. It's been very helpful. And I look forward to future GotMs.

@AlanH, ainwood & Denniz: Thanks for the feedback on the GOTM Civ 4 rivals. :thanx:

Yes, it was a "hole" in Civ 3.....perhaps they figured most people would be specifying the rivals pre-game, so it wouldn't matter?

Anyways, it does make it more of a challenge not to know the rivals........However, unlike some of the Top Players, I'm not into "Handicapping Myself"..........GOTM is plenty tough enough for me at "Open" level!.....especially recently! ;)

So, just wanted to make sure the "Rivals Info" wasn't "legally" available somewhere. :)

I'd agree that my "solution" doesn't address all problems. Not by a long shot. But if there's a problem with new people not "doing their homework," in their enthusiasm for Civ4, then maybe it might help.
I hope you don't feel patronized by my reaction, but I'd like to stress that it's the responsablility of the player to know the rules before entering the competition. There's also stickied thread in this forum explaining them.

Like you already know we have a *lot* of entries (which is a "good thing"TM in itself :D) keeping us busy enough as it is without having to sent extra emails "just in case" people are not aware of the rules. As AlanH said people who don't stick to them will be notified on an individual basis.

As I read this threat I'm a little surprise people haven't read the rules of the competition.
for the load/reloading problem, GOTM staff have tools in order to check this parameters for CIV3. I hope this tool will be also alvailable for CIV 4, isn't it ?

LeSphinx

I'm just kind of curious - how do you check for reloading? I mean, what's different about a game file with a reload where you cheated from one where you saved before bed and started playing the next day after work? Are we supposed to play though in one sitting without saving/reloading even for work/sleep/etc?

That said, I messed up and quit without saving - I reloaded the autosave, which was on the last turn, saved and quit. That was my savegame submission. If that's wrong, you should disqualify me.

for the load/reloading problem, GOTM staff have tools in order to check this parameters for CIV3. I hope this tool will be also alvailable for CIV 4, isn't it ?

It is. Both the GOTM/HOF staff have the same tools...

@LeSphinx: I hope you meant "thread" :mischief: Sure we have similar tools. The last couple of months since Civ4 was released have been a fairly intensive effort to develop them. And wouldn't it be nice not to have to use them?

@SwedishChef: Please review this post, where the game was announced and indicate how the rules could have been made any clearer for new players. The fact is that a lot of people simply don't read stuff. We could plaster it all over our signatures, our web pages and our posts, and it would still be ignored.

I posted the new player statistic, and it's true. We have over 350 submissions for C-IV GOTM 01. More than 250 of those players have never played a GOTM before. The highest submissions for any previous GOTM were 240-ish. We have to accept that with lots of new players we'll have lots of education to do.

Yes, if you reach the Civ3 submission page you may have found it difficult to track down the Civ4 one early on. However, the key pages now offer links on the right hand side for Civ4 GOTM, and I'll try to enhance the pages and the error messages to give better clues ... when I get time. A relatively small number of players have notified us of any problems with the submission process, but my apologies to anyone who did have trouble.

Yes, if you reach the Civ3 submission page you may have found it difficult to track down the Civ4 one early on. However, the key pages now offer links on the right hand side for Civ4 GOTM, and I'll try to enhance the pages and the error messages to give better clues ... when I get time. A relatively small number of players have notified us of any problems with the submission process, but my apologies to anyone who did have trouble.I think the layout is a problem. On a 800x600 screen the Civ 4 section is offscreen to the right. I didn't notice it at all.

Uhuh! If 800 x 600 is still widely used I'd better cut down drastically on the information per screen :eek: Can you play Civ4 in 800 x 600?

I think Civ requires 1024x768. I'm assuming 1024x768 or higher for the HOF site.

Uhuh! If 800 x 600 is still widely used I'd better cut down drastically on the information per screen :eek: Can you play Civ4 in 800 x 600?I'm using a different computer to play civ 4...the lowest resolution setting is 1024x768. So this might not be a problem then, but it happened to me.

350 submission for the first C-IV GOTM !!!
Well it's great! I'm realy impressed!
Thanks to all the good job the GOTM staff have done since a long time now...

I'm looking foward to see the result!

LeSphinx

350 submission for the first C-IV GOTM !!!

Actually I said "Over 350". We are at 386 and counting ...

Actually I said "Over 350". We are at 386 and counting ...

Hopefully one more...:sad:

As I read this threat I'm a little surprise people haven't read the rules of the competition.
for the load/reloading problem, GOTM staff have tools in order to check this parameters for CIV3. I hope this tool will be also alvailable for CIV 4, isn't it ?

LeSphinx

We have better tools already for CivIV than for CivIII, and the potential is there for even better to be developed. Our goal is to be able to tell what flavor of Juicy Juice you were drinking while you played. :scan:


I'm just kind of curious - how do you check for reloading? I mean, what's different about a game file with a reload where you cheated from one where you saved before bed and started playing the next day after work? Are we supposed to play though in one sitting without saving/reloading even for work/sleep/etc?

Excessively high numbers of reloads (suggesting a player who compulsively replays after making a mistake or after getting an undesired RNG roll); many reloads within a short number of turns during wars (suggesting a player who replays unsuccessful battles over and over again until he likes the result); a few other less common things.

Of course you're not expected to play through in one sitting. We're not out to make honest players' lives difficult. Play naturally and honestly, and you will almost certainly trigger no warning bells. The reload rule means one thing and one thing only, and it's very simple. Don't ever reload in order to change a game action or decision. Live with your mistakes as well as your moments of inspiration. You're sculpting in marble here rather than clay -- if you chip off your Athena's arm, you'll have to make the best of her being armless.

That said, I messed up and quit without saving - I reloaded the autosave, which was on the last turn, saved and quit. That was my savegame submission. If that's wrong, you should disqualify me.

Did you change anything within the game by reloading the autosave to finish the game? No, so it's essentially the same thing as reloading from a crash, which is explicitly permitted by the rules. No worries.

@SwedishChef: Please review this post, where the game was announced and indicate how the rules could have been made any clearer for new players. The fact is that a lot of people simply don't read stuff. We could plaster it all over our signatures, our web pages and our posts, and it would still be ignored.

I hesitate to reply, since I don't really want to continue this as "a conflict." It was just a suggestion - and as I said, you have more experience running a site like this than I do. I am not at all offended that you might well decide not to take the suggestion.

But since you asked, I will try to explain honestly (and politely! :) )

I think you have a great challenge because, like many web sites, you're trying to serve many different "customers," if you will. Those who have played Civ over 10 years, those who've played less than 10 days. 12-year-olds and 72-year-olds. People who spend 40 hours per week playing Civ and people who spend 4 hours per week, when they're lucky.

Perhaps it is my style of thinking, or reading web sites, that is the problem. (Although I knew the rules from when I submitted a CotM in the past.)

I honestly NEVER SAW the post you quote above (until I clicked on the link in your post). I saw the announcement on the front CivFanatics page, clicked to the game release page, and downloaded the game. No fuss, no muss!

Now, I do NOT mean to criticize the way you run the site. These are simply observations:


There is no mention of rules on the main-page announcement of Civ4 GOTM1.
The only mention of rules on the main game release page is the big red "No Spoilers!" section.


I don't claim that there should be. I'm just observing that there is not. This is one of the things that came to mind when I read the posts by the people who said, "Uh, rules? I didn't know there were rules... I guess I broke them."

There is a link on the left to, "Your first visit to the land of GOTM." That page immediately points to the rules. There is also a link to "Code of Conduct," though I think many might well take that to mean "about the site," as opposed to "about the game you're going to download, play, and submit." The GOTM site is sort-of separate from the CivFanatics site, but I think most people would think of them as "one big site."

These two links are repeated in the blue section at the upper right of the page.

But, of course, the thing everybody is looking for is the big link at the bottom of the page to the save file.

I agree that it is the responsibility of the player to know the rules. How could I disagree?

But I'm one of those people who is "just trying to get something done." That's an awkward phrasing. What I mean is that I don't read every thread in every forum. I don't even read every GOTM thread. I don't read every post in any thread I do read (though I try to never post in a thread I'm haven't read completely - hence 30 posts in eighteen months - or however long I've been registered here). So when I download the GOTM, or try to submit it, I take whatever path seems most direct to me. I imagine I'm not alone in that.

There are so many paths to any piece of information (as there should be) that it is hard - as you've pointed out - to insure that anybody sees anything in particular.

I have no particular problem with the CivFanatics site in general. The post you quote does, indeed, refer clearly to the rules. I simply suggest that when people report being unaware of the rules, some additional steps might be taken to spread the word about them, such as the email I mentioned. I understand that you have conisdered it, and rejected it. And I'm OK with that. Really. :cool:

Thank you for your time, and your work on this site.

In light of the discussion, this thread should probably be renamed "How to make CIV even more fun!" This is much more than a lesson in honesty. I came back to CIV after playing Diablo and Sacred for a while. In Sacred especially, playing "hardcore" (where when you die, you die) is 10x more fun that having no penalty for messing up. It brings in an extra dose of realism for the game.

I have one son who likes to set up scenarios with Age of Empires where fifty fire cannons on one team roast one poor foot soldier on another team. It is an amusing exercise, but it is certainly not playing the game, and it is much less fun.

@Veritass

Great Idea! Update has been made :)....But only in the title of the OP :(
Unfortunately I believe that I do not have the power to change the title of the thread in the Forum. This is for the all powerful mods to decide :king:

Done.

Actually GOTM1 was my first game of the month ever. I was aware of the rules, and a bit afraid because I usually tend to reload a lot during my regular games.
I had a really good game, where I made some mistakes and paid for it, and I definitely know where I could do better on my next game.
And I think that from now on, I will play every game in that way, even the one where I have a crappy start, just to see my limits. I wonder how long that will last :)
But I will definitely play every GOTM from now on. I see that as my Civ4 exam ;)

One MOST enjoyable facet of Civ 4 over Civ3........Now, I can actually hibernate my laptop computer while Civ 4 is running.......so presumably, when on the road, if the battery dies, the game will come back up upon inserting a charged battery. (The batteries seem to run out of juice before they say they will!......AND, Civ 3 running on my Dell Inspiron 9100 would ALWAYS abort with a newly loaded battery!)

The number of times I had to "Reload" Civ 3 for GOTM was so embarrassing, I started to feel guilty....even though I wasn't cheating! :blush: :blush:

(For Newcomers, you CAN Legally Reload if the Game/Computer crashes....the GOTM Police are really quite reasonable people, REALLY!!)

Yes - I know of no way to find out who your rivals are in Civ4 - and I think its by design (even the 'greatest civilization' pop-ups don't have the civ names, nor do wonder completions etc).

How about top 5 cities screen? Names of cities are unambiguously linked to civilizations. Although you couldn’t know all of them, you can get information about some.

Yes, solenoozerec, you're spot-on there. I guess if you don't settle your capital city in 4000BC, there's a good chance you would see up to 5 of the other civs via the F9 screen!

I wonder if ainwood's GOTM Gang are looking at a way to patch that out........never personally thought the Top 5 Cities List was much use anyways! :)

I wonder if ainwood's GOTM Gang are looking at a way to patch that out
See my previous post here. Ainwood hasn't commented, of course, and he's the boss. So I reserve the right to be wrong.

Here's my personal take on a lot of what has come up recently:

Perhaps contrary to popular belief, I'm not a control freak who spends all day fretting over how we can change this game to suit our evil master plans. By and large, I think we should try to play it as it comes. It's Firaxis' game, not ours, and the GOTM should play as far as possible the way your own private games would play. If Firaxis have decided in their wisdom to let you see five city names then why should we worry? That's the game we're playing, and we aren't here to redesign it. Our efforts as GOTM staff should be, and are, focused on ensuring that all players have the same information as they play the games. Hence the emphasis on no reloading and on the spoiler rules.

See my previous post here. Ainwood hasn't commented, of course, and he's the boss. So I reserve the right to be wrong.

Here's my personal take on a lot of what has come up recently:

Perhaps contrary to popular belief, I'm not a control freak who spends all day fretting over how we can change this game to suit our evil master plans. By and large, I think we should try to play it as it comes. It's Firaxis' game, not ours, and the GOTM should play as far as possible the way your own private games would play. If Firaxis have decided in their wisdom to let you see five city names then why should we worry? That's the game we're playing, and we aren't here to redesign it. Our efforts as GOTM staff should be, and are, focused on ensuring that all players have the same information as they play the games. Hence the emphasis on no reloading and on the spoiler rules.
Pretty-much what my thoughts are too.

I realise that at some times it may seem like I/we are being the 'fun police', but in reality we're trying to facilitate your game, not force you into playing our one.

Re the cities in the top5 cities list, its probably an oversight / bug on Firaxis' part, given the efforts they've made to hide the civ names elsewhere in the game. Personally, I prefer not to know what the other civs are in the game (I never use F10 in Civ3 either) - but we're never going to try and legislate some rule against looking at that screen!

I, personally, would like to see real exploits removed from the game where possible, so that the games are about skill and strategy, rather than about manipulating the game engine (and I don't see these city names as an exploit anyway). However, I don't think that even when the SDK comes out we'll be looking to mod anything more than perhaps a scoring mechanism that the GOTM community can agree on!

...It's Firaxis' game, not ours...Couldn't agree more with this statement........'bin singing this song at HOF for the past couple of years.

As long as the Playing Field is Level and everybody has the same advantages/disadvantages, why re-invent The Wheel, so to speak? (Except in The Game, of course! :mischief: )

My only Major Wish for Civ 4 was that Firaxis would have a Championship Mode whereby you could only load/save ONE file. Somebody said this was in effect for another strategy game......But, can't remember the name. :)