Poser002

Is it still going to be the basic setup?

Probably .... although I will leave it to my colleagues to decide. ;)

The philosophy behind the LITTLE mod is to try to leave the basic gameplay of Vanilla Civ 4 as unchanged as possible while substantially prolonging the number of turns in the epic version of the game. In order to compensate for this massive increase in length, we will ADD a large number of new technologies and buildings (especially) in order to promote the same brisk gameplay afforded by the default epic gamespeed.

Sure .... the end result will be our vision for a massively expanded version of Civ 4. :) However, hopefully, most of the basic gameplay features will be left untouched or (where necessary) balanced to reflect the seven (or so) fold increase in the length of the game. :cool:

Maxpublic

Also, in reference to the comment that a defense of +225% makes cities unbreakable: that just ain't so. In my own mod walls and castles both gave +50% to defense; all infantry got a basic +25% when defending in cities, integral to their unit; culture, of course, can give up to +100%; and I removed all artillery units from the game. This did nothing to stop me from taking cities at will. What it did do is make the process much more costly; it slowed me down, sure, but that's kinda the point. Otherwise I would've conquered the entire world before I left the Classical Era. Instead of just diving into war I spent a good deal of time and energy building up a very large army - well, actually two: one to attack, and one to defend against the inevitable counterattacks.

Now this is a most interesting observation!! :)

This is exactly the point I was trying to (somewhat clumsily) raise last night (my time). :blush: I just feel that the process of attempting to capture an enemy city should represent a major (and inevitably extremely costly) exercise (unless, of course, ones forces are overwhelmingly superior) and that success should most frequently be associated with a fair number of fatalities. :eek:

After all, this would seem to be somewhat more realistic and potentially afford a better balance for a severely prolonged version of the game. (Maybe somehow (through this concept), there should be a corresponding seven-fold increase in the length of time that it takes to capture a major enemy city?). :king:

However, I am more than willing to bow to other people's opinions in this fairly complex (but most important) matter .... as I would hate to see people complain that the military model was now unsustainable. :) :eek:

Maxpublic

I want to point out here that even if you make each era have the same number of turns, the player *will not* spend as much time in each era. As the eras progress there's more to do - you have more cities, more units, more tech, more buildings, more choices. So Ancient turns fly by pretty quickly, but by the time you get to the Industrial Era you might be spending up to several minutes of time on each turn - or more, if you're in a war. It's not only the number of turns that determine how long each era lasts, but the time you spend on those turns.

Now this is an EXTREMELY RELEVANT observation!! :goodjob:

All Civ games do (almost invariably) tend to follow an exponential growth curve with respect to the amount of turn-related activity required as the game progresses. (I will leave it to the mathematicians to further discuss the exact nature of this growth curve :mischief: ).

However, as somewhat of a builder myself, this might at least partially explain why the Modern era seems (from my own personal perspective) to last disproportionally longer than the other preceeding eras. More cities generally require more management, etc :) .... not that I am complaining. :D

So (who knows) maybe the prolonged Ancient era might not seem all that long under these circumstances. :confused:

The game at the start seems to go slower because u have less citys and ur waitting to get that next tech. But it goes alot faster because really u dont do much. I would say for the first 200 turns in the game are mostly just click the turn button. I would say for the first 200 turns right now in game u really play about 15 mins lol. build ur first city build maybe 2 settlers in this time 2 workers and the rest is buildings if u want to get a wonder first. Then it is wait and go lol. After that the game gets going and u start to build up troops and start to take over area dn move ur citys out and take up as much land as u can befor the ai starts to suck it up lol.

Poser002

The game at the start seems to go slower because u have less citys and ur waitting to get that next tech. But it goes alot faster because really u dont do much. I would say for the first 200 turns in the game are mostly just click the turn button. I would say for the first 200 turns right now in game u really play about 15 mins lol.

Yes .... upon deeper reflection, this is indeed a highly accurate observation regarding the start of ANY Civ game. By definition, one has to start out extremely slowly from NOTHING before painstakingly developing ones first city. :)

This imho is actually fairly profound stuff if one takes the time to consider the full historical implications of what is really happening during these somewhat prolonged opening moves .... simply put, it is "The Birth of your Nation". :D In many respects, it is these initial seemingly wasted (but really crucial) moves that should somehow be able to exercise a far more profound multiplier effect upon the subsequent development of ones Nation (Civilization). :king:

Therefore, no matter how many turns (within reason) one has in the game or in what year one decides to start the game, the beginning phases will always be (by necessity) somewhat slow in nature. In many respects, therefore, this type of slow progress would seem appropriate for (say) 8000 BC. :)

However, the BIG QUESTION seems to be whether we can fully justify (from the gameplay perspective) so many turns in the Ancient era from (say) 8000 BC onwards. This topic is currently being fairly vigorously debated in this thread. :goodjob: I must admit that (as somewhat of a builder) I tend to have a rather high boredom threashold and don't mind a slow but steady build up during this (admittedly) fairly long period of the game (which does reflect an equally long period of human history where our ancestors possibly spent most of the time battling Barbarians). ;)

The ONE HUNDRED TURN DEMO also confirms your observation .... as I have found it virtually impossible to build anything particularly worthy (like the basis for a mighty Dravidian Empire) during this time. :eek: Imho, this is very appropriate for the game but highly frustrating for the demo. :sad:

Right now in the game i like from about 1000bc to 1000ad. I spend most the time building up trying to get all teh wonders in one city, that is never easy lol but i get about 6 or so in that time lol. or i lose out by 2 turns on some lol. I like to take over other empires but to me that is not the fun part. I like to micro mange in games. I love the lil details. IT is what makes me love ceaser and those games is all the lil details. Also the empire trading. I wish civ had more of a major trade market. Such as in ceaser u have the huge chat of what can be sold and imported and traded. To me civ would be so much fun if u needed so many units of stay marble,stone,copper,iron steel so on to make buildings. This would really be good thing for the wonders. If u think about it the wonders needed so much stone and the rome buildings needed marble and stone to build and the great wall of china do u need to ask? lol. Maybe civ 5 will bring this part of micro management. Would also be a great way to make money and bring the game in to the real world on the market of world trade.

Poser002

Right now in the game i like from about 1000bc to 1000ad. I spend most the time building up

Yes .... that would seem to represent the best time for ones major expansion in Vanilla Civ 4. Imho, it would be great to be able to really prolong (at least turn-wise) this period of building and expansion in this mod. :king:


I like to micro mange in games. I love the lil details.

The same here .... I will certainly not automate those idiotic workers!! :p Indeed, I think that most of the people involved in actively discussing and promoting this mod (such as FexFX and Maxpublic) seem to share this philosophy. :D After all, as you so correctly state, it is the small details that succeed in adding to the wondrous complexity and scope of this game (and the classic CB games). :goodjob:


needed so many units of stay marble,stone,copper,iron steel so on to make buildings

Maybe THIS might somehow be incorporated into our mod .... especially as a way of adding yet a further challenge (a greater level of exploration and/or diplomacy) in the somewhat underwhelming (to some) Ancient era. :cool:


Maybe civ 5 will bring this part of micro management.

Maybe .... but I wouldn't bet on it. It would seem (for better or for worse) that micromanagement is seemingly being eliminated from most games.

I'm not exactly sure what you folks are shooting for here. Are you just trying to strectch out the game, but leave the ratio of time spent in each era the same? In that case changing GameSpeedInfo will do this, for the most part - depending on what changes you make to city growth, specialists, and buildings, of course.

Or are you trying to make each era relatively equal in length? That can be done, but not with GameSpeedInfo. I know, because this is what I was working for; the same number of turns in each era. In this case you leave GameSpeedInfo alone and modify the point costs of the techs directly, in rough accordance with the ratios I posted (much) earlier in this thread. The actual years per turn is irrelevent - you can adjust them to anything you like, down to months in the Modern Era if that's what you want.

I want to point out here that even if you make each era have the same number of turns, the player *will not* spend as much time in each era. As the eras progress there's more to do - you have more cities, more units, more tech, more buildings, more choices. So Ancient turns fly by pretty quickly, but by the time you get to the Industrial Era you might be spending up to several minutes of time on each turn - or more, if you're in a war. It's not only the number of turns that determine how long each era lasts, but the time you spend on those turns.

Also, in reference to the comment that a defense of +225% makes cities unbreakable: that just ain't so. In my own mod walls and castles both gave +50% to defense; all infantry got a basic +25% when defending in cities, integral to their unit; culture, of course, can give up to +100%; and I removed all artillery units from the game. This did nothing to stop me from taking cities at will. What it did do is make the process much more costly; it slowed me down, sure, but that's kinda the point. Otherwise I would've conquered the entire world before I left the Classical Era. Instead of just diving into war I spent a good deal of time and energy building up a very large army - well, actually two: one to attack, and one to defend against the inevitable counterattacks. When every infantry unit has 4 mps, all the cav has 6, and everyone can use everyone else's roads you really, really have to lock your borders down tight if you don't want enemy raiding forces blowing all of your towns and other improvements to smithereens.

Max

Actually the 225% thing does NOTHING if you have a decent stack of catapults...The discussion was over whether to increase defence or change bombard.

I voted to change bombard becuase if you remove bombard from the equation defenses are already adequate. It should never be possible to be well enough defended to utterly thwart all attacks. It should just be possible to make them work for it.

we are trying ot stretch it AND give a decent number of turns in each era. I'd like a sense of balance. But you are correct each era will feel longer than the last because o fhte increasing number of options each turn.

So, Son Of Moose,
Do we have any idea who is going to be doing what for this mod?
Who will be doing the actual work?
What skills are you brining to the table?
Can you do 3d? How about 2d? Are you any good with Python or XML?

Myself I am good with 2d and 3d and I havepicked up XML easily. Python does not look all that hard to learn but right now my level of knowledge is somewhat limited.

FexFX

Do we have any idea who is going to be doing what for this mod?
Who will be doing the actual work?

Yes .... this is the KEY question and one that I have been dreading for a while. :(

Unfortunately (as I might well have mentioned in my initial post), I am neither a graphics artist nor a programmer :blush: but rather a committed fan with a particular vision for Civ 4. Indeed, this is why I titled this thread a "Possible collaborative project". Thankfully, this vision does appear to be shared by several people who have visited and contributed to this thread. :goodjob:

Your questions are indeed most pertinent as we will clearly need several volunteers (collaborators) with expertise in programming and especially graphics (you seem to be pretty good at both :) ) .... as it will be essential for all the newly proposed buildings in the LITTLE mod to be totally compatible with those appearing in Vanilla Civ 4. :king: (No copying of RoN or AoE buildings as happened in the DYP/RAR mod :( ).

So where does this leave us?

I would imagine that it is essential for us to find (at least) a couple of people with programming and graphics skills who will be prepared to lend us a hand. Certainly StanKarp (who is a programmer) managed to establish a highly competant team in order to create the AoM mod for CTP2. Hopefully we can yet manage to do the same .... but how can we best do this?

My first appeal:

Do any of our contributors have the necessary skills to advance this mod?

This might represent a suitable beginning. Do you have any definite ideas in this regard? :)

I was afraid of this also...
So far, although we have had many offered ideas, we have had no offers of help on the design and programming side of things.
Heh...
So far then this is my mod which happens to be taking suggestions from others.
:P
I can do the whole mod by myself if need be, but it'll end up with my name all over it.
:P
The working title I was using before this conversation began was FexFX - MORE.
Just MORE.
More turns, More techs, More buildings...etc

Looks like I may be building MORE by myself...:cry:
Ah well that's how I originally figured it would go, I just thought we'd attract some help.

(which I would still welcome)


Oh, and something which was pointed out to me recently about my FexFX - Bigger & Longer mod...Great People run out of names WAY before 1000 turns...You end up seeing Enrico Ferme being born in 750ad...:crazyeye:

So to add to our list we need about 6 or 7 times as many great people to prevent hitting generics before the year 1000BC!
:P
Its an easy task to implement, but an oversight until today!

FexFX

So far, although we have had many offered ideas, we have had no offers of help on the design and programming side of things.

Yes .... although I am most grateful for all the well-intentioned and often extremely useful suggestions and ideas, I think that we now desperately need to try to make some definitive progress with this mod. :sad:

As they say (somewhat unkindly) .... talk is cheap!!! :sad:

We really do need to establish a team .... otherwise (as you say) we might as well revert to your curently existing mod. :cry:


I can do the whole mod by myself if need be, but it'll end up with my name all over it.

From a strictly personal perspective that would be fine and proper (dulce et decorum est) :D .... as my own personal Civ 4-related dream is to be able to play a really expanded version of Vanilla Civ 4. You definitely seem to be going in the right direction in this regard. :cool:


More turns, More techs, More buildings...etc

Cool .... especially the buildings!! :cool:


Great People run out of names WAY before 1000 turns...You end up seeing Enrico Ferme being born in 750ad...

I actually saw that one!!! :)

Again, from a personal perspective, I don't really mind them being numerically ordered .... although a suitably long list of names would be better. :) However, in the greater scheme of things, I guess that this is a comparatively small (but still fairly noteworthy) problem. ;)

To be continued ....

FexFX:

So where do we go from here?

For what it is worth, I would like to propose the following:


Keep this thread going for (at least) the next few days to see whether we can obtain the services of some volunteers (i.e. WE ARE NOW ACTIVELY RECRUITING :D )
Possibly consolidate (y)our progress by seeing exactly what you (we) do have wrt suggestions. This would seem to make good sense before you (we) get drowned in trivia. :(
If we obtain no more volunteers, consider the possibility of merging this thread with your mod thread. Lets see which thread is dominant .... I certainly have no great desire to maintain this thread as an ego boost (or whatever) :eek: .... it can be allowed to quietly die once it has outlived its purpose. :sad:


Hopefully the above suggestions were not too melodramatic .... I just think that we now need to be PRACTICAL in our approach to a potentially MASSIVE project. :sad:

I offered my coding assisstance. Just tell me what is needed and I will take care of it.

Shqype

Yes .... I hoped that you were still available!!! :goodjob:

Now we have a bona fide programmer (you) and a graphics man (FexFX) at our disposal. :king:

I would imagine that your skills will be needed pretty soon now .... especially when we have managed to consolidate all the ideas appearing in this long thread. :D :eek:

I think our major outstanding need is possibly for more graphics artists.


FexFX

Would you feel happy trying to mod existing Vanilla Civ 4 structures in order to create ALL the newly proposed buildings/structures?

Or would you like a few helpers? (From my admittedly extremely limited knowledge of graphics, I know that they are EXTREMELY labour intensive). :eek:

It should never be possible to be well enough defended to utterly thwart all attacks. It should just be possible to make them work for it.

That was actually my point. Remember, I removed all artillery - including catapults. AND increased defense bonuses AND gave infantry a base +25% defense in cities. The enemy defenses were by no means unbreakable - I broke them, repeatedly. It just required more planning and more units, and ended up costing more. It was also a slower process since I couldn't just up and wipe out a neighbor in a single war.

If I hadn't have done this I'd've won the game long before reaching the Industrial Era, which would've defeated the point of making a long mod in the first place. As is it required several carefully-planned wars to eliminate each player.

Civ is already an easy game to beat. Long games favor a player of the AI. Improving defenses worked more in the AI's favor than in mine since, as a human, I was better able to defend my territory anyway. Removing the artillery really helped the AI, as players are far, far better at using it effectively than the AI will ever be.

Although the AI proved particularly adept at making breakthroughs (or landings) in my territory and burning improvements to the ground. A lesson I learned early and worked continually to thwart (although this won't be a problem in your game unless you increase movement allowances and allow everyone to use enemy roads by default, like I did).

Max

I took note of this err, little thread here and thought I'd drop by. My mod aims to do a lot of what some of the people here are asking for. there isn't quite any _epic_ game speed just yet (the current epic can fairly long, given the tech changes), but I have so far included 20 new buildings (2 of which I didn't count due to their irrelevance) and modified several of the exsting entries to be a bit more multi-purpose. Cities have been made to be bigger with more food, which in turn means they're growing throughout the entire game. I've also added 2 new technologies with ideas for more written down.

The mod also includes some different gameplay mechanics, including Inquisitors and travelling performers and a whole new cultural model. I notice that FexFX is planning something very similar and I suggest we put our heads together on this one.

I think I've already proven myself a capable programmer and XML editor, and certainly full of ideas, though the quality of those may be questionable. :) I encourage people interested in this thread to look into my mod and what it has to offer. Also, feel free to suggest ideas for new buildings, new technologies, or even new gameplay mechanics.

Maxpublic

It just required more planning and more units, and ended up costing more. It was also a slower process since I couldn't just up and wipe out a neighbor in a single war.

Without unnecessarily prolonging this interesting debate (or to be seen taking sides), I think that this is the desired rationale for conducting warfare in an ultra-epic version of Civ 4. :)

However, we still need to decide how best to achieve this end goal. :)

However, we still need to decide how best to achieve this end goal. :)

Whatever you do, don't give the player extra bells and whistles. The AI can't even handle the rock-paper-scissors approach of the vanilla game; stacking anything else on top of that only skews the advantage in the direction of the player, which'll make the game even easier than it already is.

What I'm saying is this: anything beyond basic attack/defend is also pretty much outside the capabilities of the AI. So that means any 'cool' thing you add is going to be used by the player 95% of the time, and by the AI 5% of the time (probably by accident). Long games already favor the player, so the last thing you want is to hand a human an even bigger advantage.

Max

Mylon

We are truly honoured by your visit to our humble thread!!! :D

I have been following your mod!!! :D

I notice that FexFX is planning something very similar and I suggest we put our heads together on this one.

To be absolutely honest, I have long thought that it would be optimal if all modders interested in creating an ultra-epic mod featuring additional material (such as new techs, buildings, units, etc.) were to effectively combine (pool) their talents into the creation of a single truly ambitious project. :goodjob:

How can we best achieve this goal:

Should we try to somehow combine some of the ideas proposed here with those currently existing in your mod and/or FexFx's equally popular mod?

Should we (within reason) try to build up a new all-encompassing mod featuring the proposed number of turns suggested for the LITTLE mod as well as the "best" (most applicable to a truly epic game) ideas from the Mylon mod and the FexFX expanded mod?

I don't wish to re-invent the wheel (as it is a particularly wasteful exercise) but there might need to be some type of re-arrangement of focus in order to find clear common ground.

What do our dedicated supporters feel?

Maxpublic

Whatever you do, don't give the player extra bells and whistles.

Alas I am not too sure that your wish will be granted .... certainly FexFX and Mylon (as well as me) strongly feel that there will be a need for new buildings and techs in order to keep the ultra-epic game entertaining. :(

However, suprisingly enough, I am against too many other changes involving the basic gameplay .... that are not proved essential in order to accomodate the massively increased game length. :D

Alas I am not too sure that your wish will be granted .... certainly FexFX and Mylon (as well as me) strongly feel that there will be a need for new buildings and techs in order to keep the ultra-epic game entertaining.

More explicitly, I meant extra bells and whistles in combat. The AI isn't capable of employing them effectively. Any additions you make to combat apart from the automatic ones (e.g., new buildings give more experience to all units) will only favor the player.

Max

Maxpublic

I meant extra bells and whistles in combat

Okay .... then you might well possibly get your wish. :D

(Unfortunately I am not a great expert in the military aspects of this game .... therefore I will most certainly leave these decisions to others who know a lot more about these things. :eek: ).

More explicitly, I meant extra bells and whistles in combat. The AI isn't capable of employing them effectively. Any additions you make to combat apart from the automatic ones (e.g., new buildings give more experience to all units) will only favor the player.

Max

I understand what he means.
The changes I plan to make to combat are all relatively minor and will try to foil the idea of waffle-stomping the computer.
:)
I think the key is making defenses that are less vulnerable to artillery without nerfing artillery completely...
and then from there perhaps an increase in defense bonuses.

The basic mechanices will remain the same.

I took note of this err, little thread here and thought I'd drop by. My mod aims to do a lot of what some of the people here are asking for. there isn't quite any _epic_ game speed just yet (the current epic can fairly long, given the tech changes), but I have so far included 20 new buildings (2 of which I didn't count due to their irrelevance) and modified several of the exsting entries to be a bit more multi-purpose. Cities have been made to be bigger with more food, which in turn means they're growing throughout the entire game. I've also added 2 new technologies with ideas for more written down.

The mod also includes some different gameplay mechanics, including Inquisitors and travelling performers and a whole new cultural model. I notice that FexFX is planning something very similar and I suggest we put our heads together on this one.

I think I've already proven myself a capable programmer and XML editor, and certainly full of ideas, though the quality of those may be questionable. :) I encourage people interested in this thread to look into my mod and what it has to offer. Also, feel free to suggest ideas for new buildings, new technologies, or even new gameplay mechanics.

Your work has been most impressive!

I am hoping to extend the existing concepts and rebalance a few things while maintaining the core play of Civ IV.

The only "new" concept I have seen out there that I definitely think should be included is the idea of a Military Great Person...which really just gives more variety without adding a new concept.

The inquisitor and Traveling Performer concepts are very intriguing, but as to a new cultureal model...I am not sure if it belongs in this mod or not. as I said I am not looking to change the core gameplay just expand it. More, More, More. :D

One idea I have toyed with and have not quite rejected yet is larger city radius after some large population number is reached.

I do not know how to implement this yet, and it may well be a function of Culture and not Population, but I think one raduis larger would be an interesting development in the late game. I am still pondering whether or not this belongs. I know larger population sizes are inevitable with this scope and scale however.

I offered my coding assisstance. Just tell me what is needed and I will take care of it.

Well what would be truely great would be a way to switch calendars after a certain year. To go from Years to Seasons or Months...

Because that is really the only way to properly extend the modern era without breaking the 2050 barrier.

Is this possible pre-SDK?

One idea I have toyed with and have not quite rejected yet is larger city radius after some large population number is reached.

If you can figure out how to change the city radius from a 'fat cross' to a square (or perhaps it should be called a megasquare?), this would be a great development. The ability to plot your cities without gaps is something players have been looking for since Civ 1.

Max

At this time I feel ready to begin adding techs to the Ancient era...actual implementation.

the early techs are going to be the most complex as they involve core changes to the early game.
For example before you learn the Fishing Tech, Sea tiles offer no food. Before you learn Carpentry Forests offer no production bonus...

So, these first few techs are going to involve editing a LARGE number of files including the base behavior of tiles and tile bonuses!

If you can figure out how to change the city radius from a 'fat cross' to a square (or perhaps it should be called a megasquare?), this would be a great development. The ability to plot your cities without gaps is something players have been looking for since Civ 1.

Max

It is certainly something to think about.

The thing is I remember how CTP handled it, and things were a tad overbalanced as a result...I'd like to avoid that...

One other thing I just thought of: barbarians. In a long game, if you increase build times to stretch them out barbarians become much more threatening than they are in stock civ. A player can handle this (although they're a real pain), but the AI has problems. In my first run - before I changed the way barbarians are generated - about half the AI civs were overrun by barbarians before we left the Ancient era.

Max

FexFX

Wow .... there has certainly been quite a lot of action during the half an hour that I spent watching "The Simpsons". :cool:


I definitely think should be included is the idea of a Military Great Person...which really just gives more variety without adding a new concept

Agreed!!! :goodjob:


I said I am not looking to change the core gameplay just expand it. More, More, More

Yes .... this is indeed fundamental to our philosophy. :king:


and it may well be a function of Culture and not Population, but I think one raduis larger would be an interesting development in the late game. I am still pondering whether or not this belongs. I know larger population sizes are inevitable with this scope and scale however.

Yes .... I really like this idea if it can be implemented. :) Perhaps this might well be the way to permit the development of bigger cities within the basic gameplay parameters. :)


At this time I feel ready to begin adding techs to the Ancient era...actual implementation.

THANK YOU AND GOOD LUCK!!! :D

Maxpublic

I think that the current idea would be to retain the default structural building times with somewhat prolonged unit development times and yet further expanded technology research times.

Therefore you could well have an extremely valid point. :D

One other thing I just thought of: barbarians. In a long game, if you increase build times to stretch them out barbarians become much more threatening than they are in stock civ. A player can handle this (although they're a real pain), but the AI has problems. In my first run - before I changed the way barbarians are generated - about half the AI civs were overrun by barbarians before we left the Ancient era.

Max

Oddly I have not experienced this in my 1000 Turn game!
I think its because I did NOT modify the Barbarian behavior to match the rest of the mod. Instead I left barbarian generation numbers as they would have been for Epic...which is harsh but not unduly so.

Can someone verify or deny that TechYieldChanges can be added to a terrain type as well as to bonus and improvement types...The Schema makes it look like this will work, but I am at work and cannot verify that this will work.
It is not used this way in the default files, but the schema makes it look possible if I simply add in the desired booleans...etc

If not possible I can think of other ways to work fishing...although not as dramatic, it could simply make ocean stuff visible...before fishing there would be no fish or clams or crabs on the map

Can someone verify or deny that TechYieldChanges can be added to a terrain type as well as to bonus and improvement types...The Schema makes it look like this will work, but I am at work and cannot verify that this will work.

Actually, terrain uses the TerrainInfo portion of the schema file, which doesn't include TechYieldChanges.

Max

Actually, terrain uses the TerrainInfo portion of the schema file, which doesn't include TechYieldChanges.

Max

Yes, I am aware of this, however I am wondering if I can simply add it to the Schema for TerrainInfo...I would also need to add it to TerrainFeatures.

It SHOULD be a simple matter of adding:
<element type="TechYieldChanges"/>
to:
<ElementType name="TerrainInfo" content="eltOnly">
and:
<ElementType name="FeatureInfo" content="eltOnly">

But I dont know if the engine will vomit if I do this.
I believe I then have to add:
<TechYieldChanges/>
to all terrain types and feature types which do not have a techyield change datum, and then the appropriate:
<TechYieldChanges>
<iYeildChange>1</iYeildChange>
<iYeildChange>0</iYeildChange>
<iYeildChange>0</iYeildChange>
</TechYieldChanges>
or whatever to those which do indeed change...

But I am unsure that this will work.

I don't know that I have much to offer in the way of this mod, though I would be willing to try to help with some XML editing, as a subordinate to the leader of that portion. My experience is limited to basically adding units to Rise of Nations and since I can't even figure out how to subscribe to a thread on CivFanatics I might be in over my head.

Finarfin

Thank you so much for your most generous offer!!! :D

I think that the next couple of days will be very important as we will then be able to guage the level of "hands-on" support for our proposed LITTLE mod. Hopefully, we will then be able to start "delegating" various tasks to our volunteers according to their respective areas of expertise. :goodjob:


Btw: I apologise if my comment of yesterday regarding "talk is cheap" seemed a little too brusque. :blush: I suppose that it is always a little tricky to convert words (no matter how interesting and stimulating) into concrete action. :(

Therefore I hope that our "regulars" will not desert this thread. :cry:

I have yet to have a chance to check out the above theory...on Terrain modifications...

But I did learn that a GridY of 0 (on the tech chart) looks bad (half off the top of the screen) so In my tech chart it should be considered that techs range from 1-17 rather than 0-16...which means you will have a vertical scroll bar...but only like the bottom two pixels of the 17th row of techs is actually affected.

These offers of help are great tho!

I will not be home until after 5pm (pst) tonight.
So...
I want someone to test this "modlet" as a proof of concept.

This modlet should make a subtle change to the game.
Ocean Squares and Coastal squares should produce NO food until AFTER you have learned the Fishing Tech. Note: this does not affect fish or crabs or clams, just the ocean squares themselves.

Please load this file and verify.
This will allow me to actually tinker with this for the next 5 hours...rather than wondering.

To test: Load the modlet.
Build a City next to water.
Attempt to work the water.
Note how much of what you get from the water.
Coastal should give 2 Commerce and no food.
Ocean no food and 1 commerce.

If you get an error let me know I have a feeling you may get an error.

Gee wiz...
no help was forthcomming

Well I got home, tested, and it failed to work.
got errors.
found the cause
fixed the errors
and the function is non-functional as I feared, it does nothign in the wrong file...
oh well.
Then I realized I was being a dummy...
you cant work water tiles at all before fishing anyhow so why does changing the yeilds mater?!
So I changed it so that fishing makes Crabs, Clams and Fish visible as well as allows you to work the water.
No fishing boats per my tech chart.

I was trying to reply and download your file to test it for you, but the stupid Civfanatics servers kept giving me database errors. Sorry I couldn't help. Sometimes these servers are soooooooo slooooooow.

That's okay, I found that I was pursuing something that needs the SDK.
Meh!
No biggy!
Since I also realized I was doing something redundant, and discovered that they had already put a single use tag in there to make fishing allow working of water.
I wish they had put two tags in there to separate ocean from coasts to that "fishing" only gave you the ability to work the Coasts, and a later tech could allow the working of oceans...

FexFX

Yes .... the release of the SDK (sometime early next year) should enable us to do "Great Things" with the "LITTLE" mod. :)

Perhaps we could even consider the following:

Change the default city layout (especially in view of all the new buildings that we will be adding to the game)

Change the default scaling to substantially reduce the size of the units relative to the buildings (I know that master modder Sn00py is very interested in doing this).

There is a program out there that allows you to customize the size of the units, buildings, etc. It's called civscale.exe, I think, and was created by the person/people that put together the Blue Marble graphics mod. I've used the scaling tool and it works well. I bumped the cities up to the largest size so that they look bigger on the map.

Unit scales are easy to change right now with a handy utility called "notepad.exe"... well, tedious but not difficult :)

They're all in XML\Art\CIV4ArtDefines_Unit.xml, like this:

<fScale>0.61</fScale>

You'll also probably want to adjust:

<fBattleDistance>0.35</fBattleDistance>

Once you have adjusted those scale values for all of the units the game will automatically enlarge them if you choose to not use multi-unit visuals (or whatever that option is called). You can remove that enlargement in XML\GlobalDefines.xml, look for:

<DefineName>SINGLE_UNIT_GFX_EXTRA_SCALE</DefineName>
<fDefineFloatVal>1.25</fDefineFloatVal>
</Define>

And change as desired :)

FexFX

Yes .... the release of the SDK (sometime early next year) should enable us to do "Great Things" with the "LITTLE" mod. :)

Perhaps we could even consider the following:

Change the default city layout (especially in view of all the new buildings that we will be adding to the game)

Change the default scaling to substantially reduce the size of the units relative to the buildings (I know that master modder Sn00py is very interested in doing this).

The layout thing is not even on my radar at this point, I am planning that at least in first release there will be no "building" models. They are not 100% necessary, just a nifty thing. They will function the same just no image on the map. Eventually this would be a "nice touch", but its far from required.

The scaling thing I am flatly against...this is a pure taste thing and as has been pointed out there are numerous ways for players to do this themselves to their own exacting tastes. I know some out there want things LARGER so that they are more visible in a top down view, and others want things smaller so the units seem more reasonable next to the cities...personally I am happy with things as they are for not and dont give a smeg about scaling. :)

So I am gonna say with the current laundry list of things to do...
Lets leave this one on the cutting room floor until we get to the point where we are doing frivolous things..

At this point I am about ready to buckle down and start putting this bad mutha together!

Just weekends are bad for getting this sort of thing done
:P

Plus I am in the middle of the 1800s in my full length FX-Huge FX-Grand game and I am enjoying the heck out of it!

The pacing feels just about perfect to me!

I think the great people may still be a tiny bit weak, but they are certainly usable...
:)

I will attempt to balance them a bit more in FexFX - MORE. (Since I am the one moving forward at this point, this is the working title for this mod for now...as more people contribute, more names can be discussed, I need more than ideas, I just need more help on the coding, need I say more?)

FexFX - Bigger & Longer have provided a fair ammount of data on the balancing of an extended game. I can see small weak spots in my current model, and I am certain I can improve them in FexFX - MORE.

The layout thing is not even on my radar at this point, I am planning that at least in first release there will be no "building" models. They are not 100% necessary, just a nifty thing. They will function the same just no image on the map.

So, what do you do? Just replace the ArtDefineTag with NONE? Will the game simply not draw the building on the map, or will it leave a blank space in the city?

Max

So, what do you do? Just replace the ArtDefineTag with NONE? Will the game simply not draw the building on the map, or will it leave a blank space in the city?

Max

Actually I tried that and it worked, but the result was an ugly Red sphere placeholder. There is a None tag in the system that "works, but its horrid.
Instead I simply used this:

<BuildingArtInfo>
<Type>ART_DEF_BUILDING_RITUALS</Type>
<bAnimated>0</bAnimated>
<fScale>1.0</fScale>
<fInterfaceScale>0</fInterfaceScale>
<NIF>Art/Structures/Buildings/Obelisk/Obelisk.nif</NIF>
<KFM/>
< Button >Art/Interface/Buttons/Buildings/rituals.dds</ Button >
</BuildingArtInfo>


The result is a building of 0 Scale so it becomes effectively non-existant.
in truth you could use anything as the .nif file, but I chose obelisk because the building I was making was closest to an obelisk in its origin and function. But it would look nothing like an obelisk, so I neded to make it invisible.

The result works perfectly.

And in the BuildingInfo itself is where you place the building relative to the city...I simply left it in the same location as the obelisk. The game has no problem with intersecting models...and since the Ritual is a 0 size...it really is no problem visually.

What is the significance of the <KFM/> tag?

I've added a ton of buildings in my mod and so far haven't noticed any problems. None of the buildings have been added to the CityLSystem file or whatever it is, so they don't show up. Also, they just use preexisting ArtDef tags for the purpose of the building icon.

Finarfin and Seven05

Thank you for your most helpful replies. :) I might try using the Civscale.exe and see what it does. ;)


FexFX

The scaling thing I am flatly against...this is a pure taste thing and as has been pointed out there are numerous ways for players to do this themselves to their own exacting tastes. I know some out there want things LARGER so that they are more visible in a top down view, and others want things smaller so the units seem more reasonable next to the cities...personally I am happy with things as they are for not and dont give a smeg about scaling.

Yes .... this is an extremely valid point. :) This issue is indeed not directly relevant to FexFX's LITTLE mod (?) .... although it just might be interesting to see whether its ultra-epic gameplay would be enhanced (or otherwise) by a different scaling. ;)


The layout thing is not even on my radar at this point, I am planning that at least in first release there will be no "building" models. They are not 100% necessary, just a nifty thing. They will function the same just no image on the map. Eventually this would be a "nice touch", but its far from required.


That can constitute PHASE II of the project .... once we have come close to adding (and successfully integrating) all the new buildings, technologies, resources and improvements that we think could enhance Vanilla Civ 4. :king:


At this point I am about ready to buckle down and start putting this bad mutha together!

THANK YOU AND GOOD LUCK!!


Plus I am in the middle of the 1800s in my full length FX-Huge FX-Grand game and I am enjoying the heck out of it!

Just imagine how much you will eventually enjoy playing this version of the game!! :lol: :goodjob:

FexFX

As the new "father" of this mod, it is indeed right that it is named after you (in recognition of all your hard work). :)

How about the following expanded title (alluded to above):

FexFX's LITTLE mod .... A whole lot more Civilization

The first part is a minor spoof of "Sid Meier's Civilization" while the latter part (which possibly needs some more work ;) ) includes the "more" from "FX More". I was just becoming attached to the somewhat ironic LITTLE title (which was not even of my own choosing). ;)

However, I am completely happy with whatever working title you may wish to choose :D ..... and it will be renamed!! :)

To all our regular contributors and the stalkers

Seeing that FexFX is (hopefully) now going to make some major progress in the execution of this mod :goodjob: and that it will not initially require the time-consuming creation of new models for the buildings, perhaps it might be a good idea to make some more suggestions regarding any new structures that could be included in the game. :king:

ANY IDEAS? :cool:

Today I have been working on the Tech Chart.
I have began to sew in new units and techs, but then stopped to do a re-organization of it according to my proposed grid, and reorganized the techs according to grid location rather than the seemingly random order presented in the original file.

Well that was a whole lotta work!
Got the entire tech chart re-organized so that the techs are in order by collumn and then row as they appear in the chart. I also changed their grid positions to match the new chart. That was a LOT of busywork.

Now, back to adding in new buildings, units and techs and changing existing techs and buildings and such.

THANK YOU!! :goodjob:

To give you an idea of what is involved for adding techs...Here are the files that need to be edited/created for just a tech:
CIV4TechInfos.xml (The Primary Data for the Tech itself)
CIV4GameText_Civilopedia_Techs.xml (Civilopedia Entry)
CIV4GameTextInfos.xml (Quote)
CIV4GameText_Strategy.xml (Strategic Information)
A Button .DDS file for the graphics.

And if you want to do a building its:
CIV4BuildingInfos.xml (The Primary Data for the Building itself)
CIV4GameTextInfos.xml (Text Tags)
CIV4BuildingClassInfos.xml (To Define The Building Class)
CIV4GameText_Civilopedia_Buildings.xml (Civilopedia Entry)
CIV4GameText_Strategy.xml (Strategic Information)
CIV4ArtDefines_Building.xml (To define graphic files associated with this building)
A Button .DDS file for the graphics.
A .NIF File if a 3d Model is desired.

I have yet to do a unit, but I have looked and the list is equally long...
This mean that if someone wants to help things will get a tad complicated...
The only solution I have come up with would be fomr one person to be a central organizer, and for others to contribute by writing a single txt file with the information for the new Building,( tech, unit, whatever) for each of those files in a single file. And then the central organizer would sew that new information into the individual files to add the new creation into the mod...

Oh and did I mention I am doing all this with just notepad?

Duplicate Post

Duplicate Post

Sounds like a good tool for editing XML to me!

:)
I like it just fine tho I think its word wrapping leaves something to be desired.
:P

The gain is that you can actually spend more than a few dozen turns in any one era - "period gaming", I call it. So you can have several wars with neighboring powers using the same units before moving on (and up) to new units. And, as I mentioned before, every accomplishment is a major milestone.

This is just the mod I've been looking for! What's the estimated time of arrival? :D

Deleted by me.

Uncertain on a delivery date, especially with this potentially show stopping bug I have just hit.

I am completely unsure why this is not working properly on my system!!!

I am attaching the current working model for this mod.

It includes a re-organized tech tree with all the techs bumped around to make room fo the new techs, three new techs already included, and three new buildings...
HOWEVER things are not working properly.

For some reason its refusing to recognize the prereqs for techs, and the Lines from tech to tech have gone completely insane just by moving the techs around. They are still horizontally oriented in order, theyrre are simple moved vertically a bit in most cases, and in most cases they have been bumped forward a collumn or two to make room for new techs.

The problem is not so much with the lines as it is with the prereqs!

Fishing should lead to Boat Building which leads to sailing...
I have done the XML correctly for this, I am certain of it.
However, Boat Building and Sailing both list no prereqs now!!

Carpentry should lead to Boat Building and The Wheel...but instead it shows Carpentry leading to Agriculture...

Its all a mess!

I have no idea why this would happen!

HELP!

Is it just not showing the correct prereqs, or is it not recognizing them at all?

For some reason the attachment is not showing up!
Here let me attach it again.
Oh...Its too big...that's a problem...
Hmmm
I may have to split it into multiple parts

Here is the file...just let them both unzip into the same folder.

Is it just not showing the correct prereqs, or is it not recognizing them at all?

It is neither showing them nor recognizing them

You may begin researching Sailing, and Boat building without having fishing even tho the order stated in the file lists Fishing as an OrPrereq for Boat building and Boat building as an OrPrereq for Sailing.

with regards to the current jumble mess in tech screen, i had this problem too on my mod under construction, very similar to yours LOL.

I found this to be due to the way in which techs lead to other techs. For example the fishing tech leads to Mysticism, the game finds it very hard to cleanly draw this arrow onto the tech chart due to the positioning of both those techs on the grid.

I had to spend around 4 hours just rearranging the tech chart to get a clean tech advisor screen.

My mod is basically the same as yours lol and even has some of the same techs you have added. :) although still in early development and im going away for 3 weeks tomorow so will soon fall behind yours :(.

And try playing around with and/or requisites, look at theology for exaples, as this has arrows from 2 of the techs and none from writing, giving you an idea how to do this.

Load up my mod and take a look...
I dont think you grasp the scope of the problem...

My "math" is right...My "programming" is right...My Grid Positions are correct...
But several techs refuse to even recognize their prereqs and several others have the wrong prereqs in spite of the xml!! And those who recognize their techs have arrows that look like they wre drawn by a programmer on crack!

:cry:

umm, start again, add 1 tech in at a time and make sure the arrows are ok as you go. I can see problems with fishing > Mysticism for example, how did you want that arrow drawn as the grid positioning causes the arrow to cross other arrows causing a little jumble.

As for the arrows going off the bottom, no clue, never seen that before. Im a noob at modding myself so thats the only advice i can give, i tried looking at your XML's but after 15 min gave up :) (they look ok)

umm, start again, add 1 tech in at a time and make sure the arrows are ok as you go. I can see problems with fishing > Mysticism for example, how did you want that arrow drawn as the grid positioning causes the arrow to cross other arrows causing a little jumble.

As for the arrows going off the bottom, no clue, never seen that before. Im a noob at modding myself so thats the only advice i can give, i tried looking at your XML's but after 15 min gave up :) (they look ok)

I'm actually less worried about the arrows than by the fact that the game is flat out refusing to recognize that there are ANY pre-reqs for Boat Building or Sailing...

I think I have have figured out their logic...implementation will be a nightmare...

How so? Maybe using the term "logic" for what they have done is premature?

I had some difficulty with the 2 techs I introduced. The only thing I can think of is either the file doesn't like comments in it, the goody tag can interfere with prerequisites, or the x,y coordinates (unlikely) can interfere with coordinates.

How so? Maybe using the term "logic" for what they have done is premature?

ROFL...
After closer analysis, the logic I thought the were using breaks down around Code of laws...At that point my percieved pattern is smashed completely.

Phantom patterns are going to make this harder than necessary!

Alphard


Retain a sense of historical accuracy. I actually think that this is a really important consideration. Indeed, if one reflects upon Man's true history from circa 8000 BC (my suggested starting date for this mod), there was (as you correctly state) very little early contact between the various cultures. This probably only occurred several thousand years later. I agree that it could be an extremely interesting gameplay exercise (as well as historically accurate) to actively encourage the early separate development of the various ingame civilizations.

I suppose that playing THREE or FOUR civilizations on a really big map would facilitate this process!! :goodjob:


In reply to your suggestions:

LIST=1

Possibly some form of increased attrition outside of one's cultural boundary (possibly Barbarians) might prevent too much early exploration beyond one's (fairly) safe confines. Maybe the Scout should only become available considerably later in the game?

LIST=2

This suggestion is beginning to sound rather a lot like my earlier scenario suggestion of "Just me and the Barbarians". :D


One thing that may be possible that sprung to mind for me. In order to restrict contact far beyond cultural borders perhaps there is a way to flag land x units away from 'any' border as 'wilds'. Somewhat like early boats cannot enter the ocean. Have the 3 or 4 spaces from your border be flagged as non enterable until the discovery of a renassiance era tech like navigation. In this way if you did happen to have a neighbor your units could enter their lands as its been somewhat tamed, even if by barbarians. This would limit expansion and exploration until the exploration era truly happened in our history. Considering most units have a movement of 1 and the turns mentioned will be about 6 years that'd still be 18-24 years outside of the cultural effect of your empire, and therefore without help or supplies.

As an aside for this, imo the first cultural expansion should happen at the same culture rate. But the following ones should expand at an increasing rate. iirc the first 3 in vanilla civ 4 are 10, 100, and 500 but in LITTLE maybe 10, 250, 1500 culture?

Okay, I have finally finished re-ordering my tech chart...

And I added quite a few techs in the process!

I am now at 65 new Techs, 35 changed techs, 51 unchanged techs...

Thats a total of 151 techs which is 75.5% more than the original game.

As should be expected, most of these techs are loaded into the front half ofthe game since the front half will almost always be longer in an expanded game.

I can now attempt implementation once more!

Good luck. Your cracking of their "logic" will doubtlessly benefit others as well.

Kelmer

Thank you so much for your idea. :D

Yes .... we might well be able to employ something similar to your suggestion in order to limit too much early exploration. :)

FexFX

CONGRATULATIONS!! :goodjob:

I have recently downloaded Stankarp's excellent Ages of Man mod for CTP 2. :D Perhaps, your time permitting, you should consider downloading this 550+ MB file from the Apolyton CTP 2 forum. This mod features a pretty long Ancient and Medieval period .... although nowhere as long as that proposed by this mod.

I am really impressed with this mod .... maybe you might be able to obtain some more ideas after playing a prolonged scenario? Most certainly Ages of Man is way deeper than Vanilla CIV. :eek:

FexFX

CONGRATULATIONS!! :goodjob:

I have recently downloaded Stankarp's excellent Ages of Man mod for CTP 2. :D Perhaps, your time permitting, you should consider downloading this 550+ MB file from the Apolyton CTP 2 forum. This mod features a pretty long Ancient and Medieval period .... although nowhere as long as that proposed by this mod.

I am really impressed with this mod .... maybe you might be able to obtain some more ideas after playing a prolonged scenario? Most certainly Ages of Man is way deeper than Vanilla CIV. :eek:

I havent owned CTP in ages.
So I wouldn't be able to even look at it!
I am cleaning up the Spread Sheet for presentation right now, and filling in some blanks...when it is all pretty I will upload it here for the perusal of others.

Okay, mere minutes ago I jsut finished the RE-implementation of the techs I had already attempted to implement once before when I ran into this mess.

I am still at work and will be fore several hours more...but I will know tonight if my new methodology works!

I am cautiously optimistic!
:crazyeye:

hmmm looks like I never posted here...but I got things to work!
They are not cosmetically perfect, since some of the lines merge funny, but it is 100% functional.
Beauty is a seoncdary concern and can be dealt with separatly! At any rate I have figured it out! Yay Me!

Bravo! Keep up the good work!

Woah, that's a lot of new technologies. Mind spoiling us with a few details on what you intend to do with the expanded tech tree?

Gimme a bit more time to tinker with it...
I am still ironging out details on the tail end of things...
:)
I should have something for you next week for sure.
:)
Perhaps a full copy of the XLS I am using.

At this point I need to re-order some thigns to fit the schema I described above.

Right now I have several instances of more than one branch above or below and its resulting in a few ugly lines.
but the lines all function and that's much more important!

crap
nevermind, my thoughts on how the schema works are wrong
Priesthood proves me wrong
I am clueless now as to how the lines choose to combine or not combine!

Priesthood has two up and one down, yet it nicely orders the arrows...
Grrr
Why'd they make it so cryptic?

Perhaps this is back to file order...
but that makes no sense either since Writing is listed AFTER codes of Laws.

Hmmm
But Monarchy is also before Writing...and is before code of laws...
Perhaps its bottom to top and not top to bottom that matters...
Grrr...
But then why would any two things every be on the same tier that way?!
I'm losing it here folks!

FexFX , I've read through all of this, and I must say I support it 100%! (Of cource, this doesn't mean much, seeing as I am not a modder) The one thing that I liked the most so far is the addition of new buildings; specifically, those that allow the construction of new units. My suggestion for that is to have on building for each type of unit. However, since the warrior is such a basic unit, perhaps this one unit should not require a building.

I'll try to keep up with this topic and offer my ideas. However, it seems tha at this point ideas are not as important as getting it all done.

There is something I found that could help you with all of the new building you plan on using. Take a look at this threed. actual modifications of buildings possible, with Blender and Niftools! (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=155014)