Monasteries are required to build missionaries unless Org Rel is one of your civics. Yet once you discover Sci Meth, monasteries become obsolete, so unless your religious civic is Org Rel, you can't build missionaries in the late game. I know the upkeep for Org Rel is high, but the benefits are enormous. I *never, ever* build monasteries; in the early game I tend to beeline to Monotheism, adopt Org Rel, hurry a few missionaries, & send them to my rivals before they convert to a religion other than my state rel. Then I spread my rel to my own cities so I can build temples, hire priests & generate Great Prophets. I tend to play at Settler so I can found all 7 rels, & last game I played, I managed to spread all 7 to almost all my cities shortly before (or maybe shortly after) I built the UN. So by the time I passed the res to make Free Rel global, I no longer needed missionaries; the diversity would provide +7 happiness per city once Free Rel took effect. So all in all, the only religious civic I find useful (until late game) is Org Rel.

in my first game, i played a vassalage-theocracy war-monger. great fun.

the bonus 2xp from theocracy, plus 2xp from vassalage, plus 2xp from barracks, plus being an aggressive civ, meant that my units were coming out with combat I plus two upgrades.

so, theocracy has its uses :D

ew

Also once you get to mid levels you won't be founding all 7 religions. I'm a bit unclear though, does Theocracy stop religions other than your state religion from spreading to your cities, or does it stop religions based in holy cities you control but not your state religion from spreading to foreign cities, or what?

It stops rels other than your state rel from spreading to your own cities. The holy cities for other rels, no matter who controls them, can still spread those rels to civs not using Theo, just not to your own cities.

Theocracy = Your cities are 100% resistant to the 6 religions that aren't your state religion.

Theocracy is great for the XP boost. Barracks + theocracy = 6xp = level 3. Add in vassalage and they're near level 4. There's advantages to adding vassalage, but theocracy is also great because it lets you run bureaucracy without worrying about your military.

Preventing enemy religions from infiltrating is also useful. Especially when you consider that the founder of that religion gets spy vision right into your cities if his religion spreads.

Pacifism is something I always prioritize if I'm a philosophical civilization. If I combine Philosophical with the Parthenon I get some serious amounts of great people. Let alone if I add in the Great Library in one city, or National Epic in another. Prioritizing great people is one way a peaceful player can surge ahead of everyone else.

Every civic has a purpose. Well, except Environmentalism and Nationalism. Haven't found uses for those yet. And slavery is a little iffy, too.

The premise of the original post is wrong though.

Monasteries becoming obsolete means 2 things:

they do not give 10% science bonus, and they cannot be built.

Existing monasteries still give culture (just like any obsolete wonder still gives culture) and still allows you to build missionaries of that religion.

I always build monasteries in cities where I need hapiness and more importantly in my science cities. CAn't have enough +10% science (multiple religions = multiple 10% boni!)

Other civis are very useful too btw. Theocracy for the +2 XP on each unit. Vassalage + theocracy + heroic epic + barracks + west point + pentagon = 18 XP if I'm not mistaken! for a unit that hasn't even fought yet. That's 4 promotions. 5 if you're aggressive (Start with combat I).

Pacifism. I always hesitate between Pacifism and Org Rel. When Pacifism usually becomes available I'm in a big building stage, so I need all the extra production from org rel. However, pacifism gives all those nice GPP boost... Like dh_epic said, it's killer with a Phi leader.

Free religion - all that free science and hapiness? Who'd say no. You could even say it's a free monastery in every city. Sure you lose line of sight if you've founded some religions, but hey, by this time in the game, do you really need it that much?

Are you sure they can still build missionaries?
I thought only the culture stays when a thing expires.

I haven't had a chance to play since the patch came out and my negotiating screens were messed up before, can you order someone to change civics to one you're not using yourself? Can I demand the British switch from slavery to something else they have but they don't have what I'm using?

There's one thing they forgot to put in the game, or decided not to - persecution. Players with non-liberal civics should be able to try and remove foreign religions from their cities, at the cost of a huge long-term image problem among nations with those religions or that have advanced enough civics to imply a conscience. A game with religion, history and even fascism but no persecution is silly, hundreds of years of European history were dominated by attempts to destroy local Catholocism, Protestantism, Islam, Judaism, etc.

Every civic has a purpose. Well, except Environmentalism and Nationalism. Haven't found uses for those yet. And slavery is a little iffy, too.

Environmentalism has a purpose, that of boosting your population in the end, when your city growth is usually blocked by health, not happiness. It is just so much weaker than state property in most cases that noone thinks of using it, except maybe for milking purposes.

Environmentalism has a purpose, that of boosting your population in the end, when your city growth is usually blocked by health, not happiness. It is just so much weaker than state property in most cases that noone thinks of using it, except maybe for milking purposes.

With the victory condition looming, it's hard to see how lifting the population cap will help you that much. Especially when growth is so slow by the time you're that high on population. Not to mention that the few extra population points just doesn't help you towards conquest, the space race, or culture.

I can confirm that you can continue to build missionaries in cities with the appropriate monastery, even after the discovery of Scientific Method. Hence, one of my priorities upon acquiring a religion is to build monasteries in at least one city, so I have missionaries available throughout the game.

I can confirm that you can continue to build missionaries in cities with the appropriate monastery, even after the discovery of Scientific Method. Hence, one of my priorities upon acquiring a religion is to build monasteries in at least one city, so I have missionaries available throughout the game.

Just wondering, did you test that post-patch?

Theocracy = Your cities are 100% resistant to the 6 religions that aren't your state religion.

I'm pretty sure this only applies to cities that actually have your state religion. I played a game the other day in where I was using Theocracy, and one of my cities got a different religion. Which made me notice that city didn't have my state religion. I've never seen another religion spread to a city with my state religion while using Theocracy.

I can confirm that you can continue to build missionaries in cities with the appropriate monastery, even after the discovery of Scientific Method. Hence, one of my priorities upon acquiring a religion is to build monasteries in at least one city, so I have missionaries available throughout the game.

Yes, I have often sent out missionaries after Scientific Method. I believe what becomes obsolete after Scientific Method is the added science (beakers) that monasteries give. I can't confirm this post-patch, but I would be very surprised if this changed.

Just wondering, did you test that post-patch?
I have. Still true.

God (sic), that really changes my mind about cultural strategering. Biology is available after all!

Free religion is the best way to keep out of wars. Won't help you forever, but neither will having the same religion as someone else.

and wouldn't it make more sense to prioritize pacifism if you're not philosophical? That's when the effect is bigger relatively. Though I suppose the point is that if you go for lots of GP you often pick philosophical already...

I have. Still true.

That's right and you even get to complete any monastries you are already building. Yesterday I completed my first culture win and wanted to build 3 caths in each of the culture cities and was building an Islamic monastry in my only town with that religion, when I used a great scientist to discover Scientific Method, forgetting I was still building the monastry. To my surprise the monastry completed and I was able to use it to create missionaries to get the 9 needed Islamic temples.

Theocracy for the +2 XP on each unit. Vassalage + theocracy + heroic epic + barracks + west point + pentagon = 18 XP if I'm not mistaken! for a unit that hasn't even fought yet. That's 4 promotions. 5 if you're aggressive (Start with combat I).

I believe it is vassalage (+2xp) theocracy (+2xp) heroic epic (+100% military production speed) barracks (+4xp) west point (+4xp) pentagon (+2xp) = 14xp, totaling three promotions, and 3 xp away from that 4th promo, in addition to Combat I if you are an Aggressive civ.

Free religion - all that free science and hapiness? Who'd say no. You could even say it's a free monastery in every city. Sure you lose line of sight if you've founded some religions, but hey, by this time in the game, do you really need it that much?

dont you lose the money that you can get from having a holy city? I have never tried free religion for that reason.

i could have swore you can build new monastaries even after they are scientifically obsolete.

Both the XP boost calculations from Vass/Theo/HE/Rax/WP/Pent are wrong (having now looked everything up in the reference).

Vass = +2 XP; Theo = +2 XP; HE = +100% production, but NO XP; Rax = +4 XP; WP = +4 XP; Pentagon = +2 XP

So that's 2+2+4+4+2 = 14, 3 promotions, + Combat I if aggressive. Still not bad.

in my last game (huge epic 18civs that i actualy FINISHED!) i was spreading 4 religeons (3 mine, 1 conquered i think) and when i got scientific method that realy sucked. almost reloaded back to NOT get it. didnt realize it made missionary building so much harder (by making monastary building not available) before i got it.

Org religeon is usefull for sure, but its not the end all be all the OP makes it out to be.
Theo is better for war (or prewar army building)
Passifism is better for peacefull great person gathering
free religeon is better for happiness in late game, if you're like me and actualy LIKE other civ's to spread their religeons to your civ. i dont care if they have line of sight or a few gold coins, but that culture, happines and science is worth it for me. plus it makes it more worthwhile to conquer their holy city.

What's OP? Also, if I upgrade cavalry with promos that choppers can't earn to choppers, do they keep those promos? And does anyone see anything foolish (unforseen consequences) about giving choppers and armor +100% against melee units? I had a helicopter attacked and killed by pikemen, that was wierd.

OP stands for "original poster," which in the case of this thread is me. After reading all your replies, I played a game as Gandhi at Settler, on Tiny map, vs Hatshepsut & Isabella. I founded all 7 rels, built at least one monastery for each, & managed to spread 3 of them to all my cities. Once Pacifism became available, I used it for the rest of the game. Gandhi does not have the Philosophical trait, but this civic helped me as far as Great People went. I was able to generate enough Great Prophets to build all 7 shrines, plus one to found Islam & a few more to boost my cities' production. A few Great Engineers & Great Artists didn't hurt either; I used one of the latter to hasten my 3rd city toward Legendary culture & thus gain my Culture vic. (Culture is my most common win; I also won Space Race once as Caesar.)

Based on the previous posts & on the game I just finished, I now conclude that Theo is useful for warmongers, Pac for peaceful players. Just get those monasteries built before Sci Meth, & you can produce all the missionaries you need!

:eek: I've just discovered that I inadvertently posted this thread under the Strategy Articles sub-forum of the Strategy forum! When I clicked on the link "Strategy" in the left column on the CivFanatics homepage, I thought it led me to the Strategy forum, but now I see that it leads to the Articles sub-forum. Guess I'll just have to pay a li'l more att'n from now on to what forum I'm posting under!

Monastaries are worth having. The provide culture and are an early library. After they become obsolete, you can still build missionaries. As long as you have built some monastaries, half of the benefit of Organized Religion is negated.

The only time I use Organized Religion is when I need something built-in all of my cities; to pump out alot of military units, the space race, etc. Even then, I use it and then move out as soon as I can. The other civics just offer too much.

Theocracy - Unit Experience
Pacifism - Great People
Free Religion - Get the zealots off your back (don't use much)

Free Religion - Get the zealots off your back (don't use much)

Do you mean that FR negates the hostility of rulers with different, wrong religions? If so, that's good news.

Like I've said, to get any realism out of adding religion this game should include more complicated interaction and, let's face it it's driven most of history, hostility between certain religions, and friendship between others. I'm not saying that Islam, Judaism and Christianity should be automatically hostile to eachother because they have been in the real world, but wars between say Tao and Jewish rulers or attempts by Christian nations to remove Confucionism from their cities (there should be a persecution mode available to facist and theocratic and similiarly unpleasant civics) should affect how these religions coexist. I completely understand why the Firaxis crowd didn't want to wade into that hornets nest though. I wonder if an expansion or future game will have schisms within religions, i.e. Catholic/Protestant Shia/Sunni?

plus 2xp from barracks

4xp from barracks, not 2. And if you build drydocks, you get a similar boost for ships.

That's 8xp (with Theocracy and Vassalage), just 2 shy of getting the third promotion (and if you get Pentagon world wonder, there's your +2xp right there).

Then you can go after getting the Heroic Epic (need a 10xp unit) and West Point (need a 17xp unit) in a productive port city with barracks and drydock, and you'll produce military units twice as fast (Heroic Epic) and with 14xp (drydock/barracks, Vassalage, Theocracy, Pentagon somewhere in your empire, and West Point in this city).

Yummy. :)

Do you mean that FR negates the hostility of rulers with different, wrong religions? If so, that's good news.
I don't use FR much. I've been in a position a couple of times in cultural victoires (I'm way behind in tech and just waiting to launch my Great Artists), where I've chosen my religion to befriend an ally. I don't want to torque him off, but I've got a neighbor demanding that I convert. The only out in this rock vs. hard place has been to change to FR. You don't seem to get the benefits of religion, but those of different faiths are happier.

All experience bonuses stick through upgrades, even if they aren't available for the new unit. Some forethought about when your units might face combat can make a big difference (ie hold off on that bonus vs melee upgrade unless you actually need it).

dont you lose the money that you can get from having a holy city? I have never tried free religion for that reason.

I don't think. I remained atheist in one game but my holy temple, not just a holy city, was still sucking in all these gold.

I don't think. I remained atheist in one game but my holy temple, not just a holy city, was still sucking in all these gold.

I believe that you continue to acquire gold through your holy city even after you switch to free religion. This has been my experience in the late game, post patch.

I believe that you continue to acquire gold through your holy city even after you switch to free religion. This has been my experience in the late game, post patch.

You gain money from all shrines no matter what your religion or civics are. (i.e. If I am Confucian, but I have the Taoist shrine I make money from all cities with taoism.)

Every civic has a purpose. Well, except Environmentalism and Nationalism. Haven't found uses for those yet. And slavery is a little iffy, too.

Slavery saved me - at least for the early going - when I had a Flood Plain start surrounded by little more then desert and 2 or 3 grassland. This is incredibly specific, but my population was running rampant once farmed and the only way I could build due to the VERY slow production (30 turn barracks, for example) was :whipped: my buildings into existence. Between the health & unhappiness, I was forced into this.

I also tend to use it if I have fast growing cities with little to no luxuries to - ahem - make use of the unhappy people :mischief: . That being said, in most cases I won't switch for JUST this civic (unless Spiritual, of course) but once I can do Hereditary Rule, Organized Religion & Slavery or another multi-combo change.

Nationhood - Another example - Warmongering and overexpanded, had an 'ally' declare on me on my weak flank. A quick switch and some 'conscripting' and my 'back end' was protected within 2 turns. Made Peace at the vanguard and redirected my military to the new threat.

I've also used it 'Sirian-style' for my once-isolated-civilization-turned-tasty-target and get 2 defenders quickly in each border town. It was nice to have so I could get back on track with my current agenda.

**Sorry to the OP for threadjack**

Theocracy is great for multi-player war & negating religious spying as I don't find the AI uses the religious spying to the fullest. Pacifism is perfect if you have GOOD (re: not heavy) defense set-up and are looking to seriously up the Great People points..

I have some thoughts about religious civics

Org Rel is the civics for those that like to spread religion fast (Mainly they have a holy shire or they want to convert somebody else to improve relations) They are best when u have state religion in every city. It high cost is the problem (but usually shire income would compansate

Theocracy is for wartime. I found it very useful when u want more promotion (even u have no barrack). But the drawback is that your religion will spread very slow (no spread for non state religiion....some folks have multiple holy shire and that will hurt the income growth)

Pacificm is for pacifist (quite litterally). They prefer better growth internally instead of expansionism. Double gp point IS a very good advantage (If u have Philo trait+Caste+Partheon+all those that add gp, u have so much gp that u dont know wht to do we them!!) But if they are agasint war, it proves to be fatal.

Finally, Free religion elimilate the effect of state relgion. This is good for civ that have no dominant religion. it also improves the relationship between civ that have different state religion (But also worsen those that originally share ths same faith.) This civics is unfavourable for those that have a holy city as it obsolate the power to see the city with the same faith.

To conclude, those who are week in religion should change to Free rel, while peacemaker have Pac and warmongoner choose Theocracy while soem spread their religion fast by Org Rel. Each civics have its purpose and objective when using it

For me, i seldom choose free rel and theo because i usually found religion(s) and wage many holy wars, where and constantly change between the two civics. Being a Spiritual leader has more advantage in civ 4 than civ 3

Free religion also boosts science production 10% and provides happiness from every religion present in a city. Sometime between Liberalism and Sci Method I spread all religions present to every city, and then switch to FR to eliminate unhappiness penalties (switching back to Theocracy during mass unit production). This is great when you're doing a lot of warmongering: +5-6 happiness in every single city counteracts war weariness superbly.

Slavery saved me - at least for the early going - when I had a Flood Plain start surrounded by little more then desert and 2 or 3 grassland.

...

Nationhood - Another example - Warmongering and overexpanded, had an 'ally' declare on me on my weak flank.

I agree that these are the best uses for these civics. Unfortunately, I find that these civics tend not to foster victory, but prevent defeat. That's a problem compared to theocracy or representation or free speech, which are more active civics.

I just don't think that 'reactive' or 'defensive' civics are fully balanced, because you're generally already out of the running if you have to use them. Not necessarily that they should be thrown out the window, but a small increase in value couldn't hurt.

But we've digressed.

Slavery is a good early civic, in my opinion (this knowledge gained from Sulla's walkthrough :) ). It costs the same as barbarism (the default), but it provides the option of pop-rushing in case of emergency.

I *never, ever* build monasteries;

Three words: One City Challenge. Monsteries (from imported religions or founded religions) are an inexpensive way to increase a city's science output prior to the discovery of Scientific Method. In a recent OCC game, I had the good fortune of having five religions in my city and the five monasteries significantly boosted my research rate and provided a useful culture boost. I expended a total of 15 turns building all five and I believe those were turns well spent.

In my OCC game, I had zero interest in spreading the religions I founded since I was already Buddist, courtesy of the Egyptians, so the free missionaries simply sat in my city for the remainder of the game.

In my OCC game, I had zero interest in spreading the religions I founded since I was already Buddist, courtesy of the Egyptians, so the free missionaries simply sat in my city for the remainder of the game.

I hope you won despite the maintanance you were paying on those missionaries.

Environmentalism has a purpose, that of boosting your population in the end, when your city growth is usually blocked by health, not happiness. It is just so much weaker than state property in most cases that noone thinks of using it, except maybe for milking purposes.

Environmentalism really shines in a OCC, where you're usually strapped for health resources. Also, since you only have one city, the upkeep is negligible.

I hope you won despite the maintanance you were paying on those missionaries.

Right. Don't they cost 3gpt, like Great People?

Right. Don't they cost 3gpt, like Great People?

2 or 3gpt I think, the fairly pathetic Civilopedia doesn't say and I can't find the guidebook. Great People require upkeep? That's a kick in the pants, no more waiting for three to trigger a golden age!

By the way, Free Religion is a great civic, it greatly reduces hostility from other civs.