This is the third Succession Game being played by folks from Realms Beyond Diablo.

I've recently tried my hand at a larger map with fewer civs and discovered the joyous possibilities of an expansionistic building game, with civs widely scattered and endless open terrain to expand into, building dozens of cities, just expand and expand and expand and expand. That's been surprisingly fun, and I the itch to try it in a succession game, Space-Diplo-Cultural disabled, and play all the way to 2050 (or, perhaps, roll over the world militarily if the mood and opportunity strike us). I've never seen past the year 1995, and rarely see past the mid 1800's.

Because this will be such a large, time-intensive game relative to a typical game, I'm protective of my investment in it, so this game will only be open to experienced folks I know won't wreck the game in the middle by dropping out, vanishing, etc. Larger maps go slower, as there's a LOT more to do, and a game with endless building-building-building, always settling more and more land, yet still dealing with military, tech, and other concerns, is not the best situation in which to meet new people. On the other hand, those of us from RBD do not want to become an isolated clique here at CivFanatics, which is why most of us have been jumping into other people's games, as well as playing in the ones we've organized and inviting anybody interested into some of our games. This particular game, though, is just for RBD players.

Game Scenerio:

Difficulty: Monarch
Civ: Americans
Map Size: Large
Landform: Pangaea
Landmass: Large
Climate: Hot, Wet
Mountains: Flat
Barbarians: Sedentary
Opponents: the five Commercial civs, plus Russia and Japan
Victory Conditions: Space, Diplo, Cultural disabled
Scenerio Objective: Win with the highest score in 2050, by being the most expansionistic and having the largest empire over time.


Turn Length: 10 turns (first round subject to number of players).

Current Roster:

Sirian
Charis
Carbon Copy

One or two spots still open, but planning to close the rotation after the first round.

Some thoughts on scenerio objectives: Securing the Pyramids is a top priority, since that will be the most valuable wonder, and denying it to the AI's is just as important as securing it for our own use. The Great Library would allow us to cruise through the middle ages, and once again, denying it to the enemy would be good. One other thing it would allow us to do: run higher luxuries through the early game, to boost our happy-people score. We are going for score, and if we build the GL, we would be sitting around waiting on the AI's to make discoveries for us, at least for a while, while we build up cash and score, and expand. On larger maps, wonders offer more bang for the buck, and the AI's are more likely to build them slower as they may start them in some small city -- the more cities they have, the more likely they will start a wonder in a crappy never-gonna-build-it location -- and yet if those are allowed to sit around and keep building up forever, the wonder cascade may never be broken, and they will steal middle ages wonders that way. High priority ought to go to breaking the cascade, and that will start with building the Pyramids. If our capital starts on a river, we can probably use it for continuous wonder building through the early part of the game.

Which brings me to the idea of tech trading. In a nutshell: the slower the world's progress up the tech tree, the better for us. There is no space race, no race to the UN, no race to much of anything except wonders, and research on larger worlds takes longer. Don't be fooled by the apparent "high" cost the AI's will pay for tech, as the research costs to discover it for themselves are equally inflated. I've selected the five commercial civs as opponents because they should be best equipped to do well with sprawling empires. In short: tech brokering generally runs counter to the particulars of this situation.

An early forbidden palace in a good location may be the second key to victory (the first being getting some or most of the best wonders). So I plan to scout widely from the very start, and look over our land and see what I can plot out for city plans. The shape and quality of our land, and the proximity of neighbors, may affect such a decision. Yet on a map like this, corruption is lower, and the FP doesn't have to be rushed with a leader, it can be built fairly soon in a good location if we dedicate to it. Neighbors will probably be too far away for us to get into any early wars, and by then, we'll have cities capable of building wonders, so I would urge the first leader be used to make an army, make sure he gets a victory, and build the Epic. If we even get into any wars at all in the first five thousand years. :)

No barbarians means safe to boldly expand early, so keep that in mind. Don't want to be so weak as to entice a neighbor into attacking, and units will be needed to keep people happy, but the first cycle of turns can be safely spent mostly on grabbing land.

I've played the opening. Report and game file to follow.


- Sirian

Since the Americans are the one civ that completely defy the logic of the Civ game structure (we formed up as an offshoot of other civs, primarily English, with French, at first, then absorbing immigrants from all over the world) I don't exactly have a theme for playing this one in-character. Being American, I'm not keen on the contortions necessary to adapt our history and culture to the civ model of starting as an ancient tribe -- just don't see that as a good fit. So rather than set a theme, I'm just going to start with a standard report, see what develops in other people's reports, what they are moved to write about their turns, and go from there.

We started on two rivers, one turn away from the shore, but on a grassland with no shield. I contemplated a couple of minutes on this starting position, finally deciding just to plop down right where it started us. I set research to Ceremonial Burial, sent our worker onto a flood plain to irrigate, and increased science rate to 100%. (Science at 100% and research into a cheap utility tech, like Pottery or Ceremonial or Bronze, is always my move of choice on a river start, where there is plenty of extra trade. Conventional starts, I may go for 40-turn discovery of something costlier, and pick up the cheap util techs from huts, trade, or coming back for them later once there is more commerce going in my empire and I can discover in a reasonable number of turns).

I send our scout to the south and build another. When the flood plains are irrigated, I swap to them, slowing building of scout but increasing growth rate. Built a road on the flood plain, sent second scout north, nabbed a goody hut and got Warrior Code, building a third scout now. Worker moves to adjacent grassland with shield and mines. (Just 3 turns! Industrious can get a real jump in this regard). Third scout heads eastward (there is coastline to the west). Start building settler.

Mined another grassland with shield, giving Washington one flood plain with 3 food, 2 trade, and pair of grassland with 2 food, 2 shield, 2 trade. Micromanagement of whether to be on the flood plain or grasslands in full swing, to time out settler production and size 3 city for earliest production of settler unit.

Scout heading south has found origin of South River, where there are silks just two city lengths away. Scout heading north has found lots of hills, some wines near Washington, drier lands beyond. Scout heading east has found... nothing but jungle. We have a VAST jungle here, hopefully a site for coal and rubber. I am also hoping there is iron and horses in the area. On the down side, our chances of finding saltpeter or oil anywhere within a gazillion miles looks slim. And resources are widely scattered on maps like this.

New York founded three squares south of Washington on the diagonal, with 2 overlap. Not the best long term situation, but I simply HAD to get that irrigatable wheat within immediate range for the value it will bring to our growth curve, and still build on the river, and make best use of the land there. 2 overlap won't affect us at all until after Sanitation, so I went with it.

Southern scout finds some goody huts, gets gold and Mysticism. He follows western shore a long way south, then cuts back to scout out the interior south of New York. Northern scout cuts across continent back and forth, uncovering all lands up there. Eastern scout found ocean to the east rather quickly, went north along eastern shore to explore area not covered by north scout, then turned back south and followed eastern shore. Southern scout finds goody hut with conscript warrior, who is sent on to become our great defensive army at New York. Ceremonial burial was discovered, started in on Bronze Working.

New York builds a warrior, which is sent to Washington, which is building second settler. North scout, traveling clockwise along the west coast, discovers Romans to the north, a wee bit closer than I would have liked, but still quite distant. Romans are the most dangerous ancient opponent of all, in my view. Their legionaries function well as attackers and can do more damage in small numbers than even Immortals, because you can't counterattack them effectively. Large stacks of immortals are worse, but even just a couple legions can wreak havoc. I am concerned about this development, but somewhat mollified when north scout turns the corner and returns, discovering that the Romans are isolated on the end of a peninsula and, if we cut our borders across from sea to sea, can keep them isolated from other civs for a long time to come. They are annoyed with us, which is not good, but they want an arm and a leg for their Alphabet tech, and I am NOT giving them Masonry ever. Things were little tense -- so tense looking, over time, that at the end of my turn I did something I rarely ever do: I offered a gift of ten gold to improve relations. They are now "cautious" and likely not too ill disposed to us for the next period or so. A trade or other positive exchange may get them to "polite" even, although under no circumstances should they be traded tech that could let them start on a wonder.

A goody hut in the south was empty. *sigh*

South scout cuts back across continent again after learning of all the lands south of New York. That area has not provided us any encounters with other civs and looks to be our "second breadbasket" where the Forbidden Palace and bulk of our expansion will go. East scout follows coast south, then eastward into the far reaches. At the end of my turn, still no contact with anybody but the Romans. Our scouts have ranged quite far!

Note to Charis: If you give away our world map for free, I'm going to bop you on the head! :crazyeyes

Finished Bronze working, started researching Iron. I'd LIKE to get going toward literacy and the GL, but I figure we'll get Alphabet from the romans sooner or later, or maybe we'll run into one of the other commercial civs -- they all start with Alphabet. Or maybe even another goody hut will be kind to us.

Second settler finished at Washington, sent north to found city on a wine in the hills. I founded ON the wine for strategic reasons. Did not want to be on a flood plain, get the wine online sooner, and have more early food available (there were only two flood plains there, the rest would be quite sparse foodwise if not for the wines). Boston looks like it will be strong strong city some day. Built a warrior, then set it to build a worker, as Washington is now on the pyramids and needs more land improvements, as well as getting the luxuries online soon.

New York gets irrigated wheat and two mined grassland w/ shield, then original worker returns to work more on Washington. Pyramids are underway, but a long long way to go, and we must hurry! New York builds a settler and I send him south to the silks. I looked over the situation and chose another non-optimal long term location with 2 overlap for the short term benefits. I wiped out a jungle with the settler, giving us an extra grassland in the area, in effect, by not settling on the grass, and there is so much jungle in this region, every good square counts.

Boston can be the settler factory for the north, but its first duty of the moment is to help support Washington. New York is on full blown settler factory output, while Philadelphia has just been founded and is doing not much of anything as yet.

Here are the Sirian Land Surveys of our home region, starting with the vital south.

http://sirian.warpcore.org/civ3/succession/builders-south.jpg

Purple dot is the top priority. After much contemplation, that site looks ideal to me for Forbidden Palace construction: a cattle and river, some hills, some grass, some flood plains, and it grabs the ivory. If we seize this with our next settler from New York and get it going quickly, it may make our game in the long run.

Yellow Dot is a high priority. It makes good use of the land in the area, is close to the capital, and would complete our borders from sea to sea, perhaps cutting off the Romans from ever exploring past us -- if we are stingy with our world and territory maps: we have nothing to gain from them as we already know all the vitals of their region. Yellow dot is also on the sea, but would need some irrigation help before too long to come "online".

White Dot is yet more overlap with New York, but beyond it is only more jungle, and this is yet another "sacrifice overlap for growth curve". The city will become a producer MUCH sooner from this position than it would further south in the jungles. This would be a third priority. Blue dot is a good site for linking up to purple, and has lots of good land to grow strong sooner. All the green dots are good inland sites in a pattern that I pondered and played with for a good bit of time. It's all based on supporting Purple Dot, though. Red dots are coastline cities, mostly in rugged areas: the rest of what could be done with the land.

Now for the north:

http://sirian.warpcore.org/civ3/succession/builders-north.jpg

You can see Yellow Dot on this picture as well. White Dot is the priority site: grab that rich land on the river by the sea before the Romans get to it. Must be defended with troops, as well, though don't wait for troops to go grab it.

Green dots are strong and urgent sites, the one on the river as a defensive strong point against future Roman incursion, and the one by all the food goodies as a strong grower. Red dots are other good sites for later, and I've not planned out any further because the Romans would only wreck any longer range plans. They do NOT have much land up there and will start coming south before long. We should get the two greens and the white, and insist on those being ours, and be flexible about the rest. If they grab some land in the middle, as long as its not encroaching on white and green, we can get along with that. Stopping to fight an ancient war is not in our best interest, BUT... under no circumstances give the Romans tech if they threaten us. Expand quickly, but then consolodate and prepare. I've gone for Iron so early to give us the chance to defend against Rome if we have to.

Gray dot in the west LOOKS like the best site over there but may not be. I simply don't have the information. There could be more land over there than meets the eye. What it may come down to is a question of building ONE city, on the river, and having it be strong early, or two cities on the coasts. I like the hill next to gray dot, but it looks landlocked, which is absolutely not desirable for a city over there. I'll leave it up to Charis or Carbon to figure out what to do over there, if anything. Looks to me, now, though, like a lower priority than reaching out to grab purple and blue in the south, yellow in the east, and white and green in the north.

I played 40 turns. Next up is Charis with 20 turns, then Carbon with 20 turns, and we'll see if anyone else signs on by then.

Above all else, the one thing we not do is let the pyramids slip out of our hands. It was a bit of a gambit to build a second settler, I hope that pays off.


- Sirian

Count me in. Sounds fun!

I'd be interested in joining this game. I've been a constant lurker on the other RBD games and enjoyed them thoroughly. :) I've mostly played regent/monarch games on large world maps, but so far I've mostly blitzed as soon as I got knights and later, cavalry, so a building game should be a good change of pace. I have never actually played a succession game, however. So, can I join?

Sounds very good :P

Snagging the file and will play it tonight...

Charis

2150 BC (0) - The American nation had been founded, and strongly so, by
our first President, Sir Iyan, but the people felt that their religious
freedoms were at jeapordy, so they turned to a man of the cloth,
Deacon Charis Lincoln, to lead their country over the next twenty years.

A studious man, Deacon Charis looked over the memoirs of Sir Iyan,
and was pleased with what he read. Only a few points bothered him...

First, the yellow dot east of Washington seemed misplaced. NE one spot
gets us the gold, on the coast, and still 'locks' our borders if a
temple is built there. The crucial southern purple dot was also a slight
puzzle. It was great except for one thing -- it wasn't ACTUALLY on
a river square and would not get those special bonuses (so was it best?)
To the north, the western white and left dots seemed highest priority,
although timing-wise, the green spot on the hill looked more appropriate
against Roman incursions. Deacon Charis does not trust Caesar, and expects
him to expand straight at us, and try to place the border more than
halfway between us. The histograph suggest they have three cities right now,
while we have four, and will place their fourth soon. That border line,
if drawn halfway, would two squares north of green dot, include the nice
sea spot, and be just one square from the NW wheat. Without 'sealing' though,
if we take away a spot where they were moving a settler too, it will keep
moving 'forward' and place itself like a thorn in our side. One question
is... would they like the Egyptians in RBD2, start an early war if we
have many cities with no/little defense, or would they chill out given the
greater room to grow compared to that game? If the latter, low warrior-
high settler gambit could mean a huge space advantage. If not, we'll
not meet the same success as we did their, with this panagaea map and
expansionist neighbors.

2110 BC (1) - Southern scout finds dual wheat site on sea and river
with fish!! Wowza! It's JUST below where you scouted and showed on
your map, but it's a doozie. Deacon Charis may try to grab that site
ASAP and settle 'back' from their towards Washington, unless someone
else gets there first.

2070 BC (2) - Oh crud! It's a stone's throw from our next neighbor,
the Indians. :(

2030 BC (3) - Worker pops out of Boston which starts on a warrior
en route to becoming a settler factory. Madras is contacted, and
Charis meets with Gandhi. He is prepared to give us 50 Gold and Alphabet
for Masonry. Normally the Deacon would accept such an offer, but
his memory prodded him of notes of Sir Iyan, pointing out it's no
deal if we end up losing Pyramids by a turn. Instead I offer him a
token of goodwill (a VERY small token, 1 gold). He would have to be
the worst scout on the planet not to land on this golden site just
to his west.

1990 BC (4) - To the Far East (appropriately) we run across an elite
green warrior, from a country called "Japan". We introduce ourselves
He is annoyed, and points out he is skilled in the arts of war. As
it would take him 500 years just to reach us with warriors, Charis
was not overly scared. Oh my, not only did he not need any tech from
us, but he had Alphabet and the Wheel as well. Hmmm... a worker was
available as well?? He would not part with knowledge, but would actually
sell us a worker! I took him not as a slave, but as a disciple, and
'donated' 27 gold (less than the 30 Tokogawa wanted). They too have
four cities. An extra worker that costs no upkeep this early, nice.
Our industrious bonus vs a 'slow' foreign worker - together this came
out as a non-industrious normal worker (6 turns for a hill road, 12 to
mine, vs 3 and 6 for our regular industrious worker). Acolyte Toshi was
sent to connect Boston to Washington and bring in the holy wine!!

1950 BC (5), 1910 BC (6) - More scouting

1870 BC (7) - Settler and Warrior seen heading due south from Rome.
New York finishes settler and starts warrior, and we discover the
secrets of Iron. The man of the cloth starts Polytheism and notes
a very early Monarchy could be started. Iron is seen to on the
hill one square from white dot near Washington, in the mountains
far east of Rome, and is not seen ANYWHERE else over the visible
map. Fairly scarce I would say, making it a high priority grab.
(If Rome does NOT see their supply they will come after us)

Where to send the settler FIRST? He'll be the only one for a while,
given that all our cities are again size 1. If I look at Rome's area,
that settler of his is heading for the river/sea/whale spot, and his
next area would be the cattle, then perhaps the river to the south.
After that, if he's searched, the sea spot or the wheat would be
prime choices for him. 'Our' iron spot is invisible and too far.
So until we actually need to build something with iron, it can
wait til we 'take our boundaries'. As for heading North or South,
Rome has no choice and will have to come South. India might, for
some reason, go east, and we may have more time. Plus if they get more
jungle while we secure top dog spot in our northern pennisula and
end up hemmed in by India and take out Rome, we're in good shape too.
So first focus will be to the North. Let's go outside-in and hope
Rome follows a more normal "spread from center" approach. The settler
is sent for green dot on the sea. (With its wheat it can provide the
settler for the white dot to its North). "Sealing" with yellow is nice
in theory, but Rome will feel free to walk right on through our
territory (correct me if I'm wrong) and we're not going to get
pushy and say "get out!". The deacon is confident with a strong
Washington that if we don't trade away Masonry we'll get those
Pyramids.

1830 BC (8) - The Deacon is starting to think that Boston should
slip in a Barracks to act as troop provider, while New York
needs a temple to expand boundaries and get that extra wheat square.
He's also worried about disease in Philly someday.

1790 (9), 1750 BC (10) - Simple moves. Philly finishes warrior and
starts a worker. (Why not take advantage of being industrious?)
New York warrior heads to Washington to stave off some unrest when it
hits size 4.

1725 BC (11) - While they're free and towns are quiet, warriors head
to peek west at the fog zones along our coast there.
1700 BC (12) - The iron spot on the hill has TWO fish at knight's
moves from it, nice! (This is the hill next to the grey dot, and
it's not landlocked afterall, but a great spot!)
1675 BC (13) - Nothing but jungle and plain coast west of Philly.
1650 BC (14) - Roman archer shows up nearby, but alone. He's exploring.
Deacon meets up with Joan of Arc, and is nearly smitten with the
Saint. His immediate impulse is to woo her with Iron Working for
her Alphabet and Wheel, and she has met the English and the Greeks.
Joan is to the East of the Indians, quite a long distance away and
through jungle and mountains. Pretty cruddy land for these folks!
She would give us either of her techs merely for contact with the
Romans. But hey, we're the only ones the Romans have met or will
meet in a while. Why help them out?! :P And so, Deacon's counselors
persuade him it's best to let her muddle along and learn what she
needs to on her own. "Never mind."
1625 BC (15) - Ah, a goody hut seen to the west of Washington, so close.
After turn, Joan offers Alphabet for Iron Working. I give her 1 gold
instead, to be polite.
1600 BC (16) - Atlanta is founded at Green Dot. 50 Gold from that goodie
hut (decent, although I would have preferred tech).
1575 BC (17) - Cities near growth, wonder if they'll stay happy.
1550 BC (18) - French and Japanese start the Pyramids, but we're way ahead.
Our scouts note Paris has spices out the wazoo right at Paris.
Considered whipping the temple in New York, but production rate is
actually pretty decent. (Same for Barracks in Boston, it's doing fine)
1525 BC (19) - Move scouts.
1500 BC (20) - Washington expands culture boundary. Philly worker pops
out, ready to work. Starts on road for Silks and connecting to Washington.
Other workers have ignored this key task to mine production in DC.

Consider in DC shifting a worker from the irrigated area to the gold
hills. That would set growth to zero, but we're at max til the silks
arrive. That would shave 3 turns off pyramids too.
The worker next to Philly was planning to start a road and the worker
in the hills of wine was about to mine.
Philadelphia just started the settler, switch if needed.
Note none of the visible capitols of other countries are on the coast.
Gambit Colossus in Atlanta?

Trade? You can get the Wheel from France for 37+1/turn, or the Alphabet
for 32+1/turn.

Suggestions: (Take as my 2 cents) Do *NOT* trade anyone contact with the
Romans. Let them languish in anonymity. Neither give in to any
demands from anyone at this stage. I would stick with the no-tech trades
to Rome either.

Good luck, (Carbon unless Sirian inserts someone in the order)
Charis

Consider in DC shifting a worker from the irrigated area to the gold hills. That would set growth to zero, but we're at max til the silks arrive.

Max? MAX??? Run luxuries and keep growing! 10% will probably only affect Washington anyway, AND the gold from the extra square will pay for it, since we're on a river. Keep growing... and growing and growing. I'd like to see Washington roaring along at size 12 asap, no matter how much luxury has to be run (gold is plentiful and cheap on large maps), and we want to run some luxuries anyway as we go to improve our average score.

As for purple dot, in that forest square, it's definitely on the river. Right click it and observe "1 gold". That's how to tell. Is the only reason you opted not to head down there, that you thought it wasn't on the river? Or would have you sent north anyway?

Yellow dot where it is, vs where you suggest, it would give up two plains (one currently a forest), a hill, and two jungle (future grassland) for the hills with the gold and four sea squares. I really think where I suggested is stronger. Gold is desirable but not worth quite that much, even though it was a painful decision to abandon it. Plus, where you suggest would give it fewer soon-available good food and shield squares.

Green dot up north on the coast, with only one wheat in range, is going to be on one food after reaching size 2 unless a temple is rushed. It's a good grab, but not likely to provide a settler any time soon unless you supply irrigation in a hurry. Everything else sounds good, including the tech stinginess.

AI civs will not just walk through your borders indiscriminately. They will not tend to do so unless they disrespect you as being too weak, or have already "seen" map area beyond, or if they are intent on reaching a barbarian camp. I've held to a tenuous cross-continental situation like that before and not had AI's crossing through. It can be tense, as they may grow restless and demand contact, or if your seal is imperfect. Most often, AI's explore so much (especially expansionist ones) that they slip something past you before you realize it. If the Romans have now marched an archer past us to the south, it's already too late, and don't worry about it.

And yes, they might attack us. We're past the early "cushion" when you can safely run no military. It would be a good idea, if possible, to send a troop with each settler or get one there soon.

I'm glad to hear we're in the lead with the Pyramids. French were the only other civ to start with Masonry, and if they just started, then we should be in good shape if we keep growing Washington.


Carbon: I disagree with Charis's assessment of the urgency of establishing borders with the Romans for one reason: corruption. I plotted out about as far as we could go before the corruption starts to eat in, unless we build the FP up there, and all the lands beyond what I marked are pretty arid. Crowding the Romans may not be the best plan, although we might want to use a scout or two to obstruct them from reaching the best sites for them to build, to mess up their layouts.

The south is going to be the same way with corruption, as the good lands beyond the jungle are also beyond range of the Palace in Washington to control well. A good FP placement down there can double our productive lands eventually, while up north we'd not get as much benefit unless we made a point of trying to wipe out the Romans. If we're going to put the FP at purple dot without needing a leader, we have to get started soon on founding the city, getting a temple and courthouse going before despotism ends, AND still defend the place and secure more cities in the area. The FP coming online will add hundreds of trade and dozens of shields PER turn to everything in the area, so speed really matters.


Time's running late, I'll sort out roster tomorrow.

- Sirian

I'm thrilled at the 'little things' I'm picking up here. I find myself micromanaging and optimizing when my 'errors' are so much bigger or easier to see. Hadn't even thought of looking for '1 gold' to signify river. I right clicked the tile to inspect it and so
no river at all on the border, and thought it not river. Cool! :crazyeyes: (A gaff on the 'max' too, had it come to it,
raising the luxuries is obvious)

I tend too focus TOO much on the special squares vs "give up two plains after you deforest vs sea squares. Good tip.

I didn't think I could seal up border vs scouts, and yes, I'm pretty sure an archer got down. I must be considered 'weak' in other games, cuz they sure like to tromp all over my land (and I do the same to theirs ;p)

The river-ness of purple wasn't the main reason I didn't grab it. I thought two of the nicer ones up North would be at high risk if not founded early, while I don't see Gandhi as saying "I want to expand up to that useless jungle!!" He's just too far south, imho, to be the main threat. Plus if we gain the south and lose the north border, the Romans are a stone's throw from our capitol, which is not true in reverse. Both going N and S have merit, only time will tell I think. Getting ONE settler down there to purple dot is probably a good idea though in any case.

Thanks for the good input,
Charis

Well, far be it for me to look gift volunteers in the horse. :) They were in scarce supply last week. So here's our roster for starters.

Sirian
Charis
Carbon Copy
Toasty
Schnarrd

Carbon will take 20 turns, then we'll settle in to the 10 turn rotation from there forward. I really like 10 turns, because with any more, huge chunks of the game go by before you get another turn, and I feel a little disconnected from the game that way, like things just look SO different when it comes back to me, and you only get a few total turns. With 10 turns, there is more frequent interaction and less dependent on what any one player decides to do.

The roster here is now closed. Good luck, Carbon, and good luck to this team. We have a lot of building ahead of us. :)


- Sirian

This is gonna be a tough one to decide how to play. But that's what they pay me the big bucks for, right? :P

I have yet to start my turn, but I've looked at our world map and I agree with Charis that a higher priority should be placed on containing the Romans to the north than spreading to the south. Settling the yellow dot, the white dot, and the inland green dot should be enough to keep the Romans' growth severely stunted. The area to our south with the purple and blue dots, unless we're REALLY slow off the blocks and India is highly motivated, will be ours anyhow, but that won't necessarily be true of the white and green dots to the north. Sure they'll all be corrupt, but they'll all be ours. If nothing else, we could use them for worker production, especially white dot, that one has a ton of food available (which doesn't get affected by corruption), and the limiting factor in worker/settler production over the long term is almost always the city's growth rate, not the shield output.

I agree with Charis, in that it would be a good idea to send 1 settler down to purple dot quickly to get the FP city going early enough that it will be able to build/whip the stuff it needs to prior to starting the FP. If the rest of the south can be safely ignored for the moment because India's not likely going to expand that way, then it's reasonable to consider doing so until you're satisfied with the situation in the north, but you probably ought to at least plant a stake in the mud down there. It will also help give you advance notice if India does start doing the unexpected and expand in your direction.

Of course I'm not playing in this one so feel free to disregard... :)

Thanks for adding me to the roster, Sirian. I look forward to playing my turns! :D

I also agree with Carbon Copy. The Romans can be a formidable ancient to early middle age foe if allowed to spread indiscriminantly. Although the emphasis in this game is on building and I would prefer that we not risk early combat, I think we can essentially take the Romans out of the game if we move to contain them quickly.

Glanced at the latest save. Looks good so far. :) I think we're going to get the Pyramids, which IMHO is the best of the ancient wonders and plays along nicely with the building theme.

In the year 1500 B.C. there was suddenly a vacuum of power in the fledgling American state. The nation found itself in desperate need of great leadership, but the only two who answered the call of duty were the tacky and unrefined Carbon "C." Lincoln, and the charismatic advocate of temperance and "free silver", the perennial loser William Jennings Bryan. And thus it was that "C.", as he was informally called, took the helm of state in the most lopsided contest for power seen to date in American history, and these are his exploits...

Here's the particulars of my turn. It a classic case of good news/bad news.


1500
-Caesar wants our Ceremonial Burial for his Alphabet. I decline.
-Boston finishes barracks, starts working on spearmen

1475
-The Olmec tribe teaches us Alphabet :crazyeyes (this is a recurring theme. every time I almost trade for tech, some goody hut gives it to us on the next turn)

1400
-We get our first glimpse of actual Japanese towns. They're almost up to France's eastern border along the southern coast

1375
-New York finishes temple, starts on settler

1350
-Boston finishes spear, starts another.
-road from Philly to the silk is complete, still need to connect it to the rest of the country, though.
-Adjusting sci/lux rate to account for Washington growing and limiting wasted beakers

1325
-Both scouts encounter goody huts that they can grab on their next turn. The suspense is killing me.
-Polytheism discovered. Since Poly is pointless by itself, the next tech I queue up is Monarchy. Even if we don't switch to it till after Code of Laws (if we don't just wait for Republic), we appear to be the first to try it so we can probably get the Hanging Gardens all to ourselves.

1300
-Drop sci to 10% as there's no way to get this tech in less than 40 turns without losing a lot of money per turn.
-The goody huts yield a conscript warrior by Japan, and up north the Inuits give us the wheel. I check our territory for horses, there is not a horse to be found within any region that we could possibly colonize, however, all other civs on our map have a horse.

1275
-A warrior that I thought was Japanese turned out to be Greek and we made contact with Greece. He offers Writing for Iron working, which I deny, but I do pay 20 bucks to contact the English. Elizabeth also wants iron working for writing, so i just give her a dollar to shut her up.

1250
-The Inuit tribe comes to our rescue, teaching us writing :crazyeyes. HA!

1225
-The Inuit aren't through with us yet, they give us Mapmaking as a parting gift. So that's five new techs discovered on my turn.

1200-1175
-On one of these turns, a settler is produced in New York, and is sent southward, to either the blue or the purple dot.

1150
-Japanese start the Oracle
-the northern scout makes contact with the Russians. Damn, they're a backwards people. Nothing worth trading on them. Have no clue where they're living, though.
-Establish embassies with the English (so I can figure out where they live, they're to the east of Greece, wich is in turn to the east of Japan, which is east of France, which is east of India, which is to the south of us, just to be different) and also with India. Only had enough cash for two, and those two were the cheapest besides Rome.

1125
-Japan DEMANDS contact with the Russians. I tell Tokugawa to stuff it, if he wants to march 500 turns over to our place he is welcome to do that. Turns out he was just kidding, after all. ;)

1100
-Rome is starting to pick up the settling speed, and if you're paying attention to this you should have realized that we've yet to found a town on my turn. Rome is up to 9 towns now, and their next settler is likely going to land on or near the white dot. I have spearmen staked out on the Green Dot and on the hill near the red dot on the coast, waiting for settlers to be produced. The white dot might end up in Roman hands unless Atlanta can be persuaded to grow more quickly (it's sitting on all the shields necessary to build a settler but is still 7 turns off of size 3 by the end of my turn).

-I grow suspicious of India's recent expansion and I trade 20g for their territory map. Holy crap, they're almost settled up to the purple dot! :eek: I have the settler bypass blue dot (to be settled by a trailing settler from NY or Philly) to grab the purple dot, but we are two or three turns short of founding it there (one or two of movement, then another to settle).

1050
-Get my hopes up with a goody hut, only to find it deserted. :(

1125
-Unit movement (there's a settler from NY headed to the northern green dot, and a settler from philly to settle on the blue dot in the south)

1000
-More movement. We are going to get the Pyramids no sweat. Monarchy is still something like 30 turns away from discovery.

Summary:

-We acheived 5 techs, 4 from goody huts, one from actual research on our part

-We made contact with the Greeks, the English, and the Russians

-We're starting to be out-settled. I don't know what we could have done differently on my turn to prevent this. Boston, with the only barracks in our empire, was churning out vet spears to stake out dots while both NY and Philly did nothing but settler production on my turn after their buildings were done.
Romans settling on White dot is a very real possibility. If that happens, the settler should move to either the red dot on our east coast to seal our borders with Rome or to the Gray dot to get our Iron on line. After the red dot is settled, our expansion efforts should be concentrated downward to meet the Indians. the Purple dot settler is almost to the site, blue dot is on its way, and the northern green dot settler is currently goto'd to reach the correct spot. I think Sirian gave us too many opponents for a large map to do *endless* expansion, it would have worked for a huge map, but I think we're one or two civs too many for a pure settlement game.

-We're about the only civ in the game that doesn't have any horses, nor any chance for horses in the forseeable future unless we conquer another civ.

-We're the most technologically advanced civ, thanks to the huts.

Wow, Carbon will be known as the "Great Scientist", we're in great shape on tech. I got scared by the lack of founding and your description, but after looking at the map I would say we're really in good shape.

- We'll beat Rome to White and one other dot at the border
easily. All his cities are puny, new size 1, and with no great foodstocks. We'll have our key spots settled long before they can crank out another settler, and Rome is too far. Too see if they have one coming from Rome, get that scout up on the mountain asap!

- India is by NO means "almost up to the purple dot". He's no further north from his capitol than we are south (ok, a little bit more) If you split the distance from Washington to Delhi, we can settle there and fill in and do just fine in the South.

- Seal the Rome border before bringing iron online would be my thought

- There seem to be a good amount of Spearmen around, get at LEAST one settler for the north out of boston before resuming with vets

- Good job not caving in to Tokogawa. :goodjob: (Now if he were the rbd2 Toko, we would be doomed ;p)

- Rome is SO isolated and our tech so strong, that if we dont sell contact with Romans, he'll be doomed for early obsolescence ;p

- Once the south is settled and both borders sealed, our only major disaster would be for both India AND Rome to go to war at same time. We could not sustain two fronts (heck, one will take all we got) It will be very nice indeed if this does stay a builder game for a while, we've got a ton of work to do including jungle clearing. :rolleyes:

Well done, and good luck to Toasty, who's up next.
Charis

The big worry I have is that Rome has access to both Iron and Horses (which equals knights if/when they make it to chivalry), and the iron just by itself means that we'll have Legionaries on our hands before too long. We don't even have so much as a pack mule to ride in America, so if we do get into any conflicts with the Romans, it will be our swordsmen versus their legionaries without any fast-moving units on our side (this is sounding kinda like the Infantry game). Maybe if we're lucky the Indians will have a spare horse in their lands and we can buy it off them for a lux or something once we connect roads.

Also, note that once they get mapmaking they're going to start sending settlers to the as-yet unclaimed lands to the East (in which case they're going to build a bunch of corrupt dirt-eating villages, but will also inevitably find the other civs and trade up to tech parity without us)...unless we launch our own flotilla to block them out of shore squares. And we don't even have a city on the shore yet. Oh well, I may not have founded a city, but Toasty is going to found at least three on his turn. Just be sure to put the cities on the dots.

The good news is that there might not be too many civs for too much longer. Out east, it's almost inevitable that someone along that east-west chain of civs on the southern coast (India, France, Japan, Greece, England) is going to get cut off by the surrounding civs. This is a wildcard factor, it may turn out that the East becomes a hopelessly Balkanized region of tiny civs for centuries, or the biggest civ in the neighborhood could just wipe out all the other ones. In the meantime, though, whoever comes out top dog in the less-crowded West (should be us) could become the dominant world power.

I'm going to be gone until around 2:00 AM tomorrow (actually day after tomorrow), so if Toasty uploads his game tomorrow, I'll have to be skipped. :cry: :cry: :cry: Can I be slipped in after Sirian instead?

It's been almost 24 hours since last save posted and no word from Toasty yet. If you still have time, Schnarrd, (and Toasty doesn't post first, to say he's got it) go ahead and take your turn next.

- Sirian

I'd be happy to join in someones place, but i'm not that good yet so you might not be interested, but hey, can't blame you. I followed in the wake of a great many Lurkers, mostly Sirian, his webpage helps :)

So if someone turns up missing, and you'd like to give me a chance, i'll be more than happy to take it.

Toasty, almost 48 hours have passed since the last save was posted. The sands of the hourglass are slipping away.

Because this will be such a large, time-intensive game relative to a typical game, I'm protective of my investment in it, so this game will only be open to experienced folks I know won't wreck the game in the middle by dropping out, vanishing, etc.

That was part of the original post. It's been 48 with no word from Toasty, so I'm dropping him from the roster. Sorry, Toasty, but we want to keep this one moving, and the rules were posted.

That brings the game back to me. I'll play and post. Schnarrd, let us know when you're available again.


- Sirian

Sirian, if you haven't already started playing the game, I'll jump in and take my turns. If you have already started, no big deal. Should I play after you, or with the drop-out of Toasty would you prefer to reorganize the roster?

Good work, Carbon. The right number of troops in the right places in the north, plenty of settlers moving around. I founded six new cities and only built one settler, just the way things break with only ten turns per player now.

Inherited turn: changed Philly and NY to temples, shuffled some food around with Boston/Washington, established embassy with Russia. Russia is rather isolated, but being an expansionist civ, I figured they had to have one or more scouts out and would soon make contact with somebody, so I traded them contact with the world for their world map, Horseback Riding, and all their gold (10). Their map revealed they had units ON THE DOORSTEP of Japanese land, so this move was born out.

First turn: took settler heading north off of Goto, and prepared to send him to white dot. Changed Atlanta's second tile from plains to sea, picking up one gold per turn (shields were maxed on the settler). Used the worker in the area to build road toward site of future Houston (and bring irrigation back from the river). Found a goody hut in the No Man's Land between Russia and Japan, and, seeing a black area in the region the Russians had not explored yet, decided to backtrack for a look, and hope for a goody hut.

Early turns: Founded Chicago, Seattle, San Fran. Finished Pyramids, watched most civs switch to Great Library, established embassy with France and saw that they are CLOSE to finishing the GL -- too close for us to even have a prayer, so this bears out Carbon's gambit to skip Literacy and head right for Monarchy. That is going to pay off for us handsomely, I think. We are sure to get the Hanging Gardens in Washington as long as we don't trade Polytheism or Monarchy under any circumstances. Got Philosophy from the hut.

Middle turns: my backtrack pays off as I find a hut in the black region in No Mans Land (henceforth, NML), it gives us 50 gold. Founded Buffalo on the coast, Houston on the river, whipped some temples, and churned out a worker per turn from Washington (knowing it was pointless to start another wonder there at the moment). I set some of the workers to start in on bringing irrigation out to Buffalo, set one to building road toward Miami, sent one south to help build roads down there, and set one to building road in preparation for the next settler, to be founded ON the iron west of Boston. As Charis found out, this location is not landlocked, and it's our next priority. The iron is on the river and also on the sea, so it's perfect, and the road there is already complete, so that worker can do some irrigation and roads over there.

Late turns: whipped barracks in New York and Philly: we are in DESPERATE need of some military in the south, and it's almost invariably better for expansion to let new cities whip temples asap while older cities with barracks crank out vet spearmen to garrison the new colonies, in between building more settlers. I also established more embassies (especially with the Romans, who were down to annoyed but are now back to polite). Then I paid cash for everyone's territory map (not much, about 10-20 per civ) to get that info on the table, and especially to find out what India was doing. Apparently, their priority has been set exclusively to battling the French for grabbing land between them, as India has settled low-yield new towns in the tundra to their south, and not settled a single new town in our direction during my turn. That will change eventually, but we do have Purple Dot City established, and also blue dot.


Analysis: Now that our entire northern border has been established and all but one of our desired locations up there settled (the Romans grabbed one at Hispalis), it is time to turn our focus to expansion in the south, and let the northern cities, supported by Boston, do their own consolidating up north. Boston is building one more settler, for the iron city to its west, then it needs to crank spearmen and swordsmen (no need to whip) to strengthen our garrisons and deter the Romans. Rome has one warrior wandering around IN our lands, but he has been careful to avoid infringing on our territory, so I don't expect any trouble from him. Rome is notoriously slow at building culture, especially in its distant, corrupt colonies, so if we whip temples on the fronts lines, and build vet units at Boston (which itself needs a spearman, since it DOES have luxuries - don't tempt the AI to attack by ignoring Boston garrison), we should have the stronger position up there. They do not yet have wheel or iron working, so we know they haven't been stockpiling dangerous units as yet and won't be in a position to attack in the near future. I think.

Down south, we are totally vulnerable. If there had been barbarians on this map, I'd have had to build units down there sooner. Our new colonies are sitting empty, preparing to whip temples and waiting for vet spearmen from the cities with barracks. Now that we have Pyramids, our growth curve will shoot up! We can't afford to whip any one city too much -- there's no need, and more than a few whippings at this point will linger in effect for too long -- but we can afford to whip a temple in each town, a barracks here or there, and a courthouse, especially in Chicago, San Fran, and Seattle. We are not going to have the whip for much longer, as I believe we should switch to Monarchy as soon as we get it, or shortly after, and build the Colossus in Atlanta, which will probably kick off a Golden Age for us, which once we are out of Despotism is a GOOD thing, even this early, because we aren't going to get the GL, and we're going to want to race ahead to Education ASAP to cancel it out, grab Sistine and Bach (as well as Gardens) and own all the big happiness wonders to BOOST OUR SCORE, which after all is the point of this game, to expand and score big over time.

Why colossus in Atlanta? Every civ now building any kind of wonder is doing so in landlocked cities. Every last one. So not one of those will cascade to Colossus/Lighthouse. French will get the Great Library, then someone will probably get Oracle the following turn, then the cascade will end. Only a couple of civs even have a decent coastline city at all. Atlanta, with irrigation on the way, a whipped temple soon, and then two wheat, whale and some forests, should be able to get the Colossus, but only if we all team up to make it happen. We can let Monarchy come at min science, but then we need to have some libraries and cash reserve in place by then and go high science to speed ahead to the middle age. Ignore Republic (we'll trade for it later, once everyone has it) and rely on a golden age to boost our science rate for a while, enough to keep Washington building wonders one after another while the other towns crank expansion items: troops, workers, settlers, and in new colonies, infrastructure.

If we get a golden age, immediately rush-buy a courthouse in Chicago if it doesn't have one yet, then start it on the Forbidden Palace, to get max output toward that from the Golden Age bonus. Chicago's whole output could be bent toward getting the FP as soon as possible, and for that, it needs to build a temple and a courthouse first, then the Palace, while being supported by military and workers sent forward from other cities. And of course there are the AI's to deal with, so don't take any undue chances, but keep wonder-building cities focused and use the other cities to support them. Right now is a good time for Washington to catch up on temple and library. It should not be used to build settlers, since we want it larger to get the next wonder sooner (I know I used it for workers, but we really NEEDED the workers and there was nowhere else.)


Schnarrd: I would like for Charis to remain after me in the turn order, so I plan to keep things as: Sirian, Charis, Carbon, Schnarrd, for the long term. However, you did your miss your turn this time, and I don't want to give you two turns this round, so you can have your choice: take your turn from this round now (and be skipped on your normal turn this round), or wait until your normal turn. Whichever you prefer.

So it will either go:

Schnarrd
Charis
Carbon

or:

Charis
Carbon
Schnarrd

...for the rest of this round. Whichever you choose, Schnarrd. Then we're back to normal turns on the third round.

Schnarrd: post to let us know which you choose, and good luck if you are taking your turn next.


- Sirian

I've downloaded the game and hopefully will post later tonight.

After the sudden retirement of Sirian, interim ruler after the Milquetoasty debacle (no offense to Toasty if you’re out there :) ) the great country of America was left in chaos as Siran’s advisors pondered who should its next ruler. They determined that a weak ruler should be chosen so that the throne could be controlled by the advisors (a course of action that would be repeated many times in history). To that end, they chose Schnarrenberger, who was first discovered chewing grass among the cow herds that frequented San Francisco. Soon after ascending the throne, Schnarrenberger encountered his first crisis: his name was unpronounceable and so long that it took a full stone tablet to write in full. Thenceforward, for the ease of communication and to ease the cramped hands of the scribes, Schnarrenberger’s advisors nicknamed Schnarrenberger Schnarrd.

Schnarrd’s rule was a quiet one, his only major decision during his rule being to shorten his name to a more reasonable length. He developed a reputation for being an oddball, however, since the only words people heard him speak were variations of “Moo.” he was often found drooling and defecating in various cow herds throughout the country. For this reason, perhaps his death was fitting: an experiment with catapults went awry, flinging a cow high into the air, through Schnarrd’s bedroom window, and on to Schnarrd just as he was getting dressed. As a side note, groups of Schnarrd's advisors were later found eating sandwhiches they called "bergers." When asked what they were made of and where they got the ingredients for the "bergers," they simply cackled evilly.

Well, I didn't have to do much this go-round (10 turns go so fast!). I whipped a temples in the border cities and bulked up the military, but I did not build any swordsmen, only spearmen. Late into my reign I discovered that just about all the civilizations had Polytheism - the only civ lacking it was the English. Therefore, I brokered Polytheism and 40 gold to the English for Code of Laws and Mathematics. Also, the only new city I founded was the iron city, but a settler is heading south with more being built. The only other thing that I should mention is that Atlanta is building a courthouse so that corruption will be less when the Colossus is built.

With the rapid onslaught of polytheism, the minds of the people
once again turned to spiritual matters, and Deacon Charis II came
to power. He often spoke forcefully about "living our lives to please
the King, who is our wisdom and strength." This was interpretted by
his advisors as a need to investigate the Monarchy form of goverment,
and to move toward this new way... He began by a review of history,
and read what the prophets had to say. In summary, they foretold:

- Atlanta will be a great city. Treat it right and let it discover the
joys of the Colossus someday.
- The so called 'Great' Library is inferior to Education, and people
thinking for themselves.
- The people of Washington desire the beauty of Gardens, preferably Hanging.
(Longer term, Sistine and Bach, available with Theology and Music Theory)
- Encourage the people towards sacrifice for the good of the country,
as that will not be possible under a king.
- Be careful not to let Boston fall to terrorists.
- The people want to build a Forbidden Palace in Chicago, maybe we should ;p

He then reviewed the state of the Union after the great Bovine king,
Schnard (who does remind me much of a certain Lemming in his writing style :D)

- He finds odd the apparently rushed granary in Chicago, until an advisor
reminds him we have built the Pyramids!
- The wall production in Houston seems odd. The deacon is unfamiliar with
the effectiveness of walls.
- Charis II is also somewhat surprised by the courthouses being built when
there is land yet to be grabbed! Twelve cities, and only one settler in
production. As he looks more closely at each city, there is in fact no
extra place that can afford a settler at the moment. At least one settler
is moving in the field near Seattle.
- He notes the luxury rate is one higher than it needs to be an lowers it,
but promises to keep a close eye on it.

The good deacon expected but a short reign, so set about with these priorities.

* Meet the religious needs of the people, every city with a temple.
(Houston is switched off walls and temple rush planned)
* Continue infrastructure and plant seeds for expansion by next ruler.

550 BC (0) - Tweak a few settings, but all seems ok. Chicago finishes
its temple, and for this alone, the people cheer and want to build
his Palace! (But, but... I've just started!) Grounds and steps built.
Also, Athens of Greece has finished the Oracle (which has one of the
shortest lifespans of any wonder, iirc) Russians and Japanese switch to GL.

530 BC (1) - A Spearman and warrior are seen to come out of Pisae, yet no
Settler. Where are they going, and why? Puts Boston to making a Swordsmen,
for the Deacon knows that the Sword is sharp, able to divide bone and
marrow, and to penetrate the hearts of men!

510 BC (2) - Wash finishes library, starts placeholder for Hanging Gardens.
SF and Miami expand borders and English join the losing GL race. Huh wait,
French shift to Great Lighthouse. (Both likely due soon by some country)
Luxury to 10% to keep DC and NY fully working. Folks seem to be dead on
par with us in Tech, but have no contact with Romans. I hope GL's both
finish and end cascade before they get Monarchy and can switch to gardens.
Rome is still polite and WAY behind on tech, lacking even the means to bury
their own dead! Everyone is polite, excellent for a builder game ;p

490 BC (3) - Philly finishes spearman and thinks about Swordsmen (6 vs 4 turns,
same defense, triple offense), but decides on a Settler first. Miami is
set to be our Worker factory it looks like, taking 4 turns to grow and 5 to
produce worker. An Indian warrior is on his way up to scout. Some micromanage
of worker locations works nicely in cities like NY on this turn.
Seattle now 38 shields from temple, and the people are whipped into a
fervor that lets them finish in one turn. Houston is 39 away, and is
whipped for a temple.

470 BC (4) - NY completes Settler and starts another. Houston as our front
line city, starts a barracks. The French complete the Great Library at
Paris. Deacon notes Boston has no temple and doesnt like idea of a border gap
due to that, so he changes production. Deacon is half tempted to send the new
NY Settler up north to close that gaping large one open spot toward Rome, but
decides we're too behind in the South to do that. With Chicago as FP, we
want to have a line at Chicago or just beyond. Going past that would be
overreaching and India will beat us there or beat us down.

450 BC (5) - Chicago expands boundaries, starts Courthouse. (I'm confused
thought... the civolopedia says Courthouse reduces Corruption, but NOT
waste. Ie, gold loss, not shield loss.) Moves a worker in St.Louis,
and notes the City Governor was set (!!!) *WE* are the city governor!
Do not let mere AI handle this vital task in a builder game!

430 BC (6) - The Indians are building the Colossus. Drats. Atlanta is now
size 4, producing 4 or 5 shields, and 43 turns from Colossus. The Courthouse
would give at best one extra commerce and no shields. Now is the time
to switch to Colossus, decides Charis II. Houston whips a Barracks, with
end of whipping days coming soon, and St.Louis it's temple does whip.

* Test * Opens up RBD2 game with Tokogawa. In Matsuyama, size 7 with a
courthouse, commerce is 12(8+4corrupt) shields are 11(3 waste). Zero growth
four happy citizens, 3 content. I sell the courthouse (for a paltry 10 gold),
and next turn, rates are then: 12(6+6corrupt), shields are 11(4waste).
Ah, despite civopedia comments, waste (shields) is affected. Two other
tests. Lets see effect of courthouse on 'miserable' city with all but
one shield wasted. Salamanca was wasting 11 of its 12 shields and 15 of 16
commerce. It had no courthouse - one was rushed and rates were completely
unchanged. (Which means that it's mods are before caps, and waste and
corruption are so bad they would be negative if not for min-1 rule.)
What about WLTKD? Matsu alread had it going and was too happy to stop.
Shimonoseki was wasting 1 of 6 shields and 5 of 16 commerce. Inducing WLTK
there had no effect, even after several turns. (Then again waste was minimal
to start.) Our situation has San Francisco in minimal waste. We could get
zero or one shield, zero or one gold, and would 'lose' shields produced
toward Courthouse in the race for Colossus. He stands with the wonder shift.
(The deciding factor is that the 2 citizen whip needed for courthouse
would take some time to regrow population for same shield growth)

410 BC (7) - French want an audience to swap territory maps. I give her a
gold piece instead. St.Louis starts a worker. About to hit Monarchy,
what's left to whip? The harbor in Buffalo is about it.

390 BC (8) - We learn Monarchy, but put off going there one turn to whip
the Buffalo harbor, now needing just under 40 shields. Choose Currency,
although Construction was considered too. (Skipping republic) Washington
switches to Hanging Gardens, due in 22 (meaning we're likely to get it)
Boston is micromanaged to get temple in 2 turns. Settler in Chicago heads
East, to start on a "line of 4" from coast to coast, to form and seal our
border with India. Alas, can't see which spot yet, but there's a mix of
country and hoping for something useful. A spearman is just ahead a step
or two, to scout.

After cracking the whip the shields appear, so we leave Despotism behind us!
The Deacon is proud to see a temple in every city (except Boston, done in 2
turns and Buffalo, queued next)

370 BC (9) - Anarchy.

350 BC (10) - Anarchy. Note, the Settler and Spearman to the SW of Seattle
have NOT moved! The Indian warrior near us is trying to hide an Ivory
square! We're on the hill I intended to found the city on, which is
better defense, has ivory in square, and is near but not on a river.
With that city down, and one more east on river about 2-3 squares, we'll have
a solid wall of four cities as our Southern border. With one more squeezed
in south of Chicago, whereever we can fit it, it will produce nicely due
to proximity of Forbidden Palace there (someday). Our next leader might
well prefer to move ONE square NW, now on the coast, and overlapping
less. Or go one square East if you want to try to seal the border with
only 3 cities instead of 4 (I don't like that option as much).

The second southern settler is also un-moved for turn. He was going to
step next to Spearman. Together they could scout the hills close
to Chicago, or go for the forest square on the coast which is a Knight's
move to TWO gold and the Plains Cattle (yum). OR... you could backtrack
for a more consolidated border by snagging the Whale-capable square in
the jungle, NE of Chicago.

Other notes, besides key point on settler, above. Our workers almost have
the road to Chicago finished. Likewise Miami is almost connected, for our
last unconnected city (besides two new ones about to appear). We're also
looking to get a second path to Houston as our point city. Another worker from
Seattle has started a road to the west as well. Anarchy should end in about
three turns (?). You'll have massive reshifting of workers when that happens,
with so current income and entertainers all over the place. When Atlanta snaps
out of Anarchy, the benefits of Monarchy should lead it and Washington to need
nicely fewer turns to finish!

Good luck, should be a fun turn next! (Especially since you have two settlers yet to move in 350 BC)
Charis

Out of the chaos there rode a large man upon a mule with squinty eyes and a harsh Bostonian accent. Astride his lowly beast of burden, he plodded into the vacant palace in Washington and made a declaration:

"I am Theodore C. Roosevelt, and I am going to be your king."

When asked what the "C." stood for, the only reply he would ever give was "Your Majesty".

He was never known as a terribly literate man, and his reign was all too brief to judge his performance as a leader, but he was the best there was to be had at that time. Upon assuming the throne he surveyed the production of his lands left untended during the long period of anarchy. He reassigned some squares in some towns but nothing major was changed (which indeed the next ruler should change as he forgot to take most towns off of max food, being rather fond of eating, himself). His most notable reassignment was to arrest a wandering troupe of minstrels, and after declaring there to be "No Molly-coddling about" he placed them in forced labor in the gold mines outside of washington, cutting the construction time on Deacon Charis's Hanging Gardens nearly in half.

There were two cities founded during his reign, one at opposite coasts along the southern region. Fort New Orleans was constructed upon the Eastern shore, upon rather poor lands, placed primarily to seal the eastern border against Indian incursions. The site was also chosen for its access to no fewer than three prime city-building sites without interrupting their eventual growth. In the West, Detroit was founded on the hill upon which King Roosevelt had found him loitering. It also so happened that it had access to three prime city building spots without overlap, as well. This delighted the King to no end, and he spent many late nights in the royal chambers planning the placement of future American cities.

His joyousness was disturbed almost as soon as it began when news from Buffalo arrived: Those unwashed backwater hicks, the Romans, figured out how to fit their smelly bodies into boats without the stench killing themselves, and this reeking vessel of theirs was staggering down America's eastern seaboard, wilting crops as it passed. He sent an envoy to the Romans to check upon their technological situation. He was quite surprised that they had managed to acquire naval skills without first figuring out how to write or even bury their own dead, much less bathe. This development with the Romans disturbed him, but there was little to do about it as the American Navy was completely nonexistant, not even a toothpick to its name.

Roosevelt asked his surly and cryptic advisor, William Jennings Bryan, about the best course to take with the Romans, and received the impassioned response, "You shall not press down upon the brow of labor this crown of thorns, you shall not crucify mankind upon a cross of gold!" This, of course, made absolutely no sense and was of no help at all, and Mr. Bryan was led away to the Washington Gold Mines, where he spent the rest of his days toiling underground and grumbling about the unfairness of what he called "the gold standard."

In plainspeak:

-Founded New Orleans on the east coast, Detroit on the west coast. Both started on temples.

-Hanging Gardens are under 20 turns to completion, IIRC

-Road completed to Chicago

-The Romans are starting to get uppity. Something will need to be done, but what that will be shall be up to Sirian. We will probably have to introduce them to the world now. They MIGHT also settle in the free jungle squares upon our east coast between New Orleans and whatever city is north of New Orleans on the east coast. this would be a bad thing. The good news is that the Romans are pathetic, culturally. They don't even have ceremonial burial, much less temples.

-Two settlers that Charis started were produced and sent towards Chicago. Two more settlers were being trained to follow them.

-Establishing our next (final?) line of cities is going to be critical. There are a few very good settling squares that the spearman uncovered (i sent him to scout south rather than lead the way to New Orleans, which is still ungarrisoned). I will try to make a dotted map to show my plan for settlement. The one that I think is most critical is under the spearman to the south of Chicago, with a plains wheat on a river, followed by the ones to its east and west (one grabs a coastline/river with plains cow, the other another ivory or two).
-Currency is 7 turns out, we're running at a very modest deficit (-single digits, varies on the turn) for our treasury (~600).

-Ten turns in this game seemed like two turns. 10 turns in the LK8 game (just started the Industrial age) seem like 50 turns.

-Now that we can't fully contain the Romans anymore, once we consolidate to our south we might want to build military and wax the Romans before we start seeing Legionaries and Horsemen. In any case, we'll want to build lots of military, we're as thin as paper, with some holes punched in it.

1) San Fran and Atlanta need to be reworked so their production isn't totally retarded like it was when I played

2)Rome: Somehow they managed to slip past us and trade up to tech parity. I don't think their stinking barge has gone past our ports, so I'm at a loss as to why they are where they are It's possible that I missed a boat, but I don't remember seeing one until after we came out of anarchy (4 turns in), because I remember seeing their techs that they haven't discovered in the diplomacy window , and they had nothing. I check on turn 10, and they've got everything we have except for Monarchy, plus construction. :eek:

3) Dot map: here's the legend:

Black: cities that were founded before my turn + their city areas

Magenta: Cities that I founded on my turn (New Orleans and Detroit) plus their eventual city areas once their borders expand.

Green: Highest (IMO) priority spot. zero overlap with chicago, sits on a river (kinda hard to see zoomed out), and adjacent to a grassland wheat.

White: Actually, that's not the best spot. The best spot is 1 southwest of it, then it places more pressure on the Indian town, claims both ivories, is still on the river, but on top of the hill. Second priority behind the Green dot. If we can get those two, we'll have a buffer around Chicago with pretty high-production towns.

Orange: Should be shifted 1 sw also, not much changes except it goes onto the coast and trades some plains for sea. Tertiary priority with the yellow dot.

Yellow: Claims a sea/river spot, plus the plains cow. Tertiary priority along with the Orange dot

Turquoise: Possible sites for filling out our southern holdings. The land isn't all that great, but we might as well build them. The eastern one has one square of overlap with Seattle (but access to the whale), the western one fits pretty snugly.

I opened the save from Carbon Copy's reign and wow! You weren't kidding about the paper-thin military! It's more like as thin as a runway fashion model! The next ruler might want to change one our cities with barracks to pumping out spearmen. Also, I noticed Atlanta, which is building the Colossus, could be micro'd to drastically reduce the amount of time required to build the Colossus, seeing as how it is at size 6 and cannot grow beyond size 6 until construction (no fresh water). Other than that, I think we're going to beat the Indians to the next line of cities. Too bad about the Romans, but bound to happen at some point.

Charis: City governor? :confused: All I can say is, I never use it in my games. Not sure about the rushed granary, either. I was building the city walls because I was afraid of a Roman onslaught, because they are useful before you get aquaducts. Looking back on it though, it was a somewhat weedy decision because there were no signs of a Roman buildup. All in all, I commit my share of weed-induced decisions. :smoke:

Well what a crock that is -- those stinky pests getting Tech parity?!! What did they pay with? I thought they were fully backward, but perhaps the price on ancient techs is fairly low and/or they managed to scrape up some cash.

Good choices for the fort and Detroit, and excellent proposed sites. I'm not sure if we'll get them, being so close to India, but if we do... Chicago is truly a hub in its own right for the forbidden palace, the center of a cluster of cities. If we get those two, and if India doesn't start a fight, instead concentrating their efforts East, we're golden!

Alas, the worst case scenario is not pretty. Rome found a city between Buffalo and New Orleans, requires/declares war, and allies with India.

The middle scenario is palatable, but close. With two settlers for the dot, one for buffalo-newOrleans zone, and one "in the gap" of unclaimed space next to Rome, we're done with settler production. With infrastructure in good shape (temples everywhere, a courthouse or two and a harbor) we can then go max military, and if Rome or India dally, we can become something more than the continent's whipping boy :P With no military soon, I can see the threats increasing, and someone like militaristic Toko coming after us, and Rome becoming brazen.
The other nice part of the middle scenario is the finishing of the Hanging Gardens and Colossus. :) (That in-the-gap town would be in horrible territory, pure unadulterated plains, but it would be a sacrificial lamb that gives us time between a Roman declaration of war, and mobilization of troops to defend San Fran, Atlanta, Houston and Miami.

The game is shaping up nicely, should be a very fun next couple of turns.
Charis

PS to Schnaard, no rushed granary, that was a misintepretation seeing the granary when in fact it was a virtual granary due to having Pyramids

Actually, I'm not surprised about the Romans getting tech parity. In one of my games as the Persians, the Zulu were on an isolated continent until Astronomy. While everyone else was close to the industrial age, they were just beginning with the Renaissance technologies. As soon as one of the AI's discovered them, they were on a par with everyone else in terms of technology. Sometimes I wonder if the AI's conspire with each other against the human player.

PS to Charis: Yeah, I make the same mistake sometimes. Also, who is Lemming?

Plans seldom survive contact with the enemy.

On my first turn, I saw an Indian settlement pair move up into the space south of Chicago, definitely on pace to beat our settler there. I took a bold move and sent the spearman from Chicago out across the river to help secure the location. I had to do QUITE the shuffle and dance with our spearmen to blockade the Indians, but I pulled it off. Our early delay in getting started in the south has come back to haunt us a little, in that we have lost control of some of the lands, but I did the best I could with it and managed to get the most valuable of the remaining lands (barely), and possibly even all of the ivory. I'd rushbuild temple and library in Pittsburgh if I wasn't sure we'd need the cash for more urgent things.

Here's a shot of the situation in the south at the end of my turn:

All kinds of plans have gone awry. The first came when the Roman archer slipped past us, when Charis opted to found at Atlanta instead of Buffalo. That archer is why the Romans got to tech parity. I thought everyone on the team realized this? Maybe not. We could have done better to trade the Romans everything right before they would make contact, and I would have to start my turn if it hadn't already happened, but it was anyone's guess as to how long that would be. It's not the worst thing that they were kept in the dark for so long, and realize they would have paid bottom dollar for everything, maybe 100ish gold tops. The total lack of ceremonial burial for them earlier has left them hopelessly bereft of culture. Not a single one of their towns has expanded borders as yet, not even Veii, though some of their inner cities probably will soon. The Roman archer is on a return trip now and has just passed through the New Orleans area.

Since the Romans are out of the bag, there was no more need to keep our world map secret. Also, the Japanese had discovered Monarchy, and the GL gave it to the French, so there was little use in holding on to it from the other Civs. On the inherited turn, I established our last embassy, with the Greeks, and saw that they were just starting on the Great Wall. With just Currency to go until the Middle Ages, I realized that we had better build the Great Wall ourselves, or else the cascade is going to cost us Sistine Chapel. I changed Boston to the Great Wall and told our northern lands to fend for themselves for a while. I also changed Atlanta to speed up the Colossus. I set Miami to build walls -- it not being on a river, and us getting the Great Wall, it will be worthwhile to build walls in our frontier cities, at least the ones that need aquducts or those with really bad food production. Some of the ones on rivers can get to size 7 (same effect as walls) quickly enough not to benefit from walls. We'll be beelining to Music Theory (Theology, Education), so arrival of pikes will be delayed, thus the walls make more sense yet, with some our towns being too widely scattered to rely on quick reinforcements.

I traded World Map to everyone for all I could get, including their world maps, one greek worker, and traded Monarchy to everyone who didn't yet have it for all I could get. See, here's the thing about tech development. The first civ to acquire a tech has to pay a STEEP price. The second civ also pays a high price (in cash, or beakers). Each civ after that pays less and less and less, so that even the most pathetic civs can catch up on the cheap. The system is designed to promote parity, and though I have some grumbles about it, it does prevent the massacre of any one civ being hopelessly stuck in the dark ages. Also, if the AI's have X amount of research toward the tech, and trades take place that reduce the cost below X, they get the breakthrough automatically. The player does not, in the same situation, but can buy the tech for 1 gold from any civ that has it. (Found that out in an Emperor game where I didn't reach the top of the food chain until Theory of Evolution). The civs that were behind on Monarchy weren't going to speed up Japan's next discovery by getting caught up, so I brokered.

I also decided then and there to broker Currency to the whole world when we got it. Three reasons: 1) to get the two science civs into the middle age, let them get their free Monotheism, buy it from them and jump right to research on Theology. (Let's get this party started!). 2) Brokering immediately is the time to do it, if at all: when you can get 2nd-civ value from the highest bidder, and work the way down through the food chain. Getting their gold can speed us up, and slow them down. But the real kicker is, the very same gold they collectively pay us will go to buying us Monotheism, thus actually FURTHERING us in this one unique situation, and leaving all the other civs too broke to buy Monotheism for themselves from the science cultures. 3) The sooner to Education, the less benefit to the French. Why should we be researching Monotheism at max cost, when we could buy it at 4th-civ cost (after the science cultures get it, and the French get it from the Library). Every tech the French do not get for free is to our benefit. Thus I maxed our science rate on Currency.

I also set New York and Philly to building military, and that's all they built for my whole turn. I then rushbuilt the courthouse at Chicago for cash, and figured I was ready to play my first turn. :)


230BC: Had to run an entertainer at San Fran. Disbanded our scout in England: I had traded for everyone's world map, and there was nothing left over there to scout. There is a second No Man's Land north of England, which if there is anything left to it down the road, we should grab some of that for ourselves once we have ships that can cross ocean.

In my test games, the No Mans Land areas have been closer to my homeland, thus more room to expand and more colonies to contest over. Not this game. At the arrival of AD, our lands are nearly filled. So it goes.

I sent our scout and tribal warrior above Japan toward the horsies in that area, with the intention of planting root there and denying the location to Japan as long as possible.

I woke our final scout, which was doing nothing but spying on Roman women bathing in the river, to play a "full court press" against Roman settler pairs now moving into our territory (on their way south, presumably, to some of our unclaimed jungles). The scout was ordered to stand directly below the foremost settler pair to prevent them from moving down each turn. They can move southeast, or southwest, but not south, and this should slow them a little.

210BC: Construction begins on the Forbidden Palace. :love2:

Washington grows to size 11. Time to increase luxury to 20%. I shift DC from high food to max shields and shave a turn off the Gardens, and open a flood plain for Boston, which is shifted now to high food while it waits on its temple to expand and its hills to be mined. Dancing with the devil in the pale moonlight south of Chicago, rushing settlers and troops to the area and DESPERATE to stop the Indians from seizing this spot. I barely, and I mean barely, managed it. If you want to see how bad it was, go ahead and reply a few turns from the last save and see for yourself. :) Geeze.

190BC: New York builds our first, and only, swordsman. He is sent south with the order to "Guard Chicago at any cost." I shuffled New York around to max shields (10 per) and started cranking spears every other turn. I urge this course of activity be continued until such time as the sun itself falls from the sky and burns out, never to rise again. (We are desperate for military, this city can't do wonders, it's now too large to waste on settlers, and it's got the perfectly efficient 10 shields per turn going, so it's cranking them out at almost a fast enough rate to keep up with the demand). It can make swords or spears as the situation warrants.

I realized Buffalo still had no troops, and was on high food with its temple expected... never. So I swapped to some hills and set a worker to chop that forest and open up the last plains spot.

Sweatin bullets in the south with the dance down there. (Oh wait, bullets haven't been invented yet. Sweating arrows, then! Heh).

170BC: Has deodorant been invented yet? No? Well then don't get downwind of me, this is simply TENSE. If this kind of shenanigans were taking place in real life, it might provoke a war.

Japanese settler pair shakes fists at our scout and warrior, then heads north toward the dyes. We should keep these guys here, I think, as I expected the AI to settle in a less optimal spot on the river, but it abandoned the area entirely! If we move, I bet the speed with which he jumps in there would spin heads.

150BC: Syracuse appears as a blight on our land. Guess we found out where the Romans were headed with that ship. I'll bet a dollar to a donut that there's either rubber or coal over there, as they passed plenty of good jungle before landing where they did. The AI is KNOWN to beeline right to future sites of resources. (Ain't that just too convenient? Heh). But no worries. That is a guaranteed flip to us, eventually, IF we squeeze its borders just a little. The best news is, Romans are totally sad on building culture. That one may even become ours sooner rather than later. And the worst case is, we simply take it from them if push comes to shove.

More bad news, Indian galley sails past Detroit. Expect another blight in our back lines soon. Everyone and their sister starts the Great Wall and the Hanging Gardens. I sent a spear to Atlanta, and sent its warrior on to San Fran (to help quell unrest).

130BC: Baltimore founded! Yes! VICTORY! This has to be one of my greatest Civ3 accomplishments ever. (I kid you not). I felt like I'd been put through a torturous eye-popping brain-fuzing chess problem. :eek:

Currency researched! I brokered to Japan first (16 gpt! plus cash), then to India, then Rome, then FRANCE (Huh? Guess the library doesn't kick in on the same turn, and what kind of weed were they smoking :smoke: buying this tech when they'd have gotten it for free anyway???), then the rest for pennies. Traded SILKS (!!!) and 280ish gold to Russia for Monotheism. (This is why you build a harbor SOMEWHERE, early on -- in this case at Buffalo, and kudos to all for not swapping off of that choice even though I didn't explain my early trade ambitions). Set research to max (80%, 20% Lux) and still running 26 per turn surplus income. Theology due in 14 turns.

110BC: Indian settler from Baltimore heads east, likely to grab the cattle south of New Orleans. Don't think we can get anything more over there. New York keeps a spear it built for its own defense (and we should upgrade defenders in Washington, Boston, and Philly soonish. Maybe not immediately but certainly before the end of Charis's turn). Scout impeding Romans is having some success. They have been delayed at least a turn or two, and the one from the back is catching up. If I had any more units AT ALL to spare, I'd add them to this effort. But I don't.

90BC: Settlers move into our next desired locations, west of Chicago. More Indians settlers, and some French units, threatening the area, so once again got there JUST in time.

70BC: Founded Pittsburgh and Denver on river spots. Denver has some overlap, but that's the best I could do. We simply COULD NOT leave that area empty, so close to the FP. Rule of thumb is, barring some compelling reason, city closer to the capital (or FP) gets the overlap, so Detroit will likely give way more or all of that overlap to Denver, while Denver concedes to Chicago. Not a real problem until Sanitation anyway, though. Pittsburgh will need a swrdsman by the end of Charis's turn or expect India to attack it. I kid you not, get some units down there and build walls. More units in Chicago are also warranted, and another one at Detroit. Any city with a resource, at least two defenders. (Philly, too, but it's far enough in the back to wait a bit. Also Boston. Don't wait on Boston, let it build itself a spear when the Wall finishes).

FINALLY built a garrison troop for Buffalo, and sent it on its way. Sent a troop toward Denver, also, due to arrive in 30BC.

50BC: Founded Harper's Ferry. New Bombay appears as a blight on our land, and in a skanky location, too. :mad: New Madras also appears. Our border now seems fixed.


To be continued...

We might squeeze one more overlapped city onto the river west of Detroit, and one between Baltimore and New Orleans -- or maybe even south of New Orleans, but don't count on it.

There are still some jungle lands left to settle. We have a settler due on the next turn in St. Louis, and one due eventually in Seattle. Miami is due for a barracks and can crank some troops. San Fran is due for courthouse, and it should build barracks and crank troops, as it is fairly well exposed. Atlanta could forego the barracks and build some catapults, after its wonder. We are going to suffer for lack of horses, yet no sense paying through the nose for horses. Build swords, spears, pikes, catapults.

I didn't build a single worker. We will need some more soon, but our military situation and land grabs in the south took all the attention there, and the north was all about world wonders. We WILL get all three wonders we are building, all due on Charis's turn, and sure to kick off our Golden Age in there. It is from this that we will open our permanent tech lead, or so it should be, so get stingy with brokering from there on out. We SHOULD be able to build Sistine in Washington and Bach's in Boston, and the Golden Age will speed us to Education and Music Theory, and hurry along our Forbidden Palace, which has gotten a solid early start. (Helps a lot having cash to buy that courthouse. The early move to Monarchy was a real winner this time out, in light of our zero chance to get the Great Library, as normally to rushbuild the courthouse in a distant FP-city, you have to whip two or even three pop).

Considering just how many shields it takes to build middle age wonders, a Palace placeholder, pending Music Theory, would be the safest plan for Boston (just make sure it has enough military). Don't hesitate. Early civ gets the worm.

As for the two blights, and the southbound Romans, the scout might slow them another turn or three, just keep moving him into their way. What are they going to do about it? Nothing. :)

Referring back to my last post and the screenshot, New Bombay is in such a crap-jack location, it ought to be ignored. Build on the white dots, putting the squeeze on them, and we'll probably flip the thing (and eventually use it as a permanent size 6 city, for workers, settlers, or drafting). If it refuses to flip, raze it if you capture it in some war at some point.

Syracuse is in a good location, one of our dots. Unfortunately, that means less flip pressure on it. I just hope it stays at no culture and flips soon. Green Dot would be the place to settle to pressure Syracuse. Red Dot is likely going to be lost to the Romans. I urge Yellow Dot as the top priority, both for its own sake, and because it will force a layout that will put pressure on the Romans no matter where in the region they decide to plop down. The settler from St. Louis ought to be able to make it to Yellow Dot before the Romans, if the scout continues to run interference.

Alternatively, the settler at Seattle could be rushed. This might even be a good idea, with the Romans marching through, but keep in mind, if they can't grab land near us, they'll just keep going anyway, ending up eventually at the No Man's Land. Still, it better for us in terms of score and long term city potential, to found the cities ourselves instead of waiting for centuries for one to flip to us. I wish Charis good luck in sorting out what to do about this situation.

The knob to the west of Washington should be grabbed, too, eventually. The Romans have shown a total disinterest in the barren patch that is unclaimed between our two empires, so Charis need not rush to grab it. We can claim that dry baked location any time we please. Because of pressure on Hispalis, I look for it to flip to us before 500AD. Could be wrong, but that's my guess.

The Lighthouse is going to be built by the French. No one else is even attempting it. It's good that the French are building it in a strong city, and not some colony which would allow endless cascade effect to linger for 1000 years, and every civ on the map to start on it and drag it on and on. Halting the cascade was the other reason I suggested Atlanta when I did. (It helped a lot having played this sort of game and run into the kinds of problems we might face).


Lots of stuff to do in games like this. Even ten turns, there was a ton to write about. The turns are going to start taking longer soon. :)

- Sirian

Oh by the way... Carbon, your ten turns went by quickly because you only took five turns. Heh. I was looking at the math and realized that something was odd, as ten turns ought to end at 50AD, then 250AD, and then 10 years per game turn taking it to 350AD. I look back, add up the numbers, and see that you shortchanged yourself a bit there.

If I had realized before I played, I'd have sent it back to you for the other five, but too late now. If you like, you can play 15 next time you're up, or just go with it and write it off. :)

- Sirian

Not really sorry I ended when I did, I definitely would have flubbed up Baltimore and Pittsburgh. Especially Baltimore, whenever I play as the Americans, I always seem to have trouble when the city names get around to Baltimore, they always meet with ignominious ends during the medieval or ancient periods. The mere fact that sometimes I will have several Baltimores during my reign speaks volumes for the trouble that town inevitably experiences whenever I (re)build it.

During my turn, I wasn't taking notes like I usually do, and just assumed that the years counted by ten. There were at least three turns of anarchy before Monarchy kicked in, but I am pretty sure I played more than two turns after that. I'm almost positive I did, because Washington was 24 turns away from the Hanging Gardens after I micromanaged, and 17 turns away when I left. 3 turns of Anarchy + 7 turns off the Gardens should equal 10, unless Washington grew during my reign and the extra laborer shaved off a big block of turns.

At least the Romans had the courtesy to build Syracuse on King Roosevelt's turquoise dot. But those silly Indians didn't follow the plan! New Bombay needs to be one space to the south :mad:!

I should mention that I believe France's GL will go obsolete when THEY get Education, not when YOU get it. I believe this is how it works for any wonder that goes obsolete.

In this case it probably won't make much difference since they can't get Education until a second civ researches it, so it won't affect your expected tech lead.

No, wonders definitely go obsolete when any civ researches the applicable tech. It's always been that way, and if it weren't, then what? You could milk some of these wonders for much longer. The Great Library would be a guaranteed dozen techs, just delay researching Education. Some of these civs, in love with the Oracle, could avoid Theology forever and reap the benefits. No, it doesn't work that way. The poor French are destined for disappointment and heartbreak, as our education system dwarfs their piddly little library thingie. :satan:

- Sirian

It might work that way, anyhow...and holding off on researching education wouldn't necessarily help, since all it takes is 2 people to discover Education before the GL holder would get it, and therefore obsolete itself (and I know that people have reported receiving Education from the GL before).

Wow! I didn't need a donut for breakfast, that report was enough sustenance. :goodjob: :goodjob:

I'm up next if I have the order correct:

Sirian
Charis
Carbon
Schnarrd

Some questions and comments for the loquacious...

The first came when the Roman archer slipped past us, when Charis opted to found at Atlanta instead of Buffalo. That archer is why the Romans got to tech parity.

:eek: Ponders.... yes, that's correct. (To soothe, I remind self that they would get parity almost instantly whenever they happened to contact other civs, which is a certainty once they get their first ship going down south. Unless of course the archer got them map making...)

I'm seeing now, in other games, that denying others is as important (or more) than choosing "prime" locations. (eg fending off hordes of indian settlers in rbd5), and sealing a border to a landlocked backward civ is "up there" in priority. As I recall, my fear was that the Romans would declare war if I told them to "get out" -- I plan to replay that turn and see :P I was ready to let them walk 100 miles and meet other people if it meant we could play an expansion and building game instead of yet another early-despot-fight-your-neighbor game. *HAD* we gone to war with Rome, we would have won, and had all North, but India would have expanded almost up to Philly unchecked. Would be a very different game. Chicken? Perhaps ;p Thanks for pointing that out as the "source" of Rome catching up. Such hundred-year-later cause-and-effect post-analyses are very good. ("Ah!! That's why...")

I think your "Wonder" plan will help us prevent having to write a "Oh, you do realize we lost Sistine because..." post many years from now. Would you please clarify the details behind this thinking:


On the inherited turn, I established our last embassy, with the Greeks, and saw that they were just starting on the Great Wall. With just Currency to go until the Middle Ages, I realized that we had better build the Great Wall ourselves, or else the cascade is going to cost us Sistine Chapel. ... ... The Lighthouse is going to be built by the French. No one else is even attempting it. It's good that the French are building it in a strong city, and not some colony which would allow endless cascade effect to linger for 1000 years, and every civ on the map to start on it and drag it on and on. Halting the cascade was the other reason I suggested Atlanta when I did.

:confused: I know about the "Cascade" and can see some, but maybe the coffee isn't kicking in yet. How do you know when/how a cascade will end? Here, why the need for the Great Wall?

Good explanation on the Currency-Mono-Theology maneuver! :goodjob:


I'll bet a dollar to a donut that there's either rubber or coal over there, as they passed plenty of good jungle before landing where they did. The AI is KNOWN to beeline right to future sites of resources. (Ain't that just too convenient? Heh).

Didn't know that... that explains alot, why for example a disproportionate number of jungle resources I mystically find UNDER foreign cities. Nice of them to locate that for us ;p Syracuse is ours one day, with certainty. Hmm... I wonder if New Bombay is future home to resource too.

Baltimore founded! Yes! VICTORY! This has to be one of my greatest Civ3 accomplishments ever. (I kid you not). I felt like I'd been put through a torturous eye-popping brain-fuzing chess problem.

Woo, no doubt! I expected that site to be unattainable or very tricky to get. I'll have to replay first few years to see. I had a taste of this in rbd5, where I maneuvered India off Marseilles's future home, and was just thrilled to see their ship finally "turn south." Same principles but Baltimore looks even harder. :love:

> Denver has some overlap, but that's the best I could do.
Definitely a needed city in that spot. Did I mention how nice of a "hub" our FP site is now?! :)

> Not really sorry I ended when I did, I definitely would have flubbed up Baltimore and Pittsburgh.

Another excellent "Sleepy Gambit" ??

I'll play the game this eve... looking forward to it.
Charis

PS Hopefully I'll be :king: not :smoke:

Well, in an OCC game, I definately kept the GL until I got Education from it, and I also had the Hanging Gardens obsolete when *I* researched Steam Power, and I was not the tech leader at the time. It's theoretically possible that I might have researched it first, since I didn't check my opponents to see if they already had it, but I sincerely doubt it, as I had 2 scientific civs with dozens of cities going up against my one city for beakers, and they already got Nationalism for free and had shown themselves to be more than capable of out-researching me on previous techs.

In previous Civ games the tech leader spoiled the wonders, as you suggest. I'm not at all certain that that's how it works this time around, nor am I certain that this is necessarily a bad thing. So you can milk wonders longer if you choose -- what are you giving up in exchange? You restrict your own development by limiting your research options to avoid paths that will obsolete your wonder(s), and this may cause you to fall behind in the tech/production race relative to where you might have been with unrestricted research options. Not research Steam Power so you can hang on to the Hanging Gardens a little longer? I don't think so...

The only "game breaking" wonder that you generally really care when it goes obsolete is the GL, as you usually have alternatives by the time the others expire, and the GL (a) expires on its own anyway due to AI researching Education so you can't really avoid it, (b) you're giving up Universities and Banks, and access to Democracy plus a whole whack of other wonders if you delay researching Education, and (c) if you have the tech lead what do you need the GL for anyway? The only other one that springs to mind as valuable beyond the Middle Ages is the Colossus, and it expires near the end of the Industrial Age anyway, so you can't really delay it much.

I'll see if I can do another test and confirm that wonders expire when you research the relevant tech in Civ3, not when anybody researches it.

Zed: I look forward to your test results. :) If I'm mistaken about the way wonders go obsolete, I'll be happy to have that corrected. I can't recall any games I've played where I was both behind significantly in tech AND had ancient wonders that could go obsolete before I could reach the fore in the tech race. If I was that far behind, I couldn't get the wonders anyway. If I had the resources to get a wonder, I wouldn't be that far behind. Chicken and egg deal. :)

As for the plan I laid out, though, in this case it wouldn't matter. Our objective is scoring, and so we want to secure the happiness wonders ASAP, which means beelining to Music Theory. Even if the GL doesn't go obsolete, the fact of the lowered costs once other civs have the tech means they all stay in a clump anyway, just that France saves a little cash.

Charis: I'll answer your many questions here in a bit. :)

- Sirian

:eek: That's a lot of posting in what? Less than 12 hours?

Hmm. Interesting (and quite long!) post by Sirian. :goodjob: I'd never paid a whole lot of attention to the wonder cascade thing, but then I'm usually not in the position to get more than one ancient wonder in my Monarch games (by the time I'm out of the ancient age, I'm usually rolling over my enemies with huge stacks of knights, so no need for any wonders besides Sun Tzu :D ).

I think part of the reason that we were so slow building cities in the south was that I concentrated way too much on infrastructure my turn (no new settlers built, one started). :( I might be totally off base in saying that, but then again I might not, as expansion after the initial land grab tends to be a problem for me. That's probably why most of my games include early warfare - I'm out-expanded early and need more space.

For all that, looks like it all worked out (great job, Sirian, on the blockade tactics - with our weak military, I'm quite surprised no one has declared war, or at least demanded tribute).

Sometimes infrastructure can be the most important. Witness my turn in the Emperor game, in which I didn't build a single unit other than a settler. There has to be balance to win, at least to some degree, just that sometimes it's not best to keep perfect balance as you go, but to gambit toward some extreme for a while and rebalance later. Well, maybe your turn was the "later" in that regard, Schnarrd. :)

OK, on now to the bevy of quail (aka, Charis Questions).


(To soothe, I remind self that they would get parity almost instantly whenever they happened to contact other civs, which is a certainty once they get their first ship going down south. Unless of course the archer got them map making...)

To unsoothe, I remind that I brokered contact to the Russians for a tech and their World Map, probably worth 200ish gold, and found them on the doorstep of Japan. Another one to three turns delay would have meant us losing that trade benefit, and Japan getting it. Such a move is not a make or break, ever, but a collection of such moves can be important over time. Who's to say what might have been, but certainly even after the archer was past us, we could track the turns (at one move apiece) to guess how soon contact could be made, and then be sure to jump in there ahead. I know that's subtle, and it might be mishandled trying to stretch out the delay, but it could have been done.

How much we could have gotten is questionable, since most of the civs are riding fairly close to broke most of the time. Now THAT, you can use for soothing purposes. :p


I know about the "Cascade" and can see some, but maybe the coffee isn't kicking in yet. How do you know when/how a cascade will end? Here, why the need for the Great Wall?

Cascade is the rollover effect when the collective breakthrough speed outachieves the collective wonder-building speed, such that new techs with new wonders come available while earlier ones are still under construction by all. The AI's never prebuild with placeholders, but they get the same effect with cascade, as they all "prebuild" the Pyramids, one of them gets it, then they roll to others, etc. The worst cascade can come in the middle ages and eat every wonder right up to Newton/Smith. Unless you the player take steps to break the chain.

Sometimes pace of research means the Great Wall is built before middle ages arrive, sometimes not. By our civ breaking through early on the Monarchy line, and with all the goody hut tech we found (and others may have found), the ancient tech just went by really quickly here, and the cascade would have gone on forever if we hadn't set to building so many of the ancient wonders. That's easier to do in larger maps, though. Smaller maps, tech comes even faster, and there are fewer cities and less land, and less space between rivals, less safety, and we DID benefit somewhat from no barbarians, too.

I could see at the start of my turn that the middle ages would be reached SOON, yet only one civ on the Great Wall and they just started. That's a landlocked wonder any city can build. If we didn't grab it NOW, and in a hurry, it would not yet be built when Feusalism came online, and every civ on the planet would cascade to the 600 shield SunTzu and we'd lose control.

The Great Library, ironically, is the best way (especially on large maps) to SLOW the pace of research, since you can sit on zero tech, let the AI's research breakthroughs at first-civ cost, which takes them longer, and broker it to others at second-civ cost, which costs them more (or if no one can afford that, then more time spent while another researches same tech at second-civ cost). With all that time passing, wonders get built, cascade ends. Without prebuilding available to the AI's, advantage then conveys back to the player even though he needs more shields on Monarch+ for the same wonder. Then even once they all do start on SunTzu, they are behind, and if the player can build one or more wonders further up the tree before AI's get there, the cascade that might happen doesn't, as someone builds SunTzu, someone else gets Leo and Sistine, then it breaks again, leaving the player in control, especially if they have moved into the tech lead.

Now on Deity its another story entirely, but I haven't played much of that yet. (I have tried a bit, just to "see" -- pretty rough stuff).

Since the pace of research is often out of the hands of the player, the thing he can better control is going for more of the wonders. Make sure they get built by somebody before the tech rolls on. This can mean breaking cascade from the very outset by going for the Pyramids, or it can mean taking control at Great Wall/Gardens, which is less total shields and split among two cities compared to the mideival wonders at 600 per.

On Monarch, I have fairly well mastered this. On Emperor, the AI's are stronger, research goes faster for them and its tougher to break in. I DID do it in my very first Emperor game (still need to write that report) but post patch I am having a harder time getting into the tech lead earlyish. A lot depends on the map, too. Pangaea, or pangaea-ish maps of other sorts, puts the AIs in contact with one another, which GREATLY speeds the total research rate. Maps where contact is delayed into the middle ages for some civs see a slower rate of progress (look at Infantry game).

Besides, the Great Wall is barely more expensive than a Cathedral, DOES help with military matters in a scattered game of this sort (especially without horses, arrgh), and ancient wonders are often the backbone of the AI culture push. Depriving them invariably puts the player way ahead in culture, which matters even in a game where culture isn't a victory condition. It affects flips, AI attitudes toward the player, and more. (Might be interesting to try a low-culture or no-culture variant someday).

Walls generally do suck, but like artillery, I've found situations where they can be of great benefit (considering their cost is low and no maintenance). The AI civs DO think twice about attacking the civ who owns the Great Wall. It invariably means more losses, until the wall has been made obsolete.

It may even be possible for us to get not only Sistine and Bach, but also either Sun Tzu or Leo, and guess where: AT CHICAGO. Once the FP comes online, that place is going to be a powerhouse, and we could do any number of things with it. One option might be more wonders, while surrounding cities do the military and expansion tasks, and we postpone infrastructure a bit. The land, the cattle, hills, grass, flood plains, and on a river with a luxury... I spotted that as a great FP site the moment I laid eyes on it. :)


- Sirian

[This was emailed to Carbon before posting, when forums down...]


The people were wild with expansionist frenzy, and the masses had demanded
the building of a great "forbidden palace" in Chicago. The right wing party
came to power and Deacon Charis III ruled the nation. He had a nightmare in
which he saw Pittsburgh dissolve and New Bombay in its spot, and he was
thankful that Acolyte Yan had the wisdom to found Pittsburgh and that the
people responded with a call for a temple immediately. He notes that the
great nation of America had expanded and expanded well. Deacon sought to
finish the job, bring home several wonders, and overall... not screw up ;p

50 BC (0) - Deacon was pleased as punch that we were studying theology! He
was also glad to see a temple in place or in production in every last city!
The worker distribution within cities was checked and found impeccable.
Deacon thought he could retire, but his party reminded him to investigate
this so-called "Forbidden" Palace...

30 BC (1) - Deacon is very displeased at the Romans waltzing through the
Promised land, and he sends a prophet to tell them of his displeasure
(emboldened in part by admonitions to "take no guff" from the Romans)
Hanging Gardens finish, and Washington starts (what else) a Cathedral.
NY turns to a settler, as does Philly and St.Louis. San Fran finished
courthouse and starts a Barracks (a strong desire for all of Deacon's
frontline cities). Miami, finishing its Rax, starts a Swordsman. Buffalo
considers staying on a culture drive after its temple with a library, but
goes to slip in a settler first. The Hanging Gardens let us cut back luxury
a notch (and science up one, for a turn less.)

Starting FIVE Settlers on your first turn Deacon? I thought our expansion
drive was over. "No!! We must not let people who bask in darkness go
without the benefit of an American Temple at their doorstep! Go, go go!"
Indians and Japan start a Great Wall campaign, and the Russians the Colossus
(which is due in Atlanta at end of our reign.) With that he rushes the
Seattle settler, and a Swordsman in Houston.

What is your city strat, anyway, Deacon? All he would mumble was something
like "Green, Yellow, White, Red", which makes no sense. He also said
something like "Washington needs fresh fish!"

"The Romans are IN AWE of our culture." Deacon presses this advantage
while they are polite to, oh so politely, tell them to GET THEIR DANG
SETTLERS OUT OF OUR LAND OR FACE THE WRATH OF THE AGENTS OF THE ALMIGHTY,
if they so please. Caesar acknoledges his generals sometimes get out of
hand and he is simply delighted to withdraw them back to Hispalis.
Woo! They'll come back, but this time, not just the scout, but some friends
will block progress, until the colored dot settlers are in position to beat em!
I turn around and give him 5gp as a "no hard feelings" offering.

10 BC (2) - Hmmm... the settlers pull BACK, and do not return. Heading for
ships perhaps? Or tag teaming with mil units??? The people cheer this bold
move and plant lovely bushes in the palace. Washington lends St.Louis a
flood plain square since it's now size 12. Deacon decides the temple
in Pittsburgh is fitting, as the city is a divine gift, and he rushes it.

Noting success at this by other RBD players, Charis notes we're selling
no ROP's for our HUGE territory, and seeks out the far far away English,
Russians, Greek and Japanese. He bleeds Elizabeth utterly dry. Catherine
is stark raving mad, thinking we should pay HER top dollar for this
privelege. Just to see what she wants for republic, I ask, and she thinks
World Map, 650 gold *and* 26gpt is fair. Be careful, this girl is a lunatic,
even if impressed with our culture. Alex coughs up 2/3 of his small treasury,
and Gawa is somewhat deluded, not wishing to pay anything for RoP.

The millenium ends with the entire world at peace!!!

10 AD (3) - A quiet mid-turn, and Rome pulls it settler "out" of the "brown
zone" between us. (Guess they REALLY don't want it) Pittsburgh which will
be small for a whlie, starts walls.

30 AD (4) - NY finishes settler and starts Cathedral, as the Deacon considers
them unhappy folks. Atlanta cries out for a aqueduct, but is urged to
stick with Colossus just a few more turns.

50 AD (5) - Boston completes the Great Wall, and the unhappy people demand a
Cathedral. The Deacon of course hears their plea! Buffalo expands borders,
and the Green Dot settler arrives to found "Deacon Beacon" - a shining
light to the people of Syracuse! San Franciso starts a Swordsman,
although Cathedral, Harbor, and Great Lighthouse were considered. Miami
sticks with plan to be the Northern Barracks and starts another Spearman.
St. Louis finishes a Settler, and we note that much worker activity is
needed down South... so they start a worker.

70 AD (6) - Philly and Buffalo also start worker after their settler.
Pittsburgh (the expensive rushed temple) expands boundaries to now
include the cattle! :)

90 AD (7) - Nice and quiet turn, and the people meditate, thereby...

110 AD (8) - ... learning the joyful bliss of theology! Of course, the
Deacon knows that mind and spirit must be one, and encourages Education
to help the people! Deacon's settler reaches the fishing village near
Washington, to provide them with fresh fish daily. The name of the
new city is understood by no one, but there is a prophecy that great
machines will one day come in and out of the city... Dulles International.

Boston is unhappy, but making an entertainer does not increase the time
to build the cathedral, so luxury rate is maintained at 10%.

The Deacon has a vision... rather than 'merely' complete a cathedral
in Washington, he will embark on a wonderous project that will increase
the effectivenss of cathedrals thoughtout the nation, and encourage
the people to greater faith and happiness. Codenamed "Sistine", it is
due to arrive in a mere 22 turns!

Suddenly, and without reason, the people of New Orleans have a great
desire to plant a church in the nearby hills to the south. They shift
to Settler and rush him at a nominal cost.

130 AD (9) - "THAT'S IT!!!! You've left us bare, bare, bare! I can't
believe no one has just waltzed in to your unprotected cities! You
have one more season then we're ousting you from power!" Deacon Charis
notes that alas, this is true. He holds his culture in such high regard,
and thinks his neighbors do also, that he has forsaken a military
presence in the South (up North, the streetsmart people know better.)

Wow! Baltimore is size 4 already? That irrigated wheat is rockin' ;p
Deacon founds Cincinnati at yellow dot, and Dallas at white dot right
on New Bombay's city gate.

150 AD (10) - Deacon Charis surplussed for one turn for some extra gold for
some final maneuvers. A catapult and spearman appear and are repeated.
He founds "Laguardia" on red dot below Buffalo, East of New York, again
muttering something about machines with wings... A swarm of generals
surround Deacons office and complain about lack of security, but before
they do, a few final orders are carried out. Temple are rushed to completion
in Deacon Beacon and Dallas, our "pressure" cities, and Baltimore, so it
can start becoming a troop producer. Philly and rush their Spearmen. This
leaves a healthy 250 gold in the coffers. His last round of diplomacy
French spices for American wine (what a hoot) for only 20 gold. We confirm
everyone is still polite, and give each a shiny American Silver dollar as
a warm token of friendship!

As he's carried out of office he shouts "I've brought us to the very
brink of a Golden Age!!"

Coming up...
- Settler just arrived in white dot above New Bombay, ready to found.
- Colossus will finish at Atlanta next turn. This will trigger our Golden
Age since it's expansion-happy and the Pyramids were industrious-happy.
(Alas, Great Lighthouse has not been build, some may proceed there.)
- Our evangelist settler in the southwest will arrive at a forest, but
should go one more step onto the other forest square to be right next
to the cattle and to apply maximum pressure. Both squares are on the
coast. His worker friend is there to connect a road.
- There's now just one settler still in production, at Seattle. He
can be kept in reserve, used to add to a city like Pittsburgh, or
he can found a city between Detroit and New Delhi, or... board a boat
(made in Buffalo) and hop aboard for new lands.
- With the power of our Golden Age working for us, if we don't get
ambushed in first half of next turn, we can now consolidate in a mighty
way, and still crank on upcoming uberwonders. This reign was utterly
peaceful and all the foreign leaders have smiles.

Charis

Incidentally, I repeated my test in my OCC game, this time researching towards Hospital rather than Steam Power, and checking the AI scientific civs every so often, and guess what? One of them had Steam Power to trade, and I had not received any message about my Hanging Gardens going obsolete. So there you go... Wonders go obsolete when you get the relevant tech, not when it's first researched by any player.

As much as I like cathedrals, I'm starting to get really nervous about our lack of military in the south. This has been repeated by various other people and I know we already have at least one city pumping out spearmen, but I think that instead of our large cities building cathedrals (particularly Washington, for as Sirian said before, Washington produces 10 shields per turn, which yields perfect efficiency when building spearmen), they should be building military. I'm still rather amazed we haven't gotten into any wars yet, and some of our southern cities aren't defended at all. Might help with unrest down there, too.

The Cathedral in Boston could be switched to Palace placeholder for the next wonder. New York and Philly not cranking troops? Charis put the veto stamp to that plan. :)

The AI's are still busy expanding, just like us, and we do have some swords on hand. We should get defense into each city, and several units into any city with a luxury or resource within its 21 tile radius, but otherwise, we're OK for the moment. Anybody besides India or France declaring war would take simply ages to reach us in the south, and the north is set up to fend for itself pretty well by now. Rome has shown their lack of enthusiasm for attacking us. The Great Wall also helps deter. Some.

Still, I think Charis can be a bit free with spending the treasury, this ain't the first time he's spent it into bankruptcy on his turn. :) Just about every turn I took in RBD1, in fact, where I played after him, I came in looking at big RED numbers on the balance sheet. :)

Rushing the temples will probably pay off, though. I would have rushed some myself, except I wasn't SURE the cities were secure, and I'd hate like mad to rush and then be attacked and lose the investment. If the next leader goes light on infrastructure and heavy on barracks and military recruiting, we should reach a secure position before too long. Charis has filled in all the gaps in our land, or all but one, and it's time now to consolidate.

Russia, I think, has been the most uppity. I'm kind of surprised Cathy hasn't threatened us yet. Maybe some of the trades we have done with her have staved her off.

While I believe we must dedicate Boston and DC to wonders, we really DO need more military soon, so I agree with Schnarrd on the idea of bending most of the other inner cities to troops for a while. Carbon, good luck, and may your reign be peaceful.


- Sirian

I played 10 turns of LK8 once I got back from work...ugh, it took forever (mostly assigning workers), and the writeup took almost as long. No chance for a turn tonight, neither this one or Infantry. I CAN play tomorrow afternoon after 5:00 pm or so, no work then, but that's my next earliest opportunity. If whoever comes after me can play a turn before then, I'll be willing to swap order for this round (pending approval from above).

Schnarrd, if you're available, go ahead and take your turn now if you like. (You could implement your desire to fill the ranks of our military, and keep us all safe).

Whichever of you posts "got it, playing now" first is going next. That sound good to everybody? Excellent. :)

- Sirian

Will post sometime this afternoon. Looking forward to pumping out spearmen. :)

After the expansionistic and infrastructural madness of the former deacon, Charis, the people demanded a ruler who would look after the military well-being of America. Some demanded that the sons of Theodore "C" Roosevelt ascend the throne, while others shouted that the sons of Sirian would do a better job. But with the building of the Colossus and the ensuing age of great production and trade, a new movement took hold; a movement that demanded that a ruler fit to rule America during this great "golden age" be installed as monarch. They said that signs and prophecies foretold that someone with golden skin would be found in the fields of San Francisco, and that that person was the one to lead America to greatness. And lo and behold! One with golden skin was found in the fields of San Francisco ("Blasphemy!" some cried, but when asked to explain themselves, they weren't sure what they were talking about). The people of America were so impressed with the fulfillment of this prophecy that they installed the individual into office at once. And so the reign of Schnarrd the Golden began.

The beginning of Schnarrd's reign was marked by a great increase of men trained in the use of the spear. Nearly all of the interior of America was occupied with the task of training these men, with new divisions of spearmen being turned out every day. Some said that Schnarrd wanted to be sure that every city was defended with a division of spearmen. Other cities were occupied with the building of libraries and marketplaces to take advantage of the increased trade. In fact, because of all the libraries built under Schnarrd, the age of education began, resulting in the obselescence of the piddly little French library thing. :D Something called "Music Theory" was researched, and scholars believe that the research will be done in six turns. :eek: Schnarrd also ensured that despite all the money going into research efforts, the people would be happy through a trade for French furs for 80 cart-fulls of gold and American silks.

Towards the end of Schnarrd's reign, rumors started to abound that Schnarrd was not a real ruler, but simply a golden calf. :eek: None was able to substantiate these rumors as no one actually saw Schnarrd, but they still gathered steam until Schnarrd was forced to resign under the onslaught. After Schnarrd's resignation, some cried, "Because of our blasphemy, we will be unable to reach the Holy Land for forty years!" Yeah, sure. Whatever that means.

Well, a lot happened during my reign. Unfortunately, I don't have the exact turns that everything happened in because I got lost while recording the turn sequence. :rolleyes: Anyway, here are the most important points of my reign not covered above:

1. I forgot to switch to the palace in Boston :o (Boston ended up building spearmen, since they came out every turn). The cathedral being built there can be switched to a palace.

2. About halfway through my turn, I noticed that all the scientific civ's (France, Russia, and Greece) had monotheism as their free technology for the era. I therefore brokered monotheism for all I could get from the other civ's. From India I got all their gold, the Republic, and 7 gold per turn. From France, all their gold + 9 per turn. From Japan I got pennies plus 2 per turn. Edit: Forgot about the Romans! From them I got all their gold + 9 per turn.

3. The French completed the Lighthouse, and, towards the end of my reign, started Sun Tzu.

4. Saint Louis is doing the Size Seven gambit since it gets 10 shields per turn, so the next leader would be well advised to leave its production alone, since even when we have enough workers to make terrain improvements, the excess workers can be added to other cities' populations.

5. There is a settler in Baltimore that I wasn't sure what to do with.

6. Since we're 3 or 4 turns away from building Sistine, we might want to broker theology to everybody while it's still valuable. We can get Fuedalism and Sun Tzu from the French (yeah, they started Sun Tzu sooner than us, but with our massive golden age production rates, I still think we can beat them) and Construction from the Russians. I did not broker it myself, however, since I thought it was a decision best left to the group.

Good luck, Carbon Copy. :)

When the Golden Schnarrd-cow-person-thing resigned from office, emphatically avowing that he was "not a crook" (though, strangely, nobody had ever accused him of being one), genealogists and scholars pored over dank scrolls on the lineage of American nobility, trying to find the next rightful American heir. They never found him, instead they just pulled some gullible kid off the street, forged some documents and Gerald Carbon was tossed rather roughly onto the American throne and told to stay there and keep quiet.

As a ruler, King Carbon wasn't required to expend a lot of mental effort in running the state, most of his actions were simply to enact plans already made by his predecessors, and the rest were random civic improvements in various cities (a courthouse here, a marketplace there, a cathedral in the other one, etc).

The one important decision he was allowed by his advisors was what to do with the settler milling around Baltimore. It was obviously made for a purpose, but that purpose is now forgotten. Carbon looked over the old maps made by the first king, Theodore C. Roosevelt, and noticed that there had been no town founded on a dot lovingly drawn by King Roosevelt on one of his speculative maps. And there he sent that settling party, founding cleveland at the midpoint of his reign.

As he wasn't allowed outside, no new diplomacies were enacted during his reign, until his final days, when he managed to smuggle a Japanese diplomat past the guards and worked out a deal for the one of the many ivory sources present in southern America, earning a harsh talking-to from his counselors.

Here are the details of his 100 year reign:

0.) 300 AD
-City micromanagement: Denver and Detroit swapped some tiles so they both could grow. Boston changed to palace, swaps a flood plain for a mined hill, shaving 2 turns off the palace. Gave Harper's Ferry the irrigated wheat from New York, it grows 7 turns sooner.

1.) 310
-Indians request map swap, I deny.
-San Francisco finishes market, starts cathedral

2.) 320
-Seattle finishes barracks, starts making swordsmen

3.) 330
-Sistine Chapel completed in Washington, starts a spearman to fortify in its walls before starting with the buildings again.
-Houston finishes Library, starts courthouse
-Music Theory finished, Feudalism started
-Boston switches to JS Bach, 12 turns away

4.) 340
-Washington finishes spear, starts marketplace.

5.) 350
-Cleveland founded on the last dot of Theodore C. Roosevelt's map.

6.) 360
-Atlanta finishes market, starts courthouse, loves the President.

7.) 370
-Washington finishes marketplace, starts cathedral
-Detroit finishes its temple, starts Courthouse
-Harper's ferry finishes barracks, starts aqueduct.
-Dulles finishes temple, starts Harbor
-Feudalism discovered, Banking next
-Washington's cathedral switched to Sun Tzu

8.) 380
-Philly finishes marketplace, starts pikeman
-Seattle finishes swordsman, starts pikeman
-St. Louis finishes its eigth worker of my turn, people expand my palace.
-I notice that Pittsburg (a 1g/1s town) is building a library. I change it to a courthouse. Since courthouses cost the same as libraries, the next ruler has plenty of time to change the production back to the library if the situation improves once chicago finishes its forbidden palace.

9.) 390
-Miami finishes marketplace, it loves the prez, starts aqueduct.
-Indian settler pair seen walking on the mountains near the gap between New Orleans and Baltimore. I rush New Orlean's temple.
-India and Japan start Sun Tzu

10.) 400
-Indian settler pair turns back to India
-NY finishes cathedral, starts pike
-Houston finishes courthouse, starts marketplace
-New Orleans finishes its temple, starts aqueduct, palace expands again.
-Greeks start Sun Tzu
-I deal one of our ivories to Japan for their treasury (25g) + 9g/turn

Final notes:
-St. Louis built a worker every turn of my reign. I've sent most of them south, mostly on jungle duty. We still could use more, so just keep at it.
-Russia is moving a galley along our shores. they don't seem to be up to anything besides exploration.
-Detroit's borders will expand on the next turn, move city laborers around so it can pick up the irrigated elephant and continue to grow.
-Boston and Washington could switch wonders. Sun Tzu and JS Bach apparently have the same shield cost, so Sun Tzu could be built 10 turns earlier and Bach 10 turns later. I leave this up to the next ruler to decide, but I probably would switch, as most of the world is currently building Sun Tzu but don't have Theology yet.
-We are still in a Golden Age, but we probably will run out sometime soon.

Heh, I predict you guys have won already. All you have to do is keep building and hold on to what you've got (i.e. don't neglect military.) There ain't gonna be much of a struggle here unless you screw up or do something to make it more "interesting." :)

Well, this wasn't necessarily intended to be an exercise in "seat of the pants" victory. Just a chance to build a lot of cities and make them do things, and kind of, um, build a lot of cities and make them do stuff, plus building many many cities and filling them with activity. :lol: Oh yeah, and maybe get into some late-era modern situations, like dealing with nukes and trying out some of those "game-never-lasts-that-long" techs and units.

On the other hand, I do have something a little more iffy in mind, and am about to start RBD6. Jump in, Zed, if you are interested.

- Sirian

The Golden Age was over before my turn began. It just took our analysts a while to recognize the fact. This pushed back the finish dates on everything, from tech to wonders to FP to you name it, and disrupted the smooth worker factory at St. Louis.

Inherited Turn: swapped wonders as Carbon suggested. Unable to do much else until the analysts got their act together and I could see the real production in our cities. (Why the game has to lie to us about that for a turn, I'm not quite sure).

410AD: Syracuse joins the empire. Missionaries from Deacon Beacon hailed as heroes for their persistent proselytizing. All hail the great American culture! St. Louis set to max food (growing every other turn, should be size 10 or 11 by the end of my reign).

420AD: workers sorted out. Next priorities: connect roads in the southwest and bring irrigation to parched cities. Increase mining around New Orleans, in preparation for FP completion. Swap everybody in the south who was on courthouse to something else, as the FP's proximity will diminish courthouse priority in most nearby locations. San Fran worker sent to prepare road and irrigation for future site of Kansas City. DC worker set to irrigating Dulles desert. Bulk of workforce set to clear jungles around Buffalo, Laguardia, Philly and Syracuse. Buffalo set to train pikes, New York cranking some catapults.

430AD: Joan takes her luxuries and goes home. Well fooey on her, the stuck up zealot. We're not going to pay that exorbitant stamp tax!

440AD: Banking. Next up, Printing Press! (What is American Culture without the printing press! We simply MUST blab at one another endlessly, with "news", opinions, and "tabloids". How this translates into the world's most dominant culture, I'm not quite sure. Or maybe we're just the most verbose. ;) :lol: :rolleyes:

450AD: Forbidden Palace! (For some reason, it's called "Caesar's Palace", even though it's nowhere near Rome. Americans are a strange breed, I tell ya).

460AD: Americans establish themselves as the masters of the Art of War. "National Guard" barracks pop up all around the land overnight, offering state of the art training "in just one weekend a month and two weeks a year". Defense budget increased to retrain a number of spear units with the pike. International opinion was heard to grumble and gripe, and America has been labelled as "imperialists" for taking control of Syracuse and starting an arms race with all those high tech pike doo-hickeys, and barracks full of saber-rattling soldiers.

470AD: Kansas City founded. American border defenses boosted everywhere but Pittsburgh and Los Angeles. (The, um, Secretary of Defense is requesting additional units for these locations, and the King has promised "to look into it", but nothing much happened.

480AD: traded luxuries to Rome for gpt, which made them happy.

490AD: traded luxuries to India for gpt. Renegotiated with Joan, now trading her two luxuries for one plus 10gpt. Tried to get tech but we needed at least ONE of her luxuries and she was asking too much.

500AD: Printing Press discovered! AMERICANS BLAB AND BLAB AND BLAB AND BLAB, and now yearn for representative government. Entire nation bent to hammering out a new democratic Constitution (running at 100% science, with minor budget deficit thanks to recent trades). NO MORE TAXATION WITHOUT REPRESENTATION! Please give us... the US Congress! (We may later regret this yearning, but there you have it).

500AD, The Sequel: Phoenix founded in dusty southeast. Citizens beg for irrigation subsidies from Royal Government. Buffalo organized as new worker training center (may need regular attention, but should pump a worker each turn, conveniently ready to start in on jungle work). LA finished temple, starts walls. One surplus settler moves into Baltimore region. Save him for use during/after a war, whether ours or someone else's, to be ready to grab more land the moment an opening appears (ala Jaffa's Horsie Gambit in RBD1).


The State of the Union: the nation is secure and at peace. A few spots remain thin, and overall it would be a good idea to continue training new units here or there. We are light on infrastructure, and every city could stand to build a number of buildings, but Rome wasn't built in a day. The sooner we get to Democracy, the sooner we reduce corruption even further, increase revenues, and speed workers -- I urge 100% science and revolution asap, as this will only save money and time in the long run, and it will be quite a while before anyone else gets to Democracy if we hold the tech, as they have been researching the Engineering line.

Considering we have no horses, we are still rather poorly prepared for a major war. Maps of this size would see STACKS of archers and such moving on us. The best way to fend off such a force is a combined approach: strong defenders, and enough of them in the front line cities to hold out while reinforcements are sent, along with a force of bombardment units (catapults, etc) to wound the enemy as they approach. Wounded units will retreat without attacking us, or if they do attack, they die sooner. Our lack of horses means we lack mobility, which means we need more total units to be secure, since we can't shuffle them around as quickly to plug gaps and respond to threats. LA and Pitt need walls and more troops, for starters.

We have Sistine and (as yet) almost no Cathedrals. We can't drop everything, but our largest cities need to give strong consideration to building Cathedrals soonish. Once we have Democracy, we may want to go for Astronomy and build the Observatory in Chicago. The AI's will start on Leo soon, so after Boston finishes its Cathedral, it could go back onto Palace in hopes of stealing Leo, too. If we make the effort, we could get every wonder from here on out. Leo's not normally a high priority for me, but with this many units, and the high cost to upgrade from pike to musket, it would be worth it. More to the point, if we build Cope and Leo, that keeps the cascade from starting back up. Something to think about.

SunTzu was the big one we wanted. EXCELLENT job on the tech choices, Carbon. :goodjob: We're on our way to Democracy, but stopped just long enough to nab SunTzu and get access to pikes. We'll never go wanting for a barracks again, and getting them free in front line or captured cities is not to be underestimated for a non-Militaristic civ in a game with space race disabled. And yet, without horsies, we are looking at a long time ahead of us before we'll be in a position to wage a long-reaching offensive war. The good news: there's plenty of building to do. :)


- Sirian

Just curious. Didn't you catch the reference to the Ten Commandments? The worshipping of the golden calf while Moses was on Mount Sinai and the subsequent wandering of the desert for forty years?

Not at the time of night that I was preparing my writeup, I didn't. Don't worry, I didn't play under any "sleepy gambit" conditions, I just wrote under them.

Unless we're going on an offensive campaign, I don't think we necessarily need more units (although we could use more catapults), but instead we need to upgrade what we have. Once we have a modernized army, I don't think any AI's trying to wage war against us will be able to make much headway, especially if we have a few more catapults. Most of the AI's ignore upgrading, so our pikemen will be facing mostly archers and horsemen. Also, mass upgrading is much easier now that we have Sun Tzu, so unless we are going to get Leo, I suggest we upgrade soon and concentrate on infrastructure.

Forumus activaticus! (Pig latin for yay!)

Got it, will post turn this eve... (No games for like days, now 3 in one night i think)

Charis

With the building of the awe inspiring Sistine Chapel, the hearts of the
American people turned in one accord to the man they knew could lead them
to glory... Deacon Charis IV! He surveyed the situation quickly...

... we have Sun Tzu's but several barracks lying around in towns
... we have Sistine's but almost no Cathedrals
... we have good building capacity but are behind on techs to build them,
such as Copernicus, Newton, Smith's, and the culture rich Shakespeare's.
... we're due for Bach's and Democracy soon.
... our ranking by the historians has been on a march of DECREASE since
the last reign of the good Deacon Charis III.
... only ONE American city in the top five, with Washington as #1. (The pitiful
city of Orleans was #5, outranked by Paris, Athens and Kyoto). Some day...
Boston and Chicago would enter this elite list!!
... India and Japan were in Republics, everyone else in Monarchy

Sensitive to outcries of leaving the treasury in arrears, the Deacon set out
this turn to:
- Have a massive Library and Cathedral building campaign
- Take a close look at techs other civs have... get us BUILDING more wonders
- Keep enough miliatary to keep the status quo
- Help make Boston and Chicago special cities
- NOT upgrade ANY units until we see if we'll get Leo's or not. The AI's
count total unit *count* as military strength. This is insane but true,
one worker or warrior is counted identical to a Modern Armor or Mech Inf.
Plus we can update and any point if war is looming.

500 AD (0) - Sold ten barracks, redeploying officer candidates to Sun Tzu's.
We trade France the tech to shut down their Great Library (Education)
for Engineering and their small treasury, gpt, AND spices. We note few folks
have Theology yet, and no one printing press... The latter and some point
might be able to buy us astronomy or such.

510 AD (1) - A couple more cathedrals started.
520 AD (2) - Memphis expands borders, putting the squeeze on New Bombay.

530 AD (3) - New York starts a Univ - consider this a placeholder. Boston
starts palace as placeholder for next wonder.

540 AD (4) - Rome wants to see us, to trade territory map. They get a 1 gp
gift instead, and we note they know the secrets of Chivalry. (Stay in awe
of us know, keep away! ;p)

550 AD (5) - zzzz
560 AD (6) - New Bombay is proseletyzed by Deacon's Deacons!! They overthrow
their oppressors and join our just cause!
570 AD (7) - zzzz

580 AD (8) - We discover Democracy, and hold the switchover til Bach is complete
in 4 more turns. Next up: Free Artistry or Invention? If we can have

placeholder can likely buy Invention, while no one will have access to Artistry
for ages. French start Leo! Free Artistry will take us 6 turns burning cash
or 7, and Invention 5 more after that. Look at the diplo screens, France
is the ONLY country with Invention at the moment, and about everyone is so
poor that no brokering is likely to occur and they're all quite behind
(with Chivalry being the only one we're missing). We look who we can get
Chivalry from for luxuries instead of cash, to keep everyone broke ;p
Greek fits the bill, and will bankrupt themselves AND give 1 gpt and Chivalry
for our excess Ivory ;)

590 AD (9) - Like his ancestors, Deacon Charis is lauded for his efforts and
the temple is expanded.

600 AD (10) - Buffalo and Baltimore expand our borders. As a final tribute
to faith, the Deacon rushes Temples on the border cities of Cleveland
and Phoenix. The treasury is at a healthy 450 gold :P

Upcoming notes...
- WashDC finishes Bach's in 2 turns. Placehold with University for a bit.
Chicago is placeholding with colliseum due in 5, while Free Artistry
arrives in 4. When it arrives, start Chicago on Shakespeare's Theater.
No one will even research artistry before it finishes there.
Quickly research Invention at max rate (4 turns) and pop Boston onto that
(it's so ahead of France on shields we should get this.) Choose Astronomy
next. Put Chicago on a placeholder until Astronomy is done, then swap
Washington to Copernicus (and soonafter, Newton's) and Chicago to Shakespeare.
(DC is our max science output city). If we end up with Econ too, New York can
go for Adam Smith. WE OWN THE MEDIEVAL AGE WONDER CHAIN! :P
- If instead you want max culture in one city, put Shakespeare in Washington,
although other choices for science city may not be quite as strong.
- Would strongly suggest NOT brokering techs that lead to other starting
wonders, and would avoid paying hefty cash for ANYTHING. Other countries are
so poor they seem to have shut down their infernal tech sharing. Keep it
that way.
- Give in to threats from no one, it's far too close to parity and we could
switch production to pikes quickly enough to counter.

Good luck, (Carbon's up I think)
Charis

I probably wouldn't have played it like that (which is the point of these succession games, I guess). With cultural victory disabled and us running away with a lead on the upper tech branch, I probably would have held off on Free Artistry till after Astronomy, and possibly Economics, and we still would run away with Shakespeare. With our culture already relatively high in comparison to our neighbors (not saying much when we're standing next to those unwashed Roman troglodytes...), more culture piled on top isn't going to especially help us in the same tangible ways that Copernicus or Adam Smith will (and with France now on Education, they're one jump away from having Astronomy). So for that I say we go for max science in Washington, and maybe even write off whatever we've dropped into Free Artistry and start on Astronomy instead. I'll have to look at the save and wait on some more feedback, though, before I will commit to any sort of big decision like that.

And of course America is going to slip in relation to the other civs on the histograph. Russia, Japan, Greece, and maybe England still have No Man's Land left to settle, and it's still larger than our homeland (you'll notice that the score histogram closely tracks the power histogram more than the culture histogram, and a lot of power is based on cities and territory controlled).

Anyhow, I'm going to study the save file, and either add or retract some comments a bit later.

We really should be going for Copernicus or at least Leonardo first before attempting Shakespeare. I personally am not a fan of Leonardo and don't go out of my way to get it, but I do dearly love the combination of Newton and Copernicus, and we are losing that race to France. I checked the diplo window and what techs we had that the other civs didn't. Of our opponents only France had Education (because we gave it to them), so they are four techs short of STARTING Shakespeare (Banking, Printing Press, Democracy, Free Artistry). This will buy us at a minimum of 16 turns before they could possibly aquire the tech to start Shakespeare. Every other civ still needs Education, as well, so they are all five consecutive techs short of even attempting it. France is only ONE tech away from being able to start Copernicus, though. They already have Invention, so they must be researching something else, and that something else could be Astronomy. We still have enough research time and cash to switch gears to Astronomy, get that, then run to economics and get Adam Smith started (at which point we should have enough cash flowing to really bury the AIs in research), and still have plenty of time to buy up Invention and maybe/maybe-not steal Leonardo and STILL stroll away with Shakespeare. If we get enough banks we could use Wall Street as a placeholder once or twice before building it for real.

If we have to allow the AI to have medieval wonders, the ones we want them to get are Magellan, Leonardo, and Shakespeare (Shakespeare they probably won't get around to until we have already started the Industrial Age): The computer hardly ever upgrades its units, period, let alone often enough to make Leonardo in French hands a danger to us, Magellan is just shy of useless in a pangea map, and while Shakespeare is a nice culture wonder, by the time it becomes hotly contested we'll be building up towards Hoover Dam, Theory of Evolution, and Universal Suffrage, and the computer has never been accused of playing a very astute culture game to begin with (has anybody ever lost to an AI cultural victory?).

I would suggest that we research in the order: Astronomy->Economics->Free Artistry->path to Theory of Gravity. With astronomy in 5 turns, we can lock Copernicus, then throttle back science a notch and score Economics in 6 or 7 turns, and still have Free Artistry in about 20 turns.

Delaying the revolution is a mistake. We're not in ANY danger of losing the wonder, so what use waiting for it? It will still be there when the revolution ends, and we're bleeding cash and science in Monarchy, plus our workers are slower. (Why rush toward the tech at max science, and running a deficit, just to sit on it for four more turns?) Revolt asap!

The rest sounded agreeable.

Charis's plan with wonders would work, but may be bent toward getting Chicago onto the top 5 more than anything else ;) -- Carbon's plan sounds good, too. But remember, we're playing for score -- culture, space, and diplo are all disabled, so the only use we have for Shakespeare's is to have a night at the theater and marvel at our superior culture. I agree that Copernicus would be more vital, and in fact could be built at Chicago as easily as Washington -- both are palace cities, both on rivers to pick up extra trade. Making sure we get Leo (since we can, we should), would be my main request. Sort it out the way you think best, Carbon.

Oh yeah, and consider putting us back on 10% luxuries, or even 20%, to boost our score per turn, when the revolution ends, unless we have enough luxuries rolling in from trade to keep almost all our people happy anyway. I would have run some on my turn, but getting to Democracy asap seemed more urgent.

We have wiggle room at this point, so don't sweat any of it. Just don't give away our techs. I'm less concerned with getting the best value or even keeping the strongest lead, than I am with keeping the entire process as slow as we can get it. We can only slow it so much, but the more the better.

One final point: the sooner we get Navigation, the sooner we send swarms of settlers and troops across the ocean to found New America in the no mans land above England. I'd actually set this as a highish priority, but not at the cost of Leo.


- Sirian

In my sleepiness I did forget Cultural was disabled, so thinking was incorrectly swayed toward the 8 cult/turn wonder.

However... it's NOT an either-or! We have *3* cities capable of knocking out a wonder, and UNLIKE the AI, we get to start building them *before* we get the tech. The plan I gave essentially starts Washington, our desired Science city, on Copernicus immediately after Bach, it's just that the production order shows "University" until we research Astronomy. What might not be clear is just how FAST we can research things. Invention will take 4 turns, and Astronomy 6 to 8. Both together less time than it takes to build a University. So we can build Leo's and Copernicus without losing a single shield in speed.

So agreed, Free Artistry wasn't the top priority, but don't lose turns to switch away from it, as that would gain zero time actually building the wonders. And yes, NOW seems best time for revolution.

Charis

PS As for Chicago wanting top-5, it's hard (read "Impossible for Charis") to play a "Builder" game trying for pumping score without also not having DOMINANT top cities. In fact I'm wondering what can be done for poor New York or maybe San Fran :P Still, Chicago going for a high-culture wonder fits well game-wise. Also, note that our current high culture has already seen: two fairly quick flips, and enough pressure on a culture-bare Rome to make it docile as a lamb.

Waiting with baited breath to find out what Carbon the Revolutionary is going to decide. :)

You say you want a revolution?

Well, you know we'd all love to see the plan.

Turn 0 - 600 AD
-I delay on revolution no longer. The country goes into the most well-behaved anarchy I've ever seen, only St. Louis was rioting. City tiles all over reshuffled to prevent starvation.

1) 610 AD
-Rome moves a HUGE stack of settler pairs into our territory. Four in the vanguard, plus a few more settler pairs a turn behind. What the HELL do they think they are doing? They're definitely not invading, the AI never sends settlers WITH their invading forces, and Rome would be awfully optimistic if they think they can take any of our cities with a pike, two spears and an archer. I let them wander around for a bit longer while I'm still in Anarchy, trying to figure out what the hell they're doing. There's another mystery settler in Baltimore. As I don't see any unclaimed territory, I just fortify him for now and let someone else deal with him.

2) 620
-Nothing happens except Rome moving seven settler pairs in our territory. I see a settler pair on the Indian border heading south from one of their border towns.

3) 630
-Mob destroys the Library in St. Louis :mad:
-Rome is sending a THIRD wave of settlers south. What. The. Hell.

4) 640
-zzz

5) 650
-Greeks start Copernicus(!) :eek: I didn't expect them to hit Astronomy first.
-Russians start Copernicus(!!) :eek: :eek: We've got a real race on our hands but we're running as fast as we can in a different direction. Since we didn't come out this turn, I suppose this anarchy will last the full six turns :(

6) 660
-We come out of anarchy. -116 gold/turn, wtf? Oh, we're still running 100% science. I choke back to 70% and we still get Free Artistry in 3 turns, plus 57 gold per turn. :D
-French Start Copernicus (!!!) :eek: :eek: :eek:
-Since we're out of anarchy, I let the Romans know that they are not welcome in our territory. They teleport back to Rome, and I still have no clue what they were after.

At this point, I'm trying to see if I can get anyone to sell me Invention or Astronomy for something reasonable. When I try to get one of the three civs with Astronomy to trade, they always want Music Theory and Printing Press, or at least 600 gold. Music Theory? They still want Music Theory? Don't they know that Washington will finish JS Bach in two turns, rendering Music Theory worthless? No, they don't :mwaha:. So I broker Music Theory to all the civs with Education. I get:

-Astronomy from France
-World map, 21 gold/turn, 34 gold from Greece
-World map, 20 gold/turn from Russia
-15 gold/turn, 47 gold from India

I then take Chicago off of its colosseum and onto Copernicus. After switching tiles to get max shields, I come out at 17 turns till it finishes.

With the extra 56 gold/turn coming in, I decide to raise the luxury rate to 10% We love the President day celebrated in various cities.

7) 670
-Russians start J.S. Bach. They better hope they can pound it out on this turn, as it's coming to Washington in 680.

8) 680
-Washington finishes J.S. Bach. Cities with Cathedrals in them Love The President. University placeholder started
-Seattle finishes aqueduct, starts marketplace
-Buffalo worker factory continues to pound them out
-Democracy + Industrious is a very nice combo. Road segments on flat land are laid on the same turn, irrigation or mines take 2 workers or 2 turns. 1 worker can chop down a jungle square in 8 turns instead of 12, though stacks of 8 are much nicer.

9) 690
-Free Artistry finished, Invention next.
-Science goes back to 60% while still keeping us pegged at 4 turns.

10) 700
-Philly finishes library, starts cathedral
-Atlanta finishes cathedral, starts caravel
-Harper's Ferry finishes Library, starts harbor
-France takes away their spices again. They want two techs or 500+ gold for 20 more turns of it, so I just turn lux to 20% instead. Still making about 50 gold per turn
-As we've got a bulging treasury, I rush a few buildings. Saint Louis, the rowdiest town we have, gets a Cathedral, and Detroit gets a library so it can start on an aqueduct next turn. ~900 gold still left in the treasury

-Boston gets switched to Shakespeare. 4 turns. Leonardo will be available to us in 3 turns. Depending on what we want to do, Boston can finish any of those three wonders in four turns (or less? does Leonardo cost less than Copernicus?) France is building Copernicus in Paris, Russia is building it in some scrubby little town away from their palace, and Greece is building it in Sparta, which is mostly unimproved and still size 5. France is building Leonardo in Rheims, which is in more or less the same condition as Sparta or worse. Paris is definitely the most serious competition for Copernicus, but it seems to be built for lots of food rather than lots of shields (it has irrigated grasslands and very few mines). Right now, either Chicago or Boston should build Copernicus, Washington would finish it 6 turns later than Chicago and I'm not sure if we HAVE six turns to delay on it. So, the options are:

Boston: Shakespeare (4)
Chicago: Copernicus (13)
Washington: Leonardo (??)

This is how it is currently set up. We could also do:

Boston: Copernicus (4)
Chicago: Shakespeare (13)
Washington: Leonardo (??)

or

Boston: Copernicus (4)
Chicago: Leonardo (??)
Washington Shakespeare (19)

or

Boston: Leonardo (??, probably 4)
Chicago: Copernicus (13)
Washington: Shakespeare (19)

I still can't decide which of these should be built where, except that Washington would be too slow on Copernicus for my tastes. As we have over 900 gold in our treasury, we could possibly investigate Paris to resolve what needs to be done about Copernicus. If Paris is enough turns out, I would be happy seeing Copernicus in Washington and Shakespeare in Chicago, with Boston snitching Leonardo the turn after we get Invention. I shall leave that for Sirian to decide. Once we get Invention, we should press ahead for Adam Smith, then back to Navigation for ocean squares and Magellan, then onward to Theory of Gravity and we will have swept the entire Medieval wonder catalog.

Leo is 600 shields and it's been running the Longest. Copernicus is like an extra university, not bad, but a weak wonder for large maps (it is not multiplicative with libraries, etc, rather additive, which makes little sense and departs from previous civ games). The French have been building Leo since Charis's turn. Whichever of our cities will finish first should be on Leo. Even if we lose Cop (which I doubt). Leo will cut upgrade cost from Pike to Rifle from 100 gold to 50, saving 50 gold. Per Pike. And what about the rest of the upgrades we'll be making from now until 2050? It would even help upgrade tanks to armor. Boston should stay on Palace and snag Leo. Get Cop if we can, but if we lose it, accept Smith/Shake as runner up item. Just don't lose Leo.

A seaside town (Atlanta? San Fran? Buffalo?) should be slated for prebuilding Magellan. We could also get some minor towns with high food building some settlers and pikes in preparation for the exodus to New America and our new colonies north of England.

- Sirian


EDIT: one more note. There's no sense leaving cities in unrest during anarchy/revolution. As you found out, buildings can be lost to this, and it's not necessary. Go ahead and use entertainers, and max out food production otherwise (shields/trade useless during anarchy). If a city is BADLY strapped for food, put it one turn on and one turn off max food production, so that it never spends more than one turn at a time rioting, and time the last turn of the anarchy (you can TELL how long it will last, just hit F1 and talk to the Domestic advisor) so that the city is peaceful and orderly on that final turn... as the first turn out, I believe production DOES count.

St. Louis was starving already, having given up some of its flood plain squares so Washington wouldn't start starving. I figured I'd take a gamble on just riding out the disorder without losing buildings. I guess I lost.

As for the wonders...I don't think Rheims stands any sort of serious chance of buliding Leo versus Chicago or Boston or Washington even with a ten turn head start. It is just not developed. The real race, IMO is Copernicus between Paris and whichever town we decide to build Copernicus with. That said, I do think that the cities would be best served with Shakespeare and Copernicus in the palace towns and Leonardo in Boston. If we want to investigate the French towns to see how they're coming along, Paris and Rheims are two of the least expensive French cities to investigate, with a sum of less than 200, IIRC. I didn't spy on them, myself, but I was *sorely* tempted to.

Got it (I believe it's my turn, correct?).

It's no good having money if you don't use it, so the first thing I'm going to do is investigate Paris and Rheims, just to be on the safe side. Personally, I think the AI emphasizes growth and food too much (irrigates too many grasslands), so I don't think that either city is much of a threat, but with ~1000 gold, better safe than sorry.

Game just crashed. :mad: I was on my next-to-last turn, but looks like I'll have to do it all over. :( If only the game didn't have the autosave bug. It would make this so much easier.

That's why I recommend saving periodically in these things. Yes, the autosave OUGHT to be the solution to that, but for the moment it isn't. I'm sorry you have to redo so much. :( On a map this large, I'm saving every other turn by this point. At least this serves as a reminder to everyone. Maybe your pain can be someone else's gain, in preventing this from happening again.

- Sirian

After the term of Carbon the Revolutionary, the people of America wondered who to choose for their first democratically elected president. Inexperienced in the ways of democracy and perhaps fooled by the ill-conceived "bovine ballet" in which the only candidates were cows, they elect Schnarrd, whose platform was to make hay widely available for all. Consequently, most historians speculate that Schnarrd's presidency was run by advisors, but no one knows for certain.

0: Investigate Paris, which will complete Copernicus in 26 turns, and Rheims, which will complete Leonardo in 42 turns. Seeing this, I switch Boston to Copernicus, complete in 4 turns, Washington to Shakespeare, complete in 17 (I believe) turns, and Chicago to a Palace for Leonardo. I also lower the science rate, as increased science will not speed our research. Finally, I do a round of diplomatic negotiations:

India: Increased the price of wines to 14 per turn.
France: Changed the deal to two luxuries for two luxuries.
Greece: Increased the price of ROP to 2 per turn plus their treasury.
Japan: Increased ivory to 15 per turn.
Russia: Signed a straight ROP, as they were annoyed. This brought them up to polite.
Rome: Increased ivory to 8 per turn.

The new luxury from France also allowed me to lower the luxury rate.

1: Eager to fulfill his campaign promises, Schnarrd signs a bill to chop down the jungle around middle America, allowing grassland tiles to be worked and hay to be harvested from the grassland. To this end, bands of 3 workers per jungle tile set out to clear jungle, as they clear it in 3 turns and can then build a road and tile improvement in one turn.

2: Schnarrd takes a nap in the sun.

3: Tech discovered (forgot what we were working on :o ) Schnarrd dreams of colonizing the area above America (lots of hay grassland in that area :D ), and to this end sets the research goal to Navigation. Settlers and caravels started in various cities in preparation for colonization.

4: Copernicus built in Boston.

5: Flies buzz around Schnarrd's back end.

6: Nice turn for a nap.

7: Massive amounts of Roman settlers and pikemen infringe upon America's territory. Schnarrd tells them to buzz off, as their stench bothers the people of Kansas City. They do so, much to the relief of Kansas City. Navigation finished, research on Economics started. Atlanta starts Magellon.

8: Greek ivory increased to 9 per turn (they were paying us 1 per turn before :eek: ).

9: Ghandi requests a map trade. The trade is given at the price of 1 per turn plus their paltry treasury.

10: Zzzz.

Three caravels with settlers and pikemen are on their way to the No Man's Land above America. Also, tons of jungle has been chopped down (doesn't look like the same map!). Carbon is right; industrious plus democracy is a great combination.

Forgot the save. :rolleyes:

Looks like a good if not quiet turn, Schnaard.

The wonder shuffle should work out well, *but* if our foes had more capacity that might have lost Leo. Under those conditions, Boston for Leo was essential, and Copernicus for either Wash DC or Chicago. With their small sizes, I'm pretty sure we'll get Leo in Chicago. On the plus side, I think that flushed Paris' shields down the drain with no wonder to switch to (Rheims on Leo, and Paris on Copernicus when we built Copernicus) :lol:

Boston can crank out Smith's and still land Newton's when that becomes buildable (some 20-30 turns from now). That ONLY leaves Magellan. If we finish both those before they figure out Gravity, all wonder shields for all foes go down the toilet. I was glad to see Atlanta already on it! Thought for our next leader (Sirian) -- convert one or two irrigations to mines in the Atlanta radius. Our production there is medium, and it's very conceivable we could be beat, and beat by just a few turns. We could shave a half-dozen turns off time-to-Magellan doing that. That will be the last wonder 'in contention', I think every single one after that is ours if we want it. It's also good to see 4-5 turn tech discoveries running at only 60% :hammer:

Things are looking in stellar shape. :goodjob:

Charis

Inherited Turn: rearranged a few orders, nothing major. I am dismayed at how far the AI's have pushed into the English No Man's Land. Wow. Rabid bastids. No sense building any more settler parties, so I can any further ships/settlers. Also, at 50 workers (Buffalo been cranking one per turn ALL this time???) I shut down the worker training mill and swap that to Library. St. Louis also needs a library.

Click next turn, Cathy demands Printing Press, gets laughed at, declares war.

WE ARE AT WAR.

810AD: I pay Joan 18 gpt to fight the war for us. PLEASE NOTE, this commits us to a full 20 turns of war with Russia unless Joan blinks first and those two make peace. Should be a phony war for us, unless Russia sends ships. Not likely. Even so, I set in to start beefing our border garrisons, especially in the south. I'm none too thrilled about elephants moving around down there, either. If India went hostile with us, I believe we would lose cities. I'm looking forward to Leo, when we can upgrade everything to musket in one fell swoop, at half price. Won't happen on my watch, but so it goes. Baltimore switched to Smith. We start on Gunpowder.

820AD: With no Russians in range to attack, President Sirian continues to prosecute our War on Vegetation, swearing that every last corner of jungle shall be wiped out during his term in office. (Environmentalist wackos protest but are ignored -- who cares if a few thousand species are wiped out? Screw habitat, give us farmlands!)

830AD: My predecessor's devotion to mining is noted, then vetoed. Even aside from the particular objective of this scenerio (scoring high with population/territory), for which faster pop growth is more urgent than production, even in general it's good to be ABLE to grow quickly whenever you want. Most cities have 17-20 squares and only 12 pop, so one can easily afford to irrigate a few grasslands. They can come in handy. Some forests can also be planted in shieldless grasslands to get 2 shields out of the square, pending arrival of rails. A good mix of some of this and some of that (rather than all squares with 2 food and 1 or 2 shields) gives a micromanager like me enough toys to keep him from going nuts and heading to war for lack of something better to be doing. :) So begins the Great Irrigation Project in the jungle heartland.

840AD: Before I click next turn, I check science slider and note that I could reduce as far as 10% and still make the breakthrough. Well, hmmph, I know what that means. An AI has researched the tech and brokered it to all who can pay. I give Joan 1 gold for Gunpowder, then start on Chemistry. Every turn counts! I then go to upgrade a couple front line units to musket and discover that we have no saltpeter. Anywhere. The closest is on the far side of Rome, which we have no hope of getting hold of before it's too late. With no saltpeter and no horses, you can forget Military Tradition right now. We can research Steam and Nationalism first, and just blow past these resources soon. On the other hand, if we by ANY chance turn up no coal in our land, the nearest source will be targetted and acquired, on my next available turn if not sooner. I can stomach sitting around with no horses, or even no muskets, but no rails ain't happenin. Some nation or other will come due for extinction before that happens.

850AD: San Diego founded.

860AD: Greeks come THIS CLOSE to being selected for genocide as they settle Apolyton on the spot where our second colonial settler was heading. Those final bits of land are filling up fast, we'll be lucky just to get three spots on the far north end.

:die!:

900AD: Russians land right on my intended third colony site with a settler pair. Well screw them, I plop our city down right where we stand (sucky location with overlap, oh well). It seems we did NOT get three full city sites, but rather 2.7 -- and barely that. What a rip! Next time, the game needs to create the No Man's Land a wee bit closer to our starting location.

I removed some shields from Washington so that it would NOT finish the placeholder before Theory of Gravity comes online. Note that once it is swapped to Newton, it needs to be put back on break even food, higher shields. Also note, you MUST get ToG tech in four turns, after Physics. Any more, and DC will complete the placeholder instead.


OK, so here's the deal. The jungle is GONE. As promised. There's not a single fern or palm left standing anywhere. The worker army is moving south consuming all jobs in its path, should be done with all useful tasks soon and then standing around waiting for rails to be built. My Irrigation Project is also complete, and some forests have been planted that can be chopped down again once we get near or to Steam.

I trained 3 longbows (cranking one every other turn out of New York), and a bunch of catapults and pikes. Our military situation is much improved but still relegated to defensive posture. Russia destroyed one French Jungle Colony above Caeseraugusta, so those two are finally engaging, after spending 9 turns moving their troops toward one another. I don't expect much to happen, just wait another 11 turns, cancel the alliance, and make peace with Russia, even if they want a minor stipend in tribute. BUT... if they want tech or serious cash, tell them to blow it out their ear.

All spears should be upgraded to pike once Leo comes online. India has become the big tech rival, they could have paid IN FULL for techs at second-civ cost, but mostly in gpt, and if Russia bought them into alliance, we'd just have given tech away for free, so I declined to do any brokering. In a peaceful situation, I might have decided differently. On the up side, Russia and France are both in Monarchy (still? or went back to it? No idea). They could both be doomed, long term, as a result of this war, as the rest are just sitting back, sniffing for signs of weakness.

Our fourth ship/settler party is almost to the colonial land. There's a horsie southwest of San Diego, which we can grab while still avoiding dangerous cultural pressures with England if we settle in the square above it.

My main advice: build more troops. We don't the terrain types for oil, so I'm thinking we're going to have to wage a ground pounder campaign with key resources as objectives, at some point here. If nobody nearby has oil either, we may have to conquer Rome for their horses and saltpeter and be in for a whole lot of rugged warfare, the kind that democracies have trouble sustaining. Still too early to tell, but the resource layout does not look good. On the up side, with all that jungle we had, there OUGHT to be rubber and coal on hand. If not, I'm going to scream. :eek:


- Sirian

No saltpeter AND no horses? :mad: Well, IMHO the only reason for getting saltpeter is for cavalry, which are used as the attacking unti of choice for an incredibly long time (and are even useful in the modern era for mop-up, pillaging, and garrison), and we don't even have horses for cavalry. Good thing riflemen don't require saltpeter. :D

I've said this so many times, but I'm rather amazed that there hasn't been war already. Nice to have Joan fighting the war for us :goodjob: as even if Cathy was close enough to fight, we're in no shape for anything but a defensive war.

Also, I'm going to be out of town until late Sunday, so if my turn comes up in this game or benevolent, just skip me until the next turn. :(

IIRC, oil does show up on plains tiles, at least it has done so in the LK8 game, with two of our four oil sites occuring on plains (with one in desert and the fourth on a remote all-tundra island). Plains we have plenty of in the greater Chicagoland area, so hopefully we'll be lucky. On a side note, I've not bothered to check, are there any extensive desert or tundra areas in this map, period? This is a lot of jungle even considering the map parameters.

And yes, if we end up with no rubber or coal in our lands with all the jungle we claimed, I will not be a happy camper.

Got the post, will start now. (And afterwards, but on my Nanook of the North hat!)

Press the war-with-no-shots until they beg for mercy, ok!

Charis

At war! The Deacon was sadly disturbed to find this out. Who was it?
Soulless atheists who would persecute us merely for our divine favor?!
Ha! They would be shown the folly of attacking the righteous!
Our missionaries in the Eastern Colonies!? They've been sent with so little
provision and protection. May he who never sleeps watch over and protect them!
Glad to see them working on temples anyway. If not for charges of profligate
spending, he would accelerate their completion right away!

900 AD (0) - His advisors break into him before he starts a full-scale sermon,
and encourage the Deacon to review his notes and prepare to lead! He first
wants to know about the Wonders. Three in progress, with Leo due in two,
excellent! Atlanta vs Orleans, Madras and Corinth for Magellan. Dehli,
London, Rheims, Sparta will try to cascade from Leo but may have nothing
to go to, and Boston will take Smiths on his watch. Once we figure out
Gravity, Boston can do Newton's to match Copernicus. The city demographics
still shows Washington at top but with no other American cities, and Orleans
being the only non-capitol. He tosses out the idea of horse trading with
England but the prices are so high as to be laughable. Aha! There IS one
full ship left, settler, pikeman and a Holy Paladin! (Ok, a swordsmen)
Very good... let's roll! (Oh, one little change, switches St. Louis to
a Caravel, moves a worker in Boston to get some shields to finish that
ship in one turn. We MUST send aid to our missionaries! Send a few units
to St. Louis to board)

910 AD (1) - Land our settler as near the horses as we can and race for them.
Back in St.Louis, what do we put on board? Longbowmen? Swordsmen?
Nay, a worker! And a catapult. There is a plan... (Something about
plowshares into swords? I can't tell) Albequerque rushes its temple
to bring the wheat into its borders before our foe Portsmouth. San Diego,
in the new world, also rushes its Temple. There are plans for it...

920 AD (2) - We lose our furs and spices and Joan comes to see us. Well...
we don't need both, but like to encourage trade, so get her spices for
our wines (bleech), 3 gpt and 5 gold. Leo's completed in Chicago,
which starts a Marketplace. Cleveland in the deep south expands borders.
Physics arrive, ToG started and science pumped a notch to hit it in 4 turns
to snag Newton just in time.

930 AD (3) - The "caravel train" runs, shuttling our three heroes from one
to another to speed their arrival in San Diego.

940 AD (4) - Next 'shuttle' of train starts, Longbowman, Swordsmen and Worker.
The town of "Louisville Stables" if founded one square above the horses.
San Diego rushes a harbor! Now it's all clear... horses... harbor... workers...
we're going to scramble to get our OWN horses online! It's not cheap but
if you compare to asking price of horses from other civs, a bargain.

950 AD (5) - For several turns now, many cities on the homefront cranking out
Pikes and Cats a few bows... Tis good to see, thinks the military advisor.
A veteran galley came up aside us at end of last turn, to our LOADED shuttle
about to arrive, fortunately with no moves left to attack. We'll drop off
our men then invite it to 'come get some'! Our swordsmen exploring the
colonial territory left see an English settler, bah!

960 AD (6) - Not one Russian galley, but three! One attacks our just emptied
regular galley... and makes it a Vet! (Note if we survive but are hurt,
that rushed Harbor next door will help, especially if they try a blockade.
Smiths is completed at Boston, reducing our growing maintenance costs.
Deacon remembers to kick Washington off placeholder and will see it win
Newton. The settler ran AWAY from our swordsmen? Well, ok. Can we get a
settler there to that wheat/river in time? (BTW, with this potential
blockade against us, Magnetism is chosen for next tech) We go one galley
to galley battle, winning but dropping to 1 hp. It's toast.

The men of the USS Charis see the two veteran galley approaching from both
sides, already listing and taking on water. The men of war and of faith
turn to prayer... The "Comrade Vice" sails toward it, but miscalculates the
win and opens it side to attack. One, two, three shots fired from the USS Charis
miraculously hit! The galley is sunk, and our sailors are now elite! :hammer:
The other galley is now full of fear, knowing that they take on righteous
and brave men. They are no match for the injured but elite American ship,
and we are victorious! Some blockade THAT was!

970 AD (7) - A day of rest for the industrious nation. A look at the histograph
shows we're looking good, and wow are the Romans and English culture bereft!

980 AD (8) - Pikemen, Marketplaces, Banks, Libraries, Longbowmen...
"Can we Build it?!" "Yes we can!" :hammer:
Another Russian galley appears near San Diego? "Who wants some???!" The USS
Charis hurriedly tries to repair in dock for an attack next turn.
The wheat is now within Albequerque borders, mission accomplished with
the rushed temple.

990 AD (9) - The USS Charis is denied. (Because the fatestruck Russian
galley sinks itself on the American galley that just dropped off the worker,
longbowman and swordsman!) An(other) English settler shows up near the
wheat again, and the russian settler finally makes it down next to
Louisville. He wants the horses, hehe.

1000 AD (10) - Our Swordsmen had moved next to the English settler, and
he and spearman turned tail and went back to their town! Three more Russian
galleys are seen coming toward us. Come get some!! (We upgrade the caravels,
except the elite, as Magnetism arrives.) A Pikeman and Settler from Rome
stumble drunkenly across the border next to Houston. We ignore them. (Will
another silly 'wave' be coming or what?) Finally, rushed the temples in
Loiusville, Las Vegas and the spearman in Albequerque. Hmmm... not finally,
I just remember we want to do a mass upgrade from Spears to Pikes now
that Leo is online. Selecting one and Shift-U offers to update them all (19)
for 190 gold.

Just one turn left with France alliance. Our next leader can
determine if it's time for peace or not. A more daring plan (well, not
mutually exclusive) would be to plan a landing on Russian soil, found
or take over a harbor town on the coast, plunk down a settler next to
the Saltpeter, build roads, and hope we can get it connected home for ONE
turn. You can upgrade the entire army in that one turn, and if you START
building an item that takes a resource and it disappears, you get to finish
it. Alternately, target a limited war vs Rome and capture Lutetia, their
source of Saltpeter. Just in case someone wants to try, we've made ships
in Miami and Cincinnati and a settler in Syracuse, all on our EAST coast,
and Chicago at max 12 makes a Settler too)

Our next leader (Carbon iirc) will get to...
... squash the Russian settler next to our horses (although... if he runs
we'll need to get the road done and a Knight to chase him down ;p)
Move that Swordsman one square LEFT immediately to keep the settler
off the wheat!
... bring horses online throughout the land
... see Newton's University completed
... see Magellan completed (or lost) within 5 turns, in his reign
(This once again ends a mini-cascade)
... enter the Industrial age (Rails!)
... curse that Saltpeter is needed for Frigates and Privateers
... consider changing to/rushing a settler in San Diego if you want
to get that river/wheat spot left. Having the swordsmen on the
mined grassland between wheat and Leister has helped.
... re-fortify all those upgraded pikemen next turn
... move or park the two galleons with their moves left this turn
... not be worried by the Jumbos on our southern border, who have been
patrolling quietly and in small number for most of Deacon's reign
... avoid upgrading the USS Charis in dock at San Diego (eliteness is
lost in an upgrade, where veteranness is not.) Get us a Great Leader
against the incoming Russian fleet! :hammer:

Good luck!
Charis

PS Since Sirian is watching TV tonight and it's 3 am (gah!! not again!) I'll do rbd7ice tomorrow ;p

THE USS CHARIS! Heroic naval victory! :goodjob:

Just two comments:
1) We don't need saltpeter to upgrade our troops. We can upgrade them straight to rifles, and probably sooner than we could get hold of saltpeter. Without saltpeter, we lack for cavalry, but it might be better just to build knights for the moment and upgrade them later at our convenience. It would also be a really good idea to make a lot of vet pikes in a hurry, as we can pay on the cheap to upgrade them ALL much easier than we can wait and build that many rifles.
2) The AI's won't settle within 2 squares of any city, and won't settle within 3 squares of any player city on the axis. Thus, all those AI settlers are just going to roam around doing nothing in the colonial land. I wouldn't worry about them. Here's a diagram of the "ineligible" spots around a city. I think if you mentally project this onto the colonies you will see that the AI's consider the area "full" and won't crowd it any further.

- Sirian

As I've never produced one (and, in fact, the only time I even got to move one around was during those eternal three turns near the end of LK6, in which I boldy fortified Red Cloud in Salamanca), I wouldn't know the answer. If it's not possible, then I'd rather have a 4 hp galleon than a 5 hp caravel.

I'll play my turns in this one rather than LK8 this morning because a) it won't take as long, and b)it should be entirely more interesting (France is just burying all competition in the race for Alpha Centauri, leading the world in tech, culture, building/land infrastructure, production, quality and quantity of wonders, military, etc...it's well into the modern age while the AI is busy trying to chop down all their jungle and start their rail net).

But anyhow, expect this silly Russian business to be over with promptly, what a pointless war this was for either side, it is almost as inexplicable as Rome's repeated attempts to send enormous settling parties through our land when there's no land left to claim. [pimp]

Many interesting things happened during my turn. Enough so that I'll do the full turn-by-turn report.

0-1000 AD
-Milennium madness hits, Americans can no longer party like it's 999 :(
-I tell a Roman settler pair to bugger off. He does.

1-1010 AD
-New York finishes Longbow, starts Courthouse to switch to Knight
-Philly finishes University, does the same thing as New York
-Chicago finishes settler (??). I didn't notice this, or I would have changed it. I don't really want much to do with settling Russia, so I just have the settler join the town again. I switch production to a palace for the upcoming Theory of Evolution in a few techs.
-Seattle finishes University, starts cathedral
-Syracuse finishes settler, starts market. I rejoin this settler, too.
-I call up Joan and dissolve our alliance. No hard feelings on her part.
-I call up Catherine and discuss peace. Cathy gives me 1 gold per turn for a peace treaty. It's not much, but it was the principle of the thing that counts. She goes from furious to annoyed.
-MMOW, though there's not going to be much left for them to do until rails arrive

2-1020
-Boston finishes Bank, starts University
-We Love the President ended all around the country. I guess we lost those French furs again. Harper's Ferry riots, so I hire an entertainer
-Road to the horsies is connected :D
-NY & Philly switch to Knights
-I start moving workers to various cities along our major Boston-Chicago axis in anticipation of rails.

3-1030
-Houston finishes pike, starts cathedral
-road net is complete. Every square of America is covered in roads. I start moving large amounts of the workers, concentrating them in Chicago, Denver, Philly, Seattle, New York, and Washington, though there are a lot that probably won't make it far enough north in time to connect anything above Boston during my turn.

4-1040
-Joan wants us to ge back into war with the Russians. I decline.
-Harper's ferry finishes galleon, starts market (aside: the marketplace has to be one of my favorite city improvements if there are enough luxuries available. It creates happy faces, plus it boosts the gold output per turn)
-Metallurgy discovered, Industrial Age starts, Steam Power first on the queue. 9 turns by the current research rate, I up the rate to 70%, we're still making a profit, but it comes in 6 turns instead. Just long enough for me to have the first turn of rail building.
-The Great Wall is rendered obsolete, so people expand the palace :confused:

5-1050
-Newton's Completed in Washington. Washington starts University(!?)
-Magellan's finished in Atlanta. Atlanta starts harbor(?!). Are we playing for maximum irony with these wonders? At any rate, it doesn't matter because we just swept the Medieval Age from cover to cover :goodjob: :D :goodjob:

6-1060
-I use our east coast flotilla to explore the shroud still present between us and Russia. After busting all the fog in the area, I sell our world map to the world. I get about $150, plus I somehow wrangled 3g/turn from Russia. Most of the fog over the oceans has been lifted as a result, but I still have a boat doing fog-busting northwest of Russia, and every other turn or so we can resell our world map and get some money for it. After passing the maps all around, I come back to Russia and sell the map again for 20g. :mwaha:

7-1070
-Has Steam Power been researched yet?

8-1080
-zzz

9-1090
-I finally land a settler in New America, he is available to settle Charis's river + wheat site that I developed with the workers that were sent over.
-I change San Diego from pike to courthouse

10-1100
-Boston finishes university, starts colosseum
-St. Louis finishes bank, starts harbor
-New Orleans finishes bank, starts harbor. We now have enough banks to build Wall Street. :)
-Steam Power Researched, next on the queue is Nationalism
-We have ONE source of coal, 2 squares NE of Seattle. I was kinda hoping for more, but we can at least start rails now. And I do. I am trying to build a contiguous line from Boston to Chicago first, then connecting other cities as workers become available, and then starting to fill in city radii to increase production. Denver to Chicago and Washington to New York are already complete, many other cities will come online within one or two turns. Most of the cities should be online by the end of Sirian's turn, with the exceptions being the Roman border towns.

Summary:
-Being the peacenik and civil engineer at heart, I turned off most of our military production and bent us towards making buildings instead. I got us enough banks to build Wall Street, which we probably should do sometime soon. Exceptions were knights, which New York, Philly, plus one or two other cities are now producing. I am moving them north now, in the general vicinity of Houston.
-I started prebuilding Theory of Evolution in Chicago, the palace should be done in about 40 turns by current production, rails may lower this number significantly. If it looks like I started this too soon, then Chicago is an excellent site to build Wall Street, instead.
-Horses were connected, giving us access to knights. We also finished building every single Medieval wonder in the book.
-New America still needs infrastructure work badly. There is a settler ready to found a city by Charis's river + wheat in a turn or two, there are also about five workers in the area now. Vegas and whatever town is up there with it still need connecting to the roads.
-Franco-Russian fighting opened up a gap in the No Man's Land which was claimed almost instantly by India and Rome :mad:
-We only have one coal. Do we have to worry about it depleting?
-Nationalism comes in 6 turns. Which means riflemen come in 6 turns. Muskets? We don't need no stinkin' muskets! :soldier:

Overall sounds like a very productive turn, and one ending in a new era of peace (and a new era!) :goodjob:

A couple of small comments...

> I tell a Roman settler pair to bugger off. He does

Why?? :confused: There are no lands he can settle for hundreds of miles, and you provoke some anger in Rome. If your point is to "squelch" the Romans or set them back, let them wander for about 30 turns though the land, THEN tell them to get lost. That sets them back a long time in settling a colony.

> -Chicago finishes settler (??). I didn't notice this, or I would
> have changed it. I don't really want much to do with settling
> Russia, so I just have the settler join the town again.
> -Syracuse finishes settler, starts market. I rejoin this settler, too.

:confused: :sad: :cry:

First, in my closing remarks to the next leader, I explicitly mentioned these settlers coming due, ready if you wanted to go Russia, or in time to switch to something else if not.

Second, why rejoin settlers to max or large cities?? The colonies would have loved them for quicker growth, or even a nearby city like Los Angelos, or another with decent shields but low food/growth.

Well... no biggie, just a loss of shields. :p

There was no mention of hunting down and slaying the Russian settler near the colonies... did he escape or was he the first "Knight Snack?"

> The Great Wall is rendered obsolete, so people expand the palace

They expand the Palace because you entered the new era. They just finished other "announcements" first I think.

> -Newton's Completed in Washington. Washington starts University(!?)
> -Magellan's finished in Atlanta. Atlanta starts harbor(?!). Are we playing for maximum irony with these wonders?

:lol:

> -I change San Diego from pike to courthouse

Good move now that in peace.

> -We have ONE source of coal, 2 squares NE of Seattle. I was kinda hoping for more, but we can at least start rails now.

Phew! That's a relief. Having "just one" of a resource has never really bothered me. Now if one is in open territory, spare no expense to snag it NOW, but don't pick a fight over it, unless... you're specifically trying to DENY coal to a strong foe.

> We also finished building every single Medieval wonder in the book.

:hammer: :goodjob: :hammer: Woot!

Oh, as to the leader in naval battle question... duh, no! He shows up ON the square which wouldn't work in the ocean. No doubt it can't happen with air combat either. Too bad :P

Good job starting Rail Net... and good luck to our next Leader (Schnarrd?)

Charis

Peacenik at heart, perhaps, but the peace options are down and out in this game. It's all about score, and with our land filled up and all colonial lands grabbed, our further expansion must come by taking land from other civs.

To do that, we must have settlers, because there is zero doubt that some enemy cities are going to get burned down. Some because their culture rating (and danger of flip) is too high. Some because they are in undesirable locations. Some because of blitz overreach, with, uh, not enough garrison units on hand. So keep this in mind: the fewer units we have, the more enemy cities are GOING TO be burnt down.

If space race were an option, we'd already have this one in the bag and could mail it in. And in terms of winning on score, we are already ahead and could probably coast all the way to 2050, unless a particular AI conquers MORE THAN one neighbor.

Even in a peacenik scenerio, or one in which you are behind in the race, it's a good idea to have a settler or two on hand. The ones that you rejoined to the cities will just have to be rebuilt on a future turn. :smoke: :smoke:

More infrastructure never hurts, but prebuilding for ToE???? Are you kidding? :) The most urgent wonder on the entire map for this scenerio is Suffrage, because to war we are headed. It might be wise to wait until we have it, and some police stations too, before we completely set to aggression, as war weariness built up at this stage isn't going to go away. But the easy part of this game is just about complete, and we're going to have to fight some large/well-armed opponents to take over more territory. The easiest targets would probably be the closest ones, which means India or France... or possibly England. If we attacked England, we'd need a LOT of transports, but we'd get double bang for our buck on territory, as we'd get all those new colonies as well as their mainland, and that might ultimately represent our fastest route to acquiring the most territory. Or... Pick on the little guy first, meaning Rome. :) Then again, Russia and France are really at it now, and that could erupt into world war eventually, which might take the decision of whom to target out of our hands.

And it's still only 1100AD? We have hundreds of turns left to go.


- Sirian

About war:

We really weren't in any sort of shape to even engage Russia on my turn, no matter whether I built military or buildings. That will change beginning with the next leader, as we bypass muskets for rifles and our Knights can make their presence felt. I didn't want to anger the populace with a protracted phony war fought with wonky units, so I decided right from the start to just punt on this one and pick another of our own choosing later. Our war capabilities are much improved now: rails are springing up, allowing quick reinforcments. With Magellan we can move our ships faster if we need to travel by boat, and I think we now have ironclads available to build (or do those need saltpeter, too?). And if we secure saltpeter, those knights equal cavalry. As for the Russian settler? On the first turn, he turned back towards England and disappeared out of my sight radius, never to be seen again.

As for who we should fight, I think our aim should turn firstly to our hick neighbors, the Romans. They have saltpeter, they've got some more iron, they have a horse, their culture is rotten, and if we fight them, we can use our new rail net to its fullest effect. And if we knock them off the peninsula, then we effectively eliminate one of our borders.

On settlers and objectives:

-I thought I caught all the objectives, but I must have skimmed over the one concerning the settlers. My comp is not connected to a printer currently, so what notes I take are done by hand, before I start my turn, and there's no real way to summon up a web page via alt-tab to check due to resolution conflicts. I must have overlooked it. Anyhow, as for joining them in the colonies, what would be the point? The closest one to a palace, San Diego, is a career 1 gold/ 1 shield town until its courthouse is done (which will have to be rushed when the price becomes affordable). Food is the only thing that doesn't corrupt, and it's easier to grow the lower sizes than the higher ones.

Adding a settler before it's capable of producing above 1g/1s just means more time stalled at size 6 while waiting for improvements to be rushed. Growing from size 10 back to size 12, however, will take much longer for Chicago, especially when in wonder-building mode. Had I caught it, I would have dropped the settler in Chicago and built something else, but I missed it while I was too busy inspecting the city tiles :spank:...which were all very good, I don't remember switching any around. I agree that one of our cities or another should have a few coming out every few turns, I would submit that the city in question should be St. Louis, among others, owing to all the floodplains in its radius, the overlap with Washington, and the fact that the tiles it would lose from a drop in population would just be 2 food 2 gold sea squares.

On Industrial wonders and prebuilding:
-I completely forgot about Universal Suffrage. My attention span in single player games typically runs short somewhere in the late middle ages, the Industrial and Modern trees and wonders aren't half as familiar to me as the Ancient and Medieval ones. In any case, whatever we want to build, be it Wall St., ToE, or Suffrage, Chicago is building a palace for it. Switch to it when ready.

On Palace, expanding of the:
-I need a <sarcasm> tag. I prefer to think in my mind that the expansion of the palace is a direct and immediate result of the announcement that preceded it. It's more non-sequitor that way.

On coal:
-Coal is the toughest resource to pick out on the map just by looking around (I had to hunt around in the trade screen to even find ours, as we had mined the tile it sat on which further obscured it, IIRC), and I didn't want to investigate the cities of random civs to see if it showed up in their strategic resource box (and if they didn't posess steam power yet, would it even show up there?) All I know is that the only coal for leagues around that isn't under a city is two squares northeast of Seattle.

On the date:
-I think this is the earliest that I've ever laid a rail. We are way ahead on our technology curve versus the historical one, though the way the years count will make it seem like less by the end.

On building:
-I reccomend that we get at least a few more banks running in our core commerce-producing cities plus Wall Street before going on a serious war. The banks that got produced on my turn increased the gpt by about 10 per turn each, and if we get enough we can underwrite another lux bump or hire a lot more troops and still run in the black. And if not banks, at least make sure most if not all cities carry a marketplace. The extra happy faces and gpt for no upkeep (thanks to Adam Smith) is too good to not build.

You can find out what resources we have online, and how many, in the trade screen (F2). You can even point to the resources and see what city they are nearest. This doesn't help tracking down resources not yet connected, or in AI territory, but it would spare you the (apparent) visual search you conducted.

As for why we are so advanced, it's because of corruption. Or rather, the lack of corruption, because we got a Forbidden Palace online in a perfect location so early. Nothing, and I mean nothing makes the player stand out more over the AI's than the Forbidden Palace. It's one of the ways the player can "catch up" on Emperor/Deity, if there is an opportunity to build an FP early and bring a whole "second homeland" online. Do you have any idea how much trade and shields are NOT lost to corruption as a result of that forbidden palace in Chicago? The effect dwarfs any three other wonders we have.

Civ III can be an early warmonger game thanks to poprush, or certain ancient UU's, but otherwise it's a growth game. You quest to outgrow the AI's in various capacities, according to what your land and particular civ abilities allow, and the higher difficulty levels put you at a penalty. Despotic whip is one way to gain some of that ground back. If you go for ancient conquest and never let up the whipping, just whipping and whipping endlessly until you conquer all, that's one thing. Short of that, the FP is the biggest "ground gainer" in the game, and working it effectively can be the most choices you make in the entire game: where to build it, when, and how.

That's yet one more way the game rewards early warmongering: if you get some great leaders out of it, you can get literally thousands of free shields PLUS if you can use it to rush the FP early in an ideal location... well, the results usually look something like RBD2. :)


- Sirian

By the by, it's Schnarrd's turn here, and he's out until Sunday. But we're skipping him in RBD6 already. Unless you guys want me to press ahead, I'm content to wait for him in this one. This is a more laid back scenerio. :)

CC, if you want a quick and easy way to keep track of the previous turn's comments/strategy, just open up notepad and copy-paste the comments into that, for your alt-tabbing pleasure. Then you can safely shut down netscape and start up Civ and voila, no resolution conflicts. Much faster and more accurate than crib sheets.

Also, visual search is quite easy if you turn off all the cities/improvements (Ctrl-Shift-M) -- you can scan a lot of territory quickly and accurately that way even for unconnected resources. Keep your fingers handy on the keys so if you spot something interesting you can turn them back on and see whose borders it falls in.

The suspense is killing me watching you guys. I can just feel the tension rising in the world. All the civs are Packt Like Sardines In A Crushd Tin Box. The next couple turns should set the stage for an explosive midgame. Russia in particular looks to be an aggressive bully (big surprise). Cathrine is chomping at the bit to take more land.

From an outsiders point of view, I think you guys should take down Rome first. They are weak. You can easily take 4 cities in the first turn - maybe more. As was said, you will have one less border to worry about. Imagine if Russia got India and Rome to fight you...two fronts yikes. And India is no slouch. You may also get a leader out of the fighting which will benefit later wars. However, be aware of the Roman colony on the western edge of the middle "finger" of land jutting north. Those mountainous eastern Roman cities won't be terribly hard to hit. Afterall, just park some units on the mountains and attack away with decent defence bonuses. Actually, I would attack from two fronts. Attack at the border and then send a force via galleons to the eastern cities. It might not be hard to send a small mobile force to the Roman capital to pillage its roads also.

England would be a second choice. However, there you will have a distant war and have to worry about a large chunk of land falling under attack with support from the homeland far away. Plus you would have to defend your colonies, which can be difficult.

Just my $0.02.

Where are the screenshots??? It's so hard to follow without seeing some idea of the map.

Arathorn

P.S. I'm jealous you guys have time to do all these games...

Arathorn, Madhatter, thanks for your input! :hammer:

Below is a screenshot from 1100 showing the homeland, from
Washington to Chicago. Another screen in next msg.

I'm leaning to Rome myself. Main reason is that if we go offshore it will take a huge effort, and if in the MIDDLE of that Rome and or India turns on us, ugh... (I seem to be the only one who likes Saltpeter too, which the Romans have ;p) A war with anyone besides Rome jeapordizes the colonies, methinks.

Charis

The colonies, as of 1000 AD...

San Diego harbor on coast, Louisville at horses, Albequerque up top and Las Vegas in the middle. That 'open' area with wheat and river is our next/last spot to grab.

Thanks, Charis! Man, you are *FAST*! (Quite a typo there that I almost missed, but since I have no idea of your weight, I'm glad I fixed it....)

I would have to agree with madhatter that Rome has to go. It looks like war is inevitable. It's gonna be Rome or India (or both, but that's not exactly a voluntary option). Since you're going for points (score), speed is important. You can crush Rome fast (I would hope, especially if you take their saltpeter quickly) and can do so with little fear of cultural reversions. It's not to far from Washington that all the new cities will be tragic immediately, which is also a plus.

India will probably be a tougher nut to crack and should wait until you at least have a good set of resources (saltpeter for cavalry and/or back-up coal or SOMETHING) and maybe some help. India will definitely have to go, too, no?

After that, well....

Of course, I'm not even playing this game, so what do I know?

Arathorn

Hi, all. I came to read this thread (and the other RBD threads) through Sirian's website. I've been lurking on forums following his strategy and story posts since the late, lamented Lurker Lounge, as well as reading his D2 and D2X stories and wild variants. I'm glad to see the energy that created such interesting games getting put to use by Sirian and the rest of the variant crew in such a wonderful (and completely different!) game as this. Keep up the excellent work, I await each new part of your stories with much eagerness. :D

Glad you found your way over here. :) Hope you enjoy the tales. Maybe some point you'll hop in and join us.

- Sirian

Look's like you guys waited for me. :D I think Rome is going to go soon, if not on my turn - as stated by Charis (I think), the conflict between Russia and France will probably pull everyone into a world war. With a rail net, Rome should fall quickly, and I'm reluctant to wage war on advanced opponents close to the industrial age without cavalry. Anyway, got it, but I might not get to the game until tomorrow aftenoon. We'll see.

After the term of Charis, the citizens of the great country of America set their sights on who to choose for their next president. Through some quirk of history (and perhaps some quirk of voting fraud), they chose Schlay. Schlay had made his fortune on the company Railron, which transported beef on the still-infant rail system. At first, Schlay was not pleased to be elected president, but once he thought about the benefits, he was ecstatic. His plan was to use his presidential influence (and bribery if it came to it) to produce a massive expansion of the rail system. Also, since Schlay was one of the only investors in the rail system, he would get the lion’s share of the profits. The plan was set into action and went exactly as planned. However, towards the end of Schlay’s term, rumors started circulating that Railron was involved in extreme accounting fraud, and Schlay went down amidst a stream of controversy.

Well, as well as implementing the rail system I had one other major decision that I made. On the inherited turn, Cathy demanded Printing Press. I, of course, refused (actually, I gagged on her stench, which Cathy rightly took as a refusal) and Cathy declared war. This was where the decision came. On turn one I renegotiated all of our treaties (I’m not sure if anybody but me pays attention to them!) when I came to Japan. I realized that they share a large border with Russia, and out of curiosity, asked what I would have to pay for an alliance. They asked for just ivory! I renegotiated it to ivory for an alliance plus 23 per turn. Although I did not like the idea of locking us into the conflict for twenty turns, but since industrialization is discovered soon (and universal suffrage with it) plus the fact that with Japan in the war, most of the major powers are in conflict, I made the deal (I hope this was not a product of pungent weed!). I tried to pull Greece into the war also and get another alliance with France, but both would only take the alliance for technology. I have no idea why France would not take a straight alliance (they were already at war with Russia!), but so it goes. At the end of my turn, France, Japan, and America are all at war with Russia. Some other things of note are that we are only receiving three luxuries at the moment – France tried to renegotiate our luxury trade and wanted too much for their luxuries. Also, we are one turn to industrialization, and all our major cities are on placeholders for factories (except for Boston, which had already produced all its city improvements and was cranking out a knight every other turn for most of my turn). This brings me to my last point: there are around 15 to 17 knights near our border with Rome. We are no longer selling luxuries to them (the most they were willing to pay is 12 per turn, a ridiculous amount when we are getting more than twice that from other civs), and soon we will have sufficient force to attack them. Let’s get that saltpeter!

PS: Sorry for the delay in getting this sent; I meant to play yesterday, but I fell asleep while playing – talk about an exhausting weekend!

Just a point of order regarding alliances: it would not be in our interest for any single opponent to get overwhelmed, as their lands would just be carved up, and mostly by those closest to them. This makes everyone else stronger. That's why I only invited France to fight last time. I didn't want to punish Russia or see them weakened too far, just keep them busy a bit.

Now it may be good that all these civs are at war, as it may get ALL of them out of stronger governments. But on my original builder game, I overdid the alliances and the next thing I knew, the aggressive civ was killed off and I didn't get any of the spoils (at least not until later). I don't think we need to be scared of Russia. Let's just hope they don't get run over too quickly.

What the AI's do is send ALL of their spare units on a beeline to attack their enemies. While the Russian army is off fighting opponent A, opponent B may have a free run at their lightly defended cities, and once the production gets eat into, a civ can collapse pretty quickly. (You KNOW what kind of bonehead counterattacks they do vs players, it's the same vs one another, which is why so many civs die off when they start at it).

Ideally, I would think that an evenly matched war that drags on and on AND ON would suit us best, as war weariness climbs and the AI's develop more deep running hatreds for each other.


- Sirian

Ok, you caught me. I almost never renegotiate. Would you (or anyone) care to discuss that aspect of the game some?

What to look for that suggests it needs reneg, what effect it has on attitude, etc. In other posts I keep hearing about asking for weak cities when you renegotiate peace. I thought "Renegotiate peace???" They were using that for some hairball city-defender exploit which I have no care for, but the idea you could have them give you a city to keep the peace is... uh... interesting (?)

In no game where I've tried it has a country *EVER* given in to a straight demand for any item whatsoever -- is that just a "tick them off" button with no other function? Is the 'correct' way to seek tribute to renegotiate peace?

On the war with the Russians... heh, I knew they were not through. Arrogant as all get out though, they have no means whatsoever to think they can fight us, especially in *addition* to their other battles. With that kind of alliance against them, we might be seeing the end of Russia. Speaking of spoils... are there any colony cities they have that we need to annex? Also, since we're at war for 20 turns anyway... I'ld be tempted to go plop a city right smack on top of their saltpeter.

If you have the Knights, Rome is sure looking tasty :P
Sirian, any comments, builder-theme-wise about the wisdom/folly of finishing off the Romans? Or do you plan to let them be as quiet vassal? Score-wise, controlling their land as early as possible is best.

If I were Russia, I would give my eyetooth to pull India into an alliance with me. If I were India I would say "no way" ;p

Charis

The Great House of Charis has been noted to say:

On the war with the Russians... Arrogant as all get out though, they have no means whatsoever to think they can fight us.

I concur. I've had about enough of her lip. :lol:


1200AD, Scene: President Caesar's office, Rome. In walks the American Secretary of Defense. He and Caesar shake hands. Caesar nods to the burly Roman Legionaries on guard, and they exit the room, leaving the two men alone together. Caesar gestures for the American to have a seat.

"So... you've come to formally declare war? My reports say that your troops are massed at Kansas City. You'll not find Rome an easy opponent, you know. We--"

"Mr. President, if I may be so bold." The American tosses a sealed letter onto the desk.

Caesar breaks the wax seal, unfolds the single page letter from the new American president, Sirian. His brows rise as he reads. Then he sits back, idly flicking the edge of the letter as he stares into the American's eyes. "Why?"

"Mr. President, we don't like being threatened. Threatening the United States is a distinctly BAD idea."

Caesar sits back, contemplates for several minutes in silence, during which the American Secretary waits in perfect stillness. Then Caesar draws a quill from his inkwell, scawls his name onto the letter, and hands it back. The men both stand and shake hands. "Very well. You've got yourself a deal."


1200AD, London: Queen Elizabeth's Tea Room. Her Majesty, along with the English Prime Minister, sit with the American Secretary of State, sipping some Earl Grey. On the table sits a number of finely carved statuettes made of American ivory. "Simply mahvelous, Darling," says the Queen. "You've got yourself a deal."


1200AD, Paris: the Queen's private dining room. President Sirian grins as he munches on some Escargot. "Joanie, my dear. Will you show me your fur? I simply must have more of your sweet spice!"

Queen Joan d'Arc grins back and wags her finger. "Baudy humor from a stuck up American?" She laughs lightly. "For your support in our noble fight, I'll show you anything you want, Sirian."

"Anything?"

"Oui. Ah... if the price is right." :groucho:


1200AD, Ports of Cincinnatti and Miami. American soldiers set sail.

"His Truth is Marching On." :soldier:


So who is this brassy President Sirian? Dr. Sirian, actually. Son of an indistrial inventor and entrepreneur, he is a physician of the first order, and won election on four promises: to strengthen the economy like it's never been strong before, to empower all adult American citizens with the right to vote, to clean up our cities and improve health care for all, and to defend the nation against the aggressions of Russia.

1200AD: Offer Caesar Right of Passage and Mutual Protection Pact for secrets of Military Tradition and a small stipend. Offer Liz ivory at market value. Offer Joanie Alliance vs Russia, Mutual Protection Pact, Right of Passage and 50-something gpt for Furs and Spices. Luxury Taxes dropped to zero, virtually every American Citizen is now gushing with joy. Four veteran riflemen set sail from Cincinnatti.

1210AD: Industrialization. :lol:

1210AD: Factories under construction all across America. All defenders in the colonies, and all defensive units along the border with India, are upgraded to Riflemen. The treasury is officially kaput. Dr. Sirian redirects the national priority to health care and the study of Medicine. 10 knights and 2 more riflemen set sail from Miami.

1220AD: The city of Phoenix reaches size 7, and thus begins its permanent duty as a training ground for American soldiers. One unit of riflemen are drafted.

1230AD: Phoenix drafted again. First American factories are coming online. Rail network now complete in America's top seven cities.

1240AD: Phoenix. Rails completed in the Phoenix area, and shared tiles reshuffled to return all but one borrowed tile to the "Real Cities" in the area, Baltimore and New Orleans. Phoenix is now self-sufficent and full packaged, awaiting only its Bach-inspired cathedral (six content faces) next turn to overrule all the endless unhappiness that perpetual drafting would cause. Oh and by the way, sixteen American units land on Russian soil.

1250AD: The Russians in Vitebsk, defended only by spearmen, DRAFT a unit of riflemen :eek: dropping the city from size 7 to size 6. They also rushbuild a cossack (poprush under monarchy is cash based, so no whipping was done). Americans attack, capture Vitebsk and three workers, losing one knight in the process.

Note to Catherine: You don't declare war on America. That's just NOT a good idea. OK? OK then.

1250AD: Phoenix completes Cathedral, which is immediately filled with wives and children praying for their conscripted soldiers. Polls show confidence in President Sirian still riding high after the glorious American victory at Vitebsk. DC completes its factory, starts construction of a stock exchange. Medicine discovered, and it appears that DIRT is the cause of most disease! Dr. Sirian orders research into sanitation. A unit of riflemen is drafted from New Bombay.

1255: New Bombay again, and also (of course) Phoenix. Seven units of conscript riflemen, two catapults, five knights, and two veteran riflemen units, board American galleons at Miami, bound for Russia and Phase Two. Joanie's forces arrive at Vitebsk from the south (Ha! Told her I'd beat her there ;) That was right before we stopped talking and got down to more serious communications :groucho: ). The French valliantly shield American forces from the Russian counterattack. Not a single Russian unit makes it through. Go Joanie! :queen:

1260: Phoenix and New Bombay. (Start chanting this mantra). American forces cheer as, across the river from Vitebsk, French and Russian forces grind one another into the earth. Temple rushbuilt at Vitebsk. Joanie entices Ghandi, India declares war on Russia, in alliance with France.

1265: Phoenix and New Bombay. Joanie suffers some defeats. Like, ouch, that's a lot of knights dying off. If Russia is gettin any, it's out of visual range of American spectators in Vitebsk. Road through the forest west of Vitebsk completed by our (Russian and French) workers.

1270: Phoenix and New Bombay. New Bombay completes its Cathedral, just in time to avoid some major mojo unhappiness from all the drafting. Shared tiles now rearranged to give this former Indian city its minimum necessary to feed a size 7, and the rest given back to the larger American cities next door. Indian Americans at New Bombay are now in competition with Phoenix to see whose soldiers are the most elite, the most brave, the most skilled. All eleven units of American knights in Russia mobilize along the newly constructed road, heading toward Kuibyshev. Walls rushbuilt at Vitebsk. Joanie moves more knights into the area, a whole fresh batch. Russians are beaten back. First American Ironclad rolls off the assembly line in Buffalo, sets sail to protect the American fleet.

1275AD: OMG! Joanie captured a Russian town! Russia manages to sneak one unit of conscript rifles past Joanie and across the Vitebsk River, marching them up to the city gates, but Americans hold their fire "waiting until you can see the whites of their eyes". Joanie's forces go into a rage and throw everything they have at this unit, losing TWO knights and then attacking with a knight that had just one hit point left! AND IT WINS! She is just determined to prove her valor, I tell you! Universal Suffrage achieved in America! Railroad net completed. (Yes, completed. All of it. Well... at least on the mainland). First American Coal Plant goes online in Boston, which can now crank almost 80 shields per turn. (Enough to build knights in one turn? Possibly, didn't check.) Russians, defending by pikes, draft a unit of riflemen at Kui, dropping that city to size 6 also. American attack at Kuibyshev succeeds! Two knights lost in the combat. Victory comes just in time to open the docks to American ships, which bring 16 units of reinforcements into the garrison.

Having achieved his Four Goals, President Sirian retires from office with an incredible 88% approval rating. He was last seen sipping champaigne with Queen Joanie on the French Riviera. :love2: The tabloids are just going wild with the rumors, enamored as they are with French and Indian royalty.

Oh, and by the way... Phoenix and New Bombay. :)

Bless you, whoever built those other three ships on our east coast (after I built the first one).


So why did I promise Rome 20 turns of peace? That's simple, for two reasons.

1) For all that we had, we did not have the kind of force to take more than a couple of cities. We could have continued to build more horsies, but... that would mean delaying factories. I was NOT going to do that. No way, no how. So... it came down to a choice of attacking a couple of Roman cities, then suing for peace, or... go make Cathy pay for her insolence.

2) It's a better strategy anyway. Think of this scenerio. You build two settlers half a dozen rounds apart. You want to settle two city locations, one six squares further away. Your rivals have an interest in the area, too. So what do you do? You can either settle the closer spot first, thus ensuring a strong position there, but possibly losing the second position altogether, or at least being MUCH weaker on the frontier. Or... you can bypass the easy option to stretch your reach as far as you can do so while still being strong enough to make it stick. That's really the key: a gambit is only a gambit when there's significant risk involved.

With four galleons, I could move 16 troops. With 15 knights on hand, I could take 10 of them and be sure to win at least ONE city, which six vet rifles parked ought to be able to hold out long enough for reinforcements no matter how bad bad gets. And if not needed, the reinforcement could take a second city.

Rome is not a "second front" unless and until we choose for it to be. They aren't going to attack us unless we dis them. Once we have tanks, we can literally roll over them in a few turns anyway. Besides, Russia is where the action's at. The other AI's are going to carve her up (my decision was vindicated along about turn 3 of my go, when I saw India mobilizing its entire army toward France... I knew they were going to jump in on the dogpile). Russia is already weak from lots of war. They have been softened up by France and Japan. What better time to jump in there and grab some of the pie, after they've blunted the worst of Russia's counterpunches?

Rome is a piddly amount of land. Russia, and the huge swamp No Mans' land with all those piddly colonies, represents a much bigger pie to sink our teeth into, and we now have a SECURE port and foothold. Just keep sending more units, and DON'T take any risks. This is not a situation where stretching to get one more city is a good idea. We need to be able to fend off a major stack of Russian counterattack at any point, so play defensively over there, and only go for another city when you have overwhelming force in place both for the assault and the garrison. Cleaning up cities recently recaptured by Russia after someone else took it from them is a grand opportunity to take over cities that are very lightly defended. I'd say we need about fifteen units PER city over there, for the time being. That's five solid garrison, five flexible garrison, and five expendables. Just don't expend them lightly.


So why pay through the nose to Joanie for luxuries? Our fourth and fifth luxury, enough to make everyone in our sixe 12 cities perfectly happy (except in ones with no cathedral and no market).

As costly as 50-ish gpt sounds, we were paying 120 gpt to run lux at 10%. With Carbon's market crusade, now almost every city has a market, so even just 5 lux = full happiness. Joanie being in Monarchy, the 50gpt we're giving her is NOT a threat to put her ahead in the tech race, or I wouldn't have done it.

Our Xerox Friend should be happy to note that I allowed markets to finish in some towns before swapping to factory. ;)

Rome would have been an easy choice, perhaps, but we're at 1275AD, the game won't end until 2050, or domination, or conquest, so... "I urge you to think long term". :o It just seemed wisest to me to extend our reach, as there is a LOT more game to play here. One might almost say, "Now the preparation is over, and the game begins." It's not stretching your neck when you move decisively, with lots of units, and don't need to rely on good luck to succeed. In Russia, we should be able to grab more land without having to be the point man on the attack. At least we have a stage for future operations in the region.


Getting two conscripts per turn, for the rest of the game (Phoenix and New Bombay) ought to help with the heavy garrison load we'll need to run. One note: don't be afraid to use these troops, they're expendables -- and they promote quickly. Just don't waste them outright, since taking losses is just as much a factor to add to war weariness as is attacking the enemy on their home soil. There's no war weariness yet, despite decades of war with Russia and now some offensive action. That's one more reason war with Rome was a bad idea at this juncture. We'd surely have built up war weariness too soon, and then either had to slow research (ACK! Don't do that please!) or back off at the first chance. With better tech and full industrial production, we can sweep them away completely at a later date.

We're committed to war with Russia and Peace with Rome, France and England through at least Charis's turn. Carbon can re-evaluate the alliances when he goes to bat.

One more thing: Coal plants. Don't build em, except maybe in a couple cities. Ones that might build wonders, or have finished all their infrastructure and are solely cranking troops, and could shave a turn off the production cycle with a coal plant. Boston should be the site for ToE and Hoover, I think, or at least Hoover.

Charis, your turn ought to be entertaining. :)


- Sirian

Charis: We've got one turn in at 80% on Electricity. So whatever you do with the rate, don't swap off our progress thinking we had nothing invested there yet. Good luck!

:hammer: :hammer: :hammer:

Excellent!! :hammer:

I'm gonna have fun this turn!!! (I have a lot of fun on these turns, I hope everyone else has that feeling, that no one is missing out on the chance for glorious conquest!)

As I started reading the story it dawned on me... this is Sirian's turn??? Oh man, I wouldn't want to be a Russian right now! I was reading a post on Apolyton called the "Rogue State Strategy", which would have suggested you do precisely what you did. Hmmm.... lemme find the link, it's a good read:
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?threadid=40670

In a nutshell, at the point where countries have cut over to Democracy and are starting to pull ahead of you in tech while you're in Republic, pick one of the larger and most powerful foes on your map and get the WHOLE WORLD to go to war against them. After a long battle they get wiped out, the world goes into anarchy or communism due to major weariness, you don't fight a whole lot yourself except to snag a small bit of the pie, build Suffrage and get a tech-production gain. By picking a tough big foe the others are sure to get a good beating too, which helps.

It seems good sense overall that given two foes you want to not just hurt but take out, you go for the stronger first. Lest you weaken yourself in going for the low hanging fruit and find the other has in the mean time grow stronger. Plus.... **NO ONE** else is going after Rome. They would have to come through us to succeed. In other words, that territory is 100% ours, just Rome doesn't know it yet. Russia, otoh, any gains there are flat out new lands, more area to BUILD on that did not at first belong to us (like the colonies).

Just a scant few turns ago, I paved the way for war in Russia, built the ship and (cough) settlers and left it for others to persue that option. If there's one prediction or goal I would make for this upcoming turn, if the Russians have that saltpeter now, we WILL have it come the end of the Charis turn. :hammer: :rolleyes:

I've never used conscription in my games. :eek: (Sorta like that renegotiation stuff, things tend to be either mastered or never-used, little in between) This seems like a real good use (wow, a conscription factory, love it, and on "my converts" in New Bombay!) It also overcomes what would otherwise be HUGE FEAR, leaving 6,10, 15 units on garrison on a freshly conquered city. My fear of it flipping and losing, gasp, a dozen riflemen, would make me ill. Losing 12 turns of New Bombay production? No loss!

If it's not doing a wonder or "good thing" right now, I would put our future Hoover builder on coal factory before it comes time to build it. Once Hoover is completed, sell it again, but the benefit of getting it 10ish turns early continent wide are worth it.

Charis

I'll start by two bottom line items...
1) Russia has no more white powder :hammer:
2) You'll either love or hate a fiscal maneuver the silly Deacon pulled on his last turn. Many details below...

--

The aged Deacon came back from a looooong stay at a monastery for prayer
and meditation. When he came back, he was simply astounded at the success of
the great leaders before him. Cleveland! Dulles! Laguardia? Harper's Ferry?
Deacon's Beacon??? You were all so small when I saw you last, now look at you!
46 shields from Seatle? 37 from Baltimore?? Deacon Charis wept for joy.
"So, things are well, we are at peace, no?" "No, Reverend :(" 8-o
"You see... the atheists from Russia have taken hostage a missionary by
the name of Peter. A good man, a true pillar of faith. They nicknamed him
"Salt" in fact. Poor, poor, Saltpeter. He's there now, in the heart of
Russia, being pressed to serve evil.

The Deacon's heart fell. He knew that no matter what else happened, even
if the shores of the homeland themselves crumbled into ruin, Salt Peter would
be freed!!! His military advisor Deacon Siri fainted on hearing these reckless
words. Hear now the rest of the story...

His review: Factories, hospital, universities, courthouses... most excellent
choices for a builder nation. It was learned that . Vitebsk had no rebels
visible in the city, but the Deacon saw great spiritual evil at work. He
decided to not let the workers touch the tools, instead dialoging with Russian
scientists. He did not expect any real production from the city, but he would
NOT lose the beach head, not on HIS shift! He looked forward to learning of
Electricity, but thought +150 gold per turn and 5 turns a great choice. As
all knew, the Deacon needed some spending money for his pet projects. Previous
leaders could try to wreck the treasury, but he would find a way...

His last preparatory move was to call an old friend in San Diego...

1275 AD (0) - "The USS what??? OH! Yes, yes, the USS Charis. My goodness it
hasn't seen the sea in a few hundred years, but yessir, it's in great shape,
just in dry dock. Huh? You want it to go WHERE???? Oh my, by your command, sir!"
"Not a problem sir, my pleasure. The courthouse? A rush order?? Thanks sir!!! You
really didn't need to do that, but thank you! Yes, we'll use it to protect the
colonies, aye!"

1280 AD (1) - Russians take back Bryansk but are otherwise very quiet.
Pollution strikes New York. (Is that our first bout?!) Atlanta starts a
hospital and expects to finish in 6 turns. (The Deacon is still in amazement
at these new production rates!)

"Phoenix and New Bombay". The historians and advisors have the Deacon practice
this phrase until he is proficient at it. On Knights this round: SF, . Buffalo
shifts to Knight duty at a zero-waste 2 turns a pop, and Deacon Beacon, home
port of the glorious USS Charis, starts to churn out endless ironclads. :hammer:

"I just don't understand corruption," says the Deacon as he sakes his head.
"Ya lose 10 of 14 shields in San Diego, but all 19 of 20 shields in Albequerque,
almost an identical distance from our capitol. It makes no sense..."
Post-courthouse San Diego can give 6 shields per turn, not uber, but useful.
Someday it dreams of a factory, but for now, an aqeuduct.

Just 4 workers to clear pollution in one turn with industrious?! Woo!
First battle of the turn, Knight on Cossack we win a come-from-behind struggle
with 1hp left. Ouch!

"How's that harbor coming in Vitebsk?" "Great sir, it'll be done in 59 years."
"Hmmm, I need it done today!" "Ok sir" (mumbles something about deficit
spending and saunters off)

A fascinating battle on the edge of binocular range outside New Lahore.
The Cossacks ignore our monster stack heading East and go for a lone French
Longbowman. Another goes after New Lahore and dies. Hmmmmm.... If Lahore
should fall to Russia and we capture it from them, we gain a new coal source!!

1285 AD (2) - New York with 40 shield production is chosen as another Knight
factory. Philly Cheese steak spills in the streets and causes a pollution
mess. The Deacon's mumbling advisor starts Banks in Pittsburgh, Harper's Ferry
and Miami knowing they'll be needing given this guy's spending rate!

1290 AD (3) - New Lahore DOES fall! Wow. Wall Street is completed! Now the
mumbling advisor is REALLY giving Deacon what-for about his spending!
DC starts a hospital, Boston finishes hers, and can kick out 1 knight/turn!
Our first Ironclad battle... and it gets mauled by the Russian Galleon.
Deacon writhes in pain at this! "Surely this pitiful excuse for a boat
did not come from The BEACON!" We start to play science slider ping pong
to make the most of Wall Street. (Push way back one round, up the next.
Same total to science, same tech rate, more gold from interest)
The cossacks go for more attacks, and we win one, lose one.

1295 AD (4) - Seatle goes for a Coal plant, to hit 70/turn for Knight popping.
The people request Battlefield Medicine. (A splendid idea, that gets going in Washington shortly)

What to do with all the workers not on pollution? I know, let's
start a "Neighborhood Watch Program". Russia won't be attacking Deacon's Beacon anytime soon!!

1300 AD (5) - The French capture New Lahore! (Bummer... yet it may fall again)
The INSOLENT Greeks get all uppity as we step one foot on their border line
as we try to get the Russians off their land. The Deacon burns with suspicion
and feels an evil present in Alexander. He gets Deacon's vote as next power
that will need some chopping down to size after Russia is wounded.
An elite cossack in the jungle with 1hp is not allowed to escape. A second
hurt one guarding a white powder is also slain. "Uh, sir, you need some
white powder?" "WHAT?! Japan AND England both have it for trade?? I only
need some for a few turns. OMG what a difference it would have made at the
start of my reign in barracked cities! Our Knights are no match for the
Cossacks!" England wants it for Democracy and Steam Power. Next 8-\
Japan just wants Free Artistry and we already have Shakespeare?! Done!
Without shifting off ANY real 'building' plans ongoing, we start to produce
eight cavs and two cannon (and one Privateer ;p) In looking at the cities
Deacon also rushes Las Vegas Courthouse and Stables, and to finally bring
some culture to the Russian homeland, a Temple in Vitebsk.

1305 AD (6) - Hrrrrmf. Just as we start to close on Maikop, suspected home
of SaltPeter, the Japanese take it over! (And New Lahore is looking more secure
for the French. We need some settlers here asap!) Las Vegas now produces
5 shields instead of 2 with the courthouse. 18 Cats are upgraded to Cannons.
Our Knights recover Salt Peter!! Well, they find where he is held, and they
pillage the site. It's not clear whether they can get him safely back home
yet, but the Russian supply is no more! Uhh.... urg.... wait!! The *REAL*
Salt Peter is not here, but in Bryansk!!!! It's RIGHT NEXT to our war patrol!

Who let dogs out... Deacon did!! The dogs of war (or so their foes did call
them) let loose like rapid hounds after the city! Looking at geographical
surveys shows Japan source under Fukushima.

Oh my!! What's that LOOSE in the field, unprotected?? A Russian...
Great Leader!! The dogs POUNCE, just upgraded in time enough to have the
speed to do it, just before the GL enters Bryansk! Another Knight who got
lost found himself on a Riga irrigated flood plain wheat square, which he
thrashes so thouroughly with his hooves the place is pillaged. Alas, the
poor knight never saw the Cossack coming that would end his life that eve :(

The war between turns is amazing to watch. The Russians and French battle
so closely that both sides are hurt very bad. The Russians are winding
down though... they try to retake Maikop with two conscript riflemen and
a cossack with 1 hp. Japan repels them. And rather than beef up Bryansk
(their last saltpeter source) they defend Batum, in quite a battle with
the French. Meanwhile, the Romans shift a Longbown and Pikeman around on
the border ;p Ok, ok, so they won't be declaring war anytime soon.

1310 AD (7) - The USS Charis enters the national waters around the Russian
port of Novgorod. Sheer unadulterated terror is struck into the citizens
of Nogo! The massive whale trade there is put to a halt, and the people
start to cry, starve, and gnash their teeth! The USS Charis cries out,
"Who wants some??? Come get some!" taunting them to build a vessel of
war to send against it! Feeling more secure with the USS Charis back in
action, the Galleon mothballed in San Diego is sent to St.Louis to stock
up on Riflemen, Cavalry and Cannon to supply the colonies! (Due in 1360)

Washington starts to research Battlefield Medicine (10 turns). Boston
cranks out Cav at 1/turn while we have a SP source.

We visit Joanie who winks at Deacon and says something about spicey furs.
The Deacon is appalled and says that he'll get everything he needs out of
Catherine in 3 turns and then he'll have no need for Joan. The idea of
Deacon rebuffing her and saying "Catherine can give me all I want" drives
her to the very brink of insanity. Deacon leaves the meeting very confused.
:blush:

A stellar success taking Bryansk! It grows from size 1 to 2 last turn, (or
at least I thought it was size 1 before) and we defeat one conscript and one
regular rifleman with two cavs, both down to 1hp. We had four more behind
that stack and I thought I might need every one. Barracks and granary
are intact. And the road to that harbor that Deacon 'madly' rushed means
all luxuries go in and the saltpeter goes home! "Salt Peter is coming
home boys!!!" :hammer: :hammer:

Batun may fall to the French next round. If not, Deacon's troops are swarmed
outside the city and will take it. That is that the last one he intends to
go for, anticipating peace soon. (For us, let the others duke it out, we've
got infrastructure to BUILD!) He orders no new military unit production
started on his turn (although ones in progress will finish)

1315 AD (8) - Ha! The French and Russians beat themselves just silly with
casualties on both sides. The French kill one defender but cannot take
Batum. The move a stack now of about 5 or 6 adjacent. By the end of the
turn that city will not be the Russians to take! :P

NY is one of the few to start a coal plant, and Boston starts the only
'placeholder' that takes more than 2 turns- the Palace in 13. TOE will
available before that. Chicago takes a few turns to catch up on basics
like a Library and a Bank. It's itching for another wonder though!

Oh my!! Everyone wants a peace of the pie! Rome (!) declares war on
the Russians :lol: (2 turns also left on their MPP)

We take a shot with an 'expendable' conscript rifles and go after a Cossack
on low ground with 1hp. Now a regular :P In Bryansk, we rush a temple.

Shoot, not just two defenders in Batum, but three. An 3hp cav from Bryansk
gallops up but fails, wounding the last defender. Can the Rifleman once
again show offensive prowess? Hahaha! He does! The regular becomes a vet!
(I don't think I would have tried that vs a size 7 city, but it was size 6)
An Ironclad fails to defeat a frigate-caravel pair outside Vitebsk.
Deacon again wails for the glory days of the USSC.

1320 AD (9) - Russia does manage to pull out some more Cossacks. Two come
at Batum and defeat two of our defenders. Then on the French turn they
lash back with fury and go after those Cossacks! :hammer:
At the "ambush" site of the trick-saltpeter outside Mayuik our knight
defending the site dies. (Alas, too bad he couldn't have been in a
barracks for the great upgrade). JUST one turn before our riflemen arrive
next to the site.

The resistance at Batum crumbles as they starve.

Deacon checks all mainland cities for factories and cathedrals. Almost all
have both, although he does need to start a half-dozen cathedrals. These
are (not surprisingly seen on the happiness screen as sad face cities)

The approach of the now infamous "Deacon Infantry Regiment"
scares the Cossack off the white dust! The rifle and a worker step up
planning to found a colony for America! Eep, another Cossack, is this an
ambush??!

Just outside Kuibyshev a Russian ship brings reinforcements! :eek:
What are they? Musketman, Spearman and Cossack. Our cav retreats on (but
hurts) the Musketman, and a second one kills the Cossack, becoming elite.
Another cav moves up to finish the Musketman and succeeds. We sent a
conscript to train on the spearman and indeed he does. Training how NOT
to shoot (he dies). A second one wins, but stays a conscript.

Take a look at the screenshot below. We have, uh, just a FEW units
above Miami waiting to cross the channel (24). Have been shuttling them
across furiously with four ships but our production outpaces them.
If war is ongoing make another ship or two, if not, go for peace soon.

Perhaps it's time to step down?

1325 AD (10) - OH MY!! We don't like what we see between turns here!!
(Or do we?)

(Savefile attached here, but see next for screenshot and final turn action)

... Russia and Greece sign a military pact against.... Rome!!

Rome *immediately* comes knocking on our door. His words are too funny...

"Deacon, Rome is having trouble against the evil Greeks. Let us punish
them together!" Gosh... tough call... can I pass this on to our next in line?
(Hits 'escape', I'm sure they would take it if offered by us again)

- It cracks me up to see Legionarres and Archers racing South to 'fight'
Alas, it's less funny when 6 end their turn just outside Kansas City.
I send in a few troops just to be sure.

The only nice thing in this in-between turn is that Japan steps up and
ambushes the ambushers! They strike dead the Cossacks at our white-powder
colony. Likewise the French and Russians wipe each other out just outside
'our' new city, Batum! :hammer:

- We found "Coaltown" right next to coal and two steps from New Lahore.
(Rush a temple!)

- We just finished Scientific Method, eligible for the pre-started wonder in
Boston, and... the treasury will be over 1000, making full use of Wall Street!
:hammer: Who says the Deacon is fiscally irresponsible?!

That means we just chose the new research tech. I picked Espionage *so that*
it would not be given to us by the TOE. Actually, TOE is due in 6 turns
in Boston. I've set research slider on large bonus cash (50% sci) to make
it in 5 turns. Then pick Espionage, and our two 'free' ones would be from
The Corporation, Replaceable Parts and Atomic Theory :P (If you can instead
trade for one or the other, Communism/Espio you could research the Corporation
in 5 turns and get open up Steel and Refining as a free choice.) (I think
everyone knows TOE gives the two cheapest techs as its prize, unlike Civ2)
Heck if we get Communism spread it around and home they switch to it!

- Keep an eye on captured Russian cities. I've been keeping them on
100% tax collector to avoid flipping.

- Hmmm.... Greece... Rome... tech.... I go visit Alex. We've got an MPP with
Rome but it won't "kick in" until Greece actually attacks them, but it
WILL happen. Greece has Communism. Can we offer gpt for Communism :p
Why yes... cough... at a mere 222 gpt/turn. (They actually believe we would
pay that?? Well, sheesh, that is less than our surplus this turn)
Hmmm... can't hurt? Or can it? The Deacon says "It's payback time for your
insolence at the start of my reign, Alexander!" Deal is done.

- With no saltpeter supply, will we see the Russians lose Cossacks soon?
What would replace them? Rifle on offense, or longbowmen?

Well the deal adds a new wrinkle. We now have Communism (consider selling to all)
and will complete Espionage before TOE is done in Boston. Next research (the
cheaper tech) and we'll right after get Replaceable Parts (woo) and the
precursor to Electronics, Atomic Theory. You can either i) continue to pay
Greece for a while until he attacks Rome (if he does), ii) pull out and
give Rome a city where Greece will attack to speed that (ew), or iii) sign
an Alliance vs Greece with the Romans. The latter two will end the 222 gpt deal.
If in response he gets mad, too bad. If I were Alex I would ask Liz or Toku to
join me. If they get sneaky and do that, outsneak them! Sign an MPP with whoever
he buddied up to, and move a colony worker next to Apolyton. Greek attacks
us before we attack them and their new buddy turns on them. Either that or I'm
insane and this level of diplomacy is beyond me ;p

Oh, please do rush the temple in Coaltown NEXT TURN (once 1 shield done).
New Lahore has zero culture, and if we get our temple first, the boundary
WILL move and the coal is ours.

Good luck, Carbon, you've really got your hands full,
Charis

Entertaining read :goodjob: some hilarious moments. :lol:

Conscript "training" is indeed a dangerous business. :)


Congrats on the military excitement. I wasn't kidding when I said that France and Russia were really going at it.

Did something go wrong with your screenshots? And a double post? Maybe you can edit that and sort it all out for us.

As for 222gpt, yikes. You know, there isn't a prayer in Heck that we'll get Atomic Theory theory for free. It will just roll up through the Combustion line instead. So... maybe we'll get Rep Parts and Corp or maybe Corp and Refining. Not bad, but we do have some interest in getting to both Infantry and Hoover Dam sooner rather than later. I understand the urge to clean up those lower techs... but what's the rush with ToE at all? The AI's are several techs away from starting it, and don't have any cities that could match Boston. What I'd probably have done is hold out on ToE until the AI's all had communism and I could buy it off them at obsolete prices, or better yet, trade someone a luxury for it.

Now if we had a surefire way to know that Greece was GOING TO declare war on us, then the 222gpt deal would be hustling the hustler. I hope it breaks that way, but you said "alliance vs Rome", right? Not MPP. So... just what is leading you to presume that Alex is about to hang himself? Did I miss something?

If they happen to attack Rome before we get out of our MPP with Rome, our reputation is blackened toast. The AI's will check their foreign advisor and listen to him say, "Lincoln is a known liar and cheat. He has bretrayed our friends, the Greeks." :( We have that problem already in RBD5: our rep there is shot. War was declared by us against somebody (India? Has to be) with whom we still had active agreements. Not good. MUST cancel all agreements first or suffer a black eye and stingy or even nonexistant deals thereafter. No problem for a civ on the total war path, but it cuts short or eliminates options for the diplomat and merchant, and I personally don't like it just on style. I have this thing about beating them honorably, rather than just beating them any way available. I've been known to compromise an agreement now and then, but the need has to be pretty high. (I also stay out of MPP's for this reason, unless confident it won't lead to deal breaking).

Our rep here is still good. I hope your gambit works out to keep it that way, as we have a long long time yet to go to be blackening our rep over one tech. The first thing that goes is willingness to enter into RoP's, and right behind it is willingness to engage in gpt deals. AI's would start demanding hard cash up front, which is a problem for us with just 3 lux on hand at the moment.

Anyway, good job with your progress, even if you did sneak a little :smoke: there with that Communism deal. But... you know, if they don't declare war on us, we're stuck paying 222gpt for 20 turns, or else openly cheat them by declaring war to cancel the deal, which I would not be in favor of doing. That's perhaps 4500 gold for a tech. :cringe: I hope it's not as bad as it sounded over here, and that it works out for us. :)

On the bright side, losing some tech edge doesn't directly affect our score in a negative way. Might make more military action tougher, or put us under threat of nukes a wee bit sooner, but even if it goes badly, it shouldn't be any kind of threat to our overall goals.

As for "oh its only Free Artistry", the AI's (for once) skipped all the optional wonder and democracy techs and beelined to industrial age. Those "optional" techs represented a third of our tech lead. If you gave it to Japan as the second civ on the planet to get the tech, just for saltpeter to get some cavalry going, I'd say you overpaid. What is up with folks evaluating wonder techs to be throwaway? They might be little less painful to trade away because they're less useful, but they still represent as much of a commodity as anything else in the game.

Good job managing the treasury, though. :love: I'm quite pleased to hear that you're handing off with full 50 gpt interest rolling in.


Carbon, good luck on your reign. :soldier:


- Sirian

Tnx for catching the post problem, I edited out the duplicate text...

> As for 222gpt, yikes. You know, there isn't a prayer in Heck that
> we'll get Atomic Theory theory for free. It will just roll up
> through the Combustion line instead. So... maybe we'll get Rep
> Parts and Corp or maybe Corp and Refining.

No, Atomic Power is assured with the action taken. It will NOT give you a tech you're working on. With Communism learned, and Espionage being learned the turn before TOE (a key point) we start The Corporation. The only two choices available for our bonus two are then Replacement Parts and Atomic Theory. We then crank up Science to finish corp and have Electronics 4 turns later. Then Hoover in quick order after that. With Hydro Plants for our whole world (one big continent) we're turned a 'good' lead into an absolute blowout, we-can't-be-stopped lead! :hammer:
And we get Artillery and Infantry to boot!

The timing as far as why rush is that the 6-10+ turns gained are turns with Hydro plants and Infantry and push us that further ahead. Having those two techs instead of at the Commun/Espio level is big.

> Now if we had a surefire way to know that Greece was GOING
> TO declare war on us, then the 222gpt deal would be hustling
> the hustler. I hope it breaks that way, but you said "alliance vs
> Rome", right? Not MPP. So... just what is leading you to
> presume that Alex is about to hang himself? Did I miss
> something?

Hmmm... now you've got me wondering. I know at some point we got MPP with Rome (or did I misremember and that was alliance, oh shoot, may have been alliance). In any case the way I was reading it was that an MPP or alliance cascade would cause us to auto-declare war on Greece for an action THEY took. I'm now wondering if that if fuzziness... nay, weed??! :smoke:

> If they happen to attack Rome before we get out of our MPP
> with Rome, our reputation is blackened toast. The AI's will
> check their foreign advisor and listen to him say, "Lincoln is a
> known liar and cheat.

:eek: Uh... drats :( Rest assured my intent was NOT to let our rep get tarnished, thinking that since there would be no 'chosen' declaration of war vs Greece but they would start it and we would get drawn in, it would not tarnish our rep. If you're correct, that's a rule-misunderstanding mistake on my part and that I'll have to bone up on to not mess up again.

> I have this thing about beating them honorably, rather than
> just beating them any way available. I've been known to
> compromise an agreement now and then, but the need has to
> be pretty high. (I also stay out of MPP's for this reason, unless
> confident it won't lead to deal breaking).

I must not understand the reputation implications of MPP quite right then. I would have thought that "I have MPP with xyz, so be aware, Greece, that any attack on them is an attack on us, and will be treated as a declaration of war on us" (ie, they were the ones breaking rep). Also, I only went forward with the payment thinking, it's steep, rather steep actually, but really not out of line with the gain if someone said "No! That's not right!". A tech at this stage of the game costs about 2000 gold (1K, 3K, not sure, but that ballpark). A cost of 4K then is like trading two techs for one, but again, the *production* advantage in one tech quicker to hydro and with Infantry now in hand, is huge. Also, our "cash gain per round" was +250/turn, and it seemed giving up the 'excess' cash for hydro/infantry wasn't a bad fiscal move.
Still, if I knew then it would end up blackening our rep for something besides and explicit "we declare war against you" button push, I wouldn't have chosen it.

> The first thing that goes is willingness to enter into RoP's, and
> right behind it is willingness to engage in gpt deals. AI's would
> start demanding hard cash up front, which is a problem for us
> with just 3 lux on hand at the moment.

Our rep, alas, is/was spotless at the moment then, for I was truly shocked to see them accept 222/turn as payment.

Whoever's next is going to have to live with the war consequences if things go south, and my bad for that. But I would ask that he be SURE to finish Espionage before TOE arrives and start The Corporation as our next research, or all this is strictly for naught.

A hypothetical question. Let's say that with 222 gpt in a trade for tech you discover your rep will be toast due to an ally's actions. Is there a way to renegotiate? It would be not cheap but painful, but could you offer like Democracy, 700 gold (and if needed another tech, but ouch if that's needed)? If instead of "renegotiate" you did a new deal and ended up getting 230 gpt from them would it show up as a net 8? Probably not I'm thinking (definitely not if different durations, but maybe not even if durations are the same)

> As for "oh its only Free Artistry", the AI's (for once) skipped all
> the optional wonder and democracy techs and beelined to
> industrial age. Those "optional" techs represented a third of
> our tech lead. If you gave it to Japan as the second civ on the
> planet to get the tech, just for saltpeter to get some cavalry
> going, I'd say you overpaid. What is up with folks evaluating
> wonder techs to be throwaway? They might be little less
> painful to trade away because they're less useful, but they still
> represent as much of a commodity as anything else in the game.

I've read your discussions on why you can blow a tech lead with 'optional' techs just as easy as 'key techs' since AI's need EVERY tech, and it's a point well taken. As far as "only free artistry" I meant that it did not put us in jeopardy to lose a tech. Some folks get that wrong, giving up say Democracy when they just start building Shakespeare, then being surprised to lose Shakespeare down the line. Well, the AI didn't have to research democracy and got FreeArtistry quicker. But without the potential loss of a wonder, what I mean is that you give up a tech with no *convertible* benefit for one which has great convertible benefit. Ie for those research turns, they get zip out of FA but we get Hydro out of Atomic. (Another more common example would be trading "Economics" when Smiths was already done for Nationalism. You get an immediate convertible advantage) A convertible advantage is one which lets you push even further ahead immediately.

I did want Saltpeter, but as much or more wanted to deny our enemy saltpeter and coal. Before my turn started I would probably have agreed that Cavalry were a luxury, not really needed. But... after a few rounds of combat, watching the French go toe-to-toe with Cossacks and seeing Knights get mauled on defense, and lose by a hair on offense, I knew I could not reach my objectives without Cavalry, and now. As soon as I got my hands on them (thanks in part to the barracks in the captured city), our battles went decisive. Simply put, we now have Bryansk and Batum, and have taken all the Russian saltpeter supply, killing their Cossack production, due to getting Miltradition right then. (I'm utterly convinced of the benefit of this, although if others see it different, that's fine) Er.... if Shakespeare's hasn't been built yet and I traded away Free Artistry however, I'll take a a little paddling :spank:

> Carbon, good luck on your reign.
I hope he's either a really good diplomat or a really good soldier. :) Can't wait to see how it turns out :hammer:

The worst that could happen would be for England and Japan to both join forces with Russia and Greece. :eek: If we could instead pull England into our camp, we won't have a war but an ally on the colony side. If war does break out with Greece, Apolyton should be captured for a lock on the northern island for our colony. Oh, and if possible allow that ship incoming to St Louis to take back a few goodies to the colonies.

Charis

Hey guys, I find my posts getting longer and longer.
Am I rambling on, spouting far too many details? Seeming too bossy? Making it real easy to lose key 'todo' items with the sheer volume of words? Or are these reports helpful? Their length is due mostly due to the very very intense nature of the current turns.

Let me know so I can adjust!
Charis

(If any lurkers have comments, feel free to chime in too. If I get none I'll assume they're waaaaaaay too long and we've lost readers :crazyeyes: )

Charis, I personally enjoy reading the ins and outs of the game -- your thoughts and such. The USS Charis comments and such add some spice to the reading, which I quite enjoy. I'd say keep at it.

I like the strategy discussions, too. I find myself agreeing with different people on different occasions, occasionally shaking my head at one person's strategy, finding my jaw drop with the amount of micromanagement others do, etc. It's all good.

But I will say I find the Deacon fiscally irresponsible -- just because I can!!! :hammer:

Arathorn

P.S. My take on the whole MPP thing is that YOU are going to be the ones declaring war, thus you'll take the reputation hit. Just my guess, as I'm not really sure, preferring to avoid MPPs whenever possible.

No, Atomic Power is assured with the action taken. It will NOT give you a tech you're working on.

What leads you to believe this?

I thought of this one, too. I thought it I would be clever, and have it give me both Atomic and Electronics, as I had Rep Parts and Communism and Espionage. I was two turns (out of four) into researching Corporation when ToE was constructed. It gave me Corporation and Refining.

Now this is the only example I have, but having tried this exact same theory and watching the game bust it like that, I haven't felt compelled to try again.

So... unless you have anecdotal experience trying this move and having had it work for you, in which case there might be some wildcards in there, the premise on which your whole move here was based is faulty. Because I have definitely seen ToE hand out a tech I'd halfway completed researching, because it was the cheapest left on the board.

I think the only way to get Atomic Theory from ToE is to have researched every last possible tech on the other branch, possibly including even flight. Atomic Theory would be WORTH two techs, its cost is simply huge and so is Electronics. Nearly double what it takes for Espionage, I believe. But... I'm sure you'll agree, if it hands us a partial Corporation, plus Rep Parts or Refining, that we can pronounce it as a case of :smoke: akin to "oh I didn't know you could irrigate cattle under despotism to get more than two food" -- not faulty thinking at all, just faulty presumptions.

It's done now. Either way, let ToE finish, and we'll see what happens. :)


As for keeping a city on all specialists, that's not it. Firaxis programmers posted info about flipping at Apolyton. There are two main factors: foreign nationals in the city (someone else's citizens) and border pressure with some other civ's borders infringing on the city's natural 21 tile radius. If no pressure and no foreign nationals, then ZERO chance of flip.

If there is some chance, it is magnified by relative ratio of distance to each applicable capital city, ratio of total cultural value for each rival, heavy emphasis on "past cultural history" if another civ has possessed the city at a prior point (thus Jaffa's WISE move to raze India's capital in RBD5 -- we'd NEVER have held that for long without a massive garrison) -- after all this is calculated, there's a straight subtraction for each unit on garrison (not counting artillery and noncombatants). Finally, the chance is HALVED if the city is in WLTKD, and DOUBLED if the city is in civil disorder, so one must always be careful with that. Note that a city with all specialists never goes into disorder, so that helps explain why when I starve a captured city, I just convert them all to taxmen until its down to size 1.

Starvation reduces the number of foreign nationals down to ONE, which can't be eliminated. Then regrowing assures all new citizens are your own nationality, and perfectly safe. In fact, you WANT the city to grow to at least size 3, as once the foreign nationals are outnumbered, they experience cultural pressure and will convert to your nationality once that pressure overcomes their history. The longer the history, the more pressure it takes, so an ancient city captured may never lose that one foreign national left in it, or it may take a while.

You're actually hurting us by leaving the cities at size 1. We DO NOT want to leave them full of Russians, but once it's down to 1, we want to grow our own people there asap, the sooner to convert that last Russian into an American. Make sense?

Now that I know what factors contribute to flipping, I'm better armed to deal with preventing it. Apparently, courthouses only protect against Propaganda through Espionage.


The game is silly, IMO, to promote starvation as the only good solution to cultural problems. That's unrealistic, as in real life it would severely blacken the culture, rep, etc, of any such nation doing it. But... what is a player to do? The game design is at fault in this case, IMO, as I consider the penalty of WIPING OUT the garrison after a revolt, with NO chance, to be unbalanced -- and have no problem with using the starvation loophole to work around that imbalance. Two wrongs, in this case, oddly do come out to make a right: the game is playable with starvation. Without it, frankly, it's not -- or else you have to take the other loophole, which is to raze everything. Either way, the game improperly rewards brutality in an unrealistic way, or perhaps more accurately, penalizes a player too harshly for "playing fair" with captured cities.


- Sirian

I must not understand the reputation implications of MPP quite right then. I would have thought that "I have MPP with xyz, so be aware, Greece, that any attack on them is an attack on us, and will be treated as a declaration of war on us" (ie, they were the ones breaking rep).

That's what I thought too, until my second game. My rep very definitely went into the drink after MPP activation. What it appears to be, is that you have agreements with two civs, and you break all your agreements with the one civ and attack them, out of obligation to the other. My experience definitely shows me that rep goes south if an MPP leads to broken deals, especially trade deals. Having an MPP with two different civs at war with one another is the worst possible situation (check my Desolate Japan report).

Nearly as bad is making peace prematurely while a military alliance is in effect. That, too, sends your rep into the drink. If you have ANY active agreements other than "Peace Treaty" and declare war, for ANY reason and by any mechanism, then your rep suffers. The game is especially touchy about RoP agreements, if you have one active and declare war, or even if you cancel it on the same turn as you attack, your rep is tarnished. I've taken to cancelling it the turn before. (If I cancel RoP on you, that's NOT a good sign. It's an even worse sign if I have five transports parked in international waters just off the shore of your capital -- as happened to somebody in Apoly4. :lol: )



Charis: as for your post length and the other issues you asked about, I'd be hounded (and rightly so) for hypocrisy if offered even one peep of criticism in that direction. ;) I think your reports have taken on quite some life lately. I've laughed a lot. :) Isn't that a good thing?

:sheep:

I thought of this one, too. I thought it I would be clever, and have it give me both Atomic and Electronics, as I had Rep Parts and Communism and Espionage. I was two turns (out of four) into researching Corporation when ToE was constructed. It gave me Corporation and Refining.

:eek:

Well this may be wake-up-and-smell-the-coffee day???

I've build ToE in most of my games and have never gotten one
I'm researching at the time. First couple of times I built it I felt gyped at getting Comm/Espio. On third time I figured it wasn't random and did some playing. Researching either one meant I did NOT get it, but something else instead (along with the other optional). I don't think it can go "two deep", so hoping for both Atomic and Electronics at once could backfire.

Perhaps this is how it works:
- Find two techs *currently* available and not being researched
- If you've picked less than two, add the one their currently researching to the list
- If still less than two, tough nuggies!

So if you maneuvered to eliminate choices other than Atomic Theory, that would be why it had to give you The Corp.

I tried to look up a definite answer on CF or Apo, but found none. The closest post I saw was as follows (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10789&highlight=theory+and+of+and+evolution)

> In my last game, I started building the Theory of Evolution right
> away. While it was being built, I studied and achieved
> replaceable parts, then counted my turns to finish. I went out
> and traded for espionage and then busted my research to get
> corporation before I finsihed the wonder. I was taking a loss of
> about 80 gold per turn, but it was worth it. I finished the
> Corporation and started refining (the tech with the SHORTEST
> turns to finish. I don't think you'll get the tech you're working
> on as one of your free techs). I then got Steel and Atomic
> Theory right away and never looked back on my tech lead.

Most folks seem to use ToE to jump ahead in the race to Tanks.

I still think we'll get Atomic Theory and Replaceable, but now I'm only 70% sure not 100% 8-/ It will be good to know if this is a good way to get Atomic/Replaceable in the future, and yes, if the answer is no, it's a case of... :smoke:

Regarding your comments on flipping, I'm glad you've seen Firaxis' comments. I've gone over those threads in detail, and one suggestion that no one could refute by anecdote was... instead of counting foreign nationals it counts *working* foreign nationals. I don't know if that's so, but I've been a total hawk at entertaining captured cities that I can't afford to flip right then, and so far, not a one. That's anecdotal the wrong way- you can prove if a flip can occur by one instance, but can't prove it can't occur by 100 non-flips.

As far as realism, I think starving or making them all Elvis is silly. I can see Courthouses not doing much but Police Stations being great. I would see putting in a brand new temple as more offensive than helpful, too.

Firaxis info that tiles-in-21 under your boundary have a big effect is why I think "Deacon's Beacon" and my other in-your-face city got flips so quick in rbd3.

If they count all foreigners, having size one is hurting us, if they count only working one, it's a HUGE help. (Still not foolproof due to tile pressure) I wish I knew which was right 8-\ (May need some testing)

Thanks for the feedback, (although I sure hope I'm still right ;p)
Charis

:goodjob: Hey, Charis, this lurker appreciates long, detailed in-character-style posts as well as posts with minute game details. I come here for the stories, but I also come here to learn. I'm still struggling along at warlord level, so I definitely enjoy reading these debates over strategery ;). At any rate, keep up the good work, all of you! :goodjob:

Lurker here ... Per Charis' question, I do believe I have lost cities while starving them down (no workers on tiles), so I think this is possible. But it certainly is rarer than not starving the city, since obviously you are steadily decreasing the # of foreigners.

IMHO, the frequency of culture flipping after military takeover is utter BS. But that's a whole other topic.

And your writeups are fun to read. :)

BinkleyYaz

Wow, people seem to do a lot of posting from around midnight to noon (as opposed to me, doing all my posts late afternoon to evening)! :D

Charis: I'm not sure I like the 222 per turn agreement - I don't ever like paying the AI that much money, especially per turn, since it insures peace with that AI for twenty turns. I am surprised, though, that MPP's cause YOU to get your reputation trashed - yet another reason to stay away from them. Anyway, I think this deal is going to get our reputation trashed and that there isn't much of a way out of it - Alex isn't going to end the deal with that much money coming in, and the net result is a speeding of Alex's tech rate and a slowing of ours (is Alex still in democracy?). My verdict: :smoke:

As for the saltpeter deal, I personally have experienced industrial age warfare against the Russians with cossacks, and it is slow going if the best unit you have is a knight. I think in that deal the benefits outweighed the concessions you had to make to Japan.

On the theory of evolution, I believe it gives you the least expensive techs regardless of how much research you have put into a specific tech. The only anecdote I can offer on this subject is that one time when I finished TOE, I had Atomic Theory, Replacable Parts, and was researching the Corporation (I don't remember how many turns I was into it, but I had turned the research rate down, for I was expecting TOE to give it to me for free). Upon the completion of TOE, I got as my free techs Electronics and Radio. :confused: Does Radio cost less than The Corporation? And for that matter, do Steel and Refining cost less than Electronics, for if that was so, wouldn't I get The Corporation and Steel or Refining as my free technologies?

And Charis, as to your making long posts, I really enjoy reading what you have to say. In my opinion, that's a good deal of what makes succession games fun. :goodjob:

If we're all reasonably sure that we will not get atomic theory under Charis' current plan, maybe we can research the Corporation at our fastest rate as soon as we get it and switch Boston to a Palace placeholder for the interim. This would waste shields, but I believe that it would get us Atomic Theory out of TOE. Is this a good idea, or simply another case of :smoke: ?

I'm still betting current plan is correct, finish espio and start corp, finishing toe in the middle of that research. The damage is already done in a sense, please give it at least a chance for the intended good!! Two weeds don't make a flower! :P

Charis

Well I enjoy the posts here and for what it's worth, Charis your posts aren't as long as Sirians can be and I like both of them so no worries in my opinion from that. :D

I do have a question about ROP agreements however that maybe someone can answer...

I have noticed that there are numerous comments about renegotiating ROP agreements so the AI gives the player more money, etc. I know when you offer maps, or diplomatic argeements, etc, you can always seem to ask the AI what they would give for this item but with a ROP I always seem to only get the option to ask them what it would take for a ROP.

Am I missing something or when you folks negotiate or re-negotiate ROP's do you simply add or subtract things until you maximize profits/benefit from the AI?

I suppose I am simply lazy but that almost seems to be more of a tedious hassle than it's worth as opposed to the other agreements when you can simply place a world map on the table for example and tell the AI "show me what you'll give" type thing.

Anyone care to comment?? Thanks!:)

I've already in effect post my "got it" back on the RBD forum (except for the actually having the save file in my possession part ;) ), but I'll reiterate here. As I've got nothing pressing to do today, you can probably expect some sort of resolution to all this speculation sometime this afternoon, after I take a short nap (I had to wake up early for a thoroughly unimportant class, but since that was the only one of the day and I don't work... :sleep: ).

Hopefully Rome will keep its nose clean just long enough for us to weasel out of this MPP. If they do go to war and we're not honor bound to fight in it, all I forsee happening is Rome losing its colonies in the vicinity of Russia, and maybe somewhere the world's smallest violin would play the world's saddest song, but nobody in America would shed many tears for that loss.

Originally posted by Ozymandous
Am I missing something or when you folks negotiate or re-negotiate ROP's do you simply add or subtract things until you maximize profits/benefit from the AI?

Well, yes. That's what I do, anyway :)

The Deacon wrote down in his diary...

"Today this journal is stained with the tears of a nervous wreck and fool. So haughty I was, not seeking the ways of the almighty but trying to be sophisticated in the ways of the world. Ha! Did I botch that! I had thought that the impudence of Greece could be repudiated by a deal which would financially ruin his warmongering black soul, shore up our position in the colonies, and bring us new wisdom. Instead this will surely go down as the "Deacon Debacle", where I either end up making Greece filthy rich, empowering them in the war against our neighbors Rome, or where my own... sob... reputation gets a black stain from which it may never recover. Not only that, the Bishop in the order has decried my efforts to learn the secret of the atom. He is plotting even now, to reverse course, but that would just lead us back to the dark ages. There is power, power for GOOD, in that which he on high as made as the building block of all matter. And harness it we must! I had a vision of clean, pure power, in radiant and fluid glory, bathing our nation, and helping us be more productive builders. This was my vision, or the only thing I can now cling too. My flock and I are now having a prayer meeting for the wise General Carbon. May his sword and his pen both be strong and ring true..."

-- The Deacon

Well, reports here of some people (on other boards) getting Atomic Theory from ToE flies in the face of all my experience with it, so perhaps it will work out. Surely if the wonder gives us both Atomic and Electronics, I will reverse course and call even the 222gpt "worthwhile" for that result. Atomic, Electronics, and Radio are the three most costly techs in that era. Flight is up there, too. Time to cast the die and she what she rolls up. :)

- Sirian

This was, perhaps, one of the most interesting turns that I've played, period. This was a meaty affair, lasting for just a shade over of four hours. I have SO much to write about, I'll just cut to the chase, turn-by-turn:

1325

-I check the trade screen. WE CAN GET OUT OF THE MPP RIGHT NOW!!!!!! I do so. One problem solved. I keep the RoP intact so the Romans can move their malodorous bodies through our territory without having to stop. And throughout my turn, there are hordes of Roman muskets, pikes, Legionaries, spears(!), warriors (!!), horses, and at the end, rifles and Cavalry moving through our territory into India, bound for who knows where. All I know is that none of the cities down there have turned red, and none of the Romans have ever come back.

-I rearrange the tiles in Boston. It stops starving, but it finishes ToE one turn later. I then go to the domestic advisor and take our science down a notch, adding one turn to espionage, but running a 43-gold surplus instead of an 81 gold deficit. Since we're a lock for ToE, there's no sense running to it when we can just walk across the line. I plan on going through with what Charis is going for, and if we don't get the techs we want, it's still free tech that won't be espionage or communism.

-I correct an omission That Theodore C. Roosevelt made during his turn, renaming New Orleans to Ft. New Orleans.

I hit the space bar.

1330

-I don't know what to do with this settler in Russia, and I searched through the last couple posts to find a mention of him, but I didn't find anything. He and his entourage are now headed for the far side of the Saltpeter colony to prevent culture creep from claiming it.

-The vanguard of a bizarre military parade straight from a Roman military history museum makes a tour of the US on its way to India, France, and eventually Greece.

1335

-Joanie turns Polite on us from Gracious, and wants to renegotiate our deal. I slip her two twenty dollar bills and sure enough, that skank is our best friend again and takes the deal up. [pimp]

-I receive five BILLION nag messages about aqueducts and hospitals. I defer all of them until they've finished their current projects.

1340

-I forget to deal out Communism to all of our friends until this turn. Starting with Japan, I get 59 gpt (all their gpt available) and the contents of their treasury, 79g, plus a world map.

-To Joanie for 17 gpt, 12g, and a map to her house...I mean, of the world :blush:

-England wants it for 1g, non-negotiable. I let them take the one turn to research it, instead.

-Rome and India don't seem to be able to trade for it, yet.

-We capture Kursk, the two attacking cavalry losing a combined 1 hp to take out its two defenders. I then add three more cav from Kui to fill out the garrison.

-Batum's temple rushed.

1345

-The resistance in Kursk ends. The people consent to starve to death in a civil manner :satan:

-Rifle reinforcements arrive in Kursk.

1350

-Greece coaxes Japan into an alliance against Rome. For those of you keeping score at home, Japan is still honoring our alliance against Russia, too. So much for "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". I'll post a screenshot of the F4 screen in a seperate post.

-Espionage finished, Corporation started

-Fingers are crossed

-Coal town rushes a temple so it can get some actual coal in its radius.

1355 (The big turn)

-France pulls England into an alliance vs. Russia

-Theory of Evolution finished in Boston





-....





-.........





-...............

-Our techs: Atomic Theory and Replacable Parts! [party]. The Charis Communist Gambit (CCG) can be considered something of a success, or at least decidedly NOT a failure. I switch research over to Electronics, abandoning the Corporation for now, and start prebuilding for Hoover Dam in Boston. I won't cry too long over 1 turn of research lost when we'll gain four more turns of Hoover-influenced production.


-With replacable parts, we get to see where rubber is. We have one source of rubber, 2 squares northWEST of Seattle (as opposed to coal, which is 2 squares northEAST). There is very little rubber in the world, so I documented all the occurences I saw, and I don't think I missed any:

India: 1 JUST outside our border, by Ganges. This is India's only rubber, if we can somehow take that tile, India will be stopped stone-cold in the modern age, with Riflemen and Cavalry only for the rest of their existence.

Rome: 1 by Cumae

Russia: They have NO RUBBER. They weren't even CLOSE to any BEFORE the war. The ONLY site of rubber in that whole stinking jungle in No Man's land was claimed by...

Greece: 1 in the Greek colony city of New Athens, 1 in the homeland by Delphi

France: 2 occurences, 1 by Rheims, and 1 by Avignon.

Japan: Again, NO RUBBER. I think. It's possible I missed a Japanese rubber site.

England: 1 by London.

I go poking around our luxury export deals, and notice that we're not getting nearly as much from them as we should be. I renegotiate all of our Ivory/Wine deals, and get roughly twice as much as we were getting. I use this and our Commie money to underwrite raising the sci rate back to 60%, meaning Electronics comes in 7 turns.

-Memphis, one turn away from its cathedral, riots. No war weariness.

-I blow lots of money upgrading rifles to infantry and cannons to artillery. I haven't done it all yet, I'm trying to at least keep our treasury within sight of 1000.

1360

-Battlefield Medicine completed in Washington

-With little to no pollution popping up (and replaceable parts domestic workers cleaning flatland pollution up in 2 TURNS), I extend the "Neighborhood Watch" to the entire east coast of America. I also engage in little building exercises, like building forts to mark every non-claimed square in our homeland. Workers who don't fit along our east coast are fortified in the Fortress of Solitude (the fort in the forest square by Seattle).

-I think it was on this turn that I dealt Communism to Rome and India, not getting a whole lot for it. But the dividends that Communism pays to the smart dealer doesn't come from the gold per turn you get for the tech, it's the tech/production advantage you possess over your Communist rivals.

-Indianapolis founded on the far side of the Saltpeter colony, claiming some plains rather than desert. As to how we're going to connect Indy to the rest of America...I'm still working on that. Its temple should be rushed at first convenience, which may be hard to find since we're spending lots of money upgrading our rifles and cannons. Probably when the communism deal with Greece ends, we'll have enough gpt to underwrite it.

1365

-Cathy wants to end this war. I decline. We're still winning, and we don't have a scratch of war weariness on us.

-However, Cathy seems to have gotten her grubby hands on Nationalism, and her rifles are giving our cavalry fits, or I would have captured Riga on this turn.

-Curious as to how France is doing, I investigate New Lahore (only 20g), and see that they've gone Commie on us. I investigate another 20g city in India, and they are still in Democracy. At which point I slap my forehead because we could tell that by looking at New Dehli...it's been rioting presumably from war weariness almost my whole turn.

1370
-Those steenking pinko French snatch Riga out from under my nose. :aargh:

-Our largest outbreak of pollution yet, three squares. The people expand the palace in commemoration. :goodjob:

-With Riga captured and the Indians razing whatever Russian city was north of Indy, there is a big gap, one I intend to fill. I rush settlers in Vitebsk and Kui, with one to claim somehow that floodplain wheat that is outside of French Riga's radius, and the other to make a contiguous border with Indianapolis.

1375

-I am JUST unable to take the Russian city just northeast of Kursk, only a 2 hp regular rifle left to contend with and the French en masse outside the city. They'll probably get that one, too.

-The settlers are done and already out in the field with some infantry for escort. Use them to plug the gaps and get a contiguous border out to Indianapolis.

Overall:

-I expanded our eastern galleon fleet over the course of my turn, as the "to Russia" queue outside Miami was getting rather long. We might want to send a few domestic workers to Russia to improve it, though while the four Russian workers now work as well as domestic ones did before replacable parts, they've sitll got their work cut out for them and there's nothing to do in the homeland except for waiting for pollution to happen.

-Cavalry sucks against rifles. Even conscripts were giving me fits. Still no war weariness, and still about 10 turns of war left before we really have the option of peace.

-I built a lot of hospitals over the course of my turn. Also a few courthouses and colosseums, banks when I could, but mostly hospitals and military.

-The rail net in English America is complete, and all the tiles that can be improved, are. The workers are sitting in a stack just outside San Diego.

-The rail net in Russian America has connected all the cities we currently control except for Indianapolis, and is now going eastward into the gap to connect future American cities and Indy.

-There's a lot of upgrading to do in the homeland, I only upgraded a few of the border rifles to infantry, and one or two cannons to artillery. We just don't have the money to upgrade it all at once and I placed a greater emphasis on upgrading overseas.

-If New Dehli ever stops rioting, then India has gone Communist.

The file:

The foreign advisor screen, 1375. War lines and military alliances shown, everything else turned off.

:eek: :eek:
I don't think I have EVER seen such a tangeled war message before, esp this early in a game.
:shottie: :shottie: :shottie:

Good job, Carbon. No weariness all the way through 30 turns of Russian warfare? That's amazing, we must not be taking many casualties. Next item on domestic agenda, police stations (to further stall weariness).

Spending gold to investigate, JUST for the purpose of seeing which govt somebody is in, is a needless expenditure. :smoke: You can do that at any time for free, just click F3 and select the opponent you wish to view. Even lacking spies, you can always see what their current govt is here. I think you right click to change which opponent you're viewing.

Russia has had Nationalism since the beginning of MY turn, in 1200. I was fighting their rifles with knights. Remember? :)


Good luck, Schnarrd. :)


- Sirian

Regarding Investigation:

I knew there had to be a better way. 20 g is two rifles into two infantry, but given the circumstances inconsequential in the long run.

Regarding the police:

I actually built quite a few police stations. I knew that there was some sort of building that I made a bunch of besides hospitals, I just couldn't remember what it was. I probably didn't make as many as I am thinking I did, but there were definitely more there when I left than when I arrived.

Regarding future strategy:

The Russians are toast, they just don't know it yet. They have no rubber, which means the best land units they can build are Cossacks and rifles. And I think we took all their saltpeter, so no more Cossacks unless they finegle some from another civ. Schnarrd will still have war for his whole turn due to me renewing the MPP with France, so make the most of those 10. After that, we should make peace and rally the world to dispense of those Greeks, they are definitely the most serious threat to the American Way now that the Russians are exposed as permanently easy bait for tanks (the only civs that could possibly deal in rubber are their arch-nemesis France and their buddy Greece...and if we take out New Athens and/or Delphi in a Greco-American war, then Greece can't deal in rubber).

Some random notes:

English America needs some more serious attention than I gave it. For starters, what the heck is Apolyton packing culturually to have its borders deformed NOT ONE BIT by the surrounding American cities? If we get into a war with Greece, be sure to take this city. And build some more culture there, our borders are hard pressed by even cultural featherweight England. I think they're building military right now, change this to some sort of culture building, as we can fill that area with military better from the homeland than they can homegrow it.

I found a certain elite caravel on extended goto. I left it on to see what its deal was, and seeing no use for it besides scouting, I parked it outside San Diego.

At the beginning of my turn, Russia was sending three frigate/caravel pairs westward. I managed to sink the frigate of the lead one with that 2/5 hp ironclad, and the rest retreated and were never heard from again. The ironclad parked in town to heal, then went north to bombard coastal towns, with limited success. I've built two more ironclads that are just now entering the area, so seaborne bombardment is an option.

Sea bombardment with ironclads is a waste of time, unless attacking a resource square to pull it offline. All it will do is increase weariness (whether it shows yet or not) so I advise against it unless as part of a combined assault on a city.

Think of it this way: weariness may eventually push us out of the war. If ironclads yipping and yapping at the heels of Russian cities, to no useful end, brings the weariness on sooner, there is actual cost associated with it. Now battleships would be another story, they actually HIT stuff fairly reliably. :)

- Sirian

More on sea bombardment:

Firstly, I did not know that bombing somebody else increased YOUR war weariness. That's a completely new one on me. In this particular case, however, I think that factor is mitigated by a couple of things. The first one being that after the French take that one city northeast of Kursk whose name I forget (I consider it an inevitability, though if they suffer critical failures and do not take it, it should be easy pickings for us), the city that's currently under ironclad bombardment is one of the next most likely targets. The second one is that being parked in its current position allows it to scout for enemy boats and sink them should they appear, bombardment is just something to pass the time before the landlubbers can make it into the area. The third being that a second and third ironclad are coming into the region and the three of them combined could do some serious weakening of the town prior to our artillery moving into range (or in addition to artillery fire once our guns are in range). The fourth being that there has been some limited success in taking out the town's population, it's down to 8 from 9 and I maybe destroyed one of its buildings in the three or four rounds of bombardment that it has sustained.

Now, if we do, for whatever reason, start to experience war-weariness, how long does peace have to last to reset all the whiners to pre-war status? Because I really want to sink my teeth into Greece and/or India and steal their rubber. Heck, we could probably found a quarter-size city by Cleveland expressly for the purpose of stealing that rubber tile. Whatever we do, I don't want India to reach Replacable parts with that tile in their possession, it will make conquering them so much harder than it has to be.

Regarding Charis, lack thereof:

Has he been avoiding this thread? I've seen him toss comments into all of his other active games except this one, which hasn't had any posts in the last 26 hours. I frankly expected him to be all over this after I posted, since all of the potentially weedy decisions he made were actually vindicated in the end. We got Communism and Espionage in time to force ToE to give us Atomic Theory (which saved us a bundle of beakers and got us maybe 10 turns more of Hoover Dam) and Replacable parts (which is one of our target techs to get ASAP). Our MPP actually was renegotiable at the end of his turn, we weren't in any danger of getting a blemish on our rep from our conflicting deals. It wasn't Communism for 222 gold, but it's not half as bleak as we were predicting two days ago.

Regarding dots:

"Blue Dot" Seattle has certainly turned out to be much more than a means to link Chicago to Philadelphia, hasn't it? Too bad it wasn't in range of Iron, as well. Iron Works would have been SO cool to build in this game.

Charis does have a lot of games running, he may not have had time today to comment on them all. I'm sure it's no big deal.

Seattle was never intended to be just a linkage city. ALL land near the Palace and FP will, by definition, be productive land, because it's low corruption. Even all desert or all sea or (nearly) all hills/mountains. Look at Dulles. Sure, it's got no shield production, but look at all that trade. :) Much more valuable than any of the colonies above England -- why? Lack of corruption.

I'm not all surprised by our strong manufacturing base. That's exactly what I had in mind from the moment I saw "that perfect spot" for Chicago. Never, in my Civ3 time, have I seen a better location for an FP, nor gotten one online sooner without a leader to rush it.


- Sirian

War weariness:

It functions on a per-opponent basis. The game keeps track of how much you attack each particular opponent. The penalty is more (perhaps double) if attacking on their soil, and less (perhaps half) if attacking in self-defense on your soil.

This total accumulates REGARDLESS of whether or not you see the effects yet. Just that Suffrage, and police stations, increase your "allowed" total before unhappy faces start to appear. War weariness is a civ-wide function, rather like corruption under communism, it's divided evenly among all your cities on a % basis.

Yet the moment you make peace with, or eliminate, the rival you have been attacking, weariness with that civ drops to zero. If that's the only civ you've been attacking, your whole weariness evaoprates just like that.

I believe that weariness is reduced per turn during peace, something along the lines of how draft and poprush "memory" fades away. Chances are, unless you stop immediately upon sighting weariness, or else not attack much more, that the "memory" will not be entirely erased for quite some time, and if you return to war with that particular civ, your weariness immediately shoots back up to reflect whatever amount has not yet had time to fade away. In some cases, this means right back to instant massive unhappiness, which may collapse the government if even one city is allowed to go into civil disorder.

On the other hand, if you make peace with the civ you've been attacking, then turn around and attack a different civ, that civ starts at zero on the scale, and you can attack them for a while before any weariness sets in. In this regard, it can be a GOOD thing to have two or three fronts. Attack one, take some cities, get some concessions in the peace and STOP before weariness reaches high levels, let that one "cool off" and attack someone else, rotating through the opponents.

That's one more reason to save Rome. We can beat them up while waiting for weariness to fade against Russia, India, and anybody else we start mixing it up with. Democracy simply cannot stomach endless war against the same opponent. Armor blitzes may wipe out an enemy entirely before weariness reaches a point of taking the government down, but slower assaults have to be taken in chunks, and the 20 turns of peace has to be observed at least most of the time. (The penalties for betrayals, frankly, are unrealistically low, but that's a separate thing for me to be ranting about :) ).

It is my intention to remain in Democracy the rest of the game, so... if weariness is built up with low-result attacks, like ironclads bombarding cities all on their own, it will mean having to stop the war sooner. Weariness means unhappy people, which means lower score. We don't want lower score. :nono: I'll definitely growl and fuss :spank: if anybody actually lets our government collapse. :) We should not keep attacking once weariness sets in unless we can wipe out that civ before it gets too rough, and we're nowhere near that capability yet. Consider that our "variant limitation": we watch the polls, and if the people get too cranky, we stop the war -- if we can. Must... SCORE... :lol:


- Sirian

OMG, I cant believe that I just read this entire thread straight through. Charis, your posts definately aren't too long, all the posts had good lessons for civ 3 players, and are quite entertaining. The only thing that would make these posts any better would be more screenshots, but that would be mostly for the benefit of the readers, and not the players, so it is quite understandable why there aren't more. Sirian, CC, Charis, my hat is off to you for your discussions of not only strategy, but also of game mechanics in an open forum where many other players can benefit from your knowledge

Hi guys!! Pardon my recent reticence, I saw the "We got Atomic" post and let out a big woohoo in my office. My secretary happened to be walking by and gave me a very ood look :blush:

I started a reply then got sucked into a long meeting and never hit submit i guess :confused:

At to that a certain FedEx disk arriving, an in-town conference and birthday in the family, this is a crushing week, I can only hope I'm not missing my turn in one or more games!!

In any case, very glad to hear the reports. Thanks for not reversing the debacle decision by changing the research path. Now we can Hooverize :) I wish I knew the 'numbers' on how weariness works, I hope we can 'take the rubber'/coal and then stop. Greece needs to come down a notch for sure, just not sure when/how just yet :P

:hammer:
Charis

PS to shdwlord -- read the whole thread???? wow! :) that's endurance! Thanks for the feedback, there is some really good stuff here, I'm glad it's reaching a few more ears :lol:

I haven't seen him post in any threads after the sixth, and it's been three days and change since then. Darest we go forward and skip him this turn?

Schnarrd, the clock's ticking. Waiting on you, here, been more than 48 hours. If you don't at least check back in within 12 from this post, I'm going to go ahead and take my turn. (Similar deal with RBD6). So what's going on?

- Sirian

Nonetheless, I will refuse the Presidency of the United States if I have to be in the Oval Office prior to Tuesday. I've got a project that needs to be done by midnight Monday, and I may have to milk that till the last few hours. So if the game turns to me tomorrow or Monday, just go for it, whoever my successor happens to be (edited: forgot the turn order, somehow thought that Charis followed me in turn order :blush: )

OK, I got it.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Yep. Had about enough of her lip. ;)

1375AD, Inherited Turn: I changed a few build orders in our homeland, mostly to police stations or other infrastructure, to get all of that out of the way.

I saw that Carbon's military position was a bit behind that of the French: they would indeed capture Riga, that much was certain. I kind of expected them to take some more, too, as they had all kinds of cav sittin around, and we only had a few units.

So why was Carbon's position on the weak side here? One word: mobility. We lacked it. Where were the engineers??? Well, that became priority number one. Must have engineers (workers) along for the ride if you want to get much of anywhere with modern warfare. Not in the first wave, surely -- you're just concerned about getting a foothold -- but the ability to move troops around at will is one of the human player's greatest strengths compared to the AI. It's where thought really takes off compared to programmed routines.

The actual military execution looked solid, though in coming up short on the attack just a bit at Riga, he did pave the way for Joanie to walk in there. So it goes.

1385AD: After healing, consolidating, and moving more units forward (and still waiting for workers to arrive), I found myself in position to attack a Russian city. Oops. Like Carbon's last turn, I found I just didn't have enough units, came up short. Joanie had take FOUR Russian cities in two turns (yikes) and this was my last best hope to seize the initiative again. I failed miserably. :( Not only that, but my losses and my determined attack have carried us into war weariness. President Sirian's popularity in the polls is slipping.

1390: LOL! India goes before France in the turn order, and they RAZED the city I had been attacking instead of capturing it, opening a big fat hole where I might plop down a couple of settlers. :lol: Thanks, G.

1390-1415AD: Sirian sits back and lets India, France, and Japan do almost all the fighting, while he rushes settlers out of our colonies, ferries workers and troops into the area, constructs a human wall of units across the continent, and takes complete control of the area, settling one spot after another after another in all the holes Ghandi is leaving as he razes 2/3rds of the cities his jumbos manage to defeat. All these new rails I'm building are fully guarded end to end by our units, so the AI's are forced to run through mountains or go around large walls of units. As such, their reinforcements... uh, well, they never did arrive. :) On the other hand, mine did: a few more cav, some workers, mostly more infantry.

1400AD: Hoover Dam.

1405AD: Intelligence Agency:
"Caesar is not pleased."
"We now have an agent in Athens."
"We now have an agent in Kyoto."
"Ghandi is not pleased."
"We now have an agent in Paris."

1410: India signs alliance with Greece against Rome. Greek troops show up on our border and I order them out. OUT OUT OUT. Get out.

"Ghandi is not pleased."
"We now have an agent in London."
"Caesar is not pleased."

Sheesh. Well, that's enough cash spent on that. Not bad on the success rate, 50% (I've certainly seen worse), and nobody declared war on us over the failures. Please don't try any cutesy espionage tricks and blow our agents' cover. They are most useful keeping track of what units a civ has at any given point, via F3. (Haha! Try not to chuckle too hard at the English).

1415AD: India finally takes, and razes, Minsk, opening up a HUGE gap just below Moscow. India then takes Moscow (wow, losing about 8 jumbos in the attack, oucher) but I finally have a military opening, and enough rails to consolidate ALL of our forces. I just need to get a worker onto this one square between Santa Fe and Sverdlovsk...

1420AD: Blitz against Sverdlovsk, rolling across rails still hot from the hammering of spikes. We lose two cavs, capture the city (up on a hill, too). More cav rushed in to quell the resistance.

1425AD: India spends more jumbos, this time attacking St. Pete, without taking it. France then takes its turn spending cavs. THERE IS AN OPEN PATH OF 3 MOVEMENT FROM SVERDLOVSK. I blitz, taking St. Pete and two more cities. Cathy is down to one city and one spankin new village (which got the name of Minsk, heh).

I had to disassemble my blockade wall completely. It had consisted of over three dozen units by the end, mostly infantry, but eight or nine cav, too. All but one of our cavs in the theater participated directly in the attack, and I used all our artillery to bombard the city on the northeast coast, yet we still lost one cav up there (it had a lot of defenders). Just not quite enough workers or cavalry on hand to finish it off in one turn, but I came much closer than I expected. Our newly captured cities are filled with the bits and pieces that once formed my blockade. That blockade (more than just a wall, I was guarding our rails religiously and also stick units into any hole I could find to jam up the roads) slowed down the AI's and allowed me to grab most of the land, half from settling gaps, the rest from conquests. Russia now looks QUITE different than it did ten turns ago.

It is almost gone. :whipped:

"Threatening the United States is a distinctly BAD idea." :lol:

There's still plenty to do. Almost the whole world has already picked Rome as the next meal. I've set up a military blockade across our land, so nobody is going to get to Rome except by ship, but the Greek ships are already arriving. The question is, are we going to defend Rome, or join in the feeding frenzy? That's going to be up to the next set of leaders.

As soon as Cathy is eliminated, we can stop starving any Russian citizens. Once a civ is eliminated, its people won't flip nor apply any pressure. They pretty much just become neutral.

Our war weariness not only began, but got worse. If not for me bringing three new luxuries online (we now have all 8, counting the 2 joanie is selling us) we'd have been in pretty rough shape. Yet I COULD NOT get out of it, as we are in a vital alliance. From here on out, be extremely wary of any more alliances. 20 turns is a long long time these days, to be stuck in an agreement.


There is one more settler in Minneapolis, if you find an opening for it. I grabbed tons of land up there, quite aggressively, jamming the cities a bit in many cases, and I even rushed a few temples in locations I felt had been fully secured. We STILL need more units in the theater, but what he have now is at least as much of a fighting force as what the AI's have sent. Despite all my spending, I managed to hand off with more cash than was handed off to me, so I'll call that "fiscally responsible" colonial spending and duck out before there's any major investigation. ;)

Diplomatic deals could stand a fresh look. IF, for example the next player decides he absolutely is not going to attack India on his turn, Ghandi has a wad of cash burning a hole in his pocket and would be glad to unload some for gems. On the other hand, such a deal takes attacking India off the table, so weigh carefully. India is currently trying to walk units through our land to get to Rome -- as is Greece.

STRONG garrisons must be kept in the newly captured Russian cities until unrest is quelled and Cathy is eliminated. Then things need to be redistributed a bit, as I pulled ALL the spares from everywhere for my final operation, leaving our rear exposed.

I also managed to build coastal forts in most of our mainland coastal cities -- reduces risk of losing ancient temples/libraries or costly factories to some sad stack of frigates/ironclads doing the endless mindless bombardment thing.

Oh yeah, and one more thing: I vetoed the neighborhood watch. I know, Charis, that you are currently enamored with the concept, but in the absence of any hint of credible threat, it's just make-work, with me unable to find workers easily for pollution duty or minor irrigation/mining tweaks, or to send to Russia. So the workers are now back in a stack above Seattle.

Good luck mopping up, and with whatever ends up coming next on our agenda.


- Sirian

Enquiring minds want to know. ;)

What a job taking out all that Russian land. :goodjob: I'll have to download and take a look later once I'm done with this project.

If we don't go for Rome next, then we should be going for Greece. The only problem with Greece right now is that they are in all these alliances. If we could get France to go along with us, that would be one thing, but fighting Greece might pull India and Japan against us. While I don't fear them, that's not going to be fun. I would probably prefer declaring war on Rome as a non-affiliated third party and just laying waste to it before Greece or Japan can grab the juicy bits. My advice would be to go for the rubber, first. If we can secure the rubber (which in Rome would mean taking and holding the greater Cumae area, whether or not we choose to raze the city), then we can set ourselves up for matchups like tanks on cavalry or rifles in the modern age instead of infantry or even mech infantry. There's so much bad blood out there between the civs, I can't see more than two or three civs surviving till 2050 (If we don't win by Domination first).

Also, did you try to steal India's rubber by planting a city near their patch? I'd just as soon we had that rubber instead of them.

Wow. Actually that word is far too light-duty, but it will have to do. Word to the AI's... don't BLINK on Sirian's turn!!

:hammer:

Let's see now... I'm up here. I'm up in 5, on deck in Infantry (zed, TNX for hopping in!), and glad you got that other turn in.
And of course, up in 7. :rolleyes:

I'll be hitting them in this order: 3 then 5, then either infantry (if up) or 7, then the other. Likely two posts tonight. It's been a good weekend ;) Kept up on the posts, but that's about it. Looks like no Night Elves tonight!

If anyone has any last min thoughts or tips for any of the above
game, post 'em up, i'll continue to check the forums as I go.

:hammer:
Charis

The world was not the same. Not even close. This new world was scarcely even
recognizable compared to the one just a few years back, when the previous
line from the Charis Deaconate, the infamous "Deacon's Debacle". It was,
(glory be), not *utterly* a debacle, and somehow some good was wrought
out of it. The mighty and wonderful Hoover Dam belonged to the Americans,
the nation was strong, and the ungodly Russian nation is virtually
destroyed. The arrogant Greeks might not see much more of life as
a superpower either. The new Deacon took a moment to pause and look at the
situation. The first survey alone was enough to make him gasp in wonder.
The small towns which had gotten to be cities, were now in fact metropolises.
San Franciso, the one an early Charis had stretched too far to found, was huge,
as was Kansas City, that "spot in the gap". The Romans now instead of pikemen
had riflemen wandering our borders. New York was building a (cough) courthouse
despite being precisely adjacent to the capitol, and was running an entertainer
even though happiness was about 13-2 positive. At first he dismissed this as
pure :smoke: but then thought maybe the last city planner had a reason. (Go from
74 net shields to 75 which would actually be helpful?) He chose not to
use his once-overused 'veto' pen. (Does it effect war weariness? No, that's
police stations, right?) He was not amused by the town's name change to
"fool's Coal town", but then he saw the coal had mystically MOVED away from it.
OTOH he was just delighted to see Indianapolis founded as a "Salt Peter"
memorial city. The city name was taken from the Deacon's hometown, so he
was touched. The colonies were well, although the 'stench' of Apolyton
there was apalling. What else... India's rubber near Cleveland was *BEGGING*
to be taken. (Make it so, says Deacon to his advisors!! :hammer: Seatle with
BOTH rubber and coal (wow) has only one defender. No it's not at risk, but
is the AI licking it's chops there? New Athens has rubber (not for long I'm
thinking) (Delphi-Greece and Izumo-Japan have it too, and Rheims-France)

India and French (and Russia) are in Communism. Japan in Monarch, and somehow
The Japanese defense force includes 19 pikes and 7 spears :P (well, some
Muskets and rifles too). Alas, Greeks is Modern but ours in stronger.

We're only left at war with Russia, so they will be eliminated. Greece is
only at war with Rome. If that dragged on and they went communist, it would
be nice. Techwise, where are we? About five *techs* away from tanks. Even
at 4 turns each, that's 20 turns. Seems time might be ripe for peace for
20 years for us, if possible (once Cathy is annihilated of course). If Greece
can leave democracy in that time, even better. I'm not too concerned even with
them taking Rome or razing it. If their weariness goes through the roof while
we're in peace, and war re-emerges when WE get tanks, they're so toast it's
not funny. Will keep an eye out for rubber denial though. I think having
a settler or three 'on call' might be wise.

I love the 'wall' of units on the Southern US Border! One last check...
where is the USS Charis?? He sees an elite Caravel off the coast of
San Diego, and his heart is gladened.

1425 AD (0) - Just a few minor production changes to make some settlers
for resource snagging.

Between turns the Japanese send and ENDLESS stream of cavalry up toward
Cathy's last city. I mean, almost 10 mins of gallop watching ending up with
27 cav! Since I don't have 3 hrs for this turn, I turn 'automate' friends off.

LMAO! The *English* land a PIKE and a WARRIOR next to Novgorod! What a
feeding frenzy!

Oh my, speaking of feeding frenzies... France and India sign a military
alliance against Rome. That seals their fate, there is NO WAY we're
going to join them. No real need to 'join in' per se, as opposed to an
independent going chomp, chomp. Let's see what happens, right now all AI's
are wasting tremendous time sending morsels over sea routes to get to
them. They may amass great weariness and take forever with lousy results.
(This was almost instantly followed by France declaring war vs Romans)
Hmmm... but we do have an MPP with France. If Rome fires a shot we're in.
No min turns left on it, consideration given to cancelling out of that...

1430 AD (1) - Indeed, the New York waste is down to 1 shield. In the meantime
it grew by one, and net production is 76 shields/turn. Washintgon's is 68.
If the latter gives NY one square with mine, a more 'useful' 66 and '80'
shields occurs. We do that. (80 means 1 cav/turn, not per 2 turns)

The people are so delighted Deacon is back in command they add onto the palace!
The New settler hangs in Cleveland but notes India is lucky we have no square
not right next to Cleveland where we could found a new city and steal the
rubber!

Hmmm... where did Minsk go? It must have gone POOF! First part of the turn
Mil net ALWAYS reaches Novgorod, but it does complete fully through Kiev
and gets cav within strike range. Well, almost 8-\ We can get to the
hill but not take Novgorod. I move a unit in the path of the 27 Japanese
cavs to try to insure WE take the city, not them. The only other accessible
square to Novgorod has the English pikeman on it!

1435 AD (2) - Between turns the Japanese Equine regiments all go BACK out
of the Novgorod area. (I would hate to be on receiving end of where they go)
And well... Greece is ready to take it to Rome via ship. Well over a dozen
zoom by in the naval lanes. The English Warrior strikes at something? My
goodness what is that? Greece and India sign a mil alliance vs Russia.
(Darn piranha) Make no mistake, when we go against Greece, if we don't go
in with India in our pocket, those two are teaming up. Greece then declares
war on the Russians (ya, get more weary, go into Anarcy!) Phoenix and
New Bombay is remembered now and through rest of turn, but it was forgotten
on the first turn. 8-\

LMAO!! "New Lahore" overthrows it oppressors and joins us! Why??
Fool's Coal town baby and my rushed library! :hammer:

Bombardment of Novgorod does a good job on defenders (and destroys
the Library). Two elite cav take the city. No Great Leaders, but...

"We have destroyed the Russians, sir." (Thereby losing our Fur and Spice,
huh?) Our MPP with France is over. (hmm, ok, no need to figure out 'how'
to get out) We find ourselves now utterly at peace. Blissful, quiet,
wonderous peace! :hammer: Ah, we lost our spicey fur deal simply from
expiration with France. Do we want to lose THEM as strong allies, with Greece
and India buddy buddy? Nope. (Our advisor looks angry and points out Joan
has betrayed our 'friends' the Russians???) For furs alone she wants 99 gpt.
Cough, sputter... no reallY, what? Well that's out. I sign a straight
RoP then instead, to bond 20 turns of peace with her. (Extra nice since
we have a full manual-blockade of our territory.) Question is, do we do
same with India? Well, I trade our excess gems to him instead. He won't
offer gpt, just his full treasury of 326 gold (what a bargain for him :()

England is likewise at peace, Greece, India, France, Japan are all fighting
Rome. We take ex-russian cities off starvation diets...

1440 AD (3) - A Japanese Army is seen in motion. India wants to see us, for
an Embargo vs the Romans. No thanks. Refining is learned, Steel is next,
in four turns still running a +201 surplus :P

1445 AD (4) - Japan and Greece have signed an MPP. 8-\ (No surprise)
Hmm, I note an oil between Bryansk and Oakland, is it ours/secure? Neither!
And France might expand boundaries onto it soon. Sounds like a good use of
the Minneaonapolis settler. We found on a river, next to the oil, the
great city of Exxon. Deacon replenishes the settler. Having one on hand is
too nice, he thinks. New Coal Town is founded this turn as well :hammer:

1450 AD (5) - Not a single Roman city has fallen yet. Greece's "attack" so far
is naval bombardment by Galleons! :lol: We have a settler/inf/cav/art team
in place RIGHT next to the Roman rubber. If things go south for Rome,
that rubber should be ours, not anyone elses. There are backup units in place
near it, a scout on a hill, and Deacon forms a "Northern Neighborhood Watch"
program, blocking all access on the Norther Border of America. (Cancel as
needed, cough) There's a small boatload also offshore around Rome's rubber
city. Rome is far too busy and weak to ask us to move. A pair of privateers
take out an Indian Frigate. One dies, the other becomes elite.

1455 AD (6) - MMOT. Norther border now 'closed', no leaks.
(A few temples are commissioned in the new lands, to fill in border 'gaps' or
to exert pressure in key resource areas)

1460 AD (7) - We may be at peace, but unit production continues. War is
coming, we'll get ready now and still run a huge surplus.
The French want an audience... They want to trade a territory map.
But of course, sweet Joan! You know who your friend is!
Steel is done, next up, Combustion (then Mass Production then... Motors ;p)

1465 AD (8) - What seems to be an 'invasion' fleet from Greece steams past
Novgorod toward Rome this turn. Two ironclad escorts and several troop ships.

1470 AD (9) - Finally a battle ON Roman soil. Tis the French, outside
Pompeii and rubberville. If they move any closer we're plop an infantry smack
on TOP of the rubber.

1475 AD (10) - India has an armada of about 8 troop ships going up our west
coast toward Rome.

For next leader (Carbon)...
- Combustion arrives next turn.
- Switch any ironclads in production to destroyers. Upgrade galleons to
transports next time they're in a harbor city.
- If you like to soak in the moves of the other AI's and have the extra many
mins to spare, by all means turn back on "Animate Friendly" and/or Enemy.
- Enjoy/prolong the peace and quiet build up until Tanks (not far from now)
- Good luck!

Charis

This is from Schnarrd at Civilization Fanatics. I haven't been able to
access the website since last Monday or Teusday, and I was wondering if
the website has been down for that long or if something's screwy with my
connection. I've finished my turn in Benevolent King (it's been
finished for a while) but I just haven't been able to access CivFanatics
to post. Anyway, I found your website and I just want to know if
CivFanatics has been up.

- Schnarrd

Since Carbon is out until Tues, we'll let Schnarrd jump in here after Charis if he wants to. I hope he can get his problem fixed, but I've offered to relay for the time being.


As for what to do next, Greece is too much of logistical headache, they are probably the one civ we don't want to actually try to assault next. Just too far away. We could go into a cold war with them, though, attacking all their assets in No Man's Land, but they don't have many. We'd need to do some consolidating of our new gains before we'd want to piss off India, France or Japan, as they have huge armies in the Russian theater. (That WOULD leave their rears exposed, in a Cy-like "sacrifice these cities to go raze their capital" campaign, but: WE... MUST... SCORE... !!! So deliberately sacrificing all the land we just gained would not be at the top of my options list. :)

Whatever Charis picks (or the game, on his turn, picks for us) we'll do. I'm definitely glad I island-hopped Rome two turns ago, in favor of attacking Russia. I KNEW that was the best move, but even I am a wee bit surprised at how quickly Russia fell. (Once Japan and India got onboard, well, no AI can stand up to four strong civs bullrushing it. Never ever seen one hold out, alone, against that kind of force. A player might, but not an AI).

- Sirian

RIP Russia (sometimes known as "Zululand" when Sirian gets inattentive ;) ). And to think that ALL this came about because Catherine was too damn lazy to research Printing Press herself. PRINTING PRESS! :mwaha:

If we must be attacking Rome, cancel the RoP FIRST. That's why Caesar isn't annoyed at us, we're allowed to be there. Unless Sirian or Charis did something about it, we still have a RoP in force from my first turn the last time I played (I nixed the MPP, but I waved the RoP through again for another 20, which ran out at the end of Sirian's reign and can be cancelled at any time w/o tarnishing our good name).

Charis, you didn't mention any other sources of oil besides the one at Exxon, did we have any mainland oil in our southern plains? What about the worldwide distribution of oil, are there any civs about to find themselves lacking it?

And true, Greece doesn't have much in the way of No Man's Land assets...except a rubber. Any Greco-American conflict situations should place pushing the Greeks out of New Athens (and then Delphi) as a moderate to urgent priority right behind crippling their industrial base. And pushing them out of Apolyton for being such rubes. :mad:

Uh, er... no wonder I hadn't seen oil before. I thought I had just not been paying attention, but it came with refining. We have not one but TWO mainland sources if I recall. They're both RIGHT next to the Rome border, but on our side. KC and Miami - connected, and with a half-dozen units on the KC to protect it. (Opening up map now to see the rest...)

None for Rome or India. One for France at Besacon. Just one for Japan at Sapparo near New Lyons. We own the ex-Russia supply at Exxon, and actually Japan has another in Russia, at Grozny. None in our colonies, England has one at York. Greece??
Doesn't look like they have any!! :lol:

:hammer:
Charis

PS I suppose RoP still in progress in Rome. Wouldn't attack them or found on their land with it in place.

Inattentive? Psht. :p Charis knows what I was referring to. :lol:

By the by, final verdict on the "pricey saltpeter deal" with Japan: winning move. :goodjob: We got our money's worth and then some.

- Sirian

Well, here I am. I'm not quite sure what's wrong with my network settings, but I just haven't been able to access a bunch of websites (this one included :mad: ). Right now I'm posting from a library computer and I'm contacting my server to see if I can find out what's going on (luckily my email isn't down). Until then, I guess I'll just post through Sirian if he's willing (Sirian, I haven't seen your email yet, so I'll wait to read that before I find out the details). Sorry for the inconvenience to you guys.

Since Carbon is up in RBD4, and possibly other games, we'll slip Schnarrd in here now. I've sent him the file and he's "got it", results should probably come in by the time Carbon is ready to go here anyway. :)

- Sirian

Here's the relay from Schnarrd:

OK, I managed to do five turns, but no more, as I just have too much to
do with trying to figure out what's wrong with my internet (still trying
to get through to Netlinks, my server) and other miscellaneous things.
Really too bad, as I just started researching motorized transport (done
in 4 turns), and I really wanted to be the first one to see tanks roll
off the assembly line, but so it goes. At this point, I think we could
pretty much attack anyone and roll right over them, but might as well
wait for tanks to make it really easy. :) My turns were uninspired, as
all I really did was pump out more troops (I set a couple cities to
wealth, as I think we have enough troops until tanks). I also did my
usual renegotiations, but did not renegotiate with the Romans or
Indians, as I think one of those civs should be next. Anyway, I really
wish I could finish my turns (I'm just getting to the good part!) but
here's the game:


- Schnarrd

Ack. I wrote up a very nice turn-by-turn report only to find I had used too many smilies. :aargh3: You'll just have to live with the short version.

The vultures are literally circling Rome. Our Neighborhood watch can prevent them from effectively waging a ground-based war on Rome, but it won't prevent Rome from being destroyed in the long run. If it's inevitable, we might as well join the fray ourselves and take all the juicy bits and leave India and Greece with the gristle.

My first five turns: Waiting for tanks. I terminated the RoP with Rome and let our troops there teleport automagically back to our side. Wines and 150 gpt to Joan for spice and furs. Japan demands espionage from us. I tell him that he's out of his gourd. He doesn't declare war. Motorized Trasnportation is discovered, tank production begins. War declared on Rome.

If you need to blink, do so now.

My second five turns:

Hispalis captured
Neapolis captured
Brundisium captured
Rome razed
Cumae razed, Little Rock founded in its place
Olympia founded in Rome's place
Pompeii razed
Ravenna razed
Veii captured
Hunt Valley founded across the river from Ravenna's ruins
Springfield founded on the rubble of Pompeii
Byzantium captured

The new Roman capital is Antium. Rome has three cities besides Antium left. We can polish off the Romans in two turns.

The downside? I was not very economical, we lost a lot of units that we shouldn't have lost, and war-weariness is starting to hit us. Almost all of Russia went into disorder on my next-to-last turn (but most russian cities run so much surplus food that I was able to hire enough entertainers to put them on WLTPD and still have them growing) On the last turn, New York rioted. All its taxment turned into Entertainers.

Greece went Communist on our last turn, Rome went Communist just before we attacked.

Many cities are building airports.

I guess I got a little more than just "the juicy bits" I can't believe we ate the whole thing (almost)!!

While the Northern Neighborhood Watch predictably broke up with war, I was able to leave the Southern one intact, so no sharks could steal Roman cities from under our noses.

If we choose to have peace with Rome rather than conquer them, they're willing to give us everything except their capital for peace. Though, like I said, we only have 2 more turns left before it's over. I'll let the next chief decide.

Tanks are great fun. I wish I had more than 5 turns playing with them :rolleyes:

(edit) I forgot about Byzantium. I captured that one, too.

Carbon, I paste my entire message into wordpad, and save it as a file, with every turn report, THEN hit submit. Of course, I save everything I write. Never know when I might want to refer back to it -- only about 1% of stuff I save ever gets looked at again, but it's worth it for that option. (Hard drives got really really big somewhere in there).

Avoid frustration. Save a copy before you press submit -- at least temporarily.


- Sirian

I typically do so, too, but in this case I had a screenshot on my clipboard and I didn't want to have to open Civ3 again and retake it. However, I ended up not posting that shot anyhow since I had to retype the post. Damn semaphores! :mad:

I've sent the file to Schnarrd, who is still having DNS problems. He's going to take the rest of his turn, then I'll take my turn. So collectively, "we've got it".

- Sirian

Woohoo!!!! [party]

Now time to celebrate with the rest of my turn! :cool:

Welcome back to connectivity.

Thanks for letting me have the first turns with the tanks. :tank: I love those things.

Come and get it [party]

Ya I grabbed it earlier tonight. I haven't installed yet, though, awaiting a unified decision throughout our series of games.

My vote is to patch (though I'm not in this one... :) )

OK, haven't taken all of my turns yet and I think I'm going to have to wait until tomorrow to finish them. However, just as a little teaser, no less than 8 Indian cities have been captured / razed during my turns so far.

India???

I think someone definitely switched the names of the "Infantry" game (nary a real war) and the "Builder" (one of the most bloodthirsty I've seen in a while)

Well that IS a teaser anyway, look forward to the report...

:D
Charis

Hey don't blame us! Cathy started it. :lol:

Remember our restrictions regarding war weariness, though. If it climbs, we must seek peace, and honor the full deal.

- Sirian

This was emailed to Sirian during the forum downtime:

After the term of Carbon the Conquerer, the people of America, caught up in a warlike fervor, sought a president to properly prosecute the war in Rome and to cleanse the world of unwashed Romans. To this end, they elected S C Hawk, who ran on the platform of all out war. Ironically, S C had run against Carbon in the previous election, but was defeated because his platform was too violent. Now finally having a chance to command the American tanks in the Roman war, S C gleefully turned to the war on Rome. Virconium and Lugdunum were immediately captured, with Antium just barely holding out under the massive American onslaught and Lutetia awaiting reinforcements of extra tank divisions. Itching for a piece of the Roman pie, the French land 4 divisions of cavalry near Antium, only to have it snatched under their nose the next turn, along with the last Roman city of Lutetia. The Romans are destroyed.

“But that was hardly anything, and we have ridiculous amounts of tanks just sitting there,” S C growled. “I ran on the platform of all out war, and all out war is what I’m going to get!”

“But sir,” S C’s domestic advisor protested, “our nation is a builder nation. We should consolidate our gains in the Roman lands.”

But S C was infected with a kind of bludlust, hungering for more conquest (it would be revealed in later years that as a child he was fed raw cow meat, which permanently blackened (or reddened, if you prefer) his disposition. Things went downhill from there). He sent an emmisary to Ghandi demanding all his cities, for in his words, “ The American people wish to avoid unnecessary bloodshed.” The emmisary came back to Washington with his brain cavity filled with vegetarian curry. A message was dispatched to the Indians: You choose unwisely.

Immediately after the Americans received word of the war with India, the American war machine was geared into action. New tanks rolled off the assembly lines and in Russia divisions of cavalry that were active during the Russian war were brought out of retirement. In the southern border, the “neighborhood watch” was transformed into a mobile, impenetrable wall of infantry that moved with American front. In later years, some said that this “iron curtain” tactic would have been better used in the Russian territories, but why they said this is uncertain. The might of the American military was poised to fall upon the Indian cities like a ton of bricks upon a surprised chicken.

Aside: If you wish to blink, do so now.

The American gains on the first turn of the war on India: New Delhi razed, Ganges captured, New Madras razed, Moscow razed, New Calcutta razed, New Bangalore razed. The Indian “fleet” all but destroyed.

Second turn: Dacca captured, Pune razed, Hyderabad razed.

Third turn: Calcutta captured, Kolhapur captured, Punjab captured, Yakutsk captured.

Total number of Indian cities captured / razed: Thirteen.

There was much individual heroism during these three turns, but none so marked as that of the 14th infantry division stationed in Russia near New Lahore. Being conscripts out of New Bombay, the 14th was inexperienced in the ways of war, but determined to fight until the death. The 14th survived no less than 3 attacks in one by Indian Jumbos, taking heavy losses each time, but each time persevering and killing the smelly pachyderms. By the end of the attacks, they were some of the nation’s most elite troops. After surviving an attack by an Indian longbowman, it became clear why: they were being led by a great leader, general Washington. As soon as Washington’s prowess was known, he created an infantry army and led this army to glorious battle in Russia, wreaking havoc among the Indian troops.

Despite all the heroism in the war against India, the American people grew tired of S C’s bloodlust, eventually calling for immediate impeachment. As S C was dragged out of office, he shouted, “End the war soon, or you’ll share my fate!”

Miscellaneous notes:

Well, I did manage to get my tank fix.

Early in my turn a coal source near Seattle was lost, so I hope it didn’t reappear in AI territory.

I think war weariness is mounting, so the war should be finished soon.

I played my turns without the patch, but since we have consensus that the RBD games should be patched, the next leader’s turns should be played with the patch.

On my last turn, we finished researching Radio and I was faced with the decision of what to research next. Fission would give us Manhattan and the UN, Rocketry our special unit, the F-15, Recycling would be one step closer to modern armor, while Computers would give us SETI, research labs, and mechanized infantry. I chose Computers, for our army would be unstoppable with mech. inf. and research labs wouldn’t hurt either. Also, none of the AI civs are a danger to get the UN, and I think one of the other AI’s would have to also have flight for us to get a golden age out of F-15’s. However, the next leader can change the research goals if he so desires without a loss of any beakers.

Since we now have a victorious army, Boston is building the Heroic Epic, to be finished in two turns. My question is, do we even want to build the military academy, and if so, where? In my experience, armies are most useful before cavalry, since after, it is more useful to have the units separate.

The next ruler might want to build some more settlers to fill up some of the empty space. I’ve already settled some of the spots where I razed cities, but not all of them.

Finally, I have heavy garrisons of expendible troops in the captured cities, since in the patch it says that a certain amount of troops will prevent any culture flips, and we have lots of extra troops.

Good luck, Sirian.

empty post

Sorry, empty post

I've got two great before and after pictures but I can't seem to figure out how to post them.

If it's a jpg you can just attach it as you would a save file.

While in the game I hit "printscreen" but I can't seem to paste the screen in anything but paint, which uses bitmaps.

I think that MS Paint allows you to save as a JPEG. I personally don't use paint, since for some reason it has stopped allowing me to do that. I use a program called Dadaware Embellish (http://www.dadaware.com) which is a fully functional graphics program from a defunct company, though a bit on the out-of-date side. It's not photoshop, but it gets the job done.

Yes, I use Image Expert (which I got with our digital camera.) It'll load the bmps and save them as jpgs. Or, I can paste directly there instead of into Paint.

Don't ask me how we got into a war with England (long story, and it wasn't of my choosing). The English fleet attacked and sank our ironclad, but THEY COULD NOT DEFEAT THE USS CHARIS!!!

Having won a final glorious battle, the old caravel was finally decommissioned and put in a museum. A new, modern, sleek steel vessel has taken up the name. Here, you see the elite USS Charis leading our task force on the annihilation of the English fleet.

HA!!!

I knew it could do it!!

:hammer: :jump: :hammer:

Tis a brilliant admiral indeed who can see the worth of the USS Charis, make sure it finds a permanent home in Deacon's Beacon, and recommissions a new elite battle cruiser!! The Deacon will be most pleased to hear this excellent report! It was precisely for the war with Britain (which he knew would someday come) that he made sure the USS Charis was not sitting idle in dock.

Charis

Aye, 'twas a most fine ship, indeed.

Here's what the English saw on their way to the bottom of the sea:

:fish: :fish: :fish: :fish: :fish:

:lol:

- Sirian

After the previous warmongering Administration, President Sirian was elected on the promise "to end the war swiftly, and bring us to a new era of most glorious and lasting peace."

Inherited Turn: not much to do. A little tinkering here or there, a couple of combats in Russia-America I cleaned up. Sent a note to Ghandi: "We want peace. Please talk to us."

1580AD: Ghandi refuses to talk. We capture more of his cities. General Lee himself led the cavalry charge at the last Indian colony in Russian lands. (Great Leader, used to make a second army). Sent a note to Ghandi: "We want peace. Please talk to us."

1585AD: We need cash for rushing courthouses and temples in captured Indian lands, which are close enough to Chicago to be productive. Science dropped to zero for the time being. Ghandi refuses to talk. We capture the heart of India, including his four best cities. Sent a note to Ghandi: "We want peace. Please talk to us."

1590AD: Sent a note to Ghandi: "We want peace. Please talk to us." Ghandi refuses to talk. We capture the rest of his cities, save one. President Sirian shaking his head. The fools. We'd have GIVEN them peace if they would only have just TALKED to us.

1595AD: India defeated.

1600AD: WALL TO WALL TO WALL "We Love President Sirian" celebrations all across America! The USA goes into an orgy, finally being at peace after centuries of endless warfare. A tremendous baby boom gets under way. Scientific research resumes, and American workers are hard at their jobs, reconstructing India-America.

President Sirian dials up all four major powers and GIVES them free luxuires or rubber. "We want peace! Join us in this time of brotherhood and good will. Be our friends for all time!"

1605AD: Japanese launch sneak attack on America AT PEARL HARBOR! When Americans retaliate against these scoundrels, the morons in England declare war on us! (They had a mutual protection pact).

President Sirian is definitely not pleased. :rocket3: :nono: :ar15:

Massive airlift of defensive troops to the English colonies undertaken. Infantry conscripted at every Russian-American colony, to bolster our sadly underprepared defenses. General Lee directs American defenses at Batum, while General Washington defends Oakland.

America signs mutual protection pact with Greece.

1610AD: Exxon captured by the Japanese! HORDES of Japanese cavalry repelled by the armies of generals Lee and Washington!

Greece declares war on Japan, then England declares war on Greece. France declares war on Japan, then England declares war on France. World War is now in full swing. Japanese cavalry taking an absolute blood bath from all three Allies. Japanese army, which had exposed itself to capture a worker :rolleyes: (guess that hasn't been fixed yet) is then slaughtered by American cavalry. Japanese started with 70 cavalry, now down to 40. France captures Exxon and Apollonia from the Japanese, who just captured them from America and Greece, respectively. Arrgh.

The USS Charis and one ironclad are ambushed. Ironclad sinks, then English ships attacking the Charis all sink.

Two transports full of American tanks land at the English colonies. England's colonies captured. (Which ones? ALL of them.)

1615AD: Appolonia switches hands three more times. France regains control of it at the end of the action. Japanese cavalry getting slaughtered some more, and the Americans haven't even seen action yet this turn.

Two transports full of American tanks land at the Russian colonies. Japanese colonies captured. (Which ones? ALL of them.)

The Charis is decommissioned and mothballed permanently, but there is a brand new USS Charis, which is slaughtering English ships left and right, leading a whole task force. The entire English navy within range of American colonial shores is obliterated.

1620AD: President Sirian orders attack on Japan. Sado and New Osaka captured. General Sherman Himself leads the final assault on New Osaka (second great leader on Sirian's turn). Japanese presence now completely expelled from the Russian theater. 13 Japanese cavalry left, and those must be off somewhere else, fighting French and Greeks in the south.

Emperor of Japan says, "Oh look, Schnarrd and Sirian just annihilated India in about seven turns. They have as many tanks as we have cavalry. They just made a deal to give us free wines! LET'S GO ATTACK THEM!!!" :smoke: :rolleyes:

Polls show that the American people are MOST WEARY OF WAR. Yet with the mutual protection pact in place, we cannot exit this war for quite some time. President Sirian sets in motion a plan to hunker down, consolidate, defend our gains and our cities, but halt all territorial acquisitions and aggressions. The American People want no more war! And he agrees. Our goal is peaceful building.

Roads on the edge of England bombed, pillaged, and disrupted. Roads and rails south of New Osaka likewise bombed, and American forces dig in. We shall attack no more, but if anybody wants some, COME AND GET IT.

1625AD: Computers discovered. Research Labs now under construction all across America. Boston is building the Pentagon. Chicago has nearly competed the SETI project. President Sirian has promised America the Cure for Cancer, and research is heading full steam toward Genetics! (Screw the environment, the UN is useless with diplo off the table, and glorious American F-15's can wait a little longer. We want the Happiness Wonder).


If we continue to attack, war weariness will take down our government. It's already eating into our scoring, I punished both England and Japan by taking over everything but their cores. We are already nearing the threshold of oppressive weariness, as I did a whole lot of attacking. We COULD jump to Monarchy and conquer the world, but that was never the intent for this game, nor did I expect us to reach such a dominant position so quickly. Maybe I should not have taken us to Russia! That seems to have been a little TOO effective. :)

Charis... it's in your hands now.


- Sirian

Here's the final major battle of my administration, where General Sherman made his appearance.

Here it is. "OH MY GOD WHAT HAPPENED TO THE ZULUS!" :)

OMG!! THEY KILLED KENNY!!! :eek:

Never, ever blink, when the rbd crew has tanks!! :hammer:

Emperor of Japan says, "Oh look, Schnarrd and Sirian just annihilated India in about seven turns. They have as many tanks as we have cavalry. They just made a deal to give us free wines! LET'S GO ATTACK THEM!!!"

Unbe-freakin-lievable...

Massive airlift of defensive troops to the English colonies undertaken.

The Deacon just about has a stroke...

Two transports full of American tanks land at the English colonies. England's colonies captured. (Which ones? ALL of them.)

He's feeling much better...

> The USS Charis and one ironclad are ambushed. Ironclad sinks,
> then English ships attacking the Charis all sink.

:hammer:

> The Charis is decommissioned and mothballed permanently, but
> there is a brand new USS Charis, which is slaughtering English
> ships left and right, leading a whole task force. The entire
> English navy within range of American colonial shores is obliterated

He's feeling MUCH, MUCH better! :love:

Deacon is feeling the love... can he bring about peace in this frightful new world order?? Can we live long enough to cure cancer??

We shall see...

Charis

PS Got it. My ISP goes down tonight at midnight. It's "supposed" to be back up tomorrow at noon. If you don't hear from me til Tuesday, you know why ;p

Wow, we conquered Rome, India, and the English and Japanese colonies, all in the space of 20 turns. Impressive. :goodjob:

I can't believe that the Japanese DECLARED war right after the world witnessed the might of the all-powerful American tanks. What was he smoking, cause I want some. :smoke:

I really hope that we make peace soon (and this is coming from me, no less!) because if not, war weariness will topple our government. It might not be that bad, because we'll just have to conquer the rest of the world :rolleyes: but this game is already getting away from its builder theme. (Woops, just read the rest of Sirian's post and he said exactly the same thing. :o Oh well . . .)

The Deacon awoke in his bed one night with a terrible start. The colonies.
The colonies were under attack. The USS Charis was under fire. No one knew
how on earth he knew these things, but by the end of the next day, it was
confirmed they were true. He made his way to Washington to pick up the reigns.
"Confounded partnerships! The Greeks of all people??!!" This news was not kindly
received by his ears. Stuck in war for years to come. Yet the people were sick
of it, they could take no more. Was there any way he could hold on, hold out,
and get us back to what we're best at... building??

He looked down South... "Now THAT is a Neighborhood watch!!" and smiled.
He looked at the diplomacy board. Wow, so many chairs empty.
A census of the military... 556 units (cough). That includes 235 infantry (!! wow,

can we sent them to "Infantry?!") England has about 40 units total (!)
France about 150. Greece 170 (+workers). Those two in Communism. Japan 140.
The latter still have (cough) catapults. I think the rbd5 French could take 'em!
We have 4 armies??? :P He notes they can grow bigger in 4 turns with Pentagon.

1625 AD (0) - Looks over cities (hey is that a new aqueduct graphic?). All is
in good shape. Washington hits 10K culture in 7 turns. Deacon, never one to
spare expense to rush Temples, does so in England border towns of Carlisle,
New Kyoto and Gloucester.

1630 AD (1) - A bit of global warming in the middle of nowhere. MPP has 15 left.
More temple rushing, filling in culture borders - Kolapur, Charleston.
Mech Inf must be recent, we can make but have none. His only battles that
round are at sea, and pillaging England's salt and roads.

1635 AD (2) - English cav goes after... our worker! More global warming at
our city near nowhere. (How frequent does this get?) More pillagig.

1640 AD (3) - We've got SO many units, when our core cities finish research
lab, they go on wealth (about 12 gpt per city). This also lets us shave a
point off miniturization time.

1645 AD (4) - Boston completes the Pentagon (4 units/army now)
Massive sadness breaks out in Bangalore. And about 6-7 other cities, and
uh oh, it's coming home to roost... Phoenix. At least 6 new starving cities.

1650 AD (5) - SETI program finished in Chicago. It's now kicking out 99 beakers
per turn, and starting a research lab (will take 3 turns). WTLK days are
ending right and left.

Laguardia starts an airport, fulfilling an ancient prophecy! :hammer:

In defending our border vs England... it occurs to me... the second way to
remove ALL war weariness involved in war vs a civ is... to eliminate that
civ. With as few units as England has, I get we could wipe them out in one
turn before the war even expires. However, my course is set for now, peace,
not conquest. Should the war drag on or the next leader choose, England
could be ours. I didn't even bother with naval battles this turn or last.
They're not carrying troops, at least not to ours shores. And the Greeks and
the English are belting it out. :P

1655 AD (6) - MMOW.
1660 AD (7) - Miniturization comes in, we start Genetics. We're getting about
two pollution squares per turn now, easily fixed with 4 workers each.
The Greeks have been attacking Kozuke with cavs, weakening it. Hmmmm, it has
two dyes in it, can we snatch it? Set a placeholder for both Cure for Cancer
(in Boston, at the Mass. General Hospital actually! :hammer: ) and Longevity
(hmm, no placeholder available besides Palace, we're too productive!).
Oh! Offshore Platform, that's what else miniturization brings. Our
Coastal cities start that one. In the process I note we have only a single
Pikeman defending some large cities like Cincinnati. If the AI were smarter
I would be worried and/or start a big upgrade campaign.

We load a Mech Infantry into each of the four standing armies.

1665 AD (8) - On the Japanese turn, seeing the Longbowmen stream out of
Kozuke to attack the cav was too comical, with my Army and nine tanks
stationed adjacent to their city. Alas, a good idea, but a turn late.
On the French turn, their cav do overtake the conscript riflemen. 8-\
The English get a lucky kill of our cav unit outside Bristol. There will be
retalaltion for this attack. In fact, a man-of-war goes streaming past
the Carrier/Battleship task group Charis, thumbing their nose at us...
The last words they ever saw alive, in semaphore, spelled out...
"You have chosen unwisely." (see attached image)

The weariness is really getting intense. In one minor taken-over city,
they revolt and tear down the walls.

We encircle and pillage the supply lines to the three 'border' English cities.
They will answer for the cavalry slaying next turn...

*TIP*?? Is this new?? If you have a road down and hit just 'r', not
just shift-R, you'll build a railroad. I could have sworn shift-R was
required in 1.16 ?

1670 AD (9) - Four or five pollutions this turn, ouch. I don't know whether
to be proud or sad to report that this did not tax our *massive* worker
population even slightly.

The USS Charis battlegroup is ready for the ironclad counterattack from
the weak English, who have now given up on their so called 'man of war'
The gun launch from the side of the Battleship is an awesome spectable to
behold.

On land, the Brits fair no better. Their three border towns are razed. :eek:
Little Rock, Kursk, Kohlapur, Neapolis are unhappy with this final aggression.

1675 AD (10) - The Japanese beg for an end to the war. Deacon asks them for
free wine "You know, the kind we offered your nation just before you stabbed
us in the back!!" "Huh?? We have no wine." "Come back when you do, you
fool!"

Last minute diplomacy. Joanie offers her treasury and a hefty 92 gpt for
Combustion, which we could use, so it's taken at 115 gpt. May as well offer
it to Greece too then - he'll give 400 gold and 65 gpt.

Six more turns to our MPP.

In retrospect, I think we may (??) have been better off just obliterating
England this turn. I could be posting "OMG What happened to the Zulus?!"
right now, and the anti-England weariness would be gone due to, well,
there being no England. We have enough tanks and mech to do it, facing
cavs, conscript rifles and longbowmen. With only six turns left, we can
ride it out until peace.

Good luck,
Charis

(PS Hmm... seems my ISP did ok, all I had to do was change DNS settings and tonight I'm up)

If we conquer the English and the Japanese, the game would end in Domination. If you three partners all vote to "just end it", I would go along, but my own vote would be that I at least want to see some modern warfare. I've not seen any in a long time, as I've gotten a good enough handle on industrial warfare that the AI's don't live to see the modern era any more. I REALLY wanted peace, but heh, one turn after I finish the last war, the AI launches a big sneak attack (and actually took one of my cities! A rare event indeed) and they have an MPP that pulls a second civ against us. And then what was I supposed to do? I attacked as much as I did to reduce our frontage. Japanese and English were all along the eastern shore of Russia, and England all over our colonies north of their lands. After taking over all those newer cities, it got us down to having bona fide fronts, with safe back lines and a lot less to worry about.

I laughed pretty hard when you razed those English cities. :lol: The AI does some bonehead moves, doesn't it? :)

Good show, and good job restraining yourself within the constrictions of our "stop the aggressive attacks when the polls show weariness" restriction.

:hammer: :hammer: :hammer:


- Sirian

I'm not sure which way to vote. I'm tempted just to win by Domination. With all these belligerent civs still around right now, I don't think we'll be able to stay out of war for more than 20 years at a time. And even with such a tremendous lead in tech over the remaning AIs, there is so much time remaining that one of them will learn fission and eventually finish the Manhattan Project (nukes are something that we definitely don't want laying around in the hands of Communist warmongers). For my upcoming turn, I'll definitely do my best to keep the peace, but If I manage to escape from this war only to have another one start up, somebody's cities are going to be razed. I won't take the territory, but a lesson needs to be taught (if it wasn't already abundantly clear) that we are not the civ to be picking on in this game.

I have no problem in holding off our wrath. Holding back with 520 military units vs a country with 40 defenders is about as hard as it gets, from a pure restraint standpoint. :rolleyes:

So I would prefer to stick with the original intent of the game, to be a builder nation, content to coexist but ready to punish those who would defile us. Once peace re-emerges, we need to avoid future MPPs or alliances that would drag us in, and adopt a "don't screw with me, I'm trying to build over here!!!!" policy. No need to start wars, but by-cracky, we'll end one that starts. If someone declares war on my shift, I'm going to raze three of his cities on our border, and if his capitol is within strike, raze it. Then I'll ask him if he wants peace. If not he'll go the way of the Indians this game, but it'll be on his head!! :hammer:

Nukes???? Come get some!! I've never seen a nuke, if their little puny civs want some, I'll show 'em a nuke! They will the phrase "punitive nuclear counterstrike", and they won't like it!

As a historical reflection, I do think it was the demolition of the Russian empire that set us down this track of 'effective' domination -- that was too much. Although Sirian was the chief general, at the time I was fully supporting a strike against Russia.
(Of course I was thinking, raze a city or two, plop down a city on their saltpeter source, and end the war)
If we had stayed with "Our glorious building contiguous homeland and our small colony in the new world", and taken arms to punish and to balance aggressors, not to expand, we would be in a better situation to "end the game as a builder"
Might even get to try out an SDI system.

Can we build it??? Yes we can!!

Charis

I'm sort of in the same boat with Carbon. As much as I'd like to keep to the original intent of the game, I don't think that we'll be able to stay out of war for more than 20 turns at a time, and if someone attacks me, well :soldier: :tank: :rocket: . I'd like to at least get to modern armor, and I've never seen radar artillery or nukes (or stealth planes, for that matter), but if we're attacked on my turn, the civ that attacked us will be gone by the time the game rolls around to the next player.

By the way, on the subject of modern warfare, I have never actually seen a full-blown modern war. Most of my games are decided with cavalry, and occasionally with tanks. Therefore, I had the idea of starting a succession game where no offensive war could be waged before the modern era. If we are attacked, we can wage war on our soil, but we cannot assault cities before the modern era. I might not start this until some of the current SG's have ended, as most everyone is overloaded with SG's already ;) , but I just wanted to gauge the interest ahead of time.

Sounds a bit like my Swiss concept, though I was planning to never have an offensive war. :)

Well, I haven't seen your post about a Swiss SG (or at least I don't remember it ;)), but this game is designed specifically for the purpose of modern warfare (all victory conditions but domination and conquest will be disabled :soldier: ).

By the way, is it Carbon's turn? I haven't seen any "got it," and everyone in this succession game has replied since Charis posted.

This turn was mostly housecleaning. I only played 5, but it FELT like I had played about 30.

1680
- Japan and France sign a peace treaty. The fools.

1685
- Japan declares war on France.
- I decide that merely razing all those English border cities was not enough, so as our units retreat back to our own territory, they pillage every improvement on their way back through No Man's Land. If anyone wants to settle there, they'll have to do it from scratch. Almost immediately, a greek settler-Hoplite(!!) pair lands.

1690
- We need a centralized location to keep all of our spare units. So I put all of the mech infantry we made during my turn and placed them in Chicago, all our spare tanks went to Boston, and all our artillery went to Washington. If the future rulers could please keep all new units not needed for garrison in the same place, war will go much quicker.
- Genetics discovered, Ecology started. If we don't get some pollution reducers up and soon, global warming will eat our land over the next 365 years. Washington starts Longevity, Boston switches from Palace to Cure for Cancer.
- Whoever is fortifying workers in random spots, PLEASE STOP THIS. I un-fortify every worker I can find and put them to work on filling in rails in Rome. until that's completed.

1695

- Oil discovered under Jaipur
- MMMMMMMOW
- I unfortified all of our fortified naval units and put them on sentry (Shift-Y) instead (if this hadn't already been done).

1700

- Rail fill in Rome is complete, most workers are sent south to irrigate our corrupt Indian cities (no point mining a 1g/1s town).

-I unfortify a pikeman in calcutta and I have him wander around the French rail net so we can see how much work has been done to it since we last got their territory map. We can actually send units over rails from Russia to America through France's Rail net, so as long as we have this ROP, we won't need to airlift to Russia and we can take our spare worker corps to chop down the Russian jungle and have them back to clean pollution the next turn.

Should post sometime tomorrow.

OK, I just wrote a writeup, but for some reason it got erased while I was posting. :( Let's see if I can get it right this time:

After the term of Carbon, the people of America elected the fast food mogul Schnarrd, owner of Schnarrenbergers (the historical irony of this name was never realized by the American public), to be the next president. Schnarrd promised a term of peaceful prosperity, where the only wars would be those fought against the infernal Russian jungles. For the most part, Schnarrd delivered on his campaign promises, although he had to wait a turn before ending the war against England and Japan, for he didn't want to offend the Greek people. Schnarrd was eventually impeached over allegations of embezzlement, a claim which shouldn't have surprised anybody, considering Schnarrd's major was in Creative Accounting. Schnarrd's advisors later released a statement saying that Schnarrd had been planning on using the money to take that extra class of Bribery 101.

Not much happened. This game is ours for the taking as soon as we get the urge for some blood. :soldier: By the way, if you take a look at the histograph where I made peace with everyone, you'll notice a *huge* increase in score, as war weariness was an oppressive %50.

During my turn, I built a lot of stuff. Also grabbed up some of the holes left by the pummeling Japan was taking from Greece and France. I cleaned up a lot of worker projects, most of them can soon be parked, and I built a lot of pollution-reduction gadgets.

See, pollution no longer works like it did in Civ2. The pollution on the ground has NOTHING to do with global warming now. Warming is affected by how many units of pollution are being churned out in the cities. Once you build mass transit and recycle centers in all the big cities, pollution drops to 2 or 3 per city and global warming slows way down (none happened on my ten turns).

Japan and England have MPP now. Not much real estate changed hands between the AI's on this turn. England lost a couple more cities and then made peace with Greece.

I also modernized our army a bit, and micromanaged cities so that they would not overgrow (with Longevity) and then starve.

Charis, you're up. If you don't think you can squeeze it in, let us know and it will fall back to Carbon.

Our score is well over 4000 now, btw. :D


- Sirian

The Deacon was leaving for, well, a Deacon's retreat with his flock,
but was called to lead the nation yet again. He tried to do so with
speed (but not haste) and efficiency.

1770 AD (0) - Our advisor says "Build more cities??" 121 aren't enought????
Our mil advisor says we need more gold to build a more glorious army??
595 units aren't enough? Surely now tis the advisors, not the Deacon,
smoking the weed... :smoke:
I don't think culture win is enabled, but we're at 90,000.

Hehe, the great 'razed' zone still persists :p

1772 AD (1) - Dulles FINALLY gets assigned to build an airport! :hammer:

1774 AD (2) - Oil dries up somewhere and shows up at Chicago. Go figure.

1776 AD (3) - France and Japan sign a peace treaty. Then Toku comes up and says
"Our peace treaty is about to expire. Our people would be very sorrowful if
that happened." (Darn right they would!!!) Peace works... for now.

BTW, an auspicious year, thinks the Deacon... He hatches just a little plan
to celebrate independence, and to get back at an old insult.

1778 AD (4) - The little celebration starts. "Apolyton Crusher 1", "Apolyton
Crusher 2", ... through 4 are founded to flip Apolyton. It's stench is no
longer palatable in the AMERICAN colonies!!!! :hammer:


1780 AD (5) - We rush built 5 temples in the Apolyton Crusher cities.

1782 AD (6) - England and France sign a peace treaty. Who else would settle in
the razed zone?? Greece.

1786 AD (8) - More Subtle pressure on Greece. An army of Mech Inf units
plops itself right smack outside of Apolyton. Six libraries are rushed :P

1790 AD (10) - Two grasslands to plains due to warming.
A little more rushing, before Deacon is dragged out of office, late for his
retreat. There is a settler sitting outside of San Diego in case Apo Crusher 7
is needed after a border collapse. Now that the number of units is up to 650,
no mas! Turned the troop crankers to wealth to support build rushing!

Good luck (Carbon)
Charis

Carbon says he's out until Tuesday, so Schnarrd, you're up now. :)

OK, I've got it, but I've already posted in the Benevolent thread that I probably won't be able to get to any civ games before tomorrow or even Monday (we'll see how things work out).

Aaaargh!!! :mad: Game crashed in the middle of a really long turn. I don't have the time to replay all of that, so I guess I'll finish tomorrow. :( At least I got to Benevolent . . .

Carbon's probably glad for the reprieve anyway. :lol: He's got two long, war-filled turns to take in Infantry and RBD4.

Well, game froze again, mid-turn, so I guess I'll have to postpone posting once again. :o By the way, as a teaser, think about what possibly could be prolonging my turns so much. :enlighten

:nuke: :nuke: :nuke:

If I have to fight the French on a third consecutive turn, I'm going to just start tossing the nukes around...and if there are no nukes to toss around, You've got a campaign pledge from me to build the Manhattan Project and MAKE some.

I mean, JEEZ, I smash the French in one spot, and like a bubble in wallpaper, they just pop up somewhere else. It's like I'm living in the Twilight Zone.

PLEASE use the save function!!! Ctrl-S

Losing a big chunk of game once is understandable.
Repeated losses are totally avoidable... C-S, C-S, C-S, C-S

While you're at it... when is the last time you backed up
your hard drive? (That long???? Go do it... NOW!)

Good luck in any case,
:D
Charis

Um, before I get started, I'd like to respond to Charis' previous post: :spank:

Now that that is out of the way (and yes, I did save frequently after my game froze the second time! ;) ), let's get down to some serious Civ 3 action!

Schnarrd came to the presidency of America on a platform of peaceful building. He did not wish for any violence to occur, and was looking forward to a peaceful term, for many of his ancestors (bovine and otherwise) had the misfortune to be in office during times of war.

At first, he seemed well on his way to the peaceful term he had hoped for. Lasers were discovered and scientists set their sights on a technology called "robotics," for Schnarrd wanted to see what he called "radar artillery" in action (some cried that robotics should be researched in 2001 when Hal could be built, but no one knew what was meant by this). However, two turns into his term, an insolent ambassador marched up to the US embassy and, of all weedy things they could do, declared war! This ambassador was from the nation of *drum roll* . . .

France!

Schnarrd at first could not believe that the French would do such a thing. The US had mech. infantry, modern armor, and an immense air force, while the French had cavalry and two (count 'em) tanks. The French were getting over 100 gold per turn for luxuries. They even had a ROP! Then Schnarrd was hit by an overwhelming feeling of deja vu that eventually drove him completely insane. Driven by his madness, he vowed that every last French city would be captured or razed within 4 turns. (How is this possible, you say? Very easily. :D )

Turn 1: Avignon is the first city captured in the glorious was against France. The shells from the modern armor assaulting the city spell out these words on the buildings of Avignon: You choose unwisely. Other captured cities: Rheims, Lyons, Bordeaux, Bayonne, Poitiers, Riga, Kharkov, Astrakhan, Tblisi, Exxon, Bizen, and Sapporo. A great leader, Jackson, also emerges from the fray and is used to rush the Manhatten Project in Savannah.

Turn 2: Schnarrd takes a turn to rest his army and upgrade a few tanks to modern armor. Only three cities are captured. He also sees that the American populace is unhappy with his recent acquisitions and increases his luxury expenditures by twenty percent.

Turn 3: The people are very unhappy with the war on France as riots break out all across the country. To pacify the people, Schnarrd increases luxury expenditures by another ten percent. Schnarrd also vows that next turn shall be the last of the war. Captured cities: Paris, Grenoble, Orleans, Tours, Marseilles, Chartres, Echigo, New Tours, New Marseilles, New Rheims, Sapporo, Echizen, Rennes. During this fighting, another leader arises from the fray: US Grant. He is stationed in Washington until further notice. Finally, the "Neighborhood Watch" is disbanded to prevent the unruly French citizens from rioting.

Turn 4: Dihon, Brest, New Paris, Matsoyama, and Kasuke are captured, while two obscure cities in Greece are razed. The smelly, backstabbing French are destroyed!!!!

So happy are the citizens of America after the end of the war that celebrations are held all over the country. During this time, scientists discover the secrets of Robotics, and Schnarrd is so enamored with Radar Artillery that he upgrades almost the entire American artillery corps to Radar Artillery. :eek: After this scandal of unnecessary military spending, Schnarrd is promptly voted out of office.

Miscellaneous notes:

If cultural victory were enabled, we would have enough culture to win (110474). We are extremely close to domination victory, however if the next ruler does not desire to end the game, simply do not rush the temples in former France. Finally, Grant is awaiting further orders in Washington.

Good luck, Carbon!

Edit: Hmm, just realized that the attachment function doesn't work. Now that I've read the other RBD threads, it looks like I need to go to Sirian's website. Will do! :hammer:

You'll have to email the file to me for me to be able to upload it.

Hmm, it seems the AI's are just begging for us to end it, so let's go ahead and finish it off. If we start another builder game at some point, we'll disable domination and leave only conquest still on the table. Carbon, do you want to finish the game off? Or pass that task to somebody else?

- Sirian

If all we have to do is rush a few temples and wait 5 turns, then it's not worth the hassle of setting up the save file relay. I know you just went through with your thing on keeping a firm turn order, Sirian, but if it's gonna be done in 10 turns or less, just finish it off on your end. If we still have a ways to go before we really win by Domination, then go ahead and pass it to me.

And Schnarrd, thanks for finishing off the French BEFORE my turn. If I had to fight one more France this week, I probably would have gone for the "final solution": building lots of nukes to vaporize France, then vaporizing whoever was stupid enough to declare war on me for doing it, and that probably would have affected our score somewhere in between all that nuking ;) . If I ever start up another SG, I will handpick the opponents and France will be conspicuously absent, either as the players' civ or as an opponent.

Hey I just came up with a cool new variant idea: I call it "French Fries": huge map, 15 opponents, ALL of them France! Joanie^16!

Here's the roster and turn order:

Sirian
Carbon Copy
Carbon Copy
Carbon Copy
Carbon Copy

I played 30 turns to start:

4000BC: Paris founded! France starts on warrior.

3750BC: Warrior built.

3300BC: Our scouting warrior has met a French scout! We dial up Joanie and she's polite with us!

3200BC: We meet a French warrior. (Same civ? Or different civ? I open up F4 and see no smiling faces. Shift-right-click shows me a list of options that all say "France").

3100BC: We spot Paris.

2850BC: Found another Paris. Must be a couple of French civs near us!

2550BC: Carbon, you're due up for the next 3000 years. Joanie wants to talk to you.


:lol: :lol: :lol: ;)

The French Madness Mod :crazyeyes . All sixteen civs modded to France. The entire map a sea of dainty pink. Bring your own white flag.

Hey! Fighting France is my specialty! I want in! :)

Let the wars on France begin!! Muhahaha

Carbon, I don't think we have enough territory yet that expanding borders around the towns would end the game. We're getting close, and MIGHT be over that limit, but I doubt it. Still England, Greece, and half of Japan left, and the game is notorious about not having enough yet for domination long after you think that you ought to.

So here's the file.

I haven't seen the RBD3 map recently, but take a look at RBD4 just before victory and see how much of the land we controlled. It looked like a heck of a lot more than 2/3 to me...

And Schnarrd, thanks for finishing off the French BEFORE my turn.

My pleasure. ;) Actually, I was pretty disgusted when Joanie declared war. I mean, does she have to be insane in all the RBD succession games? :crazyeyes

1812-1822: Run low science for temple money. Buy temples throughout France as treasury allows above 1000 (not that I NEED the money from Wall St. when I'm making 800 gpt, but I like to think of that last 1000 as "emergency contingency money," something that you don't spend unless there is a clear and present need for it to be spent. Oh yeah, Elizabeth declared war on Japan in 1812, for reasons unfathomable.

1824: My first batch of French temples are completed. Bah, haven't I won yet? Not gonna happen for a while yet. So I conquered Japan to speed things up. Yes, all of it. I save and hit next turn. Oh yeah, we got a GL early on, I just fortified Douglass MacArthur in Washington (I used whatever leader we had earlier to rush the Apollo Program in Washington, just to have it built), no sense in using him for an army, we already had four empty ones in New York.

1826: Cultural border expansion from my second round of French temples + Japan put us over the Domination threshold.

Domination victory in 1826.
Final score: a MASSIVE 6700, blowing out my former highest score (RBD2) by about 1200.
History will remember us as: Lincoln the Magnificent.

Histogram was enjoyable, what I never realized or noticed was how much territory was changing hands between Greece and England and between France and Japan.

Bad news: Greece kept Apolyton for the whole game :mad: We probably could have held out and flipped it eventually, the Apolyton Crushers all expanded borders in 1826.

All that is needed for victory is to hit next turn.

Here's my 1824 autosave, in case you want to try conquering Japan in 1 turn, or if you want to just play along some more without any aggression.

We got almost a thousand bonus points for early finish! :lol:

Good game, guys. We tried to be peaceful builders, but the world pushed us into wars, one after another! (Hmm, sounds almost like real life USA history. :lol: ).

It was all Catherine's fault, too. She's the weedy airhead who repeatedly threatened America and CHOSE UNWISELY. :eek:

Good job with the final wars, guys. Japan conquered in one turn! :rotfl:

So... now what? Do we have enough new games running? :)


- Sirian

The Deacon got news one Sunday morning of the ultimate and final victory of his great Builder nation! :hammer:
The lives of all the valiant men who gave all they had were remembered that services, and prayers lifted for the healing of tensions in this new world order. With the completion of the Apollo program, they would NEED to pull together to move forward as humanity...

-------------------------------------------------

I'll probably replay that last turn and liberate 'Apolyton' !

So... now what? Do we have enough new games running?

Good grief!! I would say so... and yet... I have little doubt we'll see one or two more before long :D

Charis

The pace slowed to a crawl in several games where wars are raging. Oh wait, "several" games? I mean all our older games! :) RBD5's been a whole week on two players. RBD6, I'm not sure what happened. Feast for Jester?? (He seems to be up in several games). 3 and 4 ended with war. Infantry got all worked out of shape and I hammered :hammer: the roster a bit.

RBD8's a big new game, but I don't get to take any turns there. :viking: 9, 10, 11 are all restricted city games. (Um, RBD11 is up to 1255AD already, it could be over next week :lol: ). 12 is another one I can't play in, and 13 hasn't started yet. So I did join two other games being run by other people who invited me to come play. Got to have something to do while 5 and 6 are bogging down. :) I miss my Cuban Cigars. (Wintergreen flavored, that ought to be pungent enough right?) :lol:


- Sirian

Awesome game, guys. Foregone victory, of course, from pretty early. But 6700 points? That's insane.

Lessons learned?

- the power of dots and city placement
- an early, well-positioned FP is *HUGE*
- builder -> war-mongerer conversion can take place in a hurry when pressed
- 8 luxuries rule (I already knew this one, actually)

Others?

Arathorn

Previous reports left out KEY info...

Top Five Cities...
1. Washington :hammer:
2. Boston :hammer:
3. Athens :sniper:
4. Atlanta :hammer:
5. New York :hammer:

Oh Chicago!! We have failed you!!! Deacon weeps for
joy for Boston, New York and our dark horse, Atlanta, and
weeps in pain for Chicago and Baltimore.

I watched the replay... holy cow was 1794 a bad, bad, bad
year for the French! Did they choose unwisely or WHAT?!
Also, I blinked, and missed the poofing of India :P

Great job all!!! :goodjob:

Charis

PS Deacon did take the 'final' save file and crushed Apolyton, and the Greek colonies, and about 4 other 'surrounded' Greek cities in our territory. 6688 final. If the 'real' score was literally 6700, that dropped it?! (Maybe a roundoff number was given?) Well that's my high score game, trouncing rbd2 which was my previous high by a good margin over rbd3 :P (in order those three and the next one, cubans, were victories by Domination, Conquest, Space Race and Diplo.)

Actually, the first time I did it, it was 6699. But I actually hadn't counted on getting a Domination victory BETWEEN turns (or does it ONLY happen between turns? This is only my second Domination victory) so my earliest save was the auto-save from the beginning of 1824. So I had to do it over again for the official one that I posted. Possibly staying in a state of war over the end of the turn lowered happiness by a fair margin (as we did a LOT of offensive action in 1824, but it didn't affect our happiness because we weren't at war at the end of the turn).

Also, you probably didn't notice if you didn't go from the auto-save, but one of the reasons why I was able to seize all of Japan in one turn was because Japan had loosed most of its offensive troops to fight the English (Remember they declared war in 1812?), and were stranded somewhere in the middle of Greece when I attacked, so I had just enough modern armor laying around from defeating France to account for all their homeland defenders that they had left. I actually ignored any units that weren't defending cities...my workers built rails around Japanese riflemen and workers moving from city to city and the modern armor just blew by them while they were frozen in place.

ALL victories come between turns. Even conquest. After you wipe everybody out, you have to click Next Turn for the win to come in. :) Defeats come between turns as well, except for choosing to retire.